Mass Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School Leaves Dozens Dead

News outlets currently report between 20 and 27 have been killed by a shooter at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut.

We will update our Reason 24/7 feed regularly with the latest info.

UPDATE: If you're not around a television, Reuters is running a live local NBC news feed from the scene here.

UPDATE: The suspected shooter has been identied as Ryan Lanza, 24. His body is among the dead.

UPDATE: Several media outlets have pointed to a Facebook page of a Ryan Lanza as the suspect and a picture of him has circulated, but he has Tweeted that they've got the wrong guy.

UPDATE: Info from an official law enforcement press conference: 20 children dead. Six adults dead. The shooter is also dead. There is another person found dead at a second crime scene. Law enforcement are not formally identifying any victims yet.

UPDATE: Whether the shooter is actually Ryan Lanza is actually not confirmed as yet. Reports are now that the shooter is actually his younger brother, Adam.

UPDATE: The AP is reporting that the suspected shooter is indeed Adam. The confusion is apparently due to a law enforcement source accidentally mixing up the names while talking to the press.

Comments

[Not an Economist]

Well that sucks. 🙁

My condolences to the victims.

[nobody]

I grew up in Sandy Hook, my family still lives there. This is fucking awful.

[You gotta be kidding me]

Anybody feel like defending guns today? Or your "right to bear arms"?
Re-evaluate, Amerika.
How many more innocent people have to be fatally shot before you realize that your gun fetish is a bigger threat to your safety than furriners, terrrrrists, King George III or the gubmint?

[sloopyinca]

Anybody feel like defending guns today? Or your "right to bear arms"?

I do, you opportunistic fuck.

How many more innocent people have to be fatally shot before you realize that your gun fetish is a bigger threat to your safety than furriners, terrrrrists, King George III or the gubmint?

Forks make people fat.

[sticks]

I'll defend gun rights.

Self defense is a natural right.

[T o n y]

Whereas going to kindergarten without getting shot is negotiable.

[tarran]

No tonykins, going to kindergarten without getting shot is also a right, or stabbed with scissors, or run over with a car.

I presume you are opposed to scissors and cars?

[T o n y]

Ohh cuz scissors and cars can be deadly weapons too. How precious.

[tarran]

What percentage of five year olds fatalities are due to cars Tony?

What percentage of five year olds fatalities are due to gunshots Tony?

I know science is not a strong suit, what with your superstitious support for the CAGW cult, but you should at least try thinking empirically once in a while.

[T o n y]

I've not expressed an opinion on gun control, except to say that it's probably impractical at this moment.

But why am I talking to a person who thinks science is optional.

[tarran]

But why am I talking to a person who thinks science is optional

I don't know, why do you talk to yourself?

Is this some kind of riddle?

[Enough About Palin]

"Is this some kind of riddle?"

I believe the word is koan.

[MJGreen]

We all know the only use of a gun is to shoot kindergarteners.

[T o n y]

Or other living beings.

I'm not saying banning guns is feasible or a solution, but target practice is hardly an inviolable right worth the number of gun deaths in this country.

[iggy]

Keep knockin' down those strawmen, Tony! Don't bother contending with the argument that gun control doesn't reduce crime.

Your constant wishy-washy statism is even worse than the hardcore type of statism. You say you aren't saying banning guns is feasible or a solution, yet all of your posts hint at gun control.

"Look guys, I'm not saying gun control is a good idea, but something MUST BE DONE about all these guns."

[tarran]

It really does read like, "I'm not saying that blacks should be segregated, I'm just trying to have a conversation about the danger of mixing the races."

[Shmurphy]

There is no right to target practice, there is a right to defense from harm. If a right is abused then that's a terrible thing, but it doesn't make the right invalid for the rest of us who act responsibly.

[Monty Crisco]

Fuck you, Tony. You're logic is SHIT, as usual. LEt's say that we acted on your moronic statist agenda and banned all private ownership of guns and all legal concealed carry of them. Do you think criminals or those intent on murdering indisciminately would NOT be able to get guns? And then what would be standing between us and murderous pychos like the guy who perpetrated this act? Nothing, except the cops, who are NEVER there...beecause they can't be everywhere (and who would want them to be?!?).
You are a fucking moron shitstain, Tony and the true tragedy of today was that more statist fucks like you were in this assholes path instead of innocent children...

[T o n y]

No, it would not be practical to prevent guns getting in the hands of psychopaths, mostly because gun-rights absolutists and their lobby have ensured maximum proliferation.

Of course the good thing about being a dogmatist is that you never have to take responsibility for anything. Must be nice.

[Sarah Conner]

Most gun toting psychopaths work for your beloved government.

[Libertymike]

You were very sexy, circa 1991.

[Brian]

Tony said:

Of course the good thing about being a dogmatist is that you never have to take responsibility for anything. Must be nice.

I think it makes more rational sense to hold the government responsible for its misdeeds and killings, than to hold gun rights advocates responsible for the actions of insane people.

The government itself actually kills millions through the FDA. That's not the FDA enabling psychopaths. It's the actual FDA, killing people by keeping medicine off the market.

Maybe the government should lead by example and take responsibility for its own actions, instead of holding law abiding citizens responsible for psychos.

Either that, or demonstrate that they have the God-like knowledge and foresight to prevent every bad person from doing every bad thing, like getting a gun. As this event demonstrates once again, when seconds count, the government is only minutes away. Finding psycho murderers dead bodies in their apartments after suicide is great and all, but I'd like a little more speedy service before we ban self-defense.

[Monty Crisco]

So, you DO think it would prevent criminals or the mentally ill from getting guns?

When has this ever happened?

Has making drugs illegal worked?
Did prohibition "work"?
Does the fact that there is NO legal private gun ownership in the charming country south of the border of us mean there are NO gun murders?

Do you care anything about facts or history or are you just a statist idiot?

To pose the question is to answer it...

[T o n y]

I don't know what would prevent it. On this rare instance I have very few answers. All I can say is mass shootings are a problem in this country that probably deserve to be seriously discussed by policymakers.

[iggy]

Shootings are so bad in this country that a whole 2.5 per 100,000 more people are killed per year than in Canada.

Ye Gods, I'm amazed any of us haven't been shot.

[Michael Ejercito]

I don't know what would prevent it. On this rare instance I have very few answers. All I can say is mass shootings are a problem in this country that probably deserve to be seriously discussed by policymakers.

The government can start by disarming itself. By its own admission, one of its agents massacred a number of people close to the number killed in Newtown.

[Greg]

Cause only "policymakers" can possibly fix a problem, right Tony?

[sloopyinca]

Taking your logic to its conclusion, crossing the street on the way to school is also a natural right, therefore cars should be banned. And not getting fat is a natural right, so forks are right out as well.

I see you managed to pull a giant strawman out of your ass with your first post of the thread. Color me unsurprised.

[Sarah Conner]

Maybe they should make killing children illegal before they make owning a gun illegal. First things first.

[Gindjurra]

Yeah, after all, we call people criminals because of their profound respect for the law and absolute refusal to ever break a law, right?

I can make a gun with unpowered hand tools in my garage. I can make ammunition from naturally available raw materials. I am a jack-of-all trades, and I am nowhere near a master of anything.

I saw a video once of a guy in Afghanistan who can make one full-auto AK-47 a day with just hand tools and a forge you could fit into a briefcase.

You can't get rid of guns without getting rid of tools in general and all knowledge of chemistry and metallurgy. That's right, America can be safe from guns at the low, low cost of becoming a third world nation. Is it worth the cost?

[Not an Economist]

Lets ban knives too because they can be used to kill kids too (reference the person in China who slashed 27 schoolkids).

And cars, baseball bats, tire irons, and ....

[fish]

Yeah I'll defend them!

FUCK YOU THAT'S WHY!

[thom]

Fuck off.

[Francisco d Anconia]

You bet.

U.S. Constitution
Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Nothing more need be argued.

Fuck off, slaver.

[JW]

Anybody feel like defending guns today?

Fuck off, cunt.

[Rights-Minimalist Autocrat]

You are a ghoul.

[AZ]

I defend gun rights every day, because in the world of logic, reason and fact, you lose.

Because you always lose in that world, you become the sort of vile opportunist that will play in the blood of kindergarteners to advance your "cause."

[Professor Booty]

I will go on a record as saying it could have been a million dead kids and I still wouldn't budge on the issue. So fuck you.

[ant1sthenes]

You know how sleazy funeral home directors take advantage of the fact that people don't think rationally when grieving to rip them off? That's basically what gun control advocates like you are the political equivalent of.

[Rasilio]

Well that and their government granted monopoly

[db]

Fuck off, you political opportunist. Standing on dead children to make your point. I spit on you.

[Zeb]

Yes, asshole. Everyone who supports gun rights knew that something like this could happen and very well might happen. You would have to be an idiot to think that this would change the mind of any thoughtful person who supports gun rights. Reasonable people understand that bad things will happen, whatever the laws are.

[LTC(ret) John]

As William S. Burroughs once said, "After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it."

h/t Glenn Reynolds

[Paul.]

Anybody feel like defending guns today? Or your "right to bear arms"?

Yes. As a gun owner and parent, where would you like me to start?

[Rasilio]

I do, put guns in the hands of a couple of those teachers and the body count would be a hell of a lot lower.

[Gunther]

HAHAHA
Oh you're serious? Let me laugh even harder.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Shmurphy]

I'm not sure why that's funny. An armed teacher wouldn't allow a bunch of kids to be shot. Unfortunately it's not likely that they all would have been saved considering the surprise of the attack, but it sure as hell would have been a lower number if someone could have been there to put a few bullets into the shooter before he could finish on his own.

[Gindjurra]

Exactly. The first classroom he ran into would be screwed. An armed teacher in the second classroom, however, would have stopped him dead.

[acidovorax]

I do, put guns in the hands of a couple of those teachers and the body count would be a hell of a lot lower.

Sorry, but I cringe when I hear these types of arguments. We have NO CLUE what the rates would be in such a situation. It's possible that, as you posit, an armed teacher would intervene and take out the assailant. But it's very likely that the teacher, like many people would reflexively attempt to flee from danger. Regardless of what an armed teacher might do, the right of self-defense trumps the notion of "public safety".

[Gindjurra]

But...we do know that. Because the armed teacher scenario has happened before.

The teacher usually gets fired for stopping the shooting spree, and the mad gunman gets dead before he can kill a bunch of kids.

[tarran]

Cite?

[John C. Randolph]

Blow it out your ass. In a situation like this, the thing we need most of all is a rational, armed person to take out the attacker. Today's events demonstrate once again that helplessness is not a winning survival strategy.

-jcr

[Mensan]

Go fuck yourself, you slimy piece of maggot shit.

[Cnk]

Why do you think I give a shit what you think about my right to bear arms?

Your opinion is wholly irrelevant.

[Vapourwear]

I don't even have to read the comments any more. I read your name, presume that is what I would say, and move on.

Thanks for making it so damn convenient to ignore you.

[Karl Hungus]

Anybody feel like defending guns today? Or your "right to bear arms"?

You love these stories, don't you? You love the opportunity that it gives you to climb up on your soapbox and spout your nonsense.

[mgd]

I will. I have had a gun all day long and haven't shot anyone with it.

[VG Zaytsev]

Anybody feel like defending guns today?

Yep, I do.

Oh and fuck off slaver!

[HazelMeade]

Execellent touch with the "k" in Amerika. It ensures that you'll instantly piss off and alienate the people you're trying to convince.

[LibertyBelle]

Yeah, heartless. I do. In fact, I'd defend lifting the ban on guns on school property. Perhaps if some of those teachers were legally allowed to carry, the body count would be lowered.

This makes my heart break, and makes me so angry. What kind of scumbag shoots up a kindergarten!?

[DesigNate]

Go die in a fire you worthless piece of shit.

[Gindjurra]

More people have been killed throughout history by the misapplication of the knowledge found in books than by the misapplication of the bullets found in guns.

The first and second amendment use the same language and provide the same strength of protection to the rights they each safeguard. If you can ban guns, you can ban literacy too.

Any argument that can be made for banning "dangerous" tools can be made for banning "dangerous" knowledge even more strongly.

Is that really the slope you want to slide down headfirst?

[Michael Ejercito]

Anybody feel like defending guns today? Or your "right to bear arms"?
Re-evaluate, Amerika.
How many more innocent people have to be fatally shot before you realize that your gun fetish is a bigger threat to your safety than furriners, terrrrrists, King George III or the gubmint?

When will the government give up its guns?

[tarran]

Jesus!

What a piece of shit!

What a god-damned scum-sucking piece of shit!

[John]

Horrible.

[$park?]

Listening to a report on the radio right now, they're saying 18 kids killed and 8 adults.

[Translucent Chum]

Fuck. A whole classroom of Kindergartners?

[Hugh Akston]

Just awful.

[John]

They are saying on the CBSNY site that police suspect a second gunman. Who the did this? Killing kids is beyond even your typical homocidal loser.

[Libertymike]

Just like the hundreds of kids murdered by drone strikes ordered by Obama.

[John]

Go fuck yourself Mike. To stand on dead bodies to make political points somewhere else.

[Enough About Palin]

I disagree, John.

[Enough About Palin]

We really do drone strikes that kill kids. It's relevant. And raising questions does not diminish the tragedy.

[tarran]

EAP,

There are appropriate times and venues to make such parallels. This is not one of them.

[SIV]

This is a political website.

[JW]

There are appropriate times and venues to make such parallels. This is not one of them.

Not disagreeing with this sentiment, but it's appropriate when one of the TEAM drones comes along and pulls this shit. "Is this child dead enough for you?" on Counterpunch is an appropriate response.

Anyone who freaks out over guns on something like this, but pulled the lever for the Big Zero has no fucking credibility on the issue. None. At. All.

[Cnk]

And who elected you arbiter of what's appropriate you fucking asshole?

[Libertymike]

Why are you choosing to be so rude and nasty?

Why do you asert that I am "mak[ing] political points"? Anarcho-free enterprise-individualists do not make political points as we abhor politics.

Politics is for those who want to have defense department related jobs.

[John]

You are totally doing that. And I don't mean to be rude but a nut shooting a bunch of kids in Connecticut has nothing to do with Pakistan. It just doesn't.

[Libertymike]

John, you made an assertion above, namely:

"Killing kids is beyond even your typical homocide loser."

Thus, how is my statement out of bounds? Are we to condemn those who remind us that american presidents engage in the mass murder of children whenever there is a domestic mass murder of children?

What has garnered more attention, Obama's mass murdering children in Pakistatn, Yemen, Afghanistan et al or this Sandy Hook indicident in the last hour?

[Zeb]

Mike kind of has a point. We get all sad about this, but not so much about the kids who get bombed to death. While this seems more disgusting to most people, it seems, it is just as bad for the kids and their families in either case. And the kids are just as innocent in either case.

[Not an Economist]

Because there is a difference between accidentally killing kids (I doubt the US has ever intentionally targeted kids in the Middle East) and intentionally killing kids. Yeah in both cases kids die, but intent does matter.

[Enough About Palin]

"(I doubt the US has ever intentionally targeted kids in the Middle East)"

WASHINGTON -- A 16-year-old American boy killed in an Obama administration drone strike "should have [had] a far more responsible father," Obama campaign senior adviser Robert Gibbs says in a new video released by the group We Are Change.

Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was the son of Anwar al-Awlaki, an al Qaeda propagandist killed by a U.S. drone a year ago. But the child was killed in a separate strike some two weeks after his father was killed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....12438.html

[Not an Economist]

I have read the kid was killed when the house he was staying at was targeted because there was another person of interest at that house. In other words the US was not trying to kill him but someone else. He was just collateral damage.

Not that makes him any less dead(and I'm not saying the US was right) but the US was NOT trying to kill him. The shooter at the school WAS targeting kids.

[aix42]

accidently? US has bombed the funerals of previous drone victims. Families attend funerals.

I guess indiffernce to life is better than hostility?

[Alex]

a nut shooting a bunch of kids in Connecticut has nothing to do with Pakistan.

True.

In the former, the guman is clearly not in his right mind. People will universally find such actions horrible and unacceptable.

In the latter, sane, reasonable men commit these acts, and sane, reasonable people consider them acceptable. That's a far worse situation.

[Vapourwear]

"In the latter, sane, reasonable men commit these acts, and sane, reasonable people consider them acceptable. That's a far worse situation."

I disagree. The ability to turn of the processing of the consequences of such actions MUST be a mental illness.

[Robert]

So you think there's no causal cx between this and a similar event the same day in China? And the Chinese one is said to be part of a wave of kindergarten or elementary school attacks.

[Chris Mallory]

A "nut" might be insane. The president and his minions do it with a clear mind. You are right, it doesn't compare.

[You gotta be kidding me]

This is the perfect time to make political comments, such as:
Time for gun control.

[fish]

This is the perfect time to make political comments, such as:
Time for gun control. Time for you to go fuck yourself!

[CE]

You mean like banning guns in schools? Oh wait, they already are.

[Harvard]

[You mean like banning guns in schools?]

Right on. I'm reserving comment as I believe the entire story to be a cruel hoax. Everyone knows schools are gun free zones. It's the fucking LAW!

[Monty Crisco]

That's right! And if that law has been passed it can't be broken! Now we just have to make murdering kids ILLEGAL!!!

Gosh, You gotta be kidding me is a FUCKING BOOGER-EATING TYPICAL LIBERAL MORON!!!!

[WTF]

Since the shooter was from NJ, and therefore subject to strict gun control laws, this incident proves that gun control laws do not work to prevent incidents such as this. Fuck off, slaver.

[JW]

Starve it, people.

[Cnk]

No John, fuck you for trying to parse which evil is appropriate for discussion.

[Enough About Palin]

I had a post questioning whether this was a false-flag operation like F&F and it was taken down. The thing is, the fact that we drone stike kids made me think it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

Now I saw the first comment that was deleted and my post wasn't in response to that person, so why was it deleted? It's not as if I'm someone that never posts here.

[Proprietist]

We're all fairly shocked and irrational right now. Some people like you cope by immediately assuming government conspiracies regardless of the current state of facts, and it doesn't help those of us who are at least attempting to process the tragedy rationally based on what is known. Please grow up.

[Enough About Palin]

"Some people like you cope by immediately assuming government conspiracies regardless of the current state of facts"

Once is not a coping mechanism trend.

[tarran]

STFU Mike. Seriously.

Even when you have a point to make, you are such an asshole as to not be worth listening to.

In fact, you really want to make the world freer? Bring your special brand of advocacy in support of big government, because you argue so effectively against the shit you support.

[Libertymike]

So, all you can do is go the anti-intellectual, rude, uniformed, tough guy route?

[tarran]

So, all you can do is go the anti-intellectual, rude, uniformed, tough guy route?

No sweetie, I leave that behavior to you, since you are the master of it.

[Libertymike]

Tu quoque argumentation is still a logical fallacy. Particularly when the content of the tu quoque is demonstrably false.

Perhaps you are ignorant of the fact that I am far less likely than you or most posters here to engage in the "you are an asshole" or "STFU" type of communication. By choice.

[You gotta be kidding me]

Libertymike doesn't get out of his paranoiasphere very often. He'd have to leave his guns home alone. And that would make him sad.

[Libertymike]

Libertymike does not own any guns and never has.

[Rasilio]

Just something to think about.

Firing a missile at a building 10,000 miles away from you != standing in a room, looking a terrified 6 year old in the eye and shooting him

[Vapourwear]

How the fuck NOT?

If a person is incapable of imagining in vivid detail the results of his running a flying death machine a gagillion miles away, he has no fucking business doing that.

If you can't imagine the fear of others, without having to be presented with it vis a vis....

[TomD]

Utterly horrific.

If we're looking at historical context, this one seems to trump them all.

[nicole]

AP is saying "worst school tragedy in American history," though, I don't know, the whole "imprisoning millions daily" thing seems pretty tragic too.

[TomD]

AP is saying "worst school tragedy in American history,"

Even beyond the sheer numbers, the fact that we're talking about classrooms of 6-year-olds is what pushes this into a whole different realm.

Human beings certainly do manage to suck a lot. Fuck.

[Enough About Palin]

No politics, Nicole.

[nicole]

If only I hadn't been reading political bullshit about this already for the past hour.

[Ted S.]

We know the gun-grabbers are going to play politics over this. So when does it become appropriate for those of us who defend the second amendment to start engaging in political commentary?

[iggy]

When we become as depraved and sociopathic as they are. Since we currently have principles, hopefully never.

[Eric]

At some point you're going to have to accept the fact that the 2nd enables this kind of shit. And those who support the 2nd unequivocally haven't found a good answer to these kinds of atrocities. The easiest answer is the unconstitutional one. As someone who loves freedom (but not necessarily guns)I accept that, but don't have to like it.

Further Iggy, the depraved sociopath was the gun owner(s) who killed a bunch of little kids today. Not those who seek to address the situation. Please remember that, when you go back to the echo chamber known as H&R.

[Suthenboy]

"At some point you're going to have to accept the fact that the 2nd enables this kind of shit."

No, I dont because it doesnt. Nor would repealing the 2nd prevent this from happening. Your easy answer is no answer at all.

[You gotta be kidding me]

Suthenboy,
Are you going to posts a list of all the guns you fap to at night? I can't remember the story from months ago where you did that, and I won't bother looking forward to it, but I'd like to see that list today. It would put you more clearly in the light of the mentally ill.

[Monty Crisco]

So, Suthenboy is "mentally ill" just because he owns guns?

Newsflash: SUDDEN EPIDEMIC STRIKES AS MILLIONS OF AMERICANS ARE SUDDENLY DECLARED MENTALLY ILL!!

YGTBKM, you really are a sad fucking loser...

[iggy]

So Eric, do you believe that drug control has kept drugs off our streets? Do you believe that other countries would be unwilling to ship guns to America in response to an American gun ban?

This isn't an eco-chamber issue, it's a basic understanding of the nature of black markets and prohibition. And yes, when people who hate guns take advantage of a tragedy to advance a political opinion, they are depraved. It must be pretty nice to assume people who disagree with you are the victims of an eco-chamber, while not actually contending with any of my arguments.

[Eric]

I actually support the 2nd...but only because it is in the Constitution, not because I love guns (which I do happen to own).

Nowhere in my original post do I advocate prohibition of guns.

[Vapourwear]

"I actually support the 2nd...but only because it is in the Constitution, not because I love guns (which I do happen to own)."

So you support it for totally arbitrary reasons?

Think it through, Eric. This is Reason, after all.

[Eric]

No dumbass. I support it because it's in the Constitution. And that's the only reason.

[tarran]

Soooo, if the Constitution defended the 'right' of men to force their wives to submit to their sexual advances by preventing state and the fedgov from legislating against it, would you support that as well?

If not, why the different attitude?

[Eric]

That's a misdirection. I support the 2nd because laws against it represent an open door against other constitutionally guaranteed rights. I'll suffer the 2nd, if it means that the 1st, and 4th cannot be touched either.

[tarran]

That's not supporting the second ammendment.

That merely means you accept a government that operates within constitutional strictures.

Supporting the second ammendment would include, for instance, opposing any effort to repeal it via Constitutional Amendment. Yet it seems that you would support such a measure.

[tarran]

That's not supporting the second ammendment.

That merely means you accept a government that operates within constitutional strictures.

Supporting the second amendment would include, for instance, opposing any effort to repeal it via Constitutional Amendment. Yet it seems that you would support such a measure.

[Anonymous Coward]

4th cannot be touched either

Awwwww, he thinks the Fourth Amendment still exists in America. Isn't that precious?

Now run along and play, you little scamp.

[Eric]

On that thought, why is it there is so little nuance on this site? You've got your pet Republican trolls, who you disagree with sometimes, your hated liberal trolls who could say the sky is blue and you'd disagree with, and then the plurality of posters who seem to fit somewhere along the Autism scale.

I would think that there would be more intellectual nuance for a site called Reason. Instead, most of what should pass for discourse ends up as follows: "Die in a Fucking Fire Asshat" - generally directed at anyone who posts a thought to the left of Gengis Khan.

[tarran]

That's not answering the question, Eric.

Soooo, if the Constitution defended the 'right' of men to force their wives to submit to their sexual advances by preventing state and the fedgov from legislating against it, would you support that as well?

If not, why the different attitude?

[Eric]

See above

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Eric, you seem to want to engage in a reasoned debate with the commenters here. But there is really no room for debate. The 2A is explicit and stands as it should. If you get DIAF Asshat responses, it's because you already know what the libertarian position is, but you keep harping. This is trolling. There is little sympathy for trolls.

If you want to know what the libertarian opinion is on any of the issues in the Bill of Rights, read the Bill of Rights and it's original intent.

That is my interpretation of what you are experiencing. YMMV.

[iggy]

You say that you're in favor of the second amendment only because it's in the constitution and WE'RE autistic? Supporting something just because it's in the constitution is the most childish thing I've ever heard.

It would be like basing your view of the world on what your daddy says. I'd also argue that we constantly give reasons for our arguments, not the least of which is all the stuff I've posted about the fact that gun control doesn't reduce crime.

We disagree with you, most of us post reasons why we disagree with you, and all you hear is DIE IN A FUCKING FIRE ASSHAT? I did not post a single thing attacking you personally, until you started whining like a pissy little girl when people disagreed with you. So stop acting like I'm the one who was unreasonable, when you're the one who couldn't make an argument without taking opposing views personally.

[tarran]

Actually, iggy, he doesn't support the second amendment. Eric is very sloppy with his language.

What he meant was he supports the govt obeying the strictures of the Bill of Rights, including those established by the 2nd.

[Robert]

It's "News, Views, and Abuse", Eric.

[Rasilio]

"At some point you're going to have to accept the fact that the 2nd enables this kind of shit."

Wrong, life enables this kind of shit.

Legal or illegal, guns or no guns every now and then some crazy will kill a bunch of people.

Outlaw the guns and the crazy will either get one illegally or use a different weapon.

The fact is no amount of laws could ever prevent this because it is impossible to prevent everything.

[Rasilio]

The one thing the 2nd Amendment does enable is the crime of passion.

An atrocity like this does not happen on the spur of the moment, so if someone desires to carry one out making the guns illegal will not stop them, however take the Javon Belcher case, had he not had the gun it is possible he would have only physically assaulted his girlfriend when he reached his breaking point in the argument. Not a guarantee of course but a possibility.

And yes, I accept this small risk as being acceptable for the benefits provided by the 2nd Amendment.

[Shmurphy]

Or he would have stabbed her, or he would have poisoned her, or he would have strangled her, or he would have beaten her to death, or he would have drowned her, or he would have........

[Rasilio]

No he certainly could have done those things but realistically he probably wasn't specifically trying to kill her, he probably wasn't trying to do anything but rather was reacting on pure emotion.

Certainly in such a mental state there are any number of ways in which he could have killed her so no amount of laws for or against guns would have prevented it but the presence of a gun does make it easier.

The counter to it of course is had he actually planned to kill her the absence of guns would have made it no harder for him to accomplish the task but her having one would have given her a far greater chance at surviving.

Anyone who looks at the evidence would conclude that liberal gun laws save far more lives by preventing other violence than they cost by facilitating the rare crime of passion but it does not mean we have to ignore that there is a cost side of the ledger.

[Greg]

He fired multiple shots into her, didn't he? If he wasn't trying to kill her they were all just fired to get his point across I suppose?

[Sarah Conner]

The 2nd has nothing to do with this. It's all in your head, because you see conspiracies everywhere. Stop blaming innocent amendments for things they didn't do.

[Michael Ejercito]

And those who support the 2nd unequivocally haven't found a good answer to these kinds of atrocities. The easiest answer is the unconstitutional one. As someone who loves freedom (but not necessarily guns)I accept that, but don't have to like it.

Should we disarm, let alone disband, the police in reaction to what happened to Kenneth Chamberlain?

[Proprietist]

It's a tragedy that there weren't any legally (or illegally) armed people able to quickly respond. That's both a logical emotional response and a political statement by demonstrating that these children were easy targets thanks in part to gun-free zone laws. If the shooter deserves primary and disproportionate blame, the government deserves blame as an unintentional enabler. It's no coincidence mass shootings with a high body count always seem to take place in locations where guns are legally banned. On the contrary, widespread firearm restrictions have not prevented similar tragedies in Mexico and China.

[Suthenboy]

" It's no coincidence mass shootings with a high body count always seem to take place in locations where guns are legally banned."

The thread is too long now for me to go back and see who said it, but the comment " you are safer at a gun show than at an elementary school" is right on the mark.

[You gotta be kidding me]

Post your list of guns today, Suthenboy.
Then when you scroll through this story, you can fap to it while celebrating your ideological purity.

[Shmurphy]

Considering you've essentially posted this twice, you should be aware that you're the one coming across as getting off on your self-superiority.

Instead, please provide us with your arguments for preventing the kind of tyranny and crime that we have guns to protect ourselves from, without said guns being available.

[Ted S.]

The thread is too long now for me to go back and see who said it,

Doesn't your browser have a "search in page" function?

Using Opera's, it quickly yielded Anonymous Coward as the perceptive person.

[Anonymous Coward]

Using Opera's, it quickly yielded Anonymous Coward as the perceptive person.

Wait, what did I do?

[You gotta be kidding me]

Prop,
Yah, that would have solved it. Arm the teachers so we could have had an OK Corral shootout at an elementary school.
It's funny how a crowdl that like to crow "if govt is broken we don't need more govt" crowd is OK with "we wouldn't have so many gun deaths if we could all just carry guns"
Love Reason. I even donated. Butt he gun thing is your weakness, people.

[sloopyinca]

Yah, that would have solved it. Arm the teachers so we could have had an OK Corral shootout at an elementary school.

What's worse: an OK Corral shootout or the My Lai Massacre?

Jesus Christ. There is a gun ban at the school. The only people it worked on were the law-abiding ones. Don't you fucking get that, you asshole?

[John C. Randolph]

Sadly, he doesn't. Gun grabbers cling to this fantasy that all the bad people will be disarmed if only the government seizes enough power.

-jcr

[Not an Economist]

Actually, at the OK Corral, only the people who were involve were shot so that would have been better than happened here.

[Eric]

Suthenboy
Ft. Hood was not a gun free zone and that guy killed 13 and wounded 29.

Let's just pretend that this school had an armed guard who was capable and trained to carry out his duty. Do you think that would have changed much? Perhaps he would have gotten there in time to save a few kids, but the shooter would have still been able to take down way too many children, for me to say that was an effective solution. Further what kind of security state would we need to build in order to develop this kind of vigilance?

[iggy]

Name one country whose homicide rate has noticeably decreased due to tougher gun control. I'll wait.

http://thebrennerbrief.com/201.....uce-crime/

Here's some reading to keep you busy.

[sloopyinca]

Ft Hood was, in fact, predominately a gun-free zone. Very few soldiers are allowed to be armed while on post today, and the area he attacked was one such area where only a few people were able to be armed (the MP's and a few select officers).

As to your second point, we need not build any type of "security state" to achieve the goal of increased safety in schools. Merely enforce the 2A to the letter of the law and allow teachers, administrators and of-age students to carry at their discretion and shooters like this piece of shit will either think twice before storming a school or would at least be engaged by a courageous teacher.

[Shmurphy]

We have a winnah! As sooon as I saw Eric refer to Ft. Hood as "not a gun-free zone" I knew someone would drop a fact bomb within at least two posts. Right on the money!

[Redmanfms]

Ft. Hood was not a gun free zone and that guy killed 13 and wounded 29.

I know when I was in the military I walked around base heeled. Oh wait, no, I didn't. Why? Because only those who are permitted to carry firearms as a part of their duty (e.g. base police) have weapons or ready access to them. Carrying (or even possession) of personally-owned firearms on base is strictly prohibited.

Do people seriously believe we all walk around with slung M-4s all day?

[Eric]

No. So by this logic only arming the elementary school staff would be akin to a "gun free zone". The kindergartners should be allowed to carry then?

Further, I didn't know that the army was full of a bunch of pansy ass gun control freaks. No wonder we can't win any wars. (snark alert)

[Cnk]

Um, you got caught in a lie guy.

You don't have any credibility now.

[John C. Randolph]

The kindergartners should be allowed to carry then?

No, the staff responsible for their safety should be allowed to carry. There's a reason why even raving lunatics rarely choose gun stores as a venue for their murderous rampages.

-jcr

[Bobarian]

FT Hood was and is a more gun free zone than this school was.

Gun restrictions on military posts are right up even with Federal Buildings for restrictions and penalties.

[Enough About Palin]

"Ft. Hood was not a gun free zone and that guy killed 13 and wounded 29."

I was told that is was.

[John C. Randolph]

Hood was not a gun free zone

You need to check the facts, son. Soliders at Ft. Hood were not allowed to carry weapons or ammo except on the range.

-jcr

[Rasilio]

Uh Yes it fucking was a gun free zone. Firearms are tightly controled on military bases and only on duty MP's are typically allowed to carry them.

[Monty Crisco]

Eric -
You're a fucking moron who has never been on an Army post. Every one of them has STRICTLY controlled access to any private firearms if you live on post, no matter who you are. IF you LEGALLY want to possess firearms and live on post and are any rank but Post Commander, you have to have your weapons stored in the armory when not in use. This is blanket policy for the Army. The Post Commander and the DoA do not recognize concealed carry permits on post...

And don't need a "security state" in order to be vigilant. WE just need some responsible citizens who exercise their ALREADY EXISTENT 2nd amendment rights... you fucking idiot. What is so hard to get about that?

[Heroic Mulatto]

Further what kind of security state would we need to build in order to develop this kind of vigilance?

Every American a rifleman.

[You gotta be kidding me]

The gun grabbers? Is that the latest term for Teh Boogerman hiding under your bed, Ted?
How about the Gun Fetishists? Who don't seem to care how many people have to be murdered before they'll acknowledge that being able to buy a gun for $239 as a stocking stuffer is emblematic of a sick society.
Re-evaluate gun fetishists.
Re-evaluate.

[Libertymike]

Re-evaluate?

Have you?

No more guns for cops. Ever.

No more guns for any government employees. Ever.

Not one dime for "defense" or the "war on terrah".

How about that re-evaluation?

[You gotta be kidding me]

Changed your handle to Paranoid MIke, because that's what you are.
King George III isn't coming to get you.
And Teh Boogerman isn 't hiding under your bed.
So stop fapping to your gun collection and start thinking clearly about guns.
Your little dick extension won't save you, like it might have in 1776.
The army would crush you and your gun-porn collection. Accept that fact and you'll be better off.

[iggy]

I don't own any guns, You Gotta Be Kidding Me. Not one. So your argument that I'm just trying to hold onto my 'dick extension' is clearly wrong.

No nation's murder rate has ever significantly changed as the result of gun control. Can you explain to me why Russia's homicide rate is 5 times what ours is, despite far tougher gun control? It's almost like gun control does not significantly effect the ability of an individual to get a gun, much less the ability of that individual to kill somebody.

If you want to argue, then argue. Don't just attack your opponent.

[iggy]

I'm done talking about. We really shouldn't be arguing politics on a thread about tragedy. If you want to claim that I'm holding onto my metal cock, then fine.

[Ted S.]

For the record, I don't own any firearms either.

[DWC]

Well, actually both Nazi Germany and Pol Pot's Cambodia had extreme gun control and their murder rates make ours look like nothing.

[Vapourwear]

I think this one got some training over at DU.

[Francisco d Anconia]

The Army is on Mike's side, dickhead. There oath is to the Constitution.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Their

[Libertymike]

Perhaps the fact that I do not own any guns has not caught up with the edit function of his narrative.

[Heroic Mulatto]

The Army is on Mike's side, dickhead. There oath is to the Constitution.

If only that were true. If it were, there would be no need for an organization like Oathkeepers. Remember the soldiers what went door to door in New Orleans to take guns from homeowners after Katrina? Note how they did this in violation of the law?

[Professor Booty]

Why don't you just kill yourself in a fire you disgusting fascist. Honestly. Maybe we'll get lucky and you can take your children with you so your totalitarian seed dies off for good.

[Enough About Palin]

Dear You gotta be kidding me,

Your mental melding of guns, penises and masturbation intrigues me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Cnk]

"The army would crush you and your gun-porn collection."

Like in Iraq. And Afghanistan.

[Redmanfms]

Like in Iraq. And Afghanistan.

Given the total lack of proportion in casualty rates combined with extremely restrictive RoEs and the fact that the insurgents/terrorists/Taliban/al Queda/whatever have access to vastly more potent weapons than the average American gun owner, I'm going to go ahead and say that I would be really uncomfortable with such odds.

The statist fuckhead in this respect is (shudder) essentially correct. Should the might of the U.S. military be turned on the citizenry we'd be well and truly fucked.

[Michael Ejercito]

The statist fuckhead in this respect is (shudder) essentially correct. Should the might of the U.S. military be turned on the citizenry we'd be well and truly fucked.

Fine, we attack the financial institutions.

No pay, no soldiers willing to obey orders.

[Sarah Conner]

Great, more statist-bots trolling the site today.

[Shmurphy]

"The army would crush you and your gun-porn collection. Accept that fact and you'll be better off."

Wow... Why are we even acknowledging this person?

[Shmurphy]

I haven't really seen any fetishism here, just people concerned about having their rights taken away. I contend that you may want to "re-evaluate" your own anti-gun fetishism.

[Not an Economist]

Considering the Bath school bombings in 1927 killed 38 kids, six adults I'm not sure about the "worst school tragedy in American History".

It does come far too close.

[SIV]

Link

Bath School Disaster

[Proprietist]

Yes, and the fact that it occurred right before Christmas and that the children were so young and defenseless merely adds to the tragedy.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Here we go.

ITZ TEH GUUUUNNZZZ!

[Libertymike]

How long before the gun grabbing goosesteppers start shrieking?

[nicole]

Are you kidding? Already there.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Was just over at CNN.

It's immediate.

[Zeb]

Every time some tragedy involving a gun happens you would think that no one ever considered the possibility that a person with a gun could do this before. We know that shit like this can happen. And probably will. But these assholes always immediately jump on as if there is some new lesson to be learned about guns.

Shit like this just sucks. There is no lesson to be learned beyond that people can do shitty things sometimes.

[Restoras]

Sooner than immediately, if possible.

[Eric]

And how long before Ted Nugent (et al.) says something unbelievably callous and stupid in response?

[iggy]

Which he shouldn't do. Thank God we're not Ted Nugent. If you want to argue with what we're actually saying, we're right here.

[Eric]

What I don't get is: Why does being a libertarian seem to mean "I'm a fucking gun-nut who loses all sense of reality when teh librals try to blame my gun for mass murder?"

Yes. Absolutely, we should arm kindergarten teachers, and janitors, and schoolchildren, and goats, and turtles...yes that will solve everything..."because they will embrace a paraniod gun culture just like I have"

Where the fuck are the reasonable Libertarians for christ sake?

[Libertymike]

Eric, if you haven't noticed, many of us here are not gun owners. Sorry, I know that fact kind of throws a monkey wrench into your narrative.

[iggy]

I don't own any guns and I don't think we should arm everyone in a school. I just think that tough gun control has never been shown to have any noticeable impact on crime rates. Crime rates rise and fall almost totally independently of current gun laws, and individual states and individual cities with tough gun laws are rarely any safer the places with lax gun laws.

Meanwhile, tough gun control has been consistently used by governments seeking to eliminate the rights of its population in other regards. Therefore, when a government starts talking about disarming its citizenry, it serves as a valuable canary in a coal mine.

Is that reasonable enough for you, or would you like to keep knocking down those strawmen?

[iggy]

Shit. THAN the places with lax gun laws. I am having the worst time proofreading my posts today.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Where the fuck are the reasonable Libertarians for christ sake?

What do you consider reasonable? Blaming an inanimate object for the deaths?

Really Eric...tell us what you'd do to "solve" the issue?

[iggy]

My favorite part of Eric's argument is that he says he's pro-second amendment. He says the second amendment 'enables this shit' and that I shouldn't criticize the gun control advocates who are trying to 'address the problem,' but he's still in favor of the second amendment. He thinks I'm being unreasonable for arguing in favor of the second amendment, even though Eric says he's in favor of the second amendment.

I don't know what he's trying to argue.

[Eric]

Iggy. It is possible to be anti-gun, but pro-Constitution. I support the 2nd because I fear the slippery slope created created if it is weakened.

Mostly, what pissed me off was your comment about "depraved sociopaths" on the left, when we're talking about someone who killed 27 people with a gun. Methinks your adjectives are missplaced.

Further, despite hating guns, I own them due to practical reasons. Like being on the wrong side of the barrel, holding a knife when a true depraved sociopath is trying to hurt me or mine.

[iggy]

And he's a sociopath too. I never said he wasn't.

Do you think it's okay to use the deaths of children to support your political argument? Because I think it's pretty depraved. I stand by that adjective. It is possible for multiple people to be depraved for different reasons.

[Eric]

Francisco. Good question, and I don't have a solution. I guess this is the price we pay to live in a (sort of) free society. But the glib bullshit being thrown around here...reminds me of why I no longer consider Libertarianism...too much like right-wing Republicanism for me...oh well. Back to work.

[iggy]

Hello, my name is Eric! I haven't actually bothered to make an argument, other than calling people names and referring to them as glib. When people make arguments about the fact that gun control has no impact on murder rates, I call them glib Republicans!

I support the second amendment, yet hate you for supporting the second amendment.

Supporting your arguments is for pussies. Well, back to work! /Eric

[Eric]

Hi. My name is Iggy (rhymes with Ziggy). I'm 33 years old, 50 lbs overweight, and live with my mom. I'd have a huge gun if she would let me, but she won't so I'm saving my money from working at the Piggly Wiggly until I can buy a house and stock it full of guns. In my spare time I chat with my friends online, and post really enlightening political insight with like minded people on Reason. If anyone challenges my thinking, me and my friends will make fun of them. They usually go away and then we can get back to chatting about how smart we are, and how stupid everyone else is.

[iggy]

This is hilarious. I attacked you based on actual things you said, like calling us glib Republicans, not arguing with any of our points, claiming to be in favor of the second amendment while arguing against the second amendment, etc.

You then proceed to post a raving attack based on a bizarre strawman which bears no actual resemblance to me, unless I age ten years, move back home, drop out of law school and gain 70 lbs.

You haven't made a single legitimate argument, your only reason for supporting the second amendment is the completely absurd, childish fact that it's in the constitution. You behaved like a pissant pretty much from the moment you started talking to me, and haven't bothered arguing with any point I've made, preferring instead to argue with a strawman libertarian that bears no similarity to reality.

Keep on keeping on, knucklehead.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Here's what you do Eric...

You live with it. You accept the fact that living in a state of liberty has a price and doesn't mean you live in utopia. Bad people exist and will do bad things. You can NEVER prevent it. You punish such behavior and move on.

There is one thing, of which I'm certain. The answer is NOT making yourself less free in futile attempts to prevent the unpreventable.

[sloopyinca]

Yes. Absolutely, we should arm kindergarten teachers, and janitors, and schoolchildren, and goats, and turtles...yes that will solve everything..."because they will embrace a paraniod gun culture just like I have"

Nobody her is proposing that we arm them. What many of us are saying is the curtailment of their 2A Right to arm themselves prevents them from possibly stopping incidents like this.

[Jordan]

Strawmanning all libertarians is what reasonable people do, huh?

[Shmurphy]

Well, you don't see that because we as libertarians aren't the type to jump onto red herrings.

[DesigNate]

You wanna know why you get shit on Eric? Cause you say retarded stuff like "Where the fuck are the reasonable Libertarians...".

Grow up dude. Multiple posters have answered your questions, and your attacks, in a reasoned and literate manner and you've chosen to ignore them every single time. T O N Y and shrike do the same damn thing. It makes you a troll.

[You gotta be kidding me]

gun grabbers?
The only people grabbing the guns are the fetishists who think having an enormous gun-porn collection makes them something more than the dickless losers that they are. Living out some basement-dwelling fantasy where King George III is going to come take away their property.

[Brutus]

Feel better?

[Vapourwear]

I know I said I was going to ignore you, but that shit's funny, right there. I don't care who you are.

You deserve, like, a medal for trollery, or something.

[You gotta be kidding me]

But it is the gunz.
Just because you dickless losers won't admit it doesn't mean it isn't the guns.

[sloopyinca]

Forks make people fat.

Cars are the cause of drunk driving deaths.

Etc. Etc.

[Libertymike]

Marriage makes people (especially wives) fat.

[Monty Crisco]

Seems YGTBKM never seems to address this argument.... hmmm, I wonder why?

[nicole]

Xpost from earlier thread: Where on the H&R-calibrated meanness scale from 1 to 10 does it fall that, while I do feel sorry for the victims and their families, my overwhelming emotion right now is just fury that 99.9% of the people I know outside this board are right now going nuts about EVIL HANDGUNS AND GUN CONTROL AND CHILDRENZ?

So fucking depressing.

As to who did it, ZeroHedge is passing on reports of a 20-year-old from NJ, which would imply either illegal or highly regulated guns were involved.

[R C Dean]

On the H&R meanness scale, being angry because some tragedy will inevitably be abused for the benefit of the Total State doesn't even twitch the needle.

[nicole]

It's less being angry that the tragedy will actually lead to more statism, more being angry that I feel like almost everyone I know is evil.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Almost everyone you know is evil. "Normal" people hold some really fucked up beliefs.

[nicole]

I know. Fortunately they don't get brought up most of the time.

[MJGreen]

Considering what happened today, I'd leave the label evil to people like the shooter. Your acquaintances are idiots and, perhaps, assholes. But we need some word for the kind of person that could look kindergarteners in the eye and shoot them dead.

[Libertymike]

Not according to John and Tarran.

[tarran]

Oh, Libertymike, I guess reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Nicole is fretting that people will think her evil for fearing an assault on liberty that will inevitably be mounted using this as its rallying cry.

That's not what you were doing. Rather you were trying to tie the massacre to Obama's murderous rampages which
a) has nothing to do with the matter at hand
b) emotionally drive the very Obama supporters who are critical to not support this assault on liberty that nicole fears into uncritically supporting it to defend their master.
c) shows an utter lack of social graces.

In short, you are on of those assholes who likes to shit on things under the assumption that something isn't good unless it's got your shit all over it.

And John and I called you on it.

It's not your political views that are disgusting. It's that they are communicated by rhetorically shitting.

[Libertymike]

Reading comnprehension?

(1) My post was a response to R C's post.

(2) If you haven't noticed, several people have called on you and John for going ad hominem on me.

(3) Did you read John's post to which I responded?

John's words, verbatim:

Killing kids is beyond even your typical homocide loser

Thus, by what logic was my response out of bounds?

[Cnk]

"And John and I called you on it."

No actually, you just brayed like fucking idiots and were wrong.

[Heroic Mulatto]

As I said before....it's awfully convenient that this happened after the courts struck down Illinois CW ban...

[Gray Ghost]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And just because something happens near the same time as another thing doesn't mean they're related. Besides, that sort of thing stopped being trendy to allege at about the same time Gillian Anderson's deal with the Devil expired.

Why can't these assholes (the shooter(s); I'm not calling you an asshole, HM.) just kill themselves if they're in this much pain? Why do they have to light up a classroom full of little children too?

And yeah, here come the gun control chants.

[Jgalt1975]

about the same time Gillian Anderson's deal with the Devil expired.

Wha-??

[Heroic Mulatto]

Why can't these assholes (the shooter(s); I'm not calling you an asshole, HM.) just kill themselves if they're in this much pain? Why do they have to light up a classroom full of little children too?

Unfortunately, some people react to pain by striking out at the nearest thing, like a cornered animal.

[Not an Economist]

My guess theses mass shooters who end up killing themselves are not just depressed, but angry as well. And they end up trying take their anger out on someone (or something) before they kill themself. I think they have a somewhat narcissitic belief their problems are not their fault so someone must pay.

[Cnk]

So, answer this please, do you actually believe that, or are you trolling?

Because you seem to like to hang it out there, but don't want to commit to it.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Tongue-in-cheek.

[WTF]

And if he was from NJ, it is a near certainty he did not have a CCW permit, and would be unlikely to jump through all the NJ hoops to get guns legally for this, or all the hoop-jumping restrictions didn't matter. So if true I guess the gun control idiots would need to admit that gun control didn't work.

[niobiumstudio]

It's not that hard to get guns in NJ - it just takes a long, long time and is expensive. First you have to get the Firarms Purchase ID Card (which takes up to 60 days and a background check/prints) and when you get that, you can apply for a pistol purchase permit good for a single pistol (which takes another 60 days). Total cost is around $250 depending on your town and 4 months for a pistol. That, and there are regulations on magazine size. My family went through it when I was younger, but didn't get the pistol permit, just the firearms card so I could have a pellet gun for Christmas when I was kid. Yes, that's right you need the same permit for a BB/Pellet gun (that I can walk into Dick's here in NC and buy for $30's without showing any ID) as real rifle.

[WTF]

I know, I have a NJ Firearms ID card, and it is obnoxious to go through the fingerprinting and background check bullshit. And getting a CCW in NJ is impossible for ordinary citizens.

[niobiumstudio]

Move away ASAP. Now that Sandy fucked up the only thing I really missed about NJ, there is absolutely nothing in NJ worth living there for.

[WTF]

If I could make the same money in a better state, I certainly would move. And anyway, most of the Jersey Shore (with a few exceptions) will be fine come summer time.

[tarran]

This is going to be a horrible story; you just don't go so wrong that you start gunning down kids without giving some signs before hand. Of course, there are millions of people who give similar signs who aren't going to kill kids, so the people who saw the signs and did nothing are going to be villified, possibly unjustly.

Then you have the actual incident... how many teachers died in a hopeless attempt to stop the massacre? How many kids are going to be fucked up with survivor's guilt?

Last but not least, where did the guy get his firearm? That's another person who is going to face villification, deserved or undeserved.

What a horrible charlie-foxtrot.

[Translucent Chum]

I'm no shrink, but to me there is a huge difference between a HS or college age person shooting same age classmates. For an adult to slaughter little kids face to face in cold blood; having a hard time wrapping my head around it.

[Gray Ghost]

Patrick Purdy's the only one in the U.S. I can remember at the moment. I'm sure there've been others.

I do remember one where the perps were, IIRC, 12 and 11 years old, who set off fire alarms at their school, hid in the nearby woods with rifles, and turned the students' rally area into a killing ground. Like some malignant, putrid form of Ender Wiggin.

[Brutus]

As a father of four, it literally turns my stomach.

There's no corner of Hell hot enough...

[Proprietist]

Yes, I'm thinking he must have been either extremely mentally ill or on some crazy drugs, because I simply can't how any human being could kill five year olds indiscriminately in cold blood no matter how angry they are about whatever triggered the shooting.

[Christina]

Kindergarteners! WHAT THE FUCK!?

Goddamn, I hate these mass-murder rampages.

[tarran]

You have to be a pretty bad loser to decide that unarmed 5 year olds are going to pay for your problems with their lives.

[BakedPenguin]

I think it will turn out this person won't be considered sane by most people. I can't imagine the motivation.

[BakedPenguin]

Or what he said.

[Zeb]

Yeah, sometimes people just do crazy shit. Like that Batman guy. And some people decide that they are evil and do evil things. Or any number of other bizarre delusions.

[Jam]

this school shit will never end. just another reason to abolish the schools. but they will respond by turning it into a more fortified prison.

[deified]

This fucking sucks and I do not approve.

[Pro Libertate]

Dear Lord.

[Lyle]

this

[Ted S.]

I thought we were all atheists here.

[fish]

You would be wrong.

[Zeb]

Maybe he is addressing a temporal lord and not YHVH.

[MP]

There was an episode of Criminal Minds the other week, a show which plays fast and loose with the reality of homicidal maniacs, which two 20 somethings kidnapped a busload of high schoolers in order to recreate a video game.

Typical extrapolation of sensationalist fears.

But yet...

There really does have to be some sort of cultural rot for this type of shit to happen. Callous murder of kindergarteners and a subsequent suicide? For what? That's completely insane.

[Rasilio]

"There really does have to be some sort of cultural rot for this type of shit to happen"

Bullshit.

Go read some actual history.

People used to take their kids to watch "criminals" (typically political enemies of the local lord) be drawn and quartered as a form of entertainment. The only thing abnormal about atrocities like this is that we actually view them as atrocities and not business as usual now.

[Sy]

Exactly.

[Michael Ejercito]

Maybe wer should stop viewing them as atrocities.

Our culture is becoming pussified.

[Brett L]

For all the shit we give teachers, the ones at this elementary appear to have done a good job taking some initiative to get their charges to safe places.

[tarran]

An elementary school teacher has to be able to take charge and make good decisions... otherwise the classroom tends to descend quickly into Lord of the Flies territory.

[Brett L]

Yeah. Given the utter shit sandwich that happened at Va Tech, it still impressed me that multiple teachers thought to get their kids away from the doors and windows and lock the doors. We'll see when it all comes out, but I try to find nice things to say about people who act like decent human beings during tragedies like this.

[tarran]

If I were an elementary school teacher this would be my nightmare.

Let's face it: in a suburban environment, generally it's not a prudent idea for a first grade teacher to be armed; 99.999% chance if the gun is fired, it will be an accidental shooting involving a kid getting hold of it.

So when one of these bastards shows up, you... are... fucked.

[John]

You are totally fucked. You might as well die going after him trying to defend the kids. Better to die a heroes death than live the rest of your life with the guilt of not at least trying to do something no matter how futile.

[NoVAHockey]

"You might as well die going after him trying to defend the kids."

That's the realization that I've come to. Fight back to the extent possible and failing that, become the biggest target and make sure he spends as many rounds as possible on me and not my wife or son. Like, Liviu Librescu, the VA tech teacher who used his body to barricade the door.

[tarran]

That was one lesson I learned from my obsessive Heinlein reading as a young impressionable lad. Sometimes there's nothing for it but to die a man (no patriachy).

[John]

Yeah. You are never getting over something like that. If you do nothing, you will never live a happy day in your life again even if you do survive. So you might as well go out fighting. There are worse fates than a noble death.

[LTC(ret) John]

What did Shakespeare say about coward dying a thousand deaths? That applies, yes.

[db]

God, this is horrible. What kind of a monster?

[Heroic Mulatto]

And just to piss off Clown Schulz,

Who wants to take bets that the American "Beslan" has finally happened?

And if it

[Heroic Mulatto]

And if it did...just how quickly will the media throw this event down the memory hole?

[John]

I want to hear who did this. Even losers like the guy in Colorado don't kill first graders. This is something very very odd.

[nicole]

CBS News: "Law enforcement sources told Miller that preliminary and unconfirmed information indicates that the gunman was the father of a student. Officials also told Miller that the suspect is around 20 years old who apparently drove to the school from New Jersey."

[John]

He is 20 and has a kid in school? He must have had him or her when he was 14. WTF?

[nicole]

That's not exactly unheard of, in NJ or CT. But "around 20" and a kindergartener could mean he got someone pregnant anywhere from age 13 to 18, pretty much.

[Translucent Chum]

WTF is right. 20 with a five-six year old. FFS.

[db]

Reports are available claiming the 20-year old dather of one od the children was the shooter. Reports also are that he is from New Jersey but are unclear if he was living there or CT.

[db]

They are reporting now (reuters) that the shooted was aged 24 and had four weapons and a bulletproof vest.

[Gray Ghost]

And this bullet proof vest will be just like the one in Oregon or in Colorado, odds are. I was wondering when the rifles and/or shotgun were going to show up---hard to do quickly that much damage with just the Glock and Sig CNN was quoting him as having earlier.

If his beef was with the school or a teacher within that school, WTF did he take it out on the class full of kids? Fuck. Stick this piece of filth in the boiling blood up to his hairline, like that asshole from V. Tech.

[db]

CBS now repprting one of the weapons was a .223 caliber rifle. I would guess an AR variant, which would be nigh impossible to obtain in NJ legally. Also, CT has a ban on semiauto rifles I think, so...

[WTF]

Actually, you can readily get ARs in NJ if you have a firearm ID.

[db]

I did not know that.

[SIV]

Colt makes Ar-15s in CT.

[db]

Yes, obviously. It's private possession that's banned, not manufacture. Note that I am making an assymption that CT bans semi autos because they ban select fire weapons because of their semiauto capability. It' lawful to own a (properly registered) machinegun in CT but only if it is disabled from operating semiautomatically.

[Gray Ghost]

FN makes lots of stuff at Herstal. How easy is it for your ordinary average Belgian to get some of it?

That said, from Googling around, it seems to be that certain AR-15s are illegal, but owning one that complies with CT's gun laws isn't. They don't have a high-cap ban, from what I can tell (though my guess is that'll be one of the first thing that changes after this). Haven't parsed the relevant CT statutes, and don't really have time to do so today, so caveat emptor. Doesn't CT have a 21 and over rule for firearms purchases, or is that just for handguns?

[niobiumstudio]

You can get an AR-15 in NJ, but they have their own version of the AWB - no bayonet lug, fixed stock, and 10rd magazine. It isn't like cali where you need the internal magazine and have to use the takedown pin to load the damn thing.

[Loki]

If his beef was with the school or a teacher within that school, WTF did he take it out on the class full of kids?

Maybe his kid was being bullied/ made fun of by the rest of the class and the teacher wasn't willing/ able to do anything about it? No excuse for this shit, of course. Most rational people would get their kid out of that school.

[Pro Libertate]

Please do not fucking plaster this evil fuck's face everywhere.

[John]

^^THIS^^

[deified]

Pro L makes a typically wise comment.

[db]

It would be wise, but very unlikely, for the media to heed this advice.

[BakedPenguin]

Perhaps Reason might listen, though.

[Zeb]

Does it really matter?

Maybe I have too much morbid curiosity, but I want to know more about this person. And even if he weren't dead, I don't give a fuck what he wanted to happen. I want to know more.

[Pro Libertate]

I think some of these killings are motivated by a desire to be in the spotlight. Deny them that, at least.

And no, I'm not asking the government to intervene.

[sloopyinca]

I'm with Zeb on this one. I'd like to know what caused this rather than trying to ignore it or push it from view. Of course, I'd like it to lead to more people being able to carry in public places, but I know that won't happen.

[RBS]

I'm sure many of us would like to know what was going on in this guy's life that he decided to kill a bunch of children.

[Monty Crisco]

No one will ever know that. There is no reason. It is unknowable in any sort of objective way. It can only be taken as a historical fact at this point, but trying to "understand" some sort of "motive" for this horror is like trying to understand why a certain comet comes closer to earth than a certain asteroid... it just does and no one knows why.

[a better weapon]

They'll find the most grizzly and scariest picture of him available as if this is a man to be scared of. He was a fucking coward and should be treated as such.

[NoVAHockey]

Jesus.

Law enforcement sources told CBS News senior correspondent John Miller that preliminary and unconfirmed information indicates that the shooter was the father of a student.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-20.....-shooting/

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a gun show is a safer place than an elementary school.

[sarcasmic]

Another massacre in a gun free zone.

[John]

Yeah. He sure didn't have to worry about someone stopping him now did he?

[alan_s]

Somehow, I don't think that people like this are really particularly worried about that. Would be nice though if someone had the ability to stop him.

[Fatty Bolger]

My youngest's elementary school has a "gun free zone" sign on the front door. I always hate seeing that - I wish they wouldn't advertise the fact.

[sarcasmic]

I thought someone intent on murder would see the "gun free zone" sign and go home, not wanting to violate the ordinance against guns on school grounds.

Guess I was wrong.

[Monty Crisco]

Absolutely hilarious in your sarcasmicismness, but the sad part is that liberals actually DON'T get that...

[R C Dean]

Saw a commentary pointing out that there were no mass school shootings before the Clinton Gun-Free School Zone act.

Fucking unintended consequences. How do they work?

[Gray Ghost]

The commentary is incorrect, RC. Patrick Purdy, the guy I mentioned upthread who lit up a schoolyard in Stockton CA, killed his 5 kids in January 1989. The Act was passed at the end of 1990, probably in large measure because of that vile piece of shit.

There have seemed to be a whole lot more of the fucking things since its passage though. I wondered how a 1980's rural high school, where a good chunk of the class had guns (rifles/shotguns) in their cars, would fare during a "commando-spree" shooting?

[Killazontherun]

Anything lunar going on?

22 children slashed by knife-wielding adult at elementary school in China...

http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-.....2318.story

[fish]

7 days until the end of the world!?

[Killazontherun]

Oh, yeah, I kind of dismissed that hysteria out of hand.

[A Mathematician]

same thing just happened in china, but with knives: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/worl.....a-20723910

[Mike M.]

Guys like this make me wish that Hell was real.

[Translucent Chum]

Amen.

[Translucent Chum]

Sorry for the mirth. Bad way of dealing with something as awful as this. I have an eight and nine year old and am trying to figure out how'd I'd react if this happened at their school.

[Heroic Mulatto]

I have an eight and nine year old and am trying to figure out how'd I'd react if this happened at their school.

First step. Approach the administration and ask how they would deal with an event like this. Inquire as to their emergency plans. How would they evacuate? What are they procedures for a sit-in-place? How often does the staff have training in this procedures? How often do they do practice drills with the kids? How many School Resource Officers are present at the school at any given time? What is their procedure in contacting the parents?

[Heroic Mulatto]

Second step. Talk to your kids about what they should do. My daughter carries an EDC kit, just like daddy. She carries QuickClot in her backpack and knows how to use it on herself, or to inform an adult on how to use it.

[NoVAHockey]

what else is in your kit? it's been on my to do list, but i never quite get to it.

[Heroic Mulatto]

My kit or my daughters?

[NoVAHockey]

just the kit.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Well, my kid also has i.d. info in her kit with pictures of me and her mom. Nitrile gloves for touching icky stuff, a pealess whistle, a glow stick, a kid-sized p-95 face mask and antiseptic wipes.

My kit has a more advanced QuickClot trauma kit, a non-incendiary flash light (instead of the glowstick), gloves, a fuller first-aid kit with bandages, a SAM splint, etc. a p-51 can opener, adult-sized p-99 face mask, a mini-crowbar, leather-palm fingerless gloves, magnesium fire starter, Swiss army knife, Leatherman Crunch multi-tool, EMT shears, waterproof matches in waterproof case with flint on the bottom, a mini-screwdriver set, and topographic maps of the area (shrunk down to a smaller size to be read with the magnifier on my Silva compass).

Depending on your skillset and needs, you may need more or less. I work only 10-min walk away from house, for example, so I can get to my other stuff very quickly.

[fish]

She carries QuickClot in her backpack and knows how to use it on herself, or to inform an adult on how to use it.

Good and Good! I'm going to look into this!

[Fatty Bolger]

Wow, that's a really good idea. It says "prescription," can anybody buy it, and how long does it last? Would be great to have it in the car, too.

[niobiumstudio]

Anyone can buy quick-clot at almost any sporting goods store. It's pretty expensive (mine was $29 for a 4oz pouch at Dicks), but worth it should shit go down like this.

[Heroic Mulatto]

I don't know how long QuickClot and Celox last, but I do know they have a expiriation date.

Also, make sure you buy the gauze and not the powder form.

[Translucent Chum]

Can you elaborate more on the EDC kit? What's in it, how do you carry, etc. Any other good links would be appreciated.

[Gray Ghost]

A second on the request, HM. I too, have been lax about compiling a first aid kit for the car and home, and would like to know what to include and what to skip. And preferably one that you don't need to be a paramedic or MD to get the stuff to fill it.

I remember Outdoor Life doing a similar article 30 years or so ago, and the MD they interviewed for what he carried in his backwoods bag had every type of pharmaceutical, antibiotic and painkiller known to man. Neat, but not very useful.

[Heroic Mulatto]

@ Gray Ghost

The key to constructing a first aid kit is knowing what to do with the stuff you pack. For example, a surgical kit might be very useful to Groovus, but of no use to me. Where I'm coming from is a life-long Boy Scouting geek with Red Cross first-aid training, with a spouse learning to be a Nursing Assistant.

In my car/home kit, I have various bandages, trauma pads, splints and slings. Also, antiseptics, like benzalkonium chloride wipes, rubbing alcohol, hydrogen peroxide (for debriding), and iodine. For burns, I have burn gel with lidocaine, which can be used for bug bites in a pinch. I also carry aspirin in powder form. Also for drugs, you should have pepto-bismo, and electrolyte powder for diarrhea and dehydration. (Also, you should have some way of making clean water...but that's a different kit and discussion). I'm sure I have more stuff, but I can't think of it right now.

I'd also have some forceps to remove stuff like splinters, and if you know what to do with it a surgical stapler.

[Heroic Mulatto]

My daughter carries her kit in a ziplock bag in her iCarly backpack. I carry my kit in a CivilianLabs Covert-Escape pack. However, if I had to buy a pack again, I'd go for a Maxpedition EDC Pocket Organizer or even one of their bigger ones.

[nicole]

My daughter carries her kit in a ziplock bag in her iCarly backpack.

OT: Awwwwww

(Actually not OT at all, since this is a kid-loving thread.)

[Jordan]

I think you just summoned pedobot.

[NoVAHockey]

it is and there are some families who are there right now as we speak.

[hamilton]

You got that right. I would be... I would be lost if it were any of mine. Those poor parents. My heart weeps.

[sticks]

I got nothing. Shit sucks.

[AlmightyJB]

I'm with you. Sickening.

[Tim]

Lord have mercy.

[Lyle]

this

[Rotwang]

A bunch of young children are dead, and some people here are already clutching their steel penises and shouting 'fascism!'

You have no hearts. What you have is a steel penis that can kill.

[Heroic Mulatto]

and some people here are already clutching their steel penises and shouting 'fascism!'

Many of those people would be Japanese

[tarran]

I'm sorry, how is your lack of reading comprehension and your projection about your fears of sexual inadequacy our problem?

[R C Dean]

Rotwang, we are merely commenting on the utter depravity of the political opportunists who are already using this tragedy to advance their political agendas.

Shouldn't your ire be directed at them? Or are you one of the "no enemies on the left" types?

[WTF]

A bunch of young children are dead, and some people trolls here are already clutching their steel penises pearls and shouting 'fascism! gun control!'

You have no hearts brains or moral compass. What you have is a steel penis that can kill mindless blob of feelings devoid of any logic or reality.

[Knutsack]

Right. And how fast did some people want to start the castrations? Probably before it was even over.

[Cnk]

"What you have is a steel penis that can kill."

Yes, my first lover and I learned that the hard way...

[NoVAHockey]

AP reporting 27 dead -- 18 children.

http://www.courant.com/news/br.....9911.story

[Suthenboy]

I took a break from cleaning out the garage and thought I would check in here, see what is going on.

I feel sick.

[sticks]

I feel sick

We all do.

[Citizen Nothing]

Yeah -- I've got twins in first grade. When the first reports came in of a school shooting, I didn't think much of it.
But, my god, 18 kindergarteners? Even though I know, intellectually, that my kids are in far more danger from a school bus crash than from a random shooting, it's still very, very disturbing as a parent to hear of something like this. I can imagine a lot of parents just going batshit insane with terror now. And yes -- it's going to be blamed on guns.

[R C Dean]

My rather vague plans to pick up a more practical carry gun just crystallized. The Usual Suspects are already baying for blood, this soulless and depraved administration has started to let its gun control mask slip, and I do believe this will be another crisis that is too good to waste.

[Restoras]

I agree RC. This will be the catalyst that seriously erodes our 2A rights.

[Dr. Frankenstein]

CN I hear you. I've got twins in first grade as well. Just makes me sick. If the guy arrested was involved as well visions of Jack Ruby would be entertained if I was one of the parents.

[A Serious Man]

27 dead, 18 of the kids with the shooter reportedly dead inside the classroom. Police are saying they feel the threat has ended.

This just exceeds my comprehension. No one human could stomach murdering children.

[John]

Lots of humans can and have. We are a sick fallen species.

[Citizen Nothing]

A sick fallen species? Speak for your own species. Though mine does have a lot of sick, twisted individuals, admittedly. Fortunately they are a tiny minority.

[John]

I have a few billion with a b bodies that says they are more than a tiny minority. I bet you more than 18 kids were murdered in the various wars in Africa today. Killing kids is just how the human race rolls.

[Cnk]

It was one fucking guy asshole.

But you did let YOUR mask slip a little, and said more about yourself than you realize.

[A Serious Man]

People have a horrifying capacity to commit evil, that's all I can really say.

[Citizen Nothing]

Some people have a horrifying capacity to commit evil.
Or, humanity doesn't kill humans, humans do.

[A Serious Man]

I disagree, I think history has shown that perfectly "normal" people can be driven to do some pretty fucked up things under certain circumstances.

[John]

^^THIS^^ Lots of otherwise very nice and reasonable people were Nazis and such.

[Citizen Nothing]

So you're saying that everyone would perpetrate some great evil, given the right circumstances?

[John]

Not everyone CN. Just a lot of people. And the proof of that is places like Nazi Germany and the USSR.

[Citizen Nothing]

So the individual isn't to blame. It's just human nature. I see.

[John]

Can't it be both? Can't the individual choices of millions tell you something about human nature?

[Citizen Nothing]

But a lot of people wouldn't and didn't, John. Saying that nice and normal people were happy Nazis bends the definition of "nice" if not "normal." So maybe the majority of people ARE capable of something like this, but the fact that a sizable minority are not would indicate that the problem lies not with the species, but with the particular individuals.

[WTF]

But a lot of people wouldn't and didn't, John. Saying that nice and normal people were happy Nazis bends the definition of "nice" if not "normal."

I remind you of the otherwise nice, normal people in the Milgram Experiment.

[Citizen Nothing]

I have always taken Milgram with a grain of salt.

[WTF]

I have always taken Milgram with a grain of salt.

Agree, for the most part. But I have also seen plenty of evidence of people willing to do stupid/bad things in response to following perceived authority.

[Whahappan?]

If I'm not mistaken, the Milgram experiment has been duplicated in various forms multiple times with similar results.

[A Serious Man]

But a lot of people wouldn't and didn't, John. Saying that nice and normal people were happy Nazis bends the definition of "nice" if not "normal."

Well I don't think you had to be shoving the Jews into the camps to be responsible for the Holocaust. Just keeping your head down and pretending not to see anything made you culpable, and that described the large majority of Germans.

It's easy to be outraged at this when it isn't being sanctioned by the state, but, and I hate to point this out, the US does this to children in other countries with drones and most people in the media don't give a shit or actively support it. Again, this makes me very uneasy about what kind of world we live in.

[A Serious Man]

Not everyone, just a lot of people we'd consider normal or average.

Some people have a predilection towards violence and savagery, and some have a predilection towards being moral and kind beyond average. It's the people that fall in between that trouble me.

[Almanian.]

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men.

The fact that NAZIGERMANYZOMG! actually happened is horrifying re: what it says about "normal" people's propensity to accept monstrous behavior given the right conditions.

See also most of recorded history. I don't find the times of peace as "the norm" - it seems "the norm" is ongoing savagery and brutality.

That suggests to me that there's SOMETHING inherent in ENOUGH people that we're a pretty fucked up species that needs to be watched. Peace is a fleeting aberration.

Goddamn, people suck.

[Citizen Nothing]

Goddamn, people suck.

Well, then I guess they shouldn't be allowed to own guns.

[Almanian.]

Yeah, genius, Citizen - suck---
shouldn't have guns. That's what I said.

[Bill Dalasio]

That's idiotic. A much more rational response would be to deny them the authority to disarm me. It takes a lot more faith in humanity to give someone power over you than it does to leave them the hell alone.

[EDG reppin' LBC]

See also most of recorded history. I don't find the times of peace as "the norm" - it seems "the norm" is ongoing savagery and brutality.

That's a cynical outlook. Recorded history is the history of "great men doing great things". Which usually boils to down to men acting savagely and brutally. But actual history, which has unfolded billions of times daily for ten millennia is actually peaceful. It isn't recorded because it is also quite mundane. A history of this week would include Suthenboy planting and harvesting timber, Lord Hummungus building a tube amplifier, Groovus performing a cervical exam, and A Serious Man studying for finals. This is the true history of the world. The sum total of violence that has occured in history is a tiny fraction of the daily decency and peacefulness that occurs. Don't lose that perspective.

[Bill Dalasio]

Sorry to have to break this to you, EDG reppin' LBC, but the world you describe has only existed, anywhere, for the last hundred years or so. And that world has only remotely resembled it for the last 200-300 years. For a brief flash at the end of the timeline. By and large, the norm was the vast majority of humanity scraping a bare subsistence out of the mud, with a thug with a whip and a sword ready to plunder whatever he could grasp of that subsistence. And the thugs living in constant terror that the thug next door would take his slaves at the point of a sword. Savagery and brutality are far more the default than reason and civilized coexistence.

[Restoras]

A Serious Man is, unfortunately, exactly right. Even a cursory knowledge of human history reveals this.

Sometimes the circumstances aren't even that unusual.

[generic Brand]

All humans are capable of evil, just like they are capable of good. To say that "many people" are incapable of committing this level of evil is to deny the very free choice that we as libertarians claim all humans possess.

You do not have to believe in the sin element of humanity to realize that anybody is capable of evil. Fortunately, many people DO make "good" choices and do not murder 18 children in a classroom.

[Citizen Nothing]

To say that "many people" are incapable of committing this level of evil is to deny the very free choice that we as libertarians claim all humans possess.

I don't follow the logic of this statement.

[generic Brand]

On the one hand, you say that some people may be capable of such an atrocity, implying that many people are not capable.

But if all humans possess free will, there is always the possibility of them committing such an evil. As I said at the end, fortunately many people choose not to do evil. But you cannot state that most of humanity is incapable of evil.

Having the capacity to do evil is not the same as doing evil.

[Citizen Nothing]

Jesus. I suppose, for the literal minded, I should have said that many people would never choose to do something so evil, whatever the circumstances. Sure, if there were a button for a bomb that could destroy the world, any human being (with fingers -- or toes, for that matter) could physical press the button. But not many would.

[Citizen Nothing]

physically

[Almanian.]

I see you're playing the part of Tulpa/Chad today and arguing to argue. Thanks for letting us know.

[Citizen Nothing]

No, you goof. I'm playing the role of the guy who says that despite the actions of isolated individuals, the human race is not some irredeemable sinkhole of depravity.

[Citizen Nothing]

I mean, isn't it the very mind set of the gun-grabbers that anyone could do what this sick bastard did, and therefore no one should have guns? (Except for the cops, who are, like, you know, heroes.)

[Citizen Nothing]

I mean, when you say "People suck," as opposed to "persons suck," or more colloquially, "some people suck" you seem to be falling directly into the collectivist trap.

[Michael Ejercito]

I mean, isn't it the very mind set of the gun-grabbers that anyone could do what this sick bastard did, and therefore no one should have guns? (Except for the cops, who are, like, you know, heroes.)

Cops should be disarmed first.

[Suthenboy]

I am reading y'alls comments and thinking....human nature is a reflection of the world we live in. However, we have clawed our way up from world-wide savagery and in some places most people live very civilized lives.

When I think about the difference between the places that are universally savage ( mid-east, central asia, eetc) and the ones that arent ( north america, europe, parts of east asia and pacific ) the biggest difference is culture and philosophy.

When I think about the individuals in civilized areas that are most likely to behave savagely the biggest difference between them and the non-savage individuals seems to be outlook, or personal philosophy.

[Libertymike]

The biggest difference in the individuals between those who are most likely to behave savagely and those who are most not likely to behave savagely is the imprimatur of Caesar.

In the last 150 years, conservatively, upwards of a billion people have been killed by or in the name of the state.

[Suthenboy]

For some reason I havent been able to post since I put this up but it was not complete.

I was going to add that human nature allows for the best and the worst, with personal philosophy being the most important determining factor.

The most civilized people I know are mostly atheist, and firm beleivers in self ownership. Firm Libertarians.

I pulled all that outta my ass in 2 minutes so if you want to stomp all over it do it with a soft shoe.

[Zeb]

I certainly can't comprehend the motivation, but I pretty much figure that people will do everything that it is possible to do at some point.

[db]

CBS reports a second man was found behind the school "wearing a blck jacket and camo pants" and arrested, but proclaimed his innocence to parents as he was being led away by police.

[John]

That guy is either an accomplice and needs to be shot or the most unlikely bastard in the world. I just put on my duck hunting gear and went for a walk. Honest. Of all the days.

[Francisco d Anconia]

You obviously don't live in a flyover state.

[tarran]

John's an okie. I think he typed unlikely when he meant unlucky.

[John]

Yes Tarran. My bad typing.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Ah. John strikes again.

[John]

I have. And I don't think the guy wearing camouflage is odd at all. But I guarantee you the police in Connecticut did. That why I said the guy was either an accomplice or the unluckiest bastard in the world. Talk about wrong place at the wrong time.

[Gray Ghost]

Dude's lucky to be alive or untased, frankly.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Folks in Texas don't wear camo? Really, John? Here in somewhat rural-N.H. I can go down to the convenience store or gas station and I'm certain I'll see at least one person wearing camo pants or a vest. BDU pants are comfy and rugged. And as I mentioned before, it's fashionable in some circles.

[John]

My bad typing. If he is not an accomplice what a fucking unlucky day for that poor bastard.

[Not an Economist]

My guess, bad luck. Plenty of people wear camo pants. Black jackets are not uncommon either.

[a better weapon]

I've got my antennae up on that one. This had lone-wolf written all over it. It'll be interesting to find out if he was involved.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Because camouflage just means you're up to something. It's not like it's popular fashion among young folks.

[Greg]

I'm wearing camouflage pajama pants right now. No one had better get in my way going to bed either.

[Suthenboy]

What the fuck is going on here? Two guys attack an elementary school and go after kindergarteners?

This is very odd.

[Loki]

Just when I thought my faith in humanity couldn't go any lower.

Congratulations, Connecticut elementary school shooter, and congratulations as well to all the knee jerk gun grabbing shitheads who couldn't even wait for the bodies to become room temperature before hopping on your political hobby horses, you've all made me hate humanity even more than I ever thought possible.

Seriously, at this point I'm actually hoping for an apocalypse next Friday. Just start this shit over from scratch.

[John]

Please God let the shooter be anyone but a dreaded white male. If he is, the fucking media may actually have orgasms of joy on the air.

[SIV]

Reports are one of the shooter's parents was found dead at his home in NJ.

[Hyperion]

Pretty sure the guy is a white male. Male for sure, probably white.

[Joe M]

It's Connecticut. He's almost certainly white.

[nicole]

I see you do not know CT very well.

[Mike M.]

Does it really matter? Race is almost never a factor in these kinds of horrible incidents.

[Loki]

If it's a white male I'm sure the media will make every attempt to characterize him as some kind of right wing tea-bagger nutjob. Just like they did with Laughner and Holmes.

[Libertymike]

How many five and six year olds do you want to die in the apocalypse for which you pine?

[generic Brand]

Lol.

[Almanian.]

I'm going to guess all of them. Hence "apocalypse".

[Loki]

How long have you been unable to understand sarcasm?

[Libertymike]

And how long have you been unable to recognize a return volley in kind?

[Death Rock and Skull]

Fuck.

[Almanian.]

Holy fuck! Just hearing this on the radio. 20-27 - shit. Ugh - awful doesn't cover it. Prayers and condolences to the victims, their families and the community. May the shooter rot in hell for eternity.

[db]

According to CBS, at least one body has been found in the NJ home of the shooter.

[SIV]

Dad's guns? LEO family?

[SIV]

Mom's guns. She bought them for her troubled son.

[db]

Cite??

[db]

Found one stating the mother was the registered owner of all three firearms found at the site:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-20.....g-27-dead/

It notes that the Bushmaster rifle was found in the mother's car, which the son drove to the school, but that it evidently wasn't used in the massacre. So, assault weapons ban would not have affected this...

I'm still confused...I thought possession of semiautomatic rifles was illegal in CT. Maybe her rifle was grandfathered, or I'm incorrect in my reading of CT law.

[Knutsack]

Having and second-grader and a kid currently in kindergarten, I can't even imagine what parents are going through right now. Those kids get six years of life, then it's all over because of some absolute d-bag? There aren't even words to describe this guy.

I'm pretty sure if that same thing had happened to my kids, the rage inside of me would explode at some point...and it wouldn't be good.

It really makes me realize how important just saying goodbye is when the kids get on the school bus each morning.

[Hyperion]

It looks, at first glance, like this is some type of domestic dispute thing, maybe this guy got denied visitation rights to the kid or something and originally planned to go in there and take the kid by force and then just went nuts when things went awry.

But I just don't see why he would shoot kids? It really doesn't make sense. He had to be off his rocker to start with.

[John]

But nuts usually shoot the ex wife and maybe their own kids in domestic disputes. This would be a first if he shot other kids.

[Hyperion]

That's what I'm saying, I can't even grasp the motive behind shooting all these kids, it's insane.

[NoVAHockey]

I'm not a doc or anything close, but they taught me in EMT class the the most dangerous patients are the attempted/threatened suicides. Because once you've decided your life doesn't matter, it's not much of a jump to determine that nobody else does either.

That's why the cops are dispatched on those calls. and they're right. they're the creepiest most unsettling calls to run. way worse than trauma call.

[Groovus Maximus]

I'm not a doc or anything close, but they taught me in EMT class the the most dangerous patients are the attempted/threatened suicides. Because once you've decided your life doesn't matter, it's not much of a jump to determine that nobody else does either.

Correct. The unpredictable nature of someone who believes, for whatever reason in lieu of whatever etiology present, makes that type of patient exceptionally dangerous and requires proceeding with utmost caution and trepidation.

That's why the cops are dispatched on those calls. and they're right. they're the creepiest most unsettling calls to run. way worse than trauma call.

Also why kevlar is (or should be) standard issue for EMT's and Paramedics.

[nicole]

"CBS News is confirming that a second body has been found in the New Jersey home of the shooter."

[db]

I can't figuroue out if it means an additional body at the home or two bodies there.

[nicole]

Me neither

[Bingo]

Second implies a first already in the home, guessing it's either shoddy reporting or...

Wasn't there some wrestler who went nuts and killed his entire family? I wonder if this sicko killed his wife/gf and took it upon himself to off his kids as well.

Stories like this make me hate reading the news.

[John]

It would appear this is another Colorado type incident where some nut just blew a fuse and turned evil.

[Hyperion]

I think we will find it started out as a domestic dispute of some kind, the guy pissed at the family, x-wife whatever, and he was f'in nuts to start with and the combination of the 2 just set off a chain reaction of insanity, or like you said, a fuse blowing.

[Enough About Palin]

Yup. There was a guy in Minnesota a couple of months back who killed his three little girls just to piss off his ex-wife.

[KalkiDas]

Every day, it's just like the bottom is continually trying to be reached.

[SIV]

In the wake of the tragic school shooting in Newtown, Conn., that left more than two dozen people dead, including 18 children, CBS 2 has learned the school district had just installed a new safety policy designed to prevent situations such as what happened on Friday.

Well that didn't work very well.

[MP]

Those safety policies get complicated when the perp is a parent.

[Kaptious Kristen]

I don't think it will be a parent. I think it will be an alumni.

[John]

Policies also do a pretty poor job of stopping bullets.

[Loki]

Depends on how many pages the policy is.

[Hyperion]

And the fact that no one on the premises was armed and trained to respond to situations like this. What else is going to stop an armed mad man, except for someone else who is armed and ready to respond?

But of course that could never be a solution for our leftist community, only banning all guns(an impossible task) is the solution. Idiots.

[Zeb]

No policy is going to stop this, short of literally turning the school into a prison. An immediate armed response might. But might not.

Aside from allowing responsible adults to carry weapons at schools, I don't think that there should be any policy response to things like this. You can't make rules which will prevent crazy people from doing crazy things. And you can't make people completely secure without making them prisoners (if you even can do so then).

[Kaptious Kristen]

CNN gave a name, and I found his Facebook (from Newton, CT lives in Hoboken, NJ is why I think it's him). From his picture, the media is gonna have a field day with the whole "trenchcoat mafia" thing.

[Bingo]

Link before it's taken down!

[Kaptious Kristen]

I'm not really comfortable with that. The name CNN gave was "Ryan Lanza".

[Bingo]

Jesus, there's already like 3 facebook groups hating on him.

He just looks like some nerdy guy, I wonder if he's the shooter or just shares the name.

[Kaptious Kristen]

The geographical coincidences are too much for him not to be. CNN seems very confident in the name, as they keep saying it over and over, and there are police at his family's house serving a search warrant.

[R C Dean]

The geographical coincidences are too much for him not to be.

Be careful. I recall some of the mediatards hooking up the name of the Batman shooter with the wrong guy.

[Kaptious Kristen]

That's why I haven't posted a link, just repeated the name already given numerous times on CNN. But I'm pretty sure it's the same person.

[Bingo]

Yeah it's not... the guy who shows up with that name on Facebook is actually posting right now.

Poor bastard is enduring a shitstorm of hate.

[db]

CBS has picture and facebook profile up...do they have the right guy or are they about to get a big ol'lawsuit?

[Kaptious Kristen]

Dunno...my internet is squirrely and it took me forever to get CNN to play, so I haven't tuned in anywhere else. Is he wearing a newsboy hat and sunglasses?

[db]

Looks like a hipster. Scruffy beard and mustache, black old man hat, scarf, and heavy black rectangle gasses. Not sunglasses.

[Kaptious Kristen]

I see the pic now. That pic was in the "Photos" section of the Facebook profile I found, though his main profile pic was different.

[db]

Just refreshed; CBS has removed the FB info.

[a better weapon]

Updates say it isn't Ryan Lanza, but his younger brother.

[generic Brand]

Don't link it. Don't give him any more publicity than he's already getting, as RC said upthread.

[Kaptious Kristen]

Like, I said, I'm not comfortable linking to it so I won't. Anyone can do the leg work themselves. And I don't think he's the parent of a child at the school.

[db]

CBS now says he was the son of a teacher at the school who was also killed.

[Kaptious Kristen]

the Facebook page in question has been removed.

[Almanian.]

Ugh. My kids are all grown, so I worry about them a lot less. But when they were all in grade school...*shudder*.

I know some people are all kinds of fucked up, but how does your head get to a place where you head into a school and start shooting little kids? Jesus - this literally is making my stomach hurt thinking about it.

[Almanian.]

And I'm a fucked up person who doesn't find ANYTHING shocking or too horrible to joke about.

Till now - again, ugh. This is horrible.

[John]

I had the misfortune of having to go out with some UN people in Iraq to where they were excavating one of Saddam's mass graves. It was entirely composed of dead kids buried with their toys. Nothing is worse than a dead kid.

[Almanian.]

Nice touch, the toys.

I'm telling you...

*shaking my head*

[John]

I couldn't believe it either. Reasons why I always wanted to ring Joe from Lowell's neck whenever he got on here talked about how Saddam was not that bad.

[tarran]

My parents had a student (he took classes from both of them at METU at one point or another) who was Iraqi (this would be 1972-1976). He tried to get a job outside Iraq, but in the end couldn't find one and his parents ordered him to return.

After the Iran-Iraq war, we never heard from him again. No question in my mind that if he were alive, we'd have gotten a letter or something. I think of him from time to time; he used to play with me when I was a toddler. He was such a bright, sensitive kid. I don't think he had a chance in that hell-hole.

[tarran]

Oh, and one wrings necks. But I guess in Joe from Lowell's case, ringing bells would be OK too.

[Libertymike]

Really, have you no respect for H&R emeriti?

[tarran]

I'd probably become an alcoholic if I'd seen something like that up close. Just crawl into the bottle and never come out. ... the toys would be what pushed me over the edge, I think.

[Karl Hungus]

I had the misfortune of having to go out with some UN people in Iraq to where they were excavating one of Saddam's mass graves. It was entirely composed of dead kids buried with their toys. Nothing is worse than a dead kid.

That would fuck me up but good. My condolences to you for having to see that.

[Enough About Palin]

And yet he still has a massive war-boner.

*runs for cover and shouts* "I Keed! I Keed!

[John]

Perhaps it did me too. I will let others be the judge of such. 😉

[You gotta be kidding me]

This is the perfect time to ask: which one of you dickless crazies is still standing behind your mis-read Second Amendment? Let's see a show of hands.

[Joe M]

*raises hand*

[John]

Yeah because nothing helps in these situations like making sure everyone is unarmed.

Go fuck yourself loser.

[Hyperion]

Everyone on here is standing behind the 2nd Amendment. Go away now, you fool.

[generic Brand]

You're calling out the people who are pro-gun control, right? Because one nutjob mass murderer does not mean billions of other people should not have the right to defend themselves.

[Michael Ejercito]

Come on. We all know that governments disarm themselves when one of their own abuses guns.

[Almanian.]

Picking up a S&W 686 for Mrs. Almanian tomorrow. With her name engraved in it. For Christmas.

Will join the 20+ other guns I have.

None of which has ever been used to shoot a human being, strangely enough. Just lots of tasty, tasty game for dinner. And paper targets. And cans. And trees. And...

[R C Dean]

Count me in.

I fail to see how a mass shooting would make me more willing to disarm myself.

I also fail to see why we should run out and take guns away from all the people who didn't shoot anybody.

Picking up a S&W 686 for Mrs. Almanian tomorrow.

My wedding gift to Mrs. Dean was a Sig 9mm.

[Almanian.]

*fist bump*

[Ted S.]

[raises hand]

And yet it's the people who defend the 2nd amendment who are the ones the chattering classes accuse of "politicizing" shootings like this.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the perfect time to ask: which one of you dickless crazies is still standing behind your mis-read Second Amendment? Let's see a show of hands.

So a prohibition against murder isn't enough to stop murder, but a prohibition against gun ownership will stop murder?

Are you a trained idiot? Or just a talented amateur?

[Sevo]

You gotta be kidding me| 12.14.12 @ 2:26PM |#
"This is the perfect time to ask: which one of you dickless crazies is still standing behind your mis-read Second Amendment? Let's see a show of hands."

Wrong handle. Should be 'raging idiot', 'brain-dead asshole' or some such.

[Proprietist]

You're right. The Mexican and Chinese total gun control policies obviously work a lot better.

[Karl Hungus]

This is the perfect time to ask: which one of you dickless crazies is still standing behind your mis-read Second Amendment? Let's see a show of hands.

I know I need reading glasses, but considering how important an armed populace is to a free society, I'm pretty sure I haven't been misreading it. Thank you for oyur concern, though.

[Bill Dalasio]

Count my hand raised.

[mgd]

I'll raise my hand about standing behind the 2A, but not the parts about being dickless, crazy, or misreading anything.

Care to elucidate on that "mis-read" part?

[db]

I just returned from the restroom, where I was somewhat surprised to see in the mirror that I am literally red-faced with anger over this. That is very uncommon for me.

[sloopyinca]

One lone whacko with the method and means to pull off a mass killing isn't a new concept. It's happened too many times to count in the civilized world. This man is an outlier. 50 years ago he would have been an outlier, ditto 100, 200, 500 and 1000 years ago.

These events do not define a society, but the reaction to them often defines how free a society wishes to be. I truly fear what our society's reaction will be to this tragedy.

[Almanian.]

Yeah, I keep remembering the father of that girl - I think it was a girl - killed in the Gabby Giffords shooting (funnny we all remember her but not who got killed). Anyway, I remember thinking I wasn't sure I could be as cool as he was saying, in effect, "this event doesn't mean we should go do anything about guns - the person was the issue, not the gun." Respect...

[NoVAHockey]

I remember that. I couldn't believe it. it was on the today show or something similar.

[sarcasmic]

the reaction to them often defines how free a society wishes to be

Considering what people put up with to travel in the air, I'm thinking not very.

[RBS]

From what I can tell it amounts to "I don't care about your rights. How many children have to die before we do something..."

[sarcasmic]

It is sad how many people would gladly accept a totalitarian police state in the name of security.

After all, if you don't do anything wrong then you've got nothing to worry about. Right?

[fish]

It is sad how many people would gladly accept a totalitarian police state in the name of security.

No that's the part that's funny as hell! Those who support it wouldn't even have the benefit of the supposed "security"!

The sad part that would be for us!

[Libertymike]

You want sad?

I think that there are more and Clovers who would accept the illsuion of security just as long as they were assured that none of us could have liberty.

[fish]

And on this point we agree completely.

[NoVAHockey]

I was planning to take my little boy to see Santa tonight. now I just want to go home.

[R C Dean]

Go see Santa. What we need right now is more victories for normal life, and more happy kids.

[NoVAHockey]

good call. there's a Santa's workshop on the white house ellipse.

[Restoras]

I agree. It'll be a good memory for both of you.

[RBS]

Yeah, you will either get a cute picture of your boy happy to see Santa or a hilarious picture of your boy terrified by Santa (like the one my mom has of me).

[fish]

Thanks RBS! First smile I've cracked all morning!

[R C Dean]

Why is it that kids are invariably terrified of Santa the first time they meet him?

What do they know that we don't?

[Almanian.]

Give him a hug, for sure.

[SIV]

Reports are the shooter's mother was teaching the class he masacred.

Name of Lanza..greasy wop? I blame thin-crust pizza. Mmmmmm delicious thin crust pizza, not that nasty casserole they call pizza in Chicago.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmmmmm delicious thin crust pizza, not that nasty casserole they call pizza in Chicago.

SIV, I'm gonna be honest...I have so many feels for you right now.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Anyone else having squirrel problems?

[db]

Big time.

[tarran]

Yes! I lost an awesome comment! 🙁

[Ted S.]

That would be the first time. :-p

[Citizen Nothing]

That always happens to my awesome comments.

[fish]

Yeah!

[Kaptious Kristen]

Obama is about to give his two cents. *rolling eyes*

[tarran]

We would be lost without our God/Emperor to give us perspective.

[Cnk]

Fuck you John.

[Ted S.]

Let me be clear: there are people who say....

I'll let you fill in the rest of Obama's campaign platitudes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bush's fault!

[Kaptious Kristen]

MUTE!

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Obama said he was going to take whatever actions actions were necessary to prevent this in the future, "regardless of the political costs". Sounds like rights are about to get stomped on.

[a better weapon]

I almost hate to comment on something I could obviously never know for sure, but that seemed to be a pretty robotic reading of someone else's prepared words. Thats not really a time for message control, proper cadence, and prepared statements. If you feel you must say something, at least pour your heart out.

The blinking and tear wiping seemed perfunctory too. Just my observation and opinion.

[Anonymous Coward]

Emperor Barry has deigned to weigh in through his court jester, Jay Carney

According to White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, Obama was briefed on the shooting Friday morning by counterterrorism adviser John Brennan and is continuing to receive regular updates.

Everything is terrorism.

"I know the president, as a father, does, and I as a father, and others who are parents certainly do, which is to feel enormous sympathy for families that are affected and to do everything we can to support state and local law enforcement and to support those who are enduring what appears to be a very tragic event," Carney said.

"Appears", huh? I guess in the administration of drone process, killing 18 children is better known as "a slow day."

Carney wouldn't say whether the shooting would make gun control a higher priority on the president's agenda, but he said there would be a day for discussion on that policy issue.

Why would he when he has legions of proxies, fellow-travelers, and useful idiots to do it for him?

[A Serious Man]

Gun control is like crack for Democrats, they know its bad for them, it costs them big every time, but they keep going back to it anyway.

[R C Dean]

How fucked up would your mental wiring have to be to say this "appears" to be a tragic event?

[tarran]

The more I consider your question, the more disturbing I find it...

Yeah.... Under what scenario would it not be tragic?

[Anonymous Coward]

When the kids in question are in the kill zone of a hellfire missile.

[db]

This is so fucked up. How horrible that this guy appears to have killed all these kids in a twisted act of hate against his mother.

[fish]

And in a way this is better than had he just been some schlub off the street having a bad day!

[Proprietist]

And his father, too, apparently. Rumors are that he was also found dead.

[db]

It is said his younger brother is in police custody in NJ. I guess for questioning.

[fish]

Now it's said that his brother is one of the victims. Man this guy really fucking twisted off!

[RBS]

It keeps getting crazier if the stuff on the 24/7 feed is accurate.

[Karl Hungus]

I feel bad for the wrong Ryan Lanza . . .

[fish]

Indeed.

[db]

Is the one onCBS web site the right one or a wrong one?

[Karl Hungus]

Is the one onCBS web site the right one or a wrong one?

Fuck, who knows. Don't believe anything you see on the news for at least the rest of the day. It'll take that long for all the pertinent facts to be developed. That's not a ding on CNN, Fox, NBC, et al, it's just that when something like this first happens, there's so much contradictory shit flying around that you're not sure what to believe. I mean, as of an hour ago, there were supposedly two shooters . . .

[tarran]

Well, one of them is frantically tweeting he's not the one they are looking for.

I'm Cinna the poet! Cinna the poet!

[Joe M]

Well, uh, the guy's dead, sooooo... gonna be tough to find him.

[Nihixul]

Has anyone commented on this story yet?

[Karl Hungus]

Has anyone commented on this story yet?

Nope, you're the first - congrats! Your check is in the mail.

[Clich? Bandit]

got squirreled earlier:

Fuck! This 6 hours after Gov. Hickenlooper said we need gun control in Colorado.

[T o n y]

If only those kindergarteners were allowed to open carry, this all could have been prevented.

[fish]

Every time you sockpuppet on over humanity dies just a little bit more you greasy fuck!

[John]

shut up you sick sock puppet troll. Do you understand what a low, vile worthless piece of shit you have to be to use the bodies of dead children to score cheap political points? It is sad that you have no idea how depraved your politics have made you.

[T o n y]

How dare we talk about the role of guns in society on a day children were shot!

[Karl Hungus]

How dare we talk about the role of guns in society on a day children were shot!

What bothers me is that you're apparently happy that this has happened, as you feel it gives you some sort of leverage in a discussion about guns.

[John]

Yes how dare you. You just want to use the tragic death of children to advance your sick political agenda. They are not dead children, this is not a tragedy to you. They are just props and this is nothing but an opportunity. Go die in a fire troll.

[T o n y]

So what are you doing, on this website where people discuss political issues? Except being holier-than-thou, of course.

[Almanian.]

You're talking to yourself again, Choney

[fish]

Except being holier-than-thou, of course

So now you don't think your standard approach to any argument is appropriate.

[T o n y]

I'm haughty, not holier-than-thou.

[Restoras]

You are neither, you are just a pathetic, useless sockpuppet.

[ant1sthenes]

Tony: sleazy funeral home director.

[tarran]

So Tony, tell us about your plan to ban cars! Do you think Obama will support outlawing the Chevy Volt?

[T o n y]

I support the quickest possible advancement of self-driving fully electric cars, which will virtually eliminate vehicle deaths and put a large dent in carbon emissions. As a bonus it would make gun rights absolutist hillbillies have one less hunk of fallacious bullshit in their pocket to fling whenever a gun regulation conversation happens.

[tarran]

Oh how precious!

You don't know how electricity transmission works either!

[fish]

And in the end S o c k p u p p e t got all he wanted politically and he got to do, in perfect safety, what he always wanted to do. Sit quietly with his faggy little hands folded.

[Fluffy]

In other words, you're advocating a course of development which you think will result in a future with lower total deaths in the aggregate, and if a few people need to burn up in Chevy Volts in the meantime, that's just statistical noise as we move towards lower aggregate deaths.

Well, similarly, since violent crime deaths and gun deaths have been moving DOWN as gun control measures have died nationwide over the last few decades, we can conclude that the advance of gun rights is leading to fewer crime victims in the aggregate, regardless of high-profile tragic cases in the meantime.

[Not an Economist]

Correlation is NOT causation.

Unless I agree with it.

[Proprietist]

I agree with you, but I think the market will get there without government interference.

[EDG reppin' LBC]

...which will virtually eliminate vehicle deaths...

Never underestimate the capacity for dumbfucks to wander into traffic. If my neighborhood is any indicator, even with pilotless cars, there will still be plenty of vehicle vs. pedestrian accidents.

[Redmanfms]

I support the quickest possible advancement of self-driving fully electric cars

Yup, not like cars with electronic throttle controls ever had any problems with unexplained acceleration resulting in deaths and a huge recall..... Or anything......

You silly little leftists and your Utopian delusions.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dammit, sockpuppet, you're late! Next time, have Welch set the dryer on a timer and not on the More Dry/Less Dry setting!

[Jordan]

If only we required everybody to be stripsearched by a TSA agent whenever they leave their house. Think of how many crimes could be prevented.

[T o n y]

I think the gun lobby would get behind it. Their current rhetoric is that we need to screen people's brains for psychopathy--it's mental illness that kills, not guns. Anything but decreasing gun sales... er taking away our freedom!

[Almanian.]

You keep talking into a mirror, Choney.

[darius404]

it's mental illness that kills, not guns

Better bend over, then....

[A Serious Man]

Obama almost started crying during his speech.

[Tim]

Too much time with Boehner?

[Anonymous Coward]

He wasn't crying, he was scratching his face.

[Kaptious Kristen]

Sociopaths don't cry genuine tears.

[A Serious Man]

If he manages to pass some gun control, like banning ultra deadly "high capacity mags", I fully expect a crying Obama statute to be erected somewhere. The cult of personality knows no bounds.

[SugarFree]

You never let a good tragedy go to waste, so the trolls, and sockpuppets and griefers are out in force. Look what obsession, what madness it takes to come here and troll and grief us after a horrible event like this.

I'll never go to a Reason meet-up. Never.

[Heroic Mulatto]

I'll never go to a Reason meet-up. Never.

But the sex, dude...the sex!

[WTF]

But the sex, dude...the sex!

I've got one word for you: Warty.

[fish]

I've got one word for you: Warty.

Hey! He's ribbed for your pleasure!

[Cnk]

"You never let a good tragedy go to waste, so the trolls, and sockpuppets and griefers are out in force"

I thought you liked Warty and Epi?

[Cnk]

By the way, fuck off self appointed board cop.

[DesigNate]

What's it like going through life as a joyless fuck?

[SugarFree]

Don't feed it. Even insulting it is something it can get off on.

[XM]

I heard he used 4 hand guns, not assault weapons or anything illegal. So that complicates the gun control debate.

The problem is that America can never go back to a time or place where guns didn't exist. If you're deranged, then you'll put up with restrictions to buy guns legally or illegally at the black market.

Even if you could make it significantly difficult for psychopaths to acquire guns, well connected criminal organization will still get their guns from... Mexico or something. Which is right below us.

We have some messed up people living in this country. Football players making millions of dollars execute their families.

[NoVAHockey]

Hartford Courtant reporting 223-caliber rifle

[Dylboz]

http://i.imgur.com/mppse.jpg

[Gunther]

Might be it's time to begin serious consideration on repealing that 2nd amendment.

[Kaptious Kristen]

Congrats! You're the first troll to bring up this topic in this thread!

[fish]

Might be it's time that you go fuck yourself!

[WTF]

Let's get rid of that nasty First Amendment, too, so you don't have to put up with people disagreeing with you!

[HazelMeade]

If you would all agree to disarm yourselves, submit to my authority, and become my slaves, you'd be so much safer and happier.
Your poor, silly, attachement to "freedom" causes you so much misery. Just submit to my wise leadership and your loving mistress will protect you from harm!

[John]

If you would live on my plantation, I promise I would be a benevolent slave master and would see to all of your needs. And I would only let Warty off his leash to catch those of you who tried to escape.

[Citizen Nothing]

OK! I'm in!

[HazelMeade]

I would be a more benevolent slave master than John.

John would make you go on military expeditions to foreign lands. Whereas I would offer free tuition to the school that teaches my eternal wisdom and goodness.

[Almanian.]

Go on, Hazel....

[Warrren]

Bitter Clingers ASSEMBLE!

[A Serious Man]

From Twitter: @Ryan_Lanza: so apparently im getting spammed bc someone with the same name as me killed some people...wtf?

Wow.

[Redmanfms]

IDK, I kinda have to agree with his reaction.

I'd be WTFing too.

[HazelMeade]

Poor guy did not yet know it was his younger brother.

[Gunther]

The NRA hates freeedom. They don't want you to have the freedom for your kids to go to school and come home ALIVE

[WTF]

I gaurantee Obama has killed more kids than the NRA. Idiot.

[Almanian.]

D-

Try moar harder

[Redmanfms]

Because the all-knowing, all-powerful God-state disarmament fetishists pine for has historically been very successful at preventing death by violence......

[Heroic Mulatto]

In front of a senior center next door to the school, a 20-year-old woman was with her 4-year-old sister, who was in the school at the time of the shooting. The older woman came to pick up her younger sister along with their mother. The girl had her arms and legs wrapped around her older sister.

When a reporter asked the woman what the little girl knew of what had happened, the woman said, "Absolutely nothing, and we don't plan to tell her anything."

That's right you dumbass, tell her nothing. Don't explain to her, in an age-appropriate way that in the world there are bad people who do bad things. Don't teach her to how to protect herself and be safe. Fall back on your fantasy that the all-knowing State can create a bubble around you and yours so that you never have to take responsibility for your life.

[Gunther]

One guy tries to use a shoe bomb on a plane, we fly barefoot. 30 kids killed in school, everything's normal.

[Almanian.]

How's that flying barefoot working out?

D-

TRY MOAR HARDER.

[AZ]

No wonder this dude only shows up now when he can fingerpaint with the blood of kindergarteners, this is some shockingly weak trolling.

[A Serious Man]

Sources are now reporting that the shooter was not Ryan Lanza, but his brother Adam. Still no word yet on the other guy they reportedly caught near the school in camo.

[Proprietist]

Oh jesus.

[Karl Hungus]

Why do we never seem to hear about these guys going after police stations, shooting ranges, gun stores, or hunting lodges?

Anyone? T o n y?

[Almanian.]

Funny - I was just talking to the UAW safety rep at work this morning about shooting, ranges, etc.

Safest place, ever? The gun range. I've NEVER been less concerned about being shot than when I'm at....the gun range.

And yet there are all those SECONDAMENDMENTWINGNUT ASSAULTRIFLE ELEVENTYBILLIONROUNGDMAGS!!11111111!

And nothing else happened.

[General Butt Naked]

Just went on Cheaper Than Dirt and they had nary a eleventybillionroundmag-!one1, so I'm calling bullshit.

[T o n y]

Is the implication that there should be more guns in primary schools?

[tarran]

Possibly!

Do you think Sidwell Friends is made more dangerous by the presence of armed Secret Service agents?

[T o n y]

Secret Service agents are very well trained, much in way the 2nd amendment requires as a condition to the right to bear arms.

If you want well-trained militias guarding primary schools, that's one approach.

[Restoras]

Fuck off, sockpuppet.

[Karl Hungus]

Is the implication that there should be more guns in primary schools?

The implication is that it is never, ever, better to be defenseless than it is to be equipped to defend yourself. If that means teachers with CCWs or armed security, then yes, that is absolutely what I am suggesting. The only reason on earth that you would not
be on board with that is that you want more of these shootings to occur, as you feel it advances your disproven belief that controlling guns reduces crime.

[tarran]

Actually, if I were a teacher in my kids' schools, I would go unarmed. I would be more concerned about the 0.0000001% chance that a kid would somehow get hold of the gun than the 0.000000000001 % chance of a shooter coming through the door.

Of course, if I lived someplace rural with lots of hunters, where kids are far more likely to be taught cun safety, I might think differently.

On the other hand, if I were a principal, I might keep a shot-gun locked up in my office, just in case.

[tarran]

Also, we need to look at the varmint situation as well.

A mountain lion, for example, won't listen to pleas for mercy... 🙂

[Restoras]

It's a sockpuppet. Sockpuppets don't give a crap about anything except getting attention. Hence the idiocy of its comments.

[Groovus Maximus]

Would someone mind telling me what the fuck in going on over there? CNN International, Al-Jazeera (irony), and the local rags are going nuts over some Anders Breivik clone shooting up school children???????

For anyone that doubts the existence of psychosis, disociative disorders, and mental illness, yet again another tragic example. Simply shocking. I have no words to express my horror, disgust, and sadness. May God comfort and be with those in need.

The suicidal types are always the most dangerous, as when self-preservation goes out the window, the odds of taking someone else with you goes up exponetially.

Handguns may be illegal here, but methinks I may have to look into available options. Also, knife and blunt force trauma assaults happen here in UKR quite a bit.

Unleash the opportunist Army of Rahms...

[RBS]

Done

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....ction-2012

[Karl Hungus]

Handguns may be illegal here

What about long guns?

Unleash the opportunist Army of Rahms

T o n y is already exppressing his glee.

[Groovus Maximus]

What about long guns?

Long guns are legal. I have a Benelli on order. My neighbor owns some de-com'ed AK-47's and he offered to part with one.

T o n y is already exppressing his glee.

Why am I not surprised? Tony-kins lives in OK. He must have had a meltdown when Ok went to Open Carry. And there's an Army of Tony's just waiting for stuff like this. Oh, I see upthread he's already at it.

[John]

It is the funniest thing Goovus. OKC has an enormous gay population and some top shelf drag bars. Steers and queers is really true.

[Groovus Maximus]

So does Tulsa, John. I have seen it reported that per capita, OKC and Tulsa have one of the highest homosexual populations in the country. Also interesting that from my ER experiences with TX'ing domestic violence assaults, a rather high percentage of cases involved homosexuals, but certainly not limited to demographic. Lots of stair pushing ("Doctor, I just fell down!") and BFT and other types of battery. I guess OK needs to ban stairs and blunt, heavy things.

Steers and queers indeed, and I don't no no horns, boy!

/R. Lee Ermy

[John]

The lesbian community has a big problem with abuse.

[tarran]

Tell me about it! Every lesbian couple I have known have engaged in some pretty violent altercations.

I actually keep my distance from that ex-army work-wife I was telling you about because her life-partner is a spree-killing waiting to happen IMHO.

[Karl Hungus]

Also interesting that from my ER experiences with TX'ing domestic violence assaults, a rather high percentage of cases involved homosexuals . . .

Reminds me of this book!

[Groovus Maximus]

"...per capita populations..."

[RBS]

Done and done.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....ction-2012

[Groovus Maximus]

Good SOD! Simply tragic. Thanks, RBS.

[Paul.]

This event has raised the urgency for me to get my CHP.

[Proprietist]

Was thinking the same thing.

[Almanian.]

OK, outta here. Be safe. Tony - stop talking into the mirror. Fuck the shooter - condolences and prayers to the afflicted.

[XM]

I hate the youth of this country. That they voted to transform the country into a more affluent Mexico was only mildly annoying. Now look at these 20 year old shooting up malls, movie theaters and schools, living out some fantasy or revenge scenario.

OK fine, not all teens are like that. But just look at them - all wannabe progressives talking a big game about "civil rights", but can't make 20 minutes of their lives to pick up their cousin from school if something happened at their parent's job. No, you can't pitch in and finish someone's work for him if he got sick and had to go home. "That' not my responsibility man"

God save us

[iggy]

Dude, that sucks for Ryan. I feel incredibly bad for what he undoubtedly had to go through before the press made that correction. It's bad enough that his brother did something so horrific. I can only imagine what sorts of emails and phone calls he must have gotten before the retraction.

[tarran]

It's going to get really bad for the guy (assuming they weren't in cahoots). He just lost his family, and gained a fair bit of notoriety. Everyone will be pawing through their closets for those skeletons!

The degree of vilification he faces is likely to be very bad.

[iggy]

Dude, that sucks for Ryan. I feel incredibly bad for what he undoubtedly had to go through before the press made that correction. It's bad enough that his brother did something so horrific. I can only imagine what sorts of emails and phone calls he must have gotten before the retraction.

[Gindjurra]

Cue anti-gun nuts pushing their special interest agenda in 3... 2... 1...

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Now Mike Bloomberg is getting in the act. Dipshit.

http://www.mikebloomberg.com/i.....290775FBA9

[db]

This is starting to sound like the shooter (Adam) stole his brother Ryan's guns, as CBS earlier reported that Ryan (when he was repprted to be the shooter) was the lawful owner of the guns, although I have no idea how they would have established that as fact.

[Gray Ghost]

Cops get to scene, grab guns, call in serial numbers on guns to station, station contacts BATFE and whatever CT data repository there is, they call back with the registered owner, and cops leak that name to media?

That's my guess for how they got the name of Ryan as the owner of the guns.

[db]

That's exactly my take on it as well.

[db]

Also, if they have the age right for Adam, the shooter, I'm pretty aure there's no way he could have legally bought handguns. At least in PA, you can't buy a handgun until 21 and I can't imagine it would be more lenient in either NJ or CT.

[Enough About Palin]

Meanwhile...

First Lady Michelle Obama Thursday suggested Republicans are engaged in rampant lying as they debate the issues with President Obama.

"People have to stay focused on what's going on, because it's easy to get confused in all the back and forth that goes on, and there's a whole lot of not-truth telling going on, if you know what I mean," Michelle said during a radio appearance on the The Tom Joyner Show.

Mrs. Obama also charged that voter suppression during the 2012 election was widespread.

http://www.whitehousedossier.c.....ans-liars/

[fish]

and there's a whole lot of not-truth telling going on....

See this is why first ladies should be fitted for a nice ball gag on inauguration day.

[T o n y]

Something nonfactual in those statements?

[Enough About Palin]

Union Threatens Michigan Governor: 'We'll Be at Your Daughter's Soccer Game'...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/.....66554.html

[nikea]

The shooter is also dead. There is another person found dead at a second crime scene. Law enforcement are not formally http://www.cheapbeatsbydreonau.com/ identifying any victims yet.

[A Mathematician]

More like this demonstrates another reason why you shouldn't send your kids to public school.

[Killazontherun]

Since there are no responsible adults, just self governing children, at these schools, you're conclusion is just so logical.

[A Mathematician]

What about knives? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/worl.....a-20723910

[Not an Economist]

There was a school bombing in 1927 in Bath Township, Michagan. This ain't new.

[Heroic Mulatto]

You're an idiot

November 2, 1853: Louisville, Kentucky A student, Matthew Ward, bought a self-cocking pistol in the morning, went to school and killed Schoolmaster Mr. Butler for excessively punishing his brother the day before. Even though he shot the Schoolmaster point blank in front of his classmates, he was acquitted

An April 30, 1866 editorial in the New York Times argued against students carrying pistols, citing "...pistols being dropped on the floor at balls or being exploded in very inconvenient ways. A boy of 12 has his pantaloons made with a pistol pocket; and this at a boarding-school filled with boys, who, we suppose, do or wish to do the same thing. We would advise parents to look into it, and learn whether shooting is to be a part of the scholastic course which may be practiced on their boys; or else we advise them to see that their own boys are properly armed with the most approved and deadly-pistol, and that there may be an equal chance at least of their shooting as of being shot.

December 22, 1868: Chattanooga, Tennessee A boy who refused to be whipped and left school, returned with his brother and a friend, the next day to seek revenge on his teacher. Not finding the teacher at the school, they continued to his house, where a gun battle rang out, leaving three dead. Only the brother survived

[MWG]

Violent crime is down across the US you racist piece of shit.

[deified]

I'll just leave this right here.

[John]

When America was culturally conservative and WASPish, there weren't school shootings. Now that we're a multicultural stew of liberalism and political correctness and social dysfunction, we have school shootings (despite tighter restrictions on gun laws).

Because good God fearing white people would never do such a thing. Fuck you you racist piece of shit. Go troll elsewhere.

[Francisco d Anconia]

I vote that Frothy shouldn't reproduce at all.

[Zeb]

There is something about private schools that prevents something like this from happening?

[Heroic Mulatto]

March 9, 1873: Salisbury, Maryland After school as Miss Shockley was walking with four small children, she was approached by a Mr. Hall and shot. The Schoolmaster ran out, but she was dead instantly. Hall threw himself under a train that night.[24]
May 24, 1879: Lancaster, New York As the carriage loaded with female students was pulling out of the school's stables, Frank Shugart, a telegraph operator, shot and severely injured Mr. Carr, Superintendent of the stables.[25]
March 6, 1884: Boston, Massachusetts As news of Jesse James reached the east coast, young kids started to act in the same manner. An article from the New York Times reads, Another "Jesse James" Gang - Word was brought to the Fifth Police Station to-night that a number of boys were using the Concord-street School-house for some unknown purpose, and a posse of officers was sent to investigate. The gang scattered at the approach of the police, and in their flight one drew a revolver and fired at Officer Rowan, without effect, however. William Nangle, age 14, and Sidney Duncan, age 12, were captured, but the other five or six escaped, among them the one who did the shooting. The boys refused to disclose the object of their meeting, but it is thought that another "Jesse James" organization has been broken up.[26]

[Heroic Mulatto]

March 15, 1884: Gainsville, Georgia In the middle of the day, a group of very drunk Jackson County farmers left the Jug Tavern drinking and shooting their revolvers as they headed down the street driving people into their homes. As they approached the female academy, the girls fled the schoolyard into the school where the gang followed swearing and shooting, firing several rounds into the front door. No one was hurt.[27]
July 4, 1886: Charleston, South Carolina During Sunday school, Emma Connelly shot and killed John Steedley for "circulating slanderous reports" about her, even though her brother publicly whipped him a few days earlier.[28]
June 12, 1887: Cleveland, Tennessee Will Guess went to the school and fatally shot Miss Irene Fann, his little sister's teacher, for whipping her the day before.[29]
June 13, 1889: New Brunswick, New Jersey Charles Crawford upset over an argument with a school Trustee, went up to the window and fired a pistol into a crowded school room. The bullet lodged in the wall just above the teacher's[vague] head.[30]

[Heroic Mulatto]

The first known mass shooting in the U.S. where students were shot, was on April 9, 1891, when 70 year old, James Foster fired a shotgun at a group of students in the playground of St. Mary's Parochial School, Newburgh, New York, causing minor injuries to several of the students.[31] The majority of attacks during this time period by students on other students or teacher, usually involved stabbing with knives, or hitting with stones.

Shall I go on, you fucking ignorant piece of shit?

[Zeb]

"There are more and more acts of wanton violence in the news"

"In the news" is the key phrase here.

[sloopyinca]

Or perhaps technology has evolved at such an accelerated pace that stories which were once local or regional are now sensationalized on a national scale immediately and free from the filter of fact-checking and journalistic integrity.

From every "white girl kidnapped" story like that chick in Aruba to the Casey Anthony witch hunt/case, we treat tings that happen every day like they're new events, even if they've happened almost daily since man began living in communities.

Our culture is not eroding, as evidenced by the reduction in violent crime over the last several decades. What is happening is that news outlets have bills to pay, and sensationalism sells.

[Francisco d Anconia]

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the 24/7 news media springing up about 20 years ago...dipshit.

[John]

I haven't been on as much lately. But yeah, pretty damned obvious. I think my brain is going soft.

[MWG]

Rick is Slappy.

[Enough About Palin]

I believe the West Nickel Mines School was private (Amish), so no.

[tarran]

Speaking of brain softeners, how are the inauguration preps going?

[John]

Slow. It is not really legal work. It is staff work. Just planning and planning and planning. Please God let nothing bad happen during it.

[Killazontherun]

She lives for this shit. That is how sick she is in the head.

[Cnk]

I will never understand why you idiots constantly type "ignore it" when you want it ignored, since TYPING A FUCKING RESPONSE TO IT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF IGNORING IT.

Just say NOTHING. NO RESPONSE AT ALL.

Seriously John...

[Heroic Mulatto]

Keep moving those goal posts, Dick.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Loooooooooool.

Laugh out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, loud?

Who talks like that?

[iggy]

Fuckin' Rick. No matter what the problem is, it's the result of not enough hyper-conservative WASPs manning the wall against the heathen savages.

[iggy]

Rick, I'd also like to point out that the murder rate in the 70's was higher than the murder rate today. So, you know. Overall violence has actually been declining since those damn Messican papists started taking land from their White Protestant superiors.

[tarran]

You sure?

Because I've been praying hard for the Roberts to pour ex-lax into his coffee in lieu of cream.

Anything to turn the pomp to farce really.

[Gray Ghost]

As I wrote to Torontoian in the AGW thread, thanks for the links/cites, HM. Didn't really such incidents were so prevalent back then. I'm sure I'll get to use your work---unfortunately---at Xmas dinner with my Masshole brother-in-law

[John]

Funny bad is okay tarran. I was speaking more of bad horrible, some nut blows something up or kills a bunch of people bad.

I would be just fine with Obama shitting himself or throwing up all over Roberts during the oath.

[Zeb]

"Because I've been praying hard for the Roberts to pour ex-lax into his coffee in lieu of cream."

That wouldn't be bad. It would be awesome.

[Suthenboy]

Once when Earl Long was giving a campaign speech in Columbia, Louisiana my grandfather and some of his buddies chatted him up before the speech and gave him some hot chocolate. Yep, they put ex-lax in it. My grandfather would laugh himself to tears every time he told about that.

One of his first cousins is still living. I went to see him about 6 months ago to get some smoked sausage and he told the story again.

I think it would be stellar if someone were to do that to roberts or obama.

[db]

For that matter, what kind of asshole uses "LOL" in a post on a thread about dead kids? Just ignore this piece of shit.

[sloopyinca]

Are you out of your fucking mind? Terrorism started in America before we were even a country. And while the targets may have been different, political assassinations like Lincoln's (Loughner), attacks on government buildings like the the Weather Underground (McVeigh) and attacks on groups of young people like at the Bath School (Columbine and Virginia Tech) have gone on for quite some time.

Sorry, but you're just full of shit here.

[kbolino]

You're right, 1900s America didn't have flash mobs, they just had lynch mobs, which were much more civilized.

[Jersey Patriot]

It did have segregation and lynchings, idiot.

[MJGreen]

Flash mobs, lynch mobs and good old labor clashes and anarchist bombings.

[Zeb]

I think that is more likely.

[alan_s]

"Our culture is not eroding, as evidenced by the reduction in violent crime over the last several decades. What is happening is that news outlets have bills to pay, and sensationalism sells."

In general, I agree with you, but I don't think a grown adult gunning children down is a in any way a regular ocurrence. This is truly messed up. Even if socons are right about a breakdown in culture, statism isn't the solution to that problem. It just makes any perceived societal meltdown even worse.

[kbolino]

There has never been a time in American history where there wasn't a division into different ideological camps (Obama has nothing on Eugene V. Debs) and ethnicities (the Irish didn't migrate here yesterday).

That you believe otherwise is because you have whitewashed and romanticized the history of this nation. Christ, we fought a goddamn civil war and it wasn't because we all got along so well.

[Scarcity]

Rick, WTF do you think what you just said means?

Decreasing violence is correlated with increased Mexican immigration and "60s cultural liberalization." That's not causation, but it sure makes it tricky to prove the opposite.

[Citizen Nothing]

It's like that scene where Gollum argues with Smeagol.

[Cnk]

And you're John's sockpuppet.

Now shut the fuck up, thanks.

[Cnk]

Why are you talking to yourself John/tarran who is the same fucking person?

[Cnk]

Seriously, I love the fake conversation with yourself. It really highlights your mental illness obliviousness to how obvious it is that you're the same stupid fucking troll poster.

[darius404]

Only yours, santorum.

[a better weapon]

According to the FBI, violent crime has dropped year over year since 1992. Now there are many reasons why that might be, but I point to Wolfenstein 3D, the very 1st first-person shooter video game, which was released in May 1992. I think these sort of outlets act as a safety valve and not a magnifier.

[Restoras]

Of course they do - it's a perfect impetus to make further progressive advances into personal liberty.

[JeremyR]

Yes. None of those incidents even remotely resembles a modern day school shooting where a person goes to a school, kills as many people as he can, then kills himself.

[tarran]

That's right cnk, we *are* the same person. You sure found me out.