How I Became an APaulogist, Despite My Suspicious Heritage
A Hot Air blogger identifies me as one of Ron Paul's "media apologists," citing my comments on Monday's New York Times story about the Texas congressman's support among right-wingers with odious views regarding blacks and Jews. The main thrust of the Times article was that Paul has repudiated those views but is not returning donations from the people who hold them or telling those people they are not welcome as supporters. I posed the question of whether that is a legitimate complaint, noting the Paul campaign's argument that using bigots' money to further the cause of liberty is better than giving it back. That position seems morally defensible to me, although tactically speaking it might be smarter to make a show of returning checks from the likes of Stormfront's Don Black. In any case, I said, "It surely is unfair to blame Paul for the opinions expressed by some of his supporters."
While Hot Air's "Karl" thinks that position makes me an aPaulogist, the very same post prompted an angry response from a Paul supporter and foe of "neocons" who accused me of writing a "hit piece," mentioned that I graduated from Akiba Hebrew Academy, scolded me for using anti-Semitism as a synonym for prejudice against Jews (Arabs are Semites too!), and listed me alongside other people who he said have sought to discredit Paul: "What do Sullum, Blitzer, Borger, Frum, Rabinowitz, Mantell, and others have in common? I will let you connect the dots."
I have to admit it is a little disconcerting to think that I agree with this guy about the best candidate seeking the Republican presidential nomination. But it's a logical fallacy to argue that there must be something wrong with Paul's foreign policy views if anti-Semites like them, just as it's a logical fallacy to say his criticism of the Federal Reserve must be invalid because it appeals to people with a vendetta against Jewish bankers. Over the years, I have received more than a few grateful letters from readers with horrifying opinions, and I have never responded by changing my positions in the hope of attracting a better class of fans. No matter what you say, some people are bound to agree with you for the wrong reasons.
The inflammatory newsletter articles are a more serious issue because they show someone deliberately appealing to bigots. As I said during Paul's last presidential campaign, his explanations for how they went out under his name without his knowledge have not been fully satisying, but the material is so at odds with his public persona and positions during the last 35 years that I believe him when he says he neither wrote nor approved it. Some people either don't believe him or think the carelessness he admits is enough to disqualify him as a presidential candidate. For me the newsletters, while undeniably troubling, are not a deal breaker because Paul strikes me as a fundamentally decent, honest, and principled man who, although he may not be the ideal vessel for the libertarian message, is the closest we've ever seen, by a long shot, in a major party's presidential primaries. He is the only candidate making the points that need to be made about reckless interventionism at home and abroad, about spending money we do not have, about the folly of the war on drugs, about the threat to civil liberties posed by unchecked executive power, and about constitutional limits on federal authority.
An anecdote in today's New York Times illustrates the qualities that set Paul apart from his competitors and from almost every other politician in America:
One student from Grinnell asked Mr. Paul on Wednesday afternoon whether he could name something he thought government could do to help the country. Another asked about the future of the Peace Corps under a President Paul.
His answer may not have been what either had hoped for, as he cited defense and protection of currency as reasonable governmental duties but added, "Probably about 80 percent of what the federal government does is technically unconstitutional."
By contrast, Mitt Romney, currently vying with Paul for the top position in Iowa, thinks almost everything the federal government does is "absolutely essential," but he will happily pretend otherwise for the sake of a few votes.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
You're a bastard Sullum, and everybody knows it.
Just out of curiosity, what's going on with the Ground Zero Mosque?
Con Edison has been trying (so far unsuccessfully) to get rid of the mosque by retoractively raising its rent to unsustainable levels:
http://gothamist.com/2011/11/2....._51yet.php
Con Edison is the government-propped up monopoly for electricity in the city, isn't it?
So, due to rate controls, there is a legitimate claim against Government-endorsed religious discrimination, since their profit level is fixed and determined by government, and the rent from this property will be a part of their bottom line.
The inflammatory newsletter articles are a more serious issue because they show someone deliberately appealing to bigots.
"Somebody" meaning Rothbard? Is that why he is a persona non grata at Reason?
Only neonazis and ostriches support Ron Paul now. Who would pay to publish and mail a news letter, in his own name, for a decade and a half, without ever even READING one of them? If that's the way he runs a newsletter, gods help us if he ever gets in the White House!
It's seldom that people are wrong about EVERYTHING. Ron Paul says a lot of things that make a lot of sense, and need to be heard.
But, I would never, EVER vote for for such a BIGOT!
I haven't had enough to drink today. Is this a joke?
This is a variation of a current Democrat talking-point about Paul, perhaps straight from a Media Matters drone or whatever the current version of JournoList is.
No, I think this is a Team Red issue/troll. This kind of shit has been spewn all over Free Repugnant for months if not years.
I just saw the same point posted by a reliable Democrat Facebook friend, and I'm sure she didn't get it from Free Republic.
The exact same shit is all over Free Republic
"Paul is a nut, and apparently a racist. He printed the newsletters and now wants to pretend he didn't. Sorry Dr. Ron - your racist past has caught up with you."
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2824903/posts
Are you really this fucking stupid or do you just like to argue?
""perhaps straight from a Media Matters drone or whatever ""
The Girl Scouts told him it was so.
Look, we're going to have a larger than usual number of trolls and drive-bys until the election is over. Particularly when the article mentions RP.
They are time-wasters. Ignore them.
The stupidity generated by Ron Paul posts is truly mind-boggling. If only we could harness it for a useful purpose, like churning out Israel/Palestine posts.
I don't think so. I think a guy like that is salvageable. He says he likes some of his ideas. He's half way there. If you can respectfully point out the shortcomings in his argument, as OM does below (before he calls his exaggeration ludicrous), you might get a guy like that to re-think his position.
Re: thomas,
There were only four - count them, FOUR - sentences that can have a questionable taste, out of that decade and a half. For a person that had a busy OB/GYN business and schedule, it would have been extraordinary for him to catch those.
Again, your exaggeration is ludricrous.
thomas would probably prefer Newclear Titties or Rick Perry, two guys that weren't even capable of organizing a signature drive to get them on the ballot in Virginia...within 4 months of the primary. But he'll bash a guy based on 4 out of 10,000 sentences a subordinate wrote under his name 20+ years ago.
What a dick.
---"If that's the way he runs a newsletter, gods help us if he ever gets in the White House!"---
It occured to me last night that with all of the complaining about RP not keeping track of what was done in his newsletters (he put his name on them you understand, so he is responsible for everything in them)that Obama and Holder are using the exact same justification for no knowing about F&F and other things that have happened on their watch (not saying this as an attempt to say "he did it" but to point out the hypocricy).
And, also, with the call for RP to out the actual author, I think that RP is doing the right thing by accepting responsibility for the newsletters and not trying to blame somebody else, in contrast to what we normally see from politicians.
Let's not forget that the old fuck is still connected to the HBS and the 9/11 Truthers. Sullum has blinders connected to his kippa.
Wow, Max... who taught you to use the word "kippa"? It makes you almost sound learned and intellectual.
Harvard Business School?
Ah I suspect you meant JBS as in John Birch Society. I'm wondering why you always bring them up, sure they had some kooky ideas but, is it possible you are a Communist? Or maybe your parents were? Cos the JBS theories turned out to UNDERESTIMATE the problem in many cases, while obviously being nutty in other cases. It's peculiar to bring up JBS when no one cares about it .
"""
Who would pay to publish and mail a news letter, in his own name, for a decade and a half, without ever even READING one of them?
"""
Someone working 60 hour weeks at his day job.
Thomas If you ever took the time to study Dr. Paul you would see he is no racist. He was the only Congressman in Texas to vote for MLK Day as a National Holiday. He also has the backing of the NAACP in Texas that says that he is not racist. He has delivered thousands of babies of all color and race even in times where most Doctors would only deliver white babies.He even says that MLK and Rosa Parks are his heroes because they fought for the same cause as him(individual rights). He also went back to practicing medicine when those newsletters went out so he was not around to check on them. You can do the research if you like but do not take a couple of sentences from a newsletter that has been proven that he did not write by specialists over the thousands of interviews, lines in his books, and public speaking quotes that prove that he believes in individual rights and does not like to group people because that is the only way to have racism is through groups. And as far as Israel their own President has said he would like for us to back off because they can handle themselves. The real research is out there and its okay if you don't like Dr.Paul because some of his policies they are not for everyone but to demonize this man because of the media and false information is wrong in my book.
This EXACT same post is on comment boards ranging from CNN to Mediaite. VERBATIM. Some sort of multi-threaded troll. I wonder how effective this actually is?
God save Ron Paul from the Paultards.
And cancel my subscription!!!
Oh, and in the case of "thomas," from the Antitards.
Aren't they just regular 'tards?
It's tards all the way down.
It's not nice to say retarded.
Correct. The proper expression is "fucking retarded".
To get a sense of the anti-Paul mentality, read not only the article but the comments section as well.
I would prefer not to.
Hmm. Would you like a slice of apartheid to go with your Israel?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8apEWUc8hfQ
What the shit? That chick has some deeper emotional issues. Thank god for youtube.
"No matter what you say, some people are bound to agree with you for the wrong reasons."
Especially if one of your books is subtitled "in defense of drug use."
Seriously, good points there, and I'm not just trying to flatter you, I also want a job.
FACT: Ron Paul said he doesn't care if the Iranians obtain a nuclear weapon
FACT: Ron Paul will slash our military budget to the bone, leaving us vulnerable and projecting an image of weakness to rising authoritarian state that threaten freedom like China and Russia
FACT: Ron Paul will abandon Israel to her terrorist foes
FACT: Ron Paul blamed America for 9/11, in a fashion similar to radical black liberationist Jeremiah Wright and radical Marxist historian Howard Zinn
FACT: Ron Paul stated the killing of Osama bin Laden was "illegal" and an "assassination"
Ron Paul: Too Extreme for America
Fact: TTARP just wet his pants.
Of course crying over the death of the guy who planned the worst terrorist attack in American history sounds like one hell of a way to win the Presidency.
I wish Paul would stick to a few reasonable points and then just shut the fuck up. But he is a lot like Gingrich in that regard. He feels he must tell the world everything he thinks about anything.
See, John. Saying stuff like this marks you as a goof. And I say that with love.
Of course, I'm an avowed flibbertigibbet, so take my advice for what it's worth.
CN, flibbertigibbet is an awesome word!
Yeah but then it leads to the Sound of Music, with questionable results.
crying over the death
don't forget to mention the crying occurred as he "stormed" out of the room
Exactly. And saying Al Qaeda is no different from Timothy McVeigh or the Mafia is downright insane and a refusal to look reality (and evil) squarely in the face, call it what it is, and defeat it.
And, John, you might find yourself associated with goofs like this. And that's not good for anybody.
Dude, this guy's beliefs parallel nicely with John's, why wouldn't he want to be associated with TTARP.
You can tell that election time is nearing; John's put on his TEAMRED tights and cape. Expect a lot of nastiness in the coming year from "The Man in the Guilded Cage" and his sidekick "This is Why Nobody Takes Libertarians Seriously Man".
OMG, I totally hadn't read this yet:
To dismiss the whole think as "it is just obvious" is both lazy and insulting and goes a long ways to explaining why so few Libertarians are taken seriously.
I've gone dunphy level thetan psychic.
Wait...oh... thought i made it to the NRO web page by mistake...
"Ron Paul will abandon Israel to her terrorist foes"
Cutting off aid to Israel would strengthen it. Getting it addicted to the government dole weakens it in the same manner it weakens individuals. It makes them less independent. That said we should abolish aid to Arab countries too because that goes to support dictators who their people hate, a seed for blowback.
Israel can defend itself. If we are to stop the freebies, Egypt and Jordan need to be kicked off the gravy train at the same time.
Cutting Israel off would definitely strengthen her...especially when you cut her belligerent neighbors off that are getting nearly 4x as much aid annually.
Direct military aid from the US amounts to less than 2% of Israel's GDP. As Israel has a debt/GDP ratio heading below 75% and a strong credit rating, it could afford to borrow to make up the shortfall if the aid was withdrawn (until it rebalanced its domestic spending). In short, Israel is not even close to being 'addicted' to US aid. It's a ridiculous canard peddled by people who prefer dog whistles to clearly articulated foreign policy. Cutting off aid is not a Middle East stance, it's a dodge of the real issues, a pretense that one simple move somehow disentangles a very complicated set of relationships.
FACT: Ron Paul blamed America for 9/11, in a fashion similar to radical black liberationist Jeremiah Wright and radical Marxist historian Howard Zinn
So, Ron Paul hates black people and Jewish people except when he agrees with them?
Now you're getting it... and Ron Paul is also a Marxist when he agrees with them.
You think you're kidding, but that's really how they think ....
You's trollin'. No way is that meant to be serious.
A life-long conservative Reagan Girl and conservative feminist, Lisa holds a Bachelors of Science in Political Science from Sacred Heart University, Fairfield, CT. Lisa is a staunch, unapologetic, Christian supporter and defender of Israel, who considers herself a spiritual Jew. Lisa resides in CT with her family and assortment of rescued pets.
Thanks for listing the reasons for me to not listen to you before I even read your article, Lisa.
Newt, is that you?
FACT: I think I shit in my pants.
Paul wasn't against killing bin laden. It was the american Islamist he wasn't thrilled with. Key word: American.
Paul wasn't thrilled with the way we went about killing Bin Laden. I have to agree that sneaking into a country, killing a bunch of people, and dumping his body in the ocean without even sending Pakistan an e-mail that we might do this makes me a bit uneasy. Can't say I am sad about his death though.
FACT: Ron Paul will abandon Israel to her terrorist foes
He also said Israel should be able to defend itself and NOT have to ask us for permission. Why do you want to keep Israel on a leash?
Methinks TTARP and those who believe Ron Paul is anti-Israel often want to "keep Israel on a leash" because they're somehow convinced that their eternal salvation is tied to US/Israel relations.
FACT: Iran has no way to deliver a nuclear weapon, and if they did Israel has enough nukes to turn the entire country into radioactive glass. So why should anyone care?
FACT: Even with the cuts Paul would make, we still have geographical security and enough nukes to destroy the world. As far as threats to freedom go, our greatest one is in Washington DC.
FACT: Israel can take care of itself.
FACT: If you poke a dog with a stick it might rip your face off. Do you deserve to have your face ripped off? Probably not. Did you ask for it? Yes.
FACT: Assassinating figureheads in foreign countries is illegal.
We don't have enough nukes to "destroy the world" and never really did. Why do people always say that?
Fine. We've got enough nukes to destroy every major city in the world, along with a measurable percentage of the world's population.
Better?
Much.
"We don't have enough nukes to "destroy the world"
Bullshit.
We have far more than enough nukes to permanently ruin the atmosphere/ecosystem.
You can define "destroy the world" a different way than that if you like, but you'll look like a fucking retard.
Wow - name calling is a super way to prove me wrong. Great debating skills there.
The Obama Administration is taking us from 2,200 strategic to 1,550 warheads. We also have about 500 tactical nukes. All of the monster mulch-megaton bombs are gone. Our biggest warheads are now about 475 Kilotons.
We can kill a lot of people and make a hell of a mess - but there is too much world and not enough bombs for us to destroy it - even with environmental and radiation effects.
Not a bet I'd be willing to take.
How about you?
Well, if we nuked every urban area on Earth, then maybe there would be a chance of a Libertarian winning a national election. Or at least a fiscal conservative.
The catalyst state of the plutonium in bombs built before the mid eighties has gone passed what is considered bomb grade effectiveness. Don't pass that around.
FACT: Iran has no way to deliver a nuclear weapon
Iran has ballistic missiles, aircraft, and ships, any of which can carry nukes.
and if they did Israel has enough nukes to turn the entire country into radioactive glass. So why should anyone care?
Because Iran is ruled by theocratic nutcases who believe they can initiate the return of the 12th imam by creating a crisis, and have publicly stated that the destruction of Israel would be worth the destruction of Iran. And they are a major sponsor of terror groups. So yeah, a concern about Iran having nukes is quite legitimate IMHO.
Don't believe everything people tell you, especially when they have a predetermined agenda - like attacking Iran.
It's not as if Iran's leadership has made a secret of their views.
Glenn? Glenn Beck, is that you?
I don't believe anything I wrote is wild-eyed conspiracy.
Yeah...deterrence won't work with Iran because they hate Israel more than they care about living, DEFINITELY ISN'T wild-eyed conspiracy.
You assign more rational self-interest to Islamist nuts than I do.
Religion is a strong force to compel people with. Convincing a population they all need to commit suicide in its behalf is another matter.
FACT: Israel can take care of itself.
Another fact: Israel's ability to defend themselves is greatly inhibited by US meddling in everything from imposing conditions on the Arabs for negotiations, to making Israel buy crap that doesn't work from US war profiteers.
For Israel to be secure, they must be released from being a vassal of the USA.
-jcr
Yeah, myself, I'm tired of the Batman-and-Robin schtick. Israel's at least good enough to be Nightwing already.
And I am, actually, serious.
FACT: Ron Paul will slash our military budget to the bone, leaving us vulnerable and projecting an image of weakness to rising authoritarian state that threaten freedom like China and Russia
We are so far ahead of everyone else in our military spending that we could cut it in half and still be the strongest. Not cutting military spending is more of a threat to the U.S. because of the threat of economic collapse. Rioting, starving, etc. tends to make a country vulnerable.
FACT: Ron Paul blamed America for 9/11, in a fashion similar to radical black liberationist Jeremiah Wright and radical Marxist historian Howard Zinn
There's a huge difference. Wright hates America (presumably because of its history of slavery) and he uses it to promote Marxism and tear down capitalism. Ron Paul doesn't hate America and wants to return us to true capitalism and wants our government to respect the Constitution. He points out the "blowback" associated with the U.S. not minding its own business.
Say what you want about Jeremiah Wright's crazy politics, but his "God damn America" speech was right on the money.
It would be easy to hear it in Paul's voice (except for 3 words). Read the text.
But the last three words make all the difference.
Wright: America and capitalism are and have always been evil constructions of the white man. "White America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just 'disappeared' as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns." "America is still the No. 1 killer in the world." "Capitalism as made manifest in the 'New World,'depended upon slave labor, and it is only maintained by keeping the 'Two-Thirds World' under oppression."
Paul: America's interventions abroad have potential to create blowback, and, according to the CIA and the 9/11 Commission, this phenomenon is related to what happened on 9/11/01.
"I believe very sincerely that the CIA is correct when they teach and talk about blowback. When we went into Iran in 1953 and installed the shah, yes, there was blowback. A reaction to that was the taking of our hostages and that persists. And if we ignore that, we ignore that at our own risk. If we think that we can do what we want around the world and not incite hatred, then we have a problem. They don't come here to attack us because we're rich and we're free. They come and they attack us because we're over there. I mean, what would we think if we were ?if other foreign countries were doing that to us?"
That's why I said, "say what you want about his crazy politics."
Here's the quote: "And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent fairly, she failed. She put them on reservations. When it came to treating her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in internment prison camps. When it came to treating her citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains, the government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton field, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America ? that's in the Bible ? for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent.."[21][22][23][24]
It all seems pretty factually accurate to me.
Yeah. I'm down with it, too.
(And you're "Slapdick McGee. Well don't that just beat all, so to speak.)
We're all citizens of African descent?*
*Not counting the anthropological fact that at some point we all came from Africa a couple of hundred thousand years ago.
"FACT: Ron Paul said he doesn't care if the Iranians obtain a nuclear weapon"
-World leaders have ignored Iran, and many other unstable countries obtaining nuclear weapons; other than Israel assassinating a few replaceable scientists, destroying buildings , and interfering with computers
"FACT: Ron Paul will slash our military budget to the bone, leaving us vulnerable and projecting an image of weakness to rising authoritarian state that threaten freedom like China and Russia"
-Our projecting an image of weakness is a well-established saga; no one doubts the US can, and will defend itself if it needs to do so.
"FACT: Ron Paul will abandon Israel to her terrorist foes"
-Hmm, that has also been in the works; it is just a matter of time, and Israel is preparing for that consequent
"FACT: Ron Paul blamed America for 9/11, in a fashion similar to radical black liberationist Jeremiah Wright and radical Marxist historian Howard Zinn"
-Was he holding us responsible? Or, reiterating what Muslims countries, and many others outside North America believe? If they believe it; is it not somewhat true; albeit it is not justifiable?
In other words, we all know they see our political, and military interference has an act of war, and they responded to their perception. Since we are aware of their thinking, however unjust, are we the catalyst for violence though are known but yet unintended consequences?
"FACT: Ron Paul stated the killing of Osama bin Laden was "illegal" and an "assassination"
Ron Paul: Too Extreme for America"
-Osama assassinated; whether it was legal, or not, is subject to scholarly interpretation; regardless of righteousness.
Is Paul just as dangerous as every other politician? Less so, because he voices unsaid things in a politically cautious world? Should Americans only hear what they choose to ?
Re: Lying imbecile,
Especially those that are so well armed that they resort to homemade rockets.
World, meet yet another collectivist asshole that conflates the US government with the whole country.
I laugh at your use of the word Marxist as it is devoid of any sense of irony - in your case.
Oh, noes! Not an image of weakness! Because everybody knows that running multiple endless, pointless wars all over the world makes you look real strong.
Here's a brief quiz:
1. In which of the following positions would we be better able to defend ourselves against a legitimate threat from a "rising authoritarian state" such as China or Russia, as you suggest?
a) When our military is actively fighting several undeclared and/or objective-free and indefinite wars in various Third World shitholes, and we are paying hundreds of billions per year to sustain said indefinite conflicts.
b) When our military forces are, instead of babysitting a bunch of stinking towelheads who enjoy blowing each other up, training at home or on military bases in relatively safe and friendly territory, and actively defending America against threats.
"a bunch of stinking towelheads"
Oh sweetheart
You can't be God - you SugarFreed the link.
http://achewood.com/index.php?date=12082005
Saying 80% of what the federal government does is stupid, destructive and wasteful would be correct. Saying it is "unconstitutional" just makes Paul look like the nut his enemies claim he is.
First, saying it is "unconstitutional" says does nothing to make the case of it being bad. Maybe some good ideas are unconstitutional. And maybe if so many good things are against the Constitution perhaps the Constitution or more accurately Paul's goofball interpretation of it isn't so good.
Now of course those things Paul is talking about are more than just "unconstitutional" whatever that means, they are really destructive and wasteful. But Paul doesn't seem to want to make that argument.
Every time I want to like the guy he proves himself a fruit loop.
What are you talking about? It's not his "interpretation", it's the plain text of the constitution, specifically article 1 section 8 that spells out the only powers that the federal government is legally supposed to have.
That "plain text" is plain to like 5% of the people who read it. Everyone else looks at the Constitution and considers it not so plain. This argument has been going on since Hamilton and Jefferson. Who is right? Depends on what you want. But it is anything but clear and really in the end up to the American people as a whole to decide what they think it means. To dismiss the whole think as "it is just obvious" is both lazy and insulting and goes a long ways to explaining why so few Libertarians are taken seriously.
While there are many points of quibbling and you are correct that what the American people think is the ultimate decider, the only way anyone could read the Constitution as justifying most government action is by lawyers who like to obfuscate language until it doesn't mean anything and people that like to argue that Sauron was the protagonist of the LotR. Everyone else either simply doesn't care or is just plain dishonest.
There was no protagonist in LotR. Leaving Tom Bombadil out proves it.
It's not written in complicated language. They even added the Bill of Rights including the 9th and 10th amendments to be perfectly clear about the meaning. I really am just perplexed by people who go around "interpreting" it to mean whatever they want.
I really am just perplexed by people who go around "interpreting" it to mean whatever they want.
There's nothing perplexing about it.
The Constitution created a limited government. There are many who want unlimited government. They want to use the government as an instrument of plunder. They want their free shit.
Reading the plain language of the document for what it says doesn't allow them to do this, so they must apply some creativity.
That "plain text" is plain to like 5% of the people who read it. Everyone else looks at the Constitution and considers it not so plain.
If it ain't plain then either you are stupid or your public school failed you.
Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
The constitution was written by some of the most brilliant thinkers of their generation. It was written plainly and simply for a good reason - to make it absolutely clear what was allowed and what wasn't.
"This argument has been going on since Hamilton and Jefferson. Who is right?"
Obviously Jefferson was right. Hamilton won, and look at where we are.
Saying it is "unconstitutional" just makes Paul look like the nut his enemies claim he is.
What is nuts about it? Agreeing with Madison on what certain clauses meant makes you nuts? How? Madison wrote (most) of the fucking thing, I think he has a pretty decent clue to what they meant by it.
If Madison says you cant pay for roads or canals under the commerce clause, then that IS WHAT THE FUCKING COMMMERCE CLAUSE MEANS.
That seems like a fucking sane position to me.
No. If the American people decide through the collective wisdom of elections and judges that it means just the opposite, that is what it means.
Go win a God damned argument sometime rather than just appealing to authority. Even Madison would not say he was the final authority on the meaning of the document.
No.
We can change the constituion via the amendment process, but we cant via elections or judges. It means what it meant in 1787 (subject to amendments).
Period. End of story.
Yes, and thank you.
I can quote you the text, its fucking obvious what it means. If you dont want Madions, I will quote Art 1, Sect 8.
Its still an appeal to authority, but in this case, the text of the constitution IS THE FUCKING AUTHORITY.
Appealing to it is no kind of fallacy whatsoever.
It is what it is. Even when judges disagree.
The meaning of those words is hardly obvious or inarguable. In fact they are so arguable that the country has spent the last 200 years have just such an argument with your side consistently convincing no one.
Hence my appeal to what the fucking author said about them. It provides clarity.
But somehow that doesnt work for you.
Madison's veto of federal public works bill.
You tell me where he gets the constitution wrong.
Last paragraph makes some things clear. Madions thinks the stuff in the bill is a good idea, but to pass the bill would damage the constitution.
I am not unaware of the great importance of roads and canals and the improved navigation of water courses, and that a power in the National Legislature to provide for them might be exercised with signal advantage to the general prosperity. But seeing that such a power is not expressly given by the Constitution, and believing that it can not be deduced from any part of it without an inadmissible latitude of construction and reliance on insufficient precedents; believing also that the permanent success of the Constitution depends on a definite partition of powers between the General and the State Governments, and that no adequate landmarks would be left by the constructive extension of the powers of Congress as proposed in the bill, I have no option but to withhold my signature from it, and to cherishing the hope that its beneficial objects may be attained by a resort for the necessary powers to the same wisdom and virtue in the nation which established the Constitution in its actual form and providently marked out in the instrument itself a safe and practicable mode of improving it as experience might suggest.
Madison may not be the final authority, but he deserves a better rebuttal than "ha ha, I got more votes, so shut up!"
By that standard, the standard of votes, what do you think of the elected officials (like Paul) who seem to be picking up votes with a Madisonian constitutional vision? If the voters approved, would Madison's views become valid again?
No. The rebuttal is that the opposite view won out. And the opposite view is legitimate too. At some point the argument gets settled. It is what it is. If you want to get rid of those programs, get rid of them. But realistically we are never going back to the totally restrictive view of the Constitution. So using that as an argument against these programs is just pissing in the wind.
You seem to agree that the Constitution is politically up for grabs. Anyway, it is. Using Madison's name and promoting Madison's views actually has some political staying power. In the church/state field, judges claim to be upholding Madison's constitutional theories - and they are closer to Madison's theories than to the actual constitution.
So we see it's possible to be loyal to Madison, even today, in the context of separating church and state - more than other founders may have allowed.
So why not be loyal to Madison when it comes to improper govt spending?
How is one form of deference to Madison respectable but other forms aren't?
Because one form lines pockets and the other doesn't.
""But realistically we are never going back to the totally restrictive view of the Constitution. So using that as an argument against these programs is just pissing in the wind.""
I execpt that agrument to show up on why Obamacare is constitutional.
except scalia, thomas, most of the federalist society and many others....
John Madison: Too Dangerous for America!
John Madison needed constitutional scholars like John and men from Yale to explain to himself what he really meant.
doh... James madison..
+1
Who the hell is John Madison?
Some guy that wrote in old-timey language from like a hundred years ago.
Is John James' brother? I think he had a beer with name on it.
his, his name on it.
^John embracing the living constitution^
In a way yes. I think that the Constitution does mean something. I don't think it should be subject to the whims of judges. But, like any document, the meaning of the words is hardly unambiguous. And the final meaning of those words within that ambiguity is up to the body politic.
Could it mean what Rob says it does? Sure. Does it have to mean that? No. It is a fine line. I am not saying we invent things that are not there. But it is hardly clear to me that the Constitution has only one obvious and undeniable meaning.
is hardly unambiguous.
yeah, I get fucking confused between that whole Intra vs Inter all the time.... [facepalm] Jesus....
No, but some meanings sure seem to be more workable than others. We've tried many of the unworkable ones.
If the problem is in the constitution, we can amend it. That's what they did when they realized booze was constitutional - they made it unconstitutional by amendment. Then they made it constitutional again.
Now we have to listen to the *supporters* or prohibition say, "if a state wants to legalize MJ, it needs federal permission! Are you some kind of militia nut?"
Ive never understood this.
Its clear cut and obvious based on even John's insane* views of the constitution, that to outlaw a drug on the federal level REQUIRES an Amendment. Its not like prohibition wasnt within the progessive era either, so it was clear at the time.
*yes, I went there.
They can outlaw drugs that cross interstate lines. They can outlaw drugs that are imported into the country. They just can't outlaw drugs created at home for your own personal use.
""They just can't outlaw drugs created at home for your own personal use.""
If the majority believes, and courts agree, then the constitution allows it.
If the precedent does it, that means it's not illegal.
But according to you, since elections and judges have said they can do the latter, then the constitution says that too.
Raich says otherwise
Ohhhh. So it should just be left up to 50% plus 1? Got it. Tyranny of the Majority FTW!
If the American people decide through the collective wisdom of elections and judges that it means just the opposite, that is what it means.
Then if they are that god damn stupid, then I am going to help flush the fucking toliet. I mean really. If you can just make yes mean no... what the fuck is the point of haveing a constitution in the first place? This kind of fucking stupidity is where you get "secret interpretations" from...
We are not making Yes mean no. We are saying that within the realm of possible interpretations, this is the one we want. That is not inventing things.
You guys are just screaming "our way or else". Well fuck you. You are not dictators. Last I looked we lived in a democracy.
I do believe that the Raich decision destroyed the rule of non-contradiction as pointed out by the Pedophile Justice Clarence Thomas. If inter and intra are interchangalbe, then yes.... yes can mean no.
Last I looked, we live in a CONSTITUTIONAL republic and that still means what it fucking means, defined fucking limits on government no matter what the People want to ram through via their elected officials.
Says you. I don't think it means that. Why are you right and I am wrong?
Right? Wrong? Who cares? All those words are hard to understand and are completely interchangeable. Maybe it depend on what the meaning of is is.
God damn John. Raich allowed for the regulation of completley intrastate regulation using a fucking clause that only allows for the regulation of INTERstate regulation. [double facepalm].
No bones, god damn it. We only live in a constitutional republic if "in the collective wisdom of the elections and judges" say that our alleged constitutional republic is indeed a constitutional republic.
My bad.
No, its a republic (of course, idiots like thoreau at highclearing.com think one is an idiot for reminding people who should know better).
The language of the second amendment does not admit of any exceptions.
It means exactly what it means. No credible argument can be made for the proposition that the second amendment is subject to reasonable regulation.
It is black and white. Period.
Oh really. So the 2nd Amendment means that there are no exceptions? So anyone, including felons, the mentally ill can buy any weapon they want at any time?
Come on Mike. It is not that simple. And to claim otherwise makes Libertarians and Paulites look like nuts. I agree with you guys on most things. But I still think this is a bridge too far/.
It is not that simple.
With federalism it is.
Yes, that is what the Second Amendment means. If it so obvious to everyone that restrictions should be placed on felons or the mentally ill (defined by whom?) it should be easy to amend the Constitution to have restrictions.
I'm sure the collective wisdom of our betters will define all of us as mentally ill by the end of next week. Fast and Furious was just a waste of time. All we needed to do was define mentally ill as anyone who disagrees with Obama! Brilliant, MNG John. Just fucking brilliant.
If they wanted to exclude people, they could have easily written those exclusions in the amendment. Or we could amend the Constitution to exclude them.
Is possible to argue two contra positions, 1. What you believe, (natural rights for example) 2. What is in the practical sense. (rights via law)
While I think Obamacare is unconstitutional, courts may rule the other way. Therefore being constitutional in the practical sense.
I think John is arguing for the practical since that's what really affects us. What we believe is largely irrelevant, practically speaking.
In that light, the Constitution IS a living document beyond the founding fathers concept of living document via amendments because that's what it has become.
While I accept the practical realities, I loath the philosophy that allows it to be.
When the citizenry turns this country into a shithole, it becomes a shithole.
I also must note that when the Constitution is a living document, one's oath is no longer to the Constitution, but to lawmakers and judges.
""I also must note that when the Constitution is a living document, one's oath is no longer to the Constitution, but to lawmakers and judges.""
Perhaps I should say, the oath becomes to themselves.
"When the citizenry turns this country into a shithole, it becomes a shithole"
Now you are catching on Vic. The Constitution was never designed to save us from ourselves. IF you want to change things, win an argument. Running around with the Constitution as some kind of magic talisman capable of making the country into something the vast majority do not want is idiocy.
I've caught on long ago. I've stated many of times that we get the government we deserve.
""The Constitution was never designed to save us from ourselves.""
It sort of was in a limited, yet long gone way. The only way a citizen played a factor back then was via their Congressman. The state had a stake that wasn't subject to the will of the people since the people didn't vote for the Senate. So there was a checks and balances of sorts. But since we have moved away from being a republic by allowing the citizenry to vote for the President and Senators, we have usurped the mechanism the did, some what, save us from ourselves (majority).
Our founders did the best they could at saving us from ourselves, that's why they choose a republic over a democracy, but in a free society you can't do much. They knew it.
""IF you want to change things, win an argument.""
Winning an argument doesn't change shit unless its in a court of law.
""Running around with the Constitution as some kind of magic talisman capable of making the country into something the vast majority do not want is idiocy.""
That's what liberals tell me.
"shall not be infringed" is pretty unambiguous.
If you cannot trust a man with a weapon, how can you trust him to walk the streets?
---"Last I looked we lived in a democracy."---
Ummm, Republic.
"You are not dictators."
Really? You want to go with Tony's talking points? Wanting people to be free to make their own choices = Not allowing other people to make choices for them = DICTATORS!!? That's what you're going with?
MNG, what have you done with John?
Minge is the ultimate utilitarian, Tony is the democracy fetish guy. I'd say John is channeling Tony right now.
Tony is only a democracy fetish guy when his guy wins.
John|12.29.11 @ 1:29PM|#
Tony is only a democracy fetish guy when his guy wins.
It's like rain on your wedding day, or a free ride when you've already paid
No. If the American people decide through the collective wisdom of elections and judges that it means just the opposite, that is what it means.
So all the people who don't want to play Orwellian/Humpty-Dumpty word games are the crazy ones? Gotcha. Enjoy your sanity.
through the collective wisdom of elections and judges
now that is some funny shit. Stupid, insane shit, but still funny shit.
Go read Hayek sometime Troy. There is such a thing called collective wisdom. Many Libertarians are just as bad as liberals in their undying faith that things will be great if we just get the right people in charge.
Hayek's collective wisdom, or rather, spontaneous order, is not the same thing you're implying with election mandates and judicial orders.
And the idea that libertarians believe things will be better with the "right people" in charge just goes to show you know absolutely nothing about Hayek or libertarianism. Or you're just trolling. Either way, meh.
Many Libertarians are just as bad as liberals in their undying faith that things will be great if we just get the right people in charge.
I don't define myself as a libertarian so much BUT, things WILL be great when the right people (me) are put in charge of something sufficiently small enough to be controlled (myself). Once the group gets larger than 10 or so the person "in charge" will generally not be able to make the best individual decision for all of the "followers".
No. If the American people decide through the collective wisdom of elections and judges that it means just the opposite, that is what it means.
Thanks for donning your TEAM BLUE clothing there, John.
If the "collective wisdom" is that the constitution means Obama can order John's execution without a jury trial or due process or even any evidence of a crime, are you OK with that?
The constitution means what it actually says, not what the majority or a judge decides they wish it said.
You could make the same argument for "stupid," "destructive," and "wasteful" as you could "unconstitutional". To defend terms one must invoke some authority.
So if the voters and judges (without amending the Constitution) decide that free speech against Obama is illegal, are you gonna be fine with it?
Or if they outlaw all modern firearms because they "interpret" the 2A to mean only flintlocks, will you say it's OK?
How about when they vote that cops can enter your home sans warrant when they feel like it for your safety? You gonna be fine then as well.
How about this: Fuck you, John. Die In A Fire.
Sloopy
If the vast majority of the people in this country decided that, nothing would stop them. We would be fucked. We are only as good as our society. You people just like to jerk off pretending otherwise.
I'll tell you what will stop them: the number of people who arm themselves.
Hell, it's all that's stopping them now.
So you pretty much agree with John. Settled.
No. If the American people decide through the collective wisdom of elections and judges that it means just the opposite, that is what it means.
So if we all "agree" that fire is really water, we can stick our faces in it?
Dumbo called and he wants his magic feather back.
"If the American people decide through the collective wisdom of elections and judges that it means just the opposite, that is what it means."
If that were the case, there would be no need for Article 5.
Jesus John, listen to yourself. You are making the same argument as your Team Blue archenemy...that the Constitution is a living, breathing document that evolves to mean whatever we want it to mean. Which, if true, would mean it means nothing.
Escape this thread while you can.
We've had two presidents who were teachers of constitutional law in law school. They would agree with you that not only is the federal government's activity constitutional - except when it limits partial-birth abortion - but that the federal government needs to be doing *more.*
Even without the legal training of Bill Clinton and Obama (or *because* he doesn't have that training), Paul has a much better perspective on the Constitution. A majority of the federal govt's activities involve undeclared wars, distributing money for unauthorized purposes, regulating intrastate activities in the name of interstate commerce, imposing prior restraint on health claims on products...I think we're getting up to the 80% figure already.
It's perfectly legitimate to say that the federal govt's power grabs (with notable exceptions like the income tax) were so blatant that the perpetrators never bothered to get a constitutional amendment legalizing their handiwork.
The idea that the feds can't build so much as a road because it doesn't say so in the Constitution is something that maybe one person out of a hundred will believe. It is an argument that has convinced almost no one in the history of this country.
Now, I leave it to you to decide what is and what is not nuts. But clinging to an idea no one believes, is unnecessary to accomplish your ends, and causes a large number of people not to take you seriously, is getting pretty close to mad.
It can build roads. Postal roads are explicitly covered.
So either growing your own MJ for your own use is interstate commerce - or else the feds can't build roads?
That strikes me as extreme either/or thinking (especially since the Constitution explicitly authorizes post roads, as well as explicitly authorizing an army which, presumably, will need roads to go on).
Do you think it's a seamless tapestry such that if you challenge the regulatory state or undeclared wars, we have to close down all bridges?
But to say "80% of what the federal government does is unconstitutional" requires a view of the Constitution a hell of a lot more restrictive than the Lockner Court or any court in American history.
If you ask me if the commerce clause means actual interstate commerce, I will agree with you. But that doesn't rule out 80% of what the feds do.
I haven't calculated the figure, but I imagine that when we add up three undeclared wars and corresponding spending and "antiterror" laws, criminalizing domestic agriculture, adulterating the currency, etc., etc., we would at least pass the 50% mark.
Iraq and Afghanistan were declared wars. Sorry but when the Congress votes and tells the President to go to war, that is a declaration of war for Constitutional purposes.
You want to call Libya an undeclared war, go for it. But to call Iraq and Afghanistan (one of which is over) undeclared wars is just being pedantic and will win you no supporters.
House members specifically voted *down* a proposal to declare war on Iraq. (Guess who proposed that, by the way?). They said that U.S.A. is too sophisticated to declare war any more. The difference between a declaration of war and other ways of getting into war was sufficiently clear-cut that members of Congress were able to specifically reject it. Now it's a bit much to say that the distinction Congress found so important doesn't actually matter.
Plus, they didn't tell the President to go to war, they said, "go ahead if you feel like it, and if it doesn't work out we'll tell the voters that we never approved the war!"
No wonder they voted down a proposal to actually declare war - it would have involved taking responsibility, as required by the plain terms of the Constitution.
No. considering how much the federal leviathan has grown since Lochner... it may well appear 80%...
It doesn't mean actual commerce. It only applies to regulations passed by the states that inhibit that commerce.
I think then you'd have to ask him on each issue whether or not he thinks something is good or bad. Just saying X is unconstitutional does not make him a fruit loop even if X is good. If it's good, he's the kind of guy that would push for an amendment rather than just pass a law that still can be challenged in court.
When you claim 80% of everything the feds do is unconstitutional, you are claiming every President and Congress and Supreme Court for the last hundred years has been completely wrong and you are completely right.
Even if you are right, when you claim as much, you look like a fruit loop.
No, claiming one is NOT AT ALL claiming the other. It could be just pointing out proceedural missteps. It could be, if pressed, that he thinks they just needed to do what they did differently based on the rule of the land.
Many of the most sane men in history looked like fruit loops.
Most of the presidents and congresses for the last 150 or so years have violated the constitution left and right. Why is that so crazy to say?
Remember: THE MAJORITY IS ALWAYS WRONG.
Good. Have fun being a Casandra. But don't expect to ever win any elections. You don't want to be Casandra. The Trojans didn't listen to her.
"you are claiming every President and Congress and Supreme Court for the last hundred years has been completely wrong and you are completely right."
I claim that a *majority* of Congress and the court consistently has been getting things wrong, not by coincidence, but because they have an institutional interest in boosting federal power. And the states have been bought off into not objecting, thanks to having the IRS do much of their tax collecting for them (revenue sharing, or whatever it's called now).
There has been a minority in Congress and the Court pointing out the clothless condition of the emperor, but I suppose they were all fruit loops, as well.
But they should have.
Huh, that was in response to the Casandra comment. Stupid squirrels.
I will never give up undeclared wars (NEVER!) so I have to defend all the other shit, too.
Even if you are right, when you claim as much, you look like a fruit loop.
So BEING correct isn't as important as APPEARING to be correct.
Our resident Team Red spokesman, ladies (all three of you) and gentlemen.
Re: John,
But it is unconstitutional, John. Who is being a nut, the person that points out the fact or the people that place their fingers on their ears and sing "La! La! La! Can't hear you! La! La! La!"?
saying it is "unconstitutional" says does nothing to make the case of it being bad.
It certainly is bad whenever a person or group usurps the rights of another. Whenever the government acts unconstitutionally, it does precisely that.
Welcome to the reluctant Paulist club. Here's your decoder ring.
"What do Sullum, Blitzer, Borger, Frum, Rabinowitz, Mantell, and others have in common?
They are all jews who have anglicized their names?
I don't think Rabinowitz is anglicized.
I would be willing to bet, however, that they're all circumcized.
Pictures or it didn't happen
I have no desire to see Borger's circumcision, thank you very much.
so then by default, Sullum, Blitzer, Frum, Rabinowitz, Mantell's cut would be desirable?
I was having trouble choosing your Chanukah gift 😉
So, you are for female circumcision, rather? That disgusts me.
FWIW, I am not circumcised.
PROVE IT BORGER!
This just reminds me of one of my favorite holiday songs, "Give Da Jew Girl Toys":
I chuckle every time someone says what's bad about Ron Paul when those are the things I like about him. I don't chuckle when the simply lie because some idiot will surely believe them.
Why do the do this? Are they ashamed of their heritage?
I'm not sure what heritage you are referring to. Did the squirrels misplace your comment?
He was referring to their shady squirrel heritage.
The original comment appears to have been deleted which is why this doesn't make sense. Sloppy censors.
Frank Zappa approved alt-text.
Jonah Goldberg:
Jonah Goldberg is an idiot.
I will say it again: anyone who supports the war on drugs is a racist bigot. There is proof of their bigotry. And no one is making a fucking big deal out of it.
Goldberg never let racist use his biline to sully his name, reputation and ultimately sink his national political ambitions. Someone else did. Paul is a fucking idiot for ever associating with Rothbard and allowing him to use his byline.
john's in fine lib form today.
You mean Rothbard the jew? I understand the angst over the newsletters but the anti-semite claims are absurd. If anything I would say that Paul was too cozy with Rothbard in his later years too. It just shows how insane race baiting has gotten. He must be a neo-nazi because they support him even though he idolizes Mises and Rothbard! Absurd.
I never said Rothbard was an Anti-Semite. I said he was a racist. And Goldberg makes good points. Either Paul is lying or he was a complete fool. Who lets other people write shit in your name and then reads what they are printing? No one.
You can make a bad business decision without being a complete fool.
Almost all businessmen fail at least once until they find their fit. Publishing wasn't his.
It wasn't a bad business decision. He apparently made money off of it. And yeah, you are a complete fool if you let other people write stuff in your name without reading it. And no one does that. Paul is just lying when he says he didn't know what was in the letters. His wife worked at the publication for Christ sake.
Maybe his wife wrote all this crap and that's why he hasn't said who wrote them. He's protecting her? I mean, she would be First Lady. He WILL NOT get elected if it ever comes out that she wrote them but they can avoid to varying degrees forever if people assume it was the Rockwell/Rothbard combo platter of provocation.
HE needs to stop lying and insulting my intelligence and explain the damn things.
You really think he read them all cover to cover? Seems unlikely.
I think that if he DIDN'T read every issue cover-to-cover (which is his current story), he's a fucking moron. Goldberg's right: You read what gets published under your name. You are completely and totally responsible for it. Period.
EVERYBODY DOES THAT. It's called ghost writing.
And if you hire a racist to ghostwrite your autobiography, and he writes about how you founded your local chapter of the KKK, and you let it go out under your name without reading it, you are, in fact, a moron. Seriously, we're arguing about this?
Hey news flash: He has taken responsibility for them going out. Dipshit.
Obama, Newt and Mitt and plain and upfront with their bigotry, although Obama tried to lie about it during the last campaign.
Goldberg never let racist use his biline to sully his name
He just did it himself.
[citation needed]
"Let me clear the underbrush by once again pointing out that this magazine [National Review] is editorially opposed to the drug war and has been for a long time. Meanwhile, I still favor keeping hard narcotics and other addictive substances ? coke, meth, heroin etc ? illegal, but I am in favor of the decriminalization of pot."- Jonah Goldberg
Doesn't sound "idiotic" to me, even if it's not your preferred drug policy.
It does to me. Drug cartels would still be profiting off of all those drugs including pot (decriminalization =/= legalization).
Sounds like a racist to me. The only justifications for the WoD is racism. All supporters of it are bigots. ALL.
If you'd care to follow the link, robc:
sometimes makes it sound like blacks are involved in the drug trade because, well, that's what blacks do
What kind of nonsense is this? Blacks make up a disproportionate amount of drug arrests and imprisonment for drug related crimes. These stats are readily available to anyone.
Why was more talking about why the laws originally passed than the outcome (although that is a part). Whether opium dens or the jazz==marijuana connections, all the laws were racist in origin. Then you get the crack/cocaine thing. Then, of course, the incarceration differences.
Meanwhile, the drug war ? despite the many authentic tragedies it produces ? doesn't set out to punish blacks because they are black. It sets out to punish people who sell (and to a lesser extent buy) drugs and use violence to protect their trade.
And bullshit. It set out to keep blacks/chinese from sleeping with white womens.
For example:
"many women and young girls, as well as young men of respectable family, were being induced to visit the Chinese opium-smoking dens, where they were ruined morally and otherwise."
Yeah, while its chinese not black in this particular case, that doesnt fit your criteria at all. They set out to punish chinese for being chinese.
"[Marijuana] Makes darkies think they're as good as white men." ?H.J. Anslinger, Bureau of Narcotics
"Negro entertainers with their jazz and swing music are declared an outgrowth of marihuana use which possesses white women to tap their feet." ?statements to Congress by Anslinger, FBN
It is idiotic, Richard. Prohibition inherently makes an otherwise peaceful and victimless activity a crime. That helps no one and potentially hurts everyone involved.
^^THIS!^^
I support pot legalization. Crack, meth, and heroin are not getting legalized anytime soon, here in the real world. Calling a policy that would decriminalize pot while keeping the rest illegal "idiotic" is not going to win friends and influence either politicians or voters. It's called making the perfect the enemy of the good.
Now, alienating 90% of the electorate--that would be "idiotic."
I made a reasoned argument to convince YOU using language YOU already presented. I'm not looking to make friends. I am merely looking to convince YOU that perhaps you have not considered the problems inherent in the prohibition of some drugs. Feel free to dispute what I said. Or don't. No sweat off my nads.
Arguing about whether heroin and crack should be legalized is like arguing whether Dumbledore is more powerful than Gandalf. Today, I'm sticking with the real world.
Ah, the old "serious grownups don't talk about real change to drug laws" position. Nice.
Legalizing what is, far and away, the most commonly used illegal drug would be a "real" change in drug laws. On that day, I will not lose sleep over the fact that crack is still illegal.
Well, seeing as Dumbledore died and Gandalf fought the Balrog all the way to hell and came out of it more powerful than before, I'm gonna have to go with Gandalf.
Yep, Gandolf the White FTW.
Agreed.
I'm gonna go "Aslan."
Aslan doesn't even have a wand, let alone a staff.
But he died and was resurected without explanation. However, let's restrict the argument to Humanoids.
OK. What about Guinan? Or Q for that matter.
Of course not, it's a PG movie.
Not since Birth of a Nation has it been PC to go to the movies and cheer a wizard in white robes.
Gandalf the Grey died, too.
I thought NRO was against the WOD? It's like their only saving grace - their bigotry and racism is pretty clear from articles on numerous other topics.
NRO is "bigoted" and "racist" based on what? They oppose affirmative action? What libertarian doesn't?
Links, please.
(I'm guessing I can save you the time: They're bigoted because they like the traditional definition of marriage, the fact they support the WOT proves they hate Muslims, and the fact they oppose an open-boarders immigration policy proves they hate Mexicans. If that's all it takes to be "racist" and "bigoted," there's no way you can vote for Ron Paul.)
Did National Review, in the early/mid 90s, run a positive review of Paved With Good Intentions? Has National Review repudiated its positive remarks of this "racist" book? After all, it was a whole article, not 4 sentences out of thousands.
Never heard of the book, but it's got a number of 5 star reviews on Amazon, and the product description sounds pretty mainstream to me. Nowhere near as bad as the newsletters.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/.....etail?pd=1
You want NR to disavow a 20 year old book review?
NRO is "bigoted" and "racist" based on what?
Richard, we've had a lot of trolls among these parts, but this last post has to be the stupidest fucking thing I've ever read. I'm going to destroy your stupid argument and hopefully send you back to RedState or Free Republic or whichever dipshit site that has the burden of your presence.
An unsigned National Review editorial on October 28, 1983 remarked about MLK day "it rankles that we should be asked to take the day off to remember a man whose career was built on leisure. (The GNP, after all, is not produced by people marching in the streets)."
"Perhaps MLK Day should be celebrated only by the gainfully employed, and all those on welfare should be required to collect their checks as usual."
In an early, August 1957 editorial National Review asked the question of whether "the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally . . . " "The sobering answer is Yes ? the White community is entitled because . . . it is the advanced race."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dil.....zo223.html
Any damning quotes more recent than 28 years ago? The poster I was responding to said "NRO" (National Review Online) was racist. Have you got anything since Al Gore invented the Interwebs?
Any damning quotes more recent than 28 years ago?
One might ask something similar regarding the RP newsletter. The 'racist' angle is fading fast, due to the absence of any other factors that would most likely be present if RP was, in fact, a racist.
The new meme now focuses on RP's 'judgement', and whether someone who has made an error such as that could ever be POTUS.
Such a lack of judgement would, of course, call for the immediate impeachment of Obama, due to his unfathomable incompetence.
But then again, none of this is about fitness for office. It's just protection of established income streams.
Can we agree that no one who wrote or published the NR editorials in question is running for president, or claiming that he never read what was published under his name?
I'm not voting for Paul, and I assure you, I've got no "income stream" at stake.
Can we agree that no one who wrote or published the NR editorials in question is running for president, or claiming that he never read what was published under his name?
Sure, but you didn't argue that. Your argument was that the printed opinions cited in NR (that you do not refute) are effectively neutralized by the passage of time - in effect, you are claiming that the publication differs substantially now than it did then, and that the failure to find similar opinions in the more recent past should negate the assertion that the basis for those ideas are present in the publication today. Exactly my point about the Paul campaign. (Which is why the racist charge is fading)
Your claimed point of the importance of running for "President" is belied by your inability to account for various errors in judgement by those running opposite Paul, as well as the current President. Unbelievably, it's as though none of the other politicians has ever made an error in judgement.
I assure you, I've got no "income stream" at stake.
Then you're a fool, as the current status quo is unsustainable, "more of the same" is simply no longer an option.
No, they're too busy writing about how inferior blacks are to the other races.
No, they're bigoted because they can't be bothered to deal with the individual, only the group.
Of course, there's also the fact that there's no logical connection between anything libertarians say and hating black people to consider.
The lefties are trying to convince themselves and others that the connection lies in some views that libertarians and the old "southern strategy" conservatives share regarding a smaller government.
The fact that the modern left probably shares a larger portion of the "southern strategy" conservatives' views (WoD, gun control, crony capitalism, etc.) escapes them. Here is an example.
Jonah Goldberg's blather
Bitch all you want, young man. The Newcular Titties fad is over and done.
What do Ayn Rand, Ludwig von Mises, Milton Friedman have in common?
They have never been in my kitchen?
They're all dudes, right? I mean, Ayn looks like a dude in the photos.
Mises once said something about Rand's manliness, which she took as the highest compliment. However, this never led to rough, unconsented sex, so he was apparently irrational.
She's the one who taught me no really does mean yes.
+Cheers
Something to do with contaminated wells?
And Leonard Peikoff, Nathaniel Branden (nee Blumenthal), Yaron Brook, Peter Schwartz, Alex Epstein...
He's still going to win Iowa.
Ron Paul will need the job according to this trend.
http://i288.photobucket.com/al.....-29DZZ.jpg
(double short gold chart)
Oh, and isn't the goal of liberalism and Christianity supposed to be the same? And yet Obama and Romney's far more recent patronage of racist churches, and Santorum's blatant homophobia somehow isn't an issue. Let's be honest, the is all about Isreal and nothing else.
I still don't think Paul can win (more's the pity).
But at least I can take great pleasure in all the pants-shitting he's causing this go 'round.
And it doesn't seem like Paultards are going away, God bless them.
I agree with Jacob 100%, but only because his writings are so obviously anti-fatty-fat-fats.
Ron Paul will win nothing.
His Foreign Policy is silly and retarded, aka it's leftist. He believes the US is always a force for bad in the world; that the US should never strike unless it's struck first; any attack on the US is merely blowback for previous sins and such an attack mustn't be met with a counterattack.
Oh, and I love it. The newsletters mean nothing, but Americans who want to halt ILLEGAL immigration (of all races, creeds and colors) are racist.
Paultards are just as bad as Obamatards.
On the contrary- he believes the US is a great good in the international community. Through free trade- not military intervention.
Nation building is a progressive concept. See Obama and Bush, two progressives, who continue to implement that philosophy.
The newsletters mean nothing, but Americans who want to halt ILLEGAL immigration (of all races, creeds and colors) are racist.
Those two things are definitely both true.
Yay Paultards!
So Paul is a racist? Last I looked Paul was a big closed border guy.
but Americans who want to halt ILLEGAL immigration
PAUSE.
Ron Paul is opposed to illegal immigration, including amnesty and government programs directed towards illegal immigrants.
Paultards are just as bad as Obamatards.
Stop using your sphincter as a snorkel. It's affecting all five of your brain cells.
FACT: Ron Paul opposes a Federal Marriage Amendment that will limit marriage to its traditional definition of one man, one woman
FACT: Ron Paul was in favor of ending "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
FACT: Ron Paul's policies will undermine Judeo-Christian values
Newt: since you love your country so much, don't you have a 4th future wife to go pork or something?
I'm a Santorum supporter.
barf
How can you support a guy that's named after santorum? That's disgusting.
That explains a lot.
That explains a lot.
That explains a lot
If you let it dry santorum will stand on it's own. No need for support.
Freeze dried santorum.. Just add a little water and mix with a spoon.
lol
Isn't a santorum supporter a little cup that keeps the santorum from spilling on the floor?
Bwahahaha. Yeah, at least Santorum wants the force of law behind his Bigotry.
Of course you are.
I should hope so.
Is this trolling the troll spoof? Because all those things are GREAT!
Who even knows any more? I'm sure enjoying it though.
The more Ron Paul angers the theocrats the more I like him.
Santorum vs Paul? That would be nice.
Bullshit, shrike. You're the same one who rails against Christ-fags, so I call "spoof" on the post above.
Why wouldn't "theocrats" and "Christ-fags" be the same thing? This doesn't seem like a spoof.
I know for a fact that Paul is too Christ-faggy for people like shrike.
HAS to be a spoof.
FACT: Most of the people on this board...
1: agree with him
2: agree with him
3: don't give a shit (and think you're wrong that anything he would do would undermine those values anyway...name something)
I really don't know what you're thinking posting on a this site that Ron Paul supports gay marriage like it's a bad thing, or we didn't know. Most of us support it, if not we at least don't want government to tell us who we can marry.
Marcus Bachmann is spamming our threads.
Question: What value is there in the government's involvement in the marriage contract?
Are TEH GHEYS unable use firearms and take orders?
"Derp", you say?
This is all academic, as Drudge has been telling me that Santorum is now going to win the nomination.
Ron Paul even voiced support for allowing so-called "transgenderds" to serve openly in the military.
I should hope so.
"you don't need to be straight to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight" -Barry Goldwater
Is there a point?
FACT: Ron Paul favors the legalization of heroin and crack cocaine
I should hope so.
So you want crack rocks sold openly at the Qwik Stop across from the local middle school?
Absolutely, and make sure you include cocaine in that.
Right next to the bath salts.
Damn skippy. Should be on the shelf next to the cold beer (except in IN, which doesnt allow cold beer sales in gas stations for some reason).
Heroine wouldn't be on the same aisle as needles though. You've got to make them walk about the shelves and spend more money.
Drug dealers ID kids, but Quik Stop employees won't. MARKIT FAIL
No. I want pharmaceutical grade speed and opiates sold without a prescription. If you could get that, no one, except those too dumb to live, would be smoking crack.
""No. I want pharmaceutical grade speed and opiates sold without a prescription. If you could get that, no one, except those too dumb to live, would be smoking crack."
I'll second that.
""No. I want pharmaceutical grade speed and opiates sold without a prescription. If you could get that, no one, except those too dumb to live, would be smoking crack."
I'll second that.
I'll sneak this in here between this double post.
Slapdick McGee was me all along.
Have I ever mentioned I just love typing the words "Slapdick McGee"?
Oh, sloopyinca. Will you ever learn?
And from now on, you're "Slapdick McGee" to me.
And from now on, you're "Slapdick McGee" to me.
At least I came clean. And the reason I did it was to push libertarians to have solid arguments based on facts when confronted by new neo-cons (not just John and Tulpa, which we tend to ridicule due to familiarity), because it's important that we counter their claims with data and not with strawmen, ad hominems and screaming.
I've got to say, I'm proud of the responses I got. By and large, they were the kinds of arguments that can win people over to our side, not alienate them.
And you've got to admit, it was a pretty good sockpuppet.
First rule of H&R Never out your troll personas.
First rule of H&R Never out your troll personas.
I guess it's the second rule as well.
First rule of H&R Never out your troll personas.
Now you're belaboring the point.
""No. I want pharmaceutical grade speed and opiates sold without a prescription. If you could get that, no one, except those too dumb to live, would be smoking crack."
I'll second that.
The server thinks I should third and fourth it too.
You were speaking for a lot of us.
I just want some fucking sudafed for my fucking allergies.
You can still get them, just fill out this form in triplicate, list your sponser, and show 2 pieces of ID, then report to your local police department for a security assessment. By that time you may need something for your headache.
without showing a driver's license.
The funny thing about that comment is it's so 20th century. It's just a matter of time before transactions are done with a biometeric identifier. In a way you will be showing ID without it being a card issued by your state, for everything.
That goes to NoVAHockey's comment.
Yeah, because the dude behind the counter will card people.
Re: Lying Imbecile,
I fail tom see the connection between legalizing something and selling it across the street from schools. Alcohol is legal yet many localities forbid stores from selling it in front of schools. Why would it be any different with drugs?
One thing I learned when discussing issues with Team Red assholes is that they're even worse when it comes to logic, reason and economics than Team Blue assholes. Being even worse than Tony is nothing to be proud of, yet they wear the mental limitation badge with pride even more than the sockpuppet.
I don't think there should be location restrictions on liquor stores (or restrictions on which kind of stores can sell booze).
More relevant is that there would be an age restriction on drugs just like alcohol (which should be lowered) and a Quick Mart would be far more likely to ID than a drug dealer.
Re: Appalachian Australian,
Indeed, I would not agree to restrictions on what to do in my own property. However, the contention coming from the lying imbecile that the legalization of drugs will ipso facto mean the sale of drugs in front of schools is simply a slippery-slope fallacy. Again, I've argued with Team Red idiots and their logic is as frowsy as this guy's. Nothing to be proud of.
Sorry, I meant to write "Re: Apatheist,"
No disrespect to either. I apologize
Geez, TTARP, demagogue much?
He don't know us vewy well...do he?
Shit! He does? I guess Kent Kent Sorenson is right!
"Mr. Paul, under your admininstration, wouldn't there be heroin vending machines in public schools?"
RP: What do you mean, public schools?
Never gets old. Never.
If cocaine were legal there would be no need for crack and heroin is a result of opium dens being banned.
It's pants wetting all around. Are there any adults around?
I have to admit it is a little disconcerting to think that I agree with this guy about the best candidate seeking the Republican presidential nomination.
Exactly the weasely sort of mealy-mouthing I've come to expect from you hook-nosed Bildersberger types.
Cynthia McKinney was so right about you.
Word.
Therein lies the rub with Ron Paul: some of his supporters. I agree with some of his views, disagree with others, but the maniacal behavior of some supporters makes my skin crawl. It's like trying to talk about global warming.
OK, but whose supporters does that not go for? The maniacal behavior of some Red Sox supporters makes my skin crawl too.
The point is EVERY candidate has supporters you're not going to agree with. Every single one. Paul is being singled out because, well, he's not R or D.
It's easy to get worked up when you feel like no one's listened to you EVER and then someone comes out saying (almost) just what you've been arguing- but in a position to do something about it. Then you see all these other people agree with you too.
It's powerful. It's hard not to get maniacle.
Tebow > RP
Tebow < Tom Brady
Tom Brady > RP
Tebow < Tom Brady < Aaron Rodgers
This year. Call me when Rodgers has three rings.
Paul strikes me as a fundamentally decent, honest, and principled man who, although he may not be the ideal vessel for the libertarian message, is the closest we've ever seen, by a long shot, in a major party's presidential primaries.
Well, er, except for Gary Johnson.
The thing is I don't think Paul is responsible for his own success. He's simply the only "viable" libertarian candidate. We're all voting for him because nobody things Johnson could win the primary.
Wierd considering that Johnson isn't burdened with racist old newsletters, or intemperate sounding speech about American foreign policy. He's a sane-sounding libertarian who could actually win the general election, if he had the same machine as Paul. Depressing.
I do agree however, that the critism of Paul that goes "OMG! Neo-Nazis don't like the Fed either!" is sort of idiotic. People have investigated people that Obama has actual personal connections to, but it's not like anyone's out there going "Look! Ward Churchhill said something pro-Obama! he should be renounced immediately!"
Nobody holds Democrats responsible for the views expressed by random Occupy Wall Street supporters, so why the hell should Paul have to say anything about what some fringe christian fundamentalists think about him?
I have said before, if Paul gave a shit about advancing his political views, he would have never run for President and spent his time campaigning for Johnson. Paul fucked Johnson. There was only room for one Libertarian candidate and that was going to be Paul unless he didn't run.
Gary Johnson is pro-abort, and there's no room for support of prenatal infanticide in the GOP. Anyone who supports the genocide against the unborn is anathema.
Anathema? How long have you been waiting to pull that one out?
/Constanza'ed
Well done, my good and faithful servant.
Now kiss the ring, bitch.
This is wrong John.
Let's set aside that Johnson is a more completely open borders, pro-choice, and altogether more libertine candidate, with his own major built-in flaws for a Republican primary.
Beyond that, as much as it pains a "Love the Paul, hate the Paultard" guy like me, Paul is where he is because of his most fanatical supporters. Precisely the kind who make guys like me squirm. They're the ones who've kept a guy with little to no charisma and such indiosyncratic views alive for two election cycles. They're the ones who kept him alive by word of mouth/youtube video/internet forum despite the MSM blackout.
And those fanatical supporters are not easily transferrable to Johnson. It's precisely due to his many quirks that they support Paul. The only person they might be transferrable to is Rand, and even that's questionable.
He's a principled candidate, so you (usually) know where he's going to stand. I slightly preferred Johnson to Paul, but GJ has some WTF? views that come out of nowhere. Deontological ethics make for better consistency than consequentialist / pragmatic ethics, and people get that in an intuitive way, even if they don't get/care about the intellectual arguments.
Johnson also bad the opportunity to grab Paul supporters earlier with clear, concise debate points. His debate performances were uninspiring to say the least and Paul was on the same stage. Johnson unfortunately is not amnesty/mind winner.
Re: Hazel Meade,
Yeah, and Windows is only successful because they have a "monopoly."
I believe there are free Youtube courses in rhetoric. You should one day spend some time perusing over them, H.
The market isn't "winner take all", like the Presidential elections.
We don't just vote one one operating system that everyone has to use.
Electoral politics is skewed by the fact that most people will feel compelled to support the "most electable" candidate, rather than the one they actually prefer.
Re: Hazel Meade,
So? Your argument is that Paul's appeal resides in mere happenstance rather than his achievements, views and principles. There have been plenty of other candidates that could meet the criteria you could be looking for, like Johnson for instance, or even Huntsman. It so happens that Paul has the better ground organization, the better name recognition, the better history and even the greatest number of fucking BOOKS [which he wrote himself] than most of his contenders with the exception of Newt. And you want to seriously argue that the guy's appeal resides in being Coke with no Pepsi?
Oh, yeah, that's right. Didn't RP endorse Cynthia McKinney in '08? Wow, what judgment!
And Jonah Goldberg makes a great point in his article: Has RP ever help convert anyone to Libertarianism? Nah, but he pays it some great lip service.
Didn't RP endorse Cynthia McKinney in '08?
Did he? Citation please.
He said his supporters should vote for third parties if they want to. Apparently this equals endorsing McKinney.
Anything less than explicit rejection is considered an endorsement by certain idiots.
WASHINGTON (CNN)? [...] Paul, who unsuccessfully sought the Republican presidential nomination, will tell supporters he is not endorsing GOP nominee John McCain or Democratic nominee Barack Obama, and will instead give his seal of approval to four candidates: Green Party nominee Cynthia McKinney, Libertarian Party nominee Bob Barr, independent candidate Ralph Nader, and Constitution Party candidate Chuck Baldwin, according to a senior Paul aide.
No need to lie about what I did, Apatheist. I'm proud to have endorsed Madame Googly-Eyes!
He said vote for third parties. I am on the fence on this one. If Paul wants anyone to take him seriously, why didn't he just endorse bar and be done with it? Why say it is okay to vote for any third party when one of them is McKinney? That is not good.
He really doesn't like war. They all opposed if I'm not mistaken.
... and it had nothing whatsoever to do with my well-publicized feelings about JOOOOOOOOOOOOOS, either!
"according to a senior Paul aide.""
Not the same as Ron Paul said.
Newsletters... senior aides, during press conferences... I'm never, ever responsible for anything anyone connected to me in any capacity says. EVER.
Please elect me to the highest office in the land.
""I'm never, ever responsible for anything anyone connected to me in any capacity says. ""
Great, I'm not responsible for what other people say about me too. 😉
Especially your senior aide, during national press conferences... right? *wink*wink*
Hey... giggle all you wanna. Look how many right here are fumbling all over themselves to dry-swallow that one, on my behalf!
Re: Lying imbecile,
Did he? Because "will" is future tense.
Paul said (his words) to give a chance to third party candidates, and gave his endorsement to Chuck Baldwin, not to Cynthia McKinnley.
Again, you're nothing more than a goddamned liar. Not even reaching scum level.
Again, you're nothing more than a goddamned liar. Not even reaching scum level.
That's hardly an appropriate way to address my hand-picked senior aide, you know. Who, incidentally, could not conceivably have been speaking for me, with my express knowledge and consent, during a press conference being held specifically on the topic of MY political endorsement.
Please elect me to the highest office in the land.
Re: Lying Imbecile,
Oh, no, you can't slither your way out of this. YOU allege Paul endorsed Cynthia. The staffer only said he will (future tense). The staffer may have been wrong, but now it's 2011 and you keep driving that lie forward. YOU are nothing more than a goddamned liar, not even reach the level of scum..
Did he? Because "will" is future tense.
Fuck. That one was actually worthy of ME.
Yeah, even I'd be ashamed of trying to pull that dodge.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA you quoted him doing EXACTLY what I said. God you are a fucking scumbag.
give his seal of approval to [...] Green Party nominee Cynthia McKinney
Please stand with me (and Cynthia McKinney) as we battle against the stinking Bildersberger moneylenders.
It's a "Love Revolution" thing. Jooooo wouldn't understand.
Re: Lying Piece of Shit,
And he didn't. He gave his endorsement to Chuck. You're a lying piece of dog shit with flies.
Re: Wholly Holy Stoopid,
Like 22% of the likely caucus voters in Iowa, just for starters.
For the first time in my life, I want to kiss Kelly Clarkson.
Dude there was a like a whole thread on that.
Oh. I was working.
Like anyone here believes that croc.
Finally, you fucking slacker.
Ha! My boss is on his boat in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico fishing this week.
Reminds me of how my friend Howard Zochlinski complained on a radio show about his bad treatment by anti-semites in Calif. and Jew bastards in NY.
In preparation for each election, it's the job of Serious People to establish that everyone who's not going to wind up being elected was always unfit for office, prior to any vote. (They were just the wrong sort, you know?) It's how our elections' legitimacy is actually established.
When the vote doesn't follow the Serious path to legitimacy (e.g., BOOSH), or when it seems like maybe it won't (e.g., some not-Romney might jeopardize the Anointing of the Hair, and the GOP's status as (marginally) Serious), the Serious People?and those who aspire to Seriousness?pitch a huge bitch.
And THE WHOLE PROCESS IS CALLED INTO QUESTION!, suddenly, again.
I think of "Karl" and Goldberg (and a dozen or so other TEAM RED! types) as being above that sort of...cravenness. But I think wrong sometimes.
I think John woke up on Joe's side of the bed this morning.
Now MNG claims I only post on here to be popular.
""but the material is so at odds with his public persona and positions during the last 35 years... ""
Agreed.
They can't make case against his congressional record so they need to focus on the news letters to make him look bad.
That is how politics works.
Of course.
Even the youth support Mitt.
He he.
FACT: Ron Paul wants to change everyone's area code.
FACT: Ron Paul hates your kittens.
FACT: Ron Paul is WHITE.
FACT: Ron Paul is MALE.
I voted for Obama...He SUCKS
I changed my registration in NY State to Republican just to vote for Ron Paul in Primary.
However, my intentions are to vote for Gary Johnson for President. Which is effectively voting for Obama.
Oh well, I want a Progressive, not a Centrist. I'll have to settle for a Libertarian.
At least they'll KEEP DOPE ALIVE.
When did you change your party enrollment? It had better have been in 2010, or your vote won't count in the upcoming primary. You won't show up yet on the enrollment list as Republican at your polling place; you can ask for an affidavit ballot, but when it gets to the board of elections it won't count.
I was able to change it in town when i moved back in march 2011. I had no problem. I moved counties.
What a great spectacle to watch the chickenhawk/banker bailout agenda crashes and burns as the American voters awaken to Dr Ron Paul. "When the student is ready the teacher appears".
Why do we even have to discuss this, the choice is obvious!
Would you rather have a president who can deliver an economic and constitutional thesis without a teleprompter? Why would anyone re-elect an economically illiterate president advised by Don Corzine?????!!!!!
Barak started using the teleprompter afterwards...just like all presidents are likely to use from here on out.
Except whoever the fuck inputs that shit he spews onto the teleprompter blows at writing speeches.
Shorter John:
wat constitushin???
Everybody please remember this thread the next time John claims that something - anything, really - is unconstitutional.
John is occasionally sane, but is also occasionally overcome by douchebaggery, like when he decides it's time for him to get on his high horse about how Ron Paul is a nut who says nutty things like the federal government does many unconstitutional things, which is exactly what John says about the federal government and the constitution every other fucking day of the week but today.
Maybe John just means he wouldn't vote for himself to be president either- or that he's a nut himself.
That's what I'd be forced to conclude.
"Ron Paul has disqualified himself by voicing my own opinion about the federal government and the Constitution" - John
The generic appreciation of the concept of liberty that permeates most of John's posts usually provides sufficient cover for his noxious, quirky illiberalism that often morphs into downright contempt for constitutionalism, or for libertarianism.
He doesn't seem to understand the Constitution of the United States, or perhaps he simply prefers to be disingenuous and discard its actual contents from consideration in order to argue for his positions.
Anybody that seriously claims, for example, that the Bill of Rights (or, if you prefer, the Commerce Clause) is anything but definitively clear and understandable is a moron. Period.
Well it is clearly both insane AND unconstitutional to stop bombing foreigners. Duh. What kind of nutcase are you to support such lunacy?
The fact that three branches have, over the years, usurped power from the people through unconstitutional means is the problem. It isn't legal for Congress to pass unconstitutional laws, for the courts to uphold them, and for all three branches to keep expanding their powers beyond the clear limits of the Constitution.
All three branches have interpretative powers to deal with gray areas in the Constitution or created by changes in technology, cultural mores, etc. But the ability to interpret meaning in such cases is not a legal right to distort or even cast aside the plain meaning and intent of our foundational document.
Usurping power, no matter how many times the government says, "Trust us, it's all cool, man" remains a violation of the core principles of this nation, one based on enumerated and limited powers. By doing so, the government is invalidating its legitimacy and taking a major step towards outright tyranny.
To the extent that the Constitution may be inadequate to the times or otherwise incomplete, there is a legal process for changing it: The amendment process. It's quite telling that amendments have become less and less commonly presented in recent years, as the various branches just rewrite the Constitution without bothering with that process.
Paul and others like him want to restore the concept of limited government and want to undo the illegal usurpation of power by government. He's dead right on this issue, and I don't give a shit what the courts or anyone else says to the contrary.
Checks and balances don't work when the branches collude with one another to expand their power.
We clearly didn't include sufficient checks on government power in the first place, though I suspect no written document would work without the general understanding and acceptance of voters at large.
The federal government was designed to be not only very limited in power, it was also designed to be inefficient at things like passing laws, etc. The idea was that certain inherent conflicts between the branches would prevent too much legislation and growth in power.
There are a lot of reasons the Constitution broke down, but one is that the checks on democratic power were largely removed, which was a mistake. Any power in government, held by anyone, needs to be checked. Things like taking the states out of the Senate elections, let alone the dissolution of the concept of federalism have done serious damage to the concept of checks and balances.
The mechanism for repealing bad legislation, the judiciary, failed.
The judiciary's duty is not to judge legislation against the constitution, but to defend legislation against those who would judge it against the constitution.
It is inevitable though. With very few exceptions people seek power to expand it, not to destroy it.
We've got one of those exceptions running right now, and if he doesn't win this country is officially fucked.
Maybe a check outside of the institutional government is needed. I've droned on about adding a censor as another branch, which would be basically limited to removal, veto, and maybe undoing powers, but I've always had concerns about it getting corrupted by the parties and by being a part of the government itself.
I think there's no easy solution and that the only true safeguard is a wary, freedom-loving populace. Lose that, and the system will die no matter what.
We had that in the form of the judicial branch, which can now legislate from the bench.
There is no limit to the cleverness and corruptibility of people who seek to have power over others.
No Pro. The Constitution functioned exactly as it was intended to function. If you don't like the results, blame the electorate.
It wasn't designed to be expanded by any means other than the amendment process.
Seriously, if you take the position that the past 100+ years of government expansion is okay because the branches of the government said it was, what's left to argue about with the major parties and what they've done? The people have spoken and all is well? I know that's not your position--you've made too many libertarian noises on this board in the past.
What is left to argue is that what they did was stupid and needs to be reversed. Running around screaming they were evil intent on destroying the Constitution rather than just mistaken ultimately doing what the voters themselves wanted is well a little nutty.
I don't think that I or most libertarian scholars over the years are talking about intent as much as we are observing what's happened. I think it's more the frog in the water concept. In fact, some of the expansions of power clearly happened with good intentions and for worthwhile goals. Still a problem, because more power will be used by others for not-so-good reasons.
Look at it this way Pro, suppose Ron Paul won the election and the Supreme Court was killed in a terrorist attack. Paul then appoints nine justices who buy this argument and they proceed to rule that 80% of what the federal government does is unconstitutional.
Do you really think the electorate would stand for it? Should they stand for it? Wouldn't that be the epitome of a Pyrrhic victory?
Well, I'm not suggesting that it would be easy to put the genie back in the bottle. However, let's think about something: If Paul were elected, he would be in part on the very proposition that government has gone too far. And if he appointed strict constitutionalists who got through the Senate, then where's the problem?
I do think that Paul will have a very hard time reshackling Leviathan, and if he were very successful, the attempts to oust him or, at the very least, hamstring him, would be huge.
That is because most people don't agree with his literalist interpretation of the Constitution. And vetoing bills of shit that has been considered Constitutional by every court that considered the issue, without giving a reason other than "they are unconstitutional" would make a President Paul look like a nut.
So we just allow government power to continue increasing? It's a ratchet that locks with each new usurpation?
I see no point in calling myself a libertarian if I were to adopt such a view. The government is out of control. We need to reverse that. If we don't, our economy will collapse, and we'll spiral into outright tyranny. Frankly, I don't care if my view is popular or generally accepted.
You can stop the power from increasing and in fact reduce it without claiming everything is "unconstitutional". Why can't you just veto a bill because it is a bad idea?
I don't really care what anyone says when vetoing or otherwise not enforcing an unconstitutional law or act. If Paul or others want to be coy about it, that's fine.
The reverse is another matter. Like, I dunno, signing a bill into law while saying that it's unconstitutional. I'd have filed articles of impeachment on Bush's ass the second he did that. Of course, knowing that Congress passed the law that he was talking about would mean no impeachment or conviction, but it's still incredibly wrong.
""No Pro. The Constitution functioned exactly as it was intended to function. If you don't like the results, blame the electorate.""
The Constitution was never intended to function as a whipping boy to the electorate. That's why the amendment process isn't easy.
Well that whole amendment process is a pain in the ass. Take segregation in the south. Some people didn't want those piece of shit racist denying blacks economic activity. So you get crap like Heart of Atlanta v. United States.
so When these difficulties [like dealing with segregation] arise, it is much easier for the courts to find some sort of legal fiction [fucking make believe.... I can't believe the courts use fucking make believe] to hang thier hats on. And so you get what we have here today.
Well, it's supposed to be a pain in the ass. Otherwise, you end up with what's happened to a number of state constitutions--superlegislation.
When someone says the constitution is vague, what I hear is that there's things they want the government to do that aren't in the constitution and it takes a law degree to interpret it in such a manner as to see things that aren't there.
The Constitution was specifically written in a way as to avoid making it vague. And if we're talking about the same Constitution, it worked.
Dumb fucking statists that insist otherwise can fuck off, because all I have to do is present a copy and request that they show me the part that allows them to do stupid tyrannical shit, and they scream and walk off.
When I do that a common response is "Who the fuck are you to interpret the Constitution? Do you have a law degree? Are you telling me that you know more than a Constitutional scholar? Fuck you! I'll listen to the experts!"
God forgive us for eviscerating the republic we inherited. If he exists, God forgive us.
Sacasmic... Fuck you... Only a trained professional can tell you what "Congress shall make no law" means. Imagine what the fuck would happen if we let mere mortals determine what "no" means. Or what "congress" means, or what "shall" means. Words, like math, are hard. Fuck that. Chaos would insue. So shut the fuck up, get in line, and quit complaining.... and pay your taxes or else.
/sacasm
Troy, you're such a pussy -- a TRUE good person would not only scold him, but would also report him to the federal government on that Obama reporting website!
So until you report this militia KKKlansman, don't you DARE associate yourself with us, the righteous and mighty progressives!
OMG, what's this dangling between my legs? OMG! MOMMA!
/Progressive
OMG RPA, You're right. What is the URL to that Ameria watch thingy where I can turn in America haters? I promise never to be beta again.
Except for Warty. I am putty in his hands.
Stand back. . .I am an attorney. I shall remove the sacred seals from the Holy Document and reveal the truth to you. Stand back, I say!
No what you guys are saying is that only Paultards get a say on what the Constitution means because it is so fucking obvious.
John, not everyone that believes the Constitution is very clear is a Paultard. Seriously man, over the last few weeks you've turned more and more into MNG. It almost makes me wonder if we aren't being spoofed by him. Hmmm....
I'm still havin' trouble with "is".
Democracy was born in places like Greece and Sparta. 3000 years later we're still consulting the academic equivalent of the Oracle at Delphi for approval from the Constitution god.
No morta can know what the gods really want!
Or they respond with some other variant of the ad hominem fallacy.
See above comment for example.
Okay Sarcasmic. You say the constitution prevents the federal government from doing 80% of what it does. Ninety percent of the populace disagrees with you. But according to you, you are right and they are wrong so they don't get a vote. How is that anything but consulting the oracle? Whatever the hell it is, it isn't political process.
Yup. Libertarians honestly seem to believe that they can use the authority of their interpretation of the Constitution alone to turn the country into something the vast majority of the populace doesn't want. It doesn't work that way. It wasn't intended to work that way.
What if ninety percent voted to reinstate slavery?
The Constitution forbids it. But if the majority wants it then the Constitution doesn't matter, right?
That's your argument.
That if the majority wants it, fuck the Constitution.
Then they would be wrong. But last I looked there was an amendment forbidding slavery. Last I looked there wasn't one forbidding Social Security.
Stop making straw men.
Last I looked there wasn't one forbidding Social Security.
I see. So the government does not have enumerated powers. It has any power one can imagine as long as it is not expressly forbidden by an amendment.
That is the exact opposite of what was intended.
That tosses out the whole concept of natural law and limited government. Most of the country likes an authoritarian government, therefore it's okay?
Pro,
You guys keep creating straw men. It is not as simple as this or that. I don't think saying the government has the power to tax and spend as it pleases is the same as saying that we should re-instate slavery.
I am saying the populace gets some vote on what the constitution means within reason You people are saying it means the Paultard interpretation or nothing. And that is not what the founders intended. That is why we appoint judges via the political process because ultimately, the people do have some say on what their Constitution means.
I am saying the populace gets some vote on what the constitution means within reason
It means what it says. If you can't understand the plain language then you are either doopid or had some really shitty teachers.
I think it means what it says too. And what I think it means is different than what you think. Why are you right?
We're not reading the same document then.
The one I read says
I don't see how that can be interpreted to mean anything other than what it says, though you say it means the exact opposite.
It says the government can do what the Constitution says it can do.
You say the government can do anything not expressly forbidden.
I don't see where you get that.
I really don't.
Some of the Bill of Rights are as simple to understand as make a left turn on main street.
Do we need to debate the meaning of left, turn, main, and street?
But that's not consistent with what the Founders said or with the earlier court opinions, for that matter. There is no general police power in the Constitution. Current claims to the contrary notwithstanding.
Within the framework of the Constitution, the people have considerable power through Congress to enact laws. Within the framework. No branch--including the courts--have the power to act outside of that framework. The sole exception is the amendment/constitutional convention process.
I'm a minarchist, and I've long felt that the Constitution, more or less as originally established, is about the right level of government. The growth of government since the adoption of the Constitution shows that we didn't include enough checks on the power or anticipate the connivance of the three branches in the expansion of government, but that's another matter.
""You people are saying it means the Paultard interpretation or nothing. ""
That's way off base. It's not like any of us are saying Paul, the Congressman or President would have the last word.
We are saying is means what it says it means, and if you don't like it, amend it.
And I am saying it doesn't mean that Vic. If you don't like it, amend the Constitution.
"" If you don't like it, amend the Constitution.""
Why amend it when judges and elected officials can just reinterpret it?
Say, good idea!
"I am saying the populace gets some vote on what the constitution means within reason"
They do have some say in what the constitution means. It means what it says and if 2/3 of both houses and then 3/4 of all states want to change what it says...by God, they can. Until then...FUCK OFF!
I wouldn't say 80% of it is unconstitutional. Welfare while wrong and a dumb idea, is not unconstitutional. And I defy you to come up with a single instance of me ever claiming it was. Social Security is also constitutional.
My views on the Constitution are nothing if not consistent. And they are at odds with Paul's. I think Paul is kind of nut on this issue. The government does lots of unconstitutional things. But that "lots" would not describe 80% of what it does.
Golly gee, I guess anything is constitutional when you look at it that way.
No. Not everything. There are certain areas like taxing, interstate commerce, spending, customs, where the Congress has prerogative. And within that area, they have the power to do what the feel is necessary absent violating the Bill of Rights or one of the other Amendments.
Congress has the power to tax and spend. It always has.
they have the power to do what the feel is necessary absent violating the Bill of Rights or one of the other Amendments
That was one of the main objections to the Bill of Rights.
That it would be interpreted that the government can do anything not explicitly forbidden, as opposed to being limited to that which was explicitly enumerated.
Seems that those fears were justified.
Every day you reveal how little you have in common with libertarians outside of the War on Drugs, John
Go back to redstate if small government and freedom bug you so much
Ryan,
I have a lot in common. But just because I think something is a bad idea, doesn't mean I think it is "unconstitutional". No, the Constitution, while a great document, is not perfect and did not guarantee us any better of a government than we deserve and desire.
If you can't see the difference between saying something is a bad idea and saying it is unconstitutional, you ought to just give it up and become a liberal.
straw man + false dichotomy
Should I start calling you Tony?
You seem to be into phallus fallacy stroking .
Why don't you try responding to a point once in a while sarcasmic?
I don't respond to fallacious arguments.
There is nothing fallacious about that. "Bad idea" is not the same as "unconstitutional". You can be one with out the other. And if you have any integrity you will admit that.
I'm not saying Congress can do anything they want, but Congress can do anything they want.
And doing anything not specifically mentioned is covered under one of those Amendments, isn't it John?
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Neither welfare nor SS is constitutional.
80% may be a lowball estimate.
But they're both popular!
That means they're good, because the majority likes it!
Besides, there's nothing specifically forbidding it in the Constitution, so It's constitutional!
That's what John says so it must be true!
Why are they unconstitutional? Because you say so. There is nothing I see in the Constitution that says the feds can't do that.
You think that if it is not there they can't do it. I and a whole lot of other people say otherwise. How do we settle this issue if not through elections?
You think that if it is not there they can't do it. I and a whole lot of other people say otherwise.
Read the 10th Amendment and get back to me, k?
Sure, that is not what it meant. It just means the feds can't do things like assume a general police power. It says "powers" not functions".
Again, both ways of looking at it are reasonable. I say we settle this argument through the political process rather than one side claiming a dictatorship.
Again, both ways of looking at it are reasonable.
LMAO!
You don't think it is reasonable. I don't think you are reasonable. So there.
*this may get posted more than once thanks to the squirrels*
No, I don't think it is reasonable to interpret The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people to mean the feds can do anything not explicitly forbidden by an Amendment to the Constitution.
It just does not follow, nor is it reasonable.
I think it means they can spend money that they lawful get through taxes how they please. Does the 10th Amendment prevent the creation of a national pension system, I don't think so.
How about just arguing social security is a ponzi scheme that is going to bankrupt the country? Why do we have to go back to the Articles of Confederation to get rid of it?
I think it means they can spend money that they lawful get through taxes how they please.
I think it means they can spend money as defined explicitly by Article I Section 8, which says nothing about a pension system or transferring wealth for the purpose of transferring wealth.
"Sure, that is not what it meant. It just means the feds can't do things like assume a general police power. It says "powers" not functions"."
Funny how Article I Section 8 is specifically entitled "Powers of Congress" and the 10th Amendment uses the word "powers". What a funny little coincidence.
Wait a second. The Constitution was drafted as a specific set of limited and enumerated powers. If you don't see the power in the Constitution, the federal government simply does not have it. That's the whole point of the Constitution.
Incidentally, no one need resort to the 10th to make this point. The Constitution itself is meant to be a list of powers. If the power isn't on the list, no can do.
Of course, one flaw with the whole system from the libertarian point of view is that the states weren't inherently so limited. Yes, they have their own constitutions, but they did and do, in theory and in practice, have general police powers. Which means that they could do a lot of what the federal government legally couldn't and can't.
The states are not limited at all until you get to the 14th Amendment. And Pro if Constitution was supposed to be a limited set of powers, they would have never put in the general welfare or necessary and proper clauses. Those clauses are at complete odds with your interpretation. If the founders meant what you say they did, they would have never put such things in the document.
If "general welfare" and "necessary and proper" mean "anything at all", then why bother to put in any enumerated powers?
Why not just say "Congress has the power to pass any law necessary and proper to regulate commerce and provide for the general welfare" and leave it at that?
No need for enumerated powers, since that right there is unlimited power.
For the same reason they listed enumerated rights in the Bill of Rights because some things needed to be spelled out. Others did not. They put those clauses in there because they knew that there would be things the federal government would have to do in the future that could not have been anticipated.
I thought that's what the Amendment process was for. Silly me. I'm not a lawyer.
I get it now. The Tenth Amendment means the federal government can do only what the Constitution says, which according to the magic seven words in anything at all. And the Amendments are not to give power to the federal government (because it has unlimited power by the magic seven words) but to limit it.
Gotcha.
What? I don't agree with this at all. That interpretation of those clauses guts the whole concept of limited government. Heck, I don't think even most liberal scholars seriously take that view.
That interpretation of those clauses guts the whole concept of limited government.
I think that's the point.
They have to pro or you end up saying the Congress has no power to enact social security or welfare or regulate much of anything outside customs. This debate was settled with the Louisiana Purchase.
And the concept of limited government actually exists outside the constitution. You can do things like win elections and limit the scope of government.
or you end up saying the Congress has no power to enact social security or welfare or regulate much of anything outside customs
I've got no problem with that.
Neither do I. Now I'd be okay with an equitable argument that doesn't shut everything down tomorrow, but that's because I'm a nice guy. But constitutional, they aren't.
Could transfer the programs to the states, where they are legal.
Well liberals wouldn't sarcasmic, which means they necessarily have to reject the literalist interpretation, which is my point. PRo was saying even liberals didn't buy that. And in fact they do.
I was talking about legal scholars, not politicos (which, incidentally, includes some legal scholars as a subset).
I had a quite leftish professor for Con Law, and he was pretty solid on the enumerated powers business.
Then he claimed social security was unconstitutional?
I am solid on "powers" too. I just don't see how spending money isn't one of those powers. That whole treasury thing you know.
I just don't see how spending money isn't one of those powers.
Straw man. Nobody is saying that.
The question is over how the money is to be spent.
Can it be spent on anything Congress can imagine, or on the enumerated items in the Constitution?
I say the latter, because otherwise the enumerated powers are pointless.
Just burn the stupid document and get it over with.
No they are not. There are lots of powers that don't involve money. They are called police and regulatory powers. And that is what the Constitution was limiting.
If they can spend money on anything, rather than just on things they have the power to do, then they could, for instance, hire a mercenary army, which could round up all of the people in the U.S. and place them into special mercenary-run camps.
Am I understanding all of this correctly?
They could hire the mercenary Army pro, but they couldn't round people up because they don't have the power to do so. Power versus spending.
Well liberals wouldn't sarcasmic
Of course not. Liberals see government as an instrument of plunder. They don't care what the constitution says as long as they can find a lawyer to interpret it to mean what they want it to mean. Limited government? Ha! The whole point of government is to things for you that would be criminal if you did them on your own. Injustice for all!
No they aren't. The general welfare clause, for instance, was itself a check on government power. As explained by Madison, it was meant to limit the government to actions that would only benefit the GENERAL welfare, as opposed to individual factions. (Like welfare recipients.)
It was precisely due to fears (expressed mostly by the anti-federalists) that people would wrongly interpret it that contributed to the states subsequently adding the Bill of Rights (including the 9th and 10th ammendments) during the ratification process. The 9th and 10th Ammendments were specifically designed to close any potential loopholes and hammer down that only the federal powers listed were constitutionally legitimate.
In response, the Federalists argued that listing out the Bill of Rights would lend credence to those who incorrectly argued the intent was to create a government of unenumerated powers, only specifically limited by the Bill of Rights. (They lost anyway.)
In retrospect, both fears were warranted, but none of the parties involved believed in a living Constitution with unenumerated powers. All argued it was one of only enumerated powers.
"if Constitution was supposed to be a limited set of powers, they would have never put in the general welfare or necessary and proper clauses."
BS Tony...er...John. The other possibility is that you misinterpret the N&P and GW clauses.
If you were correct the 10th Amendment wouldn't exist.
"The Constitution was drafted as a specific set of limited and enumerated powers. If you don't see the power in the Constitution, the federal government simply does not have it. That's the whole point of the Constitution."
And Madison stated that very argument when he argued that the 10th Amendment wasn't necessary. He felt it was perfectly obvious that the document only provided the enumerated powers to the government. Funny how he lost that argument, the 10th was included, and people STILL argue the Constitution can be interpreted.
Both are clearly powers reserved to the states under the 10th amendment.
Here's the problem with responding to me that way, sir:
During the course of the upthread, you trotted out the two "big guns" typically used against literalist readings of the Constitution:
"The meaning of the Constitution is vague" and "Since the people want X and the courts currently have not overruled X, that means X is constitutional, nanna nanna boo boo".
But those same two arguments can be applied against everything the federal government does that you think is unconstitutional.
It doesn't matter if your set of unconstitutional things and Paul's set are the same or not. Based on your arguments in this thread, you can't say
The government does lots of unconstitutional things.
And if Paul is a nut for thinking he can read the plain text of the Constitution and reach a conclusion that differs from current jurisprudence, so are you.
I guess it is a question of quantity becoming so large that it becomes a question of quality. 80% is a stupid figure Paul pulled out of his ass. Even if I could bring back Lockner, which I would if I could, it still wouldn't invalidate 80% of what the Feds do. And it still would leave lots of stuff Paul considers unconstitutional.
Paul wants an interpretation of the Constitution more restrictive than any court in history has ever held. Is that "nuts". Depends on how you define nuts. But it is at odds with what 90% of the world who has ever thought about the subject think, unnecessary for making his point, and totally unproductive to his cause. If that is not nutty, it is some facsimile of nuts.
But more people agree with John's conclusions than Paul's, which makes John's right.
Nanny nanny boo boo!
Science Damn It! You are being a pedantic ass. You ever hear of this thing called hyperbole? You mean to tell me you've never thrown out a random fucking percentage that was rather large to make your point? I'd like to point you to this:
John|12.29.11 @ 2:39PM|#
Okay Sarcasmic. You say the constitution prevents the federal government from doing 80% of what it does. Ninety percent of the populace disagrees with you.
Maybe it's only 75% don't agree with us. Maybe only 60% of what the government does is unconstitutional. You have no way of knowing what those actual percentages are. So sit down and shut the fuck up about him using 80% to illustrate his point.
Classic guilt by association fallacy. Every politician at every level of government in our country has supporters with odious beliefs and ideologies.
And those who are pro-freedom will have the biggest guilt by association problem since they will support everyone to some degree.
The fact that it works is proof that we, generally speaking, are not a pro-freedom nation.
The Truth About Ron Paul
Fact: Thank you for trolling today. You have made my day much more entertaining on my last afternoon before a long weekend.
Fact: You're still tard
god, I'm glad I started drinking.
By contrast, Mitt Romney, currently vying with Paul for the top position in Iowa, thinks almost everything the federal government does is "absolutely essential,"
Good god, save us from this man. He is absolutely the worst choice of all candidates, in either TEAM BLUE or TEAM RED.
Mitt is awesome. How dare you disparage Mitt
Notice how the story gets snowballed by some in the media and by Reason writers: Before, it was a few sentences. NOW, it's "inflammatory content." Next, it will be that Paul is the Devil Himself - just wait a few more months and a few more Nick, Matt and Sullum pieces.
Again Jacob is insisting on the canard that it is the inflammatory nature of the newsletters that is at issue, regardless of the fact that the several articles written about them do not refer to the content of the articles but several KEY sentences that could be construed as either racist or homophobic. Now we have a change of heart and widen the dragnet to include the articles themselves. What would be next: That he wrote the black bible?
I hear Ron Paul was also involved with the Ted Kazcynski, Tim McVeigh, and Richard Reid as a part of some anti-American Legion of Doom.
Did you hear about how he sneaked into the houses of black people and drank the blood of their innocent children as they slept in the embrace of success?
I've never seen this eye chart
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new.....-them.html
The Derider uses it on tea-bagging libertarian negro-hating neo-Confederate scum when pointing out that we're all totally wrong about His High, Grand, and Holy Majesty Barack I Obama's fucktardedness.
Don't forget jew despising, gay bashing, macaroni and cheeze hating, Kentucky Fried Chicken banning.....
FACT: Ron Paul was paid to look inside a lot of women's vaginas.
My God. . .you're right! Libertarian = libertine! Run for the hills! Hide your womenfolk!
Noice!
I bet he got to finger some of them.
"Got the whole fist in there, Doc?"
Moooooooooon river....
John Coctostan is pleased.
Where the hell is the records room?
Where the hell is the records room?
Phillip Klein comes out in support of Obama:
http://campaign2012.washington.....aul/281486
It's funny that they all accuse us of really being secret Obama supporters even though we would stay home or vote 3rd party whereas he would actually vote for Obama.
I'm shocked - somebody in DC wants big government.
This just in: http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/.....-for-gays/
"...earlier this week, the Paul campaign touted the endorsement of Reverend Phillip Kayser, pastor of Dominion Covenant Church in Omaha, Nebraska, for the "enlightening statements he makes on how Ron Paul's approach to government is consistent with Christian beliefs."
Kayser's Christian beliefs include:
"Difficulty in implementing Biblical law does not make non-Biblical penology just," he argued. "But as we have seen, while many homosexuals would be executed, the threat of capital punishment can be restorative."
and...
"he believed Paul's federalist take on the Constitution would allow states more latitude to implement fundamentalist law."
To be completely fair:
"Paul has since stripped the press release announcing Kayser's endorsement from its site..."
And that was torn to shred two days ago in these forums, but 48 hour news cycles being what they are, time for another go at it.
Man, Ron Paul threads really bring out the stupid in John, don't they?
All of his posts above^ could have easily been written by Tony
Maybe they could. I don't give a shit. You guys are the worst authoritarians. No one but Paultards apparently have any right to have any say in what the Constitution means or what the limits of federal power should be because those limits are "so obvious and clear". Why don't you people start wearing uniforms and giving the Roman salute to each other?
You really are a fucking retard. We dont claim the power to say what the constitution means, we reserve that power to the fucking document itself.
There is one good thing about John, he has over the years Ive been on here managed to strip any tiny shreds of Team Redness off of me. That I had to register GOP to vote for Paul in 2008 (and Paul in 2010) sickens me.
I AM CLEAR*!!!
*we determined yesteday that the LP is Team Clear.
Actually, I changed my vote from clear to some wavelength in the nonvisible ultraviolet. I felt that was more consistent with the LP.
Let's stop using that one immediately. 'Clear' is Dianetics terminology. Unless that is what we are going for these days. Are we?
Good call, I will go with Pro Lib then:
I AM ULTRAVIOLENT.
/paranoia reference intentional
I suggest 17.76 nm as the official wavelength.
Agreed
I'm going to buy a custom sunscreen that doesn't block that wavelength.
I'm hugely relieved. I didn't want to become a scientologist, but if you guys were gonna, I don't see where I would have had the choice.
I'm still trying to figure out why, if taking money from neo-Nazis is terrible, giving money to neo-Nazis isn't worse.
You know, someone should act like they're a big neo-Nazi or some other reprehensible twat and raise money. Lots of it. And blow it on something unrelated to "the cause."
It is letting them write your newsletters is the problem. But taking money, who cares.
Has Obama repudiated the support of the very people he blames for destroying the economy?
It's those fucking newletters that came out for ten fucking years. Ron Paul can not have known what was in them, and he was raking in money selling them. How the fuck Sullum can swallow the newsletters and Ron Paul's lame excuses for them boggles the mind. Evidently, once somebody has swallowed the libertoid Kool-Aid, the brain cells are irreservably altered. Mossad may have had a hand in the bombing of the WTC? No problem. Gay conspire to conceal the facts about AIDS? Hey, he's really a very decent guy.
Wow Max. There's a lot there.
What's the big deal. I do hope Ron Paul wins the Primary.
How can anyone make "a million dollars" selling newsletters?
Just more anti-capitalist Maxism.
And by the way, your "heritage" has plenty of reason to be suspicious, Sullum. Fuck you for embracing the antisemitic racist bag of shit your heritage is rightly susppicious of, you loathsome toad.
C'mon Max. It's Heritage, not Hate.
Why do you give a shit, Max? Your president isn't exactly Jew-friendly, y'know.
Max sure sounds hateful for someone who's so upset about the hateful content of 20+-year-old Newsletters...
Seriously, people can disagree with Paul's policies all they want, but outside of the newsletters, where is there ANY evidence of racism in any of his actions, books, or speeches in his entire life of public service?
I wouldn't be surprised if this "John" is a spoof.
I don't think so. It's election season, so John is switching to GOP water carrier mode. In a couple months he'll be telling us that we have to vote for Romney because he is the lesser evil and anything else is a vote for Obama.
Fuck you. I am not carrying water for anyone. You may not agree with me. That is fine. You can think I am stupid. But go fuck yourself if you think I am saying anything or don't believe or to carry water for some fucking political cause.
No. It really isn't. I am not a literalist. I am originalist. But I am not a literalist. And there is a difference. And I also think at some level there is no right answer to these arguments. The Constitution could be read a lot of ways. I happen to like it read one way. But I won't tell you that is the only reasonable interpretation. And I don't think the people who read it more liberally than I do are ignoring it or have some evil intent out to destroy the Constitution.
But I think Paul's view that 80% of everything the feds do is "unconstitutional" is at odds with nearly everyone who ever thought about the subject. Sorry, I don't buy it. And I think Libertarians would be better off convincing people why these policies are bad rather than some day dreaming of our robed overlords getting rid of them for us.
And I also think at some level there is no right answer to these arguments.
Sounds an awful lot like a "living Constitution" to me.
But I think Paul's view that 80% of everything the feds do is "unconstitutional" is at odds with nearly everyone who ever thought about the subject.
A lot depends on how you quantify the things that go into 80%, I suppose.
But, if you take an originalist view of the Commerce Clause, nearly the entire regulatory state is unconstitutional.
And, if you take an originalist view of the General Welfare Clause, the welfare state is unconstitutional as well.
That could add up to 80%, right there. Depending, again, on how you are counting.
I don't think the welfare state is unconstitutional. It was a dumb idea. But that doesn't mean it is unconstitutional. Lockner dealt with regulations, not spending money. I see nothing in the Constitution that tells Congress how to spend money absent equal protection issues.
I see nothing in the Constitution that tells Congress how to spend money absent equal protection issues.
Err, Taxing and Spending Clause?
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
That sounds pretty broad to me. It could have said something like "effectuate the powers enumerated in this document". But it didn't. It instead says "provide for the general welfare". What doesn't "provide for the general welfare"?
You guys want to pretend that something is specific and limited when it obviously is not.
"It could have said something like "effectuate the powers enumerated in this document". But it didn't."
Yea, that's because the 10th already says that.
If welfare is unconstitutional, the Louisiana Purchase was unconstitutional. And the homestead act. And the transcontinental railroad. And about a million other things.
At some point if one side loses an argument so many times, the argument does get settled.
And at some level RC, the liberals have a point, although not as wide ranging of one as they think. The Constitution was written in a common law system. Within such a system the meaning of laws is determined by a body of decisions and other laws. You guys want to make it a Napoleonic Code. But there is some latitude in the document's meaning.
Not that much latitude. And for the U.S., most things covered by common law are supposed to be handled at the state level. Not the federal.
Bingo.
Less latitude than liberals would like to think. But more than libertarians. By Paul's interpretation of the Constitution, the Louisiana Purchase is unconstitutional. It is true that at the time, some people claimed that.
But doesn't 200 years of reading the Constitution the exact opposite way count for something? At some point if you read it one way for so long, that really is what it means.
I'm fine with the Louisiana Purchase reverting back to French control. I'll emigrate 60 miles west and have access to better wine and authentic fois gras.
It's not 200 years, and it hasn't been "accepted" until quite recently that many of the powers currently exercised by government are constitutional.
I just don't accept the idea that since they got away with grabbing power for a while that I lose any right to oppose what they've done. Not like I ever signed off on any of it.
Of course you can oppose it. Why can't we just repeal the law Pro? Does something have to be unconstitutional to be bad?
The only zone where unconstitutionality matters is those things that are popular (and thus not going to be repealed) but are nonetheless ultra vires, violations of rights, or both.
If the government has usurped power unconstitutionally, it would be a little na?ve of me to expect them to give it up voluntarily.
Which is why I'm voting for Paul. If we want to fix things within the system, electing people who want to hit the undo button is the only way. Otherwise, we're forcing people in the future to use means outside of the Constitution to fight for their rights. I prefer that that doesn't have to happen.
IOW, if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
But I won't tell you that is the only reasonable interpretation.
You'd probably be disbarred for that. If an argument is ever completely settled, lawyers would lose power.
Suppose a President Paul vetoed a bill he considered unconstitutional. Then the Congress overrode his veto. And the courts order Paul to enforce said law. What happens then?
When last I checked Newt Gingrich was an evil fascist for not recognizing the supremacy of the Courts in such matters. What does that make Paul?
As the Executive he could just not enforce it. How is it dissimilar than pardoning non-violent drug offenders? The Executive gets to use his check against the Legislature and Judiciary. And if they really get pissed at him for it, the Legislature can impeach. You've heard of these checks and balances, have you not?
Then the Supreme Court isn't the ultimate authority. So Gingrich isn't wrong?
He's wrong for the Legislature to haul the judges in front of them and scold them like children. But there is no ultimate authority in a system with three separate but equal branches that check and balance each other, particularly since Gingrich's purpose is to scold judges with whom he disagrees. The Legislature via Senate confirmation can stop judges from being seated but once they've done that, their check against Judicial activism has been played, unless they plan to impeach, but that isn't Gingrich's goal. He wants to set up a public embarrassment arena to keep judges from ever deciding any other way than his own for fear they might be called out.
If the President has the power to tell them they are wrong and ignore them. And the Congress has that power and the power to impeach them, I would say Congress and or the President has the power to call them in and make them explain themselves.
You are saying it is okay for Ron Paul to ignore the Supreme Court as President. But it is somehow not okay for the Congress to call them in and have them explain themselves. That strikes me as "the Supreme Court is the last word unless our guy is in charge" kind of stuff.
One branch writes laws, one adjudicates them, one enforces them. Constitutionality should be the responsibility of all of them. But yes, the Executive can choose not to enforce the laws written by the Congress and the Congress may impeach that executive. It's not much different than the SCOTUS saying that which Congress made law (and usually signed by the president) is unconstitutional. When they do that, the Congress and president have to go back to the drawing board on their goal. Checks and balances. They all have power against each other, as designed. None of them are superior over the others. None are weaker than the others. The Congress and president could pass an amendment that tells the SCOTUS they all have to wear pink every day. Guess who's wearing pink? SCOTUS couldn't call it unconstitutional when it just got written into the Constitution.
""I would say Congress and or the President has the power to call them in and make them explain themselves.""
Is it too much to expect them to read the opinions the court publishes?
And if they are called to Congress for additional explanation, seperation of powers means the court can tell them to fuck off. Not answering to political whims of Congress is not a vaild reason to impeach.
I heard an interview with him yesterday. It was not to scold. He phrased it as a preliminary step towards impeachment. IOW, how would you impeach someone without first calling them on the carpet to gather information for impeachment.
I seldom agree with Gingrich, but I don't know how else you reign in out of control Justices. And I think it would be Constitutional.
Wouldn't it be the job of the Secret Service or the FBI or some investigative group of Congress to gather that evidence? And last I checked we still had the 5th amendment which provides you the protection of not incriminating yourself. Of course since I'm not a lawyer like John I'm retarded and need y'all to tell me what to think on this.
Congress has subpena power. Don't know why they couldn't compel judges to testify.
Hey John, do you think we should track down all those draft dodgers Jimmy Carter pardoned, en masse, on his first day in office since, you know, it was the law and stuff?
Dumbass.
What does that have to do with anything. Would Paul have a right not to enforce a law he thought unConstitutional or wouldn't he? And if he would, how is the Supreme Court any longer Supreme?
Depends on the law. Say it's enforcing drug laws. The DEA is part of the Executive branch, IIRC. If there are 3 DEA agents, plus one drug-sniffing dog, Paul can enforce the *shit* out of the drug laws.
A better question: if a President Paul vetoes the bill, and Congress *can't* override, aren't we done, then? The most interesting answer to this hypothetical lies there, not in your question.
It is harder than that RHO. The President has a duty not just to enforce the laws but also spend the money appropriated.
It is harder than that RHO. The President has a duty not just to enforce the laws but also spend the money appropriated.
Um, I'm calling bullshit on this. Citation, please?
Sloopy, it is called the budget act of 1974. It did away with something called "impoundments" . It is illegal for the executive branch to refuse to spend appropriated money. Look it up. It is basic fiscal law.
You know, does Congress have the power to enact laws restricting presidential powers? I don't think that's right. Even if a previous president signed such a law.
Oh, so the Budget Act of 1974 supersedes the Executive Powers laid out in the Constitution?
Oh, I get it. That's been your argument all thread...enough unconstitutional stuff exists that the constitution can just be ignored at will.
And if Paul ignored it, I'd like to see someone sue him (with standing) and take it to the Supreme Court...especially with Paul's DoJ refusing to defend the law's constitutionality.
"Sloopy, it is called the budget act of 1974. It did away with something called "impoundments" . It is illegal for the executive branch to refuse to spend appropriated money. Look it up. It is basic fiscal law."
You hire one law firm at $1,250/second to adjudicate one marijuana bust. When confronted by CNN, you say, "That's the law. Don't like it? Call your representatives."
Stop jumping from broad generalities to specifics when it suits you.
Glad to hear that you're admitting that it's "harder than that". You have a tendency to glib your way through important points, vis. practically anything involving the newsletters.
A Paul presidency could, if realized, radically shake up the reliance that politics puts on the executive branch. Most of what libertarians would condemn as federal overreach depends heavily on Congressional surrender of their proper authority to the executive branch through executive branch bureaucracies--like the EPA, the DEA, and other similar schemes.
Congressional abstinence is what led to the AUMF that led to the Iraq War II. I have little doubt that a Paul presidency would execute its duties regarding a proper Declaration of War from the Congress. It's that chain of responsibility that makes the presidency a part of government, rather than a semi-kingship, which is explicitly defined in the Constitution.
It's definitely not simple, as you say. But in a world where everything is defined as simple--you're either a crypto-muslim Obamadroid or a Neocon Romneyite--Paul's candidacy is a lot more cerebral than the typical talking points. So stop implying he's a racist, or he's covering up for racists, or he's a crypto-racist, and come out honestly for your opinion: you don't like Paul because you like killing brown people.
(That's my contribution to the lowering of debate.)
Because the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of the Constitutionality of laws doesn't also mean that it's the ultimate arbiter of penalties for the breaking of those laws.
If that were the case, every President that pardoned anybody would be subject to impeachment because they contravened "the will of the people."
The President could easily be impeached for pardoning the wrong people.
Or shot by a lunatic because of UFOs spraying saltpeter via chemtrails.
Your point?
The President could easily be impeached for pardoning the wrong people.
Really? Care to list a precedent?
Article II, Section 2: "The President ... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."
I don't see an asterisk, John. But now that I think about it, this can't be the real John. Not even the real John is this fucking stupid.
Also, impeachment has to be based on high crimes and misdemeanors. Using a presidential power in a constitutional and ethical manner isn't likely impeachable, unless the other branches are both willing to abuse the process themselves.
I would say refusing to enforce the law and pardoning people convicted of a law for the soul purpose of ensuring said law is not enforced would count as a "high crime". Suppose the President refused to enforce the counterfeiting laws and then pardoned all the counterfeiters. Congress couldn't impeach him for that?
"Suppose the President refused to enforce the counterfeiting laws and then pardoned all the counterfeiters. Congress couldn't impeach him for that?"
Again, a more interesting question: what would happen to drug laws if a Paul presidency absolutely enforced them? How many Senators' sons would be in federal pound-them-in-the-ass prisons?
Or better yet, let's enforce disparate impact legislation and ensure that black drug offenders only constitute 12% of the prison population?
You're talking about a very large rabbit hole, my friend. You don't want to see how deep it goes.
Congress and the Court can impeach and convict on any grounds they choose. If they want to do it constitutionally and ethically, there'd better be a damned good basis for doing it. If a president were to decide to pardon people for, say, drug use, I'm not sure I see how that's impeachable. The president does have that power, legitimately. I suppose there's an argument that pardons are for miscarriages of justice and not for overturning laws altogether, but I don't think there's any actual law saying that.
Not to mention that the courts usually steer clear of ruling on issues like this, as it's an inherent presidential power.
I would say refusing to enforce the law and pardoning people convicted of a law for the soul purpose of ensuring said law is not enforced would count as a "high crime".
And which "high crime" would it be?
Suppose the President refused to enforce the counterfeiting laws and then pardoned all the counterfeiters. Congress couldn't impeach him for that?
What "high crime" would he be committing? Failure to keep a person in jail who made copies of paper produced by a private bank? I'm looking at a $20 Federal Reserve Note right now, and I don't see no stinking "Trademark" or "Copyright" denoted.
Not that there aren't laws against counterfeiting, but as far as copyrights go, I'm pretty sure the federal government can't create copyrightable works. Not directly, anyway.
It's not a high crime. It's a constitutional check/balance.
There's a decent argument that the branches all have the power to interpret the Constitution, particularly in the negative sense. If the president says something is unconstitutional, then the Court can't override him, at least not in the sense that he acts on that belief within his constitutional powers. The exercise of the veto is the obvious place he could do that, but he could also do it by refusing to "execute" the law or power in question. Yes, he could be impeached, but that's just the rest of the government exercising its independent powers.
""When last I checked Newt Gingrich was an evil fascist for not recognizing the supremacy of the Courts in such matters. ""
Uh, no. He's an evil fascist because he thinks the courts answer to him. I've never hear Paul taking such a stance.
I picked the wrong day to quit sniffin' glue.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sockpuppeting.
Heather Butthurt
Oh Slapdick McGee. Will you ever learn?
This is like the worst chat room ever.
Aww. Why so glum? I'll let you squeeze my big, fat titties.
This is like the best chat room evah!
I renounce my idiot twin spoofer.
What's funny is that most of the commentators here seem to think they can influence public opinion by crackpotting on a political blog.
That, or they're all narcissists.
Discuss.
I like pie. Pie is better than cake.
Prove me wrong.
What kind of pie and/or cake are we talking about here?
The worst pie vs. the best cake.
I submit the worst pie is better than the best cake.
What kind you got?
Rhubarb pie vs. red velvet cake.
Discuss.
Are the cakes iced? That makes a big difference.
Red velvet is always iced. What are you, an animal?
Exit the barn you live in and then we can talk.
That's inherently erroneous. Red velvet kills rhubarb by eleventy billion. It's a fundamental and absolute truth.
Let me confound your prejudices with this, then: good rhubarb pie vs. bad red velvet cake.
I'll accept your surrender via email and/or a generous contribution to reason.com.
That was more a general question about the cakes involved here, not red velvet specifically.
For examply, fruitcake and pound cake are never iced. Although, I would consider fruitcake to be more in the gelatin category than either the cake or pie food group.
That, or they're all narcissists.
Bingo.
My apologies, your comment was IRT the red velvet cake comment. Possibly reason.com threaded comments thwarted your point.
I will submit, therefore, that cake that is not iced is de facto bread, and therefore inadmissible to the discussion.
I touched a painful nerve.
Pie is serious, my anonymous friend.
Now, I love me some good pie, but I don't find it necessary to insult cakes.
Had a fried apple pie in Pigeon Forge last month. Yummy.
I will submit this for the approval of the reason commentariat.
Thoughts?
You know what's better than saving your wedding cake in the freezer for your first anniversary?
Eating all of your wedding pie. At the wedding.
Nothing rattles the commentariat quite like the "narcissism" diagnosis. If the charge were meaningless, wouldn't they ignore it?
There's not enough on the necessary correlation between pie and ice cream. With a few exceptions (e.g., key lime pie), I'm not satisfied with pie unless I also have ice cream.
Hahahahahahaha!
[wipes tear from eye]
Sorry. Was it "narcissism" or "crackpot" that set you off?
I reject your divisive inclusion of ice cream. Is cake better with heroin? Yes, of course.
Stop polluting the discussion with your perversions. You perv.
Hahahahahaha!
Really, don't you find that pie needs, nay craves, ice cream? Again, with some exceptions. Like coconut cream pie.
Besides, what I don't accept is your entirely unnecessary cake-pie dichotomy.
Cream Pies are an affront to the fruit pie mafia that infects this board.
If you include cream pies into the discussion, you may as well count deep dish as pizza.
I only mention it as an exception to the ice cream rule.
The fried apple pie I mentioned earlier was consumed with ice cream. It was great.
I had a blueberry pie a couple of years ago that was particularly brilliant with ice cream. Ditto one of my mom's strawberry pies.
My favorite pie of your mom's has to...
Aw, nevermind. It's not worth it if the setup is that easy.
Hahahahahaha!
Why ruin a serious pie conversation with snark?
Here's my dilemma. I love my mom's and grandma's pies more than just about any cake anywhere but I dislike most other people's pie whereas most cake is pretty edible. So, pie > cake > pie.
And then there's grasshopper pie. Pie + alcohol = heaven.
How dare you say that deep dish is not pizza!
George Carlin:
"Takes the cake" ? you hear that one alot to ? "Boy that Fred...he really takes the cake!" Where? Where do you take a cake? You know where I would take it...down to the bakery, to see the other cakes! And why does he always take the CAKE....why not the pie? Pie is easy to carry ? "easy as pie!" Wait a mintue...cake is also relatively easy to carry ? "Piece O' cake!"
I know everyone else was ignoring your rather obvious trollery, but fuck it, it's not New Years yet and I have nothing better to do.
Maybe you haven't looked at the real world around you but normal everyday people don't have the power to change jack shit in our fucked up system of government. The end result of this is we go to the internet to let off some of our steam at the crappy things the government does.
We all know we have very little chance of actually changing any policies. So what would you have us do asshole?
I had a pine tree taken down about 2 months ago, and finally chopped it into firewood yesterday and today.
When do you guys think it will be dry enough to burn?
Don't burn pine. It will coat your chimney with resin. Pine is for starting fires. Hardwood only for the fireplace.
And? Pine smells great when it burns, and I've got a chimney-sweep on staff. Who do you think stacked the firewood after my groundskeeper cut it?
That's your choice. If you can clean up after pine, go for it. If it's freshly cut, it's full of sap and will fill your chimney with combustible resin. If you're cool with that, then burn away.
Here in the South, pine is common as colds. Nobody burns it, because they don't like house fires.
Out west, it's all we got. It sucks, but you won't die if you clean the chimney.
Um...it's not that I don't want your vote, but...um...this is uncomfortable...maybe y'all could try to focus on the essentials for more than three seconds?
Thanks.
[lloks at "Ron Paul"]
[Checks when thread started.]
[Checks # of comments in thread]
[Looks at "Ron Paul"]
Um...
I'd like to know Dr. Paul's position on wood burnin'.
10th amendment. Burn what you want in your own State.
Would he overturn the CA EPA's ability to tell me I an only burn wood in my fireplace every other day?
Or will I still have to rely on my neighbors' fear of me to keep them from calling?
Ask DONDEROOOOOO, I'm sure he can tell you.
owes MNG a huge apology for wasting his time all these years since it turns out he agrees with MNG on all of the key leftist legal points and that somebody is John.
Once John begins to justify his public policy preferences with Benthamite utilitarianism the transformation will be complete.
Bachmann Lied Through Her Teeth
According to Sorenson, Enos was fired shortly after releasing this statement from the Bachmann campaign.
That Enos sounds like a stand-up guy. Kudos to him for being more concerned with being fair than with saving political face.
"Kudos to him for being more concerned with being fair than with saving political face."
Sounds like a career killer in politics.
In fact, reminds me of this time I got really waaay too drunk at this party in San Fran, and shit myself right there in the middle of the festivities. Talk about embarrassing!
But what does this have to do with pie?
Well, here it is. Ron Paul's hideous record on race:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ccbaxt.....a-rac-41xp
Ron Paul is racist because he is an Islamo-Fascist.
22 Facts That Don't Jibe With "Ron Paul Is A Racist"
Some of the negative comments are so laughable, it makes me wonder why would any of those that posted them left their pictures.
You actually think that list should be persuasive, don't you?
It wouldn't be a bad defense of the guy's character assuming the reader had no knowledge of his history of racist publishing, associations with Nazis, espousal of antisemitic conspiracy theories and general kookiness. In the context of the current debate, though, it isn't much of a defense. Let's go through the list.
1. Racial profiling. Score one for Paul. One suspects his motivations have to do with opposition to any costly new security measures more than with an opposition to racism, but it's a clear point in his favor.
2. "Libertarians are incapable of being a racist." That's just ridiculous. Martin Luther King was acting on libertarian principles? Look, we all as Americans and as Occidentals share a lot of values and ideas. Paul's claim about what was essential to King's political philosophy elides some pretty substantial differences. This part of Paul's argument just seems like bullshit.
3. I rather agree with Paul that the census shouldn't record race data but I also understand the retort: that would be fine if we lived in colorblind society, but since we don't, we need this data. Paul's articulation of his position doesn't seem particularly sensitive, and, if I may, there's a tone about it that's like, "I'm not a racist, you are," as if he were speaking for victims of reverse racism.
4. Wow. "Their intense focus on race is inherently racist." Paul doesn't seem to be able to acknowledge or engage with the idea that even in a country individualism and liberty are explicit political values, racial classifications continue to oppress people. By Paul's definition of racism as a "sin of the heart," it's not clear that he's a racist (aside from the newsletters and the Nazis and the antisemitic consipiracies). By other definitions, he's not merely unenlightened, he's siding with virulent racists in their desire to shut down all discussion of racism, and suspecting those who do speak of racism of having vile and base motives.
5. Paul acknowledges that there is one "remnant" of racism in American society: the criminal justice system. That counts in his favor that this is one of the reasons he gives for opposing the death penalty. The qualification, that this is the one "remnant" of racism left in American society, doesn't mark him as particularly sensitive to or knowledgeable about the issue of racism. Also, leaving the states to institute the death penalty as they see fit doesn't address the problem of racism in the states.
6. Is a concern about racism really the reason Paul opposes the Davis-Bacon Act? I'm beginning to suspect that Paul exploits the fact that racism is politically unpopular to score cheap points without actually caring much about racism. Anyway, this hardly seems like a clear sign that Paul is not a racist.
7. A clear point in his favor. However, one wonders how far he would go to work with people who disagree with his stance on drugs, in whole or in part, but who want to end racism in the criminal justice system. That would be the test of his commitment to fighting racism.
8. Actually that sounds pretty racist. Criticizing Mugabe is fine and proper. Using him as an example to typify African governments is ignorant and sleazy. Paul was opposed to the Millennium Challenge Account, and he knows full well none of that money went to Mugabe. Yet after voting against the MCA, and giving a list of reasons (make of them what you will), he gives this statement as his reason for opposing foreign aid to Africa? That's just dishonest, and kind of the opposite of not being a racist.
9. He could have just congratulated Obama and left it at that. Instead he injects a tone of abrasiveness at the end. Only his solution will lead to equal justice. Hmmm.
10. Wow. He's flipping the script, implying that people who see things in those terms, i.e. people who talk about racism, are racists, whereas he is the enemy of racism. You know what clued me in? The "enemy" of racism bit. That's a pretty strong claim. Generally speaking, not wanting to talk about something doesn't make you an enemy of it. One has to ask, as a philosophical matter, how is Paul able to talk about racism in the criminal justice system without he himself becoming the thing he hates, i.e. a racist? Again, one suspects Paul might not really care about racism. Perhaps he just exploits it to attack people who disagree with his ideas about drug laws. We need more evidence of Paul's concern, and we need a philosophical argument for why he is able to discuss this one "remnant" of racism, but other discussions of racism are necessarily "collectivist" and inimical to his views. How does he decide which discussions of racism are libertarian and which are collectivist?
11. This is the racist equivalent of "man on dog," i.e., disparaging victims of racism by comparing them to less sympathetic groups that people choose to belong to.
12. Honoring Tuskegee Airmen. Who voted against that?
13. Bloody Sunday Commemoration. Okay, he's glad the Voting Rights Act passed, but he voted against its renewal. Is he just putting lipstick on a pig here?
14. Honoring African American contributions to science. A loud and clear fuck you to the Nazis would be better. Is this supposed to be substantial?
15. Honoring the NAACP. Isn't Paul's relationship with the NAACP kind of a mixed bag? Shouldn't his disagreements with the NAACP be mentioned?
16. A marker for the slaves who helped to construct the Capitol. Okay, what are Paul's views on slavery? What about the Civil War? I'm not surprised his defenders don't want to go there, but, really, if you want to persuade people that the guy is the enemy of racism, you kind of have to explain his view on the Civil War.
17. Honoring Jackie Robinson. Wow, that's some brave leadership--wait, you mean he was just going along with the crowd?
18. African American music. Because nobody who ever liked African American music was ever a racist. Ever.
19. Discrimination claims. Seems to be a clear point in Paul's favor. Dare I inquire into the details of this one?
20. Honoring African American pioneers. He's really built quite the voting record as an enemy of racism.
21. Honoring African American spirituals. See 19.
22. Honoring African-American inventors. See 20.
In sum, Paul is politically opposed to racism on a handful of issues: racial profiling, the death penalty on a federal level, the drug laws, and racial discrimination at the Department of Agriculture.
On a number of issues which his defenders are less forthcoming about, his positions align with the positions of avowed racists.
His "philosophical" arguments against racism are childish at best and maliciously racist at worst.
^21. Honoring African American Spirituals. I mean see 18, Honoring African American music.
Wow, can't wait to get home to my computer where I have reasonable installed. Ignore is a magnificent feature.
Here's my take on this circus.
http://electronpaul.blogspot.c.....-paul.html
I've been thinking of putting myself into an induced comma until the election is over, my doctor says it's not a good idea, but at this point I think I'm willing to risk it.