The editors of liberalism's flagging flagship ask the important question: "How should liberals feel about Occupy Wall Street?" Their answer, in part:
One of the core differences between liberals and radicals is that liberals are capitalists. They believe in a capitalism that is democratically regulated—that seeks to level an unfair economic playing field so that all citizens have the freedom to make what they want of their lives. But these are not the principles we are hearing from the protesters. Instead, we are hearing calls for the upending of capitalism entirely. American capitalism may be flawed, but it is not, as Slavoj Zizek implied in a speech to the protesters, the equivalent of Chinese suppression. "[In] 2011, the Chinese government prohibited on TV and films and in novels all stories that contain alternate reality or time travel," Zizek declared. "This is a good sign for China. It means that people still dream about alternatives, so you have to prohibit this dream. Here, we don't think of prohibition. Because the ruling system has even oppressed our capacity to dream. Look at the movies that we see all the time. It's easy to imagine the end of the world. An asteroid destroying all life and so on. But you cannot imagine the end of capitalism." This is not a statement of liberal values; moreover, it is a statement that should be deeply offensive to liberals, who do not in any way seek the end of capitalism.
Zizek is not alone. His statement is typical of the anti-capitalist, almost utopian arguments that one hears coming from these protesters. […]
These are not just substantive complaints. They also beg the strategic question of whether the protesters will help or hurt the cause of liberalism. After all, even if the protesters are not liberals themselves, isn't it possible that they could play a constructive role in forcing Americans to pay attention to important issues such as inequality and crony capitalism? Perhaps. But we are hard-pressed to believe that most Americans will look at these protests, with their extreme anti-capitalist rhetoric, and conclude that the fate of the Dodd-Frank legislation—currently the best liberal hope for improving democratically regulated capitalism—is more crucial than they had previously thought.
In the face of the current challenge from Tea Party conservatism, it is more important than ever that liberals make a compelling case for our vision of America. But we will not make this case stronger by allying with a movement that is out of sync with our values.
Reason's already voluminous and varied OWS coverage here.
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That's why you should never trust spell checkers completely -- it probably didn't recognize "crapitalism" as a word, and so the whole meaning of his article got changed around.
Well, he mentions that he believes in "capitalism", and then mentions something about "democratically regulated capitalism", which seems like an oxymoron. Doesn't that just mean that politicians erect competitive barriers to protect the corporations that contribute to their campaigns?
"They believe in a capitalism that is democratically regulated?that seeks to level an unfair economic playing field so that all citizens have the freedom to make what they want of their lives."
You have to read the whole sentence. It doesn't describe capitalism at all.
"Because the ruling system has even oppressed our capacity to dream. Look at the movies that we see all the time. It's easy to imagine the end of the world. An asteroid destroying all life and so on. But you cannot imagine the end of capitalism."
Um, Star Trek anyone?
And I'm sure Slavoj is equally despondent that we can't imagine a world without gravity and unicorns. Oh wait, we can, and they're as equally likely as a world without free association and entreprenurialship working.
I've heard the argument that capitalism isn't moral, therefore the government needs to regulate it. Everyone seems to ignore the glaring false assumption that government is moral.
There's a lot of stuff wrong in the world, but it's not the gov's job to make everything equal.
The economy shouldn't be the government's sand box.
OccupyTO is a movement that will start on October 15th, 2011 that intends to show our solidarity with the Occupy Wall St. movement and stand in unity with the rest of the world to seek and work towards drastic changes to economic systems that are destroying our economy, social fiber, and environment. We are, through entirely non-violent means, sending a message to the financial sector worldwide that banks exist to serve us, not the other way around, that the practices of speculation and fractional reserve lending have created a massive inequality and are no longer valid systems.
Current monetary policies, whether they are enacted under the idea of globalization and privatization, or some other guise, are unacceptably hurting the people that have propped them up, the very people they were created to help. Our target is to change these systems to help the 99% of the population, instead of just the elite 1% that they currently benefit. Everyone is encouraged to join the movement, this movement affects us all.
We are the 99%. You are the 99%. And THEY don't want you to know how powerful WE are.
You write:
"We are, through entirely non-violent means, sending a message to the financial sector worldwide that banks exist to serve us, not the other way around"
No, banks exist to help the people that either have money or the potential to create wealth.
"Current monetary policies, whether they are enacted under the idea of globalization and privatization, or some other guise, are unacceptably hurting the people that have propped them up"
Translation: we can't let no brown and yellow people take our jobs and have a comparable standard of living.
"Current monetary policies, whether they are enacted under the idea of globalization..."
globalization is just the formation of an unaccountable shadow government to rule the world.
Translation: we can't let no brown and yellow people take our jobs and have a comparable standard of living.
Drop the race hustle and be afraid. Worrying about the forces promoting globalization has nothing to do with denying economic opportunity to non-whites.
Retarded troll hiding behind obtuse handle wants to take the entire world backwards to the beginning of the 20th century, when tariffs and trade wars turned into actualy shooting wars.
So not only do you not give a shit about the status of the undeveloped world, you're willing to bring back economic conditions that lead to conflict ande war. Way to go fucktard.
Let's erect walls around each of our little fiefdoms so we can lose the advantages of specialization. I want to do the surgery on my street - I stayed at a Holiday Inn!
Interestingly enough, when it comes to the most wealthy human beings to have ever existed, you are in the top 1%.
99%? Yeah, those people who only make $450k a year are the average people standing in solidarity with those who make minimum wage. Oh, stupid slogan isn't supposed to have any real meaning? Gotcha. Science, you people exemplify the imbecility in our "education" system.
It is a choice between those who want to protect good jobs, decent wages and retirement security, and those who are trying to turn back the clock on the social gains made over generations.
- It is a choice between those who support accessible and affordable education, and those who are seeking to further increase tuitions for post-secondary education and increase the debt burden on the current and next generation.
You're right, there have been ZERO government programs over the last few decades designed to make education affordable. Magical unicorns are responsible for the creation of what is essentiall an education bubble.
And how silly of me to forget the words in the Declaration: Life, Liberty, and the right to get a high-paying job with a BS in Medeival Russian literature.
But answer me this you retarded cunt: would you rather brown and yellow skinned people languish in third world poverty provided that you get to sit on your lazy ass and work an unneccessary union job in a factory (which itself would make everything more expensive and technological growth non-existent)?
Who do you think works in the factories? They used to starve on subsistence farming or whatever means they found to scrape up food, but now they can earn enough to eat every day.
Efforts led by anti-globalists to shut down factories in countries like Thailand, Indonesia, and Cambodia, osetnsibly because of child labor, have actually had the effect of encouraging child prostitution and sex trafficing. Why? Because for some bizarre reason when you take away a family's only source of income and leave their country with very little wealthy the family tends to, in their desperation, sell their children to avoid starving.
What was it that Rothbard said, it's not crime to be ignorant of economics but if you are don't presume to dictate policy?
His point is that when abusers are committing their atrocities, they remain acutely aware of the following questions, "Am I doing something that other people could find out about, so it could make me look bad? Am I doing some-thing that could get me in legal trouble? Could I hurt myself? Am I doing anything that I myself consider too cruel, gross, or violent?"
These questions are asked word-for-word in corporate boardrooms. I spoke at length a few years ago with a former corporate lawyer who recovered her con-science, quit, and began working against the corporations. "The people who run these corporations,"she said,"know exactly what they're doing. They know they're killing people. They know they're destroying rivers. They know they're lying. And they know they're making a lot of money in the process."
Bancroft continues, "A critical insight seeped into me from working with my first few dozen clients. An abuser almost never does anything that he himself considers morally unacceptable. He may hide what he does because he thinks other people would disagree with it, but he feels justified inside. I can't remember a client who ever said to me: 'There's no way I can defend what I did. It was just totally wrong.' He invariably has a reason that he considers good enough. In short, an abuser's core problem is that he has a distorted sense of right and wrong."
It is a choice between those who support accessible and affordable education, and those who are seeking to further increase tuitions for post-secondary education and increase the debt burden on the current and next generation.
Why aren't you bozos ramrodding the hallowed halls of academia and bum rushing the bursar's office?
It would make more sense to me to actually protest where the tuition hikes are occurring.
Or do you just want to Robin Hood businesses that don't fit into your myopic worldview of free shit for everyone?
For some reason you guys find much more to bitch about when a college student or unemployed person might get something undeserved than when a bank gets billions of dollars worth of it and goes on as if nothing happened.
"For some reason you guys find much more to bitch about when a college student or unemployed person might get something undeserved than when a bank gets billions of dollars worth of it and goes on as if nothing happened."
You really have a problem with reading comprehension. The whole Tea Party movement was a response to bailouts of all sorts. Libertarians of all stripes are incensed by the Bush/Obama perversion of capitalism, which should be called crapitalism.
......billions? Bush, Obama, et cetera. Big Unaccounable Government pissed those trillions out and no one will ever get a good accounting. You are wrong -- you are a good obedient progressive that finds no fault with the violence and corruption of sleazy politicians you think are "on your side" while rightfully condemning the Bushie/Republican Big Government actions. I am not mad at the protestors, I think their target is not focused on the root cause of the problem....
Stupid liberals totally bastardized Ronin Hood. I mean he fought against unfair and exhorborent taxes and a corrupt political system. He should have been our poster boy. Sigh.
I was raised with the idea that you *earn* good jobs, decent wages, and retirement security - not that those things are magically handed to me from a position of authority.
Want less ed debt? Get a degree that pencils out. Or don't go to college at all. Go to nursing school. Or get a job driving a truck. We should be eliminating all financial aid. Really anything we can do to stop kids from wasting so much of their lives in school, taxing tuition or pumping tear gas through the climate control system would be a mercy.
"sending a message to the financial sector worldwide that banks exist to serve us, not the other way around, that the practices of speculation and fractional reserve lending have created a massive inequality and are no longer valid systems."
You need to change your attitude that anything "exists to serve" you - or that you exist to serve anything else. Yes, I'm against fractional reserve lending - guess who let that run rampant...the government. Why? Because it made them money, and now they abuse it to borrow excessive percentages of GDP.
You paint yourself a hypocrite as soon as you advocate monetary reform and then campaign for more government involvement in the monetary system. It's the same system.
We are, through entirely non-violent means, sending a message to the financial sector worldwide that banks exist to serve us, not the other way around
So that WASN'T you and your brethren taking out tens of thousands in student loans, buying the latest iCrap and vidya game DLC with your credit cards, and buying more house than you could afford?
Looks like you got served pretty well, you just don't want to reap the consequences of your actions. Don't be shocked that the banks feel the same way.
At least they are clearly displaying their embrace of utopian (or not so utopian) Communism. Surely, the media cannot continue to overtly embrace the followers of a system that has failed time and time again.
Right?
Other than the high unemployment, which you can lay at the feet of government, I don't see anything bad in these charts. All the stuff at the end about banks misses the point, as it was government shovelling the money out. Little help?
To be sure, this article does a great job of illustrating how messed up our government/bank complex really is. Yeah, banks are riding high on free profits from government. You have to be a moron to blame the banks and not the government.
You can also blame both, but I don't see the OWS people doing that. There seems to be a disconnect that prevents them from recognizing government's role in the meltdown.
FWIW, one of the things that was good about seeing the MSM throw charges of racism, etc. at the entirety of the Tea Party movement was that it made individual Tea Party supporters themselves get vocal about their opposition to racism.
I've heard about too many Ron Paul signs to label the whole Occupy movement as entirely anti-capitalist, and as a libertarian, anti-Imperial presidency guy, I certainly wouldn't condemn any anti-authoritarian movement--just for being to my left.
But if calling this movement anti-capitalist in its entirely provokes individuals within the movement to get vocal about their belief in capitalism (rather than the alliance between government and business), then just like that ultimately paved the way for the Tea Party to make some headway in mainstream America, that may do something to legitimize this anti-authoritarian movement on the center left too.
I'm keepin' my fingers crossed anyway. 'cause havin' some people on the left who oppose Obama on principle doesn't scare me any.
"just like that ultimately paved the way for the Tea Party to make some headway in mainstream America"
The Tea Party movement was (and is) mainstream America. Accusations of racism had (and has) nothing whatsoever to do with the influence of the Tea Party. The accusations were just a failed attempt to smear and demonize tens of millions of people. The liberal media must be very frustrated that the TP has no single leader that can be targeted and destroyed.
I'm talking about sway with swing voters. The Tea Party was successful in the races it contested because it successfully countered charges of racism in the media. Middle/undecided/uncommitted Soccer Moms and elderly people will not vote for something they think is promulgating racism.
Likewise, suburbanites everywhere aren't about to sign off on candidates endorsed by Occupy Whatever people--if those people really are attacking suburbanites or their standard of living.
Occupy Whatever hasn't formed into a movement that endorses anything yet--but if it does? It won't be successful with uncommitted voters if it doesn't successfully defend itself against charges that it's hostile to hard work, saving your money and what most people recognize as American capitalism.
Like the Tea Party wouldn't have been successful if it hadn't successfully countered the charges that it was racist.
I don't see why any of this should be controversial.
Once again, the TP had a broad base of support before the attempts to smear it were really ginned up. Some polls were saying 40% of the public supported the TP. That was well before the elections and is a truly astonishing number for a spontaneous political movement.
The racism charges didn't stick, but they had nothing to do with the political will behind the movement. I didn't see any particularly vigorous effort on the part of the TP to counter the charges, other than flagging phony protestors at the TP rallies.
The accusation that 40% of U.S. citizens are so motivated by racial animus that they would support a political movement for that reason alone was too preposterous to fly, especially since the TP was consistently promoting a message of fiscal responsibility.
Maybe in the social circles in which you travel there were people willing to believe that the TP was somehow racist, but I saw no evidence at all that many people were buying into the smear. Americans have been listening to race hustlers for decades and are suitably sceptical when liberals start crying 'racism'.
As far as Occupy Wherever is concerned, it isn't going to amount to anything. Their numbers are tiny, despite the ridiculous amount of media coverage they are getting. Their behavior while protesting (dirty, vandalistic) is alien to most Americans. They have no coherent message. Everything suggests that Occupy Wherever is just astroturf. It will disappear when the organizers decide that they aren't scaring anyone and aren't provoking some response to spark the Revolution.
"Once again, the TP had a broad base of support before the attempts to smear it were really ginned up."
Yer outta yer mind.
When the Tea Party flared up, it happened outside both parties, and it was treated either as a bizarre sideshow or likened to the militia movement, anti-immigrant radicals and the Klan--all rolled up into one.
Hell, and that was in the very beginning! By the end, they started blaming the Tea Party for everything from kooks trying to crash their airplanes into things--to shooting spree/assassination attempts by kooks! All the Tea Party's fault, don't you know? They're so scaaaaaarrrrry!
The Tea Party didn't really get any legitimacy in the media at all until they won big in the midterms. The Tea Party won that fight despite what the media was saying...
Largely because they successfully defended themselves against charges of racism, etc. People don't want to vote for kooks and radicals. The Occupy Whatever movement as it stands right now couldn't win a seat on a city council anywhere outside of Santa Monica or San Francisco.
If they want to be successful, they're gonna have to convince people they aren't anti-capitalist--as most Americans understand that to mean. If they manage to do that, they may entice some people to oppose Obama from the left in the upcoming election.
...and for the life of me, I can't imagine why that would be a bad thing. Who's the Green Party candidate this time? I hope he or she ends up doing to Obama what Perot did to Bush Senior.
When the Tea Party flared up,... that was in the very beginning!
As I remember it, the Tea Party grew out of the town hall meetings in which irate citizens confronted law makers about the effort to pass HCR. At first, the media and law makers didn't know what the hell to make of it. Then, they tried to suggest that they were a marginal group. At one point Nancy Pelosi, the Great Dame herself, remarked in surprise, "It's not astroturf." It was at that point, when it was clear that the TP was not a small, marginal group, that the smear of last resort was tried. I believe it was on Nancy's gavel march that John Lewis claimed he had been called a nigger.
The Tea Party didn't really get any legitimacy in the media
That's the problem with your understanding right there. The TP had legitimacy from the beginning. The media tried to tear it down, but couldn't even get a start because the TP had such broad support from the public from the get go. Lots of people, even those who didn't normally pay attention to politics, were watching the GM bailouts, TARP and the HCR debate with revulsion. The TP grew from that.
Occupy is going nowhere because it doesn't stand for anything coherent and has no base of support. The organizers can PR and spin to their hearts content, but it won't matter because there isn't anything in Occupy's message, such as it is, with broad support that isn't already supported by the TP.
"As I remember it, the Tea Party grew out of the town hall meetings in which irate citizens confronted law makers about the effort to pass HCR."
I started paying attention when I saw Santelli's rant on Feb. 19, 2009. People started talking about what Santelli said about bailing out Wall Street and the deadbeats...
He starts talking about having a "Tea Party" in Chicago--and people started showing up to throw tea bags in various bodies of water all over the country. That's when they started calling themselves "teabaggers" before they were aware of the vulgar connotation. They started out bringing tea bags to all their protests.
They got together, and they started talking to each other...online and elsewhere.
I remember seeing that rant live on CNBC. I was yelling at someone in my office at the time about it--Santelli said everything I was thinking.
The Tea Party came out of the bailouts--and it was a reaction to stuff like this:
That's what Obama was did a couple of weeks earlier... The first thing he did when he got into office was take $350 billion out of our future paychecks and squander it on Wall Street.
Every time Obama did something to try to force Americans to make sacrifices for the common good, the Tea Party grew stronger and stronger.
When he was talking about how we're gonna have to learn to sacrifice for the environment around the oil spill, the Tea Party got stronger. Health Care Reform made the Tea Party grow stronger too, but it started with the bailouts.
Just like the original Boston Tea Party was a reaction to the British taxing the colonists to bail out the East India Tea Company.
Everything the Tea Party became after the bailouts was a step toward making themselves more palatable to centrist voters. And that's okay. They weren't libertarian enough for me, but that's okay! They made Obama change his tune. Obama's dialed back on the Progressivism big time since the midterms.
And the Occupy Whatever people are mad as hell about it. What we're seeing with the Occupy Whatever movement now is where the Tea Party was two weeks after Santelli's rant. Their movement may never amount to anything, but if they do become something? It'll be because they moderate their views to appeal to the left side of the center-left.
And that is good news for us if we don't like Obama. Everybody who starts to identify with that movement will be that much less likely to vote for Obama in the next election.
That's exactly right. And it's really going nowhere once the general public better understands what it truly is.
Not to get all "Glen Beck" on you (lol) but there's a lot more to the OWS protest than a bunch of kids in the park without any clear demands. Of course there are no clear demands or message other than some broad themes of discontent. It grew directly out of an effort intended solely for the purpose of turning people out that was lead by Adbusters and Kalle Lasn, a Spanish anarchist group, Anonymous, and some other similar groups. What would you expect from a bunch of culture jammers and anarchists? 😉
Actually, there are demands and the "kids in the park" thing largely is stage dresssing. Far from a "spontaneous" assembly as it's generally reflected in the popular media, this is just one part of a decentralized but coordinated effort that has been very well orchestrated from the start and much planning by the groups involved. They include the anarchists-type groups above, other radical groups on the left, activists like Steve Lerner who have been promoting the "Days of Rage" movement for a long time, less radical, more mainstream union groups, etc., etc., all of whom have been planning this specific protest long before it happened. If you don't know who these groups are then you should go look. And, again, it's not like it's some big secret conspiracy that they're hiding. You can go to their respective web sites, blogs, forums, etc., and see exactly what they're all about and that is in fact the case.
Largely, the message/objective is creating chaos for chaos sake, which then can be leveraged in various ways by various groups. That will become more apparent as this continues. Beyond the OSW protest itself, it extends far beyond that to a whole range of protests that have been planned for October and beyond, as reflected in the "Global Day of Protests" today. You don't think those mass-produced Guy Fawkes masks just magically appear all around the world at the same time do you? 😉
If you think this is some "spontaneous" movement related to cleaning up Wall Street, jobs, and money in Washington, then you really should do more research regarding the origins of this "movement." And for the record, no, I'm not a Fox-watching, Koch-snorting, right-wing conspiracy nut. I'm a hard-core independent without a distinct ideological focus which permits an objective, realistic view of all this, and who was a sympathetic supporter of this "movement" until I started to peek behind the curtain a little more. Not that there aren't real issues along the lines associated with the protests that need to be addressed, but this ain't that. It's more of an attempt to leverage that. Which is why I'm out.
It won't be successful with uncommitted voters if it doesn't successfully defend itself against charges that it's hostile to hard work, saving your money and what most people recognize as American capitalism.
Unless they watch Fox News, listen to Rush Limbaugh, and read Reason or WND those uncommitteds are never going to encounter the accusations against Occupy.
Whereas you could barely look at any news outlet without seeing accusations of racism and social darwinism leveled at the Tea Party.
"[In] 2011, the Chinese government prohibited on TV and films and in novels all stories that contain alternate reality or time travel," Zizek declared. "This is a good sign for China. It means that people still dream about alternatives, so you have to prohibit this dream. Here, we don't think of prohibition. Because the ruling system has even oppressed our capacity to dream.
It's like one of those games in Highlights. Spot all the inconsistencies and logical errors in Zizek's speech. There are probably enough to cause a 1960s computer to set on fire.
To the asshole in the pic that thinks a job is a right: There's a metric fuckton of produce in Alabama that's not being picked right now. What the fuck are you waiting for?
Is a fuckton bigger than a megaton or between a kiloton and a megaton.
Snark aside, I agree with your point. But you know the rejoinder would be "We mean decent jobs." (Which is code for a no-effort, no-stress, high-paying job from which you can't be fired for any reason other than supporting Team Red.)
TNR has always been a mere gatekeeper of Respectable Mainstream Opinion, a holding tank for hack hangers-on to the coattails of those in power. Anything appearing in its pages is guaranteed not to upset the Washington elite. Hell, Andrew Sullivan was the editor for five years, which is a damning indictment if I've ever heard one.
As for the article ? every good Democrat knows that to change anything you have to play by the rules: vote for a party of thieves fronted by a leader with a shitload of campaign contributions and advisers drawn from Wall Street, then beg him to tinker around the edges of a broken system with regulatory-capture-prone legislative abortions that will only make the corruption worse.
This is one of the opening shots in what will be a long and nauseating campaign to demonize any attempts to outflank Obama from the left. And it is gonna be nasty. There was already a dustup on the progressive blogs a few days ago over whether liberals who've given up on Obama are (a) racist, or (b) just stupid.
Anyway, Dodd?Frank is stupid, the "regulation" is the problem, and TNR needs to go out of business once and for fucking all.
That may be the first time I have ever heard a liberal say that liberals believe in capitalism.
I feel like he should cite his sources.
I should not have been drinking water when I read that.
That's why you should never trust spell checkers completely -- it probably didn't recognize "crapitalism" as a word, and so the whole meaning of his article got changed around.
Well, he mentions that he believes in "capitalism", and then mentions something about "democratically regulated capitalism", which seems like an oxymoron. Doesn't that just mean that politicians erect competitive barriers to protect the corporations that contribute to their campaigns?
....Political Corruption is Democracy in Action....
Yes.
Unfortunately there is one thing standing between me and that property: the rightful owners.
"They believe in a capitalism that is democratically regulated?that seeks to level an unfair economic playing field so that all citizens have the freedom to make what they want of their lives."
You have to read the whole sentence. It doesn't describe capitalism at all.
Read some Rawlsian theories on social justice.
This liberal, and many others like him, believe that capitalism is the best system available, but not close to perfect.
Get out of your libertarian insulated zone and read more modern liberal theory. A lot of it isn't that radical. It simply makes moral sense.
Total ownership of one's labor and capital is not the end all, be all of morality or justice.
Liberal capitalism is free trade controlled and regulated to give everyone the same outcome. Duh!
"Because the ruling system has even oppressed our capacity to dream. Look at the movies that we see all the time. It's easy to imagine the end of the world. An asteroid destroying all life and so on. But you cannot imagine the end of capitalism."
Um, Star Trek anyone?
And I'm sure Slavoj is equally despondent that we can't imagine a world without gravity and unicorns. Oh wait, we can, and they're as equally likely as a world without free association and entreprenurialship working.
And asteroid impact movies were a 1998 thing, anyway. GWTFP Slavoj!
I've heard the argument that capitalism isn't moral, therefore the government needs to regulate it. Everyone seems to ignore the glaring false assumption that government is moral.
There's a lot of stuff wrong in the world, but it's not the gov's job to make everything equal.
The economy shouldn't be the government's sand box.
OccupyTO is a movement that will start on October 15th, 2011 that intends to show our solidarity with the Occupy Wall St. movement and stand in unity with the rest of the world to seek and work towards drastic changes to economic systems that are destroying our economy, social fiber, and environment. We are, through entirely non-violent means, sending a message to the financial sector worldwide that banks exist to serve us, not the other way around, that the practices of speculation and fractional reserve lending have created a massive inequality and are no longer valid systems.
Current monetary policies, whether they are enacted under the idea of globalization and privatization, or some other guise, are unacceptably hurting the people that have propped them up, the very people they were created to help. Our target is to change these systems to help the 99% of the population, instead of just the elite 1% that they currently benefit. Everyone is encouraged to join the movement, this movement affects us all.
We are the 99%. You are the 99%. And THEY don't want you to know how powerful WE are.
You annoy me.
Or to put meat on this...
You write:
"We are, through entirely non-violent means, sending a message to the financial sector worldwide that banks exist to serve us, not the other way around"
No, banks exist to help the people that either have money or the potential to create wealth.
You confuse banking with welfare.
There was a time when banks were a tool for business. Now, it seems, business is a tool for banks.
Gibberish much?
LTNS Gobbler!
Groovus Maximus. I heard you were dead.
Reports of my demise were greatly exaggerated.
Occupy The Offspring?
I am the 0.000000003246%. Leave me alone.
My new handle
What's 1/29 billion?
The closest I could get to 1 person out of 308,000,000.
There's this new thing called scientific notation that the kids are using.
Not sure the tags would work in the name field, though.
3.246*109
Nope.
3.246*10^-9
We in the numerical analysis industry would write 3.2467532e-7 % (remember you're multiplying by 100 to get percent from the fraction).
Of course that's jibberish since there were only 3 sigfigs in the population estimate.
Ah, yes.
How about you move your money to a place that will do with it what you want? You're not obligated to use the banking system, you know.
Though you are obligated to pay taxes that will prop up the banking system...
"Current monetary policies, whether they are enacted under the idea of globalization and privatization, or some other guise, are unacceptably hurting the people that have propped them up"
Translation: we can't let no brown and yellow people take our jobs and have a comparable standard of living.
Fuck off, rascist, nationalist slaver.
"Current monetary policies, whether they are enacted under the idea of globalization..."
globalization is just the formation of an unaccountable shadow government to rule the world.
Translation: we can't let no brown and yellow people take our jobs and have a comparable standard of living.
Drop the race hustle and be afraid. Worrying about the forces promoting globalization has nothing to do with denying economic opportunity to non-whites.
Fuck off, racialist.
Retarded troll hiding behind obtuse handle wants to take the entire world backwards to the beginning of the 20th century, when tariffs and trade wars turned into actualy shooting wars.
So not only do you not give a shit about the status of the undeveloped world, you're willing to bring back economic conditions that lead to conflict ande war. Way to go fucktard.
Let's erect walls around each of our little fiefdoms so we can lose the advantages of specialization. I want to do the surgery on my street - I stayed at a Holiday Inn!
Interestingly enough, when it comes to the most wealthy human beings to have ever existed, you are in the top 1%.
99%? Yeah, those people who only make $450k a year are the average people standing in solidarity with those who make minimum wage. Oh, stupid slogan isn't supposed to have any real meaning? Gotcha. Science, you people exemplify the imbecility in our "education" system.
It is a choice between those who want to protect good jobs, decent wages and retirement security, and those who are trying to turn back the clock on the social gains made over generations.
- It is a choice between those who support accessible and affordable education, and those who are seeking to further increase tuitions for post-secondary education and increase the debt burden on the current and next generation.
You're right, there have been ZERO government programs over the last few decades designed to make education affordable. Magical unicorns are responsible for the creation of what is essentiall an education bubble.
And how silly of me to forget the words in the Declaration: Life, Liberty, and the right to get a high-paying job with a BS in Medeival Russian literature.
But answer me this you retarded cunt: would you rather brown and yellow skinned people languish in third world poverty provided that you get to sit on your lazy ass and work an unneccessary union job in a factory (which itself would make everything more expensive and technological growth non-existent)?
Again, fuck off, racist, nationalist slaver.
How has the concentration of wealth at the very top helped starving third world residents?
How has the concentration of wealth at the very top hurt starving third world residents?
How HAVE the fascistic Obama policies helped anyone but the "haves" that contribute to his campaign?
Who do you think works in the factories? They used to starve on subsistence farming or whatever means they found to scrape up food, but now they can earn enough to eat every day.
Efforts led by anti-globalists to shut down factories in countries like Thailand, Indonesia, and Cambodia, osetnsibly because of child labor, have actually had the effect of encouraging child prostitution and sex trafficing. Why? Because for some bizarre reason when you take away a family's only source of income and leave their country with very little wealthy the family tends to, in their desperation, sell their children to avoid starving.
What was it that Rothbard said, it's not crime to be ignorant of economics but if you are don't presume to dictate policy?
Abusers can always give a reason.
His point is that when abusers are committing their atrocities, they remain acutely aware of the following questions, "Am I doing something that other people could find out about, so it could make me look bad? Am I doing some-thing that could get me in legal trouble? Could I hurt myself? Am I doing anything that I myself consider too cruel, gross, or violent?"
These questions are asked word-for-word in corporate boardrooms. I spoke at length a few years ago with a former corporate lawyer who recovered her con-science, quit, and began working against the corporations. "The people who run these corporations,"she said,"know exactly what they're doing. They know they're killing people. They know they're destroying rivers. They know they're lying. And they know they're making a lot of money in the process."
Bancroft continues, "A critical insight seeped into me from working with my first few dozen clients. An abuser almost never does anything that he himself considers morally unacceptable. He may hide what he does because he thinks other people would disagree with it, but he feels justified inside. I can't remember a client who ever said to me: 'There's no way I can defend what I did. It was just totally wrong.' He invariably has a reason that he considers good enough. In short, an abuser's core problem is that he has a distorted sense of right and wrong."
http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/23 - Abusers.html
I'm into self abuse. I can't tell anyone because I'm embarrassed.
There goes Tony with his wealth-envy bullshit again... the sun must have come up that morning.
It is a choice between those who support accessible and affordable education, and those who are seeking to further increase tuitions for post-secondary education and increase the debt burden on the current and next generation.
Why aren't you bozos ramrodding the hallowed halls of academia and bum rushing the bursar's office?
It would make more sense to me to actually protest where the tuition hikes are occurring.
Or do you just want to Robin Hood businesses that don't fit into your myopic worldview of free shit for everyone?
The OWS people are protesting "free shit."
For some reason you guys find much more to bitch about when a college student or unemployed person might get something undeserved than when a bank gets billions of dollars worth of it and goes on as if nothing happened.
For some reason you guys find much more to bitch about...when a bank gets billions of dollars worth of it and goes on as if nothing happened.
You have to be blind to have missed all the bitching about bank bailouts in this website and comments board. Are you intentionally this obtuse?
"For some reason you guys find much more to bitch about when a college student or unemployed person might get something undeserved than when a bank gets billions of dollars worth of it and goes on as if nothing happened."
You really have a problem with reading comprehension. The whole Tea Party movement was a response to bailouts of all sorts. Libertarians of all stripes are incensed by the Bush/Obama perversion of capitalism, which should be called crapitalism.
I was going to say, it should be called "crony capitalism" but "crapitalism" is an acceptable portmanteau.
......billions? Bush, Obama, et cetera. Big Unaccounable Government pissed those trillions out and no one will ever get a good accounting. You are wrong -- you are a good obedient progressive that finds no fault with the violence and corruption of sleazy politicians you think are "on your side" while rightfully condemning the Bushie/Republican Big Government actions. I am not mad at the protestors, I think their target is not focused on the root cause of the problem....
Stupid liberals totally bastardized Ronin Hood. I mean he fought against unfair and exhorborent taxes and a corrupt political system. He should have been our poster boy. Sigh.
I was raised with the idea that you *earn* good jobs, decent wages, and retirement security - not that those things are magically handed to me from a position of authority.
Want less ed debt? Get a degree that pencils out. Or don't go to college at all. Go to nursing school. Or get a job driving a truck. We should be eliminating all financial aid. Really anything we can do to stop kids from wasting so much of their lives in school, taxing tuition or pumping tear gas through the climate control system would be a mercy.
"sending a message to the financial sector worldwide that banks exist to serve us, not the other way around, that the practices of speculation and fractional reserve lending have created a massive inequality and are no longer valid systems."
You need to change your attitude that anything "exists to serve" you - or that you exist to serve anything else. Yes, I'm against fractional reserve lending - guess who let that run rampant...the government. Why? Because it made them money, and now they abuse it to borrow excessive percentages of GDP.
You paint yourself a hypocrite as soon as you advocate monetary reform and then campaign for more government involvement in the monetary system. It's the same system.
You know how to make banks act like they exist to serve you?
Deregulation. But you're probably too dumb to understand that.
meant for the tool above you
From one Canadian to another: Quit occupying my pocket.
Why would you want to occupy Terrell Owens?
+100
Exactly what I thought.
WTF is TO?
We are, through entirely non-violent means, sending a message to the financial sector worldwide that banks exist to serve us, not the other way around
So that WASN'T you and your brethren taking out tens of thousands in student loans, buying the latest iCrap and vidya game DLC with your credit cards, and buying more house than you could afford?
Looks like you got served pretty well, you just don't want to reap the consequences of your actions. Don't be shocked that the banks feel the same way.
At least they are clearly displaying their embrace of utopian (or not so utopian) Communism. Surely, the media cannot continue to overtly embrace the followers of a system that has failed time and time again.
Right?
Just watch us! We loves poor stupid crybabies.
That Greedy Workers World Party still hasn't given me the fucking job I demanded for top wage and fat pension....
There's a communist paradise just south of Florida.
Vote with your feet, 99%'ers!
Si, we have free health care too!
This is what we are angry about
http://www.businessinsider.com.....11-10?op=1
Other than the high unemployment, which you can lay at the feet of government, I don't see anything bad in these charts. All the stuff at the end about banks misses the point, as it was government shovelling the money out. Little help?
When people start bitching about outcome inequality instead of opportunity inequality I know they are either hopefully stupid or totally disingenuous.
To be sure, this article does a great job of illustrating how messed up our government/bank complex really is. Yeah, banks are riding high on free profits from government. You have to be a moron to blame the banks and not the government.
You can also blame both, but I don't see the OWS people doing that. There seems to be a disconnect that prevents them from recognizing government's role in the meltdown.
Sorry - just re-read your comment and that's what you were saying.
FWIW, one of the things that was good about seeing the MSM throw charges of racism, etc. at the entirety of the Tea Party movement was that it made individual Tea Party supporters themselves get vocal about their opposition to racism.
I've heard about too many Ron Paul signs to label the whole Occupy movement as entirely anti-capitalist, and as a libertarian, anti-Imperial presidency guy, I certainly wouldn't condemn any anti-authoritarian movement--just for being to my left.
But if calling this movement anti-capitalist in its entirely provokes individuals within the movement to get vocal about their belief in capitalism (rather than the alliance between government and business), then just like that ultimately paved the way for the Tea Party to make some headway in mainstream America, that may do something to legitimize this anti-authoritarian movement on the center left too.
I'm keepin' my fingers crossed anyway. 'cause havin' some people on the left who oppose Obama on principle doesn't scare me any.
"just like that ultimately paved the way for the Tea Party to make some headway in mainstream America"
The Tea Party movement was (and is) mainstream America. Accusations of racism had (and has) nothing whatsoever to do with the influence of the Tea Party. The accusations were just a failed attempt to smear and demonize tens of millions of people. The liberal media must be very frustrated that the TP has no single leader that can be targeted and destroyed.
Um...yeah, that's what the true believers say.
I'm talking about sway with swing voters. The Tea Party was successful in the races it contested because it successfully countered charges of racism in the media. Middle/undecided/uncommitted Soccer Moms and elderly people will not vote for something they think is promulgating racism.
Likewise, suburbanites everywhere aren't about to sign off on candidates endorsed by Occupy Whatever people--if those people really are attacking suburbanites or their standard of living.
Occupy Whatever hasn't formed into a movement that endorses anything yet--but if it does? It won't be successful with uncommitted voters if it doesn't successfully defend itself against charges that it's hostile to hard work, saving your money and what most people recognize as American capitalism.
Like the Tea Party wouldn't have been successful if it hadn't successfully countered the charges that it was racist.
I don't see why any of this should be controversial.
Once again, the TP had a broad base of support before the attempts to smear it were really ginned up. Some polls were saying 40% of the public supported the TP. That was well before the elections and is a truly astonishing number for a spontaneous political movement.
The racism charges didn't stick, but they had nothing to do with the political will behind the movement. I didn't see any particularly vigorous effort on the part of the TP to counter the charges, other than flagging phony protestors at the TP rallies.
The accusation that 40% of U.S. citizens are so motivated by racial animus that they would support a political movement for that reason alone was too preposterous to fly, especially since the TP was consistently promoting a message of fiscal responsibility.
Maybe in the social circles in which you travel there were people willing to believe that the TP was somehow racist, but I saw no evidence at all that many people were buying into the smear. Americans have been listening to race hustlers for decades and are suitably sceptical when liberals start crying 'racism'.
As far as Occupy Wherever is concerned, it isn't going to amount to anything. Their numbers are tiny, despite the ridiculous amount of media coverage they are getting. Their behavior while protesting (dirty, vandalistic) is alien to most Americans. They have no coherent message. Everything suggests that Occupy Wherever is just astroturf. It will disappear when the organizers decide that they aren't scaring anyone and aren't provoking some response to spark the Revolution.
"Once again, the TP had a broad base of support before the attempts to smear it were really ginned up."
Yer outta yer mind.
When the Tea Party flared up, it happened outside both parties, and it was treated either as a bizarre sideshow or likened to the militia movement, anti-immigrant radicals and the Klan--all rolled up into one.
Hell, and that was in the very beginning! By the end, they started blaming the Tea Party for everything from kooks trying to crash their airplanes into things--to shooting spree/assassination attempts by kooks! All the Tea Party's fault, don't you know? They're so scaaaaaarrrrry!
The Tea Party didn't really get any legitimacy in the media at all until they won big in the midterms. The Tea Party won that fight despite what the media was saying...
Largely because they successfully defended themselves against charges of racism, etc. People don't want to vote for kooks and radicals. The Occupy Whatever movement as it stands right now couldn't win a seat on a city council anywhere outside of Santa Monica or San Francisco.
If they want to be successful, they're gonna have to convince people they aren't anti-capitalist--as most Americans understand that to mean. If they manage to do that, they may entice some people to oppose Obama from the left in the upcoming election.
...and for the life of me, I can't imagine why that would be a bad thing. Who's the Green Party candidate this time? I hope he or she ends up doing to Obama what Perot did to Bush Senior.
When the Tea Party flared up,... that was in the very beginning!
As I remember it, the Tea Party grew out of the town hall meetings in which irate citizens confronted law makers about the effort to pass HCR. At first, the media and law makers didn't know what the hell to make of it. Then, they tried to suggest that they were a marginal group. At one point Nancy Pelosi, the Great Dame herself, remarked in surprise, "It's not astroturf." It was at that point, when it was clear that the TP was not a small, marginal group, that the smear of last resort was tried. I believe it was on Nancy's gavel march that John Lewis claimed he had been called a nigger.
The Tea Party didn't really get any legitimacy in the media
That's the problem with your understanding right there. The TP had legitimacy from the beginning. The media tried to tear it down, but couldn't even get a start because the TP had such broad support from the public from the get go. Lots of people, even those who didn't normally pay attention to politics, were watching the GM bailouts, TARP and the HCR debate with revulsion. The TP grew from that.
Occupy is going nowhere because it doesn't stand for anything coherent and has no base of support. The organizers can PR and spin to their hearts content, but it won't matter because there isn't anything in Occupy's message, such as it is, with broad support that isn't already supported by the TP.
"As I remember it, the Tea Party grew out of the town hall meetings in which irate citizens confronted law makers about the effort to pass HCR."
I started paying attention when I saw Santelli's rant on Feb. 19, 2009. People started talking about what Santelli said about bailing out Wall Street and the deadbeats...
http://www.cnbc.com/id/3996681....._People_Up
He starts talking about having a "Tea Party" in Chicago--and people started showing up to throw tea bags in various bodies of water all over the country. That's when they started calling themselves "teabaggers" before they were aware of the vulgar connotation. They started out bringing tea bags to all their protests.
They got together, and they started talking to each other...online and elsewhere.
I remember seeing that rant live on CNBC. I was yelling at someone in my office at the time about it--Santelli said everything I was thinking.
The Tea Party came out of the bailouts--and it was a reaction to stuff like this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....58292.html
That's what Obama was did a couple of weeks earlier... The first thing he did when he got into office was take $350 billion out of our future paychecks and squander it on Wall Street.
Every time Obama did something to try to force Americans to make sacrifices for the common good, the Tea Party grew stronger and stronger.
When he was talking about how we're gonna have to learn to sacrifice for the environment around the oil spill, the Tea Party got stronger. Health Care Reform made the Tea Party grow stronger too, but it started with the bailouts.
Just like the original Boston Tea Party was a reaction to the British taxing the colonists to bail out the East India Tea Company.
Everything the Tea Party became after the bailouts was a step toward making themselves more palatable to centrist voters. And that's okay. They weren't libertarian enough for me, but that's okay! They made Obama change his tune. Obama's dialed back on the Progressivism big time since the midterms.
And the Occupy Whatever people are mad as hell about it. What we're seeing with the Occupy Whatever movement now is where the Tea Party was two weeks after Santelli's rant. Their movement may never amount to anything, but if they do become something? It'll be because they moderate their views to appeal to the left side of the center-left.
And that is good news for us if we don't like Obama. Everybody who starts to identify with that movement will be that much less likely to vote for Obama in the next election.
That's exactly right. And it's really going nowhere once the general public better understands what it truly is.
Not to get all "Glen Beck" on you (lol) but there's a lot more to the OWS protest than a bunch of kids in the park without any clear demands. Of course there are no clear demands or message other than some broad themes of discontent. It grew directly out of an effort intended solely for the purpose of turning people out that was lead by Adbusters and Kalle Lasn, a Spanish anarchist group, Anonymous, and some other similar groups. What would you expect from a bunch of culture jammers and anarchists? 😉
Actually, there are demands and the "kids in the park" thing largely is stage dresssing. Far from a "spontaneous" assembly as it's generally reflected in the popular media, this is just one part of a decentralized but coordinated effort that has been very well orchestrated from the start and much planning by the groups involved. They include the anarchists-type groups above, other radical groups on the left, activists like Steve Lerner who have been promoting the "Days of Rage" movement for a long time, less radical, more mainstream union groups, etc., etc., all of whom have been planning this specific protest long before it happened. If you don't know who these groups are then you should go look. And, again, it's not like it's some big secret conspiracy that they're hiding. You can go to their respective web sites, blogs, forums, etc., and see exactly what they're all about and that is in fact the case.
Largely, the message/objective is creating chaos for chaos sake, which then can be leveraged in various ways by various groups. That will become more apparent as this continues. Beyond the OSW protest itself, it extends far beyond that to a whole range of protests that have been planned for October and beyond, as reflected in the "Global Day of Protests" today. You don't think those mass-produced Guy Fawkes masks just magically appear all around the world at the same time do you? 😉
If you think this is some "spontaneous" movement related to cleaning up Wall Street, jobs, and money in Washington, then you really should do more research regarding the origins of this "movement." And for the record, no, I'm not a Fox-watching, Koch-snorting, right-wing conspiracy nut. I'm a hard-core independent without a distinct ideological focus which permits an objective, realistic view of all this, and who was a sympathetic supporter of this "movement" until I started to peek behind the curtain a little more. Not that there aren't real issues along the lines associated with the protests that need to be addressed, but this ain't that. It's more of an attempt to leverage that. Which is why I'm out.
It won't be successful with uncommitted voters if it doesn't successfully defend itself against charges that it's hostile to hard work, saving your money and what most people recognize as American capitalism.
Unless they watch Fox News, listen to Rush Limbaugh, and read Reason or WND those uncommitteds are never going to encounter the accusations against Occupy.
Whereas you could barely look at any news outlet without seeing accusations of racism and social darwinism leveled at the Tea Party.
"[In] 2011, the Chinese government prohibited on TV and films and in novels all stories that contain alternate reality or time travel," Zizek declared. "This is a good sign for China. It means that people still dream about alternatives, so you have to prohibit this dream. Here, we don't think of prohibition. Because the ruling system has even oppressed our capacity to dream.
That's some weapons-grade imbecility.
Slavoj Zizek = TheTruth ?
It's like one of those games in Highlights. Spot all the inconsistencies and logical errors in Zizek's speech. There are probably enough to cause a 1960s computer to set on fire.
I am sure there is a "right" to punch some idiot who says "A Job is a Right".
I just can't find it in the constitution - either yours or ours.
Can somebody help me out on this?
🙂
You're a Canuckistani, I'm sure I can find some sort of DX and ICD-9 to medically absolve you.
Some sort of George Constanza neuro-muscular disorder should suffice.
9th Amendment:
"The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Some rights are just protected by juries, but a jury trial is like a box of chocolates.
Like the right to kill black people in the Jim Crow South.
...."HIRE ME"
When something as whacked as Dodd-Frank with its disincentives for investing is your last best hope, you may want to bet on another horse.
"it is more important than ever that liberals make a compelling case for our vision of America"
I'd really like to hear what is the liberals' vision of America. I'm pretty sure it will come out sounding like Stalinist Russia. But maybe I'm wrong.
To the asshole in the pic that thinks a job is a right: There's a metric fuckton of produce in Alabama that's not being picked right now. What the fuck are you waiting for?
Is a fuckton bigger than a megaton or between a kiloton and a megaton.
Snark aside, I agree with your point. But you know the rejoinder would be "We mean decent jobs." (Which is code for a no-effort, no-stress, high-paying job from which you can't be fired for any reason other than supporting Team Red.)
In a couple of years there will probably be robots that can do that kind of work.
I was thinking the same thing. Then you'll have MEXICANS out there saying "DEY TURK UR JERBS!"
I think you mean "?Tomaron nuestros empleos!"
Those jobs have Mexican cooties.
"Classical" liberals do believe in capitalism (or at least free markets).
But modern liberals are "progressive" who are basically socialists.
...Modern American Progressives are basically fascists.
....the creep now supports Obama and all the Obama military expansionism....
TNR has always been a mere gatekeeper of Respectable Mainstream Opinion, a holding tank for hack hangers-on to the coattails of those in power. Anything appearing in its pages is guaranteed not to upset the Washington elite. Hell, Andrew Sullivan was the editor for five years, which is a damning indictment if I've ever heard one.
As for the article ? every good Democrat knows that to change anything you have to play by the rules: vote for a party of thieves fronted by a leader with a shitload of campaign contributions and advisers drawn from Wall Street, then beg him to tinker around the edges of a broken system with regulatory-capture-prone legislative abortions that will only make the corruption worse.
This is one of the opening shots in what will be a long and nauseating campaign to demonize any attempts to outflank Obama from the left. And it is gonna be nasty. There was already a dustup on the progressive blogs a few days ago over whether liberals who've given up on Obama are (a) racist, or (b) just stupid.
Anyway, Dodd?Frank is stupid, the "regulation" is the problem, and TNR needs to go out of business once and for fucking all.