Rand Paul Reax: 'bizarre,' 'one of the major foreign policy speeches of this still young century,' Just Like His Father, Not Enough Like His Father, etc.
Rand Paul's big foreign policy speech at Heritage yesterday (read it here; follow-up here) has drawn a lot of interesting and disparate reaction. Here's a sampling:
Washington Post political columnist Dana Milbank says that "Rand Paul is more like his father after all":
[T]he only military intervention Paul explicitly supported in his speech was attacking al-Qaeda in Afghanistan — a conflict even his father voted to authorize. Later, in a conference call with reporters, I asked Paul whether there was any other military intervention in the past 30 or 40 years he would have supported. That left a wide range of possibilities — Vietnam, Panama, Kuwait, Somalia, Haiti, the Balkans, Iraq, Libya — but he declined to name one.
The apple, it would appear, doesn't fall far from the tree. […]
In his call with reporters later, he returned to a tone that sounded more isolationist — or, as modern isolationists call themselves, non-interventionists. "We supported a concept of radical jihad against the Soviets, and it came back to bite us," he said. "Some people argue keeping the shah in power ultimately came back to bite us." Calling for the United States to "be more hesitant," he argued that in Syria "we shouldn't be arming one side or the other." […]
If this makes Rand Paul a foreign policy realist, so's his old man.
Antiwar.com's John Glaser, on the other hand, says "Paul tried to advocate a foreign policy of restraint, but couched it in the rhetoric of interventionists":
Paul suggested the United States reapply its Cold War strategies of engagement, aggression, and containment to the 21st century's version of a Soviet threat: "Radical Islam."
But does America really face such an overarching threat? […]
Few Americans will be persuaded of non-intervention if they are constantly reminded of minor, indirect threats through the oversimplified rhetoric of politicians.
The Washington Free Beacon quotes a bunch of neoconservatives calling Sen. Paul naive:
Danielle Pletka, vice-president for foreign and defense policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, said Paul's speech failed to address the actual debates among foreign policy experts.
"I respect the thoughtful tone and the enthusiastic research that went into the senator's speech," said Pletka. "Unfortunately, the restraint that he calls for in addressing the challenges of the day is directed toward straw men. Who has suggested we invade Iran? Or Syria? Or anywhere else?"
The speech may have also set back Paul's outreach to the pro-Israel community.
One senior official at a prominent D.C. Jewish organization called it "frankly bizarre" and "outside the bipartisan political and policy consensus." […]
"From looking at Sen. Paul's speech, we're not quite talking about the same ideas of containment," [said Lee] Smith[, a fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies]. "What containment means for him is the same as what it means for the most of the commentariat and probably most of the Obama administration. 'Containment' just means anything but the use of military force."
More reaction after the jump.
The American Conservative's Daniel Larison declares himself "puzzled" at Paul's discussion of radical Islam:
Referring to "radical Islam" as if it were a unified movement or cause obscures the different goals of varying jihadist groups, and it potentially leads to the error of lumping together all Islamist groups regardless of their goals and methods. This can lead to confusing statements, such as one that Sen. Paul makes a little later: "Though at times stateless, radical Islam is also supported by radicalized nations such as Iran." The Iranian regime supports specific Islamist proxies, but it can't be said to support a generic "radical Islam." Iran doesn't sponsor the jihadist groups most responsible for security threats to the U.S. and Europe. If the goal is avoid making the mistake of early Cold War anticommunists, who interpreted containment doctrine far too broadly, it's important to distinguish jihadist groups from one another according to the political objectives of each one. It's also important to distinguish between jihadists' theoretically global ambitions and their normally very limited means. Containment implies opposition to some form of expansionism, but in this case there is no expansionism to be contained.
More from Jennifer Rubin ("the speech is based on a giant fallacy"), Ralph Z. Hallow ("this may go down as one of the major foreign policy speeches of this still young century"), Aaron Blake ("the difference between Rand Paul and his father is that Rand is taking care to massage his message of limited intervention and show Republicans how it fits into their existing worldview"), Jews 4 Rand Paul ("well thought out and had a lot of food for thought"), and David Freedlander ("I'm not my dad!").
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In his call with reporters later, he returned to a tone that sounded more isolationist ? or, as modern isolationists call themselves, non-interventionists.
It's unfortunate that so many "journalists" are retarded.
I mentioned in the morning links that Mussolini was a journalist. I wonder if that's who many journalists aspire to be? Do you think they study his rise to power in J-school?
It's every douchebag with a column getting so wrapped up in US vs THEM TEAM play that all they ever present anymore are two equally idiotic but opposed viewpoint. As far as I can tell, the only thing they study in J-school is their own dicks.
Only a very small mind sees things in terms of an artificial dichotomy. The world is much bigger and complicated than most journalists--and most people in general--think.
I don't think having more than two choices makes things complicated, it just means there are more options. TEAM people can only frame their messages in TEAM format. I guess TEAM gotta be TEAM.
I don't mean complicated as in unknowable. I just mean more complex than, "Republican said X; must support opposite of X."
Oh, well then. Complicated and complex are two different words.
Don't start a pedant fight with me. I'll crush you.
Are you saying one should never engage a lawyer in a pedant battle when death is on the line?
Inconceivable!
Pro Lib has spent the last few years building up an immunity to pedantry.
See how well he does in the Fire Swamp?
Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Morons.
Is this a kissing thread?
Wait, just wait.
Mussolini was a journalist. Journalists are journalists. Therefore, journalists are Mussolini.
It's the transitive property.
At least he made the trains run on time!
Actually, he didn't. He claimed to have done so in that magical way that politicians do whereby saying a thing is so makes it so. See also, PPACA.
I wonder what they would call my "don't mess around in other countries, but if someone attacks us turn their entire country into smoking rubble and then go home". Is that isolationist too?
Yes, that's isolationist. Why do you hate America and it's children so much, you anti-semitic pussy?
See, I actually hate everyone else's children and this is just a warhawk strategy to kill them all.
Said the propagandist, or as modern propagandists call themselves, journalists.
Rand... LOBSTER!
Maybe you can explain the Fred Schneider photo, because I can't.
Same hair?
I'm starting to think maybe Rand wears a rug.
Ridiculous. That's clearly a possum.
It took me a bit of staring to confirm that it was, in fact, not Rand Paul.
My own Private Libertopia
I ain't no student
Of ancient culture
Before I talk I should read a book
But there's one thing that I do know:
There's a lot of ruin
In Keynesopotamia!
ATOMIC DRONE MISSILES FALLING FROM THE SKYYYYYY, WHERE'S MY UMBRELLLLLAAAAAAA?
No one? Despite the mainstream popularity of Love Shack, Cosmic Thing was a pretty great album.
Get high & listen to "Topaz".
The Washington Free Beacon quotes a bunch of neoconservatives calling Sen. Paul naive
Looks like Welch just proved himself a retard. Go get him, John.
He does that quite frequently.
Explain? Even dumb people appreciate self-improvement.
Let it be, Matt. If you get a glimpse of John's mind you may become irrevocably insane. Your usage of the word neoconservative means you're a retard, IHNSHO.
I actually use that word very rarely, and usually when talking about the way *other* people conceptualize it (i.e., Rand Paul has repeatedly insisted that Tea Party principles are in fundamental conflict with the "neoconservatism" that has "tainted" the GOP).
Here, the Free Beacon, which I think can accurately be described as a neoconservative publication, quotes a bunch of people who I think can accurately be described as neoconservatives. But I'm happy to be proven wrong.
What do you think the term means Matt? It seems to be a catch all term for "anyone who doesn't agree with the speaker about foreign policy".
More important than the names of people affiliated with neo-conservatism are the views they adhere to. Here is a brief summary of the general understanding of what neocons believe:
1. They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.
2. They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.
3. They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.
4. They accept the notion that the ends justify the means ? that hard-ball politics is a moral necessity.
5. They express no opposition to the welfare state.
6. They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.
7. They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.
8. They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.
9. They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.
10. They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised.
11. They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.
12. They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.
13. Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable. Force should not be limited to the defense of our country.
14. 9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.
15. They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists).
16. They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.
17. They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.
From a Ron Paul speech from 2003.
Rob,
I can't think of a single person who believes all of that, much less the Free Beacon. For most it is a meaningless term to stand in for "I don't like you". For paranoid nuts it is a long and elaborate set of beliefs that read like something out of the Protocols of the Elder Zion.
general understanding
Notice Paul's use of that term. I think that means that they dont necessarily support every one of those points.
But if someone gets to 13 or 14, they are probably a neocon.
And which one of those points do the Kristols not support?
For that matter, which point does John not support?
#5, I think.
Nearly all of it Francisco. But I get called a NEOCON all of the time because the term doesn't mean anything other than "I don't like you".
People call me a NEOCON because they can't understand the idea that someone could disagree with them yet not be a part of some dreaded "other". Yes, it is not just liberals who fall into that trap. It is human nature.
That's just it John.
You can't believe counter to the NAP and be considered moral.
All libertarian principles stem from and can be traced back to the NAP. Unless your philosophy/politics stems from this you are immoral.
Republicans
Democrats
Statists
Socialists
Communists...
And all groups falling within. All immoral. PERIOD!
It's not that we don't like you, it's that you're wrong.
You can't believe counter to the NAP and be considered moral.
Oh come on.
By all means, give me an example where it's okay to infringe upon the rights of others (first) and it be considered moral?
Serve it up.
Serve it up.
Would you kill a stranger to save another stranger's life?
Circumstances matter, but on its face, no.
Circumstances matter
If you're sticking to a moral absolutist view, which your tone makes it sound like you are, no they don't.
How about the good old Kantian Nazis at the door problem? Is it OK to lie if it saves the people hiding in your attic?
You mean the Nazis chasing innocent people? Who initiated the force in that situation?
The Nazis demanding I surrender my guests at the point of a gun?
The Nazis demanding I surrender my guests at the point of a gun?
No, they show up at your door and ask if you have any Jews in the house. They make no direct threats against you.
They do not need to make direct threats against me to have initiated force. They are chasing innocent people.
Do you imply the NAP only applies to wrongdoing against one's self? What if it's my daughter they're after? My wife? It does not go against the NAP to bring justice to those who've initiated force against others (innocent others).
So in your example, it is perfectly justifiable to lie.
Who initiated the force in that situation?
Are you claiming that you're free to lie to the Nazis since they have an implied use of force against you?
For the previous example, let's say you see two men running down the street one chasing the other. The man who is chasing has a gun and is shooting at the other. If you had the means to do so, would you stop him?
Is that all I know about the situation?
If so, no, I would not. For all I know he could be chasing the man who just raped and killed his wife.
For all I know he could be chasing the man who just raped and killed his wife.
What if the shooter's wife was just raped and killed but not by the man he is chasing? What if he has the wrong guy?
And I have this knowledge?
If yes, and I had the ability, I'd use only non-lethal force, as he is initiating force (wrongly, albeit mistakenly) upon another.
If yes, and I had the ability, I'd use only non-lethal force, as he is initiating force (wrongly, albeit mistakenly) upon another.
No, you don't know. That was just supposed to be an addendum to your response. If you didn't have the knowledge, an angry, vengeful man could have just killed an innocent man. I suspect you don't believe the NAP obliges you to help, but how would you feel if you found out later that an innocent man was killed and you didn't stop it?
In addition:
It does not go against the NAP to bring justice to those who've initiated force against others (innocent others).
That's all well and good, but also subjective. You believe that but others might not. Moral absolutism is a very sticky wicket.
I believe already answered that question up thread. If I didn't have that knowledge I'd do nothing to stop it (which is also why I said that it depends on circumstances).
I do not believe the NAP obliges me to help, particularly when the circumstances of the situation cannot be known.
If, as you say, my inaction allowed an innocent man to be killed, I would feel that it was unfortunate that I didn't have enough knowledge to make a decision, but I would feel no guilt, as I had no way of ascertaining the proper course of action.
If, as you say, my inaction allowed an innocent man to be killed, I would feel that it was unfortunate that I didn't have enough knowledge to make a decision, but I would feel no guilt, as I had no way of ascertaining the proper course of action.
And so you behaved in an amoral manner. You, rightly IMO, decided that you didn't have enough information to make a moral decision so you bowed out of acting. As I see it, this is what most people leave out. Everyone wants to label moral and immoral and then completely leave out amoral.
Fair enough.
But the definition of amoral is: Lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something
In this situation, it was not that I was unconcerned about the rightness or wrongness, it's that I didn't have the information to decide which drove the inaction.
I stand by my original statement. When assessing the morality of an action, you cannot expect to do better than the NAP.
I didn't have the information to decide which drove the inaction.
I would equate that with lacking moral sense in this situation.
When assessing the morality of an action, you cannot expect to do better than the NAP.
I don't necessarily agree, but that's just a difference between you and me.
Enlighten me. What's better?
Enlighten me. What's better?
I'm still working that out. Of all of the moral theories that I've studied so far I've found parts I agree with and parts I don't. I think the NAP is probably a decent starting point but it just feels like it's lacking something.
Fair enough.
Let me know if you find it. Always open to something better.
Would you intervene on behalf of one side of a civil war in order to influence the outcome?
No.
That's just it John.
You can't believe counter to the NAP and be considered moral.
Good thing you are not a fanatic or anything. Nothing dangerous about thinking you have a monopoly on morality.
John
How can you believe that preemptively attacking a potential threat is in any way moral? The very notion is absurd.
I'm not a fanatic. My philosophy stems from that single principle. Everything goes back to it.
You have no principles. You have a collection of stances on different issues. How you come down on those issues is completely disjointed and unrelated. There is no guiding, overarching principle. Which means, you can talk yourself into anything you want.
IOW...immoral.
That is incredibly simplistic. Allowing an attack to occur in order to give yourself moral justification is frankly pretty immoral. You are letting people die for your sense of self rightousness.
Didn't say you couldn't act in self defense. If you know an attack is coming, you prepare for it and defend against it. You meet the attacker and defeat him.
Yes, I am letting my own people die for my own self righteousness. (assuming my own people won't die anyway in a preemptive attack)
You see John, being moral, taking the moral high ground, being right, is more important than being safe. When I use safety as an argument for the initiation of force I can again talk myself into anything.
You know who else committed atrocities and used the safety of the fatherland to justify it?
So there are no True Neocons?
Bull. That is just pure bullshit. You know precisely who and what neoconservatives are. And you know precisely that libertarians beef with them is fundamental with respect to the power of the state and the principle of non-aggression and respect for liberty and human rights.
Huh? The neocons actually call themselves neocons... or at least they used to. It is hardly a pejorative outside lefty circles. Didn't you live through the 90's? Some of the biggest names in the conservative movement were neocons. GWB actually got to put some of their best ideas into action in Iraq - something they'd been advocating for ten or fifteen years. Also "compassionate conservatism", etc.
"2. They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so."
I'm against redrawing the map of the Middle East. Just bomb the ground and people back into the stone age.
What? They are already in the stone age? We can go home assured that we are safe from them unless they go to Ruddi Dekkers flying school. What? Dekkers is in prison on drug charges? We are totally safe.
""anyone who doesn't agree with the speaker about foreign policy"."
Well, unless the speaker is a neoconservative. There are (or at least were at some point) people who identify themselves that way. I even know a few.
"But I have friends who are black Jewish gay etc. neoconservatives!"
From Cato Unbound:
Neocons were basically hawkish, strongly anti-Communist liberals. Their tradition, such as it is, evolved into David Brooks-style "National Greatness" crap.
TL:DR
Neo-cons are the warfare-welfare state's tax collector, enforcer and evangelist.
Neocon is just a dumb meaningless phrase Matt. I take it back. You do not do it frequently. And I apologize for allowing Sparky to get the better of me for a moment.
But Sparky thinks calling someone a NEOCON is the height of rhetoric. It is like the greatest argument ever in Sparkyland. It can't be defeated.
But Sparky thinks calling someone a NEOCON is the height of rhetoric. It is like the greatest argument ever in Sparkyland. It can't be defeated.
I think the use of neocon is fine when used correctly. It's a perfectly valid word that describes a group of people. I don't know why you always become such a crybaby when somebody calls you out on your lunacy.
I think the use of neocon is fine when used correctly.
As in calling anyone who disagrees with you a lunatic. Like I said, in Sparkyland it is like incredible, can't be defeated.
As in calling anyone who disagrees with you a lunatic.
Wow, just ... wow. I suppose the irony is completely lost on you.
I don't think you are crazy sparky. I just think you are wrong and make poor arguments.
And I think when you don't agree with people you fly off the handle like someone just beat up your grandmother. It's like every disagreement with you is a personal attack on you. I think you are terrifyingly wrong, often. It scares me that your thoughts probably represent a fair percentage of the population.
Yeah Sparky because no one who ever disagrees with me ever flies off the handle. Whatever. The people on here are vicious to apostates on an issue. And so be it. I just give as good as I get and some people don't like that. Well too bad.
As in calling anyone who disagrees with you a lunatic.
So every time I use it and you call me an ass or an idiot, that's totally different.
Hey John, Toure called, he wants to licence your cognitive discord generator.
No, PS you are just wrong about something. And people including you call me worse. That is how it works around here. You are just pissed I don't sit back and take it.
No, PS you are just wrong about something. And people including you call me worse. That is how it works around here. You are just pissed I don't sit back and take it.
John you are such a hero. And I've not called you anything, you whiny cunt. I mean before I just called you a whiny cunt.
You are the one whining. I am just telling you to fuck off if you don't like the level of rhetoric around here. I am sorry your pansy ass can't take it and don't like people being mean to you or telling you your ideas are stupid.
Again you are just being a whinny little bitch because someone doesn't sing with the choir or tell you what a wonderful little snowflake you are. Go cry to your mother if you don't like it.
You are the one whining. I am just telling you to fuck off if you don't like the level of rhetoric around here. I am sorry your pansy ass can't take it and don't like people being mean to you or telling you your ideas are stupid.
Again you are just being a whinny little bitch because someone doesn't sing with the choir or tell you what a wonderful little snowflake you are. Go cry to your mother if you don't like it.
I'm fine with the level of rhetoric around here, although I prefer debating people who can do it in a clever manner.
Seriously, you are going to pull the special snowflake cliche out of your ass? Cry to my mother?
I thought I'd just keep on giving you rope. Go ahead and make an even bigger fool of yourself.
WAWA PS. What do you want a cookie? A shoulder to cry on. And if you like the level of rhetoric, what are you bitching about?
I didn't say I like your rhetoric, well, playground taunts aren't actually rhetoric, nor is saying that anyone who uses an agreed-upon, if not strictly defined term like neocon is a stupid poo-poo-head.
You just went from saying that anyone who uses the term neocon, like me, is a complete idiot, to complaining that people call you bad names to elementary playground insults, to ha ha, talking about me being frightened of your "rhetoric".
Really amazing.
You just went from saying that anyone who uses the term neocon, like me, is a complete idiot,
The way you use the term is idiotic. You may not be an idiot, but your use of the term is idiotic. I am not a NEOCON and would gladly admit if I were one. But I am not. You just accuse me of being one because you don't know what the word means beyond "You disagree with me". And yes, that is idiotic. And that is why I find the term so disdainful and stupid.
The way you use the term is idiotic. You may not be an idiot, but your use of the term is idiotic. I am not a NEOCON and would gladly admit if I were one. But I am not. You just accuse me of being one because you don't know what the word means beyond "You disagree with me". And yes, that is idiotic. And that is why I find the term so disdainful and stupid.
I never said you were a neocon, go look it up, dude. Yesterday, I said Goldberg could go suck his neocon dick on a link you posted. Today I said the same about Krauthaumer on another link. Both times you jumped all over it with your, uhm, rhetoric. But the fact that you find the term so offensive doesn't incline me to thing you AREN'T a neocon.
Golberg isn't a neocon either. He is a Jewish conservative. But he wouldn't agree with even half of the 13 point manifesto pointed on this thread. He doesn't believe in national greatness or big government.
Again, you just call him one because you don't like him. If you don't like Goldberg fine. But stop using this idiotic term to express as much.
Golberg isn't nearly as bad as Krauthammer of course. Do you agree that Krautammer is then?
Goldberg wrote, 'We probably shouldn't bomb Iran, but don't tell them that.'
So if someone wrote, 'We probably shouldn't invade legal mj dispensaries with SWAT teams but don't tell the potheads.' Would that mean they weren't a drug warrior?
Goldberg wrote, 'We probably shouldn't bomb Iran, but don't tell them that.'
So saying we shouldn't bomb Iran but instead should try bluff our way into getting them to give up nukes makes them a "neocon" That is all you have? But the term really means something?
Just stop it. Stop using the term. If you don't like Goldberg, fine. Don't like him. But don't like him for the right reasons. Stop using this idiotic term that has become nothing but shorthand for the "other".
How about I go collect a bunch of quotes to prove to you why I think it's justified to call that cocksucker a neocon? I'm sure you will totally see my point when I present some evidence. It's not like you've shown any inclination of ever arguing dishonestly.
And for the fucking 10th time, tell my why Krauthammer is not a neocon.
Goldberg 2006
Jonah Goldberg: Iraq Was a Worthy Mistake
http://www.latimes.com/news/la.....432.column
"Finishing the job is better than leaving a mess. And if we can finish the job, the war won't be remembered as a mistake."
Geez we messed up, but let's stay for however long it takes for more of this awesome nation-building.
Sounds like neocon BS to me.
PS,
Again, anyone who supported the Iraq War is a NEOCON. That is exactly what I am talking about. We go from the points above about Trotsykism and national greatness and the welfare state and so forth, down to "if you think Iraq was anything but horrible."
The whole thing is noting but a proxy fight for people who can't get over the Iraq war. It is idiotic.
So, Dodd, Clinton, Daschle, Schumer, Kerry all are NEOCON? Bet that would shock the shit outa them.
Here's Senate roll call:
http://www.senate.gov/legislat.....vote=00237
Not to mention the "worthy" part, Jesus H Christ. In other news, cops say shooting dog in wrong door raid dog was worthy mistake.
Really amazing.
PS, I believe it was sloopy that defined John's rules and posted them previously. They are as follows:
Rule 1 - John is always right.
Rule 2 - If you think John might be wrong, see Rule 1.
John doesn't seem disagreement, he sees attack. You cannot possibly disagree with him without being wrong.
seem see
Rule 1 - John is always right.
Rule 2 - If you think John might be wrong, see Rule 1.
I think that's an oversimplification actually. John feels persecuted because he is in the minority on this stuff, and he starts getting super-defensive. What I dislike is the intellectual dishonesty, to start with an ad hom, then complain about ad hom against his person, then call someone a pussy, then, well you know the drill.
Where have I ever complained about anything? All I have done is point out that Jonah Goldberg is not a NEOCON and that that term has been bastardized to mean pretty much anyone who disagrees with you.
You can hurt NEOCON all you like. But I am going to call you an idiot for doing so. That is not ad hom attack. That is just an observation.
You are just pissed off because you throw around this term and someone pointed out to you that it doesn't mean what you think it does and doesn't describe the people you hurl it at.
Where have I ever complained about anything? All I have done is point out that Jonah Goldberg is not a NEOCON and that that term has been bastardized to mean pretty much anyone who disagrees with you.
How about where you just complained (lied) above that I called you a neocon? And what about the fact that you went ballistic when I called Krauthammer a neocon? Just going to pretend that never happened?
Where did I ever go ballistic about anything anyone called Krauthammer? Maybe you got that impression, but I couldn't care less what you call him. Seriously.
As far as me, okay fine. You didn't call me a "neocon". My mistake. I assumed you were saying as much. But if you don't think that, you don't think it. I think it is a word that needs to die for the sake of better discussions.
PS| 2.7.13 @ 9:13AM |#
Another neocon [Krauthammer] who can go suck his own dick. Oh noes, I'm making myself look like an ass again because only John knows the real definition of neocon, and he's not telling.
John| 2.7.13 @ 9:18AM |#
I know what it means, it means the person using the term is a moron who has nothing interesting to say.
--
I guess that was just that intelligent rhetoric that I find so intimidating.
Deep breath, John.
You are not a neo-con. You are too libertarian for that. I agree that neo-con is often used as you describe. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't also have real meaning in some contexts.
Except that it was Irving Kristol, the godfather of the movement as laid out by Paul above who coined the term neo-conservative to describe those beliefs. And people like his son and Krauthammer are the legacy of that movement. I'm not saying that every neo-conservative espouses everyone of those beliefs (just like no two libertarians are ideologically exact) but if you read the Kristols and also some of the stuff they put out under the PNAC they spell out most of what is listed above which is probably where Paul got it from. It's not like Tea Bagger.
But that group of people are very small JB. Yet the term gets thrown around to describe any number of people.
John--no baiting, but genuinely curious: would you personally consider Buckley to be a neocon?
No. He was never a liberal. If Buckley is a neo con, then everyone who isn't a Paleo is a neo and that seems like a pretty meaningless definition.
John is right. Also, we need to stop calling anyone who wasn't in the Partito Nazionale Fascista a fascist.
we need to stop calling anyone who wasn't in the Partito Nazionale Fascista a fascist.
Well, we certainly shouldn't call them Fascists.
On topic, Robc posted 17 characteristics of neoconservatives upthread and some will tag you as such if you conditionally agree with about 3 (3, 10, and 13 being the usual by my estimation) of them, which is a bar that is probably too low. If you were to conduct the same exercise with libertarianism (or fascism) and take the same results you'll likely find a lot of decidedly un-libertarian (or un-fascist) people lumped in with you.
It's actually a pretty fun exercise in ideological overlap, but the end result is we're just left arguing semantics as usual.
WARTY,
Where is this NEOCON Party? And how come they never call or invite me to the meetings. Hell, you would think they would at least send me their newsletter or something.
John is partially right. Neoconservativism is real and has meaning, but you wouldn't know if from the people who most often use that word here. Here it's just more of the flailing that comes when peaceniks can't defend a point. See also 'warboner', 'brown babies/people', etc
Peacenik: Anyone who dares to question anything that the military has ever done, is doing, or will do in the future.
But that group of people are very small JB
True, but they arent nonexistent. And they have power in far excess of their numbers.
I see no evidence of that Rob.
I see no evidence of that Rob.
Based on your argument that they are tiny in number, then even 1 getting into an administrative position would be power in excess of their numbers, and Bush had multiple neocons in his administration.
See, goalposts shifted from none (zero) to "a very small number" (an unspecified number greater than zero). This gives him a lot of wiggle room to keep you all bogged down defining that slippery "very small number."
Good luck trying to get ahold of that eel, it's uncommon slippery.
The goal posts haven't moved at all. The whole point is that NEOCON did once mean something. And it meant a small group of people. And now it means pretty much anyone who doesn't tow the Party Lion on foreign policy. That is why it is a meaningless term hurled by stupid people who have nothing better to say.
lololololol
Tonio| 2.7.13 @ 12:16PM |#
lololololol
Thank you for admitting you have no argument. Rarely do people admit so easily when they get caught with their asses showing. Very sporting of you.
Way to Tulpafy there, Red Tony.
The whole point is that NEOCON did once mean something.
It still means the same thing.
Like "fascist", the fact that it has been flung around and abused doesnt prevent it from being used properly too.
This. And John is just dishonest. Like the Krystols and Krauthammer and Buckley and bunch of other pieces of shit.
John, Dana Milbank is a neoconservative. He is a neoconservative because he supports pre-emptive war against a poorly-defined enemy, seemingly without geographical limitation or restraint. This is the generally-accepted defining characteristic of neoconservatives. The fact that Milbank also resorts to ad hominems against anyone who disagrees with him, hence the "as modern isolationists call themselves, non-interventionists" ad hom, is not necessarily a defining characteristic of neocons, but it is fairly typical.
But Milbank is also a died in the wool Democrat and big government liberal. So that kind of takes the conservative out of it doesn't it?
And like anti war and anti interventionists ever resorted to ad hom attacks. It is not like they didn't spend the 00s calling everyone who disagreed with them war mongers and chicken hawks or anything. Come on Brandon.
So that kind of takes the conservative out of it doesn't it?
Nope.
Neocons are neither new nor conservative. Discuss.
They are fucking Trotskyites, of course they can be Democrats.
and many of the original neocons like Norman Podhoretz and Irving Kristol WERE Democrats who fell away from the party due to what they felt was insufficient committment to anti-Communism. That's why they were "neo" rather than just conservatives - their affinity with conservatives was limited to aggresive anti-Communism.
"Daniel Bell captured the syncretic nature of neoconservatism when he described himself as a "socialist in economics, a liberal in politics, and a conservative in culture.""
I don't see how being a big government liberal is inconsistent with being a neoconservative. It seems to be part and parcel of it, actually.
Stupid, I know, but that's neocons for you.
But someone like Kristol, who calls himself one is not a economic socialist. By that definition Tresspassers, Obama is a neocon. Hell he is very conservative socially, the occasional bone the gays aside. Shit, Jeremiah Wright is the ultimate neocon.
Given the fact that Obama took Bush's policies and dialed them up to 11, yes, I think one can make a powerful case that Obama is a neocon.
Of course, that would assume that Obama is in control of the actions of the government. I believe he just allows the civil service to rampage without let or hindrance, so we get neo-connish policies because what the civil servants want to do happens to align with neocon prescriptions. Obama could be a closet Trotskyite and it would make no difference because he has a shaky hand on the tiller.
Tarran,
If the term is so broad it can be applied to both Obama and William F. Buckley, hasn't it become essentially meaningless?
I dont think Buckley qualifies.
Rob,
Since he supported the Iraq war, he would for most of the people on here.
John,
Fuck you standard.
Im not "most of the people on here".
Lots of non-neocons supported the Iraq War. As I even said, the number of actual neocons is very small. They have gotten lots of people to go along with them.
The funny thing is, and I pointed this out at the time, there are very few, if any, elected neocons. They like appointed positions and lobbying and influencing positions, not actual elected positions.
Fuck you standard.
I have no idea what that sentence was actually supposed to say.
I know you are not most people on here. And yes you do actually understand the term. I have just had it with being called something that I am very clearly not. It is no different and no better than liberals who call Libertarians fascist. It is a trick that has long since passed its sell by date.
But it's not that broad:
You are comparing Obama's track record, not his rhetoric, with Buckley's advocacy.
I argue that Obama's track record reveals little about his political ideology because he is utterly ineffectual and rarely reigns in his underlings.
Moreover, I don't agree that Buckley is a neo-con. One could argue that his advocacy that the U.S. go totalitarian to hinder the spread of communism has the unprincipled vibe that is infused throughout neocon policy prescriptions, but that's as close as he comes to that awful philosophy.
I don't recall Buckley advocating military adventurism as a way of diverting America from a slide to nihilism which is a mainstay of neocon philosophy.
I don't recall Buckley advocating military adventurism as a way of diverting America from a slide to nihilism which is a mainstay of neocon philosophy.
I don't recall ever doing that either. Yet, I am called a "neocon" in nearly every single thread about the subject.
John, do you believe the US should invade or attack Iran, given the circumstances at this moment?
Where else have we heard "there is no [insert name here] political movement; anyone who thinks there is is paranoid"?
If you guys want to have your time wasted go for it. But please do consider that John might be deliberately trying to impede discussion.
Yeah Tonio. I am part of the secret NEOCON plot and am just on here to impede the discussion and keep our dirty little secret from getting out. It couldn't be that I am calling bullshit on a bullshit term.
Jesus H. Christ, since when did you get dumber than Sparky?
It isnt a bullshit term. You admitted up thread that they exist.
If even one neocon exists, the term isnt bullshit.
Rob,
It is bullshit as used. And that is the whole point. If you want to call Kristol a NEOCON, have fun. But if you want to hurl it as a slur at anyone you disagree with on foreign policy, then you are using the term as a bullshit slur and nothing else.
As the person who regularly called people out for calling Ashcroft a neocon*, when he very clearly wasnt, I am well aware of bullshit uses.
But when it is used correctly, it is being used correctly. I see no evidence that Welch misused the term.
*this was common on fark during his tenure as AG. Ashcroft was a socon, not a neocon, any confusing them is a sign of idiocy.
Jesus H. Christ, since when did you get dumber than Sparky?
Ahhh, it warms my heart to know that you think so highly of me.
John, you as an "army of one" have demonstrated yourself capable of keeping the commentariat chasing their own tails. No conspiracies necessary.
Sorry I'm not playing by your rules.
kthxbai.
Sorry I'm not playing by your rules.
I have never had a rule against you saying idiotic things Tonio.
Will Rand Paul's tax plan allow me to purchase a car that's as big as a whale?
Well he's got him a Chrysler that seats about 20.
Come on! And bring your jukebox money.
We should just post a sign at the border that reads, "Stay away, fools, cuz love rules."
Wait, they have the 2000SUX available now?
I'd buy that for a dollar!
The Free Beacon article was delicious, but I hope the hypocrisy is obvious to the readers. "Nobody is advocating war with Iran, haw haw haw. Crazy, paranoid isolationists. Now, why isn't Rand advocating war with Iran?"
And Larison is playing stupid by pointing out that a five page speech on foreign policy does not spend several paragraphs focusing on divisions within Islam. Well, not every foreign policy speech is going to talk about what *you* want to talk about. Sorry. Ignoring those differences to focus on other topics is only "puzzling" if you're a nitwit.
I read that as "Free Bacon". Damn it! Now.....CAN THINK OF NOTHING BUT BACON!!!
Free Pork Bellies!
Free bacon would be a lot more useful than the Free Beacon.
In a world of free bacon there would be no war.
All the Islamists are angry - because they hate our freedom to eat bacon.
Larison is not playing.
You can't please the serious people because those assholes are fundamentally unserious. They have their dogma and no one is going to make them question it.
I think better of Rand's speech knowing Jennifer Rubin calls it "naive" and "silly."
Because the sophisticated and serious options she supports have worked out so well.
What was naive about it? He says this
Radical Islam is no fleeting fad but a relentless force. Though at times stateless, radical Islam is also supported by radicalized nations such as Iran. Though often militarily weak, radical Islam makes up for its lack of conventional armies with unlimited zeal.
How many people are actually willing to say that truth? Not many I can see. Mostly it is all "religion of peace" bullshit like jihadists are some kind of alien invasion.
People are projecting their hates onto this speech. While we may have liked it (I did!), that's not so good.
maybe that's why the folks who panned Rand's speech panned it. Doesn't fit their narrative of Islam as this benign little club that is just misunderstood by us infidels.
You realize the people who panned it are the ones who think he's not aggressive enough, right?
The peaceniks panned it too.
Oh, come on, John. If neocon is no good, then peacenik has to be right out.
He's aiming for the center, which means he's getting hit by both extremes.
They panned it because they fear him. Nobody wants a libertarian in power - not on the left, not on the right, not among the moderates. Way too many oxen are gored by that possibility.
"narrative of Islam as this benign little club that is just misunderstood by us infidels"
I'm sorry, but I have never heard anyone say anything like that.
That's why we call it a straw man, Zeb.
This is not unlike a typical President Obama straw-man speech. But of course, in the real world, no serious politician or foreign policy analyst favors war for frivolous reasons.
Here's what Rand said, "The debate over war is the most important debate that occurs in our country and should not be glossed over."
So she jumps from that to, "Rand called our wars frivolous!"
And now some good news... that so much attention is paid to Rand makes me think he's a frontrunner in '16.
"Not Rand Paul. (No my joke either, sadly)"
Is that Fred Schneider?
He looks like someone who'd roam if he wanted to. Roam around the world.
As long as he's not gamboling.
"... failed to address the actual debates among foreign policy experts."
Nice Top Men reference. The "experts" have been doing an awesome job lately, why listen to the crazy libertarian guy? His speech only makes sense on the service.
Top. Men.
Interview on CNN's Situation Room yesterday. Seems too reasonable for a politician.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbsV-txA4Gc
Wolf seems strangely reasonable too; he called Paul's speech well thought out.
"outside the bipartisan political and policy consensus."
Um, yes, I think that's kind of the point. The foreign-policy (and domestic policy) consensus has done so well, how dare anyone challenge it!
I wonder if Mr. Milbank can name a military intervention he supported...
Oooh, a cheap shot. Is Mr. Milbank someone who would say the same thing about anti-war demonstrators and activists, that they are modern pacifists who call themselves "anti-war"?
Would he ever ask that question of Obama?
Only if he's RACIST, straight up.
Motherfuck him AND John Wayne!
Anyone who doesnt understand the difference between isolationists and non-interventionists is a moron.
They cant handle two variables at the same time.
That'd be most of my "friends" any more, unfortunately. Actually, most people don't seem to see anything but two shades - a third choice is UNpossible. Four? Madness!
"You're not a Dem - then you MUST be a Rep!" "You're not a Rep? But...then...you MUST be a Dem!" "I am neither..." *heads assplode*
Everything's binary to them. Team Red/Team Blue, Us/Them, Patriots/Terrrrrrrrssstss, Pro Choice/RIGHT WING WHACK JOBS, Pro Life/BABYKILLERSS!!1, liberal/conservative, Socialized Medicine/SOMAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLIA!!!
I truly do not understand why people cannot see a continuum of - like - EVERYTHING, but most don't. It's an on/off switch.
Maybe computers have taken over already...?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sick to death of getting reasonably priced electronic goods and nice cars from other nations. If that makes me a crazy isolationist, then so be it.
Can't you just drive your Vega and watch your Curtis Mathis TV like a real American?
Ahhhhh the hell with you, John - my 1980 Curtis Mathes 19" color set still works as beautifully as the day my parents bought it!
They made a great TV, if you could afford it.
And I don't think we could, so I'll be damned if I know how we ended up buying one. Must've fell off a truck.
Yet...
Yeah. Who said anything about attacking anybody? Yet, why not?
Neocons are stupid. There! I said it!
Uh, sorry pmains... You already posted something similar up there...
But I still like mine better! Nya nya!
There are no neocons, OM, you're just paranoid. OK, maybe a very small number, but you're still paranoid. Nobody I know is a neocon, and...paranoia. /John
The worst part of the internet is how well instructed it allows partisans to be.
The best part is that is gives us magnificent nuttery like this.
I wonder (hope) if the second one is the Iowahawk guy trolling them.
One NATO to rule them all
One NATO to find them...
It will be nothing but NK and Laotian agrarian utopias!
Speaking of food & agriculture - how;s things going in Argentina? They feeling the effects of central food planning yet?
I dunno, but I hope Sunday nights are still awesome.
Or
Damn, US TV really sucks.
The only problem I have with South American TV is that there are too many fake boobages. Small realies are OK, girls.
They are really into all kinds of plastic surgery down there.
Well, I can tell you this. Chile's socialist utopian paradise under Allende (whose idealistic, youthful followers helped him come to power by throwing acid into the faces of the rich and destroying BMWs) would have worked had there not be "blatant" "rightwing plotting" against his regime. After all, they invented the internet before Al Gore did.
Well, I suppose if there was only one military, it would make wars a lot simpler.
Who has suggested we invade Iran? Or Syria? Or anywhere else?"
really? Did this woman really ask this question?
In fairness, I don't think anyone is suggesting we invade Iran, just bomb their nuclear program.
Why do we need to do it?
Israel can handle that task just fine.
I hope so.
Israel is the one in danger if they dont.
And based on recent actions, seems like they are doing a good job.
NEW RULE: if you use robots, it doesn't count as invasion.
Hand jobs ain't cheating.
I loved Rand Paul's speech. It departs his father's dogma. With Ron Paul out, noninterventionists have no 'political sun' in Congress.
Ooh. Evidence that his rhetoric fools the interventionists. If Cyto's fooled, there's hope for Rand yet.
If Rand Paul is pissing off the war mongers and the peace creeps at the same time he is taking the right tack.
^This.
Hold it. I am a war monger. You and Joe From Lowell and MNG and the rest of your fellow travelers have told me so. Yet, he didn't piss me off. He sounded pretty reasonable.
Apparently the peaceniks around here found it reasonable too. I guess the only conclusion to be made is that the speech was a monumental failure.
Personally, I liked the speech, because it acknowledges that there are in fact a lot of dangerous people out there who would do us harm if they had the opportunity while also noting that, in most cases, there really isn't a helluva lot of effective things we can or even should do about it. "DO SOMETHING!!1!" is just as stupid a mantra in foreign policy as it is with gun control. If Egypt wants to become a repressive theocratic shithole, let em. Not my problem until Egypt starts attacking us.
And that's why Iran is thornier than most of these situations. Unlike Egypt or Syria, Iran actually does send its own agents out into the rest of the world to do bad things. Enough to merit engaging in a full-scale armed conflict? Hell no, but they are in fact dangerous and hostile to us. Don't ask me what I think should be done about it because I don't know. I know I don't want another goddamned war, and I know that Iran's a bad apple. Beyond that, you got me.
In essence, I think Rand is saying you have to deal with these things situationally.
A blanket statement that "Iran will not be allowed to have nuclear weapons" is almost a guarantee of war down the road. Of course, such a statement might be more for domestic political purposes than an actual statement of intent.
Paul's speech failed to address the actual debates among foreign policy experts
Oh, noes! Maybe it's that the self-styled experts' prescriptions have failed miserably.
I respect the thoughtful tone and the enthusiastic research that went into the senator's speech
Bullshit.
One senior official at a prominent D.C. Jewish organization called it "frankly bizarre" and "outside the bipartisan political and policy consensus."
To cowardly to identify him/herself, so opinion may be safely ignored. Also, obviously afraid of status quo being upset. And remember, there is no Israel lobby.
So Jewish Organization = Israel Lobby?
You realized you just accused every Jewish American of being a fifth columnist for Israel? You understand that is pretty much one step above the blood libel on the scale.
Take that straw man! And that! Oh yeah? Take that!
prominent D.C. Jewish organization
And remember, there is no Israel lobby.
Why does Tonio assume that because it is a "prominent Jewish Organization" it is automatically part of this malevolent Israel lobby that everyone denies exists?
You've got the straw man on the ropes! Give it to him! Work the gut!
Do you have anything interesting to say? Really? You are getting to be like Shreek. You don't even try sometimes.
Just calling out your fallacies as I see 'em, Red Tony.
But you can't explain why they are fallacies. But you are sure they are so you tell me all about it.
Why is that a fallacy? I am no the one that assumed a Jewish organization was automatically part of the Israel lobby, Tonio was.
You are making an inference and from that inference an accusation of an assumption.
That is the straw man, Red Tony.
Sad that you can't see it.
What else was he saying? He quoted someone from a Jewish organization as evidence that the Israel lobby exists. Why is that evidence? It is only evidence if you assume that every Jewish organization is automatically part of the Israel lobby. And that is calling every Jewish organization a fifth column.
Heavy use of the word "every" is a sure sign that there is a straw man in there somewhere, Red Tony.
The existence of the "Jewish Organization" is only evidence of the existence of the Israeli lobby if you assume every Jewish organization is part of said lobby. Otherwise, his statement makes no sense.
Sorry, you can scream Red Tony all you want. But that doesn't change the fact that you don't have an argument.
The Pauls have frequently been accused of anti-Semitism for not supporting Israel strongly enough. Those accusations depend on the assumption that anti-Israel == anti-Jewish. Similarly, his opposition to neo-conservativism is also viewed as anti-Semitic because we have also been assured that "neo-conservative" is a dog-whistle code slur meaning "Jewish." Rand understands this narrative is floating around, and it certainly had something to do with his recent Israel trip.
Now, tell me, what do you think is implied by soliciting negative responses to Rand's speech primarily from prominent Jewish and neo-conservative intellectuals? Could it be that the unspoken narrative here is that a constrained foreign policy is inherently racist and therefore illegitimate?
Yes, yes. The peaceniks hate Rand, too. But they're not (by and large) trying to insinuate the Paul is an anti-Semite. They're probably calling him a war-monger or somesuch.
John isn't Red Tony. John is Red Shrike. Both are ostensibly libertarian in enough areas to count as libertarians, but their partisan preferences and general contrarianism ends up with them defending statists and getting caught in their own contradictions.
What contradictions have I been caught in? The biggest thing that gets people pissed at me is the drone strike issue. And there I am defending Obama.
If I am such a partisan, I have a funny way of showing it. The charge that I am a mindless Republican partisan is even more puzzling and in many ways even more insulting that calling me a NEOCON. NEOCON is just a stupid word the users usually have no idea of its meaning. But partisan definitely means something. And it means I don't believe anything and am a liar.
And that is just not true. If it were true, I would be joining in the beat down of Obama over drone strikes or would have magically found the Iraq war to be a fierce moral injustice in 2009. Yet, I did none of that. I have always defended Obama when I felt he was right. And I can name you any number of times where I have viciously attacked Republicans.
So I really don't know why you think that, other than you just don't agree with me and have to assume the worst to make yourself feel better.
Because you constantly get bent out of shape whenever Reason and HnRers criticize Republicans rightly for doing non-libertarian things and when they don't criticize Democrats tu quoque.
The fact that you join most Republicans in supporting Obama's illegal murder of American citizens not on a battlefield isn't really proof of not being a partisan hack. You are certainly more informed and more libertarian-friendly than most Republican apologists, which I gave you credit for, but that doesn't mean you don't constantly fall into advertently or inadvertently defending GOP statism by criticizing and attacking those who criticize it and won't compromise their principles to prop it up as the purportedly lesser of two evils.
Because you constantly get bent out of shape whenever Reason and HnRers criticize Republicans rightly for doing non-libertarian things and when they don't criticize Democrats tu quoque.
Yes, it pisses me off when the give the Dems free passes or hold one side to a different standard than the other. You are correct in that. But I don't think it means what you think it means.
The fact that you join most Republicans in supporting Obama's illegal murder of American citizens not on a battlefield isn't really proof of not being a partisan hack.
Yes because I take my orders from the Republicans. It is not that I don't have a single coherent view of these things that I apply no matter who is in office. Nope, it couldn't be that. And if you would bother to read what I actually write, I don't totally agree with the Republicans either. Most Republicans would say the Al Alwaki kill was legal. I would not. But the fact that I have said that about a hundred times doesn't seem to matter. Much easier to just paint me as the "other"!!!
but that doesn't mean you don't constantly fall into advertently or inadvertently defending GOP statism by criticizing and attacking those who criticize it and won't compromise their principles to prop it up as the purportedly lesser of two evils.
Which is just a long way of saying that I disagree with you about some things. So what? You disagree with me. But that doesn't mean you are a hack or that you don't have any integrity.
But I guess when you defend the things you believe in, you are defending your principles. When anyone else does, they are being partisan hacks. That about sums it up.
All you've got to do is move the goalposts and Tonio will be Tulpafied!
C'mon! You can do it!
Eh, to be fair here, there definitely is a bit of an uncomfortable feel to *some* of the criticism of US-Israeli relations. Tonio isn't in that territory, but Red Tony loves to watch straw burn.
But some people, if you ask them to do the word association game with "neocon", well the first thing that pops into their head is "Jew!". Which is unfortunate because there are a ton of criticisms we could make about American foreign policy in general and our relations with Israel in particular that get lost because there are people who do in fact assert very loudly that America's foreign policy is phoned in from Tel Aviv every Friday before sunset, and they make a lovely albatross to hang around the neck of everyone who questions the status quo.
Tonio isn't in that territory,
Why isn't he? What was he saying other than "Jewish Organization" is proof of there being an Israel lobby? That is the territory.
Why is that so hard to admit?
I think it's a commentary on the fact that there is an Israel Lobby, just like there is a Gun Lobby and a Farm Lobby and a Union Lobby but for some reason we're not supposed to bring up the existence of the Israel Lobby because if we do then we're a bunch of crypto-Nazis.
That is exactly what he was doing. But he was doing it by pointing to a Jewish Organization as evidence. The cometary only makes sense if you assume that the organization listed is pro Israel because it is Jewish. If the story had quoted an Israeli organization, that would be different. But what Tonio did was equate Jewish with Israeli and that is calling Jews fifth columnists.
It's not though, really. Because American Jews do care deeply about Israel's security, and they do see a close alliance with the United States as vital to the preservation of that security. It's not a fifth column because fifth column refers to secret operatives infiltrating to undermine an organization under false pretenses.
Openly held and stated beliefs cannot by definition be a fifth column. Words have meanings, no matter how much you might wish that were otherwise.
Pretty much every mainstream Jewish organization in the United States is pro-Israeli. It's not an unfair statement to link the two.
Pretty much every mainstream Jewish organization in the United States is pro-Israeli.
They may be "pro Israel". But they are certainly not all pro Israeli policy. Many of them damn near take the side of the Palestinians. And so what if they are pro Israel? Mexicans are pro Mexico. Yet, woe to the person who ever says that Mexican voters might not vote with the best interests of the US at heart. They would immediately be called racist. The problem is like most other things that relate to Jews and Israel, not the standard but that it is a standard that only seems to ever be applied to Jews.
Once again, words have meanings. You don't get to redefine "pro-Israel" to mean what you think it means.
Mexicans? Have you seen the conservative outrage over Mexican flags being waved at immigration rallies? The whole opposition to amnesty is that the Mexican born new citizens will immediately vote for super left wing Democrats.
The problem is that anyone who dares question the notion that what's good for Israel is always good for the US as well gets called a crypto-Nazi, or gets accused of having some kind of double standard. That's bullshit. The standard is this: American foreign policy should be crafted to serve the interests of the American people. If there is a conflict between the interests of the US and an ally, then the interests of the United States come first.
Have you seen the conservative outrage over Mexican flags being waved at immigration rallies?
Sure I have. And Reason and many others think nothing of calling them racist for pointing that out. That is just my point. They are racist for pointing that out but no one dare call anyone Anti-Semitic for raving about the Jewish Lobby.
And "Pro Israel" does have a meaning. And like all things that meaning changes with context. "Pro Israel" in the context of tonio's post means supporting a hawkish US policy in the middle east for the sake of Israel. That is the accusation is. But supporting Israel doesn't have to mean that. And millions of Jews support Israel without supporting a hawkish US policy. The slander lies in assuming all Jews or a large group of Jews somehow manipulate US policy to make it more hawkish for Israel's benefit.
The standard is this: American foreign policy should be crafted to serve the interests of the American people. If there is a conflict between the interests of the US and an ally, then the interests of the United States come first.
That is the standard right up until it is not. That isn't the standard with regard to immigration. Try making the argument that immigration or specifically unrestricted immigration from Mexico is bad for US interests. The argument is that that doesn't matter because the human welfare and rights of people to cross borders is absolute.
Bull fucking shit. The very first response to any criticism of American policy vis a vis Israel is to slander the critic as a crypto-Nazi.
What color is the sky in your world?
Bull fucking shit. The very first response to any criticism of American policy vis a vis Israel is to slander the critic as a crypto-Nazi.
And the first response to that criticism is to accuse the maker of being a slave to Jewish lobby. You miss the point. If it is okay to point out Jews being pro Israel is it not then okay to point out Mexican flags at immigration rallies? Are you ready to concede that people who do are not racists? And would you agree that the people who call such people racist are wrong?
If it were the case that only REALPOLITIK foreign policy were acceptable, that would be fine. But that is not the case. People make arguments that the US should act against its interests for the sake of principle or the welfare of other national all of the time. Yet, only in the case of Israel does making that argument become somehow malevolent.
Again, it is not the standard so much as the fact that the standards seem to be different for Israel and the Jews than any other group.
Absolutely there's an Israel Lobby, and it's been very successful with both parties.
Our entire Middle East policy hinges around protecting Israel, even the only direct American interest in the region is oil, of which Israel has none.
The original neocons are an interesting bunch. Many of the "founding" neocon intellectuals were, in fact, Jewish. However, their political philosophy was not primarily about Israel, but more about applying traditional liberal idealism and positivity towards big government in support of "conservative" policies. An expansive and quasi-imperialist foreign policy is merely one aspect of that larger approach.
Who said malevolent?
And I don't think I have ever heard anyone deny that an Israel lobby exists. It's not like it is a secret or anything.
I thought the same thing when I read it. I mean, if you take Israel out of the equation, what sense does it make to refer to the think tank (or whatever it is) as a "Jewish" organization? The author of the article is the one, IMO, implying an unseemly equivalence between Jewish Organizations and Israel Lobby.
I think the problem with the word "neoconservative" is that for many people, the word primarily means "supporting a hawkish, nationalistic foreign policy." That's an oversimplification of what they actually believe, since the governmental, social and economic statism of neoconservatism has mostly taken a backseat to foreign policy since 9/11.
I'm not usually one to defend John, but calling him a "neoconservative" because he agrees with them in one area is little different than calling Alan Grayson a libertarian because he agrees with us in a few areas like foreign policy and auditing the Fed.
Bottom line is that it has become primarily a pejorative, which it was not prior to 9/11.
It almost doesn't matter what the term meant before. More distressing is that principles originally espoused by the neoconservative clique are now seen as unassailable GOP doctrine. The potshots from Jennifer Rubin are a prime example. Does she even understand the philosophical history of her own party?
Okay, I couldn't help but get into it over there at the comment section of the Milbank article. I'm sure I didn't convince any adherents of the One True Party, but what the fuck.
Liberals sure do love to call their opponents "nuts" or "crazy," don't they?
Liberals truly believe that personal attacks win arguments. You see, for them the content of an idea is less important than the source. Thus the very same idea could be judged as good or bad, depending on who came up with it.
Yes. It is a remnant of the old Marxist idea of false political conscience. If you have a false political conscience, you are wrong, QED.
False consciousness. And, no, that's not quite what that means. False consciousness occurs when a Prole is tricked into adopting the logic of a Bourgeois. The classic example is loyalty to the czar based on imagining that the czar would never approve of the behavior of his agents.
A Bourgeois thinking Bourgeois thoughts is an enemy of the Proletariat, but he does not have false consciousness. Rather, his consciousness is exactly what you can expect from a dirty capitalist pig like him, which is why we need to hang all of the capitalists and start our new society where there will only be clean, pure Proletariat thoughts.
So, you're right on the larger point that Marxists hate ideas because of who they come from.
Yep, that's their tried-and-true first response to virtually anything. Oh, and that they're smart. That's why they attach the word "smart" to all sorts of silly policies - "smart power", "smart diplomacy", "smart growth", etc.
God I fucking loathe leftists. Conservatives annoy me, leftists enrage me.
Rand is a good guy. He's not exactly his father, but he's Libertarian enough and that is what counts.
I am still not happy that he endorsed Romney, but it's so much water under the bridge. He's doing what he should be doing now, and that is what matters.
Rand will never be POTUS and neither will any GOP candidate again, ever. Promising more free stuff is the only ticket left to the White House. GOP can't use that formula because most of their voting base will not accept it.
Rands future is right where he is at, in the Senate, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Libertarians strategy needs to be focusing on getting more Libertarian leaning candidates in office at all levels, from local to the US Senate.
Congress will stay a mixed Red/Blue team bag for the forseeable future. This means that team Blue is going to try to grab as much executive power as possible. That's why it's so important to get more Rand Pauls in congress, to stop them from creating a dictator.
Rand will never be POTUS and neither will any GOP candidate again, ever. Promising more free stuff is the only ticket left to the White House. GOP can't use that formula because most of their voting base will not accept it.
I really don't think that is true. And I think it misreads Obama voters. I know a lot of Obama voters. And none of them want free shit. They all have jobs. They voted for Obama because they like him and felt good voting for a black guy and didn't think Romney cared about them. It is not all about free shit. And Obama is a real no shit cult of personality that will be hard to recreate.
And Obama is a real no shit cult of personality that will be hard to recreate.
Meh, must not take much, John. I find the guy repugnant, boring, arrogant, and so thin skinned that it makes him almost appear childish.
I still think you are wrong, and that it's free stuff pandering that most Obama voters went for. The next biggest bloc was women voters who are convinced that Republicans want to send them back to the 1600s. It's ridiculous, but there it is. There are other blocs, but they are all too small to matter. Out of all of them, Hispanics are probably the most important.
Rubio might be able to help with that, not sure, he's Cuban and I don't think the Mexicans like him. Still, the GOPs immigration BS is hurting them a lot.