New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo to State Economy: 'Drop Dead'

Urges $15 minimum wage on chain restaurants & says, "This is just the beginning. We will not stop until we reach true economic justice."


Getta load of Andrew Cuomo, the governor of the once-great state of New York. For the first time ever, reports Business Insider, a U.S. state "may single out one industry for a big wage hike."

Under a plan approved by New York's Fast Food Wage Board, a $15-per-hour minimum wage would be phased in over three years in New York City and six years across upstate New York, whose economy has long been the American equivalent of East Germany. The mandate would apply to any restaurant chain with 30 or more locations in the state.

Speaking at a rally in Manhattan, Cuomo pledged that he's just gettin' started:

"You cannot live and support a family on $18,000 a year in the state of New York — period….This is just the beginning. We will not stop until we reach true economic justice."

The legal status of the diktat is not immediately clear. Cuomo created this particular board after failing to push a broader minimum wage hike through the legislature. Chains are expected to fight the rules, which single them out for particular treatment. 

Remember that Cuomo is the economic wizard behind Start-Up New York, a program that lures companies to the Empire State with tax breaks and other incentives. Earlier this year, Matt Welch noted that the program spent $28 million in advertising alone while creating "maybe" 76 jobs. Welch also pointed out that Cuomo, after dithering, locked down Yoko Ono's vote by ruling against fracking in upstate, where it might have actually brought some economic vitality. Upstate New York remains one of the great wasted opportunities in the country. It's a phenomenally varied, beautiful, and populated chunk of real estate with more mountains, lakes, rivers, and history than any single state deserves. Yet going back 60 or more years, it's been an economic slide area and nobody seems willing to actually deregulate the place so that it might become the East Coast's answer to the inter-mountain West.

Fucking up New York runs in Cuomo's blood, of course. His father Mario, a legendary three-term governor who helped drive the state into the ground, left "a meager legacy" of debt and unsustainable programs. Cuomo fils entered the governor's mansion in Albany in 2011 amid assertions that he would kneecap unions that were driving up spending, reduce business regulations and red tape, restrain taxes of all sorts, and deliver "jobs, jobs, jobs."

Reality begs to differ. Earlier this month, two reports summarized in The New York Post noted that

The Mercatus Center at George Mason University rankedthe state's economic health at 46th in the nation, barely ahead of Connecticut (47th) and New Jersey (49th).

In particular, the survey cited New York's low cash solvency — barely sufficient cash to cover short-term spending — as well as its long-term liabilities and ability to meet those spending commitments.

At $2,946 per capita, the state's debt load is more than 50 percent higher than the national average, $1,824 per person.

All of which echoes warnings from a host of local fiscal watchdogs.

Meanwhile, the National Association of State Budget Officers reports that New York's general-fund spending is rising by 11.8 percent — highest in the nation. 

Not to worry, dear New Yorkers, not to worry. Andrew Cuomo is pushing for a stupid and ill-conceived tax on fast food via a historic tax on a vilified industry. Never mind that such magical thinking won't work, for the simple reasons that mandating price hikes tends to discourage demand. He will not rest until he has reached "true economic justice." Which, alas, will likely mean everyone being equally poor.

Related: "Mary Poppins Quits: The Rebuttal"

NEXT: Watch Katherine Mangu-Ward Talk Trump, Dadbod, and Ashley Madison's IPO on Kennedy Tonight

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  1. So let it cost NYC jobs. Which is better, companies paying fewer employees more money, or having a lot of poorly paid employees who have to use government programs to make up the difference?

    Thanks to welfare and other programs, we are basically subsidizing companies.

    1. False choice?

    2. Re: JeremyR,

      Having less people work with higher wages means you will have a lot of people with NO WAGE, which guarantees they will go on the dole. On that alone, your whole argumentation is fallacious and thus wrong.

      Now, for your lovely parting gifts... Patty?

      1. In addition, whenever someone pulls out this "We subsidize companies with welfare to their employees" I always reply, "Then by your logic we should get rid of the subsidy, and companies will pay these people more, right? Right?"

        1. Corporations are evil. Where have you been? They enslave workers with low wages and don't allow them to quit or improve their skills and earn higher wages. They traffic poor immigrants and put them in back rooms where they can't possibly interact with the public and improve their language skills either and bar them from leaving the country for home.

          1. Corporations are evil? Hmm...

    3. Oh this is awesome. Last time I saw you, welfare was the excuse to shut down the border to unskilled immigrants. Which is at least a little bit defensible.

      Now we've got to increase the minimum wage so that people with jobs won't qualify for benefits. The people that suddenly are made jobless by this? I'm assuming the plan is to kick them out of the state/country? Because the math won't work otherwise.

      I hope next time you can explain to us why welfare means we need the NSA to spy on everyone, otherwise people will be able to get away with fraud.

      1. Not to mention that a high min wage will *encourage* those people he wants to keep out to try even harder to get in.

        They might not get $15/hr but there'll be a larger demand for people willing to work under the table for a reasonable wage.

        1. And the cost of living will go up, meaning the poverty line will be moved, creating virtually no gain.

    4. So let it cost NYC jobs. Which is better, companies paying fewer employees more money, or having a lot of poorly paid employees who have to use government programs to make up the difference?

      Thanks to welfare and other programs, we are basically subsidizing companies.

      They trollin', we hatin'

      In any case, that's not what you're going to get.

      You're going to get fewer people making the *same* amount of money and having to work harder to get it, along with a ton of people who are now not 'topping off' with 'government money' but are now living completely on the dole.

      In other words - you get to spend *even more* 'government money' on subsidies to non-working 'workers'.

    5. Drive-by troll.

    6. Drive-by troll.

    7. Thanks to welfare and other programs, we are basically subsidizing companies.

      Not really, no. The opposite, in fact. The welfare system creates massive disincentives to work, as someone who is successfully getting all the welfare that they can would have to take a loss to take many low-paying jobs.

      Welfare essentially puts a shadow floor on wages. If I need someone to sweep the floors, and the people who might do it will see $30 - 40K in welfare of various kinds disappear if they take the job, I'm going to have to pay them $30 - 40K in order to fill the position, rather than the lower free market price.

      Welfare benefits continue to outpace the income that most recipients can expect to earn from an entry-level job, and the balance between welfare and work may actually have grown worse in recent years.

      The current welfare system provides such a high level of benefits that it acts as a disincentive for work. Welfare currently pays more than a minimum-wage job in 35 states, even after accounting for the Earned Income Tax Credit, and in 13 states it pays more than $15 per hour.


      How is that subsidizing a company, again?

    8. Thanks to welfare and other programs, we are basically subsidizing companies.


      Seattle's $15 minimum wage law is supposed to lift workers out of poverty and move them off public assistance. But there may be a hitch in the plan.

      Evidence is surfacing that some workers are asking their bosses for fewer hours as their wages rise ? in a bid to keep overall income down so they don't lose public subsidies for things like food, child care and rent.

      Full Life Care, a home nursing nonprofit, told KIRO-TV in Seattle that several workers want to work less.

      "If they cut down their hours to stay on those subsidies because the $15 per hour minimum wage didn't actually help get them out of poverty, all you've done is put a burden on the business and given false hope to a lot of people," said Jason Rantz, host of the Jason Rantz show on 97.3 KIRO-FM.


      2. Wow. That didn't take long.

        But....FAUX NEWS!

    9. No, you're subsidizing people who aren't capable or in a position to provide enough economic value to society to earn what you deem a "living wage".

      Companies are currently helping you out by paying low-skilled workers for some portion of that living wage in exchange for them providing some portion of that economic value. Once you punish companies for doing so, they'll stop and the welfare state will pick up the entire tab instead of a fraction.

      That, or they'll raise prices (local companies can get away with this since their local competitors will be in the same boat), which means that those boosted wages will just buy less. The higher prices go, the better the incentive for people to bail on the city for somewhere less idiotic.

    10. Which is better, companies paying fewer employees more money, or having a lot of poorly paid employees who have to use government programs to make up the difference?

      Clearly it's better to have a lot of unemployed people entirely dependent on government.

    11. Which is better, companies paying fewer employees more money, or having a lot of poorly paid employees who have to use government programs to make up the difference?

      Clearly it's better to have a lot of unemployed people entirely dependent on government.

    12. This has never made sense. At all.

      The company can refuse to hire someone. If paying them a "living wage" would be unprofitable, that's what they would do...and that person would still be consuming the same welfare as before. It's not as if the existence of a welfare state allows companies to pay people less money than in its absence - the economic value of those people's labor is the same no matter fucking what.

      This is one of the most economically ignorant things I have ever heard, and that's saying something. It's just really, really dumb.

    13. It won't cost NYC jobs, their cost of living is high enough that it's probably going to be a 20% raise.

      It's update New York where these raises will amount to 100% that are going to lose jobs.

  2. It sucks to be an unskilled worker in New York.

    1. It sucks to be an unskilled worker in New York.

      Fixed that for you.

      1. It sucks to be an unskilled worker in New York.

        Even better.

        1. That's not true, this is a great place to visit, just don't spend any money here (and avoid the cops)

          1. I wouldn't call anywhere south of Plattsburgh a great place to visit in New York, but then I used to work in Albany and Rochester alot.

        2. New York sucks?

    2. if there were only ways to do something about that.

    3. if there were only ways to do something about that.

  3. "You cannot live and support a family on $18,000 a year in the state of New York ? period."

    You're not supposed to - period.

    "Are you saying that people working low-wage jobs shouldn't have a family? "

    Yes, that is what I'm saying. The "living wage" argument and the "family to support" argument are all canards, red herrings. I can't pay for a high-end BMW with my current salary. That doesn't mean that I'm entitled to a salary that allows me to pay for a high-end BMW.

    1. I keep wondering if the concept you describe is somehow too complicated to understand. But after reading and re-reading it, the answer is no; it is quite simple - don't try to sustain a lifestyle you cannot afford, try to avoid stupid decisions that impact your life negatively, understand that minimum is usually paid to students and most of them get a bit more than that.

      1. My oldest son at the age of 15 started working as a lifeguard for minimum wage. 3 years later, he's now the head lifeguard and earns $12.50 p/h. That what minimum wage is; it's the place you begin to get some experience and build a modest resume. You're not supposed to support a family on an entry level wage.

      2. yeah, some people just are too lazy tou se thier crystal balls and time machines and hey if they cant be bithered to take a full load of college courses while working three jobs thats thier lookout amirite?

          1. Yeah, he just got of ESL classes like a couple new trolls, he just got out earlier.

        1. Look, I was able to work full time an be enrolled full time for my last year of college.

          It wasn't easy, but I didn't want to be stuck in that crap job forever (not to mention they laid me off and sent it to Mumbai after I graduated)

        2. wow, that was pathetic.

        3. You know what we should do? We should punish people who do work hard at minimum wage jobs, gain experience, seek out education, and attempt to better themselves by forcing them to pay more for goods, services and taxes. Oh, wait, never mind. Those people will do what the working and middle classes have been doing for two decades. They'll leave places like NY and move to areas with more affordable housing, less regulation, and greater employment opportunities. Way to hollow out the working class in blue cities, dipshit.

          1. We do punish those people, Mrs. Struthers. We lock them out of jobs by imposing a minimum wage above what their employers would pay for their labor.

        4. What is it about minimum wage that brings the progressives out in droves? Is it their last stand, their Wounded Knee, their final oblivious confrontation with reality? They invariably seem to think they hold the moral heights, so maybe that's why they're so insistent.

          1. They secretly wan't teen, particularly minority teen unemployment at 100%....more folks wanting free shit, more D votes. From their perspective it's win/win.

        5. I'm just spitballing here, but maybe if you're working a shit job that can barely support yourself, you shouldn't have kids? You understand that having kids is entirely predictable and preventable, right?

          1. Well, if you can't avoid abstinance, there's the sodomy. If you can't swing that, there's the condoms and the hormonal treatments. If that fails there's the abortifactants, if all else fails, there are people willing to harvest their unborn organs.

            Come to think of it, it's amazing anyone has any children at all these days.

            1. I read a statistic today that stated there are more abortions than live births among African-American women in NYC. So, there's that.

            1. Oh hey, just like that Wheezer song.

              Wait, no...

            2. You are NOT the father!!!

              *drops beat*

            3. Maury's a fucking boss.

          2. clearly, you are a monster.

    2. Moreover, what's one of the biggest expenses for low-income families? Food, especially fast food.

      What's going to be made more expensive by this wage hike? Food, especially fast food.

      1. "Good. Poor people shouldn't be eating fast food."

        -Every progressive

      2. "Good. Poor people shouldn't be eating fast food."

        -Every progressive

    3. ""Are you saying that people working low-wage jobs shouldn't have a family? ""

      They don't need to work in New York City.

      That's the issue here - these idiots think someone should be able to live anywhere in the country even if they have no discernible skills. Sorry - maybe NYC isn't for you if you can't pay the rent. Move to Kansas where your money will go about 3 times as far as it will in New York City, otherwise don't expect me to cry for you when you choose to live somewhere expensive that you can't afford.

    4. In New York, you're not supposed to own a vehicle. Bad example.

    5. I quickly learned a lesson in my early days as a business owner. One day an employee came into my office complaining she could no longer justify working for $11/hr. She said it couldn't pay her mortgage.

      Back story. Her family came from Iran and were wealthy except the money was frozen there and she could only access it a bit at a time. In the meantime, she decided it was wise to buy a very big house in a well to do neighborhood with a swell swimming pool.

      My sister panicked and was ready to give into her demands. That's when I reminded her a) we were a new business without cash flow b) we didn't tell her to live beyond her means and were not there to subsidize her lifestyle and c) to simply move on. There are plenty of competent workers around.

      Oh. We were doing this person a favor. She begged us to give her a chance. She didn't speak French and she needed a break. We represented that break and we gave it even though we were over paying her by $1 1/2!

      All this to say, fuck you Cuomo.

      1. By the way.

        She was very, very pretty.

        Persian purty.

        1. This may have been a negotiation for her to get you to pay for her ummmm.... other skills.

          1. I WISH.

            Although I did catch her eyeballing me.

            But my hippie sister learned a lesson in life. After she left, my sister said, 'Fuck, I don't even have a pool!'

            1. 'Fuck, I don't even have a pool!'

              "Cause you work here, Sis. Comprende?"

        2. I tap a pretty Persian girl. On occasion. Last night was just high school stuff.

      2. Only an idiot has an outdoor pool in Quebec. If she said "rink" she would have stood a better chance.

        And what asshole gave her a mortgage?

  4. That photo was taken while Cuomo was explaining that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a business to make it through a year in New York State.

    1. I thought it was more him explaining what New Yorkers' financial buttholes will look like after he's has his way.

      1. I thought he was demonstrating what Abner Luima's anus was dilated to after New York's Finest had their way with him.

        1. Maybe he was using the Louima story as a metaphor for his financial meddling benevolence?

  5. You cannot live and support a family on $18,000 a year in the state of New York ? period

    Then don't take a job that pays $18,000 a year.

    1. Or don't have a family while working a shit job.

      1. Or don't live in New York.

        There are quite a few options.

        1. Or sell drugs for extra income.

          1. Or drive for Uber to make up ... oh, wait, nevermind.

  6. Get out of New York state, before it's too late.

    1. Are you saying they should...escape from New York?

        1. The name's Pliskin

          1. Huh. Thought you'd be taller.

            1. You look taller on TV.

            2. Get a new president.

    2. It's surrounded with fantastic alternatives. Take your pick: New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, Canada.

      1. There's always suicide.

      2. I'm sorry, you listed New Jersey. Was that a typo?

        Connecticut is also quickly on its way to becoming a tax hellhole.

      3. Well, from personal experience - Connecticut definitely sucks. You're not getting out of ridiculous over-regulation and heavy taxation by moving *there*.

  7. Earlier this year, Matt Welch noted that the program spent $28 million in advertising alone while creating "maybe" 76 jobs.

    All of them temp advertising jobs for the state.

  8. Cuomo and his like aren't going to be satisfied until they completely destroy whatever is left of the blue states' economies. At this point, living in Jersey, I'm in favor of 'faster please'. Let's see what the new regulations (like Obamacare) and minimum wage laws do to these state. If it is as they say, and they don't have negative consequences, we'll know in a handful of years. We do have controls in the South and the West. Some will win and some will lose. I'd bet these progressive policies will do in whatever is left of the middle class. The income "inequality" in progressive states will continue to grow while the more red states will see better and more equal growth. We will see. Unfortunately, I can't vote with my feet, so I'll get a front row seat.

    1. the left has no use for the middle class. It was capitalism that gave rise to it.

      1. Lower class is the new upper class. The classless society: what's not to love?

    2. In a sense, I wish they would do this. It seems like what happens is by the time it becomes law is the rate hike has been lowered, and its phased in over ten years so nobody really sees how bad the idea was. They usually settle for a number that's so close to market value that negative consequences can barely be teased from noise and then proclaim that the minimum wage was wildly successful.

      1. And they don't index it to inflation so that they can "raise" it over and over again.

    3. "Cuomo and his like aren't going to be satisfied until they completely destroy whatever is left of the blue states' economies."

      Let's just hope the red states secede before then so they can keep the idiots out, or at least deny them citizenship.

    4. Wait for all the bitching when the blue States are collapsing and the red States flourishing: "the Republicans are exploiting the working class to enrich the flyover States!" In the end those blue state voters will move to where the money is. Such is the cancer that is progressivism.

  9. "[G]overnment should not be in the business of trying to restrict job growth." - Andrew Cuomo, hours earlier

    1. I was just about to say that. I read it right here, not 6 hours ago.

    2. Yeah. I take back any props I gave him in an earlier thread.

    3. It's populism all the way down. New Yorkers love it and Cuomo isn't in any position to affect New York policy toward it, so Cuomo can pander all he likes about opposing restrictions without actually having to do anything about them.

      1. I guess I should say *New York City, but fuck you. I'm from the midwest. New York never isn't used in reference to New York City. It's the Marklar of geography.

        1. Or the Kleenex of geography.

    4. Restrict job growth? The now higher paid workers stimulate the economy by spending their new-found wealth. It's Botox for GNP!

  10. I've spent some time up in Buffalo for my company, and it is truly beautiful with some extremely smart and driven technical people who aren't as hard to manage as the people you get in Silicon Valley.

    Other than the dreadful winters, the government there is most responsible for their terrible job market. Even when they give sweetheart deals to large companies to get them out there, the strings that come attached are innovation and job killers. They require you to do all your business in the county, use certain distributors, hire specific contractors, and the list goes on. Every time we try to come up with new projects or programs that would be located in the area, someone talks about consulting a lawyer to make sure it meets the terms of our colocation. At that point, rather than waste a week (or more) we just move on to a different location.

    When "Job Creation" turns a 5 minute decision into "talk to legal" you are doing it wrong.

    1. Yeah, but Buffalo has also got a nasty democrat infestation (they're one of the few areas upstate that went to Cuomo last election)

      1. (I hope people see the joke for what it was meant to be, and not Team cheerleading.)

    2. I've spent some time up in Buffalo for my company, and it is truly beautiful

      Wait, did we both go to the same Buffalo? The one I saw made New Jersey look downright magnificent.

      1. Hey, shit-heel?

        But for the socialists, limousine liberals, fat bastards, and I-talians Jersey if fucking awesome.

        Now apologize to our beautiful Garden State.

        1. The NJ most people are familiar with is the 20 mile stretch from Newark to Secaucus, which is basically the rust belt in a swamp.

      2. When did you go? In order to preserve my fantasy of the place, I only visit May through September.

        But yeah, I think it's great. I've been looking at cheap houses on acreage out there. I could buy a house out there and work out of our Buffalo (actually outskirts of the city) office during the summer for a pittance. I already like rural areas and old houses from the 1800's, so it's right up my alley.

        1. I went to see a Titans-Bills game years ago on Xmas eve day. The drive from the city to the stadium reminded me of Detroit without the cool architecture.

          I suppose if "rustic fixer upper" is your thing then by all means enjoy. I prefer to actually have more than two seasons besides winter and fall though.

      3. Exactly. Planes crash just to NOT get to Buffalo.

  11. It's OK - Cuomo supports Uber, so the popular companies are fine.

    1. Noted above. Previous praise: rescinded.

  12. "This is just the beginning. We will not stop until we reach true economic justice."
    And when Krystallnacht came, many were those who protested, "But how were we to know?"

    1. And when Krystallnacht came

      Night of the Southern equivalent of gut-bombs?

  13. Mr. Cuomo: if raising the minimum wage is such a great idea, why phase it in over a number of years? Why not make it happen ASAP?


    "...phasing-in not only mutes and, hence, helps to hide, the ill-effects of the minimum wage; more significantly, this phasing-in is solid evidence that minimum-wage hikes are in fact not scientific responses by government to the prevalence of employer monopsony power."


  14. Under a plan approved by New York's Fast Food Wage Board

    Wait, stop right there...

    1. Excellent catch. We're so inundated by statism, I am embarrassingly lax in asking the basic questions.

    2. The board was created specifically to reach this conclusion when the legislature wasn't damn fool enough to fall for it directly.

    3. Sounds almost like a task force.

    4. That's actually worse than the Raisin Administrative Committee. Though the best irony would be if this "Wage Board" were actually moles from Momentum Machines.

    5. Fast Food is another incarnation of Corporation Evil. Like Monsanto, Walmart or Koch Industries. Not because they like a lot of corporations engage in cronyistic relationships with government but because they are intrinsically, holistically and conceptually evil. I would explain why but if I had to it just means that you don't get it.

  15. "You cannot live and support a family on $18,000 a year in the state of New York ?

    No you cannot. Wonder why that might be?

    1. Indeed not, I'm sure.

      Of course, that is a long way from justifying a higher minimum wage.


    3. Housing? There's a reason people like The Donald are wealthy (and running for POTUS.)

  16. he's too dumb to know better. he's too dumb to know his HVCC rules cost appraisers businesses, jobs, and income nationwide while doubling the price and slowed real estate transactions to a crawl which had an overall negative effect on the economy. but he's not too dumb to be a democrat.

  17. Ten dollars to a hole in a donut says Cuomo has a stake in a company that manufactures automated burger machines. Also, the members of the state legislature are scrambling to buy stock in said companies.

    1. Come to think of it, I should get some myself.

  18. "Under a plan approved by New York's Fast Food Wage Board, a $15-per-hour minimum wage would be phased in over three years in New York City and six years across upstate New York..."

    You know who else had an economic plan that averaged about 4 years?

    1. Greenspan?

    2. Lice?

    3. Most undergraduate-education institutions?

    4. Thurston Howell?

  19. Alternate headline: Cuomo vows to make NY the first state with a fully automated fast food industry.

    Bring on the robots

    1. Maybe the robots won't fuck me at the drive thru


    2. They copass pass a law requiring that the machines be paid the minimum wage? And charge a 100% income tax on all machine income?

      1. How do you count machines? Because I'd just weld them all into one solid-steel chassis and be done with it. 1 minimum wage robot with 10 ordering terminal, 183 servos, 3 grill plates, 2 deep-fryers, and an ice cream dispenser.

        1. Nope, that's 199 machines. Pay up.

      2. You just know "robot licenses" are coming next.

  20. The Socialists don't even feel like they need to hide their intentions anymore. My only concern is when they epically fail and the shit really hits the fan, will your average citizen blame the right people? I have a bad feeling the blame will be placed on the kulaks and wreckers while the Cuomo's of the world go unpunished.

    1. Of course. Whenever the Marxians argue that the "data" shows there is no unemployment increase after a minimum wage hike, they purposefully ignore the effects of those hokes in those places that are controlled by the US (and who can ill-afford such hikes) where the unemployment rate SPIKED because of the mandatory federal hikes, mainly Puerto Rico and American Samoa.

      Oh, haven't you noticed how the Marxiand never seem to mention those places? Yeah... they don't exist.

      1. Both results of American Imperialism! Progressives have always disdained stupid Yankee Imperialism.

    2. They've already set their 'blame who' narrative.

      Haven't you noticed?

      Koch. Teabaggers. Libertarian Randians. You know. Extremists like us.

      No. I'm afraid the only way to get rid of this infestation is with a woodchipper.

  21. "Under a plan approved by New York's Fast Food Wage Board, a $15-per-hour minimum wage would be phased in over three years".

    There really is such a thing as a Fast Food Wage Board?

    1. yes, Cuomo made it when he failed to bully the legislature into raising the minimum wage.

      1. How do you get appointed to the Fast Food Wage Board?

        What are the qualifications?

        What's the pay?

        Are they eligible for city pensions?

        Other than sitting around all day thinking about whether they should raise the minimum wage and how high, what are their other responsibilities?

        Do they need support staff?

        What's their annual operating budget?

          1. What a ridiculous job!

            If only the politics of New York really was controlled by Wall Street.

            Who in the private sector can justify this kind of job?

              1. UAW members actually build cars.

                That's about the only thing good I can say about the UAW, but it's one thing better than the Fast Food Wage Board.

                The Fast Food Wage Board serves no useful purpose whatsoever, and it's members serve no useful purpose whatsoever.

                It's an ex-parrot!

                1. I didn't mean their members - I mean the people who actually worked for the UAW.

                  1. We're talking about who's as or more worthless, right?

                    I'm going to say that the purpose of the UAW itself is ostensibly to represent their members.

                    The purpose of the Fast Food Wage Board's is to represent Governor Cuomo.

                    That's no functional purpose at all.

                    1. Both advocate for unearned increases in compensation that kill the employer of the people they purport to help. Both have far too much money flowing through the coffers paid for by people who oftentimes have no choice in the matter which they spend on themselves, and in the end result in a net loss for society.

                      Where's the difference in utility?

                    2. I see what you're saying, and it's a tough call.

                      I'm certainly not about to argue that the UAW is a good thing.

                      There is one qualitative difference.

                      The UAW leadership is voted in by its members, so to some extent, it can be seen as being qualitatively valuable--to the UAW members.

                      Fast Food Wage Board can't even claim that if they're appointed by Governor Cuomo. Hell, if the fast food workers were represented by the Service Workers International, the the Service Workers International might be the same as the UAW. But the Fast Food Wage Board doesn't represent anybody but Governor Cuomo.

                      That's might freakin' useless.

        1. Total subservience to Andrew Cuomo is the minimum requirement, I am thinking.

    2. Relax. Regulatory capture means in 40 years The Fast Food Wage Board will be McDonald's bitch.

  22. I imagine many fast food restaurants will be able to handle this just fine. They'll just find different employees that are worth the money.

    1. Fascinating, what about the customers?

      What proportion of the price of a cheeseburger is eaten up by labor costs now?

      How many lower income people will be priced out of the fast food market?

      1. One businessman said it was a third of all expenses for just labor.

        I think he was retail and not food, though. But I wouldn't be surprised if that was low.

        1. There's a stat in my link below.

          $135,000 per year on just burgers nationally.

          But that's the national average--with a minimum wage that's a hell of a lot less than $15 an hour.

      2. From my own research in opening a small restaurant (which I passed on doing since I couldn't make the numbers work for me) - up to 50% is labor, easy.

    2. Re: MoveOn,

      Your imagination is not a premonition.

    3. They'll just find different employees that are worth the money.

      Like the BurgerBot 2000.

    4. They'll just find different employees that are worth the money.

      Those would have to be more productive, and for the same revenue, a smaller number.

      Which is exactly the point of the opposition to minimum wage: it prices low-skilled workers out of the market and destroys jobs.

    5. I imagine many fast food restaurants will be able to handle this just fine. They'll just find different employees that are worth the money.

      Like these employees.

      1. I'm pretty sure burger robot won't hock a loogie into my chocolate shake either. Score burger robot.

    6. You don't get it. Fast Food is Evil. This is a ruse to get rid of Fast Food. Bloomberg's bans didn't work. Cuomo's selective min wage will.

  23. "You cannot live and support a family on $18,000 a year in the state of New York ? period...

    I'm confused.

    Either he's wrong - because people *are* doing exactly that or

    He's right and there are no people trying to support a family on 18K/year in New York - in which case there isn't a problem for a $15 min wage to solve.

    1. Cuomo is talking about single-income families... which most are not. If he thinks people on welfare will be enticed to get up their lazy butts for a higher hourly rate, it would mean he doesn't have even a tenuous grasp of the concept of Opportunity Cost and Utility of Idleness.

      1. Doesn't matter - either these people are *doing* what he says is impossible or they don't exist.

        In either case, there's no problem to be solved.

  24. ".This is just the beginning. We will not stop until we reach true economic justice."

    Yep, when no one can buy toilet tissue, he'll be done.

  25. This is a great time to bring up that J.D. Tuccille's excellent post from several months ago:

    "Will Minimum Wage Protesters Order Fries From Their Burger-Flipping Robot Replacements?"

    Momentum Machines' old, boastier website claimed:

    Fast food doesn't have to have a negative connotation anymore. With our technology, a restaurant can offer gourmet quality burgers at fast food prices.

    Our alpha machine replaces all of the hamburger line cooks in a restaurant.

    It does everything employees can do except better:

    *it slices toppings like tomatoes and pickles only immediately before it places the slice onto your burger, giving you the freshest burger possible.

    *our next revision will offer custom meat grinds for every single customer. Want a patty with 1/3 pork and 2/3 bison ground after you place your order? No problem.

    *Also, our next revision will use gourmet cooking techniques never before used in a fast food restaurant, giving the patty the perfect char but keeping in all the juices.

    *it's more consistent, more sanitary, and can produce ~360 hamburgers per hour.

  26. continued...

    The labor savings allow a restaurant to spend approximately twice as much on high quality ingredients and the gourmet cooking techniques make the ingredients taste that much better.

    Separately, the company noted, "An average quick service restaurant spends $135K every year on labor for the production of hamburgers. Not only does our machine eliminate nearly all of that cost, it also obviates the associated management headaches."


    And if the average was $135,000 for labor on hamburgers at the minimum wage now--nationally-- you better believe it's going to be a lot more expensive in New York when the minimum wage is $15 an hour.

    I'd love to see the prospectus from that company.

    1. Of course, the typical restaurant would have to have at least two machines should one go down and need repairs. Otherwise, you'd need a manual backup option. With no employees, the likelihood is that the restaurant closes until the machine is fixed.

      This is true of any business - if enough employees call in sick or just plain don't show up, you've got a problem. My niece works at an expensive restaurant that typically never opens before 4pm. Last Mother's Day they decided to open for brunch. Total disaster - not enough workers for the number of customers that showed up and they ran out of inventory on several items. Lots of delays, lots of free meals, lots of very unhappy customers. Losing a few regulars hurts every business.

      In retrospect their experiment should have been done by reservation only, but the point still stands - the fewer workers you have the more important each one becomes. Robots are necessarily the panacea to small shops they are made out to be.

      1. Not necssarily

  27. I will repeat because it seems to get overlooked in every single story re: the Minimum Wage

    Most (more than half) the people earning minimum wage are either a) kids or b) temporary, part-time workers, or both.


    they are something like 3% of the total workforce. And the main impact of rising wage-mandates is to crush the job market for them.

    "People at or below the federal minimum are:

    - Disproportionately young: 50.4% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19).
    - Mostly (77%) white; nearly half are white women.
    - Largely part-time workers (64% of the total).

    They're not supporting families, and they're generally not "The Poor" that fucking idiots think are supposed to be magically empowered via more regulations.

    And the amount of young people working has been cut in half since the 1990s

    No doubt some asshole politician will re-discover this in a different context, and insist in MOAR SPENDING to rectify this problem. Put Young People back to work!

    1. Disproportionately young: 50.4% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19).

      1. What, it totally wiped out the rest of my comment?!

        Damn squirrels!

        Suffice it to say, you get into that age group and see that the unemployment rate among black kids in that age group is typically three to four times what it is for white kids, and we're talking about a $15 minimum wage hike that is objectively racist.

        1. yep. Basically, its targeting the few remaining employers of young minorities - fast food -, and saying, "STOP HIRING THESE PEOPLE AND REPLACE THEM WITH MACHINES"

          1. A real pessimist might think that if progressives tend to be the political support beneficiaries of such polices, then they might advocate the minimum wage for precisely that reason.

            The more black people there are who are genuinely discriminated against, the more powerful the progressives become, so if they can advocate polices that encourage direct discrimination against black people and they can do it under the guise of trying to get them paid more?

            Then of course they're going to do that. They have no morals.

            1. Your theory of vicious-cycle dependency as a source of Democrat power is 100% true at the local urban level. and many of those scumbag machine-politicians go on to be pretty significant power-players at the state level.

              I think that when you get to the "big money" at the level of state government, its less true, only because they are more concerned with scamming business interests rather than awarding po-folk with state handouts.

              But there's definitely a symbiotic relationship between "government regulations creating problems" and then using those problems as something to "promise to solve" if you're elected.

              The recent rhetoric around HUD trying to "solve segregation" is a case in point.

              HUD and FHA basically did nothing but help enable and magnify segregation for the entirety of the 20th century.

              As... Pro L? once said = liberal politics is like Medieval Medicine. "The patient ails... More Leeches!!"

              1. So Cuomo is Theodorick of New York?

    2. that youth employment chart

      strangely, the source there was from Center for American Progress... who agrees! Youth Employment is totally fucked

      And naturally, their "solution" is exactly what i'd expect - more state/federal spending!

      "Certainly, more work must be done to understand why some countries seem to have labor markets that are more youth friendly, but some hypothesize it is because these countries tend to have workforce-development systems that support apprenticeships, vocational programs, and other worker-training programs that bolster the transition between school and work. Providing young people with more structured pathways into work could be the key to maintaining relatively low youth-unemployment levels even during periods of economic downturn."

      Clearly we need more taxes and regulations to create jobs.

      1. I'm amazed how the people that are paid to study this stuff, people that really should know better at this point, constantly come up with Rube Goldberg policy machines to correct very simple problems.

        If you're so concerned about youth unemployment, stop making it a fucking crime to hire someone at the rate corresponding to the value they contribute.

      2. Worked in France!

        1. The words "work" and "France" are generally not used together in a positive way.

      3. After checking I see this is not Baker and Weisbrot's collection of Looney Toons, they are however on the same level of stupid. It's staggering how stupid a bunch of Phds can be.

    3. A certain number of minimum wage earners aren't even worth a low minimum wage. In one of my teen age jobs, I specifically asked my boss that if he insisted on keeping one of my co-workers employed that on days she was scheduled 'to be at work' (because she did not actually work) that he pay her on the condition to stay outside of a 200 yd perimeter of our store because she cost us even more than her meager wages by even being present.

  28. An increase in the minimum wage will be good for DIY'ers and the automation industry. That might not have been his intention, but thanks anyway, Gov Cuomo.

  29. So where is McDonalds going to keep the 30 restaurants at? Also, do franchises count?

  30. "You cannot live and support a family on $18,000 a year in the state of New York ? period....This is just the beginning. We will not stop until we reach true economic justice."

    Pack your bags NY. You got some nutbar demagogue running amok.

    Some parts of Upstate NY resemble ghost towns.

    1. And upstate New York could be seeing a revival through fracking, but the fucks in Albany outlawed it.

      1. not to mention that they managed to get the ban via activists raising like 200,000 signatures....

        ...from young manhattanites! almost none of whom are native NY'rs anyway

    2. This is why I tend towards economic pessimism, because the outlook where I grew up kept getting continually worse. I didn't know why until I got older.

  31. Cuomo fils entered the governor's mansion in Albany in 2011 amid assertions that he would kneecap unions that were driving up spending, reduce business regulations and red tape, restrain taxes of all sorts, and deliver "jobs, jobs, jobs."

    But wait, I thought this is the libertarian moment?

  32. "You cannot live and support a family on $18,000 a year in the state of New York ? period...

    Um...whose fault is that?

  33. Where's Tony?

    1. It's like Beetlejuice. You have to invoke his name three times. [on the chance you might conjure up a bad 90s R&B act]

      1. TONY, TONY, TONY.

        Should I rub my tummy too?

        1. I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL TONY......something, something.

  34. OT: So there's this young lady at my university that is protesting the university's rape policies because they didn't throw out the guy she accused of raping.

    So basically, according to her, she went to hang out with a guy and he raped her. She took pictures of her torn clothes and saved the location of where she was which was at the guy's place. She showed the university this evidence and while they disciplined the guy, they didn't expel him. But here's the kicker though.

    She never once went to the cops and she waited almost a couple of months to tell the university her story. Someone asked her why she didn't go to the police and her excuse was that they wouldn't have believed her anyway and there are only three percent rape convictions. Her excuse for waiting to tell the school was that she was too mentally traumatized to go see them and she used trying to forget all about it as a coping mechanism. She had pretty shabby evidence and she didn't go to the authorities right away, but yet expected DePaul after months of witholding this information to throw the guy out of school. I'm not saying that she didn't get raped but the story just does not add up.

    1. So how long after the encounter did the two break up?

      1. She didn't go into details about the guy's relationship with her, just that he attacked her.

        1. Did she say how she ended up at his place? Was that place on or off campus? why take pictures of the clothes and not report it right away? (My thought is intended to post something along the lines of "wild night" online because I'm seriously doubting her credibility)

      2. Here's her explanantion about why she didn't go to the police and go to the school after the incident happened:

        I didn't report this to the police for the same reason SO MANY OTHER survivors don't report their sexual assaults: fear of not being believed. In fact, I waited months to even report it to the school. I was in denial for a good amount of time about the situation (due to levels of intoxication, the fact that the perpetrator was a close friend of mine and I didn't want to hurt him, etc.). When I decided that I had to do something about the situation, I saw a counselor at DePaul to talk about the options. The school complaint process seemed like a better idea to me, because it seemed like I had an ironclad case against the perpetrator. The university conduct process is quicker and relies on a 51% likelihood of a school policy violation. The kind of justice I wanted at the time was just to see my rapist be removed from campus. And (as twisted as it seems) part of me still cared for this kid, enough to not want to see him go to prison."

        1. Continued: "Regardless, even if I reported it to the police, the likelihood that he would ever SEE a courtroom is very low, never mind the chances of me being able to convince a jury beyond a shadow of a doubt that he belonged in jail (approximately 3% of reported rapists are jailed). We live in a society that is so quick to blame women for being raped. I foolishly thought that MAYBE the university would value the integrity of a woman who's on track to get a BA and an MA in four years total, who works FOR the university, who's registered with CSD, who's never had a slip in her record. I was wrong."

          1. An actual crime victim doesn't base their decision to go to police on statistics.

            1. And this is her explaining the use of her evidence in front of the school's administrators:

              "No, you may not see the photo evidence I presented to the school. I gave them a lot of evidence as part of a formal conduct hearing?about 25 pages of it. Text message transcripts; call logs; drop pins proving my whereabouts at the time of assault; written statements from witnesses; photos of my torn clothing; and photos of the state of my body hours, weeks, even months after the incident. All of these materials belong to an investigation that DID indeed happen, it just proceeded poorly and violated university policy and so-called Vincentian values. Yes, they did find my rapist guilty of violating policy as well, but his punishment was nowhere near one appropriate for RAPING AND BEATING SOMEONE. I am under legal advisement not share these materials in a casual capacity, and I have no interest in doing so. I suggest you move your sick brain onward and stop asking to see photos that are incredibly triggering for me."

              1. Months? If there were any visible damage months later, she'd have been hospitalized, and the hospital would have called the cops.

                1. *hospitalized by the initial attack

              2. "I didn't report this to the police for the same reason SO MANY OTHER survivors don't report their sexual assaults: fear of not being believed."

                I don't profess to understand the mindset of a possible rape victim but this strikes me as unfortunate if not specious.

                I get some women may not come forward for so many reasons including the 'who is gonna believe you' angle but the way she's telling the story what has she got to lose in going to the cops? Is it because she knows it won't hold up?

              3. This person has NO CLUE of what Vincentian values are. A real Catholic turns the other cheek.

                If I'm the administration, I throw HER out of the school; she's bad for business.

          2. She's an idiot or a liar. If she knows so much about how rape charges are handled, why didn't she go immediately to the school or the police? Does she want the guy punished or not?

            1. What scares me is that the school is going to get some bad publicity over this and will implement some bullshit policies to placate those that are complaining the loudest

              1. Googling "De Paul" and "rape" doesn't bring up this case.

                1. It hasn't gotten out yet. I saw this on her FB page.

          3. Oops. She's using the trendy language. I don't believe a fucking word

        2. "due to levels of intoxication"

          Was he drunk too? Because in that case, it wasn't rape, unless women are such delicate flowers they can't be held to the same standards as men.

          Oh, and how drunk were you? Because if it was 'kind of drunk' and you had sex with a guy and then regretted it, that's not rape either.

          It's possible she was assaulted, but she was drunk and I am getting very wary about people using intoxication as a proxy for being raped. I've had sex when I've been very drunk, and in none of those encounters did I consider myself raped because I'd made the choice to get that drunk, and even if I regretted it the next day, that was my own damn fault for bad decision making.

          It's not rape if you choose to get drunk and have sex with someone else, unless you're so drunk you literally cannot possibly have consented. This is especially true because I've met many people where you can't know how drunk they are, so they'll be blackout drunk but still totally coherent. As a result, a man could have sex with a woman who was 'blacked out,' as in not remembering what happened, but he would have had no way of knowing how drunk she was.

          So this entire situation is an outright kangaroo court based on drunken mistakes.

        3. So she's fine with him being out there to keep on raping, just as long as he isn't enrolled at her particular school.

          These people have zero interest in justice, they're just self-centered assholes who should be ignored.

      3. So how long after the encounter did the two break up?

        Sounds like a "couple of months".

    2. The problem is this: the guy probably DID rape her but we cannot have a standard where zero evidence can put anyone in jail. That leads to even worse problems. The 'rape dialogue' should empower women by reminding them that there is no shame in rape and to give them advice on how to provide evidence (preferably concrete) and recognize those statutory limitations that will rape your case.

      1. I've told feminists this in the past and got called a rape denier. If we allowed zero evidence with regards to accusations of rape, we aren't any better then those guy who killed Emmitt Till.

        1. Well, you are a rape denier like me because you said 'probably'. While using the word 'probably' instead of automatically assuming the late-accusing female of prevarication, we are better than most men (who ARE rapists), you and me are still only marginally better than our truly rapey peers by admitting that rape in reality is perpetrated not infrequently by insecure confreres.
          But we are still deniers because...? Only men lie? Of course. Just like an ex-girlfriend could never be a psycho bitch.
          Holy Shit. Humanity. Still stuck in Junior High School.

      2. I'm trying to convince my wife put our daughter in a self-defense class. So far no dice. I put her in karate for one day and she hated it. Can't force the kid.

        Still. I think that's one of the best ways to give women a fighting chance.

        1. Try the ancient Italian martial art of knife-fighting. Switchblades for preference.

        2. Have you tried target shooting classes?

  35. Its examples like this that should clarify to anyone with a brain that left-wingers really don't give a flying fuck about most (if not all) of the issues they claim to care about. They care that the policies *appear* that way, and deliver on the *feels*, but have absolutely zero concern with the underlying reality.

    basically, inequality sucks, but lets fuck the poor over because this political move "sounds good". They support the minimum wage purely because its something that rich people can talk about and feel like they've *done their part* by supporting this dumbass measure.

    1. You are ruining my FEELZ and killing my BUZZ!!!

      *plugs ears, drones "lalalalalalalalala"*

    2. The rich might get in over their heads, at some point, managing an ever growing underclass. They're thinking $15/hour is not excessive for a security guard.

  36. OT- Question for the board. Since GDP includes government spending is it a good indicator of an economy's strength? Since people can essentially vote to make other people buy shit they themselves didn't feel like paying for isn't the marginal utility fucked?

    1. GDP is a piss poor indicator of anything.

      1. Well, okay but is there anything better?

        1. No one number is going to show the whole picture.

          I tend to eye ball it by looking at things like the cost of living, the median wage, the workforce participation rate, things of that nature that don't try to distill too much into a single number.

      2. true dat

        Best measures of economic strength is primarily a combination of corporate spending / purchasing by managers... and consumer/retail spending.

        Things that are survey/opinion based like consumer confidence are nice as a qualitative proxy

        1. I think consumer spending is a poor and vastly overrated metric. You can pump up your spending through debt, just like the government does. Probably the best metric would be capital stock minus debt. Don't know how you'd get that conveniently though.

          1. Its not the level of the #, its the % change year over year. Retail spending measures movement of money changing hands. Your indicators are just static measures of capital, which doesn't indicate anything about flow.

            Rising levels of consumer debt is generally seen as a positive thing for economic growth. People don't generally buy cars or homes straight up for cash.

            1. Consumer debt is as unsustainable as government debt., especially if the filters are bad (see 2008).

      3. GDP includes Ponzi schemes (okay, other than gov't sponsored ones). I seem to remember Albania's GDP being spiked by an early 90s Ponzi scheme. Anyone else remember?
        But of course, Ponzi schemes are fantastic at stimulating the economy when in the right hands (i.e. Government hands run by Top Men.)

        1. Holy shit, how had I never heard this story.

          "The pyramid scheme phenomenon in Albania is important because its scale relative to the size of the economy was unprecedented, and because the political and social consequences of the collapse of the pyramid schemes were profound. At their peak, the nominal value of the pyramid schemes' liabilities amounted to almost half of the country's GDP. Many Albanians?about two-thirds of the population?invested in them. When the schemes collapsed, there was uncontained rioting, the government fell, and the country descended into anarchy and a near civil war in which some 2,000 people were killed. Albania's experience has significant implications for other countries in which conditions are similar to those that led to the schemes' rise in Albania, and others can learn from the way the Albanian authorities handled?and mishandled?the crisis."

          Albanian pyramid schemes almost started a civil war!

          1. "When the schemes collapsed, there was uncontained rioting, the government fell, and the country descended into anarchy libertopia."

            Obviously a market failure.

    2. "Since GDP includes government spending is it a good indicator of an economy's strength?"

      I'd say yes in that the countries with the highest GDPs per capita actually are the richest countries. Now, the problem could be that you're goosing GDP by taking on debt which would mean you're living beyond your means and could be in for a crash in the future.

      So I think it's a good measure of wealth *today* but it doesn't tell you enough about the economy's fundamentals due to the possibility you could be borrowing against the future. That's one of the things that fucked Greece - ten years ago their GDP was high because of massive government spending, but after the crash they had no means of paying off the debt.

      You also saw a similar issue in Venezuela where the economy's fundamentals were atrocious but it was papered over by record oil profits between 1998 and 2008. Then when the fracking revolution occurred, those oil profits dried up and the economy crumbled. So GDP is a good measure of strength at a given moment, but it's very possible that you could be living on borrowed time due to weak foundations for your economy.

      1. That's kind of my take, I was hoping there was a way to maybe tease out the government waste without rendering the number useless, but I don't think there's a way.

  37. So Cuomo supports Uber, but goes full retard on min wage.

    That, people, is BALANCE. Cuomo, therefore, is a CENTRIST? He's the NORM. Anyone to the RIGHT of him is an EXTREMIST?

    Get it? Got it? Good.

    /prog....and Grainger

  38. Every discussion of the minimum wage should include that fact that it was invented by Progressives as a racist, sexist, eugenics measure. The point was to have a "white man's wage" that raised wages for white men, but also: 1) discouraged the employment of women, so that they would stay home and make babies, and 2) disemployed the undesirable types, such as blacks and the disabled, so that they would be less likely to be able to afford to have children.

    This is undeniable history, though I'm too busy to find a link right now. But it's the sort of thing every libertarian and conservative should bring up when this is discussed. Modern-day progressives insist that minimum wage laws don't cause unemployment, but how can they argue against the people who invented it?

    1. I am kinda sure you've read Parapundit's blog a time or two. He advocates increasing the minimum wage and regulations such as putting no less than a 30 year warrantied roof on your bungalow.

      His logic might be racist also, in practice, but it's more sublime. He wants to stop massive 3rd world immigration into the US by making sure that their trek here is not worth their while. You want a new a new roof? Pay for it now and in full.

      1. His logic is also extremely stupid. The minimum wage increases the black market for labor, which is almost exclusively "illegal". No employer in the labor black market would take a chance on employing a legal resident for below minimum wage - an illegal resident can't rat the employer out.

  39. upstate New York, whose economy has long been the American equivalent of East Germany

    We don't drive Trabants, Nick.

    1. Trabants are a fascinating bit of economic history. We all know how a company needs to create something worth more than the raw materials, labor, overhead, etc. that went into it. Well, when the Berlin Wall fell and Western economists got to look at the books, they discovered something unique in the history of economics: Trabants were a value-subtracted product. The finished product was actually worth less than the raw steel, glass, rubber, fabric, etc. that went into producing them.

      1. Q: How do you double the value of a Trabant?

        A: You fill the the tank.

        1. That's good.
          I was told you put the oil that leaked out back in.

  40. Cuomo is Bruce Springsteen or Neil Young without the songwriting or lyrics. It's a wonder he even has any following at all.

  41. Lucy done gone all SJW identity politics. Sad

    1. It's amazing the way they went after Bernie Sanders. He's done more for civil rights in Washington than anyone of those millenial dbags in the audience ever dreamed about yet they still called him a racist.

      I would enjoy watching the left eat itself more if it wasn't so terribly sad.

      And I'm not sure Lucy had all that far to go, to be honest.

      1. Lucy always leaned left libertarian (which is fine) but the identity politics shit is something else entirely. It is telling that even Robby calls her out on it.

        1. In my experience people who are "socially liberal/economically conservative" are libertarians, they just don't want to admit it.

          Robby and Lucy are/have always been leftists, but they know the math doesn't work economically so they hide behind the small l libertarian mantra.

          1. Robby is in no sense a leftist. It's amazing to me that Robby gets called a rape apologist by actually feminists and then gets labeled left-wing by commenters here.

            Robby's more of a libertarian than an awful lot of writers here, especially Dahlmia, Chapman, and ENB (although I like her, ENB is obviously a left-winger).

            When you have a libertarian website publishing Dahlmia's whinging idiocy about how we can't have private marriage contracts because CONFUSION AND POLYGAMY AND DIVORCE COURT, it makes no sense to criticize someone who's usually on the right side of things, like Robby is.

            1. The same guy who gave this tongue bath to Krugman isn't a leftist?

              Before today, I had only ever experienced Krugman via his acerbic, blithely partisan NYT columns. He was much more reasonable?and ultimately, persuasive?in person. Ultimately, the Krugman/Moore debate served as a good reminder that the important intellectual fight is between advocates of limited government intervention and advocates of moderate government intervention, not between advocates of limited government and advocates of all-encompassing government. Even Krugman, the left's most influential economics expert, is not a socialist.

              1. Calling Krugman not a socialist, saying he's blithely partisan in print but 'much more reasonable' in person - man, that doesn't seem like much of a tongue bath. It seems like a reasonable person not being mean enough to someone you don't like.

                I hate Krugman too, and think he's a total prick, but saying 'Krugman is not a socialist' isn't the same as supporting his ideas.

                1. How would he act differently if he didn't support his views?

                  This is just one example. There are others.

                  From the same piece-"Krugman was at his most persuasive when talking about Obamacare, which he called a "remarkably successful public policy" that brings the United States more in line with the cost-effective healthcare policies of European nations."

                  1. ""Krugman was at his most persuasive when talking about Obamacare, which he called a "remarkably successful public policy'"

                    this is supposedly someone who's read all Peter Suderman's reporting?

                  2. I'm a libertarian anarchist who finds the Austrian approach quite robust; Krugman is not a socialist.

                    1. "I'm a libertarian anarchist who finds the Austrian approach quite robust; Krugman is not a socialist."
                      Perhaps not, but he proposes policies that are, such as this pile of shit:


                2. "Robby is in no sense a leftist."

                  I dont remember anyone ever accusing him of that.

                  He seems to consistently arrive at libertarian(ish) conclusions on topics.

                  Its that in the process of getting there, he seems to feel the need to throw out a heap of unnecessary value judgements about what Is and what Is Not "Okay"

                  Its a little juvenile. Its like the "idea" of free association is totally important and stuff....but if anyone were to actually *act on it*? OMG LOOK AT THESE HORRIBLE PEOPLE.

                  As someone else put it - you get the sense that you're having 'libertarianism' explained to you by someone that doesn't understand it, and even if they did, doesn't really believe in it very strongly.

                  that, and he often seems to take the social-justice-warrior argument and accept its claims as 'fact' before attempting to offer any weak defense of the chosen target du jour

                  See: the Anti-Gay Pizzeria, non-existent Gamergate "Bomb Threat" accusations, the "incomprehensible, shocking" racism of the Duke professor who suggested that African Americans give their kids funny names, his repeat assertion that "while Campus Rape Culture is still a major problem..." when the evidence tends to show that college kids suffer *less* sexual assault than the general population, his weird assertion that the "role of government is to protect minorities".... etc. and many more.

                  1. Add the completely idiotic arguments about Gamergate, and above all, about Anita Sarkeesian and her ostensible goal of "cleaning up games." But don't trust me or Robby, trust leftie British chap who both actually watched her videos and knows video games.

                  2. I like Robby and think he will do quite well at another, higher profile, higher paying media outlet. Reason has a style book-problem. To be fair to Welch, this seems more of a website issue than one of the magazine.

            2. When you have a libertarian website publishing Dahlmia's whinging idiocy about how we can't have private marriage contracts because CONFUSION AND POLYGAMY AND DIVORCE COURT

              Once again, I will white knight Dalmia on that. It was the first time I've seen a substantial difference in opinion above comment section since way back when Ukrainian crisis was just beginning, being on Russia Today was still a done thing, and Zenon Evans was the only one who thought Putin was the aggressor.

              Was it stupid? Fuck yes. Was it libertarian? Probably not. But at least it was different.

    2. Lucy Steigerwald ?@LucyStag 2h2 hours ago

      Hi black lives matter doesn't literally mean that all lives don't matter, it means people treat black people as expendable and they're not.
      9 retweets 9 favorites

      Does she mean white people treat blacks as expendable?

      Also. Black on black crime.

      Just saying.

      The other day I heard a radio interview with a professor Shirley Steinberg from the University of Calgary (a Maryland native as it were) talk about 'white privilege' and an upcoming film on MTV called 'White Reign.'

      A few angry texts came in and she responded with a 'I don't understand the anger'? line. No shit, Shirley. You just spent 20 minutes talking about how whites fucked everything up no kidding people will get upset no matter how hard you try to sound intellectual about it. Have a listen:


      1. black lives matter doesn't literally mean that all lives don't matter

        Yes, it abslutely DOES mean that.

        To mean what you want to mean you'd say "Black Lives Matter, TOO."

        There's a reason you aren't saying it that way - either you don't mean it or you're stupid.

        And I'm saying it right now: THE LIVES OF IDIOTS DON'T MATTER.

    3. We live in this world where racism is everywhere [...]

      Oh, Jeebus. Lots of things are "everywhere," but that doesn't necessarily mean that we can change it, or that our efforts will be worthwhile, that they won't have major unanticipated consequences, or that "fixing" it will solve the problems we think that it will solve. There's a common delusion that black poverty is caused solely by racism, so that if racism disappears, all economic disparities will disappear. Has Lucy really fallen for that bullshit?

      1. Why did she get canned from reason btw?

        1. I've heard tales of bad editing and spelling errors. Although Reason has never exactly been known for its crisp editing standards, so that could be wrong.

          1. It has always been "don't talk about Lucy" and I have always wondered why she got the boot. I figured it was the smoking in the staff room.

      2. I think the bottom line is that the numbers aren't very good. Either within this country or across the world blacks as a group aren't doing that great. Faced with the numbers, people look for a reason. Since we know that genetics couldn't possibly be the reason unless they're gay they come up with racism. Even though you don't really see much of it, the statistics prove it! People on the right came up with culture (parents, work ethic, etc.), which is at least more believable because it explains and makes good predictions about how two people in the same location can have vastly different levels of success. But somehow that idea is considered racist by some.

        The very fact that those are basically the only two explanations ever put forth today sort of shows exactly how non-racist we are as a society. We won't entertain any other possibilities in polite company.

    4. #blackassesmatter. Anaconda. VMAs.

    5. I don't think black lives matter is the perfect slogan (though good when pinned to Rikers) but stop being deliberately obtuse about it.

      I just hate people who deliberately misunderstand the intention of highlighting black lives, even if it's not a perfect slogan.

      Oh God, she's lost her mind!

      And I thought we weren't supposed to talk about this?

    1. I like how the Columbia School of Journalism was portrayed by a sword-wielding Voltron.

      1. Also my favorite part.

      2. OMFG! That's clearly a RX-78-2 Gundam mobile suit. It looks nothing like the daimecha known as Beast King GoLion!

        Jesus! You people!

        1. HM, you are my hero!

          1. Thank you, my good man. Please enjoy this:

            The story takes place in Istanbul, where a violent criminal organization led by Spider-Man ("Spider's Gang") surfaces in the city with counterfeit United States dollars. A small task-force consisting of Captain America, Santo and Captain America's girlfriend Julia arrives to help local police stop Spider-Man and his gang.

            Captain America's girlfriend, who has infiltrated Spider-Man's hideout, is captured and taken to a house in a remote location. She manages to send an SOS signal to the Captain. Captain America saves Julia and chases after Spider-Man, who manages to escape.

            Meanwhile, Mexico's national superhero/wrestler, Santo, infiltrates the dojo that is used as a front for counterfeiting. After being captured, he manages to escape along with incriminating evidence.

      3. Gundam, you philistine! That was an original RX-78 prototype Mobile Suit Gundam

        I have a soft spot for it because I had a cool metal model as a kid and knew nothing about where it came from for another 20 years.

  42. "Economic justice."

    Sounds evil as fuck.

  43. Humans should pay others as little as others will allow for and when those others have huge brains we are forced to pay them what they want? I see zero need for the social justice church in all this.

    1. It grates that people fapping themselves about caring for the poor are slaphappy about their imminent unemployment.

  44. What is the Maunder Minimum wage?

    1. 15 Thalers an hour. Stradivarius wouldn't work for less.

  45. So now that El Nino looks like it's going to be a rough one will the climateers claim that's where the atmospheric heat went and is now being released?

    1. Republicans hate poor people? El Nino fucks 'em cheaper than invasion, so the tax payer wins?

    2. Yes, also, 90s were not as hot as they thought, so there was no warming pause. You may now go back to panicking.

  46. Though, I don't think our libertarian streams and effervescence allows for nuance on where dollars flow to and from. I think this is why we are not liked by many. Sometimes I fear our brilliant poet hordes miss the zig while zagging.

    I am not thrilled that Jill decided to strap-on a huge rage cock and rape Ayn readers up the assholes with her Vice article. But, I guess, Jill needed a female ego hit for that motherfucking week. But it's not as if we aren't so fucking hardcore we invite a raping up the ass by Jill with the textual strap-on occasionally.

    I presume Jill rarely fucks or she likes to fucking jam silicone into the throats of motherfuckers who enjoy the female she hates. Great job, Jill. You should earn the feminimost award of the fucking year. You ass-fucked your fonts right into a pile of humans who enjoy fucking absorbing Ayn Rand syllables. what an amazing fucking Jill.

    1. Agile, do we need a passport to enter your stream of conscience?

      1. I'm pretty sure it's very open borders.

      2. Rufus, I love my baby firefly stars. please be careful on your fireflies.... Rufus can get dragged underneath star brooks and the rocks can hit Rufus head and his fireflies live alone, Rufus.

  47. New Yorkers are so lucky to have Lou Reed as their Gov.

    1. I voted for Moe Tucker.

      1. If your Q throws its chips in why would U vote for an echo?

        1. I didn't know Moe read Goldwater.

          1. A horrid piles of minds also read the G your fingers thoughtlessly shat in this world bro.

            Q-champ.... can you afford the surgery my fingers will tap in your mind? peace out, nigga.

            best feel the smell and ontoward and off.... and rejection and prefecture like a solid line of invisible priests crossing a million shoulders and then a million echoes of.... hate... buried under volcanic love...

            can yo travel this rivulet of matters?

            1. Twelve drinks in, I swim.

  48. I don't think wealth has a balance man. I have money. We live frugalistic. I give tons of money but I was very fucking dead poverty once, man. Like fucking starving when Dad's business would fail on off years and his shitty ass was still giving fucking tithes to his shitty cult. FUCK you Dad forever even though I have to love you because you are going to die soon.

    Economic aisles are so fucking complex I've never read a single fucking economist that bridged the gaps without politicizing the discomfort of why I was once a little boy so hungry I ate grass in the backyard until I can now eat what I wish.

    Unless you are poor you are uncomfortable. You walk in a home and assume shit. And if you have money you are dealt with psychiatric shit- how to NOT feel better than this 'person' thing.

  49. I painted murals in a school that was destroyed a few years after my graduation. I painted shit all over the fucking walls. And one room I spilled paint in had this very rich and probably super bored oldish lady who taught fucking english to fucking mexicans. Probably a widower from the richer but sadder side of Toledo Ohio... but to her credit she was trying to teach a class of insanely hot mexican girls and one extremely disturbed fucking goddamn sicario most likely. I'd paint all this fucking 9 foot walls with Mehiko tapestries of shit I'd researched and then I'd spill my brain cum all over this vertical shit like a motherfucking lion ass rape..... walls like 35 feet wife and 10 feet tall and while my arms painted my fucking brain would gape at the two little awesome piles of mexican roses right in front of the rich bored white lady's desk because they were so fucking crazy sexy my jeans ran off and fucked satan in the mouth--- shit, that didn't happen- satan was not fucked in mouth with my jeanage but so it goes...

    one of the mexican goddesses came up to me after my mural was finished and she lip-kissed me. and was gone.

    and the old bored rich lady was gone.

    and the entire school is now gone.

  50. you should always fuck time with your dick and if you don't have dick and you have a pussy you should grab time and wrap it like a towel and rape it like a good girl.right.up.your.pussy.

    Time should be raped and fucked and even killed because no matter- its a shit fest time owns the beasts cavorting round our screaming balls and vagina egg rolls.

  51. If your face has bad dreams arm your brain with fucking reason lasers, man.

    1. My face has beard. I know not it's impact resistance to the newton-meter, but it deters.

  52. Not a single bottle of wine can stand in my way, knickerbocker.

    1. Has beer. Shakes can, shit. Had beer.

      1. What a lovely shivering timeline of booze Q. Code bullets are breaking jaws man- i hear a million midnight hours sliding like a ghost into the little chip village of the boy Q.

        1. I am the ghost village, Cy. I am nothing but introspective.

          1. the beauty of the underneath calls...

            if you fell nothing and lie limp you can trip without prescription.

            1. Cough syrup. I survived a government job while continuously high on cough syrup. I had a sore throat from talking on the phone all day, but junked it daily thereafter to soothe my brain.

              1. what a beautiful snag of vectors., rapping in the throat and underneath the spinger. Q chaps os is strong and blantawanglous under the tyrobomotors.... I am sliding in to the deep bile on the lights where angels picnic, man

                1. what a beautiful snag of vectors

                  I was counting Canadians.

  53. A National Conversation about families with fussy children in restaurants. Annoying? Oh, most certainly.

    Though if the child is 1 and a half yrs old, I imagine that the blame (if any) for the situation would have to rest with the parents and not the child.

    Such nuanced distinctions seemed to escape the diner owner who decided that it would be a good idea to scream in the child's face. And boast about it on Facebook.


    1. Children are little tunnels into future adult brains. Children provoke and test us engorged big people children. Engorged big people children are merely children who aren't tiny and new with small arms and legs.

      Engorged big people children called adults should resonate with their fucking root people and give them peace to fuck up a million times.
      This is the test of Massive Children who marry and produce Mini children.

      Time does not give us enough minutes to avoid being children until we die. So when some fucking newborn troll gets frisky on some wings if you need to yell at the little fuck I understand but.... please, loves. imagine your bones tripping on quiet peace on a lonely mountain no jet visits... and do the mind dance... don't yell at babies being you once.

    2. We need to send some of these kids to her establishment.

      1. a million ass licking ninjas need to surmount the walls of the stars and steal your skinky ass and remove it unto a million bottles of wine and at least 50 piles of tequila and then after my million ass licking ninjabutts captured HM.... our nasty vile Thompson and Burroughs poltergeists would rip your entire creatured situation into a billion particles and Mulatto the master god of rippage apart would whistle and horn in angers and slams and boofa whoofa and the Heroism would master blast the nightware attack on his living visages... and a trillion cells of hate and nightmare would fall into and under a thousand dandelions......

  54. my pinky slides in my ass and the thumb of my punk dude pushes his favorite car into my asshole. my pinky shares my ass with tom's favorite matchbox car from before my asshole was born.. and we slide into my ass. my pinky and my punk dude called my other arm hand and his favorite car...

    repentance on the altar is nigh, as my pinkies and punk dude matchbox shit ravage the asshole of a dude we found on a beach who was killed by a white shark....

    we have to rape his dead surfing ass with this tune until the light of running legs of those shits who save lives.

  55. I can pretty much guess Agile's schedule at the refinery based on the posting schedule here.

    1. Your fucking lovely arms are like sparrows flitting on the mustaches of tiny sperm, Playaman. If a dude was to remove your super caustic uppercase M your name and avarious assumptions over a million universes of hell ...Playa.m.anhattan....

      A single fucking erasure of a single fucking M. makes a powerful icon seem Playa man(er)hat?... umfuck... do you have acid so I can kill my font?

      Playa NEEDZ Manhattan.

      How hard does Manhattan FUCK Playa....

      quiet pondering musing poetsprungs. is all. on the clocks.

  56. I had to rip apart a most loving loved friend tonate. I seriousis mostly don't even carest of not a singlest reason dudes like or hates me for this forever. don't care. I am fucked up and gone and I still am in love with my loves inthis threads but I can't carith.

    I lovingly turned the screwse on my business desk of 20 fukin plus years..... I am ashamed to admit I cried all night. Desk lasts as long as my marriage, babes.

    tomorrow i will offer up my desk to the universe with a burial of fire.... and a momento of peace silent.

    desks over decades make humans weep, man.

    fuckyou if you don't get his.... i took my desk apart like a fossil and I am NOT FUCKIng ashamed.

    I love this piece of firnutire.... peace out, almighty desk. Bro desk, thank you for giving me feelings of trump, thank you for a leg up for 20 years, thank yo for storage, thang you for that one night I fucked my younf wife pussy on you, bro desk....

    I will thank the desk. and I will offer a kneel to my 20 plus year deskatological.

    1. My dad has kept a barrel of methylene chloride around the shop for purely sentimental reasons. Crying over a chippered desk is eminently sane.

      1. Q-frags fall under the cracks of moans and the silent floors scream when looking underneath their underware and q-fragments sing like floor cum unto the ghostly cold pillars when the limbs
        gain ice an time with jesus and his girls running callous rats on the notices of fucking jeans.

        1. I salute your desk. It was a good desk.

          1. My brain sluices Q

  57. Cuomo: "We need to raise the minimum wage by law, because Lord knows there's nothing the government can do to reduce the cost of living."

  58. light bends man.
    life bends... you die but
    you bend after death.
    your dad died but he bends time
    and his booze slapped your mind
    when you cleaned his cars and fields.

    and mom's life bent when
    you removed her pie pans..
    your dead mom bent life when she entered you
    on that note and font.

    life is dead and death is life.
    the hammer of loss is the hammer of gain.
    the chip of death is the chip of mind peace
    the scratches on living and dying are the shaman
    of sameness.

    Living is dying and dying is living.
    the tragic is the test of peace

    the tragedy of the loss is the test
    of a mind or loss

    this is why prison is so FUCKING horrible and every single legislator that has contributed to the prison state should suffer a massive cock jammed into their worthless fucking assholes....

    prison fixes nothing.

    1. "light bends man.
      life bends... you die but
      you bend after death."

      No. When you're dead, you're dead. It's hard to bend a man's body after rigamortis sets. Are you a construction worker and a poet?

      1. I passion widget stars, love flame

        1. That's not sexy!

          1. You sure?

          2. I'm a switch. That's really one of the roles you can play in private sexual domination/submission theater. It's been a long time, but I try to be a informative here, if nothing else.

            1. Really? This is the old men at the barber shop forum?

  59. Immigrants are often looking for peace, trump.
    Immigrants looking to kill are shit-eaters but why should the genuine poor suffer at the hand of killers, Trump?

    1. Trump, end the drug war. Offer peaceful solutions to immigrants seeking quiet labor.

      Trump will chased out of fucking politics by the reason-paraliyzed.

  60. fuck Jill. I love all my boys and reasonist girls and FUCK you jill.

  61. I'll just leave this here.

    1. Trump gently cut down Q-mothership and the chips fell around
      Trump balls and Trump seized on a lion called Q.
      Trump cock found Q-chipping underneath lines and Trump soldiers
      bent the Q lips to Trump tongue spears.

      Little Q- chip was found desparate on the dry fields by the Trump troopers

      little Q

      sucked Sir Trump Cock... his little Q-chip head bobbing on pre-pres dick while the motherfucking
      ultra tyrant wannaba spilled his sperm into little Q and then little
      Q realized his weapon was in his shielded tomatoe soup and Q pulled the laser of Sam and shot that shit at Awesome TRump and ..

      trump died... alone and dead....

      I felt sad because Q killed trump.

      1. I felt sad because Q killed trump.

        *Looks around for alibi.*

  62. I guess ENB loves Jill so much she gotoff on Jill FUCKING with us who 'like' the little atheist dead white bitch who immigrated from a violent Russia which I'm pretty sure JILL has never experienced in her strange sexual world here in 'Murica.

    Libertarian life is strange on clouds when trumpets escape
    and awful twines go round and round on serpents
    when strings reflect stars beneath the trees.

  63. Or sell loosies...oh wait...


  65. my fucking eye balls hurt with wine
    my heart burns with alleys filled with lonely girls
    my neck yearns for a bruise and beating of love

  66. I just want to know why Jill felt is so FUCKING necessary to FUCKING beat the FUCK out of my ass on vice because I love Ayn. Man, I read FUCKING literature no one FUCKING READS, JILL
    Jill, I've read every single fucking word Russell and Nietshce and Mills and Sartre have produced. I read Marx and motherfucking Freud. WHAT THE FUCK will it take for you to NOT HATE US, Jill?

    I'm pissed, for real. At leat ENB doens't treat her FUCKING dudes this way. I own every single fucking shit sartre has produced but... don't do pills and get fucked up and read Sartre- you will not want to love or live or fucking whatever....

    fuck this shit man

  67. I just want to fall into colors and clowns
    and let me eat arms of lights where
    sentences really dont give a ginger
    of taps and twingers and clacks.

    man, what the fuck.
    the ghost is screaming in my spaces
    and a million triangles are riffing and smiting upon
    the decibels of million dots
    where a trillion led rifts lift and wan and smash
    between the roads of planets

    I see
    I feel
    the strums strung poncs
    the light floars um deng i a m lost
    flic blends of knickls and tiny pats
    O flow on fee; tjis bro... I am gone on a raft of violins and echoes and here it comes the piano of light and falls hither resist because life will not ebb beneath the deep bass bows it fears falling too deep so shoul the meditation of the peaceful we can fall into meditation so laser that we will not come back man,.... please my fingers are tripping and I am tripping but i am gone but oh man m..... shit deep down of fuck ohfuck....

  68. a billion crystals collapse every single second
    and the liquids splash in my arms
    the fervent spaces squander the humans and
    humans sqaunder the deeper. the lost alleys of the intrinicate tunnels and sounds and lights and fFUCKING touch and darkness and inward fall. the inward cliff in deep where no
    kill deadself will travel... fall into your deepest brain cliff.. i do and i often can't get back...

  69. Unsatisfied with the state's 46th place economic health ranking Governor Cuomo announces an ambitious plan to achieve 50th place.

    1. We're almost number 50!

      1. When I was growing up, states like Mississippi, Arkansas, and Louisiana were always vying for bottom place economically. I'm not sure if I should be surprised that the bottom spots are now reserved for the formally prosperous and well-educated northeastern states.

  70. The minimum wage is merely a variant/type of state-mandated wage .... even sounds fascist 🙂

  71. "Economic justice" but only at other people's expense of course. Cuomo refused to allow the tax assessor into his home after extensive renovations.

  72. "Economic justice" but only at other people's expense of course. Cuomo refused to allow the tax assessor into his home after extensive renovations.

  73. I ask people who favor the $15 minimum wage, why are we stopping at $15? Why not $16, or $20? Now the smarter proponents among them will note that while a high enough minimum will kill too many low wage jobs, losing "some" low wage jobs is worth it to raise wages for enough employees who keep their jobs, or they might suggest that a modest enough legal wage hike will cut a bit into employers' profits, but not so much that they have to eliminate jobs.

    The problem with that argument is it's not just employer profits that determine how much they pay for work--more importantly, the amount you pay for labor will be less than the labor is worth to you--even if you otherwise are running a profit (which is why even if you can afford to pay someone $100 to sweep your front doorstep, you won't pay it if a swept doorstep isn't worth $100 to you). And there is a lot of work out there that simply is not worth $15 an hour to the employer.

    The other thing is that while we sometimes hear about a store closing (like the bookshop in SF) due to a big hike in the minimum wage, the bigger effect is felt over a period of time as jobs simply aren't going to be created--a business could expand, but decide it's cheaper to automate (note how you can't go in a CVS with more than one cashier these days, as they have self checkout) or get more work from existing employees. These hikes are going to screw low wage employees.

  74. New York keeps running those ads on TV in California which may be the only place worse for business.

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