The Culture War in California Rages in Public School Bathroom Stalls

Transgendered teens to become an election issue

Credit: marsmet472 / Foter.com / CC BY-NC-SA

California's new law acknowledging transgendered students adds the following to the state's code:

"A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil's records."

The concerned social conservative response can be summarized as "OMG! Boys in the girls' bathroom! And you can't stop it!" Opponents have used this tactic to get enough signatures to possibly force Assembly Bill 1266 to a vote. From the Associated Press:

A coalition of conservative groups called Privacy for all Students submitted 620,000 signatures to get the initiative on the November 2014 ballot, said Frank Schubert, the political strategist handling the signature gathering effort.

To qualify, at least 505,000 valid signatures must be submitted. To verify the signatures are real, each of California's 58 counties will first check that the count is correct, then conduct a random sampling of signatures to make sure they are legitimate. After that, it is likely the state would order a full review to ensure the integrity of the signatures.

If, after all of the reviews, the group has the requisite number of valid signatures, the initiative would qualify for the ballot.

This fight has the potential to get really nasty. The Pacific Justice Institute (not to be confused with the totally unrelated liberty-minded Pacific Legal Foundation) caused a bit of a shitstorm by targeting a single transgendered student at Florence High School in Florence, Colo., claiming the biologically male student was "making sexually harassing comments toward girls he was encountering" in the bathrooms. Some media outlets apparently reported the story as gospel only to discover later that these incidents are disputed and the school believes no incident actually happened. The National Review Online, for example, reported the claims and then updated later with the school's response that they hadn't had any incidents of harassment. Others apparently deleted the story entirely.

Cristan Williams, a writer at Transadvocate, tracked down the school's response that the transgendered teen isn't harassing anybody and that just one parent is upset. She found a post from a girl from the same school saying she's never seen the student harass anybody else and nobody had a problem with the student using the girls' bathroom. Parents apparently got upset after he was outed as transgendered in a Facebook message somewhere. Also, the commenter claimed the student gets beaten up trying to use the boys' bathroom.

This is going to be the kind of fight where everybody is arguing over who the true victims are. Opponents are insisting that some sort of privacy violation is taking place in the school bathrooms, like these filthy holes are sacred spaces. The Pacific Justice Institute has a video of a woman in tears – actual tears – over being unable to stop a biological boy from using the same bathroom as a girl. If this makes the ballot, the fight is going to be very unpleasant to watch. Conservative Republican member of the State Assembly Tim Donnelly made news for pulling a son out of public school after this law passed. He just recently announced plans to run for governor and posted about his outrage, so he clearly wants it to be an election issue.

I have yet to see any actual real-world examples that indicate granting transgendered students some leeway here will result in any sort of victimization of non-transgendered students. Thinking that boys will game the system (because that's really what we're talking about, right?) to harass girls ignores that boys honestly don't need to go through all this effort if they want to do so. And any sort of actual harassment could result in discipline and even criminal charges. Girls can sexually harass other girls and the same holds true for boys. The increasing acceptance of gay students didn't make it legal for gay teens to harass their peers. The predatory fears of what transgendered folks may be up to may make for some interesting movie plots, but it's not a real-world thing.

Of course, more school choice would help solve all of this, and all students could find education choices that suit their interests and needs better. Failing that, this whole effort smells of faux outrage by adults who are still (and will perpetually be) terrified of the development of teen sexuality and individual identity.

Comments

[The Late P Brooks]

That sign should feature a wide-eyed smiley emoticon.

[playa manhattan]

Im surprised that you took this view, Scott. This entire thing is counterproductive.

[playa manhattan]

To clarify, about a year and a half ago, I had a socially conservative friend tell me that gay rights activist wanted to have boys and girls peeing in the same bathroom. I laughed in his fucking face and mocked him.

Here we are, with the people in charge as a fucking caricature of what SoCons are afraid of. Gay marriage is right at the threshold of being accepted by the majority in CA, and then they do something stupid like this.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

TBH I don’t care much about the gay issue one way or another, but it is eerie how many bizarre predictions from various socially unpopular groups have come true over the years.

“Oh Trouser, stop it. Common-sense regulations on cigarettes are nothing like bans on fatty foods, and you know it! Stop being a drama queen about it; the government would never do something like that, not in a million years.”

[playa manhattan]

In this case, it’s hare to see how the CA assembly is on the same side as gays. It’s almost like they have been trojan horsed by SoCon trolls.

[Nixonfan]

Rock and Roll will lead to drugs and sex. Boy were they wrong!

[np]

To clarify, about a year and a half ago, I had a socially conservative friend tell me that gay rights activist wanted to have boys and girls peeing in the same bathroom.

If you were to ask me when I was in school, would I support boys and girls peeing in the same bathroom? I and I’m sure all the other guys would’ve said, fuck yeah!

[playa manhattan]

On the flip side, you would have learned that really cute chicks can make really bad smells. Earth shattering stuff right there.

[HellsBells]

Oh hell no. I would’ve have abused laxatives before letting my high school crush or any other cute boy know that I was even capable of bodily functions. I guess that fixes it. You make gender neutral bathrooms and girls will hold it all day.

[jesse.in.mb]

I told Equality California to fuck off after they called me a few times about this law even though I’d indicated I didn’t want to donate to support it. CA gay rights groups have a lucrative funding base and they want to keep it “energized” even though these organizations are pretty useless under CA’s current legal system. They’re whipping up culture war for the sake of keeping the cash rolling through and I’m really curious at what point it will backfire.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

I’m confused: how is this supposed to be a gay rights issue, again?

Don’t gays identify as the sex they were born with, in which case they wouldn’t be affected by this law?

[jesse.in.mb]

That’s what I mean by this backfiring. LG&B tend to be sympathetic to T because of the whole ostracized sexual minority thing, but LGB and T interests don’t actually overlap all that much. I’m not sure how excited LGB donors are going to be about pushing T issues or that the bigger LGBT organizations are trying to roll themselves into a generic New Left funding base instead of being issue specific.

It took me a while to disabuse some coworkers and friends of the “It’s cool, jesse’s just one of the girls” bullshit (I’m gruff and beardy, I don’t know how one makes that mistake). I’m not all that happy with the conflation of these issues (though I’m probably more sympathetic to Ts than many in the commentariate).

[Emmerson Biggins]

actually, I think this is one of the cases where I have sympathy, but am literally incapable of drumming up any empathy.

[Scott S.]

Did they call you to see if you needed help with Obamacare exchanges? They tracked me down here at the office and we had a weird “Who’s on first?” conversation for a while where I thought they were looking for media publicity. They apparently got a grant to call their donor bases to try to get them signed up in the exchanges.

[jesse.in.mb]

No, I’d donated a small sum for a different issue one of the times they’d called and then got three more calls in the same week for different issues. I got angry and told them to scrub me from their donor database completely or there’d be lawsuit about a month before the exchanges went live.

New life lesson: don’t be a mensch and donate money to anyone if you want your dinner hour to be sacrosanct.

[playa manhattan]

This will backfire, probably by a few percent.

P.S. Sloopy might be coming out for brunch this weekend if you are free. No concrete plans yet. He just found out about Sloopy’s Beach Cafe and it really piqued his interest. Other SoCal reasonoids also welcome…

[jesse.in.mb]

My roommate worked there for years. I love that place. Count me in. Just let me know when you guys plan on going.

Hugh and I were talking about possibly hitting a Money for Nothing: Inside the Federal Reserve screening at Whittier Collete tomorrow. It’s narrated by Liev Schreiber.

[playa manhattan]

Is Hugh the guy who sends out penis pics?

Sounds like a lovely movie at a lovely junior college.

I have maybe a 25 percent chance of being free tomorrow evening, but I’ll see if I can get away. (I interpreted that as an invitation).

[jesse.in.mb]

Is Hugh the guy who sends out penis pics?

You’re thinking Thane

Sounds like a lovely movie at a lovely junior college.

🙁

I interpreted that as an invitation

You’re correct on that. I still need to confirm with Hugh if he’s going.

[briny]

I’m in Ca. also so watching this will be interesting, especially when all the polls indicate one way and the actual vote goes the other as has happened far too often here.

[Zeb]

Why should anyone care what bathroom they pee in? Sexual shenanigans isn’t a good reason. Gay people are still supposed to use the bathroom for their sex. So what is it?

[entropy]

In my school, the girls bathroom (I know because I cleaned it during Saturday detention) had a couch in it and smelled like scented candles.

The boys bathroom had puddles of piss everywhere, clogged toilets, sexual harassment written on the wall and toilet paper wads stuck to the ceiling.

I forsee problems.

[entropy]

It would have been hilarious if the young troublemaking me could have just declared himself a woman to avoid wading through the pee swamp and hung out in the ladies room.

‘Sup, ladies. I’m here to pee on the wall and then chill on the couch with my fly open while I eavesdrop on your boy conversations.

[SusanM]

I don’t know if this is covered below, but it’s largely a non-issue. You can’t just one day up and say “I’m a woman now! Lemme use their bathrooms”. Well, you could, I guess, but it won’t work is what I’m saying.

Forget what you see in the movies. Gender transition is a long and involved process. There are several hurdles you have to surmount and rightly so. This is likely to be only an rare problem.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

…why wouldn’t it work? It’s not like teenagers are subjected to rigorous testing to determine their sexuality prior to entering high school; teachers would just take them at their word unless given cause to do otherwise.

[SusanM]

Because they do require documentation. In order to get that documentation you first need a shrink’s approval, which requires a minimum of six months continuous therapy – longer, if there are some additional psychological problems. This is required in order to weed out those who may have outright delusions, people who may hate their birth gender for reasons not related to gender dysphoria, fakers looking to screw the system or people desperate for attention. Neither the therapy or hormone replacement therapy are usually covered by insurance (and even under O’care, it’s pretty iffy). So, by the time this becomes an issue for the school, the student in question is probably graduating high school soon.

And that’s assuming that the parents of these children are supportive – and they likely won’t be. Being trans or gay is the most likely reason for a teen to be homeless in the US.

[entropy]

BS I think.

The california rule says all I need to do is identify myself as a woman.

What part of the CA rules says I need a long and involved process?

There is a long and involved process if you want to get the chopadicktomy, but I don’t want that, I just want to go in the girls locker room. What hurdle?

[SusanM]

I’ll have to read it again, but I’m prepared to concede the point if you’re right.

The point I’m tying to make is that for the people who these laws apply to, this is not a casual or easy decision or process.

[SusanM]

My bad…

[boomslang4]

*Lopitoffomy

[playa manhattan]

There’s a reason why men’s rooms have a drain in the floor.

[fredtyg]

Indeed, and this exactly the sort of thing that galvanizes opposition to any legitimate gay rights legislation.

The writer’s second to last paragraph, while trying to show no problem with the law, also shows why no such law is needed.

I opposed Prop 8- the proposition against same sex marriage- and generally support gay rights, but I signed the petition for this referendum and will vote for it come election time. If the LGBT community had any sense, they’d vote for it too.

[SIV]

Im surprised that you took this view, Scott.

Does Shackford support ENDA?

[Scott S.]

Search function is your friend.

(Spoiler: No)

[Drake]

I’m sure no gender-neutral penis will find its way into a gender-neutral vagina in there.

[Agammamon]

So, how long before someone starts to fill their girl’s softball team with ringers pretending to be transgender?

[BakedPenguin]

Renee Richards FTW!

[entropy]

That would solve all those college Title IX problems though wouldn’t it?

[agmike98]

I’d imagine you don’t need to do anything other than check the [F] box on the form. Who is the school to say I’m not a very convincing girl? CA softball, girls basketball, girls soccer, etc teams are going to DOMINATE every other state.

[Swiss Servator, Original Gnome]

Trolling for comments/page hits, eh?

KULTUR KAMPF…jetzt!

[John]

I have yet to see any justification why the public schools owe transgendered teens some kind of special accommodation. This whole thing is a good example of why if there is to be public schools, they should be controlled at the most local level possible. If some school in California wants to do this and the kids and their parents who go there don’t mind, that is their business. But at the same time, the fact that it happens there shouldn’t create some kind of blanket rule making every school do the same even where the kids object.

Let people work it out amongst themselves. What a concept.

[derpules]

I’m a cat trapped in a man’s body … CRAZY
I’m a toaster trapped in a man’s body … CRAZY
I’m a space alien trapped in a man’s body … CRAZY
I’m a [any noun that isn’t “woman”] trapped in a man’s body … CRAZY
I’m a woman trapped in a man’s body … “Transgender”

[Certified Public Asskicker]

I’m a cat trapped in a man’s body

A litter box in every public restroom shall be mandated.

[Zeb]

I’d go with “sorry, no pets allowed”.

[PM]

Guide dogs only

Inb4 SPECIESIST!

[wanfuforever]

Do you know any transgenders? Have you researched it seeing that you’re on a computer and have access to the Internet? Have you taken the time to speak with someone who is transgendered? No? Don’t worry, the vast majority of callous replies here representing the Western Taboo over the subject is in full force. “I don’t know anyone that’s gone through this, don’t think about researching the question…Meh lemme just shout out an uninformed opinion, nothing bad ever comes out of that!” Amazing to me what filters through the skeptical mesh and what we accept uncritically. Nature constantly shows us what reality is, yet if it clashes with our beliefs, reality has to go. If we know there are gay animals of other species and figure out we’re one of the species that has gay members, why is it so hard to see that we’d have transgendered ones too? That are bodies are so complex that the change is poor (just as our capacity for regeneration) is not the fault of transwoman or men. At this point, I’d just like people to take the cmputer they’re on and read the reasearch of the doctors actually studying this stuff and remove the politics and taboos from the equation. I can dream…

[The Immaculate Trouser]

Dude, most of us are here either because 1) we just fapped (right, Shrike?) or we want to fap, but our employers won’t let us. Be glad that most of our sentences are coherent and on-topic.

[Auric Demonocles]

Do you know anyone who thinks he is Napoleon? No? Then you can’t say he is crazy.

Gay people aren’t denying reality. They just happen to have different preferences than the general populace. Transgendered people typically don’t just say “I wish I was a woman” (which would be the analog to having different preferences), they say “I am a woman.”

[West Texas]

And you know what? If they have a Y chromosome, they’re not a woman, regardless of what they may think or say. This “debate” is the most ludicrous post-modern creation EVAR!

It’s one thing to have sexual preferences and wish to indulge in those preferences without harassment. It’s entirely another to deny objective reality and call people bigots for not playing along with your delusions.

[jesse.in.mb]

This “debate” is the most ludicrous post-modern creation EVAR!

Berdaches, Thai kathoeys (ladyboys), and Filipinio bakla are totally creations of postmodernism!

[PM]

He didn’t say transgenderism was postmodern, he said the debate over accommodation of transgenderism was postmodern. I have no idea whether berdaches, Thai kothoeys and Filipino bakla are accommodated in school bathrooms or not, so I couldn’t say one way or the other.

[derpules]

[smacks lips] Mmmm, needs moar butthurt

[Edwin]

“Hi, I was wondering where you have dolphin-accessible restrooms?”

[derpules]

I’m sorry sir, we only have transgender dolphin-accessible restrooms, you’re just going to have to hold it.

[Rich Grise]

My inner female is a lesbian. 😉

[SIV]

The government orders that boys who “identify” as girls be allowed to use the girls bathroom and “SoCons” have to go to a ballot initiative to appeal it?

Sounds like a good argument for ending compulsory education. BTW, where is the “equal protection” case that any boy, regardless of “gender identity:” be permitted to use the girls’ restroom? Sounds like Cali is creating “special rights” for the “gender dysphoric”. Won’t this run afoul of “potty parity” laws in creating twice the facilities for the “third gender”?

[John]

It is exactly that. Or at the very least it is an argument for local control of schools. The SOCONs only care because they know that since the state controls the schools if it happens at one school it will inevitably be forced to happen at every school.

If we had local control, people would care a lot less about what the people in the next county or city are doing.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

It’s already happening in every school. Top of the post:

California’s new law acknowledging transgendered students adds the following to the state’s code

[John]

And that is what makes it a “culture war”. The universality of these rules. I don’t understand why Reason can’t get that concept. The evil SOCONs wouldn’t be trying to ban this and force a school that is doing it and apparently likes it to stop doing it if the rule wasn’t going to be forced on them.

The Left can’t live with “you do your thing and we will do ours over here”. They are cultural aggressors who will never leave an institution they don’t like alone. That is what gives up the culture war.

It is like the boy scouts. Reason whined for years about how it should let gays in. Well finally they did and some people who didn’t like that left the scouts and formed their own organization that didn’t allow gays. That sounds fine except that give it a few years and let that organization achieve some size and success and the Left will be going after it just like they did the Boy Scouts. Then what? Reason will no doubt be right there with them because they can’t seem to understand the culture war has two sides.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

The evil SOCONs wouldn’t be trying to ban this and force a school that is doing it

Eh, I dunno about that. In a state where SoCons are politically dominant, I could see it happening — though Reason’s coverage of it would most likely be far more hyperbolic and negative than it is in this case.

[John]

In that case, they would be wrong. But of course those cases never seem to happen. Regardless, this case is another of the left being the cultural aggressors and Reason concern trolling about how the SOCONs just want to fight the culture war.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

Yes, some reason posts do have that “SLD, but SoCons should be thrown in camps tee hee” quality to them.

[playa manhattan]

I don’t really see sex segregated bathrooms as a socially conservative thing. It’s universally culturally accepted.

I personally have no problems with unisex bathrooms, in fact, they had them in my dorm freshman year at Berkeley. The girls did appear to be uncomfortable, though, and I sympathize with that.

What I find so off-putting is the hubris and arrogance of the CA assembly, thinking that they can or should try to redefine the cultural norms of the western world. TOP MEN.

[Rich Grise]

Yeah, boy, there’s nothing sexier than a girl sitting on the toilet to take a dump.
</sarc

[The Immaculate Trouser]

In before a libertarian says gummint out of schools would solve this…

this whole effort smells of faux outrage by adults who are still (and will perpetually be) terrified of the development of teen sexuality and individual identity

What is this, livejournal? Anyways, I see no good reason to facilitate the development of what is quite possibly a mental or emotional problem on the part of a student in exchange for no apparent benefit to the student or the student body. Is there any reason that a physically male student needs to use a female bathroom, even if that is the gender he identifies with? Are there any other conditions a male can suffer from to gain access to the ladies’ room?

I’m asking for a friend.

[np]

In before a libertarian says gummint out of schools would solve this…

Well it would. There would be schools that allow it and schools that don’t. Problem solved.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

Well, I agree but it’s not much more responsive than saying to any incidence of rape, “Well, men should just stop raping”.

[playa manhattan]

I’ll one up you: There should be a law against rape.

[Marshall Gill]

I agree. There should be a law against the compulsory funding of public indoctrination centers.

[Rich Grise]

Especially when you consider that “education” isn’t even mentioned in the Constitution. Or gender-specific toilets, for that matter.

[fredtyg]

“Is there any reason that a physically male student needs to use a female bathroom, even if that is the gender he identifies with?”

I can’t think of one, other than more nefarious reasons. Even the now sex integrated military has sex segregated bathrooms. Is that next? We’d normally laugh at such suggestions, but here we are with this.

Then there’s the girl and boy’s sports team aspect of it. I’ve already read of certain schools allowing girls to play on boy’s teams for one reason or another. They can already do so if a legitimate reason exists to allow it. As another comment pointed out, will this law enable schools to stack the deck on their teams with the opposite sex to gain advantage?

[Rich Grise]

I once knew a guy who had a really bad cyst on his tailbone, and he wore sanitary napkins on it until it healed.

[Zeb]

They should just make all public bathrooms gender non-specific and be done with it. Why should anyone care who’s peeing next to them?

[derpules]

a. Because men would have no place to expel our thunderous gas without blowing our chances with the hot chick in the stall next to us.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

Terrible idea. As is, a large-ish number of sexual assaults happen in public restrooms; if you’re a lady, you’re not exactly in a non-optimal position vis a vis defense from sexual assault. What, exactly, is the benefit supposed to be here such that one should feel it necessary to reduce the safety (of women, mostly) in using public restrooms?

[derpules]

Firearm vending machines next to the tampon dispensers. Problem solved.

[entropy]

Suspend yourself immediately.

[Zeb]

If there are just as likely to be other men as women in a particular bathroom, wouldn’t that make it a less likely place for a sexual assault? For every man that might want to rape someone, there are quite a few who would like to beat the shit out of a rapist. I don’t see how it would make it worse.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

How many sexual assaults do you believe happen in bathrooms with other witnesses around, male or female? I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that most happen when the woman is alone with her attacker(s).

[The Immaculate Trouser]

That would depend on how crowded the bathroom is, and how ethical the average man using a restroom is. Certainly, the presence of other males hasn’t stopped college parties of a particular reputation from becoming notorious for sexual assault. Besides, sexual assault covers more than just rape. You have been in a high school, no?

I don’t see why women should be beholden to a strangers’ chivalry for their protection when the current arrangement works just fine and there is no benefit from changing to gender-neutral bathrooms.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Well, the benefit is that Zeb doesn’t think people should care and this would be an opportunity to force people to behave in accordance with his beliefs.

[Zeb]

And you think people should care. Isn’t the way things are now forcing people to behave in accordance with other people’s beliefs about how toilets should be set up too?

Actually, I only brought this up as a way to avoid fighting about transgendered people, so please don’t assume you can read my mind.

As always, this is best remedied by not having government run schools and letting everyone figure it out for themselves.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

I didn’t state an opinion on whether people should care. I do, however, think people do care.

so please don’t assume you can read my mind

The implication of your question was that you didn’t think people should care, so don’t get all pissy that I made that inference. Or save the “oh, I was just asking questions” Socratic bullshit for someone else.

[Zeb]

But I genuinely don’t know why anyone would care if they have to share a bathroom with people of the opposite sex.

Whatever. Here’s my new proposal. NO bathrooms at all. Everyone can just wear diapers. Apparently school bathrooms are just rape dungeons, so we should eliminate the whole thing.

[Zeb]

But that all happens now. You need to make the case that unisex toilets would make it worse.

This really isn’t an issue I care particularly about. I don’t think there is any particular injustice to be remedied. I just don’t think it matters much either way. It’s not as if there is much right now that would stop a man with ill intent from just walking into a women’s room, or from pulling a woman into the men’s room.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

You need to make the case that unisex toilets would make it worse.

Why shouldn’t the agents of change need to make the case that their new way will make it better?

[Zeb]

Why shouldn’t the agents of change need to make the case that their new way will make it better?

Because we are having an informal argument on a blog comment section, not making policy for schools.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Why should that change who has the burden of making his case?

[Zeb]

Everyone should make their case to dig up any unexamined assumptions.

But OK, here’s my case: unisex (or whatever you call it) toilets would get rid of annoying arguments about which one transgender people should use. I don’t think it would cause any harm, you apparently do.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Unisex toilets would cause more annoying arguments than they would solve.

[entropy]

What about locker rooms?

Trying to address the facilities for transgendered students is just going to be beating around the bush if we don’t go all the way to the locker bathrooms and changing area and public showers.

[entropy]

That’s the holy grail, man.

I’m ready to go gay today if it gets me into the women’s locker room.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

Wait, unisex public showers for high schoolers? Where do I sign up!

I mean to say, after careful and considered re-evaluation of my position, I have come to see the wisdom and foresightedness of my colleague Zeb’s proposal regarding the desegregation of public facilites.

[Marshall Gill]

You can still go to high school when you are 47, right? Since I never graduated I can re-enroll. That and the fact that I am trapped in a lesbian’s body.

[optimusratiostultum]

From my time in the army I’d say most of the sexual assault/harassment is man on man, with all the shit we pulled you would never have guessed DADT was in effect.

[paranoid android]

Well…our world would resemble Battlestar Galactica slightly more!

[fredtyg]

This is a solution in search of a problem.

[HellsBells]

There seems to be a lot of talk about boys using the ladies room, but what about the transgendered girl who wants to use the men’s room because she’s a male trapped in a female body? We see articles on sexual harassment every day. It seems like an unnecessary risk to redefine restroom assignations over this.

[derpules]

If she can pee standing up then she has earned place at the urinal.

[jesse.in.mb]

I’m pretty sure I’ve linked this before. I have a friend who mastered the one-handed hook and lift just to be difficult.

[optimusratiostultum]

they can aim if they try, trust me

[Deep Dish Circumcision]

Terrible idea. As is, a large-ish number of sexual assaults happen in public restrooms; if you’re a lady, you’re not exactly in a non-optimal position vis a vis defense from sexual assault.

Assaults happen now regardless of the sign on the door. So I would imagine some creep follows a woman into a restroom he’s been watching and knows is empty. With unisex bathrooms, couldn’t there be a chance a man could come in (or already be there) to help prevent the assault? Of course, he might join in, but I can’t imagine the woman’s odds got worse.

I’m not really taking a side here, just thinking out loud. I think it would be a “sometimes it’s better, sometimes it’s worse” scenario and I don’t think it’s immediately obvious which is which.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Because that’s all that’s done in restrooms, right?

[Zeb]

Yes, less wholesome things go on too. But that happens now. I’m not convinced that unisex facilities would make it worse.
If a bathroom is empty and unmonitored, then anyone can go in there and do anything no matter what it says on the door. If it is busy, then it is unlikely that bad shit would be allowed to go on.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

I’m not convinced that unisex facilities would make it worse.

That is an utterly bizarre reason to implement a change with no apparent positive ramifications. “Because we can, and what’s the worst that can happen?” has been the rationale behind the actions shown in many a Youtube clip…

[Night Elf Mohawk]

I’m not even talking about less wholesome things. You in favor of paying for mirrors in every stall, for instance, or are you just good with forcing women, or whomever, to mess with their makeup or clothes or whatever in front of whomever feels like being in there, just because it wouldn’t bother you?

[Zeb]

Why is this about what bothers me or not? Some people are bothered by sharing a bathroom at all. Should all school bathrooms be single occupancy then? I suppose that would solve all of these problems.

Once again, I don’t care that much. And in a better world, it wouldn’t be a subject for public policy at all.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Why is this about what bothers me or not?

Zeb: Why should anyone care who’s peeing next to them?

[entropy]

Single occupancy means that they need 75 more bathrooms (as opposed to 3 total).

Or else you can have half the school missing half their classes waiting in line.

[entropy]

I don’t care that much.

I think I can tell by the amount of thought you’re putting into this.

Why not just ban bathrooms and tell them to pee at home? Pee has no educational value.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

Do women even need restrooms? I’ve never seen one poop, and they can just pee on the side of the road.

[entropy]

I’ve never seen one poop

That’s because the patriarchy won’t let you into the women’s bathroom.

[Auric Demonocles]

Too simple.

I always find it kind of funny when I’m at a bar and the bathrooms are single room single stall but still marked men’s and women’s.

[Slammer]

All public school restrooms should have a full-time adult monitor. For the children.

[playa manhattan]

I wonder what kind of applicant pool this job would attract?

[derpules]

STEVE SMITH

[OldMexican]

I have yet to see any actual real-world examples that indicate granting transgendered students some leeway here will result in any sort of victimization of non-transgendered students.

Deductive reasoning does not seem to be your forte, I guess.

What happens when you give a weapon so powerful to someone to blandish, like for instance, an anti-discrimination rule? What do you think happens then? Or do you need to see real-life tragedies to make up your mind?

[fredtyg]

It should be troubling to all that we’re losing the right to non- association, as well as association, with more and more laws like this.

[OldMexican]

“A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records.”

I wonder if there is something in the ground water that would have created enough transgender pupils so as to come up with such a confusing and stupid rule.

[playa manhattan]

This law is a plaintiff lawyer’s dream.

[mb]

this may have been fine last week when people did not know about it (except for the person using it), but I bet the number of students “questioning” their sexual identity will dramtically increase now. High school kids are not mature enough to handle this well, have to agree with social cons on this.

[OldMexican]

This is going to be the kind of fight where everybody is arguing over who the true victims are.

Oh, oh, oh! I know! I know who they will be! I know! I know!

The students stupid enough to think they can now out themselves after harboring the false and sad belief that the new rules will somehow protect them.

THOSE VICTIMS.

[John]

But if they are victimized, they become martyrs for the cause. That is a win from the Progs’ perspective. The poor kid can just suck it up and be happy he furthered the cause.

[Root Boy]

I think we’ll either end up with a mess (guys pretending to be chicks) or we’ll go back to Jim Crow and have Colored, Oops, meant to say Trans bathrooms along with girls and guys rooms.

[Azathoth!!]

Holy fuck. Are you really saying that being discriminated against because you ARE black and being inconvenienced because you think you’re something that you are clearly not are the same thing?

[The Late P Brooks]

a cat trapped in a man’s body

That’s pretty much how my cats see me.

[califernian]

Don’t put your kids in public school!

[Noelle Campbell]

What about OMG how is a girl supposed to compete in softball against a ‘girl’ who was born as a male? THAT is unfair.

[JidaKida]

Sometimes man you jsut have to roll with it.

http://www.Privacy-Road.tk

[HamboneWillis]

I’m usually a reasonable person but the trangendered thing goes beyond the limits of sanity and basic biology. Penis=Male, Vagina=Female. What is so hard to figure out?

[jesse.in.mb]

People born with ambiguous genitalia? Generally doctors selected or pressured parents to select female even though by genetics these folks might be male with an underdeveloped penis because it was “easier”. I’m not saying it’s extremely common but it definitely happened and is still happening (although less frequently now).

[Edwin]

That, and some people are born with a starkly opposite-gendered mind. I remember when I used to walk my little brother around the neighborhood with his nanny, we had made friends with this boy in the neighborhood who was a boy, but from his behavior and mannerisms was quite obviously a girl inside. It was quickly and strongly noticeable, and there was no denying it. And at that young of an age (like 6), you know it’s part of the inborn personality, not environmentally or whatever induced. I mean, you could stretch and allege some kind of sex abuse made him confused, but I SERIOUSLY doubt that was happening in the family, and anyway, those aren’t the affects of such abuse.

Either way, I still think the cause is absurd. Even if you are transgendered, the facilities that exist are fine and you just go by penis=boy’s room, vagina=girls room

[Tonio]

Individual bathrooms, problem solved. That is, many bathrooms each with a single toilet and sink.

[John]

Sure. We can just throw more money at the schools. Hey lets spend money on individual bathrooms to cater to some miniscule portion of the student population. It is not like resources or limited or anything or people pay taxes for schools expecting it to be spent on things related to education. What the hell Tonio. We should spend a fortune giving you your pony. What could possibly go wrong?

[entropy]

Give him me.

I am a pony.

Trapped in a man’s body.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

You can use me to foot the bill for the increase in toilets.

I am a million dollar bills trapped in a man’s body, after all.

[Response]

Given a two restroom system, this really comes down to which is worse – boys bullying another boy in the restroom or girls feeling uncomfortable with a boy in the restroom? Yes, there can be worse things that occur, but those things could occur regardless. In any case, someone is likely going to have to deal with the issue.

I remember when I took Spanish one year in high school, the teacher mentioned that it was not uncommon in Latin countries for the women’s restroom to be linked to the men’s restroom and that the women would have to pass through the men’s restroom to get to theirs. I gave the (what I thought was the normal teenage male) response of “too bad it doesn’t go the other way” and she just about crapped her pants. “How could you even think of such a thing?” she asked. I understood the issue at hand, but couldn’t understand her logic in thinking that I was being illogical.

People think – other people think differently. Someone is going to get offended either way.

[SusanM]

Good point. And there’s the old “well, if x makes you feel uncomfortable, then why not restrict y and z as well”

What about out lesbians in the girls room?

[optimusratiostultum]

I think there are a few films dedicated to the subject

[optimusratiostultum]

I think ill go do some “research” on them right now

[SusanM]

So, is there no more love for Larry “V for Vendetta co-writer” Wachowski anymore?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0905154/?ref_=nv_sr_1

[SIV]

The Matrix is one of the worst popular and acclaimed movies ever made.

[PM]

So, is there no more love for Larry “V for Vendetta co-writer” Wachowski anymore?

Not since Speed Racer…

[optimusratiostultum]

The only thing I have against this law is that this ought to be a local issue decided by the school board.

Interesting side note I once sublet my apartment to a bunch of people who all ended up being unreliable and horrible roomates. Until A guy named brad who had me call him “Caitlyn” and wore girls clothes and makeup. He turned out to be the best roomate ever, clean and never late with the rent.

[Nixonfan]

When you are asked to check M or F, they are not asking for your life history or your personal philosophy, just your biological gender assignment, which is determined by your ability to use a urinal. There is no need to reinvent the toilet.

[Nixonfan]

Did they poll any Hispanic mothers or fathers? I can tell you their opinion: at first they won’t believe you, and then they will get mad.

[c5c5]

The reason why conservatives oppose allowing the transgendered into bathrooms (and almost all other sex related cultural changes we have had the past 100 years) is not because they don’t like the transgendered. It is because they FEAR what the future will be like with this kind of openness. They think that messing with the traditional man/woman distinction will cause havoc upon culture and will affect the society negatively in the future.

I used to only think that liberals were run by fear. It is clear that conservatives are just as controlled by their fears of the future as well.

I wish they would just at least acknowledge that no matter how much they protest, they cannot change an evolving culture, good or bad.

The best path is to support individual freedom.

[Response]

I don’t see their dislike of open sex related cultural changes to be fear. Bear with me, but I see this situation being more like art forms. They say art to one person is junk to another. It doesn’t mean that whoever doesn’t like the art fears the art. It means they don’t want the art/junk constantly surrounding them. Similarly, general culture is valued in much the same way. Most people enjoy visiting new cultures and seeing what they have to offer, but would they want that culture to supplant their own? Most would not and I don’t know if I would call it just out of fear. Just like liberals who don’t want native cultures to be “ruined” by modern cultures that are encroaching on the native cultures, conservatives don’t want conservative cultures ruined or supplanted by encroaching liberal cultures. Sure, fear mongers will wage war everywhere, but that doesn’t mean that most fear it. They just value one culture/art form more than another.

[c5c5]

I say “fear” because conservatives, private and public ie: Dennis Prager, have come out and admitted it as such.

Not wanting a culture to supplant your own can be out of fear.

[Vincent Milburn]

Even if we concede that gender and sex are two different things, common sense reminds us that bathrooms are meant to separate people by body parts, not psychology.

Boys harassing girls in the girls room is all but inevitable. The only question is how widespread it will be.

No one can truly prove or disprove transgenderism beyond a doubt.

Transgender men playing as women in sports will be the end of women’s sports.

If someone doesn’t have mind/ body integration, maybe their mind is the problem. Not saying the government should tell people how they are allowed identify. It’s just something to think about.

Lastly, as long as we have public schools, they will be forced to take an official government stand on cultural issues.

[JoeS54]

Once again, Reason jumps onto a social issue with a totally non-libertarian POV, taking the side of the radical left. Sometimes I think these writers need a remedial course in libertarianism. Or just a dictionary. You have government imposing a left wing social agenda on students at a government-run school, and Reason thinks it’s great. Got it.

And government-sanctioned, regulated and subsidized same sex marriage is clearly something libertarians should be in favor of.

Seriously, get a dictionary. Look up two words: libertarian and egalitarian. Learn the difference. Here’s a clue – one means freedom, the other means equality.