In Praise of Partisan Media
Fake impartiality by the media is the real problem, not bias.
As much as it pains me, let me take a few moments to defend MSNBC.
Media bias is a perpetual grievance of the right -- for obvious reasons. But maybe the only way to improve on the situation is to champion more openly ideologically driven political journalism. By any measure, it's a lot less destructive than what we had for decades: media feigning impartiality.
Take last week's much-talked-about testy exchange between anchorman Thomas Roberts and Republican National Chairman Reince Priebus. It can be uncomfortable watching a head-on collision of hackery, but the truth is that the exchange between Roberts and Priebus was weirdly honest, entertaining and informative. It's not often a TV anchorman admits to viewers that he's reading "directly from what the president just gave us." At least he's honest. And it's not as if Priebus was on MSNBC to offer his dispassionate impression of the situation, either. He should be challenged.
We all know where MSNBC and Fox News Channel stand. It's establishment media masquerading as impartial that have the real impact. This bias is rooted in insularity, showing a lack of curiosity about the other side's worldview -- the ignorance about religion, guns and free market economic ideas, for example -- and, even worse, a lack of skepticism toward its own conceptions about how things work.
To the untrained eye, the Obamacare rollout may seem like an unmitigated disaster. But editors at Reuters ("Web traffic, glitches slow Obamacare exchanges launch") and The Associated Press ("Rollout of 'historic' Obamacare in California hits some snags") will try to dissuade people of this notion. Bias is found in not what you write but what you don't, in what goes above the fold and what sort of delicate nouns and adjectives you sprinkle in your headlines.
And when Obamacare was a bit, you know, glitchy, the media struggled to find someone who could make the federally run health insurance rollout a success story. They came up with Chad Henderson, a 21-year-old part-time child care worker and conscientious son -- the kind of person we're supposed to believe Obamacare can really help.
The Washington Post reported, "Meet Chad Henderson, the Obamacare enrollee tons of reporters are calling." (The article was penned, incidentally, by the reporter who believes that Kermit Gosnell was a mere local crime story.) "I haven't had health insurance for 14 years," Henderson told the Post. "My dad put me on BlueCross BlueShield, but the premiums kept rising, and we dropped it since he wasn't making that much." What the author, much less any editor at the Post, won't ask: "Wait. Doesn't this guy sound like he's full of crap?" "Hold on. Do we believe his claims about affordability?" "Hey, why don't we hound one of the thousands of people who failed to enroll?"
The entire story turned out to be bogus. But it took Peter Suderman at libertarian Reason -- a place where, one might imagine, the ideological sensibilities of the staff are naturally skeptical about feel-good collectivist enterprises -- to debunk every angle of the story. But you have to wonder how many Chad Hendersons get away with it.
The establishment media could, of course, hire more ideologically diverse staffs to fix this problem. There could have been a Suderman at the Post. Despite what many conservatives believe, there are many media professionals who take their craft very seriously, many who break important stories, many who are immensely talented -- but very few who aren't biased to some extent.
Having a point of view doesn't preclude a political journalist from being honest or curious or a critical thinker (though, after hearing Thomas Roberts' confused understanding of lawmaking, it's obviously not mandatory), but journalists believe -- or act as if they believe -- that their work is immune from ideology. With a few noteworthy exceptions, of course, that's impossible. And that's fine. The key to making it work isn't impartiality; it's diversity.
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Disagree. I think objective journalism is achievable, still exists, but is not inevitable. People like to point to the fact that newspapers used to be quite partisan, and objective news is a relatively new phenomenon. But this doesn't mean it isn't valuable and worth preserving.
Yes, reason got a scoop about that Henderson boy, but is it doing the world any good for a publication with an obvious ideological agenda to further distort the story from "Kid lied in Washington Post interview" to "Therefore Obamacare is the devil" or whatever you think that story means?
The problem with this attitude is that it is deeply relativistic, and depends on a relativistic attitude toward truth in order to promote an ideological agenda that otherwise would fail under scrutiny. FOX News owes its existence to the faulty premise that all so-called objective journalism is biased. Its response to this phantom bias is to be deliberately biased.
Reason has a distinct political agenda. That means it's not trustworthy as a source of facts. Nothing wrong with having an agenda, but without a baseline of objectivity then everyone ends up shouting slogans and nobody ends up informed about anything.
Oops lets try this again. So please name this objective journalism? Where is it? Is it NYT, NBC, CBS, ABC, Washington Post?
Is there a war that the NYT has not supported?
Hell aside from Pinotche is there a monstrous tyrant that the NYT has not supported?
Those are all relatively objective.
The problem is that you believe so much that ain't so.
Tony|10.11.13 @ 5:20PM|#
"Those are all relatively objective.
The problem is that you believe so much that ain't so."
OK, the comedy act is on!
So Tony, your subjective opinion is that those news sources are relatively objective. I remain unconvinced.
The problem with this attitude is that it is deeply relativistic, and depends on a relativistic attitude toward truth in order to promote an ideological agenda that otherwise would fail under scrutiny.
Which is a pretty apt description of almost all your posts.
Wasn't it ABC that fired Stossel for not having the correct political views?
Did they even try to hide their reasons?
Stossel left after ABC's viewership dropped and Fox News' rose. He was so disliked by everyone for his political views the only reason he stayed on was for the high viewership ABC used to have. ABC would also prevent him from doing some of the stuff he wanted and he had to fight at times which he didn't need to do on Fox.
Reason has a distinct political agenda. That means it's not trustworthy as a source of facts.
Reason polls and CNN polls show the same results. Reason reports them CCN does not.
Which one do you guys think Tony thinks is a more trustworthy source of facts?
"Yes, reason got a scoop about that Henderson boy, but is it doing the world any good for a publication with an obvious ideological agenda to further distort the story from "Kid lied in Washington Post interview" to "Therefore Obamacare is the devil" or whatever you think that story means?"
Notice that Tony is incapable of reporting facts without loading them with left-wing bullshit.
"Therefore Obamacare is the devil" or whatever you think that story means?"
It means Obamacare is currently an unworkable unmitigated disaster that biased news sources are covering up and then claiming to be unbiased.
Still confused?
Nobody's covering anything up. They're just covering the more important story with bigger type.
It's the GOP's biggest strategic blunder in recent memory.
I'll note that you're expressing not an appreciation of objective reporting, but are whining that the media aren't trashing Obamacare as much as you'd like.
Tony|10.11.13 @ 5:21PM|#
"Nobody's covering anything up."
But not for a lack of effort!
"the media aren't trashing Obamacare as much as you'd like"
Unfortunately, I think you are correct that this is largely what is going on here.
This does not, however, mean that "the media" is being objective about Obamacare.
No, without question it is treating it more negatively than it deserves. There is years'-old relentless anti-Obamacare messaging in place on rightwing media, and a practically nonexistent attempt at countermessaging from the administration (left-wing media treat it with skepticism for not being socialist enough but generally approaches the subject as reactionary against the rightwing propaganda.)
"left-wing media treat it with skepticism for not being socialist enough"
You raise a good and accurate point that I think most here probably don't realize.
The left-left see Obamacare as a betrayal of the drive for universal healthcare.
The left-left see Obamacare as a betrayal of the drive for universal healthcare.
I find that actions speak louder than words. If the Left is really so upset about it why are they supporting it so hardily? The answer is pretty obvious to me. Sure they'd like to go further, but they certainly think that Obamacare is a step in the right direction.
So the claim that "left-wing media treat it with skepticism for not being socialist enough" is pretty misleading.
I don't pay attention to a whole lot of mass media outlets, but I notice that a lot of folks here think that "The Left" is this monolithic thing and that there's no dissent in the ranks there.
Now, my perspective may be skewed by living in the SF Bay Area, as there is a hard, hard left here that is not represented in the mainstream media. At all.
These folks on the hard, hard left are really mystified by these assertions that they somehow control the media and that their voice is being heard.
In their view, Obamacare is an appropriation of the rhetoric of universal healthcare to promote a primarily crony capitalistic scheme of forcing people to buy insurance.
Just because the "left wing media" is not that critical of it, that does not mean that the Left are marching in lockstep and jumping for joy at the great triumph.
Yes and I don't even think there is genuine love for the law anywhere on the spectrum. Support is conditional on it being a step in the right direction and/or on the perfectly rational desire not to see a Democratic president's legislative success turn into a failure that might do serious damage to morale and political prospects.
That's what I've seen, too - no love for it, just a "it's better than nothing and we prefer that to utter stagnation," which is different from the gloating triumph that so many complain of.
Being a left leaning San Franciscoan myself I am also in favor or more citizens forcibly taking it up the rear.
For the greater good, of course
The hard, hard left, in the US, are morons - too stupid to even be useful idiots. They style themselves as anti-establishment and anti-government but want the government to do ever more for them as see it as the solution to all ills in life.
The are correct that the mainstream media ignores them because the mainstream media is statist, little more than government propagandists.
"depends on a relativistic attitude toward truth"
Relativity is a real thing. Objectivity is not (which is my main criticism of Ayn Rand, by the way).
ALL people have a perspective. That's relativity. Pretending you don't have a perspective and that what you see is "objective" reality, as opposed to what others see, is dishonest.
The paradox, however, is that it is in fact best to at least try to be objective even knowing that you can't, in order to, as you say, avoid mindless sloganeering and knee-jerk contrariness (neither of which are at all alien to reason.com).
But you still must always keep in the front of your mind the fact that your view is NOT objective. Journalistic pretense to objectivity is pretense, and pretense only, and I have to agree that being honest about perspective is much better than simply pretending there are no other perspectives.
That's an interesting debate for a philosophy class, but it is possible to approach the world in an objective or empirical way, even if it is destined to be imperfect. Either a volcano is erupting or it's not. Either policy A produces better outcomes than policy B or it doesn't. There is a difference between what a trained reporter does and what a partisan shill does.
Cite examples of impartial reporters/news organizations please? Would love to read them and see what you consider impartial.
"Either a volcano is erupting or it's not. Either policy A produces better outcomes than policy B or it doesn't."
From the philosophers' corner, the volcano assumption is very "A is A," a point our beloved Mr. Galt goes on a rather long a fruitless monologue about in Atlas Shrugged.
To paraphrase Chuang Tzu, there is no volcano.
But in pragmatic terms to jump from there (an already prolematic example of "empiricism") to "policy A produces better outcomes than policy B" is not a natural jump.
What IS policy A? Do you and I agree on what the words in it even mean? What do you mean by "better" when discussing outcomes? Better for whom? Better by what standard?
Objectivity is, in many ways, simple shorthand for intellectual tyranny.
For the purposes of news reporting--not to mention the health of people who happen to live near the volcano--there is a volcano. News reporting exists in the same sensual sphere as volcanoes, and in that sphere people generally accept that living is good and burning to death in lava is to be avoided. (It is a point in pragmatism's favor that nobody at the foot of an erupting volcano will be having this debate in his head at that particular moment.)
"Better by what standard?" does approach a useful question and depends on agreed-upon values. I prefer to define the standard along with the policy. Policy A prevents more death and misery than policy B is basically what defines my political approach to the world.
Definitely all the people standing at the foot of the volcano will be poorly served by an intellectual debate regarding the existence of the volcano.
This is because the term "existence" doesn't have anything to do with hot lava, really.
The crucial point is that there is a fundamental, unbridgable gap between language/perception and reality.
The difference between my perception and that of the guy standing next to me is going to be all but immeasurably small, however.
Still, it is fundamentally at odds with reality to think of your pespective as being objective, which is what makes John Galt such an asshole instead of being the messiah Ayn Rand sees him as.
It may seem like a small thing, but it is exactly that hubris that makes the difference between honest debate and monovocal dictation.
I don't believe debate is possible without an agreed-upon standard of objectivity. That there isn't one in American politics is its core problem.
But you've described "realty" as an objective thing that we merely don't have access to. Is it that, or is what we call reality constituted entirely of subjective experience?
Your acknowledgment of the (possibly improvable) insignificance of the divide between two people's perspectives is crucial, in my opinion. Isn't debate what happens over those small differences, with everything else agreed-upon?
Yes - and that's the crucial thing - debate. It's what allows us to calibrate our perspectives to each other.
I tend to think that there can be no reality divorced from subjective experience, but I also don't think that means that every schizophrenic's delusions are equally legitimate representations of reality.
There is something "out there," but our looking at it by itself changes and influences it. Even "scientific truth" is highly subject to linguistic ambiguity and false assumptions.
I've done considerable scholarly work on intellectual history and one thing I can tell you is that the scientists of every age have always been absolutely confident that they have finally dispelled the delusions of the past.
Bede, writing circa 725 AD, refers to his own time as "the Englightenment."
"I tend to think that there can be no reality divorced from subjective experience,"
So that airplane that just flew over is?
Someone would have been flying that airplane, right? You were looking at it, yes?
Is there a lack of subjective experience I'm missing?
"Is there a lack of subjective experience I'm missing?"
Yes, there is. That airplane was flying regardless of whether I was watching or not.
So no one was on the plane?
Isnt that a Fantasy Island reference?
Define "better."
The metrics you choose are themselves freighted with ideological baggage, sockpuppet. Fuck off.
Square said:
Relativity is a real thing. Objectivity is not (which is my main criticism of Ayn Rand, by the way).
Is that an objective fact, or one of those relative facts I've been hearing so much about?
Being strictly technical and true to philosophic discourse, I mis-spoke.
There are no objective facts. Not even relativity is an objective fact. The very idea of "fact" presumes a perspective and, hence, subjectivity. Unavoidable.
There are no objective facts.
Is that an objective fact?
And if the answer is, "yes" or "no", is that an objective "yes" or "no"?
And, if there was objective truth, how would you falsify that? And, in falsifying that, would you have established an objective truth?
What I'm getting at is that this seems a position that you have to simultaneously assume axiomatically, and discard logic to embrace.
Desiring objective truth does not make objective truth necessary.
Or to say it another way, if there were objective truth, you could not falsify it, and your attempt to do so would not produce a separate objective truth.
If there is an objective truth there is only one. There cannot be competing objective truths.
But there isn't one. So falsification is a straw man.
So you see how slippery language is.
You assume the existence of fact apart from subjective experience, which is why you need to ask if each thing is fact or not.
If there are no objective facts, your question is meaningless.
This web page is entirely a construct of words. Within the word world we can speak of facts and not facts, but these are conditions that follow rules inside of a language game that has no necessary relationship to reality.
How, pray tell, can you assert knowledge gained from a perspective that is not subjective?
How can you make arguments in a world without objective truth? If there is no right and wrong, then what exactly do your statements and arguments establish, other than a vague notion of perspective?
If I accept what you say as true, if you tell me that I am wrong, you only mean that you have a different perspective. It doesn't actually mean I'm wrong in any way.
And this applies, even if I assert that there is objective truth, since that statement doesn't get a special pleading exception.
Logic. That's the closest thing to objective truth we have.
"No right and wrong" is not the same as no objective truth.
Right and wrong, however, are even more obviously subjective - especially in the moral sense.
But back to Tony's point above about walking on the lake - asserting that truth is not objective is not the same as saying that there is no truth or that anything you believe is correct or that anybody's perspective is just as valid as anyone else's.
It just means that there is NEVER truth apart from context, apart from assumptions, apart from RELATIVITY of perspective.
To bring it back to Einstein, two events may be simultaneous from one point of observation but not from another - which is correct? Which perspective is the "objectively true" one?
We can still use physics, though - my central point is that even though all of us see approximately the same thing and can speak of a kind of shared truth, there is an infinite gap between that and believing that there is an objective truth that some people have some special sort of access to and that trumps all other perspectives.
Apparently, all of these statements are subjective, and should not be treated as objectively right or wrong. Therefore, if someone says, believes, or acts inconsistent with them, it really doesn't matter:
"Desiring objective truth does not make objective truth necessary."
"But there isn't one. So falsification is a straw man."
"If there are no objective facts, your question is meaningless."
These statements are neither right nor wrong, they just embody your perspective and assumptions, and, based on those assumptions, no one should feel compelled to embrace them or think consistently with them, or be bothered if they contradict them. Because it's all just a matter of perspective.
So, even when I assume what you say is true, I've already contradicted what you've established, by embracing the idea of truth.
I'm not saying you can't do it, but because of this point:
So, even when I assume what you say is true, I've already contradicted what you've established, by embracing the idea of truth.
You can't do it and embrace logic simultaneously. Because you essentially want A and not A to be false sometimes. You can do it, but, at that point, telling someone they're "right" or "wrong" has no objective meaning, even when they disagree with you in the topic at hand: the existence of objective truth.
*sorry: A and not A to be true
Also, a strawman is usually when you restate someones argument into a different argument, so that you can refute an argument that isn't being made. How is falsification a straw man, in this context?
Because I am saying there are no objective facts. In such a context, falsification is not a relevant concept.
Don't get me wrong - I didn't set out here to get involved in a meticulous discussion of metaphysics, so I'm not being super careful in tossing around terminology.
I got started on this by pointing out to Tony that objectivity in humans is not possible, and maybe even moreso in journalists.
The existence of objective truth and its relationship to fact and the provability of fact is not something I claim to have all the answers on, and I'm certainly not going to start building a bunker here to defend this line I find myself taking.
I can shorthand it by saying Foucault was a big influence on my thinking on this, and I'm certainly not arguing for some kind of total subjectivism where no statements have any sort of relative truth value whatsoever.
Whether or not objective truth or objective facts exist, I don't believe that we, as humans, have any right to ever call our perspectives objective.
You're not making a distinction between truth and fact.
Saying there are no objective facts is not the same as saying there is no truth.
There does even seem to be a kind of thing that we might call "objective truth" in a highly qualified way, but this is not the same as "objective fact."
I would even argue that the fact of logic itself (i.e. that it exists and we can recognize it) belies a kind of objective truth that underpins our subjective perspectives.
All I'm saying is that you don't get to see that - all you get to have is logic and good faith attempts to apply that logic to what you (subjectively) observe.
And that is why no reporter can ever possibly be objective (just to bring it back to the topic).
There does even seem to be a kind of thing that we might call "objective truth" in a highly qualified way, but this is not the same as "objective fact."
fact: noun 1. a thing that is indisputably the case..
true: adjective 1. in accordance with fact or reality.
We must be disagreeing on our definitions, because truth and fact are close enough to me to use them interchangeably. What do you think the big difference is?
A logical argument can have internal truth without having factual correspondence.
That is the essence of rationalism: logic disconnected from reality and sense experience. Too many libertarians are yet to discover the absurdity of the rationalist methodology; it's mysticism all over agian.
I don't think you and I agree on what objectivity is. You seem to think objectivity means "free of perspective", and then refute this by pointing out that we all have perspective.
I prefer this definition: Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings. Objective truth doesn't mean truth believed by someone without biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings, but something that is true outside of these things, i.e., irregardless of bias, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings.
A far as Einstein goes, people can perceive different events differently, but the equations that define relativity are objective: in what way do the equations themselves depend on perspective? They don't, as you say: we can use physics. Physics is true outside of bias, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings. This implies that it is objective.
You cut to the heart of it right here, and I absolutely agree that you and I are butting heads over different definitions of objectivity.
An important aside on those rules of physics - even Einstein was sure to clarify that the rules of physics that we know are derived from our subjective experience of physics on the earth's surface. The rules change, for example, inside black holes.
Does it really matter to us in the end that the rules change inside black holes? No.
In pragmatic terms are differences in our perspectives when it comes to things like the laws of nature significant? No.
Is it true that if you take two objects and set them next to two other objects you will have four objects, regardless of what human counts them? Yes.
Can humans ever perceive or understand reality objectively? No.
And you lose the argument for using "irregardless." From my perspective, that is not a word.
And you lose the argument for using "irregardless." From my perspective, that is not a word.
That's fine. From my perspective, it's an informal word that has been used for over two centuries.
The existence of objective truth does not imply that we all have the same perspective. We can disagree about reality. This just implies that, in many cases, someone is right, and someone is wrong. Based on this definition:
, this implies that I'm right and you're wrong. 🙂
Reality is what it is (objective reality), regardless of what relativistic spin men may choose to put upon it. Rand was right, but philosophy is yet to catch up with her; lamestream philosophy is still stuck on the mysticism (rationalism) of Plato, Descartes and Kant, the mind-stunting skepticism of Hume, the oceans of semantic gibberish which proliferated in Kant's wake in the 20th century.
As Rand was fond of saying, it's earlier than you think.
Tony, all journalism is done by human beings, for human beings. Bias is inevitable. There is simply no possible way to present all the details of all the possible stories; choices must be made, and those choices will be biased.
What is poisonous is the very idea that unbiased reporting is even possible, It allows people who are being presented with a bias with which they agree to fool themselves into thinking that they have been presented with all sides of an issue. Further, the pretense of lack of bias blunts passion. I don't avoid the New York Times because of its liberal bias. I avoid it because it is dull.
I do believe there is a cancer on modern reporting: the cancer of false equivalence. Apparently you can slap a political party on your bullshit, and it's treated as equally valid an opinion as the other side, just because someone uttered it.
I get that we're all human and fallible. But there is the conscientious attempt to be objective, and there is throwing your hands up and retreating to your own preferred brand of propaganda. I am no vulgar relativist. Facts are imperfect, but we do have the means to verify them to an acceptable degree.
As a vulgar relativist, I actually agree with you with there is a notion of false equivalence that can be puzzling, and the Fairness Doctrine was an outgrowth of that.
There is no reason in the world why there would be only and exactly two ways to look at every issue, but this is the notion that the Fairness Doctrine was based on.
If there are only two possible views, however, the assumption that naturally engenders is that one is right and the other is wrong.
Why would we feel an obligation to hear out the side that's wrong out of a sense that it would be unfair not to?
However, once you start thinking that ALL humans have legitimate perspectives, things get more complicated.
Is my perspective that you cannot walk atop a lake equally as legitimate as your perspective that you can? What of the (apparent) fact that this hypothesis is easily testable?
When did I say I could walk atop a lake?
To clarify, if I were to say I could walk atop a lake, that wouldn't accord with my OWN perspective, let alone yours.
There is a difference between relativity and delusion.
delusion is all examples of subjectivity.
reality is the 1 example of objectivity.
the difference between the 2 (delusion, subjectivity) is of presentation not essence.
its delusional to prefer slavery for a virtuous upright society. its delusional to prefer freedom for a hive of scum and villainy.
as USA continues down this statist path it becomes more and more deserving of the restrictions based on its own decadence.
if ppl will not be governed by intellectual/moral principle than they need an iron-fisted law. mass shootings are one barometer for such a society.
freedom is the correct objective state of good decent persons. bondage is the correct objective state for criminals. to find the bad you must invade the liberty of the good (the potential of subjecting them to scrutiny). when bad reach a tipping point its easier (and better approximates what is correct) to apply bondage to all.
the problem with progressives is that bondage CAUSES social unrest, and it certainly does not remedy it. it asks ppl to live below potential and not take accountability for their own existence.
libertarianism is wholly unfit to rule a culture of vice. there is a critical mass where enough persons voluntarily choose virtue where its possible, but below that it cannot function. and that voluntary choice is governed by aggregation of individuals, not some intrinsic convergence of the human spirit. simply leaving ppl alone will not guarantee any outcome. it needs a moral vector if you want virtue.
just as general liberty is unfit to govern lawless, the same for US oligarchy. it affords many freedoms that are simply not possible with a more corrupt population. bring in mexican style law enforcement and you will need martial law (fema camps).
prisons are a perfect example of to lower end of this. they cannot function with liberty..based solely on (in)voluntary adherence to virtue.
potential freedom is a function of virtue. when leaders hold back the population's freedom when citizenry has the moral capacity to bear more of it, its tyranny.
when its motivated by a desire to control/dominate its evil. if you were a progressive based on the prediction that the population was about to get superevil i would say your stance is not inherently evil, just tyrannical.
scum need statism or else they ransack the joint.
No. There is no real objectivity in the news cycle. Never was. Never will be. What there was, once, was the understanding that paper A was Democrat, paper B was Republican, and Paper C was receiving redo venus on their bridgework. People who wanted to be really informed read at least two papers.
Any news source will be biased. The idea that an UNBIASED news source is possible is an absurdity.
Reason Tony has a distinct political agenda. That means it's not trustworthy as a source of facts.
FIFY.
Oh, and it goes so well with the next part:
Nothing wrong with having an agenda, but without a baseline of objectivity then everyone ends up shouting slogans and nobody ends up informed about anything.
Psh!
"That means it's not trustworthy as a source of facts. Nothing wrong with having an agenda, but without a baseline of objectivity then everyone ends up shouting slogans and nobody ends up informed about anything."
And NYT is not?
Wow.
Just.
Wow.
Then again.
It's, you know, Tony.
So please name this objective journalism? Where is it? Is it NYT, NBC, CBS, ABC, Washington Post?
Maddow:
"You don't know me!!!"
+1
+2
+3
So many people I know don't recognize the subtle bias of reporting from establishment media. Those journalists shape opinion for so many casual and careless news consumers and they know it.
As the article notes, they are spinning the shit out Obamacare and people don't bother to check the facts themselves.
I heard two people talking at work today about Chad Henderson and calling him a Republican "plant" to try to ruin Obamacare.
And all those NP Rangers? Why, the work for the GOP, don't they? It's the GOP's fault that kids can't play on the beach!
The mind boggles. Seriously, an Obama campaign operative who lied his face off to make Obama look good is a Republican plant?
I mean, how do you even engage with that level of pure, concrete-headed stupidity?
Those journalists shape opinion for so many casual and careless news consumers and they know it.
I heard a really good example of bias and opinion making on ABC radio yesterday during a newsbreak. There was a quick report about kids with cancer not being accepted into NHS now because of the shutdown. They played a quote from a mom of one of those kids crying and saying "how can they do this to us" and then the voice over " so we asked republican congressman xxx" and played a quote of him mumbling something about process. End of report. The Republican cam across as an uncaring asshole that was killing sick kids.
Now the story would take on a completely different spin if they had asked Harry Reid or played his why would we want to do that quote.
"By any measure, it's a lot less destructive than what we had for decades: media feigning impartiality."
Uh, we *still* have that. Most of the media claim to be impartial and the list far enough to port to require salvage operations.
I am old enough to remember the "good old days" of impartial media when the fairness doctrine ruled. The idea of fairness was to ask both sides the same question so
The Republican Senator would be asked - Why do Republicans want to destroy Social Security and leave old people to starve?
The Democratic Senator would be asked - Why do Republicans want to destroy Social Security and leave old people to starve?
That was considered to be impartial.
Have you ever listened to NPR and noticed some of the various ways they tend to frame their interviews? It's not quite so obvious as you presented, but it's intent is the same.
They'll start with the NPR host talking about the subject. Then they'll interview a Left wing source. Then they'll interview a Right wing source. Then they'll finish up with a "impacted person".
All of this on appears impartial on the surface. However, most of the time the "impacted person" is someone who explicitly agrees with the Left wing position.
So they frame the debate in the following manner, "neutral" interviewer preps subject, Official Left wing source, Official Right wing source, "impacted person" who's story reinforces the Left wing source.
The end result is implicit bias, but in a format that superficially appears "neutral".
I've notice this, too - NPR is one of the worst for seeming objective when they are very much not.
They're tilting rightward by even implicitly acknowledging the legitimacy of the rightwing point-of-view, at least in most cases these days.
??
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "tilting rightward." We must have very different ideas of what that means.
Are you really saying that them acknowledging that there are perpectives based on different assumptions than theirs is somehow "tilting rightward?"
Tony|10.11.13 @ 7:03PM|#
"They're tilting rightward by even implicitly acknowledging the legitimacy of the rightwing point-of-view, at least in most cases these days."
Translation from brain-dead:
'Take 'em to the cellar and shoot 'em; they don't obey!'
They're tilting rightward by even implicitly acknowledging the legitimacy of the rightwing point-of-view, at least in most cases these days.
And that is a typical authoritarian point of view. It fits with the current "false equivalency" meme continuously repeated by the Left as part of their talking points.
The idea is to try and push the point of view that the other side is so bad and/or evil that even allowing them to talk or considering their ideas is unacceptable.
I noticed that too.
Planet Money seems to have a more free market tilt these days.
"Media bias is a perpetual grievance of the right -- for obvious reasons."
Since Fox News started it is a grievance of the Left as well, except they openly talk about finding ways to have the State shut Media they don't like down.
The actual real left (i.e. not the Democratic Party poseur-left) has ALWAYS complained about media bias, going back decades.
The Republicans are newcomers at this.
Having a point of view doesn't preclude a political journalist from being honest or curious or a critical thinker
Being a member of the left wing political apparatus does preclude you from being a critical thinker.
"The key to making it work isn't impartiality; it's diversity."
Diversity is an old old wooden ship.
When facts take a spin ? NBC's editing of the Zimmerman tape comes to mind ? is when I have a problem with the lack of objectivism.
I don't care so much that a person has view and they push that view (their persuasions are fairly evident), but when they try to "change" the facts ? Candy Crowley in the Presidential Debate ? that needs to be lambasted and those people need to be called out.
This is the world we get when facts are relative... FOX News makes more factual distortions in an hour than what you've listed here.
"FOX News makes more factual distortions in an hour than what you've listed here."
Cites missing, asshole.
Tony, you know you're on Reason.com, not HuffPost right?
Please post your facts, your head is spinning so fast that your brain is being damaged...
That wasn't my confusion, it was whether I was at Reason or Breitbart. Your evidence for media bias consisted of two widely publicized incidents (one of which isn't even true as you characterize it) that paint the right as the one with the grievance, while not acknowledging the giant problem with facts the rightwing media have. It's a mote vs. log problem.
Again, it not an issue of "the Right's grievance". As an (I) it's the TRUTH's grievance. You have yet to post a single fact regarding Fox News (see your comment above).
Regarding your comment "two widely publicized incidents (one of which isn't even true as you characterize it)", PLEASE post where Obama stated it was a terrorist attack in Benghazi. Clinton and Obama were adamant it was the video, not a terrorist attack.
You are truly swimming in your own head of confusion? PLEASE post ONE fact about Fox News lying like NBC or Obama stating Benghazi was a terrorist attack as Crowley "interjected".
Who gives a shit about Fox? Yeah, they're biased too
Calidissident|10.11.13 @ 7:48PM|#
"Who gives a shit about Fox? Yeah, they're biased too"
That isn't in question. It was asshole's claim that "FOX News makes more factual distortions in an hour than what you've listed here".
Natch, asshole has no cite for that.
And the NYT had a fraud plagiarist on their payroll for a long time. And then there's Dan Rather.
Fuck off, Tony.
I hate progressives EXACTLY for this reason.
And Mike Barnacle appears regularly on Morning Joe on MSNBC.
whatever distortions fox news is doing for 4 years straight does not compare to a single lie during a presidential debate.
crowley's desire to misinform the public came at a crucial moment and she injected herself into a debate (as a participant) she was SUPPOSED to moderate when she affirmed a lie.
no dog in the fight? neutral? hmm.
Would a state-run media count as "partisan"?
Hey, PBS and NPR are the non-partisan voice of the Washington establishment.
Why doesn't Reason have a show on our publicly funded media (PBS & NPR)??
Oh, forgot, you can't challenge their bias or you get fired - Juan Williams...
Yes, that episode is very revealing. Juan Williams expressed his opinion, it was not Politically Correct, and the supposedly neutral and tolerant state media terminated his contract.
The most insidious is the local news. There isn't an alternative for local focused stories, but all of the national stories could be straight from MSNBC or NYT. The casual news consumer tunes in for 30 minutes, gets local news, weather, sports and a heavy dose of indoctrination on national policy.
The entire story turned out to be bogus. But it took Peter Suderman at libertarian Reason -- a place where, one might imagine, the ideological sensibilities of the staff are naturally skeptical about feel-good collectivist enterprises -- to debunk every angle of the story.
Might be a good idea to provide a link.
Just saying.
OK, my somewhat belated contribution:
1) There *is* an objective reality, some truth-claims are true, some are false.
2) I wouldn't necessarily trust someone with a journalism degree and a fairly limited education in economics, science, liberal arts, etc. to be able to tell truth from falsity. When they carry around a bunch of prejudices, the chances are reduced. When you add laziness to ignorance and bias, then you see how far they are from being reliable oracles of the Truth.
3) For the typical ignorant/biased/lazy journalist, I prefer they stick to interviewing the various parties involved in a story and getting the various perspectives, leaving it to the specialists to make specific judgments on truth or falsity. Eg, someone with credentials, or better still experience, in the topic they're writing about. And even then, they should be balanced out with other experts who have different viewpoints.
It's not about relativism, in other words, because the truth exists and can be discovered. The process of discovering the truth, however, involves more than leaving the question to be adjudicated by some talking hairdo on the telly.
I gather from other posts of yours' I've read that you're Roman Catholic.
There's a legitimate argument to be made that if there is a God, then God's perspective is the objective one.
There's a great book by a very neglected Catholic thinker named Thomas Bradwardine called _De causa Dei contra Pelagianos modernos_ in which he explains why even though God's perspective is objective by its nature, a human perspective never can be, even hypothetically.
Myself, I'm an agnostic, but I don't place much stock in my own opinions.
God's perspective may be objective, but what if he lies or is misleading when he communicates? God would appear to be an interested party about everything in the universe, so you couldn't take his testimony as objective.
I did the mistake of telling my left-wing Massachusetts friend about a friend of mine who enjoyed living in Texas better than California. He answered to the effect "I assume you're friend never plans to need abortion and contraceptions for his daughter because he's rich blah, blah" something, something. It was an uncalled for ad hominen that literally left me perplexed. I replied "ad hominen aside, he's just calling it as he sees it. It's his opinion. What the fuck does abortion have to do with it."
Apparently, accordingly to liberals, it's settled, empirical fact abortion and contraception is good for the economy?
I heard this in another form when another friend of mine argued years ago "abortion is good because it means a child won't be a drain on the economy once the mother can't take care of it." Never mind about the discussion on what to do with "retarded" children.
To me, it's an unfortunate, cynical position but it passes for rational thought among people I guess.
The only response I had "imagine if Hawkins mother aborted him. The world would not have witnessed his works."
Hawkins' disease didn't show up until he was about thirty.
My bad.
I guess the question then can be asked, with the technology we have, if she (or anyone for that matter) knew in advance he would be afflicted with a disease, is aborting the baby wrong?
We had friends who were told their baby risked being born with Down Syndrome and after painful debate opted to abort. It didn't get that far as she miscarried.
Tough all around,
I agree absolutely - tough all around.
Abortion is a horrific thing, but then so is condemning someone to living a lifetime with a horrific disease.
my friend's step-sister makes $84/hr on the computer. She has been laid off for nine months but last month her check was $21144 just working on the computer for a few hours. Continue Reading
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I always thought a good format for modern journalism would be a dual-editorial perspective running things. You've got a lefty partisan and right-winger running the journalists. Only once they both agree on a piece, does it go live in whatever medium they distribute their output.
Well there is Crossfire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfire_(TV_series)
Crossfire isn't a commie and a fascist editing journalism, its just a commie and a fascist arguing.
It is an absurd injustice to treat the subject of media bias as if it were equal. On the right, you've got Fox News; on the left, you've got EVERYTHING ELSE, for fuck's sake! We live in a country full of brainwashed, collectivized sheep who call themselves "free thinkers" while mindlessly parroting the stale bromides they've been told to think, and who call themselves "liberals" while (unknowingly) advocating fascism and totalitarianism.
Not only that, but the leftoid media bias is exponentially more pernicious and destructive since it mirrors the indoctrination we all received during our young lives. Everything we were taught in government schools, in fascist universities, in leftwing trash literature and music and art, it's all the same sewer from which the leftoid media continues to delude the people, to destroy their minds and self-confidence, to produce slaves terrified of freedom.
That's something lefties and wingnusts don't get. FOX News crushes the other news outfits not because it's the top dog in town, but because its the only news game in town for half the population.
MSNBC and CNN don't compete with FOX, they compete with each other, plus the Daily Show and Colbert to boot.
Does that explain why Beck and O'Reilly outsell their liberal counterparts in publishing?
You could throw Mark Levine in that group as well. But what do liberals read? Its not political commentary told from a third person - it's not the way libs go about their politics. Libs are about the personal anecdote, both in their political advocacy and their books.
Barack Obama did not write a book about politics per se, but about his political 'journey' through life. And that fool's navel-gazing tripe has sold quite well.
And you can't miss liberal cults; Al 'Jazeera' Gore's publishing mini-empire advocating his Church of Carbon Clowntology has moved some copies.
That is the kind of stuff liberals read; different market gets served with different product.
i'm fearful that we're so used to the crap that msnbc and fox, etc. throw our way, that we've begun to think that's the way it should be and anyone else is just wasting their time doing something else.
Uh, objective journalism has never existed. Media bias is just out of whack because of the education system. The reporting of Hanging Chad was a deliberate deception on the part of the WaPo. The cover is they didna kno! It's not like they wired a gas tank to explode or anything.
Oh yeah, by the way, it's called 'fiction'.
or misrepresented stock footage of stunned fish
or planted lynx hair on a fencepost
Mr. Harsanyi,
You wrote: "Bias is found in not what you write but what you don't...."
Surely you meant: "Bias is found not just in what you write...."
i find this annoying as well.
this is at least as glaring as a typo.
Since I started fre+lancing I've been bringing in $90 bucks/h? I sit at home and i am doing my work from my laptop. The best thing is that i get more time to spent with my family and with my kids and in the same time i can earn enough to support them... You can do it too. Start here for more work detail go to home tab ---------- w?w?w.j?o?b?s?7?2.c?o?m
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As usual, Tony wins the award for dumbest posts on this thread.
If one is not omniscient, one is biased. No one is omniscient, so everyone is biased. The goal is to be less biased. We are all biased, but should strive to minimize it. Tony is certain he has all of reality figured out, or at least enough of it to be able to know how everyone should live. That is why he feels so confident that he is objective. That and his being a douche fit for Gaias vagina.
The people making editorial decisions for the various news organizations may all believe they're doing the best job possible at recognizing the truth. (That's true at Reason, isn't it?) It's our job to recognize their prejudices and blind spots. We can't realistically expect them to do it for themselves.
my roomate's mother makes $82/hour on the internet. She has been without a job for 9 months but last month her check was $15166 just working on the internet for a few hours. look at this now
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