Ukraine

Will Malaysia Flight Start a War? 24/7 News Cycle Freakout Over Downing of Malaysia Flight In Ukraine Continues

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flightradar24

Earlier today a Malaysia Air flight headed from Amsterdam in the Netherlands to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia was downed over eastern Ukraine, where the Ukrainian military has been fighting pro-Russia separatists. Ukrainian officials say the flight was hit by a surface-to-air missile.

The incident has dominated the news cycle since news broke of the crash about twelve hours ago

Tonight (tomorrow in New Zealand), the New Zealand website stuff asks "Does downing of MH17 flight mean war?"

Although it's unclear exactly who was behind the apparent ground-launched missile that destroyed the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777, US allies who have tried to occupy the middle ground in the worst crisis in relations between Russia and the West since the end of the Cold War may now support bolder action to end the fighting in Ukraine.

"Some people thought Ukraine didn't have anything to do with them. They are now discovering their error," one senior US official said, adding that this could shatter the view in some European capitals that the conflict was largely contained.

Unless the warmongers in Washington and other relevant world capitals get their way, the answer to stuff's question is, No. The last two (U.S.-relatedtimes commercial flights were downed by missiles, the world and its leaders managed to avoid a war. Agendas aside, it shouldn't be difficult to avoid one here either and the push for war kinetic action in the wake of the downed Malaysia Air flight provides a very real world example of what's at stake in the debate over how interventionist U.S. foreign policy should be, a debate that's more prominent in domestic politics now than it has been in years.

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  1. Who would we even go to war against? The investigation for whose missile it was hasn’t even been completed.

    (Answer: FYTW)

    1. The Vietcong of course.

      1. +1 Gulf of Tonkin

    2. This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.

      1. Red October…nice.

  2. If Russia was ACTIVELY involved in shooting down the plane (very unlikely), then this is very close to an act of war. 23 American citizens were on that plane.

    What do you when another nation shoots down a civilian air plane for no reason? Killing citizens of your nation? And I’m not talking about drone strikes gone wrong or a mission that produced collateral damage. Or rebels who committed a terrorist act in a nation that’s not interested in containing them. I’m talking about a straight up act of aggression from another state.

    Ukraine says they have evidence Russia was firmly behind this. If this is true, do you still sing the tired old tune about “warmongers”? This concerns a nation’s DEFENSE. As long as planes and citizens can leave the nation, you have to DEFEND them.

    1. You know who else was blamed for not reacting strongly enough when Russians downed a flight with US citizens on board?

        1. He is speaking about Ronald Reagan.
          President Reagan was in office from 1981-1989.

          Apologies, I am just unsure of my audience in reply.

          1. Interestingly there was another passenger plane shot down when Reagan was president, It was an Iranian shot down by US soldiers.

            1. Sailors, not soldiers.

  3. Well, at least so far as the author seems to feel, if only a few dead folks, well then the sacrifice is justified.
    I guess one can keep kicking one in the crotch until they start to bleed from their ears. Then maybe lodge a protest.
    As in the mention of who didn’t act strongly enough in times past. The swelling continues, but may be slightly ameliorated if a political “legend” acted meekly.

    1. So, I guess you’re volunteering to go to war?
      Great! I’ll wave a flag for you.

  4. US allies who have tried to occupy the middle ground in the worst crisis in relations between Russia and the West since the end of the Cold War

    Middle ground what the fuck?!?!

    “In my war with lizard men i have worked real hard to occupy the middle ground.”

    Not only does it make no sense but European NATO commanders and European leaders have been more blood thirsty then the US has.

    1. “European NATO commanders and European leaders have been more blood thirsty then the US has.”

      ?

  5. Why was a commercial airline flying over a war zone where other airlines had stopped flights and where other planes had recently been shot down?

    1. after

      Ed your alt text is full of shit. commercial flight before this incident were being diverted away from flying over the Ukraine.

    2. Most likely the other planes shot down were military aircraft and had their IFF turned off. Militarily speaking, Identification Friend or Foe. A cryptographic device. Or maybe they had it on and were immediately pinged as a target.
      Civilian aircraft have very similar feature that identifies them on a full time basis, and it is not a switch flip to disable it.
      It would seem itchy trigger fingers or horrific lack of training plays a large part in this. Or who knows.
      As for why the Malaysian government decided it was OK to traverse the Hatfield and McCoy shooting gallery, probably never know.

      1. Malaysian government decided

        Not government. It was a commercial airline. The airline and/or pilot decided.

        Also pretty sure a device that pings as friend or foe in a war zone is worthless.

        Who in a war zone would not set their ping as a friend at the first chance they get.

        1. IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) is something that militaries put on their vehicles, to track their own vehicles. There isn’t a universal IFF that everyone can read that tells each military who is who in the battlespace…that would be stupid because forces would be announcing their positions and strengths. It’s not a video game.

          It does exist and isn’t worthless…it just doesn’t exist or function in the way that Locris seems to think it does.

          1. It does exist and isn’t worthless…

            Yeah i was referring to the civilian ‘version’ he was eluding to.

          2. If an IFF query comes back as unknown, then there are measures, electronically speaking, that will ID the aircraft.
            I was only speaking to the number of military aircraft downed in the area recently.
            Mode 4,IFF, is military only, but is shared among allies to avoid fratricide.

            1. That’s a more accurate assessment…but this assumes that the people on the ground know how to figure that out. It’s possible they were insurgents who had no idea how to analyze the identity of an aircraft and they were just shooting at something in their space. Plus, air defense does occasionally get it wrong…like when we shot down that airliner in the Persian Gulf.

        2. The Malaysian government holding company is the majority owner of Malaysian Airlines. Nevertheless, they weren’t the only airline still flying over that MAJOR flightpath and I’m not sure why people are focusing on it so much. It’s not at all their fault that some fucksticks shot down the plane with equipment from some other fucksticks.

          1. Not their fault according to whom? You could make a very strong case that the airline was negligent in allowing a flight over an area with active air defense systems. They divert flights because of dirt from volcanoes…you don’t think Malaysian Air could have figured out they shouldn’t fly their planes near an area with an active insurgency armed with air defense systems capable of shooting aircraft at 72,000 feet? The lawyers for the passengers’ families are certainly going to make that claim.

            1. Well, allegedly the plane was hit above 34000′, and the separatists don’t have any AA that high-powered. The sanest working theory I’ve heard is that it was Russian army mis-id’ing the jet as a transport. They’ve already shot down a couple of Ukrainian military aircraft, so the precedent exists. Plus, rumor has it the typical Russian soldier isn’t exactly highly-trained.

        3. The ping is automatic. On a civilian aircraft all data is entered and cannot be changed via any function other than a removal and reprogram. MH-17 Boeing 777 passenger airliner is hardcoded, if you will. SORT of like the MAC address of any computer.
          Think of it as this- Multiple flights around a busy airport all squawking distance altitude speed and bearing.
          That is the only way an ATC can control traffic. That same info is always on and is not encrypted. It is how ATC’s track aircraft through handoffs to various other controlling authorities.
          As government versus airline versus pilot, many things come into question.
          Route versus fuel load or capacity or the idea that through all the air defenses an international flight may traverse, the command and control of those defenses rests in the hands of competent professionals.

          1. The ping is automatic.

            Yes Locris I get that. Do you get that in a war zone combat planes would use that fact to fake a signal?

            Do you get that in a war zone people operating anti-aircraft weapons would know this and then tend to ignore those signals?

            1. And distinguishing those signals requires analysis on the part of the AD operators. If they were inexperienced or didn’t know how to do that analysis, they could easily end up shooting at civilian aircraft simply because they don’t know (or care) about the difference. That’s why airlines often divert from danger areas with active air defense…even if civilians aren’t being intentionally targeted. Fog of war and all that.

            2. If they choose to ignore all other transponder info, well then that is a different debate.
              I have flown, and in environments similar.
              Spoofing a signal on this level would lead to at the very least an intercept of every commercial or private flight thinking exactly what you have described as taking place.
              Can’t remember anything about scrambling because of 777 or anything else inbound had the threat of a faux single being generated by a companion aircraft. Lots of very very good radars out there.
              Good luck with that.

              1. It’s not a matter of ignoring it…it’s that they might not even understand it. These aren’t Russians manning the air defense, they’re Russian-supported insurgents. Who knows what level of training they got on that equipment?

                From reports leaking out, it looks like the shootdown was insurgents who didn’t realize it was a civilian jet until they hit it. So basically fog of war. Which is why civilian airlines shouldn’t fly over active war zones with air defense operating.

                1. Yes, the fog of war. Mistakes were made. Happens all the time, in fact. And there is one military particularly famous for deadly mistakes, civilian deaths, indifference to bloody collateral damage. Has anyone checked if the USS Vincennes was cruising the Black Sea at the time?

                2. These aren’t Russians manning the air defense, they’re Russian-supported insurgents Russian special forces.

                  FIFY

          2. You’re talking about transponders for tracking aircraft by ground stations and air traffic controllers. IFF is something different (if you’re discussing Identify Friend or Foe).

            1. Only to the military aircraft referenced being attacked/downed in the same area as to IFF.
              Yes there is other data transmitted that would exclude military only AC, you are quite correct in that.

      2. horrific lack of training

        ^this

    3. “Why was a commercial airline flying over a war zone where other airlines had stopped flights and where other planes had recently been shot down?”

      It was 200 miles north of the no-fly zone.

    4. Malaysians, not being American, are incredibly fucking stupid and do dumbshit things. They already lost that other plane last year. Probably due to foreigner dumbshit.

  6. It’s weird how strongly libertarians defend Russia.

    RT interviews Ron Paul all the time and Putin is using Snowden. That doesn’t mean that these fascist a-holes are pro freedom.

    1. Not wanting to start a war over a crash of a plane which we have no idea why it crashed = defends Russia.

      Go fuck yourself.

      1. Where are you getting news from? Russia Today?

        Rothbardian retard.

        1. I heard Putin road a bear into Syria shot 1000 Syrian rebels then punched Assad in the face and place the Saren gas there himself.

          It must be true all the neocon war hawks on TV tell me so!!!

        2. not sure if sarcasm or just stupid warhawk

      2. The plane was shot down. I don’t think that’s in dispute anymore.

        The only question is, who did it? Some terrorists, or Putin?

        No, we don’t have to go to war. But that doesn’t mean we can’t send drones to vaporize whatever base or organizations that carried out the attack. Or send some troops or ships nearby in a show of force.

        How do you DEFEND your airplane and citizens that physically LEAVE the nation?

        1. How do you DEFEND your airplane and citizens that physically LEAVE the nation?

          By telling them not to fly on a crazy ass Malaysian Airliner that cuts through a war zone to save a few bucks on gas.

        2. It would be stupid to do either of those things. This plane got shot down flying over an active war zone (with active air defense systems) where it shouldn’t have been. One of the forces involved in that war is a superpower. We’re not going to drone strike anything or send troops in…and Putin knows this.

          The most we’d do is send troops a couple of countries over to deter aggression by Putin. And Obama likely won’t even do that.

          1. You’d use drones in Donetsk, not in Russia.

            1. You mean the Donetsk that may or may not have Russian troops in it? The one that does have active air defense systems and fighter jets that can easily intercept drones?

              We’re not going to do a drone strike.

              1. I don’t think the “rebels” have fighter jets. Though I suppose the Russians might fly a few
                of their own in if they detected drones.

                Anyway, killing those scumbag russian rebels would be a better use of those drones than blowing up Pakistani weddings.

                1. No, but the Russians do. You think they wouldn’t hit one of our drones and give the “it flew into our airspace” line? Drone strikes are used in places where we have a good chance of getting the drone back and are guaranteed to get targets we want…we’re not going to send one into Ukraine.

                2. And yes, I’d rather see it blow up Russian rebels than weddings, but there’s no guarantee that would happen either.

                3. better use of those drones than blowing up Pakistani weddings.

                  Probably just end up blowing up Ukrainian weddings.

                  1. That’d probably have to be domestic droning, because Ukraine exports the vast majority of its Bridestock.

                4. I don’t think the “rebels” have fighter jets.

                  The rebels got a hold of Ukrainian anti-air and tanks.

                  Who the hell knows what they have or don’t have.

                  This actually brings up a point that has been pissing me off. Apparently every rebel is some Russian soldier and are equipped by the Russian military.

                  The assumption that the new Ukraine got all the Ukraine military personal and equipment in a county that use to have very close ties with Russia and the Russian military and voted in a pro-Russia government before they ousted it is absolutely fucking absurd.

                  Ukrainian rebels are going to have Ukrainian military equipment and personal among their ranks. How could they not?

                  1. Ukrainian rebels are going to have Ukrainian military equipment and personal among their ranks. How could they not?

                    I mean for fuck sakes ISIS is driving around the Syrian Desert in US made Humvees right now but Ukrainian rebels getting a hold of Ukrainian military equipment is impossible?

                    Give me a break.

                  2. Strelknov (sp?) is the leader of these dirt bags, and he is a Russian (former GRU/FSB). Many of the “rebels” are Chechens. Read an article this week about Armenians been involved in this as well.

                    Good question of how many of these rebels are actually Ukrainians.

                    1. dirt bags

                      hmm dirt bags…

                      So remember those two tanks?

                      Remember how the new Ukrainian government claimed it was a Russian invasion and how the Ukrainian military took them out….then how those tanks ended up being just two tanks and were old Russian made surplus tanks and likely Ukrainian owned.

                      Remember the old Ukrainian government and how they went relatively peacefully….the new Ukrainian government does not seem so peaceful. They bomb the shit out of their own cities and have little regard for the civilians caught in the crossfire.

                      The rebels may be scumbags…but the new Ukrainian government are confirmed liars and are definitely bloodthirsty.

                  3. Because they’re being supported by Russian military? Is that even under dispute at this point? Of course they’ll have Ukrainian stuff, but that particular well done dried up once the rebellion started.

              2. We will sanction a bellhop at a Russian hotel in Minsk. That will show them who is boss!

        3. I don’t think that’s in dispute anymore.

          Bullshit. Remember the Seran gas in Syria?

          The only question is, who did it? Some terrorists, or Putin?

          or NATO, or Ukraine.

          1. Or some combination because maybe they were shooting at something else? It’s a war zone…it could have been any of those.

          2. It’s Sarin gas, you dolt. That you speculate that NATO did this marks you as a member of the retards that fantasize that Mossad were behind 9/11. GTFoutta here.

            1. Calm down there, sparky. He was just saying that for all we know it was NATO (because we don’t know anything for certain yet). It wouldn’t be the first time the U.S. or NATO accidentally hit a civilian aircraft in a hostile environment.

              It’s probably not NATO, though. Looks like it was the separatists.

            2. I think claiming Putin did it is just as fantastical.

              To be honest if anyone did it on purpose. As in intended to kill civilians I would suspect the Ukrainians over the rebels.

              Looks like the rebels did it by accident, thinking it was a military plane…..but i remain skeptical if only because the evidence so far is coming from the Ukrainians who have been full blown fucking liars in the past (hell they started by saying the Russians did it) and because of the Sarin bullshit and because news stories about another Malaysian plane that went down was so full of crap I still don’t know what happened.

              1. “To be honest if anyone did it on purpose. As in intended to kill civilians I would suspect the Ukrainians over the rebels.”

                OK. I’ll bite. Why would the Ukrainians intentionally kill civilians?

                1. And why would they shoot a plane flying in the direction it was?

                2. OK. I’ll bite. Why would the Ukrainians intentionally kill civilians?

                  As a false flag operation.

                  Or they thought it was a Russian transport.

                3. Because they already have been killing civilians for the past 4 months?

              2. Looks like the rebels did it by accident

                99+%

      3. Response was to the various people commenting who are parroting the official Russian version of events.

        I don’t agree with going to war over this, Mr. Strawman.

        1. justinjam|7.18.14 @ 9:11AM|#
          “Response was to the various people commenting who are parroting the official Russian version of events.”

          Response to you: Bullshit.

    2. Putin is a thug. He has more than likely armed other thugs who have in turn invaded Ukraine. The war is between the thugs and Ukraine. We have no proof that Putin armed the thugs in Eastern Ukraine. We have no proof Russian troops shot the plane down.

      NATO, while pissed, has no means of power projection. The Poles have more thanks than the French or Germans (pathetic?). In short we would be going in alone.

      We have been at war for some 13 years now, you want to get into another one? We are $17T in debt. The world is full of thugs and assholes – we ain’t gonna fix it.

      1. Back in 2007, when Estonia moved a statue of a Soviet soldier from a central square to a war cemetery, Putin had his neo-Soviet thugs start a DDOS attack against the entire .ee domain.

    3. justinjam|7.18.14 @ 2:04AM|#
      “It’s weird how strongly libertarians defend Russia.”

      It’s weird that you have no evidence of such.

  7. http://www.flightradar24.com/49.94,39.77/5

    Live radar view of Ukrainian airspace.

    It looks like there are still PLENTY of flights that aren’t rerouting, even after the tragedy.

    1. Disclaimer: Site is really slow. It always is after airplane crashes.

    2. From a quick look at that map, it looks like all flights around the eastern Ukraine border, are staying on the Russian side of it.

      1. I saw a few cross, but now the site isn’t loading for me at all.

    3. looks like most are domestic (landing or taking off in the Ukraine) and they are well away from the war zone.

  8. UKRAINIAN security services claim to have intercepted two phone conversations in which pro-Russian separatists discuss having just shot down a civilian plane.

    “Major”: These are Chernukhin folks shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

    “Greek”: Yes, Major.

    “Major”: The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200.” A Civilian.

    “Greek”: Well, what do you have there?

    “Major”: In short, it was 100 per cent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

    “Greek”: Are many people there?

    “Major”: Holy sh–t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

    “Greek”: What kind of aircraft?

    “Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats, and bodies.

    “Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?

    “Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

    “Greek”: Are there documents?

    “Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

    1. ‘We downed an An-26’

      Social media posts by pro-Russian insurgents – most of them hastily removed – suggest the rebels thought they had shot down a Ukrainian army plane before realising in horror that it was in fact a packed Malaysian airliner.

      1. This is likely exactly what happened. One thing is almost a certainty, the pro-Russian rebels did this and they own it. They surely did it with a Russian supplied missile.

        Also sounds like they got to the black box and any other data first and got it off to Russia, where the only information that comes out will be exactly what Putin wants it to be.

        But it’s not going to work. Now the pro-Russian separatists are going to have the entire world pissed off at them and Putin is not going to be able to save face for them. Putin has egg on his face from this one, as well. Giving missiles capable of shooting down commercial aircraft to a bunch of crazy hot heads was not really the brightest of ideas.

        1. They surely did it with a Russian supplied missile.

          Actually the reports are the rebels took a BUK system from the Ukrainians.

          Let me guess. You still think those two old tanks the rebels had were given to them by the Russians.

      2. Look that, Igor, we shoot down plane of those Ukranians. Mother Russia strong, you see! What? Was passenger plane with many countries citizen on board??? Hey, we didn’t shoot it, we didn’t!

        Idiots.

  9. It was the Jooos trying to distract the world from their genocide of peace-loving Gazans.

    1. I’m pretty sure it was the CIA, in conjunction with the reverse vampires, working for the Obama regime. This is all to distract from the many, many, many other fuck ups/scandals in the rich tapestry of corruption and fuckupedness of Obama.

      Watch to see what interesting press releases come out of DC this afternoon. I’m betting financial shenanigans but maybe some more hard drives will have been recycled.

  10. I think this is what Ed meant by “the debate over how interventionist U.S. foreign policy should be”

    On the contrary: President Obama has relinquished American standing, neglected America’s responsibilities as the guarantor of international security.

    http://freebeacon.com/columns/the-bear-is-loose/

    Sigh.

    I want every one of those “rebels” strung up by the balls and left to die. But Ukraine is going to have to be the ones to do it. Could we sell them some goodies to do so, maybe? Have some Ukrainian officers and NCOs over for a little training and such, perhaps. More than that right now….I think not.

    1. As I understand it, there were no Americans on board the plane. The majority were Dutch.

      There should be international condemnation over this and there will be, and there has to be some sort of action to reign in these pro-Russian separatists, they are clearly unhinged maniacs who can’t just be left to run amok with long range missile launchers. Putin really stepped in it on this one.

      1. As long as it isn’t us doing it. The Europeans can clean up their local messes for a change. I realize the cub scouts pose a serious military challenge for them, but that’s their problem.

        1. “The Europeans can clean up their local messes for a change. I realize the cub scouts pose a serious military challenge for them, but that’s their problem.”

          Maybe if the Euro paid for their own damn defense they’d quit yammering on about how the US is a ‘cowboy nation’ every time the US bails their sorry asses out of a jam.
          Goddam French needed to hichhike on US transports to get to Africa; buy your own damn gas!

  11. Wouldn’t war be the most appropriate way to observe the 100th anniversary of the outbreak of World War I?

    1. THIS.

      Internet winner for the day.

      Even if most don’t even know about the anniversary of WWI.

  12. So Malaysia is going to attack the Ukraine? Otherwise what is the point of this article?

    1. Personally, I think the Dutch ought to send a ‘peace-keeping force’ to Ukraine. I’ll be right here cheering them on.

  13. Here and there on the www, they’re some folks wondered if Nostradamus and/or Edgar Cayce had predicted the Malaysian flight being attacked?

    1. You can’t beat the www for dumb!
      Well, maybe Maher, or Maddow…

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