Edward Snowden

The Individual's Moral Code vs. the Bureaucracy's Moral Code

The necessity of civil disobedience.

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Peter Ludlow has a fine essay in The New York Times about whistleblowing, civil disobedience, the logic of large bureaucracies, and what he calls "attempts to condemn, support, demonize, psychoanalyze and in some cases canonize figures like Aaron Swartz, Jeremy Hammond, Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden." You should read the whole thing, but here's an excerpt:

He dares call it treason. But he's a bit of a nut.
Gage Skidmore

In a June Op-Ed in The Times, David Brooks made a case for why he thought Snowden was wrong to leak information about the Prism surveillance program. His reasoning cleanly framed the alternative to the moral code endorsed by Swartz, Manning and Snowden. "For society to function well," he wrote, "there have to be basic levels of trust and cooperation, a respect for institutions and deference to common procedures. By deciding to unilaterally leak secret N.S.A. documents, Snowden has betrayed all of these things."…The former United States ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, argued that Snowden "thinks he's smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us…that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants. I say that is the worst form of treason."

For the leaker and whistleblower the answer to Bolton is that there can be no expectation that the system will act morally of its own accord. Systems are optimized for their own survival and preventing the system from doing evil may well require breaking with organizational niceties, protocols or laws. It requires stepping outside of one's assigned organizational role. The chief executive is not in a better position to recognize systemic evil than is a middle level manager or, for that matter, an IT contractor. Recognizing systemic evil does not require rank or intelligence, just honesty of vision.

Bonus link: Ludlow starred in this old Reason story.

NEXT: A. Barton Hinkle on Libertarianism and the Virginia Governor's Race

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  1. So ya
    Thought ya
    Might like to
    Go to the show
    To feel the warm thrill of confusion
    That space cadet glow

    http://goo.gl/ccfhPT

  2. You know what? FUCK COLLECTIVISTS. I am so fucking sick of these scumbag sheep trying to drag me into their collective schemes. Of them saying I am in their tribe, in their group. Fuck them in the ear with a rusty spoon.

    1. GODDAMNIT EPI, you join the libertarian tribe OR IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN!

    2. What’s wrong with you? Don’t you know that there have to be basic levels of trust and cooperation, a respect for institutions and deference to common procedures, especially when it turns out that the institution had no basic level of trust, cooperation and deference to common procedures.

    3. You’re one of the 299,999,999 of us. Us… US!!!

  3. Bureaucracy’s Moral Code

    Ahahahaha, good one.

    1. Yeah, I never realized that “fuck you, that’s why” could be considered a moral code.

    2. The moral code of the State and its bureaucracy is opposite that of its subjects.

      For an individual lying is dishonorable, but for the State it is noble. For an individual to spy and otherwise intrude upon his neighbors is despicable, but for the State it is essential.

      And, as Rothbard puts it:

      The State habitually commits mass murder, which it calls “war,” or sometimes “suppression of subversion”; the State engages in enslavement into its military forces, which it calls “conscription”; and it lives and has its being in the practice of forcible theft, which it calls “taxation.”

      1. That’s an extremely shallow observation.

  4. Sometimes I wonder if “David Brooks” is Tulpa’s pen name.

    1. David Brooks is a progressive’s progressive, and he’s peddled as the token conservative.

  5. “For society to function well,” he wrote, “there have to be basic levels of trust and cooperation, a respect for institutions and deference to common procedures. By deciding to unilaterally leak secret N.S.A. documents, Snowden has betrayed all of these things.”

    That isn’t a condemnation of Snowden. That’s Snowden’s condemnation of the NSA.

    The NSA destroyed our basic level of trust. The NSA has no respect for institutions such as the judiciary, and refused to defer to common procedures.

    The NSA is guilty of everything Snowden is being accused of, here.

    1. Some famous dead guy once said, “I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong.”

      Collectivists tend to believe you still have to stand with your folks when they go wrong because, y’know, tribe. It’s not a suicide pact, etc.

    2. Like when Dunphy blames distrust for police on news outlets that publicize police misconduct instead of the actions of the police themselves.

      1. Like when Dunphy blames distrust for police on news outlets that publicize police misconduct instead of the actions of the police themselves.

        Who is Dunphy and why would he say something like that?

        1. Dunphy is a cop who posts here. Haven’t seen him in a few weeks. His posts are often obnoxious and make excuses for police misconduct

          1. To his credit, he’s a cop who wants to see marijuana legalized, etc.

            It’s just that when he sees police brutality stories, he often defends the police, and that makes him pretty unpopular sometimes.

            I happen to think having a cop around to absorb all the libertarian opinions we can expose him to is a good thing. Wasn’t nobody born libertarian, and in Libertopia, we’ll need libertarian cops.

            1. Dunphy is a cop who posts here… His posts are often obnoxious and make excuses for police misconduct

              This is a problem I have seen with some officers. They want to make excuses and shift blame for the actions of their fellow officers. What they don’t realize is that it reflects badly on all of us.

              I will say some of the things I have see here are simple mistakes by officers that could be corrected with training. But you have to admit you screwed up first.

            2. in Libertopia, we’ll need libertarian cops.

              It would be a lot easier to respect law enforcement if the laws they enforced were moral and just. I find it difficult to respect people who cheerfully enforce unjust and immoral laws.

              1. unjust and immoral laws.

                To you. Not everyone shares your morals. To them the laws may be just and moral. Baptists and bootleggers, just saying.

                1. Justice is an absence of injustice. When laws dole out punishment when no injustice has occurred, then the law is unjust and the enforcement of the law is an injustice. Just saying.

                  1. Justice is an absence of injustice. When laws dole out punishment when no injustice has occurred, then the law is unjust and the enforcement of the law is an injustice.

                    That is your definition of justice. Others may have a different definition; and therefor wouldn’t see what they were doing as unjust or immoral.

                    As an aside, I saw that your dad was caught in the CO floods. Glad he is ok. I have friends who were airlifted out of Lyons on Sunday.

                    1. Others may have a different definition; and therefor wouldn’t see what they were doing as unjust or immoral.

                      Or they don’t give a shit about justice or morality, and care only for their power.

                2. Laws that make things illegal between two consenting adults or create victimless “crimes” are immoral and unjust.

                  Just because some retarded Christian dogooder Democrat thinks that doing drugs is immoral, doesn’t make a law making drugs illegal moral. For example.

      2. Yeah, so long as people still believed in lies, they thought everything was okay, and they think the problem is that no one believes their lies like they used to.

        Change our practices?! Hell no.

        We just gotta find a way to unring that bell.

  6. What happened to “one man with courage makes a majority”? I guess Andrew Jackson isn’t a Democrat anymore.

    I can’t believe what an amoral idiot Bolton is. Loyalty to institution goes only so far as that institution’s loyalty to the over arching tenants of morality. I get the whole duty honor country thing. There is a point at which you have a moral duty to break with an institution. Now, I don’t know if that point was reached with Snowden and the NSA. But that debate debate doesn’t matter when talking about Bolton because Bolton doesn’t think it should ever occur. It would be one thing if Bolton said that what the NSA did not justify Snowden breaking his oath and alliance to it. But that is not what he said. He said

    “thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us…that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants.

    Bolton isn’t saying Snowden is wrong. He is saying Snowden could not conceivably be right. If the institution says its moral, it must be. Bolton should be run out of public life and polite society for saying such a thing.

    1. Not only that, he left out 14 million of “us.”

      I make my own moral judgments, which, in most situations, appear to be vastly better than those made by the government or even by most of my fellow citizens. So yes, I don’t relinquish my morals and ethics to the majority.

    2. I should be amazed that Bolton sees the government and the people as the same thing, I guess. But I’m not.

      1. I think he sees the government as the shepherd of the people, and he thinks the flock is only safe from the wolves so long as it follows the shepherd.

        So, he wants us to believe that the government and the people are one. And that’s not just an aside for him–he thinks it’s really important that people believe in the government.

        1. Save from what? It’s not like we’re facing down commies with thousands of nukes pointed at us. Yet they act like the threat is far worse today. An obvious sign that what they really want is to protect their jobs and power, despite the declining need for either.

            1. Terrorists.

              Enemies.

              Russians.

              That’s the world he lives in.

              1. No one mentioned North Korea? The most powerful adversary on the planetoid!

        2. Yeah, and just remember, the shepherd only tends the flock because he intends to fleece them and eventually eat them. The wolves are just competition.

          1. Boom. I’m using that.

  7. The former United States ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, argued that Snowden “thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us…that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants. I say that is the worst form of treason.”

    Don’t you just love it when in a moment of passion, Neo-cons let loose their true Fascist credentials?

    1. Certainly he has a higher morality than Bolton.

  8. Fascism, straight up. Nothing outside the state, nothing against the state. Individual morality and ethics must always and everywhere be subjugated to the imperatives of the organs of the state.

    Getting tired of the ash from those concentration camp ovens getting all over everthing? Not to worry, comrade; your betters have determined it is in the collective interest to run the incinerators 24/7.

    If you see something, say nothing.

    1. That Bolton statement is just that. What is remarkable about it is how crude it is. Bolton is supposed to be a top man. He is supposed to be smarter than the rest of us. But he apparently isn’t smart enough to explain why what the NSA was doing isn’t so bad that it justified Snowden breaking his oath. Instead he reverts to the crudest might makes right argument available.

      It never fails to surprise me how when push comes to shove our various top men are never particularly intelligent (and nowhere near as intelligent as they claim to be) and always slip into the crudest form of authoritarianism when backed into a corner.

      1. But they can’t explain it to you, John, because that would “reveal sources and methods”.

        So you see, there is a secret gnosis that explains everything, but your eyes (and mine) are too soiled to hear it.

        You need to trust. Just trust.

        1. Either that or Bolton is an idiot who loves power.

          1. Why can’t it be both? 🙁

      2. Bolton believes noble lies are a fundamental tool of governance.

        It’s integral to a lot of what he’s done–from passing on those forged Niger yellowcake documents on down.

        I suspect he thinks that our constitutional rights are based on a noble lie that has outlived its usefulness.

        I think leaks and the internet have made it harder to use noble lies the way governments used to. Noble lies were fundamental to what Leo Strauss was all about, but Leo Strauss didn’t account for the internet.

        20 years ago, no one could fact check the loud mouth in your local bar, but now everybody can see whether what he says checks out on their phones. Government officials spouting noble lies have the same problem–especially when the electronic beans can be spilled by someone with a conscience at any moment…

        Of course he hates Snowden and Wikileaks. They make noble liars like him obsolete.

      3. It’s a phenomenon I see more and more often. The arguments from the TOP MEN on both Teams seem to be increasingly goonish. As little as ten or fifteen years ago, you could at least count on them to make an argument that seemed like it was approximating coherency. Now, they’re making arguments that a thug in a dive bar could see through.

    2. Institutions don’t have morality–individuals do. If even a single person says no, really bad things might not happen at all or, at least, be mitigated. A few nos to Nazism might’ve saved tens of millions of lives.

      1. You don’t worry your little head about such things. We’ll take care of things. And even if we don’t take care of things, we’ll take care of things.

        Now, scoot!

  9. What is striking to me is what’s implicit in Brooks’ and Bolton’s statement: that the public facade of the United States is a lie, and that we’re all supposed to be in on the lie and play along.

    If we were properly “mediated”, we would know that our government’s secrets must be kept so that the public lie can be maintained. That’s what Brooks is saying pretty much directly. And destroying the public lie by providing evidence of its falsehood is treason, to Bolton, because the real nation is not the public story we tell about our ideals, but the hidden, black ops nation that is never to be mentioned.

    1. Yeah. This statement is even worse in some ways that the one I quote above

      “there have to be basic levels of trust and cooperation, a respect for institutions and deference to common procedures. By deciding to unilaterally leak secret N.S.A. documents, Snowden has betrayed all of these things.

      Bolton isn’t saying that Snowden hurt the interests of the US by making it harder to conduct operations and gather intelligence and such. He was not content with that. He goes further to say that Snowden destroyed trusts in institutions. That is a very strange thing for him to say. The only way it makes any sense is if you assume the things you describe.

      Part of me wonders if that is what he actually meant. Not that he didn’t clearly imply it but that he didn’t mean to. By that, Bolden is one of these top men who spends his entire life around people who tell him how great his farts smell. That makes one very lazy in their thinking and speaking. I really wonder if he wasn’t just talking out of his ass here and trying to sound more important and make an even bigger argument than the obvious, Snowden hurt the US. In short, I don’t know that I give Bolton enough credit to fully attribute to him the implications of his statements.

      1. Don’t get caught in that Shitnado!

  10. Thinking for yourself is the worst form of treason.

    1. Snark aside, there are people who actually believe that.

  11. BTW the DC police chief basically just said two shooters got away and are somewhere in DC.

    Probably more BS that will be exploded as the day goes on, but if not, I expect Boston-style lockdown and martial law for DC shortly.

    1. From my experience, the DC Police couldn’t find their ass with both hands.

      1. Unfortunately for the residents of DC, there would be a whole alphabet soup of armed agencies competing to show who can be the most martial-y about their martial law.

        I hope not that many get Dornered or caught in accidental inter-agency shootouts.

        1. Here is a short list of the various law enforcement agencies in this city. This is what I can name off the top of my head

          FBI,
          DEA
          ICE
          CBP
          Park Police
          Supreme Court Police
          Secret Service
          US Marshalls
          Metro PD
          Transit Police
          Capitol Police
          Secret Service

          And of course all of the various suburban jurisdictions. And I bet I have forgotten one or two.

            1. I knew I would forget at least one. And Army CID, Navy CIS.

              1. NCIS is a real thing? Well shit, why don’t they just put that foxy chick with the stupid tattoos and the pigtails on the case?

                1. I like the hot Israeli chick, who I think is actually played by a South American actress.

                    1. Her. She is another one of those fat broads Anon and sarcasmic are always yapping about.

                      http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1580243/

          1. You said Secret Service twice.

            1. Don’t say it again, or they’ll appear!

          2. You left out the EPA and the FDA, both of which we know have armed enforcement squads.

            1. Don’t for get the Park Service and the Dept of Ed.

          3. Postal inspectors too.

            1. A quick glance at wikipedia shoes the following although they may not all be based in the d.c. proper

              Federal agencies

              Most federal agencies have some type of special agent, investigator, or background investigator to include the following:

              Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Office of Inspector General of the CIA Department of Agriculture (USDA) United States Forest Service Office of Law Enforcement and Investigations Office of Inspector General (USDA-OIG) Department of Commerce (USDOC) National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) Office of Export Enforcement (OEE) Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) Food and Drug Administration (FDA)

              Office of Inspector General (HHS-OIG) Department of Education (ED) Office of Inspector General (ED-OIG) Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Coast Guard Investigative Service (CGIS) Immigration and Customs Enforcement / Homeland Security Investigations, (ICE/HSI)

              Cont.

            2. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) United States Secret Service (USSS) Transportation Security Administration (TSA) Federal Protective Service (FPS) Office of Inspector General (DHS-OIG) Department of the Interior (DOI) Bureau of Land Management (BLM) United States Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) United States Park Police (USPP) National Park Service (NPS) Bureau of Indian Affairs Police (BIA) Office of Inspector General (DOI-OIG) United States Department of Labor (DOL-OIG) ? Office of Labor Racketeering and Fraud Investigations Department of Defense (DOD) Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Defense Security Service (DSS) ? Non Law Enforcement United States Army Criminal Investigation Command (USACIDC) United States Army Counterintelligence (Army CI) Pentagon Force Protection Agency (PFPA) Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) United States Marine Corps Criminal Investigation Division (Marine CID Agent) Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) Office of Inspector General (DOD-OIG)

    2. Well, I guess that’s one way to shutdown the government.

    3. Probably more BS that will be exploded as the day goes on, but if not, I expect Boston-style lockdown and martial law for DC shortly.

      I’m not seeing a downside here.

      I think that they should lock down the entire city, no one in or out until they’re caught, tried and convicted… and sentences served.

      John Carpenter can make a movie, Escape from D.C.

  12. Sounds like a very good deal. Wow.

    http://www.Anon-Werkz.tk

  13. “thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us…that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants. I say that is the worst form of treason.”

    That’s what cowards always say of the courageous. He thinks he’s better than me. Projecting because you know he is better than you and the rest of you assholes with a moral compass that only points to the surest path to you collecting a fat pension one day.

    Never got why anyone would want that creep on their side of a debate, Bolton oozes venality.
    I could get major backing if I proposed the construction of Hell on Kickstarter, with assurances Bolton would be first in line for eternal damnation.

    1. Squirrels!!! Why did you let me put the tag at the end of my paragraphs instead of just the quoted parts? Can’t you tell the difference?

      1. Because H&R replaced organic squirrels with cheap, digitally processing squirrels.

  14. “””that Snowden “thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us…that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us,”””

    He did have more information then 299 million of us since the NSA hides its crimes behind secrecy.

  15. there have to be basic levels of trust and cooperation, a respect for institutions and deference to common procedures.

    I am the Lord, thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

    1. Yep. No falser god than government.

      1. And no falser government than god!

  16. OT:

    Moving on already? Liam Hemsworth pictured getting very close to a mystery woman as they party together in Vegas amid reports of his ‘split with Miley Cyrus’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvs…..Cyrus.html

    G’Damn! He definitely traded up!

    1. That ain’t bad. That ain’t bad at all.

    2. How does one not trade up from Cyrus?

      1. Alison Sweeney.

        1. If you are gay maybe. NTTAWWT

          1. This from the person who lusts after SJP. But she is a size zero, she has no boobs and boney legs, so she is kind of your ideal woman, horse face and all.

            1. The only Parker I lust after has initials MLP (I’ve been watching Weeds on Netflix).

              1. I agree with this.

        2. And when I last saw you you were telling us how wonder Tina Fey. You know all size 12 of her.

            1. http://jezebel.com/5100862/wou…..-like-this

              She a raving beauty all right. You are believing photoshops dude. And she was fatter than Sweeney ever was.

              1. She a raving beauty all right. You are believing photoshops dude.

                Really? Do you think they can photoshop T.V. because she’s pretty good looking on 30 Rock.

                She’s lost a lot of weight. That doesn’t mean she’s been photoshopped.

        1. I will take my chances with horse face. Horse face at least is likely not to have a social disease. And besides, she is thin sarcasmic. You would do her.

          1. Basically I’m a sucker for a lady who looks great in tight jeans. SJP does not look great in tight jeans.

            1. How can a woman with no ass look good in tight jeans? You hate any woman that has anything but a flat boney, non existent ass, and no figure. I am not sure the women you like can even wear jeans. They would just fall down to the knees. Maybe if they wore a really tight belt or something.

        2. And besides that blond in the picture with Hemsworth is at least a size four. She is a fucking cow sarcasmic. I am surprised you didn’t vomit when you saw that. If nothing else the side of her having a waist and some actual flesh on her thighs should have totally turned you off. She looks kind of dare I saw female. Totally not your type.

          1. One thing I try not to do is convince other guys to go after the girls I would go after. Why would I want more interference?

        1. Jesus titty fucking Christ, it’s not even 3:00PM yet and the squirrels are already getting bitchy.

  17. “For society to function well,” he wrote, “there have to be basic levels of trust and cooperation, a respect for institutions and deference to common procedures.

    It’s simply mind-blowing that Brooks (and his ilk) don’t see that it’s the NSA that violated that trust and deference.

    1. ^this, and it is why they are so scummy.

    2. Exactly. They don’t even get that what they’re describing is blind faith, not mutual trust.

  18. When the hell did this “trust” bullshit become so popular? It is a total reversal of proper political theory. It is not that you have to have trust in institutions. It is that a functioning society has to have “trustworthy institutions”. That is a huge difference and one that these assholes turn on its head. The focus should be on the institutions. The institutions have to function properly and give the people a reason to trust them. When they don’t and that trust breaks down, your government and society starts to fail or least be damaged. These fuckers have reversed that. They are arguing that since when people stop trusting the institutions societies fail, anyone who doesn’t trust the institutions is committing treason. In these people’s view, the burden is not on the institutions to act in a trustworthy manner, it is on us to trust them no matter what they do.

    1. Well, what Brooks is saying, I think, is that participating in institutions teaches you that they’re all full of shit, but that we must love them anyway.

      That’s what he laments about Snowden. Snowden was too “atomized” to have had the right experiences that would have acclimated him to the viewpoint that it’s hopeless to expect institutions to be trustworthy and it’s up to us to try to incrementally change them from within in ways that don’t damage their public image.

      1. That is insane. I think Bolton is just an idiot who was blathering without thinking. If he believes that, he needs to be in an institution somewhere.

        1. Bolton is very credential-smart. Someone like that might support “communal ethics” (loyalty, obediance, hierarchy) for the simple, selfish reason that they do very well in large institutions.

    2. It is not that you have to have trust in institutions. It is that a functioning society has to have “trustworthy institutions”.

      Well said John.

      1. It’s a huge cornerstone to our system–institutions which have accountability and legitimacy. Our national security apparatus (along with most of the rest of the government) is close to having zero of either.

        1. I can’t think of anything more important than accountability and legitimacy. As Etienne de la Boetie says, states can collapse in an instant?when consent is withdrawn.

          1. We’re coasting right now on the legitimacy of our past governments.

            1. We’re coasting right now on the legitimacy of our past governments.

              And even they managed to turn it around, there would still be a dip before the public would regain its trust. Just hope the dip isn’t fatal.

              1. Fatal to the Total State? No prob.

                Fatal to society as a whole? Many societies have survived the extinction of a governing class and institutions. I suspect we will, too.

                The only questions are (1) What will the interregnum look like and (2) what will replace our current Total State. I’m not super-optimistic on either, but unless I catch a bullet manning the barricades, I’m pretty sure it won’t be fatal to me (or to society as a whole).

  19. I say that is the worst form of treason.

    Treason is whatever John Bolton says it is.

    Die in a fire, pal.

  20. Whoa, the dead shooter is a retired CPO.

    1. Would almost have to be a military member, if the security on the building in question is anything like what people in the news are saying it is.

    2. Or maybe not:

      http://www.politico.com/blogs/…..72737.html

      Thanks, 24/7!

  21. A CPO going off the deep end is FUCKING STUNNING. Those guys are the backbone of the service.

    1. Is that who did it?

      1. CBS reported the dead shooter was 50 year old retired CPO Rollie Chance.

    2. There were several people involved it appears. There was a white guy and a black guy on the lose from the Wash Times is saying. Seems unlikely that they are white supremacist black helicopter types since there was a black guy involved.

      The only two types of people I could see doing this in a group are either real crazy right wing, the UN is taking over types or Muslims. If it was a mentally ill guy or a disgruntled employee it would have been a lone gunman not a group.

      According the Drudge some nitwit on CNN is saying that they had never heard of a gun man going crazy and shooting people on a military post.

      God, they really want Fort Hood down the memory hole don’t they?

      1. Technically, Nidal Hussein didn’t go crazy. He went evil, but not crazy.

        1. I don’t know. If you ask me, having religious conviction that killing a bunch of people and being willing to sacrifice your life to do so is a good thing to do is pretty crazy.

      2. either real crazy right wing, the UN is taking over types or Muslims

        I really hope it is neither of those. Whenever something like this happens I just hope that it was an angry disabled lesbian midget Native American.

    3. A CPO going off the deep end is FUCKING STUNNING. Those guys are the backbone of the service

      I’ve seen it happen:

      One of the CPO’s in Reactor Department on my ship lost it. Wife called 911 after an argument turned violent. He barricaded himself in the place with his wife as a hostage and his guns directed outward while the cops laid siege on his place.

      Needless to say the CO restricted him to the ship while he awaited trial. He lasted two days in that state before somehow he snuck past our crack security team and disappeared into the night.

      1. Heh, I had a 2nd class PO disappear for a week – WHILE WE WERE UNDERWAY.

        Granted, the ship was a *carrier* but still.

        He hid in a void in one of the CIWS sponsons.

    4. “A CPO going off the deep end is FUCKING STUNNING.”

      What? Seriously? I had an alcoholic SC on on tour who spent more time in rehab than he did on the ship, at least two of my Chiefs were screwing seaman (one screwing one of his own subordinates).

      Had a SC on one ship get busted when he passed out in his truck on a ferry (drunk) and crashed it into another car – the investigation found is under-the-legal-drinking age girlfriend in the truck with him (another sailor).

      Had one lose his chance to make SC because he got caught allowing his people to drink on duty.

      Then there was a whole company of them who decided the unit’s mission wasn’t so important that they’re platoons needed to actually be able to do it.

      CPO’s are important, but from my experience, half of them see it as tenure – ‘I made CPO so I don’t have to worry about being fired or demoted again’.

      That’s why the 20-year board was created – now there’s a board CPO’s have to pass to stay past 20 years.

  22. By corollary to Bolton’s statement, anyone who votes against an incumbent President is a traitor.

  23. CNN seriously just had someone say ‘I can’t remember the last time we had a shooting at a military base.’

    Yeah. It’s not like there was a major story about that which just concluded recently when the shooter was convicted. If that were the case, CNN would look pretty fucking stupid.

    1. As I said, they want Fort Hood down the memory hole. It doesn’t fit the narrative. Islam is the religion of peace and the only threat in this country is angry white males.

    2. I heard on Fox news one of their commentators going on about the AR-15 being extra special scary compared to ‘civilian weapons’ (his phrase I want to clearly emphasize) and the police have to wear extra special gear to counter their firepower. I had to exit out of that shit.

      Jesus Christ. You should not be on camera talking about a subject if you know less about it than I do. You ask about the particulars of my profession, you are going to learn something you didn’t know before asking, if you listen to the newscast your head is going to pick up assumptions that will have to be finely combed through and cleansed out like head lice before you can even start to learn anything.

    1. Don’t let the bodies get cold before you say something stupid Frum. What a fucking scumbag.

    2. Rule 3: All gun owners are to be complimented as responsible and law-abiding until they personally have hurt themselves or somebody else<<br /
      Rule 4: Any attempt to stop mass casualty shootings is “political.” Allowing them to continue is”non-political.”

      Rule 5: Gun ownership is essential to freedom, as in Serbia & Guatemala. Gun restrictions lead to tyranny, as in Australia & Canada.

      1. Rule 3: All gun owners are to be complimented as responsible and law-abiding until they personally have hurt themselves or somebody else

        1. So, what he thinks is that everyone should be forbidden from exercising any freedoms, because those freedoms could be used to harm others? Not just guns, but speech, association, travel, property, etc.

          What a cataclysmically absurd and stupid line of thinking.

          1. Somehow the squrrels ate the rest of the comment. He thinks gun owners should not have the presumption of innocence. Frum is profoundly stupid. But he has managed to succeed in life by being a sociopath willing to say or do anything to get ahead.

          2. It’s Frum. He very likely does believe that.

            1. I don’t get all of these authoritarians. Where did they come from? Isn’t there some other country they could go to?

              1. Why? His boot licking is going quite well here.

                1. I’ll never understand how that flies here, of all places. It didn’t take long, historically speaking, for us to lose our way.

      2. Rule 3: All gun owners are to be complimented as responsible and law-abiding until they personally have hurt themselves or somebody else

        Well, yes, shithead. It’s called presumption of innocence, and it’s only the basis of our entire fucking justice system. Maybe we should just throw that whole thing out the window too. What an asshole.

      3. There are plenty of Canadians who do not abide by those gun laws, especially in the rural areas who are indistinguishable from Americans in their gun culture ethic.

        Australian laws are a recent development, and reflect an unhealthy trend towards a progressive political order.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G….._Australia

        Gun politics have only become a notable issue in Australia since the 1980s. Low levels of violent crime through much of the 20th century kept levels of public concern about firearms low. In the last two decades of the century, following several high profile multiple murders and a media campaign, the Australian government co-ordinated more restrictive firearms legislation with all state governments.

      4. Rule 5: Gun ownership is essential to freedom, as in Serbia & Guatemala. Gun restrictions lead to tyranny, as in Australia & Canada.

        Huh. I wonder how Norway is making out with their hyper-restrictive guns laws? It must be some kind of peaceful utopia there.

        1. Guns were not only essential to survival in Serbia, but to one’s life as well when the US Government started arming poor, disgruntled, Islamist to reign hell on the ‘burbs.

          Notice a confluence of trends?

          1. You seem to lack a respect in institutions.

            1. I just notice who tends to be the subject of their animosity and whom they most desire to subdue over the past few decades. What communists of old would call the ‘counter-revolutionary’ element of the bourgeoisie, are the same people Islamist, who tend to get our funding, call ‘Western influenced heretics’ with cries to ‘rinse the burbs’ of the decadent strains. It’s not a coincidence how this has played out before, and continues to do so.

          2. Guns were not only essential to survival freedom in Serbia, . . .

        2. I can’t remember the last time Norway had a mass shooting.

    3. If only Frum respected the gun controls laws of Syria as much as he does those in the United Sates and not backed arming an Islamist resistance movement a couple hundred thousand lives could have been saved. No? Just following his argument to its logical conclusion.

      1. Those rebels should just lie back and enjoy the Assad regime. That’s what I’m hearing Frum excrete.

  24. For society to function well,” he wrote, “there have to be basic levels of trust and cooperation, a respect for institutions and deference to common procedures. By deciding to unilaterally leak secret N.S.A. documents, Snowden has betrayed all of these things”

    So, for Brooks, it isn’t the act of behaving untrustworthily that destroys trust, but the act of identifying such behavior as untrustworthy that destroys it.

    No wonder our society is in free-fall. It’s “best and brightest” have the mentality of barbarians. The identification of a thing is the thing. Snowden is guilty of pronouncing the killing word.

    1. “It’s “best and brightest” have the mentality of barbarians. ”
      Dude if a barbarian heard you say that he’d give you an axe in the head, by Crom. Barbarian societies generally don’t tolerate leaders lying like that.

  25. “For society to function well,” he wrote, “there have to be basic levels of trust and cooperation, a respect for institutions and deference to common procedures. By deciding to unilaterally leak secret N.S.A. documents, Snowden has betrayed all of these things.”…The former United States ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, argued that Snowden “thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us…that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants. I say that is the worst form of treason.”

    What these two dishonest hacks mean is:

    STOP SNITCHIN’.

    1. SNITCHES GET STITCHES

    2. The trust for these institutions has been broken because of the actions of those institutions. That’s not the fault of those who are telling the truth about them.

  26. The former United States ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, argued that Snowden “thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us…t

    Don’t be silly, John. Snowden doesn’t think he’s smarter than everyone else. But, he’s sure as hell smarter than you, which admittedly isn’t much of a challenge. And the fact that he has any morals at all puts him well beyond the reach of folks like you and your ilk.

    1. As a law firm partner of mine once said: “You don’t have to be the smartest guy in the room. Just don’t be the dumbest.”

      1. Don’t be Tony.

  27. that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us

    He could, because most of us were prevented from seeing anything at all.

  28. “thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us…that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants. I say that is the worst form of treason.”

    This is pure mush. I’m sure Bolton doesn’t want to take a vote on these policies, or he’d find that substantially less than 299,999,999 Americans support this garbage. In fact, if they read the idiocy quoted above, we could probably get a majority in favor of hanging John Bolton by his thumbs. And of course, until Snowden did what he did, we couldn’t very well poll the public on their opinion, could we?

    Bolton is just making noises that he hopes his tribe will nod along with, nothing more.

  29. “”thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us…that he can see clearer than other 299,999,999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants. I say that is the worst form of treason.”
    No he’s saying that he has a higher morality than those who knew what was happening and said nothing. Given that what was happening was blatant violation of people’s rights and repeated lying about it IN CONGRESS. So who is the immoral one, one who keeps an oath that shields oathbreakers, or one who keeps it?

  30. Presumably Bolton would consider it a lesser treason if Snowden had instead sold his info to a foreign state. That would be keeping it in the family ? a rival sibling, perhaps, but still a sibling ? and it wouldn’t be the great sin of acting on his own initiative.

    Or maybe if Snowden had graduated from Yale …

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