U2's Bono Defends Himself for Not Paying Every Penny in Taxes he Could
Rock messiah Bono has some interesting things to say about his obligation to pay taxes to the utmost possible extent in Ireland, in The Guardian.

The interviewer asks Bono about:
the band's decision to offshore part of their income through the Netherlands to avoid tax. Was it not hypocrisy for you to try to hold the Irish government to account for its spending while going through fairly exhaustive efforts to avoid paying into the Irish exchequer yourself?
It is not an intellectually rigorous position unless you understand that at the heart of the Irish economy has always been the philosophy of tax competitiveness. Tax competitiveness has taken our country out of poverty. People in the revenue accept that if you engage in that policy then some people are going to go out, and some people are coming in. It has been a successful policy. On the cranky left that is very annoying, I can see that. But tax competitiveness is why Ireland has stayed afloat. When the Germans tried to impose a different tax regime on the country in exchange for a bailout, the taoiseach said they would rather not have the bailout. So U2 is in total harmony with our government's philosophy.
That might seem a trifle Jesuitical--the Irish government itself recognizes that people will make decisions about where their income is officially coming from based on tax policy, so we are of one mind on this!--but it's a start. Maybe someday a start toward "I have no moral obligation to let any government decide what to do with my justly earned income when I can make those decisions just fine myself, thank you."
I blogged last year about Bono's wising up about the vital importance of commerce and market capitalism for economic development. In this interview he makes a statement that an Ayn Rand would find very telling, not to say damning: "And though I believe that capitalism has been the most effective ideology we have known in taking people out of extreme poverty, I don't think it is the only thing that can do it, and in some ways I wish it wasn't." But it's nice he at least recognizes the reality of markets' benefits, even if not (yet) their morality.
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"And though I believe that capitalism has been the most effective ideology we have known in taking people out of extreme poverty, I don't think it is the only thing that can do it, and in some ways I wish it wasn't."
Sounds like Bono still hasn't found what he's looking for.
If I may quote another singer, "So close, so close and yet so far."
"This is NOT a protest song!" - Bono re: Sunday Bloody Sunday paying his taxes
Capitalism isn't a perfect system. No system is. It is just the least bad system available. I see nothing wrong with wishing there were something better as long as you understand that nothing really is.
Sometimes you remind me of Winston Churchill...
It is true. It is not that capitalism is all that great. It is that the alternatives are fucking monstrous.
Capitalism isn't a system as much as a description of the reality that life is hard and most people have to work for whatever they get. Every other system is just man being conned into pretending there is a short cut around that.
I completely agree here.
I agree. As I always say, "Markets just 'are'."
Adam Smith described the way people are, not one system among many that man could institute. He basically wrote a documentary. Finally actually read the whole thing - holy fuck - what a slog! But worth it.
I made it 20 pages in and was losing focus. I need to get back to it but it is intimidating in size and not exactly the most "exciting" material.
Is there some translation for children? I really want my children to read this but it wasn't easy for me. He and Rand could really have used a decent editor.
You could read P.J. O'Rourke's book on it.
Miserable slog? Yes. Worth it? No.
As I always say, "Markets just 'are'."
I respect the argument. But, I really think that a more precise formulation would be "Markets are just people." When you talk about a "free market", what you mean is people free to buy and sell at their own discretion. When you talk about "regulating the market" or "controlling market forces", what you're talking about is regulating people's behavior and controlling their decisions.
Markets are like gravity is. Governments distort the hell out of them, try to eliminate them and control them, but the market does what it wants and flows around obstacles exactly like water flows around dams and culverts. They may distort gravity's actions, but they don't change the fact that gravity wants water at a lower elevation.
If all other "systems" are worse, then I would submit that makes capitalism perfect. Is there another definition of "perfect" I'm not aware of?
Last I looked "best" and "perfect" were not the same word and did not have the same meaning.
Is there some kind of new English that you speak that I am not aware of?
I am trying to rid the world of Platonism, one post at a time.
per?fect
adjective
1.having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
verb
1.make (something) completely free from faults or defects, or as close to such a condition as possible.
Capitalism is the best system POSSIBLE, and therefore perfect.
You are apparently trying to rid the world of logic and the English language of meaning as well.
Just because you don't believe in ideals actually existing, doesn't mean you reject the concept of an ideal. Indeed, you couldn't do that or you wouldn't be able to reject their existence.
That has to be the most pedantic, stupid and pointless post I have ever read on Reason.
Your tantrum is not a refutation of my point.
I cited the dictionary and made a reasonable case that the word "perfect" needs to have some utility outside of Heaven or Nirvana. I don't see you making your case very well.
No.
You cited a dictionary which said the word perfect, has several meanings, one of which is "best possible". Well, that is nice. But that is not the sense I used the word. I used the word to mean flawless. The fact that is can mean "best possible" doesn't mean it has to mean that. And it doesn't mean using it to mean "without flaw" is wrong.
So, when I say "Capitalism is not perfect", saying "perfect can mean best available" doesn't refute my point or even speak to my point since I wasn't using the term "perfect" in the way you describe it.
Moreover, pointing out any real world system has flaws is neither an embrace nor a rejection of the Platonic ideal. It is just pointing out the obvious.
Wait, what? This sounds like the BS Ontological Argument, only much more poorly stated.
To reject the existence of an ideal, you have to know what an "ideal" is. If you want to reject Platonism, have fun. But you can't do that and then deny that there is any such word or concept of an "ideal". If there wasn't, you wouldn't have anything to reject. You may not believe in the "perfect", but you certainly understand what the word means even if you don't think that translates into anything in the actual world.
You're not even being coherent here. I never made any of the denials you're attributing to me.
The problem with Plato (and the religion he spawned) is that his ideal was alleged to exist in a supernatural dimension, which IS impossible to achieve on earth.
Read Rand. The real is the ideal.
Gold is best. Best. Best. Best.
It is not that capitalism is all that great. It is that the alternatives are fucking monstrous.
I agree this is true; I'd also like to note that when the monstrous systems are forced upon a society, society always reverts to some form of capitalism whether it's legal or not.
But there is a perfect system:
Number 12 Looks Just Like You
Capitalism isn't a perfect system.
Oh yes it is. It is morally and practically perfect. It is a system of free exchange that allows us to get richer and richer.
No. A perfect system would produce a just result in every case. Capitalism doesn't do that. Some people are very successful despite not being deserving and other people are failures because of bad luck or circumstances beyond their control. Capitalism can pretty much guarantee success on the macro scale. But it makes no such promises on the individual scale. Man's inability to accept that flaw is where he gets in trouble and starts doing destructive things in the hope of fixing it.
A perfect system would produce a just result in every case
Which is, for all intents and purposes, impossible.
Sure it is. But a lot of people don't agree and think that it is possible. And thus our troubles begin.
Not "for all intents and purposes". It's impossible as a matter of course, and necessarily so, because justice is a subjective, not an objective phenomenon.
Given that there is no system that can produce a "just result in every case", that means you are saying you can never achieve perfection. The word "perfection" needs to have a meaning outside of "Heaven" or "The Land of the Perfect Forms", John. What are you comparing capitalism to in declaring it imperfect?
No, John's right; to observe "perfection" in Capitalism as a third party, it cannot be done, because you value different things differently.
Capitalism can only be perfect to the individual, which in that since, I think it is. But once you move to 3rd party observation it fails the test of "perfection," for the lack of an entirely uninterested third party.
Why does a system need a third party observer to be perfect?
Why does a system need a third party observer to be perfect?
While capitalism may be perfect to me, an outside observer may say "It's not fair that he only paid (x) for (y)! (Z) got robbed!" And Z always exists. Either Z gets his way and I get wronged, or I get my way and Z *feels* wronged, by capitalism.
To which, I'd add, the solution is that people need to learn to mind their own fucking business.
I don't think Z's illogicality somehow imperfects capitalism.
If you want to redefine perfect to mean "best possible" and never "without flaw", good for you. But why don't you do that by inventing your own language instead of destroying English?
You may think that "perfect means best possible", but the rest of mankind doesn't see that way. And when they think perfect, they think it means flawless. You can tell them "no perfect means best possible" but they are just going to think you are a half wit.
You may think that "perfect means best possible", but the rest of mankind doesn't see that way.
Perfect, to me, means I get what I want and you get what you want, without any coercion by any party.
which in that since
In that sense, goddamnit. My brain is fucked today.
The word "perfection" needs to have a meaning outside of "Heaven" or "The Land of the Perfect Forms"
Needs? Fucking bizarre. Why, for the love of Science? Do other words "need" meaning outside their current usage also?
Yes, for instance "Needs" now includes "Wants".
Capitalism has no moral content. It's neither good nor bad. Values come from elsewhere.
Well, it doesn't unless you believe that voluntary choice is a value.
We can achieve freedom with or without him.
I've never given him too much shit though the music hasn't in my opinion stood up very well because he always seemed self aware (okay, 'Three chords and the truth' speech is a truly brain dead, but that's still stage persona theater) and not just a glib attention seeking protesty asshole. He's been saying stuff like this for most of career, I'm not really surprised by it.
If anything Bono is doing his part to push the Irish government to alter its tax code to punish entities like U2 who, in sending money offshore, deprive the land of ire of resources.
Bono: Fuck You That's Why
But Ireland was set up as a tax haven! How can this be?
(corporate rate is 12%)
Bush's fault, most likely.
You truly are a fucking moron. Outstanding.
Another Peanut incapable of argument pipes in.
so very Zen
It's obvious isn't it Shreek? We need high tax rates and special exemptions to preferred businesses in order to have great tax policy. Low rates with no special preferences don't work!
Fuck you.
So what is the top marginal rate on individuals in Ireland?
"High" and "low" don't mean shit without perspective.
41%
I don't know why I am continuing this...
But, this isn't about individual rates. Ireland ended their tax exemption for artists. What's a U2 to do? Move operations to the Netherlands where they do give special treatment to artists.
Once again, you're a fucking moron.
"Ireland ended their tax exemption for artists"
Pretty sure that won't affect Bono.
My favorite Bono joke. He's doin' a concert in Glasgow, and between songs, tells the audience a story, seeking their support for charitable causes.
He starts clapping his hands, slowly, and says....
Bono: "Every time I clap my hands, somewhere in the world, a child dies.
*pregnant pause in the audience*
Glaswegian Soccer Fan: "WELL THEN STOP CLAPPIN' YER FOKIN' HANDS!"
HAHAHAHA! THIS IS WHAT GLASWEGIANS ACTUALLY BELIEVE! It's funny because it's TRUE! GET IT!?!
So anyhooo....
So....Ranger or Celtic?
*narrows gaze and sharpens claymore*
What if I say Queen's Park?
Rattle and Hum (live) would be much better without the preaching.
So would Bullet to Blue Sky. And a lot of other things.
Am I buggin' you? Cuz I don't mean to bug ya.
"That might seem a trifle Jesuitical"
You misspelled "hypocritical".
Is there any proof Ignatius Loyola actually existed?
"Here's a group of musical vermin whose mothers we wish had had a medical plan that included abortion: These singers who think they're so special they only need one name. Bono, Sting, Jewel, Tiffany, Prince. What a crock of shit! Get a fucking last name, would you please? Here's a nice two word name for you; Pretentious Cocksucker! Huh, how do you like that, Bono? It's not bad enough the music sucks, but with no last name, you can't find out where these people live so you can throw a fuckin' bomb through their window! It's frustrating."
--George Carlin
If only George were alive today to see HOW MUCH FUCKING WORSE IT'S BECOME!
"We're a warlike people! Why? Because we're GOOD at it! We average one major war every 20 years! "
"We can't make a decent television anymore, but we can bomb the shit out of your country!"
George Carlin sucks.
I got to see him live once. It was great. About all I can remember was "You ever notice at those anti-abortion rallies? You wouldn't want to fuck any of them anyway!"
*sniff*
I miss him.
He pretty that backwards though. The College Republicans that organized the protest on my campus back in the day were nothing but the hottest girls at the school. I remember thinking what a damn shame it was.
He pretty much got that backwards.
I dunno. Most anti-abortion protests I've seen were frumpy church ladies who look like they haven't been laid in a decade.
Its a generational thing. If you went to one before 1990ish, it was dour church ladies. Then they got wise and started recruiting young, healthy, and good-looking people. Then there was a wave of technical virginity. Which was awesome.
I've seen some good-looking prolife protesters. Of course, we can't all be models of physical perfection like Carlin.
I knew there was something I hated about you. That assessment pretty much gets at the gist of it. You probably find Margaret Cho to be hilarious, and sexy, as she is the anti-Carlin.
You must hate homosexuals. Because Cho is homosexual. So if you don't like her humor, it must be because you hate homosexuals. Why do you hate homosexuals?
Because they all wanna get married and make little homosexual butt babies, or in the case of lesbians, two half human homosexuals that form into one little homosexual baby when their pregnant mommas pop them out at the same moment while scissoring each other. They're freaky abominations! That shot ain't right!
Margaret Cho sucks too.
Who do you like then? Lewis Black?
I AM GOING TO YELL MY OPINIONS! I AM FUNNY!
Randian has no sense of humor. You should know that by now. Everything is serious. All the time. Randian is too important for humor.
this is correct.
The guy was a cynical little worm with an ugly sense of life, and he presented the same-old Augustinian view of man as an exponent of modern wisdom.
Fuck Carlin.
This.
Does Bono have a defense for advocating that the governments give away money that it taxed from one person so they can give it to others?
Maybe Bono finally noticed the similarity between the drag on his earnings imposed by evilly rapacious business managers and the Irish government.
Yes, but it did not stop him from advocating taking my tax dollars and giving it away to others.
So... occupy Wall Street, Bono is not. Props to Bono. But if the words "fair share" ever pass through his lips...
He's actually a convert from what I understand. At least I know he used to be pretty much a commie.
He's from Ireland... and he's in a band... there's always going to be some commie in him somewhere. But maybe he can be cleaned up and civilized.
He used to feel, but I believe he's learned to think.
I kept the crap in my office, nursed it, fed it biddy. And soon biddy made him strong. Biddy made him grow up! Into one of the most influential figures of our time.
"Was it not hypocrisy for you to try to hold the Irish government to account for its spending while going through fairly exhaustive efforts to avoid paying into the Irish exchequer yourself?"
I love the inference made by his interviewer that somehow one can only criticize or vocalize an opinion on governmental spending if they are forking over the absolute maximum in payments and that somehow Bono and U2 have forfeited any say in the matter. That their basic desire to not see their hard earned wealth confiscated and squandered is somehow hypocritical.
You criticize the spending habits of your alcoholic brother, and yet you do not give him money when he asks for it.
Are you a hypocrite?
No. You are a hypocrite if you continue to give him money in spite of your objections.
The Beatles were more courageous with "Taxman".
...and although they did write a song that could be seen as praising the USSR, it was really about how hot Russian chicks are. ...and who can blame them for that?
I guess that's where my libertarianism breaks down, too: Yeah, central planning, gulags, yada, yada, yada...they got some really nice chicks over there!
Back in the USSR -- it was obviously tongue in cheek sarcasm. I don't know of anyone who didn't get that.
I don't think anybody on the right side of the political spectrum understood that back then. Hell, I bet a third of them thought the Beatles were a communist plot anyway.
And...I might be wrong about this, but I don't think most people knew that Russia had a never ending source of hot chicks back then, either. We only found out about that after the wall came down. Russian women were thought to look like Babushkas or the steroid filled East German swim team.
I think people back then thought the Beatles were just makin' it up, that they were just looking for an excuse to say something nice about the USSR.
Hell, I bet a third of them thought the Beatles were a communist plot anyway.
Well, they did follow European football, which is obviously a Communist plot.
I don't think anybody on the right side of the political spectrum understood that back then. Hell, I bet a third of them thought the Beatles were a communist plot anyway.
They are not that stupid. You made up a straw man there. The sarcasm in the song is its most prominent feature. It was written in an era where the Western idea of a Russian woman was a babushka, not the thin blond stripper in the club with the extra refined cheek bones.
I heard it myself...
There were lots of people who thought hippies and rock and roll were a communist plot meant to corrupt American children.
Look at this newspaper image from the '60s--read the article:
http://news.google.com/newspap.....07,4637501
Then go look at this interview, and start with the question the reporter asks the Beatles...
"Q: "What do you think of the charge that all this Beatle-type music is a big communist plot to downgrade and morally degrade American youth?"
http://www.beatlesinterviews.o.....atles.html
I mean, I heard people say stuff like that myself when I was a little kid.
They were still saying stuff like that in evangelical churches back in the early '80s.
Incidentally, the Russians often denounced rock and roll as a capitalist plot to corrupt Russian you, too.
Where's Charles Paul Freund when you need him?
I'll agree though, it's pretty stupid to think of the Beatles as anything other than arch-capitalist when they have an attitude like this:
M.C: "What about the banning of The Beatles in Indonesia?"
JOHN: "Well, I mean... it's just stupid, you know."
GEORGE: "We were bitterly disappointed."
PAUL: "He should have just sent them back to us instead of burning them, and we would have flogged them half-price."
RINGO: "It's foolish, you know."
GEORGE: "The thing is, he must have bought them to have burned them, so we'll still get the royalties."
PAUL: "Yeah, that's right."
Need a hand with those goal posts? That's about the hypnotic effects of rock and roll breaking down the mental and moral fiber of our nation making our youth susceptible to communist influences and the hands of pamphleteers mingling amongst the rock and roll show crowds, not anything to do with your wildly inaccurate interpretation of how right wingers interpreted the song, as well as the error in your assumption that it was really about hot Russian chicks. It was sarcastic, which means, 'Those Ukraine girls really knock me out, leave the West behind. Not!' By the mid 60s, the communist system and Stalin's policies wrenched all the beauty out of those people leaving mostly leathery old hags. They were not known for beauty then as they are now.
You'd do better by citing them making fun of people "carrying pictures of Chairman Mao" 'cause the thing is? Ukrainian girls really do knock me out...me and a lot of other people, too.
Look at this photo...
http://www.strategypage.com/mi.....70418.aspx
If they were tryin' to make fun of how Soviet women look, then the Soviets must have been laughing their heads off. The Ukrainian army's got like whole brigades of smokin' hot chicks! Wow, if they could train those chicks to be cops? nobody'd ever put up a fight again...
I'd be like, "You wanna put me in handcuffs? Yeah, baby, whatever turns you on. I'm up for that".
Back in the USSR -- it was obviously tongue in cheek sarcasm
And a direct response to the Beach Boys claiming that no one could sound like them.
Sounds like an urban legend to me. I know that Paul McCartney was (rightfully) in awe of Brian Wilson as a songwriter. I think it was tongue-in-cheek but also an homage.
And if the goal was to sound like the Beach Boys, they did a pretty piss poor job of it. Driving rock beat, honkey-tonk piano, no multi-part harmonies, not polished sounding at all.
They did put in the Brian Wilson part, with high falsetto, though.
And the classic BB turnaround during the refrain, yes. But is was just Paul, not the multi-part harmony that was the BB trademark.
Just because they didn't do it as well as the Beach Boys doesn't mean they weren't attempting to do so.
He's definitely imitating Brian Wilson's falsetto in the background.
If they just wanted to imitate the BB boys I think they could have gotten a lot closer. I'm going with tongue-in-cheek and homage.
It all comes down to sex, in the end.
Who wants a system where you can't move up in social class and compete?
I have a theory about the flow of hot chicks drifting towards affluence, too.
Whatever other trade imbalances the fall of communism brought to an end, it's the hot chick imbalance that was the worst.
I was standing in line behind this Russian chick at a Whole Foods in a La Jolla a while back; she looked like everything you ever wanted for Christmas. Just made you glad to be alive so you could see her. ...and as I'm trying to chat her up, I'm thinking, "Thank God the wall came down".
"Who wants a system where you can't move up in social class and compete?"
Our current credentialed elite class, from which most politicians and their rich buddies hail, sure as hell would love that to be the case. They like where they are, and more important, they like where the rest of us peons are, and would love to keep it that way.
"That might seem a trifle Jesuitical"
Like Pope Francis?
What's the supposed hypocrisy? You think a government is spending irresponsibly, so consistency demands that you pay it more money?
"consistency" means "consistency with *my* opinions." Didn't you know that?
Was it not hypocrisy for you to try to hold the Irish government to account for its spending while going through fairly exhaustive efforts to avoid paying into the Irish exchequer yourself?
It would only be hypocritical if he criticized the government for not spending enough.
OK, the perfection discussion is probably over, but here's why John's right:
Imagine 5 children taking a math test consisting of ten questions.
Here are their grades:
A - 90%
B - 80%
C - 70%
D - 60%
E - 50%
Now, student A has the best score at 90%. But he did not have a "perfect" test score. That would be 100%.
The fact that no student scored higher than 90% on the test in no way changes the fact that a "perfect" test score would have been 100%.
I wonder if these people pissed with Bono not paying all the taxes they think he should spend as much time scrutinizing the returns of the big libs such as Jeffrey Immelt, George Soros, or Ted Turner, just to name a few.