The Independents

Tonight on The Independents: The United States of Welfare, With Peter Suderman, Tim Carney, and an All-Star Cast of Experts


Feel the beat on the tamborine, oh yeah. |||

More than 100 million Americans now receive means-tested assistance from the federal government, according to data released this week by the Census. Scores of millions more receive old-age entitlements, targeted tax exemptions, and straight-up corporatist handouts. With a recovery still limping along, is this any way to run an economy?

That's the topic of tonight's episode of The Independents (Fox Business Network, 9 p.m. ET, 6 p.m. PT, with re-airs three and five hours later), titled "The United States of Welfare." 

The show kicks off with Heritage Foundation Chief Economist Stephen Moore providing an overview of the history behind, successes of, and challenges to the Clinton/Gingrich 1990s welfare reform. The Wall Street Journal's Jason Riley, author of Please Stop Helping Us: How Liberals Make it Harder for Blacks to Succeed, will then come on to talk about the ballyhooed "culture of dependency." Beloved Reason Senior Editor Peter Suderman arrives to talk about Medicaid and Obamacare, followed by Cato Institute Senior Fellow Michael Tanner, who will break down the recent unsustainable spike in disability claims.

Anti-corporatist crusader Tim Carney of the Washington Examiner will declaim corporate welfare of the type dished out by the Export-Import Bank; Tom Palmer of Cato and the Atlas Economic Research Foundation will discuss the differences between (and interrelationship of) private and public charity, and the co-hosts will present their own ideas for welfare reform going forward. It's a richly informative program that will give you knowledge and intellectual ammunition no matter where you come out on the question of transfers to the poor and non-poor alike.

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  1. Welch must make 2:30PM tee time.

    1. He’s off to assist President Obama in his efforts to bring the ISIS killers to justice and get to the bottom of the rioting in Ferguson.

      /cheap shot

    2. He does his weekly shopping at Whole Food on Friday afternoon. (Cosmo!!!!)

      1. ooh, that’s harsh.

    3. Hello.

      Well there’s the thread all hidden behind 2:30pm.

  2. *yawn*

  3. Man, you guys sure don’t like being around on Friday afternoon!

    1. who does?

      “Summer hours” in NYC companies i’ve worked in generally had people out of the door by 4pm…

      but in some positions – sales, executive-level people… they’d be gone by *noon*. They’d come in, make some calls, shuffle some meetings for the following week, then BOOM hit the golf courses. In some cases (like in the insurance industry) – Friday Golf is as much ‘business’ as anything else.

      I of course joke about Matt. Libertarians don’t golf. they belong to Fantasy Baseball Leagues.

      1. they belong to Fantasy Baseball Leagues.

        I imagine libertarians spending their Friday afternoons at Medieval Times at the all you can buffet.

  4. Can I safely conclude that, by calling him a “Anti-corporatist crusader”, Tim Carney is the good Carney?

    1. It would be safe to assume that if he were called a “wife beating pederast”.

  5. Boy, am I glad this was posted early. Last night I shared artisanal ice for your cocktail drinking pleasure. Now, I can pursue my dream of having Wil Wheaton on TI for a gaming episode. Guests for this episode of TT include Freddie Wong and Rod Roddenberry.

    1. You should link to episodes I havent seen.

  6. Is the head of the Export-Import Bank Art Vandalay?

    And what do we make of Welch quoting ABBA in the alt-text?

    1. Is that from ‘Dancing Queen’?

      I myself love a cryptic allusion. But that shit it over my head.

  7. OT: Does anyone here make their own bagels? If so, would you care to share the recipe? We’ve tried two off the internet and so far, they’ve sucked ballz. My wife does a lot of baking so it’s not her skill that’s the at issue.

    1. from my limited understanding as a NY’r, making decent bagels require both magical jewish trolls, and NYC water.

      the time i actually watched them being made, I learned a few things:

      – the dough needs to be ‘pre-proofed’ overnight
      – then boiled in a vat with some magical additive in the water
      – then actually baked. quickly too. like 5mins

      No one was speaking english while i watched this so as far as i know they were issuing orders to the jewish trolls.

      1. Damn, I don’t have any Jew-trolls among my orphans and henchfolk.

      2. Yeah, I’m gonna buy NYC water – not. “Oooh, look Mom. My bottle has a severed finger in it.”

        1. New York City water comes from upstate and is actually pretty decent. Unless you live in a shithole you are unlikely to get a finger in your water.

        2. I dont think ‘importing NYC water‘ is what is entirely necessary so much as aiming to get the ph/salinity/mineral content in some spectrum that it does some magical thing with the dough.

          maybe make the dough with bottled instead of tap water and see what happens?

          i don’t know what the fuck it is, but the people who seem to care make a big deal about the water thing.

      3. Montreal water is better for bagels

  8. Does that 100 million include all government workers and all those who work for government contracts? Because that’s welfare too.

    As Mr. Green said in Clue, “is there anyone here who doesn’t earn their living from the government in one way or another?”

  9. Because this is thread is kind of our Late Night Links when it gets bumped:

    Reason LA Meetup

    September 7th. 11 AM. Watch Football. Or Don’t. The NAP doesn’t allow me to do anything beyond that!

    Rush Street in Culver City. We’re doing brunch, bitches!

    1. You know you’re old when your doctor prescribes Align.

        1. “If you can’t get to 80 by a comfortable road, don’t go.”

  10. So, I was reading about the steady state theory of the universe. In order for the matter density of the universe to stay the same, the equivalent of 1 atom of hydrogen per cubic meter of space every 300,000 years.

    Although the steady state theory has fallen out of favor, I’m still intrigued by this idea. It could be that the law of the conservation of matter is just an approximation, and that over very long periods, the amount of matter slowly increases.

    This solves a problem I have always wondered about- if matter cannot be created or destroyed, that implies the universe is ageless, but an ageless universe is impossible because an infinite amount of time would have to pass before the present arrived. But if the universe had a beginning, that implies that matter sprang into existence which violates the law of the conservation of matter.

    Here’s the article I got the above figure from.

    /bong gurgles

      1. this is why I stick with the Norse cosmogony. Its all about the gap between Muspelheim and Niflheim, dude. And a liberal sprinkling of Ice Trolls.

    1. The link you provided is a wormhole leading to an alternate dimension where websites don’t exist

      1. Duuuudeee……

      2. [spooky music plays, weird junk flies by]

        You’re traveling into an area that’s adjacent to region that’s beside a location- the sort of place that might have a weird mirror or some kind of monster. These are just some examples. It could also be something really stupid, like Tony. At the signpost up ahead, your next stop is the Derpy Zone!

    2. Except that Einstein’s famous equation proves that energy and matter are equivalent. At the moment of the Big Bang all matter was in the form of energy. As the energy density decreased matter began to form. Matter can be converted to energy by the same equation.

      … Hobbit

      1. OK, but even if you say that energy cannot be made or destroyed, that leads into the infinite regress problem again.

        1. There is a version that goes something like,

          Maximum energy (BB) to expanding universe until gravity wins out and expansion stops. Gravity pulls everything back into a singularity until maximum energy (all matter converted) then the next Big Bang, starting the whole thing all over again. An endless cycle of universes.

          Whew! You’ve got me dragging stuff up from college, over 30 years ago!

          … Hobbit

          1. But how could there be an endless number of universes before this one? I can accept that the universe may collapse and re-expand, and this may have happened before. I can’t see how it could have happened an endless number of times.

            It’s like pendulum- it swings back and forth, but at some point, it had start moving.

            I can understand a physical loop but not a temporal loop.

            1. “It’s like pendulum- it swings back and forth, but at some point, it had start moving.”

              You’re letting your personal experience with entropy bias your judgement. The universe had to have a beginning because all things have to have a beginning. But that’s just starting with the axiom that all things have a beginning. It’s really no different than the world before relativity compared to the world after relativity. The rules changed because the (verifiable) assumptions changed.

          2. Inflation mucks all of that up. I’m not a cosmologist and I haven’t studied the equations, but I recall that something like 25kg is sufficient to serve as the seed for a new universe.

            Based on current observations we live in a hyperbolic universe. Expansion is accelerating so gravity has already lost. This is all being driven by the completely unknown dark energy, so who knows what the future holds.

  11. Who is this blonde bimbo on Cavuto? she was on the indys once…

  12. OMFG! ISIS is Al Qaeda times 10?


    1. yeah, that was the bimbo referenced above.

      It was peak dumb for a second there.

  13. Prediction: No way this gets bumped.

  14. Kennedy wearing the decorations of her many conquests.

  15. That’s a psychedelic top, baby. Let’s shag.

  16. Work requirement. Maybe Moore hasn’t heard but they abolished slavery a few years ago.

  17. What suit is Welch wearing? Did he borrow it from Suderman?

  18. When you can get welfare to the extent that it is equivalent or greater than what you would make working, there is no incentive to work.

  19. Maybe Moore hasn’t heard of multipliers.

  20. Fun fact: the word stimulus in Latin refers to a stick uses to drive an animal forward.

    Giddy up, ol’ economy! Hee-yah!

  21. I’m just going to come right out and say it. This guy picked the wrong tie.

  22. “Give a man a fish, and he’ll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he’ll eat for a lifetime.” lie his ass off about how big the one he hooked and lost was.

  23. Way to address disability outside its designated segment.

  24. Remember the good old days? Back when people actually watched and commented on this show? Remember 700 comment nights?


    1. Hm. Sounds like Spot the Not! is due for a comeback.

    2. I just assume, everyone is too drunk or stoned to find the keyboard these days.

  25. They’re going after food stamps? I didn’t realize < i The Independents was racist.

    1. Since more whites than minorities benefit from welfare and food stamps (not by percentage, but by sheer numbers) I’ve long suggested that whites and (especially) able-bodied white men should be ineligible for the dole. That would cut the expense by more than half and would not affect helpless women or minorities (who evidently need help from Uncle Sam to survive). Of course, the progressives call me a monster for suggesting such a thing…

      1. You’re an Uncle Tom to whatever race you are.

        1. Thats Uncle Thomas Mahoney Fitzgerald Gilmore to you

  26. Now is as good a time as any to pimp my latest letter to the editor:


    1. They may not catch the sarcasm.

  27. This guy sounds like Eddie Murphy’s white guy voice.

  28. TI stalled there for a second.

    1. Shocked to silence by FACT

      Its a pretty simple statement – “the poor” are richer now than in the 1960s, yet crime is far far far higher.

      I can imagine a hyper-prog would argue that “Inequality” is greater, and that therefore… something something…

      which i think is less convincing on a gut-level – do ‘the poor’ kill each other because Rich People drive past and it sends them into fits of despair?

      I think drugs are a factor; but Riley’s point about “the family unit” decline is pretty solidly convincing.

      Tell it to a Feminist. Single Moms are the reason black men go to jail in such high #s. That ought to make for a entertaining conversation.

      1. I once told a prog that single motherhood, poverty, and crime often cluster together.

        Her reply was that correlation is not causation. This woman had a Masters in puh-sychology.

        The Derpristocrats!

        1. It’s almost like all of those things are caused by a common thing…whoops, getting Watson’d.

      2. He was pretty good, but two things stood out for me, and not in a good way. The War on Drugs was notably absent with respect to crime rates, and he totally dismissed corporate welfare.

  29. Has the definition of “poverty” remained consistent since the 60s?

    1. on a relative basis, more or less.

      here’s how the census does it

  30. I’m reading a Galbraith’s The Underdeveloped Country. Basically, it’s all poverty’s fault.

  31. The Independents Attire Review, 22 August 2014

    Battle of Bosworth-Edition

    – Kennedy: This is new *and* interesting. The ‘black collection’ has hitherto been limited to long/short-sleeved t-shirts. But this is an actual ‘dress’ with pastel jewelry embroidered(?) into the collar. Its different and does cool, theatrical things with Kennedy’s dark hair and pale skin. Winner! Surprised we’ve never seen this before.

    – Matt: Dapper and unchangeable? Well one often-changing detail has been the Incredibly Disappearing Collar issue. We’re not sure what it is, because we can’t associate it with any specific suit-jacket. But every now and then, Matt’s jacket seems to ride up the back of his neck such that it swallows his shirt collar. Its weird and it looks like he’s slouching when he’s not. Otherwise, everything tonight is Simpatico.

    – Kmele: Kmele, Master of Collars, is rocking a wide-spread (almost french?) # which appears to have button-tips? Can’t see. As we have noted previously, many Americans (*See: Matt) restrict themselves to very few shirt-collar types and rarely deviate from them, which has the effect of making a shirt and tie seem endlessly ‘business-y’, and kills the potential variety of looks available.


  32. Did someone hit Suder-Man with an elephant dart? He’s barely on pace for a thousand words per minute.

  33. They’re not any healthier…

    It’s because they didn’t follow flotus’s approved diet plan.

  34. Leave ’em wanting more, Suderman.

  35. Bonus

    – Suderman: Dapper! He seems to have shaved his shave to the point that its sent him back in time to his early 20s. Jacket is not gapping, his shirt and tie work together, and everything seems cool and collected. Only note: what’s the deal with the giant lapel buttonhole loop? It stands out so starkly that it almost seems like its been reinforced to be a regular mic-wearer. Perhaps a giveaway that its a cheapie. Anyway, you should have borrowed one of Kmele’s masonic totems or something to cover that up. Overall A-

    1. e.g. How to be ‘masonic and satanic‘ at the same time..

  36. We’ve changed the definition of what it means to have a disability.

    Speaking of, I have this twinge in my wrist…

    1. Nice try.

      You have ebola.

  37. I didn’t comment on that segment in protest of its usurpation of the Topical Strom Thurman.

  38. Tim Carney recently had a lipectomy

  39. Also = Tim Carney shows why Brown Suits, particularly dark brown, are Always On Sale.

    Dont. Just don’t ever do it.

  40. tanking from the regular taxpayer and giving to big corporations

    To create JOBS! (or something)

  41. Where are our gift baskets?

  42. “Open a laundrette and call it Steve”?

    Did she just say that?

      1. Im assuming this is what she’s talking about

  43. Is tom palmer the guy who used to wear lapel-less suits that made him look like he was from the Galactic Federation?

  44. OT: John Stossel – Checkpoint America

    This popped up and I thought you a-holes might appreciate it.

  45. sigh

    She confused welfare with the entire healthcare system?

  46. (Trigger Warning: 90s joke)
    Monica Lewinski knows all about servicing the bureaucracy.

  47. Well I missed a segment there; I was watching baseball.

  48. Uh, entitlements means I’m entitled to it. It’s right there in the name.

  49. diggity-diggity DObbs!

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