Georgia Car Dealers Would Rather You Not Be Able to Buy a Tesla Car From Their Manufacturer

Georgia car salesmen want to, um, protect the public, um, strike a blow for justice, um, well, really, they just want to use the violent force of the state to stop Tesla Motors from innovating and competing against them, because they can.

As noted at Yahoo! this week:

right before Labor Day weekend….the Georgia Auto Dealer Association filed a petition with state officials seeking to cancel Tesla's license to sell its cars in the state of Georgia. 

Tesla's crime? Selling 173 cars directly from a factory-owned store located 25 miles away from Atlanta, the only Tesla retail location in Georgia. The dealers say Tesla can only sell 150 cars a year from the shop under state rules, and therefore should lose its dealer license entirely.

"It's just very simple -- we want them to comply with the law the way others are," Bill Morie, president of the Georgia dealers association, told Automotive News.

Nick Gillespie wrote earlier this year about similar regulatory troubles for Tesla in New Jersey.

UPDATE: Original headline lacked the last three words, which specifies it is merely self-sales of the car by Tesla that the dealers are trying to crush.

Comments

[NotAnotherSkippy]

TSLA and TSLA buyers benefit from all sorts of government subsidies including not paying for the roads that its vehicles drive upon. When TSLA starts lobbying to remove those tax subsidies, we'll talk

[This Machine Kills 40s]

That's about how I feel. Kinda hard for me to feel sorry for them when they're getting a handout from Uncle Sam.

[Weapon]

They are not getting any hand outs, they are getting tax reductions, like every other company in the US.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:13PM|#
"They are not getting any hand outs, they are getting tax reductions, like every other company in the US."

Oh, look! Weapon shows up to spout more fan-boi bullshit!
Haven't seen you in a while. Not enough chances to pile it up here?

[NotAnotherSkippy]

Oh good. The Musk PR dept is back. We've been through this before. They are getting forced transfers through the ZEV programs, through their BS enhanced credits for the "rapid swap" battery packs that oddly enough still aren't here (hmm...), through the $7500 buyers tax credit on a ~$100k vehicle, AND buy not paying any gas tax.

That is not "like every other company in the US."

[Weapon]

The ZEV credit market has pretty much dried up. (Every manufacturer now has their own EVs and is fully compliant)

The rapid swap credits have also been removed by CARB.

As for the 7.5k tax credit, again, it is a reduction in taxes, owed (you can buy a 23k iMiev and get same 7.5k tax credit too). Not a hand out. But as I mentioned before, all for removal of the tax credits. Though with or without removal, they will expire soon.

As for gas taxes, states are free to come up with alternative ways to charge per mile on EVs.

"That is not "like every other company in the US.""

You clearly do not know how much tax breaks corporations get do you? Hint: A LOT.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

TSLA has accumulated credits. Those retain value and will impact the TSLA bottom line in the years to come.

Yes, the $7500 credit is a reduction in taxes owed. Which means you are allowed to spend that $7500 scaled by your marginal tax rate on Musk's little toy which is a subsidy to TSLA. The credit expires at a unit threshold which at TSLA's torrid pace is still going to take a while.

So you do admit that TSLA owners get a free ride then? Good. Progress.

You clearly are still waiting for your corsage. I'm sure it'll show up soon.

[Weapon]

The credits don't accumulate value, they are losing value as more manufacturers increase their EV productions. And the credits also have an expiration date too.

And why do you keep referring Tesla by their stock ticker? Are you a short?

The tax credit will expire around 2017 at current pace. That said again, just look at your own tax returns, you take advantage of tax credits and deductions yourself. Are you saying you are taking handouts?

[Weapon]

The credits don't accumulate value, they are losing value as more manufacturers increase their EV productions. And the credits also have an expiration date too.

And why do you keep referring Tesla by their stock ticker? Are you a short?

The tax credit will expire around 2017 at current pace. That said again, just look at your own tax returns, you take advantage of tax credits and deductions yourself. Are you saying you are taking handouts?

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:54PM|#
"The credits don't accumulate value, they are losing value as more manufacturers increase their EV productions. And the credits also have an expiration date too."

Uh, I'm sure YOU believe that.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

You like the short meme ever since you were fapping away on the MIT technology review. I won't touch TSLA at all. It's a purely emotional stock with poor long term fundamentals, but there's an awful lot of momentum money to prop it up. Far more than I'm willing to fight.

TSLA has stored enough credit to continue making money for years. And just where is this massive surge in EV's? Leaf is meh. Prius is stable and those credits have/are phasing out. The rest are meh. TSLA is the only one showing a little bit of growth, i.e. "huge" unit increases relative to a paltry number to begin with.

You have no idea what's on my tax return. Recently due to selling some options, my "lucky" years would only put me in AMT which would only allow for mortgage and extremely high medical payments, neither of which apply. On my bad years I would work my way out of the AMT and qualify for others if I had them. I don't. Everyone gets the standard deduction so that's a wash. But to answer your question, if I were to be taking tax credits then yes that would be a handout. So, sorry, you lose again.

[Weapon]

I normally don't care if people are shorting but normally people refer to a company by its name, not by the stock ticker.

Tesla has not stored enough credits for anything. The ZEV market has mostly dried up, and as I mentioned there is an expiration.

As for EV growth, EV sales have pretty much been doubling. A lot of the growth has been manufacturers who never had an EV introducing an EV or promoting their EV more.

At Nissan's production levels, they have too much credits and was considering selling ZEV credits. Most manufacturers already have enough ZEV credits.

The 2 biggest buyers of ZEV credits, GM introduced Chevy Spark EV and Honda started increasing production of the Honda Fit EV.

So you know, the tax credits are not only put into your tax returns. It can also go into products you buy where someone else takes the tax credit and reduces how much you buy the product for(depends on the tax credit). Also, since you are doing stock, means you are already getting a tax exemption compared to people who get income, no?

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:28PM|#
"The ZEV credit market has pretty much dried up. (Every manufacturer now has their own EVs and is fully compliant)"

OK, weapon, what is the bullshit offered here? Did Musk get a new line of gov't instruments to trade? Did he get a band now loan from the gov't?
You have a problem: There is no car mfg who can deliver Tesla's volume at the prices listed and do anything other than go out of busness:
"Tesla said, "For 2013, we plan to exceed our objective of 20,000 Model S deliveries in 2013 and expect to achieve a gross margin of 25% in 2013"

[Weapon]

See that is kind of the issue with your assessment. You are automatically assuming that Tesla is in the wrong without doing any research.

Tesla did not get any new govt instruments to trade, nor did they get any new loans from the government.

Really now? let us use a comparable company. Porsche. They have crazy high profit margins while still delivering low volume.

Tesla is growing their profit margins by 3 methods:

1) Improving efficiency of their operations.

2) Negotiating better deals with suppliers (Tesla plans to be at 100k production rate in 2015). Making long term commitments gets you better rates. Also, the drop in battery prices. (They renegotiated their contract with Panasonic, Tesla is #1 in volume of lithium ion batteries)

3) When a manufacturer introduces a new car, the first year they always lose money because there is large initial costs, as the costs get spread out over time, the expenses are reduced.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:51PM|#
"See that is kind of the issue with your assessment."

No, that's the problem with your propaganda.
You expect people to believe that Musk has somehow added 2 and 2 and gotten 16 or so!
Fail.

[Weapon]

No, I expect people to do their own research instead of spouting nonsense mass media propaganda.

You clearly did not do your research.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:56PM|#
"No, I expect people to do their own research instead of spouting nonsense mass media propaganda."

Now, THAT is funny!

[NotAnotherSkippy]

This from the guy who claims that net margins don't matter, only GM does. Tell me again why OPEX isn't real. I could use a good fairy tail.

[Weapon]

NotAnotherSkippy, I don't see what this has to do with the discussion but I'll make this short.

The reason why gross margins is what matters is, Tesla is a rapidly growing company. For a rapidly growing company that invests all their profit into growth(kind of like Amazon). When net margins begin to matter is when the company reaches the end of its rapid growth.

Tesla right now is spending a lot of money on R&D, more than any other company(as % of revenue). This hurts their bottom line. As Tesla grows, R&D would shrink as % of revenue due to more funds being available.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:57AM|#
"NotAnotherSkippy, I don't see what this has to do with the discussion but I'll make this short."

You may as well; your lies and prevarications ain't worth a lot of band-width.
The fact remains: No car mfgr makes money on those volumes without picking the taxpayers' pockets no matter how many times you sling the bullshit.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

Yeah, no. It's hardly just R&D. It's also SG&A, and that is only going to go up as unit sales go up. Your hope for R&D salvation is just a pipe dream.

[Weapon]

Tesla's GAAP R&D spending last quarter was 108 million. GAAP revenue was 769 million.

Which means that R&D makes up 14% of revenue! Compared to competition who spends 3-6% of revenue on R&D.

Sure, SG&A is going to go up, but so will revenue. But R&D is going to hit a point where it hits diminishing returns and Tesla will lower it as % of revenue.

Tesla is also still growing their gross profits and plans to be at 28% by end of the year.

[This Machine Kills 40s]

Subsidies are handouts. And you're delusional if you believe that the ones that "every other company in the US" gets are even close to the breaks that Tesla receives.

[Sevo]

This Machine Kills 40s|9.3.14 @ 11:21PM|#
"Subsidies are handouts"

True enough, but the subsidies only pay for Musk's (non-union) plant in Fremont, where GM and Toyota couldn't use union labor to make competitive pickup trucks, for pete's sake!
No, what makes the dough for Tesla are the tradeable low-emissions credits they get for each one of the cars they pass off on suckers. If it weren't for those, Tesla would have been out of bizz a while back.
Tesla is a trader in gov't tax instruments who handles cars as a sideline.

[This Machine Kills 40s]

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

[Weapon]

The ZEV credit market has dried up.

As far as NUMMI plant goes, the biggest issue with NUMMI plant was it was too far from their supply chains. When government took over GM, they had them dump NUMMI and Toyota followed shortly after.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:41PM|#
"The ZEV credit market has dried up."

And it really will, once Tesla has used up the millions of dollars worth they've rat-holed!
Gee, weapon! What a, uh, liar...

[Weapon]

Are you trying to make a point? EV sales are increasing at a pretty decent pace, ZEV credit market dried up in same way as supply and demand works. The supply of ZEV credits is so abundant, manufacturers don't need to buy more, the little more they buy is in so small quantity it is irrelevant.

The ZEV credits also have an expiration. So storing them up does no good.

[Sevo]

Weapon, you been busted.
Try your dissembling elsewhere; it won't fly here.
Yes, we get you're either an employee or a simple ignoramus who buys all that crap.
We don't; we know that Tesla's product is crap and it would not exist without Musk picking my pocket. And I resent it.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

According the the CARB itself:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/z.....redits.htm

As of 9/13 ("Reviewed April 2014"-- whatever that means) TSLA had transferred out (sold) more than 1300 credits. GM and Chrysler had transferred in (bought) more than 500.

And:

How far into the future do these credit balances cover the manufacturers' ZEV requirement?
Each manufacturer is unique in its strategy of compliance with the ZEV Regulation. It is not possible to predict how and when these credit balances will be spent over the coming years due to the complexity and flexibility of the regulation. There are also various mechanisms in the ZEV Regulation which limit how credits are spent. These balances will be taken into account in future amendments to the regulation.

[Weapon]

Tesla did claim a lot of ZEV credits in 2012 and early 2013 when the ZEV credit market was in its peak. Since then, the ZEV credit market has dried up mostly.

In June 2013, GM has introduced the Chevy Spark EV and july 2013, Chrylser introduced the Fiat 500e.

There are different kinds of ZEV credits, the ZEV credits here are the pure ZEV credits which expire in 3 years.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:26AM|#
..."There are different kinds of ZEV credits, the ZEV credits here are the pure ZEV credits which expire in 3 years."

PUSH that goal post, Weapon! Maybe someone will buy your steaming pile of crap!

[Weapon]

It is not pushing the goal post. There are multiple forms of credits.

ZEV, PZEV, NEV and etc. These credits can be converted to ZEV. But the requirement is about 14% of those credits must be non-converted pure ZEV credits. (Tesla only generates pure ZEV credits)

If you actually did your research you would know this.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:46AM|#
"It is not pushing the goal post. There are multiple forms of credits."

Of course not! Trying to deflect attention from the rent-seeking by examining trivia has nothing to do with moving the goal posts!
Why, any honest reader can easily see you're simply a sleazy propagandist!

[Weapon]

Subsidies are not hand outs, it depends on the type of subsidy. A reduction in taxes owed would not be considered a hand out.

""every other company in the US" gets are even close to the breaks that Tesla receives."

You are delusional, a lot of companies get MORE breaks than Tesla receives.

But I am all for removal of all subsidies for everyone.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

Well that sure showed him. If they're not a handout, then why did we need them in the first place?

Does it reduce the effective price the consumer pays? Check

Looks like a duck and it's quacking.

[Weapon]

You are making no sense, Tesla has 0 say in the tax credit to consumers. The tax credit was passed by the Bush Administration to reduce dependence on foreign oil.

I don't see how Tesla is responsible in any way for what the government decides to pass.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:39PM|#
"I don't see how Tesla is responsible in any way for what the government decides to pass."

Of COURSE not! Why Elon was just standing there with his brand new car company, planning to compete with all the others when that pile of cash just fell into his pocket!
What a lucky guy (and what a imbecile of a commenter)

[Weapon]

The tax credit does not go to Tesla, so I don't see how it goes to his pocket. On top of that, Tesla owners are not the biggest recipients of the tax credit, that would be GM and Nissan owners.

If you have evidence of Tesla or Musk having any influence on the tax credit, feel free to post it. Looking at sites which disclose lobbying and looking at Musk's and Tesla's contributions history, I see no such evidence.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:03AM|#
"The tax credit does not go to Tesla, so I don't see how it goes to his pocket."

Yeah, bribes to suckers never benefit those who are trying to get the suckers to buy!
Weapon, you're not helping yourself.
---------------
"If you have evidence of Tesla or Musk having any influence on the tax credit, feel free to post it"

Hey, folks, look over THERE!
Funny!

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:33PM|#
"Subsidies are not hand outs, it depends on the type of subsidy."

No, weapon, it depends on the liar claiming so.

[Dances-with-Trolls]

subsidy noun (Concise Encyclopedia)

Financial assistance, either through direct payments or through indirect means such as price cuts and favourable contracts, to a person or group in order to promote a public objective. Subsidies to transportation, housing, agriculture, mining, and other industries have been instituted on the grounds that their preservation or expansion is in the public interest. Subsidies to the arts, sciences, humanities, and religion also exist in many nations where the private economy is unable to support them. Examples of direct subsidies include payments in cash or in kind, while more-indirect subsidies include governmental provision of goods or services at prices below the normal market price, governmental purchase of goods or services at prices above the market price, and tax concessions. Although subsidies exist to promote the public welfare, they result in either higher taxes or higher prices for consumer goods. Some subsidies, such as protective tariffs, may also encourage the preservation of inefficient producers. A subsidy is desirable only if its effects increase total benefits more than total costs (see cost-benefit analysis).

So, a hand-out.

[Weapon]

"Although subsidies exist to promote the public welfare, they result in either higher taxes or higher prices for consumer goods"

So by that definition, please explain to me how a reduction in taxes owed results in higher taxes or higher prices for consumers?

[This Machine Kills 40s]

Go ahead and define "a lot" for me. I'll wait for the numbers.

At any rate, when a company advertises a $7.5K tax break as a way to cover a down payment on their product (that's just the federal subsidy, never mind what some states are offering), it becomes apparent that they wouldn't be able to stand on the merit of their product alone. How you don't see that as a failure of the company is beyond my comprehension.

[Sevo]

"At any rate, when a company advertises a $7.5K tax break as a way to cover a down payment on their product (that's just the federal subsidy, never mind what some states are offering), it becomes apparent that they wouldn't be able to stand on the merit of their product alone."

The cost has already been reduced by some $5K (I think) in CA, since Musk trades the LEV credits off to companies selling performance cars.
Musk is also handed a freebie, in that no union dares touch him in CA (for pete's sake!). He also has charging stations with "free" electricity for those dumb enough to believe it (Hey, Weapon!).
Pretty sure he's also still getting the absolutely fraudulent 'quick charge' payments for a supposed battery change that has never been shown to work.
There's more; suffice to say Tesla is the 2nd Government Motors. It would not exist without your contribution. And Obo sends his thanks!

[This Machine Kills 40s]

Christ Minerva. So LEV credits, no union bullshit, "free" power, and a hot-swap that isn't. And then some. I'll hand it to Musk, at least he knows how to take full advantage of the system.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

Don't forget the DOE loans that kept them floating for years.

[Weapon]

NotAnotherSkippy, You mean the DOE loans that Ford lobbied in and took a majority of? Those DOE loans? The ones that Ford used to escape bankruptcy?

Tesla officially received the loan in Jan 2012. They paid the loan in full on May 2013.

So 1 year and 4 months is "years?". They could have taken a loan from anyone, the DOE just offered the lowest rate at the time. It had no impact on Tesla one way or the other.

But don't worry, Ford will pay us back in 15 years, probably?

[NotAnotherSkippy]

Oh that is rich. First you think that I'm defending the Big 3 subsidies. I'm not. Second, you think that the federal loan program kept Ford out of BK. That is hilarious. Mulally(sp?) was brilliant in building up a pile of cash prior to the RE bust. He even leveraged the Ford brand for billions. Don't kid yourself that the ~$5BB they got from the feds was even close to the other instruments they raised.

TSLA's DOE loan was awarded in 2010. 2012 my ass. The even violated the covenant and had to get a waiver from the DOE which included an accelerated repayment schedule but not as accelerated as they were able to do with private equity sucker money. But, hey, free markets, man.

DOE gave them a subsidized rate and they even used more tax gimmicks to "repay" the interest. What a guy!

Again, if you think Ford somehow proves your point, try again.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:43AM|#
"NotAnotherSkippy, You mean the DOE loans that Ford lobbied in and took a majority of? Those DOE loans?"

And look over here! They did it too!

[Sevo]

..."I'll hand it to Musk, at least he knows how to take full advantage of the system."

"Political Clout Pays Off Big for Elon Musk's SpaceX"
http://freebeacon.com/politics.....ks-spacex/

"SolarCity is the most interesting of the names on the list. Its Chairman, Elon Musk, is an Obama supporter who has used taxpayer funds, not once, not twice but three times to enrich himself."
http://floppingaces.net/2012/1.....ader-post/

There's no lack...

[Weapon]

California offers 2.5k, not 5k.

And again, the ZEV credit market is dried up.

And when Tesla was selling credits, they were not selling to performance car companies. Most performance car companies belong to larger brands, those that don't are low volume and are exempt from the ZEV regulations.

And UAW tried to recruit in Tesla a while back. No employee was interested. Silicon Valley in general has been free of unions because they treat their employees well, offer good benefits and good wages. Hence why unions were never able to penetrate silicon valley.

And yes, the Tesla Superchargers are free for life with the purchase of a Tesla Model S 85kwh. The economics is there if you did the math.

And no, the provision for quick battery place replacement has been removed from CARB a few month ago.

I thought Ford was the 2nd government motors?

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:16AM|#
"California offers 2.5k, not 5k."

Oh, well, in THAT case!

[Weapon]

I see all companies advertising tax credits and rebates available. Again as a public company, a company does what is in their own interest.

It is the failure of government in passing these laws, not companies for taking advantage of things that happen to be there.

[Sevo]

OK, for you amusement this evening, we have the noted laugh riot Weapon! Put your hands together for Weapon!

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:08AM|#
"I see all companies advertising tax credits and rebates available. Again as a public company, a company does what is in their own interest."
Uh, no. 'Tax credits' and rebates are simply a company discounting the cost of their product. And either you are so stupid you didn't know that or you're hoping no one will cop to your scam.

"It is the failure of government in passing these laws, not companies for taking advantage of things that happen to be there."
Yeah, and when a company is designed from the ground up to suck every taxpayer dollar they can, well, even the dumbest don't buy the story.
Well, I guess that's not quite true; Weapon does.

[This Machine Kills 40s]

Put your hands together for Weapon!

*slow clap*

Real question is: paid shill for Musk, remorseful buyer looking for moral validation, or True Believer?

My money's on the middle one, but hey, I've been wrong before.

[Sevo]

"Real question is: paid shill for Musk, remorseful buyer looking for moral validation, or True Believer?"

Dunno.
NAS found Weapon pitching the propaganda on another site, and no one I know has found the handle elsewhere, so it seems a one-trick-pony. And some of the prose seemed to change the last time it was here pitching fraudulent accounting, so I thought is was a 'name' handed off to the next paid agent in line.
It is certainly possible that stupidity exists at that level absent direct payment to promote it.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

He pops up on every board I see that posts on Musk, but with a special love for TSLA postings. My money is #1, definitely.

[Weapon]

Sevo, to me it sounds like you have a personal grudge against Tesla and against companies producing jobs in america. Let me guess, you work for a Chinese auto company?

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:29AM|#
"Sevo, to me it sounds like you have a personal grudge against Tesla and against companies producing jobs in america"

OK, now put your hands together for the FLAG! Hooray for the red, white and blue!
something, something, last refuge, something...

[Weapon]

sevo, one of these days you will actually contribute to the discussion instead of trolling, one of these days.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:48AM|#
"sevo, one of these days you will actually contribute to the discussion instead of trolling, one of these days."

Yeah, calling slimy liars on bullshit really doesn't add nearly as much as slinging that bullshit, right?

[NotAnotherSkippy]

Yeah, like the subsidies don't come at the expense of other companies and consumers/taxpayers in the US.

Tell me the story about how we saved American Sugar from the evil foreigners again, daddy!

[Sevo]

NotAnotherSkippy|9.4.14 @ 1:00AM|#
"Tell me the story about how we saved American Sugar from the evil foreigners again, daddy!"

OK, bets on the table:
SEVO sounds "Chinese" to Weapon, yes of no!

[NotAnotherSkippy]

To be honest, dude, I don't know what the hell it sounds like, but definitely not Chinese. 🙂

[Sevo]

NAS,
No one here reading Weapon's crap any more; I'm'a pour a shot of bourbon and watch the city lights.
Like Rabaul in WWII, Weapon is always good for some target practice.

[Weapon]

NotAnotherSkippy, It depends on the subsidy in question. A non-refundable tax credit, no. ZEV credits yes. subsidies in itself is a generic word that encompasses many things so it boils down to what exactly.

But again, I am all for removing all subsidies for EVERYONE.

[Weapon]

Sorry, in what world does 2 wrongs ever make a right?

I also think it is silly to want Tesla to lobby to remove the subsidies. Tesla is a public company, which means Tesla can actually get sued by the shareholders for using money lobby for removal of the subsidies.

Better yet, it would be better if lobbying in itself was illegal.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:11PM|#
"Sorry, in what world does 2 wrongs ever make a right?"
Yeah, weapon, the gov't is forcing Musk to take that money, right?

[NotAnotherSkippy]

The PR dept. ran out of articles on the register for weapy to get weepy over. And he's still waiting to be asked to the prom...

[Sevo]

And the propagandist is claiming there are two 'wrongs'!
Well, yes, and if the first 'wrong' hadn't been supported by twits like him voting for lying bastards like Obo, there would be no second 'wrong'.

[Weapon]

Trolling much? First of all, I did not vote for Obama. I didn't vote at all actually(for president). Neither Obama nor Romney was worth voting for. If you include the people from the primaries, the only person I would go to vote for would probably be Ron Paul.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:37PM|#
"Trolling much?"

YOU ask that question?
Fuck off.

[Weapon]

Musk does not take any money. The tax credit goes to the consumer. It is not up to him.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

So if the consumer were to get a 100% refundable tax credit, do you still think Musk receives no benefit? Think harder.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.3.14 @ 11:29PM|#
"Musk does not take any money. The tax credit goes to the consumer. It is not up to him."

Of course! Lowering the price by bribing people to buy a piece of crap doesn't benefit the maker of that piece of crap at all!
Weapon, do they offer brain transplants where you live?

[Weapon]

Right, because a 6-10% reduction in price is going to bribe someone.

The 7.5k matters most to GM Volt, Ford Focus EV, Fiat 500e, Nissan Leaf, iMeiv and etc where it makes up 20 - 30% of the price.

To Tesla who is supply capped and can't keep up with demand, it is irrelevant.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:34AM|#
"Right, because a 6-10% reduction in price is going to bribe someone."

So the bribe isn't enough? Well, tell Elon's fixers to get on it right now!

[Weapon]

Sevo, is english not your first language? I clearly said that the tax credit is irrelevant. Tesla will sell the same amount of cars with or without it.

Right now they are selling every car they produce.

[Sevo]

Weapon|9.4.14 @ 12:51AM|#
..."I clearly said that the tax credit is irrelevant."

Yes, you lied about that also. Did you have a point?

[KDN]

Right, because a 6-10% reduction in price is going to bribe someone.

I clearly said that the tax credit is irrelevant. Tesla will sell the same amount of cars with or without it.

Someone needs to retake micro.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

*Yawn* Oh that little chestnut again.

Just fed the kid so my shift is over. You can keep earning your $0.10/post with Sevo.

[Hugh Akston]

So is there any supposed reason for the 150 car per year limit beyond naked protectionism?

[Being Waterboarded]

Come on Hugh - of course there is. First, there's the nak... wait. Of course, there is always the na...

Um... No.

[Ghetto Slovak Goatherder]

"It's just very simple -- we want them to comply with the law the way others are," Bill Morie, president of the Georgia dealers association, told Automotive News.

"Speaking of progressive policies, Orren," said Taggart, "you might ask
yourself whether at a time of transportation shortages, when so many railroads are going bankrupt and large areas are left without rail service, whether it is in the public interest to tolerate wasteful duplication of services and the destructive, dog-eat-dog competition of newcomers in territories where established companies have historical priority."

"Well, now," said Boyle pleasantly, "that seems to be an interesting question to consider. I might discuss it with a few friends in the National Alliance of Railroads."

The proposal which they passed was known as the "Anti-dog-eat-dog Rule." When they voted for it, the members of the National Alliance of Railroads sat in a large hall in the deepening twilight of a late autumn evening and did not look at one another.

[Ghetto Slovak Goatherder]

The National Alliance of Railroads was an organization formed, it was claimed, to protect the welfare of the railroad industry. This was to be achieved by developing methods of co-operation for a common purpose; this was to be achieved by the pledge of every member to subordinate his own interests to those of the industry as a whole; the interests of the industry as a whole were to be determined by a majority vote, and every member was committed to abide by any decision the majority chose to make.

"Members of the same profession or of the same industry should stick
together," the organizers of the Alliance had said. "We all have the same problems, the same interests, the same enemies. We waste our energy fighting one another, instead of presenting a common front to the world.

We can all grow and prosper together, if we pool our efforts." "Against
whom is this Alliance being organized?" a skeptic had asked. The answer had been: "Why, it's not 'against' anybody. But if you want to put it that way, why, it's against shippers or supply manufacturers or anyone who might try to take advantage of us. Against whom is any union organized?" "That's what I wonder about," the skeptic had said.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Hard to feel sorry for them given their suckling at the taxpayer's teat, but I guess two wrongs don't make a right.

[Sevo]

Yeah, Bo, right up your alley! You get to talk out of both your faces!

[Red Rocks Rockin]

Yeah, this is one of those situations where it's possible to condemn Musk's relentless crony capitalism and point out that his sales shouldn't be capped because of FYTW policies.

If Tesla was selling three-cylinder econoboxes instead of $70K+ electric cars, I doubt the GADA would be getting their knickers in a twist over it.

[Sevo]

Red Rocks Rockin|9.3.14 @ 11:22PM|#
"Yeah, this is one of those situations where it's possible to condemn Musk's relentless crony capitalism and point out that his sales shouldn't be capped because of FYTW policies."

Agreed, but it's pretty much irrelevant as there would be no Tesla without rent-seeking.

[Dances-with-Trolls]

I dunno, I doubt that GADA wants a car manufacturer of any type to be permitted to make direct sales.

[Sevo]

I'm sure, and if it (hypothetically) came up with one who sells cars instead of gov't financial instruments, I'd be right on it.

[Sevo]

"Georgia Car Dealers Would Rather You Not Be Able to Buy a Tesla Car"

So would most US taxpayers if they knew what THEY were paying for the things!
I don't know why Reason runs articles on the outfit as if it were other than the worst pile of rent-seekers since United Fruit.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Did you have a similar stance with the NLRB messing with Boeing?

[Sevo]

Seems there's a pile of bullshit landed here.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Boeing isn't a rent seeker magnitudes more than Tesla?

[Sevo]

Hmm, seems another pile of carp landed here! What slimy creature left that?
Bo, I got a hint; get lost.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Shorter Sevo: I'm too drunk or stupid to reply substantively.

Also, carp? Been fishing today?

[Sevo]

Oh, look! Poor two-faced slimy Bo is begging for attention by being a grammar Nazi!
How original. Get lost.

[This Machine Kills 40s]

Ugh, carp. Catfish I can stand, at least they can be made to taste decent. Carp are just giant brown goldfish. Yuck.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

Yes and Boeing deserves to be slapped down as well. I just have a special place in my heart for a company whose virtually entire existence has been based on government support. Tell me how often you see a Reason spot on Musk's suckling compared to Boeing though.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

They talk about both.

Boeing

http://reason.com/blog/2012/05.....-subsidies

http://reason.com/blog/2010/07.....rom-boeing

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Tesla

http://reason.com/blog/2013/09.....rs-and-the

[NotAnotherSkippy]

+1 for the Hinkle and I missed the Bailey piece last November. Fair enough.

[SIV]

GADA wants to make damn sure Ford and Toyota or any other manufacturer, large or small, doesn't get the idea they have a right to sell their own cars direct to the consumer. This is much like the "three tier system" for alcohol, only slightly more competitive and open to new entrants. I assume the auto dealer franchising system is present in all states.

[Agile Cyborg]

Free market capitalism has rarely existed- if ever. It's a fable- just like it's unwanted Libertarian cousin.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

World peace has rarely existed either, should people not have it as an ideal?

[Agile Cyborg]

No. It will never exist. Period.

Free Market capitalism will never exist. Period.

Ideals are fine until faced with reality.

In the meantime we can oppose, resist, and push for improvement. But this isn't necessarily idealistic. It's another form of survival.

[Dances-with-Trolls]

So HuffPo hires Donte Stallworth, a 9/11 truther, to cover national security issues. Awesome.

[This Machine Kills 40s]

Kinda par for the course, ain't it?

[SIV]

This isn't some special law that just applies to Tesla. If you are a manufacturer who sells more than 150 cars in GA you have to sell them through a franchised dealer. My point being don't feel good about it because Tesla are rent-seeking fucks too. The GADA is a criminal syndicate. They got the state to start collecting sales tax on private party used car sales a few years ago. The newspapers and TV advocated for it hard telling voters they were saving big money and creating jobs by having to pay 7% of fair market value instead of just $18 to transfer title.

[SIV]

(newspapers and TV being the biggest recipients of GADA advertising dollars)

[Sevo]

SIV|9.3.14 @ 11:37PM|#
"My point being don't feel good about it because Tesla are rent-seeking fucks too."

Not feeling good about it, but not about to grant Musk any sympathy either.
Live by the sword...

[SIV]

Every volume production auto manufacturer and every consumer is fucked by this very same law. It isn't an "anti-Tesla" law. The headline is quite misleading. Georgia auto dealers would be happy to sell you a Tesla they just don't want Tesla cutting them out of a piece of the action.

[Sevo]

SIV|9.3.14 @ 11:49PM|#
"Every volume production auto manufacturer and every consumer is fucked by this very same law. It isn't an "anti-Tesla" law. The headline is quite misleading. Georgia auto dealers would be happy to sell you a Tesla they just don't want Tesla cutting them out of a piece of the action."

I understand, but Tesla is not a car maker. They exist to trade government financial instruments; that's how they make their money.
If this were about selling cars, I'd be right on it.

[SIV]

If Tesla could break the franchised auto dealer system I'd consider them heroes.
In reality, I'm sure they would rather be like Uber and carve out a narrow exception for themselves while using the state to limit future competition.

[GILMORE]

Can I hate them both equally? Both are government bloodsuckers (and TSLA is a mega-bloodsucker), and it seems they simply suck on different arteries.

[SIV]

GADA makes me pay sales tax on a private party used car sale so you should hate them more than Tesla.

[GILMORE]

Really?

that's fucked up. The state collects taxes every time cars change hands? not just from the dealer?

What if someone sells a car in-family? (i did this twice) - change of title.

[SIV]

I think it is .5% for in family with hassle and documentation (burdensome in the city, no questions asked in the sticks) but not if they're out of state. The law is totally fucked and designed to disrupt and suppress the PP used car market "incentivising" trade-ins and licensed dealer purchases. The state's cut is the actual tax when people do PP anyways.

I'm shopping a late model 370z and this shit is gonna cost me $2k and/or leather seats.

FWIW, this is one of the top reasons I'm totally opposed to the "fair tax". There is NO FUCKING WAY it is going to exempt existing houses, used cars, and any other high dollar shit on the secondary market except where special carve outs are instituted for "high profile stakeholders" or whatever the appropos euphemism is.

[Sevo]

SIV|9.4.14 @ 12:02AM|#
"GADA makes me pay sales tax on a private party used car sale so you should hate them more than Tesla."

In CA, it is the DMV. Take your title in to change ownership, and they take a vig.
Now, maybe the dealers promoted that, but I'm sure it didn't take a whole lot of promoting to get the DMV to do so.
And I don't see where there was a dealer incentive to do so.

[grrizzly]

It's like the Iran-Iraq war.

[SIV]

I'm against whoever the GADA is allied with.

[Corning]

When I start a car company I am going to name it after a racist who espoused eugenics.

Is Hitler copyrighted?

[Wasteland Wanderer]

No, but Volkswagen might take issue with you claiming their creator.