Rick Perry's Criminal Justice Record

In this week's column, I discuss the case of Tim Cole, who was convicted of rape based on mistaken eyewitness tetimony and died while serving a 25-year sentence in a Texas prison. (He was denied parole twice because he refused to accept responsibility for a crime he did not commit.) I mentioned that a court of inquiry exonerated Cole based on DNA evidence in 2009, but I did not mention that Gov. Rick Perry granted him a posthumous pardon in 2010. That decision is one of 20 or so that Grits for Breakfast blogger Scott Henson, reviewing the governor's record on criminal justice issues, counts in Perry's favor. Perry also granted pardons to 35 people who were convicted of trumped-up charges as a result of drug stings in Tulia, Texas, and supported legal reforms inspired by that scandal. He signed bills aimed at reducing arrests for minor offenses, preventing and correcting wrongful convictions, and improving compensation for exonerees. He vetoed a bill, proposed in the wake of the 2009 raid on fundamentalist Mormons at the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Eldorado, that would have allowed the government to seize children without notifying their parents.

Henson says "there are many counterexamples," several of which he cites: Perry vetoed a 2005 bill that would have banned searches during traffic stops without probable cause or written consent, his clemency record "borders on pitiful" (but still probably compares favorably to Barack Obama's so far), and he seemed intent on sabotaging the Forensic Science Commission's re-investigation of the fatal fire for which Todd Willingham was executed in 2004. This juxtaposition illustrates Perry's mixed record: In 2001 he vetoed a bill that would have banned arrests for Class C misdemeanors (the maximum penalty for which is a $500 fine), while in 2007 he signed a bill that allowed police to issue citations insteading of making arrests for various Class B and Class C misdemeanors, including marijuana possession. Henson concludes that "Perry's record on criminal justice is more moderate and complex than his fire breathing pronouncements on the death penalty might lead one to expect."

Comments

[Doktor Kapitalism]

So, is this pro or anti Perry. It's been a long week and my sarcasm detector--among other things--is out of whack.

In other news, this was a promoted video on Youtube, though they've probably been tracking me.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Le.....=democracy

[Doktor Kapitalism]

In other news, my first first. Now here's Steve with sports.

[Steve]

Thanks Dok.

It was an exciting first night of college football last night, though some programs suffered a few initial setbacks. UK ran 13 plays in the first quarter and only gained 1...that's ONE...total offensive yard against that perennial powerhouse (sarcasm) the Western Kentucky Hilltoppers.

Now over to Brick with the weather.

[Tman]

Thanks Steve.

HURRICANE!EARTHQUAKE! TSUANMI!VOLCANOES!DROUGHTS!
WE'RE ALL GONNNAAA DIIEEEE!!!!!

Back to the Doktor with more news.

[sasob]

Why, yes - yes we are, sooner or later.

[Tulpa]

You're the worst anchor ever.

[The Internet]

Well, you're the worst poster ever.

[Kent Brockman]

A new toxin found in baby foods may kill your children. but first, here's Robin with a story that proves we're in the dog days of summer.

[Kent Brockman]

A new toxin found in baby foods may kill your children. but first, here's Robin with a story that proves we're in the dog days of summer.

[STEVE]

RAPING SEASON JUST BEGINNING. STEVE SMITH OUT OF SPRING TRAINING AND READY FOR RAPE GAMES. HOPEFULLY STEVE SMITH WILL BRING HOME RAPE PENNANT LIKE EVERY YEAR.

[Alan Vanneman]

I'm your biggest fan!

[I'll field this one]

"So, is this pro or anti Perry. It's been a long week and my sarcasm detector--among other things--is out of whack."

Some kind of 'nuanced' bullshit looks like.

But no sweat because you see, we're Libertarians, so that means we're automatically anti-everyone!

[Episiarch]

DANCE!

[BakedPenguin]

He must be the DANCE Commander!

[Episiarch]

That's just disturbing.

[capitol l]

I couldn't stop watching that, weird.

I imagine that is how our indigenous caucasian spends his time in between posts.

[BakedPenguin]

That's just disturbing.

On a lot of levels. It helps if you don't take it seriously.

I imagine that is how our indigenous caucasian spends his time in between posts.

On a lot of levels. It helps if you don't take him seriously.

[rsi]

Fuck this nuance crap. Good or bad?

[Fist of Etiquette]

In other news, this was a promoted video on Youtube...

I will be good goddamned if I will allow anyone to force a definition of a consistent and principled libertarian on me.

[mad libertarian guy]

It seems to me that the writer is trying to convince me that the shit he spread on the bread is really pumpkin butter.

[Pat L]

Still waiting on Mr. Sullum's list of civilized countries that have legalized hard drugs? Also am waiting for that story written about how after prohibition ended the Mafia dried up and went away.

[dbcooper]

Drugs in your pocket?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....kGUJYLLwVq

[M. Simon]

Let's Alinsky the TEA Party:

This will actually hit them where it will hurt. Make them live up to their ideals. If they can.

I never noticed a Prohibition Amendment. Except for Alcohol.

Think of all the Conservative Constitutionalists heads exploding over that one.

[DRM]

So, actually looking at the clemency numbers with a knowledge of how the Texas system works, Rick Perry granted clemency 34.55% of the time it was legally within his power to do so.

That's probably lower than the ideal percentage given that he can't grant clemency unless it's been recommended by the Board of Pardons and Paroles, yes.

[Fist of Etiquette]

...and he seemed intent on sabotaging the Forensic Science Commission's re-investigation of the fatal fire for which Todd Willingham was executed in 2004.

That always seemed like a pretty big one. Whatever good we think he's done, he should still be thoroughly excoriated for that execution.

[Britt]

You have to keep in mind that the POTUS has an unlimited power to pardon, except in case of impeachment. The TX governor does not have the power to pardon, but the power to enact pardons approved by the Board.

The pardon power is why I have no stomach for the "political considerations" argument when it comes to libertarian policy. Obama could sit down every morning and pardon everyone convicted of violating the Controlled Substances Act the previous day. The power to pardon is the power, in reality, for an executive to nullify unconstitutional laws for as long as they hold the office.

[Doktor Kapitalism]

You might want to suggest that to RP and GJ. Might be a good campaign talking point.

[mad libertarian guy]

I doubt it.

As much as I and anyone who values liberty would welcome it, you can be sure that both Teams' establishments would spin it as "Paul set on allowing hordes of convicted criminals run the streets".

It would never work. Any support he might gain in getting drug users to go and vote would be lost by statist tards who somehow see virtue in the WoD flocking to vote for anyone else.

If you gave the vast majority of Law and Order conservatives the choice between Obama, and a Ron Paul who has openly vowed to pardon every drug conviction, Obama would get their vote.

[Britt]

Eh, you throw out a long list of rah rah Team RED hating laws you'd issue blanket pardons for and throw the Controlled Substances Act in the middle of the list. "If elected I would issue pardons for all those convicted of violations of Campaign Finance Reform, Sarbannes-Oxley, Obamacare, National Firearms Act, Gun Control Act, NRLB regulations, etc. etc. When they start cheering, mutter PATRIOT ACT and Controlled Substances Act.

Honestly, law and order conservatism arose because violent felons were being released in droves in the 60s and 70s because bullshit liberal academic theory said that hardened predators who rob, rape, and kill are in fact delicate snowflakes who needed therapy and work release.

It really doesn't take much to convince a Republican voter to turn against the WOD. The WOD is unconstitutional, leads to abuse of government power, costs a lot of money, and leads to actual violent criminals being released so potheads can go to prison. Republicans (males ones, don't even try it with soccer moms..their Xanax scrip is totally not drug use) are a lot more amenable to a persuasive argument then Dems are, in my experience. Dems are much more likely to get all "Top Men! Top Men!" The hard part is convincing Republican politicians. Again, anecdotal and IMHO.

[Mr. FIFY]

Some liberals love the WoD, too. Charlie Rangel just being one of them.

[mad libertarian guy]

The WoD is universally loved on both Teams. Team RED gets to sport candidates who are "Tough on Crime" while Team BLUE gets to prostitute themselves to police/prison guard unions. The entire Prison Industrial Complex is completely dependent on the WoD, and neither Team is ready to dismantle huge swaths of government.

For both teams, The WoD is a win-win.

[Amakudari]

The other issue is who will actually change his vote for a revised drug policy. Potheads make reliable Democrats/non-voters and are thus lousy activists. Drug warriors like the elderly or Christian conservatives will happily stay home or vote for the other guy.

In other words, lukewarm majority support won't be enough to overturn the WoD.

[M. Simon]

I never noticed a Prohibition Amendment. Except for Alcohol.

Think of all the Conservative Constitutionalists heads exploding over that one.

[Joe M]

In 2001 he vetoed a bill that would have banned arrests for Class C misdemeanors (the maximum penalty for which is a $500 fine), while in 2007 he signed a bill that allowed police to issue citations insteading of making arrests for various Class B and Class C misdemeanors, including marijuana possession.

Hah, where's dunphy? This is clearly a case of Perry wanting LEOs to have the discretion of when to arrest, rather than being outright forbidden by the legislature.

[dunphy]

this doesn't even make sense.

first, it seems a little strange (in the state i come from) that a misdemeanor (iow a crime) can only result in a civil penalty. so, it's arrestable? but there is only a fine if convicted? does that mean the evidence standard is civil or criminal.

outside my experience. i have no comment

i am assuming by citations in the second part they mean INFRACTION citations, since cops can issue citations for pretty much any misdemeanor in any state, unless it's a statutory MANDATORY arrest, which is the case in almost every state ONLY for certain dv crimes.

iow, it's so vaguely written, it speaks more to the poor reporting than to perry's record, because there's not enough info to even understand wtf it actually means

[The Internet]

or you're just not smart enough, which also explains why you're acop

[dunphy]

ok, i actually lol'd

so i'd give that a

troll-o-meter: 6

which is a "it's got a beat and i can dance to it"

nice job

[M. Simon]

I never noticed a Prohibition Amendment. Except for Alcohol.

[cynical]

So, basically, he can either be hard on crime or not-as-hard on crime depending on which is polling better?

[Spencer]

^^THIS^^

[Ten Little Indian Boys]

consistent and principled libertarian

Are "Libertarians" for the City-State, or against it?

White Indian sure brings out hearty support for the State -- and immense contempt for Non-State sociopolitical typologies -- from "Libertarians" who rant about "Statists" so much.

Also, he has done a good job of explaining how abstract ownership of mother earth via Privation Property is a contradiction of the Non-Aggression Principle.

["Libertarians"]

Are "Libertarians" for the City-State, or against it?

We are "Spartans"!

[heller]

I wiped my butt with Walden today.

[Apatheist]

Thoreau wouldn't put up with white indian's bullshit

[mad libertarian guy]

There are some things that White Fucktard has done a good job at; convincing anyone that he is sane isn't one of them.

[Galt's Brief on Snarling]

"The secret of all their esoteric philosophies, of all their dialectics and super-technology, of their evasive eyes and snarling words, the secret for which they destroy Mother Earth, Forests, the Seas and Mother Earth's children, the secret for which they pierce their own eyes and eardrums, grind out their senses, blank out their minds, the purpose for which they dissolve the absolutes of reason, logic, matter, existence, reality-is to erect upon that plastic fog a single holy absolute: their Wish.

"The restriction they seek to escape is the Laws of Ecology. The freedom they seek is freedom from the fact that Mother Earth remains in charge."

~Primitive Galt
Galt's Brief from the Gulch

[Fluffy]

I don't think you understand - remotely - what Rand meant by a "Wish".

If you look at a tree and wish you had stack of firewood, and get pissed off that other people have firewood and you don't, and demand that someone else be compelled to come along and make you some firewood, that's a "Wish".

If you grab yourself an axe and chop that fucking tree down and split it into wood and stack in up in neat cords, that's not a "Wish". That's "productive work".

This public service announcement has been brought to you by the good people of the Fuck You You Stupid Stone Age Fucking Aborigines Association of America.

[White Indian]

I don't think you understand - remotely - what Galt's Brief meant by a "Wish".

If you look at a Peak Oil and wish you had Fusion Energy, and get pissed off that other people in Science Fiction Novels have Fusion Energy and you don't, and hope that someone else be a Cargo Cult Leader like John Frum who will come along and invent you some endless Fusion Energy, that's a "Wish".

[Fluffy]

No, not at all.

I can only take responsibility for myself and my own time.

Other people from other times will have to take responsibility for themselves.

Maybe they'll invent new energy sources and be rich.

Maybe they won't and they'll be poor.

Either way, that's their affair.

In any event, even if they end up poor, then they're no worse off than they would be as hunter-gatherers. Because hunter-gatherers are dirt poor savage loser douchebags. So even if agricultural / technological civilization collapses and humanity reverts to poor savage loser douchebaggery, we're no worse off than we would be if we followed your suggestions.

[White Indian]

So 99% of your ancestors were dirt poor savage loser douchebags.

I believe it.

But mine lived in The Original Affluent Society. http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm

[capitol l]

Have you ever been hunting? Killed your own food? Field dressed the animal and prepared the meat for consumption?

[White Indian]

Yeah, all of it. Got a problem with that?

[capitol l]

How did you kill the animal, and what type of animal was it?

Just curious, asshole.

[White Indian]

Just curious, asshole.

How are those "civilized" "cultured" social skills working for you?

[capitol l]

Never claimed any, cum-sponge.

[Fluffy]

I neither know nor care if my "ancestors" were douchebags or not.

What are you, some kind of racist?

Assigning yourself personal characteristics based on what you claim about your "ancestors" is pretty much straight up RACIST, dude.

[White Indian]

But calling aborigines poor savage loser douchebaggery isn't racist. Gosh, I couldn't have figured that out for myself. Thanks, Fluffy, for the lesson in logic. Or is it psychological projection? LOL

[Fluffy]

Yeah, it's not racist.

Because if you took any of those aborigines out of their culture and put them in ours, they'd be fine.

It's their circumstances that are inferior, and not them as a matter of genetics.

You, OTOH, are asserting that you have better personal characteristics than me based on your ancestors. Which is the definition of racism.

[The Internet]

"poor savage loser douchebaggery isn't racist"

I agree, nice of you to see some sense. Took your meds finally?

[The Internet]

"But mine lived in The Original Affluent Society."

Yeah, how'd that work out? Oh right, people found something better and left.

[Stripper Jesus]

People don't go to civilization voluntarily much.

Premise Two: Traditional communities do not often voluntarily give up or sell the resources on which their communities are based until their communities have been destroyed. They also do not willingly allow their landbases to be damaged so that other resources?gold, oil, and so on?can be extracted. It follows that those who want the resources will do what they can to destroy traditional communities. ~Derrick Jensen, Endgame http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm

[Spencer]

Unless it's for beads or booze.

[heller]

Idiot, no one forces cultures to adopt technology. Ever heard of cargo cults?

[White Indian]

Ever hear of the Trail of Tears? No? When do you get to 7th grade history class?

P.S. looking in the teacher's 40x microscope does indeed make you a microbiology expert...keep up the good work.

[heller]

Ever heard of a non sequitur? You must have since you use them all the time.

The Trail of Tears had nothing to do with technology, it was a land grab.

[heller]

Also, I would like to hear what you do for a living (nudist colony towel boy?) and then say you don't do it.

[White Indian #34]

Agriculture is a technology. Look up the definition.

[heller]

So the Trail of Tears forced Native Americans to adopt agriculture?

Try to keep up with the argument, retard.

[Fluffy]

The Cherokees had adopted agriculture and lived in a civilized state with a government.

They were in every way at a cultural level far above that of, say, Ancient Sumer.

They were most definitely NOT hunter-gatherers.

The Trail of Tears was an atrocity, but it absolutely was not an atrocity inflicted by an agricultural state-based society on a non-agricultural non-state.

Your problem is that you only know postage-stamp history and don't appear to know a lot about actual events.

[White Indian]

The Cherokee had adopted horticulture, (today more often called permaculture) which is consistent with their egalitarian tribal Non-State sociopolitical typology.

For a lesson in the difference between horticulture and agriculture see:

Agriculture or Permaculture: Why Words Matter
by Jason Godesky | 13 June 2007
http://www.rewild.info/anthrop.....ds-matter/

And yeah, the Cherokee were definitely hunter-gatherers, supplementing, especially in later years, with horticulture.

[pffft]

Too bad the Cherokee never invented the wheel, or writing or domesticated any animals except the dogs that they fucked.

[Mr. FIFY]

I wonder if WF owns any property...

[WF]

Of course, all humans have owned property. But not abstract ownership of Mother Earth's surface and air and rivers by privation property "rights."

Read up, if you can comprehend the difference. Note especially the citation from attorney Jeff Vail regarding "abstract ownership" in the following:

The Right to Property
by Jason Godesky | 18 July 2005
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....index.html

[Mr. FIFY]

Let us know when you are ready to dives of every bit of property.

Until then, you are just fucking stOOpid to admonish others for owning things or land.

[White Indian]

Within a prison enforced by violence, having your own food tray for the mess hall is a necessity to live.

The captors would love to punish dissenters just the way you are proposing, because you like the prison, instead of wanting to see it torn down.

[For or Against the City-State?]

Nothing but evasion from the libertarian propertarians. They know the State (civilization) is necessary for their entitlement program to privation property.

To escape it-if he's chosen an irrational Standard-he will fake, evade, blank out; he will cheat himself of reality, of existence, of happiness, of mind; and he will ultimately cheat himself of self-esteem by struggling to preserve its illusion rather than to risk discovering its lack. To fear to face an issue is to believe that the worst is true.

~Primitive Galt
Galt's Radio Brief from the Gulch

[White Rearden Injun]

Mr. Mowen stared dazedly about him and whispered to Paul Larkin, "Something's gone screwy here." "Oh, shut up!" snapped Larkin.

How is it that White Indian is so effectively using Ayn Rand's words against her snarling acolytes?

He's amazing. He's a superman!

[The Internet]

He's deluding himself! He's logically inconsistent and a proven liar!

He's from India so who cares what he thinks of US policy!

[The Internet]

"Also, he has done a good job of explaining how abstract ownership of mother earth via Privation Property is a contradiction of the Non-Aggression Principle."

Actually, he's (you've) completely failed at that. Every single argument has been effectively and totally rebutted.

[White Indian]

Just like you did now, so effectively, right? I'm amazed.

It's like I'm in Monty Python's argument clinic.

[pffft]

Monty Python is a copyrighted product of the white man prison society. You have right to mention it in any of your posts.

[Some Guy]

His record seems wildly inconsistent and troubling. Too bad it is also better than 90% of modern presidential candidates.

Now if only he started pardoning people pre-humously.

[Robert]

How does it compare to the avg. modern person? How about the avg. modern American?

[Some Guy]

Pretty hard to determine how an average person would use clemency powers. I would assume he'd be about average, which is sad.

[Tulpa]

OK Reason, you need to find some new Rick Perry photos. You've used this one like 17 times in the past couple of weeks.

[heller]

Hey don't rush them. It only took them a year to get a new Loughner pic.

[Ted S.]

They're too busy hawking some crappy book to look for new photos.

[sloopyinca]

What's this news about a book from Reason?

Please, go on.

[Quote]

"We ignore politics most of the time."

[Quote]

Seriously!

[Fatty Bolger]

Some fantasy novel, "Revenge of the Independents" or something like that.

[Coeus]

Completely off topic:

If you won't have sex with a girl on her period you're obviously a misygonist.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/a.....eriod-sex/

The crazy is reaching critical levels.

[Tulpa]

Wait, the feminists are now pro-sex?

[Coeus]

That's the crazy shit. It's not about sex, its about the making damn sure that women are put on that pedestal (which has been the point of the feminist movement since they got the right to vote).

A good many of the comments basically read: I don't like having sex on my period, but if a guy says that he doesn't, then he's gone.

I think that this sums it up nicely:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/ind.....2352#comic

[dunphy]

these people are idiots. reminds me of the feministing chix. i used to blog there occasionally, but their refusal to even consider that the duke accuser was full o' shit from the beginning, and given more and more mounting (heh) evidence was absurd.

that case stunk from the beginning and only got worse, but she HAD to be telling the truth, according to the feministing ideologues.

[Ted S.]

Since gay men won't have sex with women at all, does that make them misogynists? 🙂

[sloopyinca]

Show of hands. Who's earned their red wings as well?

[sheepishly raises own hand]

[Ray]

Kool Aid stache wearer.

[Anonymous Coward]

[raises hand]

Like the fall of Masada, never again.

[Amakudari]

Yes.

But thanks for the article, guy above. I didn't realize I was a misogynist until now.

I made it "I am a pansexual cisgendered lady" before I stopped because I was about to reconsider my policy on carpet-bombing.

[Zuo]

Once I again, I ask the readers of REASON: why the fuck would you see any redeeming value in something that amounts to a giant bloody nose between the legs ALL THE TIME (okay, 1/3-1/4 of the time...) Fuuuuu.

[nobody]

Weekend Thread Jack that will probably not be read -

Timothy Egan in the NYTs reviews the Ken Burns documentary and accompanying book about Prohibition, waves away the comparison to the War on Drugs, and says the most applicable modern comparison to the dark days of Prohibition are the "monomaniacal anti-tax pressure groups and their foot soldiers, the increasingly unpopular Tea Party." As always, the comments make me wonder if I belong to a different species.

These people are fucking sick.

[Coeus]

Holy shit. First highlighted comment is in support of prohibition.

While I agree with your political point, and learned something I did not know about the connection between anti-immigrant hatred and prohibition, I strongly disagree with your statement that the decision to drink is a purely private one. In fact, since about half of the population does not drink, and about 10% are alcoholics, most of the alcohol in this country is sold to people who drink too much. Alcohol manufacturers are profiting at the expense of all of the rest of us.

Not really helping the thesis that it's the "no new taxes" people who are like the prohibitionists, is it?

[Doktor Kapitalism]

For a time in grade school, I was pretty sure I was an alien.

And, maybe libertarians are half neanderthal, an no one knows.

http://www.dailytech.com/Neand.....e22555.htm

[CoyoteBlue]

Actually we're the next step in evolution. In 20 generations we'll have giant throbbing brains.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lpL8.....losian.JPG

[grrizzly]

I actually distinguish Timothy Egan from other hacks in the NYT. He's more reliably brain-dead than the rest.

[Crazy Libertarian Sick Fucks]

If you don't beat the shit out of a slave mom as a way to provide access to medical care for sick children, you're obviously a misygonist.

If voluntary slavery is legal, we can consummate this financial arrangement, to our mutual gain. If not, not, to the great loss of both of us. Slave-master Rafe would never shell out the cold cash if, after he paid, I could haul him into court on assault and battery charges when he whipped me. Then, without this financial arrangement, I would have to witness the death of my child, probably the most devastating thing that can ever happen to a parent.

In opposing voluntary slavery, Mair thus exposes himself as a cruel, heartless beast. A baby killer, even.

Voluntary Slave Contracts
by Walter Block
http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block134.html

Next, Libertarian Snuff Films?

LIBERTARIAN MASTER: Do you own your body?
MOM: [holding sick child] Yes.?
MASTER: And what can you do with property you own?
MOM: Sell it?
MASTER: Correct. Do you voluntarily sell yourself to me so I'll pay for your child's health care?
MOM: Yes, I'm desperate.
MASTER: Answer yes or no, and then sign here.
MOM: Yes. [signs contract]
MASTER: Did you once own your body, bitch?
SLAVE MOM: Yes, Master.
?MASTER: Now I own you. What can an owner do with any property??
SLAVE MOM: Dispose of it?
?MASTER: That's right, bitch. [BANG!] [fap fap fap fap fap fap fap]

[heller]

*yawn*

*wipes butt with anarcho-primitivist dribble*

Look I'm hunting and gathering toilet paper!

[The Internet]

"Crazy Libertarian Sick Fucks"

Aww look who is upset.

[heller]

Yes, please give me more toilet paper.

[White Indian]

Who's upset? I was just mocking terminology I saw earlier today here. I do that often, and it's amazing how you don't mind other saying such, but do pay particular attention to when I say exactly the same thing.

Is it because I'm so pretty? Are you just flirting in a nerdy propertarian way?

[heller]

"Towel boy! We need a towel over here!"

I think you have some nudists to attend to.

[Fluffy]

So, wait -

Are you saying that voluntary BDSM should be illegal and that everyone who engages in it is a sick fuck who should go to jail?

'Cause it definitely, definitely ain't my thing, but I don't see any difference between holding such an opinion and believing that, say, all homosexuals should be put in jail.

[Crazy Libertarian Sick Fucks]

So are you saying that once a human is owned as a slave, that whipping them is not assault and battery? That's what Block implies, and that's what I'm mocking.

And if whipping a "voluntary" slave's body isn't viewed as assault and battery, then how could killing property be legally wrong in a Libertarian people-are-mere-property society?

Block is NOT describing a little bit of sexual kink. He's describing real slavery by contract with real harm and other possible consequences.

My main point is this: people are not property, thus the whole "do you own yourself" is a switch-and-bait tactic of the libertarian propertarian economists' goal to turn people -- the ultimate resource! -- into property, at least on a partial basis as wage slaves.

[Fluffy]

Well, since I think prostitution should be legal, and I think that voluntary BDSM should be legal, I'm pretty much forced to conclude that voluntary BDSM prostitution should be legal.

I don't think you can sell your body as property. You can sell the performance of certain acts, though.

But the person selling those acts can always renege on their contract and let the other party take them to court.

So, yeah, I can sell you the right to whip me, and while we're engaged in that activity it's not assault and battery. But if halfway through I decide it sucks, and I announce that I'm not completing the contract, your recourse is to take me to court - and if you say, "Fuck that!" and keep whipping me, then you're guilty of assault and battery.

I don't see any way to justify the notion that you have the moral authority to prevent someone from engaging in prostitution. Because to tell me I can't be a prostitute if I fucking feel like it (even if the only reason I'm even asserting that is to perversely engage in this very argument) means that you own me. So your solution to the problem of people being turned into property, you want to turn people into property. Nice solution.

[White Indian]

People aren't mere property, as libertarians propertarians assume with their "do you own yourself" proselytizing.

[The Internet]

"I don't think you can sell your body as property"

"People aren't mere property"

Yeah, that's what fluffy said fuckwit. Thank you for admitting you were wrong.

[White Indian]

Everything is property to propertarians, including humans. That's why they go around proselytizing "do you own yourself?"

What else is to be owned other than property?

[BigT]

Many humans have been owned by others. All Russians were literally owned by the Tsar, as have been slaves in many cultures. Were they not property? Then what?

Just because you don't approve of something does not mean it did/does not exist.

[rhofulster]

"But if halfway through I decide it sucks, and I announce that I'm not completing the contract, your recourse is to take me to court - and if you say, "Fuck that!" and keep whipping me, then you're guilty of assault and battery."

Exactly right

[White Indian]

Propertarians are just sure contracts are a sure way of fucking over people with the fine print. Reality...well...

BDSM activity, even where clearly consensual, can be and frequently is prosecuted under state criminal laws dealing with assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault or sexual abuse.

CONSENT and BDSM: The State of the Law
https://ncsfreedom.org/key-programs/consent-counts/consent-counts/item/580-consent-and-bdsm-the-state-of-the-law.html

[heller]

Why do you think the coercive actions of the state have any weight with libertarians? Retard.

[White Indian]

Oh, right, you think murder is morally acceptable because there are "coercive" state laws against it. I forgot, heller, common law has no weight with you.

[heller]

Nope, libertarian morality holds that murder is unacceptable. Dumb fuck.

[White Indian]

Oh, gotcha heller's angel. But "assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault or sexual abuse" are all fine. Quite the "weighty" principles ya got there.

[heller]

No none of those are fine. Of course, if you agree to be beaten up, it isn't assault. If you agree to have sex, it isn't rape. Don't you know the difference you fucked up little retard?

[White Indian]

me: ...criminal laws dealing with assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault or sexual abuse...

you: Why do you think the coercive actions of the state have any weight with libertarians? Retard.

[then finally]

No none of those are fine.

Super. Equivocate much?

[heller]

Your sophistry is off the charts, retard. Consensual BDSM is NOT assault or rape. Just as any consensual sex cannot be considered rape. Therefore the state treating it as such has no bearing on libertarian thought.

[White Indian]

Apparently, common law juries differ with you, rather often.

[heller]

Here is how much I could give about common law juries deciding that consensual sex is rape: not a flying fuck.

But since you seem to think it's important, what do you think common law juries say about property? Or about insane fucksticks like you? Forced institutionalization anyone?

[anon]

You're truly an idiot. What kind of moron would sign a contract that lets the counterparty whip and beat them?

Contracts for indentured servitude are no different than any business transaction really. When we produce, we give a part of our lives in exchange for a bit of capital. Of course, we don't let the purchasers of our goods beat us and kill us; it's not part of the contract.

So in short, take your straw man arguments and shove them up your ass.

[White Indian]

straw man arguments

They're Walter Block's - a senior fellow at the Mises Institute - arguments. Or straw man arguments, if you prefer. John Stossel was lauding affection on Block a week ago on R.corn.

we don't let the purchasers of our goods beat us and kill us; it's not part of the contract

Working more than 48 hours per week doubles the rate of cardiovascular disease.

So you were saying?

[anon]

And you can show me where this man actually published these arguments, not taken out of context?

Please, demonstrate your sources!

[anon]

And if whipping a "voluntary" slave's body isn't viewed as assault and battery, then how could killing property be legally wrong in a Libertarian people-are-mere-property society?

Block is NOT describing a little bit of sexual kink. He's describing real slavery by contract with real harm and other possible consequences.

My main point is this: people are not property, thus the whole "do you own yourself" is a switch-and-bait tactic of the libertarian propertarian economists' goal to turn people -- the ultimate resource! -- into property, at least on a partial basis as wage slaves.

Just to clarify, this is YOUR argument. Not Blocks. Block asserts that that indentured servitude should be legal - voluntary slavery. Nobody would sign a contract where they could be beaten and killed unless they specifically wanted to be beaten and murdered.

You set up the straw man that slavery implies murder and assault. Indentured servitude implies neither.

[White Indian]

Indentured servants get WHIPPED? He uses the word "whip" twice in the first article.

Again, anon, thanks for proving that Fibertarians will lie out their ass as much as a Fundamentalist Islamist claiming their religions is one of peace.

Voluntary Slave Contracts
by Walter Block
http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block134.html

Block, along with Robert Nozick, is one of the leading libertarian defenders of voluntary slave contracts, arguing that a slave contract is "a bona fide contract where consideration crosses hands; when it is abrogated, theft occurs". He critiques other libertarians who oppose voluntary slavery as being inconsistent with their shared principles. Block seeks to make "a tiny adjustment" which "strengthens libertarianism by making it more internally consistent." He argues that his position shows "that contract, predicated on private property [can] reach to the furthest realms of human interaction, even to voluntary slave contracts."[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Block

[The Internet]

Doesn't say anything about whipping or beating liar.

[White Indian]

"Whip me" is in there twice, liar. Look it up on The Internet. The more honest one.

[heller]

There's nothing wrong with voluntarily agreeing to be whipped and beaten. Your mom does it every night anyway.

[White Indian]

Block offers the "voluntary slave contract" as preventing the degraded human property from taking the "libertarian master" to court for the beating and being charged with "assault and battery."

"Slave-master Rafe would never shell out the cold cash if, after he paid, I could haul him into court on assault and battery charges when he whipped me. ~Walter Block

[heller]

Yup, if you agree to being beaten and whipped you can't sue the person for doing it. Pretty simple.

[White Indian]

Obviously you're not getting much heller' angel, even if being degraded is the only kind of sex you can get as a biker groupie.

BDSM activity, even where clearly consensual, can be and frequently is prosecuted under state criminal laws dealing with assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault or sexual abuse.

CONSENT and BDSM: The State of the Law
https://ncsfreedom.org/key-programs/consent-counts/consent-counts/item/580-consent-and-bdsm-the-state-of-the-law.html

[heller]

BDSM activity, even where clearly consensual, can be and frequently is prosecuted under state criminal laws dealing with assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault or sexual abuse.

Wow, so the state interfering in voluntary sex is supposed to prove me wrong? Not only is that an example of state coercion, it also has nothing to do with the Block hypothetical, which is about one party bringing charges to court, not the state.

But yeah since you can't provide any logical reason why someone who agrees to being beaten should then be able to entrap the other party in court, you lose.

[capitol l]

I've read what Block has had to say on this subject before, and his stance is neither mine nor the majority of libertarians. I will conceded that your portrayal of Block's position regarding the slavery contract isn't that far off.

To assign Block's controversial view to all libertarians as a way to argue against them is disingenuous to say the least.

If you wish to argue with Walter Block, then I suggest you find his email and send him a note with your concerns, cum-sponge.

[White Indian]

Block's view of humans as property is complete and logical to propertarian dogma. Most libertarians don't take their "do-you-own-yourself" humans-as-property fetish quite so completely and logically, I agree; they are held back by traditional morality.

Jesus never said, "Thou shalt own thy neighbor as thyself," right?

[heller]

So you don't own your body? Well then don't complain when you get raped or have your fingers cut off. After all you have no more right to your body than anyone else if it isn't your property.

[White Indian]

Humans are not property, thus "own" (which is what one does to inanimate objects one needs to survive or use) is a poor way to relate to oneself or any other.

Do you "use" yourself?

Do you "lease" yourself?

Do you "exploit" yourself?

Do you "dominate" yourself?

Do you "have ascendancy over" yourself?

All sound kinda silly?

So does your propertarian proselytizing. So run off, and don't get your Watchtower Society issued tie caught in your wheel spokes, or I'll have to ask:

Do you tangle with yourself?

[heller]

Do you "use" yourself?

Yes. I use my body every day. Do you use your brain? Guess not...

Do you "lease" yourself?

Yup, it's called having a job.

But since you don't own your body, you don't use your body, and you don't trade labor for money? Sounds pretty silly. No wait, sounds retarded. Retard.

[White Indian]

I suppose a heller's angel biker groupie would use and abuse themself as a leased-out propertarian wage slave.

White Indian no slave property to Master.

White Indian no wage-slave property to part time Master.

White Indian not submissive, domesticated slave-Poodle.

White Indian play all day for for make comfortable living.

[heller]

You are a slave, since you claim you don't own your body. Why should anyone then not assault you? It's not your body after all.

The definition of a slave is one who does not own himself.

[White Indian]

The definition of a slave is somebody who is owned, legal property.

You're a slave, human property (even if only to a part-time Master.)

Not me. I'm not property. I'm not owned.

[heller]

Nope, I have self ownership. Trading my labor is not trading ownership of my body. You on the other hand, admitted to not owning yourself. Therefore you are a slave. In fact you are worse than a slave. Anyone can do anything to you.

[mad libertarian guy]

Says the guy who advocates a society where the average age at death was somewhere in the 40s or 50s.

Seriously.

SHUT THE FUCK UP

No one here is interested in your "Indians fucking RULE!!" routine.

[White Indian]

!Kung bushmen in marginally survivable Kalahari desert: 69 year life expectancy.

Present Industrial Civilization average: 67.2 years.

I thought we had been through this Hobbesean "nasty, brutish, and short" bullshit before.

Of course, if you want to cherrypick the life-expectancy of those near the rich, resource-grasping center of empire (arrogantly called the "first world") then yeah, go ahead, court bootlicker of Pharaoh, crow how great your pyramidal schemes are. But we all know the advantages are for only a few elite. The rest take it up the ass.

Do you provide propertarian lube when you do that to somebody you think is a lesser human than you?

[White Indian]

I love living in the fucking desert! Mmmm my sandy asshole feels so good! Love me long time Captain John Smith!

[Fluffy]

That life expectancy figure you're promoting is a lie.

It deliberately omits the 43% of the bush population that dies before the age of 15.

[White Indian]

It's not a lie, but if you want to desperately wish it is a lie then fine, Fluffy - that's about par for you.

The only way "civilization" can win the life expectancy issue is to cherry pick ages from only those close to the center of empire, and only recently with the temporary boom of oil-fueled industrial agriculture.

Which is the same tactic Bernanke uses to show how his fiat money is so great.

Generally speaking, agriculture, via archeological studies, has cut life expectancy in half.

And introduced horrible Diseases of Civilization.

[White Indian]

One item that skews the life expectancy numbers is abortion.

Infanticide has been common from paleolithic up through civilized Europe's medieval times.

In the US, 4 of 10 pregnancies are terminated. To be fair in statistics, those "deaths before 15" should be included in how statistics are compared between !Kung and civilization.

[tarran]

One of the things that really gets my goat about these primitivists is the horribly rotten deal that women get; death in childbirth was one of the biggest killers of adult women.

When my daughter reaches the end of her life, I want it to be after a long and happy life surrounded by her loving, full grown children. I don't want her to die at 17 because she hemorraged and the shit some shaman stuffed in her to stop the bleeding gave her an infection.

The stupider primitivists don't understand this and are to be pitied for their foolishness.

The smarter primitivists do understand this but just don't care. They are evil.

[SIV]

I'm stuck in Texas for the foreseeable future (next few weeks or more). Every fucking stoplight has a camera mounted on it, a pack of Marlboros cost at least 6 bucks,and if I want to stand on the beach and throw a line in the ocean I need over $50 in licenses to do it more than once. The former Texas GOP governor is not responsible for any of this. Perry is.

[sevo]

So can we presume you're not a Perry fan?
Me too.

[Slow Bake]

..... and we thank you for subsidizing the fact we have no income tax. Yes the cigarette thing is BS. However, everything voluntary (fishing) including licensing and certifications for technical jobs are expensive (and yes going into a licensed or certified job is voluntary). Those fees (and a higher sales tax[not on food]) and what we Texans consider high property taxes (owning a home is voluntary) keep the evil income tax away.

[Fluffy]

The state possesses no legitimate moral authority to license or certify occupations.

How you think that is somehow better than an income tax boggles my mind. Because it is itself an income tax, but it worsens that by also being a prior restraint, as well as a violation of the principle of free association.

[White Indian]

The state possesses no legitimate moral authority to license or certify occupations.

The state possesses no legitimate moral authority to license or title Mother Earth's surface as privation property.

[Mr. FIFY]

"Mother Earth"

What a load of shit.

[White Indian]

"Mother Earth" What a load of shit.

That truly is an honest sentiment regarding our Mother from your culture.

Premise Nineteen: The culture's problem lies above all in the belief that controlling and abusing the natural world is justifiable. ~Derrick Jensen, Endgame http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm

[Fluffy]

Of course controlling the natural world is justifiable.

What you have yet to justify is why I should care.

The closest you come is claiming that agriculture isn't sustainable, and that doesn't really do it.

It doesn't matter to me even a little if agriculture isn't sustainable 500 years from now. Why would it?

You still haven't told me why I should care which one of these options comes true:

1. 5 billion people die so we can return to a population level that can be supported by hunting and gathering

2. 5 billion people die because agriculture collapses.

Seriously - tell us why we should prefer #1 over #2. Especially because #2 won't actually happen. You're asking us to choose #1 based on the idea that maybe, at some indeterminate point in the future, #2 might/i> happen.

If I want to control and "abuse" the natural world, why shouldn't I? I don't even need to justify it because you've given me absolutely nothing to argue against that requires any justification.

"You shouldn't control and 'abuse' the natural world, because..." Because why?

[White Indian]

I don't prefer #1 over #2, and have never said that. Only you and Fibertarians have made up such bullshit, as a way to dismiss me. Seriously, tell me why you make up crap like that.

If civilization collapses into a human dieoff, it won't be because of anything I did or wanted. It will be a consequence of stupidity, just like economic collapse is a consequence of stupidity.

Or are you telling me that economic collapse is the fault of those warning against it?

I suppose Obama would love to think like you do that way.

_______

"You shouldn't control and 'abuse' the natural world, because..." Because why?

Can't you observe the consequences? If not, then you'll never understand if I explain them to you.

[capitol l]

If not, then you'll never understand if I explain them to you.

*cough* cop-out *cough*

---------------------------

What do you wish to happen, WI? How would you like the world to be? If you could have your way, what would it be, and how would we get there from here?

...specifically...

[White Indian]

As evolution (or Mother Earth) would have it: increasing diversity of life, increasing aliveness, and man as a gardener of more aliveness and beauty.

Did you know that the oak savannahs in the eastern NA and the Amazon rainforest are largely human artifacts of deliberate and skillful gardening?

(Research showing that has really pissed off some of anti-human "pristine nature without man" enviro-types who see man, instead of the City-STATE as a destroying cancer upon the earth. Thus, this article refers to it as mere conjecture. I think the evidence is pretty good, but we're still early in the process of discovery.)

the Amazon rain forest may be largely a human artifact
http://www.theatlantic.com/mag.....1491/2445/

How does using human skill and ingenuity to garden the earth into more aliveness and biological diversity sound to you?

[capitol l]

You're being evasive.

[Fluffy]

That's not my question, asshole.

There are currently more than 6 billion human beings on the planet surviving on the basis of agriculture.

Even if your argument was right (and it's not; it's idiotic and childish, but I want to explore this aspect of it with you) that ship has sailed.

If you want human beings to revert to hunting and gathering societies for survival, there are about 5.9 billion too many people to do that.

For your argument to be normative, you have to tell us what you want done with those 5.9 billion extra people.

If your argument is not normative, you're wasting my fucking time.

If your argument is normative but you refuse to answer what you want done with those extra 5.9 billion people, you're a fucking coward and douche.

[White Indian]

You just keep committing societal suicide if you want with fiat money and agriculture. After a brief boom, it always collapses.

Thus, you're the one responsible for the deaths of the collapse of your system.

It always collapses. Really. For example after example:

THE COLLAPSE OF COMPLEX SOCIETIES, by Joseph A. Tainter

[BigT]

From WI' link:
" To keep the habitat clear of unwanted trees and undergrowth, they regularly set huge areas on fire."

This is true. These stupid goons also burnt the entire Midwest of the US - the greatest ecological rape in human history - and morons like WI are proud of themselves. Ignorant savages.

[White Indian]

If you can't tell the difference between the results, you're the ignorant city-slicker.

The Amazon rainforest is largely a human artifact using swidden horticulture (often called slash and burn.)

Now it's being cut down on a massive, and you can't tell the difference, and try to equivocate swidden horticulture to annihilation of the forest.

Who's the "moron?" LOL

[Tulpa]

I know I'm going to regret this, but could you explain how occupational licensing is an income tax? I know you don't like either one, but I don't see how they're identical.

[capitol l]

I'd call it a pre-income tax, myself. Something even worse.

[tarran]

One could argue that an occupational license is a tax on income derived from a specific sort of labor, while income taxes are a tax on income derived from all sorts of labor.

Personally, I don't buy it; the barber licensing fee does not vary with the amount of barbering one does.

[SIV]

Texas used to have low tobacco taxes, no red light cameras, and it was free to fish in saltwater. Rick Perry is a serial tax and fee raiser.

[jimmy hat]

ive heard the red light cameras were going down for some kind of legal reason(not being able to face your accuser maybe)

[SIV]

It's going to take longer to remove them all than those night time sped limit signs. Maybe Perry can get a new tax to pay for it.

[Henry David Thoreau]

Darwin, the naturalist, says of the inhabitants of Tierra del Fuego, that while his own party, who were well clothed and sitting close to a fire, were far from too warm, these naked savages, who were farther off, were observed, to his great surprise, "to be streaming with perspiration at undergoing such a roasting." So, we are told, the New Hollander goes naked with impunity, while the European shivers in his clothes. Is it impossible to combine the hardiness of these savages with the intellectualness of the civilized man? ~Walden

Intellectualness? Sorry, but domesticated Poodle brains are smaller than their wild and free ancestors.

Brains and brawn go together, or as Timothy Leary once quipped: "Bright-Eyed and Bushy-Tailed."

[heller]

Too bad you haven't learned to use yours yet. We'll wait.

[heller]

Also, The Jam has a message we can all rock to.

This is the modern world that I've learnt about
This is the modern world, we don't need no one
To tell us what's right or wrong -
Say what you like 'cause I don't care
I know where I am and going to
It's somewhere I won't preview
Don't have to explain myself to you
I don't give two fucks about your review

[sloopyinca]

They have more than one

Some people might say my life is in a rut,
But I'm quite happy with what I got
People might say that I should strive for more,
But I'm so happy I can't see the point.

Somethings happening here today
A show of strength with your boy's brigade and,
I'm so happy and you're so kind
You want more moneyof course I don't mind
To buy nuclear textbooks for atomic crimes

And the public gets what the public wants
But I want nothing this society's got -
I'm going underground, (going underground)
Well the brass bands play and feet start to pound
Going underground, (going underground)
Well let the boys all sing and the boys all shout for tomorrow

Some people might get some pleasure out of hate
Me, I've enough already on my plate
People might need some tension to relax
Mem, I'm too busy dodging between the flak

What you see is what you get
You've made your bed, you better lie in it
You choose your leaders and place your trust
As their lies wash you down and their promises rust
You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns

And the public wants what the public gets
But I don't get what this society wants
I'm going underground, (going underground)
Well the brass bands play and feet start to pound
Going underground, (going underground)
Well let the boys all sing and the boys all shout for tomorrow

We talk and talk until my head explodes
I turn on the news and my body froze
The braying sheep on my TV screen
Make this boy shout, make this boy scream!

Going underground, I'm going underground

[Misanthropy]

Pasting pop lyrics into a forum never gets old. Sure beats thinking!

[sloopyinca]

Ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, I'm preempting heller shifting to The Pixies and littering the threads with their songs once more?

And if you think calling me a misanthrope is an insult...think again.

[heller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf20Effo6ds

[sloopyinca]

You sadistic fuck.

[heller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIkWJZf33UY

[heller]

It's called "Mod" you ignorant fuck.

[Pusillanonymous]

Neither does meta-commentary! Sure beats commenting with a handle when nobody will pay attention to you!

[Fluffy]

Yup, you're right.

If you're too fucking stupid and incompetent to make yourself clothes, you will over time become inured to mildly cold temperatures.

Being proud of it is like being proud of being too stupid to wipe your own ass, but being tough enough to stand the constant ass-shit-smell. Wow! What an achievement!

[White Indian]

If one is inured to mildly cold temperatures, then how would clothes be a need? Wouldn't it be fucking stupid and incompetent to make yourself clothes for which you have no need?

[Fluffy]

Because eventually it will get colder.

Or you might have occasion to travel to somewhere that's colder.

Unless you're a Stone Age piece of shit aborigine from an inferior culture, in which case you'll sit there in Olduvai Gorge and think how you can't go anywhere because it's too far to walk and it will be too cold when you get there and your fucking canoe will sink and you'll have nothing to eat and it's too much trouble and you're better off just staying where you are and jamming a fucking bone through your nose.

The only reason we're even having this discussion is because, for the sake of politeness, we stopped mentioning in everyday conversation how fucking inferior aboriginal cultures are, and exactly how much living in one sucks. But because we stopped mentioning that, it left the field open for sentimental Arcadian dumbasses to come along and claim that these cultures were noble or in touch with da Earth or what you have you. It's of a piece with the assholes who walk around talking about how deafness "is a culture". No, it's a fucking handicap and you are diminished if you suffer from that handicap. And the aboriginal cultures were inferior, and that's why their practitioners were destroyed. A return to the conditions of life experienced in those cultures would be a diminishment of man and only a fucking retard would even consider it.

[White Indian]

How is The Original Affluent Society, in which 99% of your ancestors lived, somehow inferior?

? Their work week is short enough to make us drool in envy.
? They enjoy almost unbelievable egalitarianism.
? The religious gasp at their high levels of sexual freedom, experimentation, and enjoyment.
? They're damn happy people, laughing freely way more than we do.
? Outside a division of labor, women have total social equality with men.
? They rarely resort to violence or war.
? Strong social safety nets in most of their societies support the disabled, old, and in many cases, even the lazy.
? They usually live to be at least as old as we do.
? Their health is more robust than ours, and they're frequently immune to diseases ravaging their sedentary neighbors.
? Their social lives are rich, and they have the free time to indulge themselves.
? With a few exceptions, their lifestyle lets them live in harmony with the earth, relying mostly on renewable resources, and keeping their numbers at a sustainable level.
? Their senses appear many times sharper than their own, and many seem curiously immune to extremes of temperature.
? Their strength often seems unbelievable.
? They intelligently use their time to create more productive environments that needs little care.

Hunter Gatherers And The Golden Age Of Man
http://www.raw-food-health.net/HunterGatherers.html

P.S. Question for Fluffy: How is it that the human species is the only specie to have evolved so "inferior?" Are squirrels' lives nasty, brutish, and short? Dolphins? Crows? Elephants? Turtles?

[Fluffy]

http://www.latitude38.com/Lect.....17/hut.jpg

Looks great. Why don't you go?

[Fluffy]

And yeah, squirrels' lives pretty much suck.

Evolution works to maintain species, and allow those species to pass on their genetic code. If the code is passed on, evolution has worked.

It doesn't care one whit about the experience of any particular individual.

Thousands of sea turtles die within the first year of life for every sea turtle that survives.

Evolution will be happy because the genetic code rolls on. If you're one of those individual sea turtles that gets eaten within minutes of being hatched, it ain't so great, though.

[White Indian]

squirrels' lives pretty much suck

Sure. All natural life sucks on Planet Earth in your culture's fantasy. That premise is why you want to murder it all.

Premise Ten: The culture as a whole and most of its members are insane. The culture is driven by a death urge, an urge to destroy life. ~Derrick Jensen, Endgame http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm

[Fluffy]

squirrels' lives pretty much suck

Sure. All natural life sucks on Planet Earth in your culture's fantasy. That premise is why you want to murder it all.

It doesn't matter if squirrels are pretty or if nature is nice or if you want to glorify life or whatever.

The point of contention here is whether the life of a squirrel is pleasant from the perspective of an individual squirrel/i>.

Not its species as a whole. Not nature as a whole. Not life as a whole.

Individual squirrels live every day with the ever-present specters of hunger and predation. Individual squirrels get hit by cars and chased by cats and eaten by coyotes and freeze to death in the winter. If you're a baby squirrel and the raccoons get into your nest, is that a good day or a bad day?

You're the one with the insane premise - that as long as your species as a whole is "in balance with nature" or something similarly inane, you shouldn't mind if you individually die. And that's ludicrous.

[sloopyinca]

I'm going to end this glorification of the hunter-gatherers once and for all.

They were hunter-gatherers because their mental development had allowed them to progress only that far in the evolution of man. Every interaction with an agrarian civilization ultimately led to the assimilation (usually by choice) of the hunter-gatherers into the more advanced culture. this increased their likelihood for an increased infant survival rate, a longer life span and an opportunity to establish stability in their daily lives re: food and shelter.
Man is constantly evolving. One day, we will likely evolve into interstellar colonists, and those people will marvel at the primitive agrarian culture in sow living museum, as their foods are replicated or they are able to move by teleportation. Hell, some of those future men will probably yearn for the simpler times, and will call out for a regression to simple agrarian life.

And those men will be ridiculed for their regressive mindset, and will be pitied for their willful ignorance in the face of inevitable evolution.

[White Indian]

Murdering the planet with extinction rates rivaling an asteroid hitting the earth isn't "progress."

Diseases of Civilization aren't "progress."

Working longer, harder hours away from your family isn't "progress."

Bosses and government and hierarchy aren't "progress."

[anon]

Just responding because someone has to refute this fucking abomination of logic:

*Even if their work week is shorter, they have NOTHING TO DO after they're done working except wait for their next meal. Not to mention that every hour awake they're searching for food, clothing, or goods to trade for food and clothing.
*The United States is the most generous nation. In the entire world. It's frequently demonstrated how wealthier nations donate to charities more than poorer nations. Tell me what's better; helping 5 people or helping 5 million people? Shut up dipshit.
* You want kinky sex? Hire a fucking prostitute. Moron.
* Hard to laugh more when you're starving to death.
* Hard to fight anyone while you're dying from malnutrition and disease.
* False.
* Yeah. Just like the American Indians were "frequently immune" to diseases. OH WAIT...
* Placing your subjective value on a social system? Really? I didn't even think you were this fucking dumb.
* We're all living in harmony with earth right now. Your point is retarded.
* I can get a strong right arm by jacking off. Who the fuck cares how strong you are? Why is that a value?
* Straight up bullshit. Aboriginal tribes produce absolutely nothing of value to society; it's why they're mostly disregarded as mooches, leeches, and all around a drag on society.

I hate to tell you, but now is the golden age of man. Never in history have we as a species been more advanced, more productive, and generally more peaceful. Sure, we still have wars/etc, and our political systems are defunct at the moment. But we will progress. The success of capitalism is inevitable; it's the best system known to man. Any system that's better will merely build on the successes that capitalism has already procured.

[White Indian]

City-Statist people produce absolutely nothing of value to the community of life on Mother Earth; it's why they're quite naturally collapsing into a dieoff. The consequences of Mother Nature's laws are inevitable; living within her laws as evolutionarily-stable The Original Affluent Society did is the best system known to man.

[anon]

Really? Give me your computer then. You don't value it, do you? Also: Give me the house you're living in. Obviously it's of no value to you.

Come on White Trash, it's time to nut up or shut up.

[White Indian]

Perhaps this will call your troubled soul, regarding the common question of whether propagating views which question technology through technological means --radio, television, the Internet--involved some type of contradiction:

An Open Letter on Technology and Mediation
http://www.primitivism.com/open-letter.htm

[anon]

Ah, an "appeal to authority" to promote your jumbled logical bullshit.

I should expect no less from you White Trash; Rationalize the propagation of your bullshit with an appeal to authority is pretty low though. You know all you're doing is proving the superiority of economics over your bullshit right?

[White Indian]

How is it that you can cite articles without it being an "appeal to authority" - but I can't? Come on, reason man.

Apparently, the tight logic within the thoughtful article I cited didn't suit you too well. Oh dear.

Need a handkerchief?

[mad libertarian guy]

Wait a minute. . .

I'm supposed to put intellectual stock in sources gathered from raw-health-food.net

SHUT THE FUCK UP

[White Indian]

It's a nice summary of the scholarly data, with lots of scholarly references. Got a problem with that, or are you mad?

[Civilization]

No antibiotics for you!!!

Die like your precious ancestors.

[White Indian]

Diseases of Civilization for you!

[sloopyinca]

It's of a piece with the assholes who walk around talking about how deafness "is a culture". No, it's a fucking handicap and you are diminished if you suffer from that handicap.

But we did determine that really hot deaf girl was the way to go over really hot blind girl last weekend, right?

[A fan]

The dumb girl! No whiny talking!!

[anon]

Clothes do more than protect you from being cold. They have all sorts of advantages, like protecting from injury and disease. Oh, and diseases caused by injuries.

But, you're still too fucking stupid to even begin to comprehend simple concepts that we've developed certain traits and habits as a society for a valid reason.

[White Indian]

What simple concepts do you comprehend as the reason for a society's certain traits and habits for developing death chemicals that:

(1) impair the anthropometric development of the fetus, reducing the birth weight, length, and head circumference (1);

(2) make your children's IQs lower

and (3) decrease fertility?

Can you clear this up for me? Thanks.

______________

(1) Prenatal Exposure to Organochlorine Compounds and Birth Size
American Academy of Pediatrics
http://pediatrics.aappublicati.....1.abstract

(2) Prenatal Exposure to Organophosphates, Paraoxonase, and Cognitive Development in Childhood
http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/art.....hp.1003183

(3) Male Pesticide Exposure and Pregnancy Outcome Am. J. Epidemiol. (1997) 146 (12): 1025-1036.

[anon]

Rather than cite your propaganda, I refer you to this study of infant death rates in Canada: Aboriginals vs. non-aboriginals. You see, clearly your premise is absolutely, scientifically proven wrong. Take your bullshit and go hunt and gather some fucking intelligence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20524380

[White Indian]

Civilized people invade and occupy Turtle Island and treat the First Families like shit. Yeah, they've got it pretty tough now. That's for proving my points, anon.

[anon]

So ... respond to my actual facts by switching the subject to some made up bullshit. Gotcha. Nice one White Trash. Ready to give me all your property that you don't care for yet?

[White Indian]

I didn't switch the subject. You cited a study about how the First Familes are being shafted health-wise by the invasive and occupational City-State, thus proving my point. Again, thanks.

[anon]

Your aboriginal tribes are the ones that don't believe in "propertarian" health care or some bullshit. The point is they're shafting themselves here... but I suppose you're pretty dumb and I have to spell out every detail for you. Man, education *IS* a hard business to be in. I need to get paid for this shit.

[White Indian]

they're shafting themselves

Cite? That certainly is not the point of the journal article from the "Centre for Research on Inner City Health" of which you provided a short abstract.

Inner City? You mean aboriginals are living in cities now? Who'd a thunk it?

[anon]

Wow. Just wow. You're a complete and utter waste of human life, and I hope you die. I'm done with you.

[White Indian]

I hope you die

That is truly an honest sentiment from your culture.

Premise Ten: The culture as a whole and most of its members are insane. The culture is driven by a death urge, an urge to destroy life. ~Derrick Jensen, Endgame http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm

[PantsFan]

Canadian author and activist Naomi Klein was among dozens of people, including a Canadian aboriginal protester, arrested on Friday outside the White House at a demonstration against a contentious Alberta-to-Texas oil pipeline.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/s.....otest.html

[dunphy]

is posthumous pardoning kind of like the shit that mormons do where they baptize the dead?

[gucci shirts]

http://www.fashionbiz2u.com/ar.....0_221.html

[Joe M]

Fuck off slav?I mean, spammer.

[Mensan]

Off Topic:

Florida is facing a class-action lawsuit from drivers who have been ticketed for attempting to warn other motorists of hidden speed traps ... despite the fact that there is no law against using one's headlights to communicate with other drivers.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Flashing headlights is theft from the public coffers.

[Tulpa]

I'd imagine obstruction of justice / interference with police investigation statutes cover it.

[Sok Noo]

Sounds like a prety good plan to me dude.
http://www.anonymity.ru.tc

[MNG]

Ah, yet another stop in Assumption Junction.

Remember all those conversations about Fast and the Furious here where many regular commenters here claimed that the ATF must, must, MUST I SAY have had only a political gun control motive behind Fast and Furious? People like John (the Mayor of Assumption Junction [see Sherrod, Shirley; Muslim Oslo Bombers; the exception-less ESA with exceptions; etc]) claimed that there could not possibly be any legit law enforcment motive behind and it attacked me for suggesting there likely was:

John|8.16.11 @ 9:55AM|#
Gunwalker is worse because it was an attempt to not just corrupt Mexico but US politics as well. There is no way to explain how the program would have worked even if it had not failed.

Hell, even Fluffy fell for this line of 'thinking':

Fluffy|8.16.11 @ 10:08AM|#
Dude, it was clearly motivated by a political goal. It requires much crazier conspiracy thinking to believe it wasn't motivated by a political goal than it requires to believe that it wasn't.

They made no attempt to track the guns in Mexico, so the whole "We were gathering intel on smuggling" line is a childishly obvious cover.

Alas.

In the WaPo today we find that the White House knew about operations of this nature, but didn't seem to know the details:

White House e-mails refer to gun-trafficking operation
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....ml?hpid=z5

The article mentions that Fast and the Furious should have been more well known because it has actually led to indictments (surprise!!!), one of which is mentioned and to which I link to below:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/az.....ctment.pdf

Now, none of this exonerates this program, which I called stupid and immoral from the beginning. But it's yet another reason why trips to Assumption Junction based on half the story and misinformation and conjecture lead one to stupid, stupid places.

[Fist of Etiquette]

You're offering this as proof there was no ideological motive fueling the operation?

[MNG]

The 'reasoning' (hey, it's 5 somewhere) John et. al were using was "there is no proof of any law enforcement purpose, one can't even imagine one, therefore since those motivations couldn't have been the ones driving the program it must have been political ones, and the political ones must have been gun control."

It's terrible reasoning of course, but worse now we can see its demonstrably based on a wrong premise: there indeed were legit law enforcment uses that may have been the motive.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Fair enough. That reasoning (which I hadn't heard) may not be solid, but I am still not discounting that there was a political motive behind the ill-considered operation. Sinister motivations for law enforcement decisions happen often, and since I don't trust any bureaucracy in the first place, I think it's fairly likely some were hoping this would help make the case for increased gun control measures.

[MNG]

Sure, it's POSSIBLE this motivation underlies the program, but all one has to argue this point is conjecture. What fluffy and others offered was "I can't imagine what legit law enforcment goal could have been furthered so it MUST have been political." But it was actually pretty easy to imagine a legit goal, the indictment provides support for this idea. After all it is hardly a radical jump to suppose they engaged in the program to lead to indictments of people in gun networks when, well, this is what actually happened.

Now, did they also have some secret motive? We can suppose so, but only with the most circumstancial and conjectural arguments (note fluffy's new argument below which amounts to "well if it wasn't political why did they invite the press to cover it!").

[BakedPenguin]

...it was actually pretty easy to imagine a legit goal...

Sure, if you accept the War on Drugs.

[Fluffy]

Saying that the program had a political motivation is not the same as saying that the highest levels of the White House came up with the idea or authorized it.

The agency's intention was to have the press "discover" how many US guns were being sent to Mexico.

The fact that they included reporters from the Washington Post in this dog and pony show pretty much conclusively proves that this wasn't a secret intelligence operation.

The point of letting the guns go to Mexico was to be able to sensationalize the fact that guns were going to Mexico.

Nothing you've posted today contradicts that even a tiny little bit.

You're going to have to do way, way better than this.

Look! Here's a link proving that there are men on Mars!

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/.....index.html

Oh wait the article doesn't say that. But what the hell, I'm using MNG proof standards now, so I guess I'm good.

[MNG]

Er, seems you are inheriting John's inability to walk back when you are demonstrably flat wrong.

You said:

"They made no attempt to track the guns in Mexico, so the whole "We were gathering intel on smuggling" line is a childishly obvious cover."

But as the indictment shows, not only did they track the weapons they did so well enough to bring indictments from it. You, John et.'s entire basis for your wacky conspiracy theory was "but there was no fathomable law enforcement motive, therefore it must have been political."

But what a nutty assumption, but worse one that is now demonstrably wrong.

[Fluffy]

That indictment details people arrested for stuff they did in Arizona.

The bottom line is that the ATF invited Washington Post reporters to report on the huge number of guns being smuggled into Mexico, when they were allowing those guns to be smuggled into Mexico.

Nothing else but a desire to sensationalize the gun smuggling problem in the press can ever possibly explain that, dude. Nothing.

And why would the ATF seek to sensationalize the problem of gun smuggling in the press?

There is no evidence you can offer that can counterbalance that. None. Unless it turns out that the Post reporters hallucinated being asked to come and report on the "problem". So come back when you have links to video of those reporters taking shrooms while holding up their driver's licenses while their grandmas watch, and then we'll talk. Until then we won't.

[MNG]

You're moving the goalposts there fluffster.

In the quote from you above you argue that a legitimate law enforcement intel goal was "obviously cover." And yet this "obvious cover" led to indictments of several people. If you are not aware law enforcement agencies work toward the goal of...indicting...people breaking the laws...they are tasked with policing...

So even though the ATF achieved this goal via the program as demonstrated by the indictment it couldn't have been the motive for the program, instead we should leap to the conclusion that the nefarious ATF was simply hoping to create dead people to gin up support for gun control. And now your argument is we should jump to this conclusion because the agency invited press coverage of the operation (because no law enforcment agency has ever invited press coverage of their programs, so therefore the press coverage itself must be the ONLY motivation for it).

Hoooo-kay.

[Fluffy]

No.

They invited press coverage of the horrible problem of American guns in Mexico.

Guns they deliberately had smuggled into Mexico.

They didn't invite press coverage of their brave and brilliant anti-gun operation.

They invited press coverage of how "horrific" the flow of American guns into Mexico had become.

After they put those guns there.

No reasonable person can reach any other conclusion than that the ATF deliberately promoted the smuggling of guns into Mexico so they could then plant stories about this gun "problem" in the press and then testify to Congress about it.

If this was a pharmaceutical company we were talking about, and they had invited the press to cover a story about poison counterfeit medicines circulating in Mexico, after they themselves had promoted the transport of counterfeit medicines into Mexico, there is absolutely no way you would be here right now pulling my fucking cock telling me about how legitimate the operation was. None. At all. You would very quickly and without prompting connect the dots between the activity being discussed and the guilty party's direct interest.

[MNG]

They didn't "put those guns there" they did not intervene to stop them. Like I've long said, it's a morally dubious enterprise, but law enforcement agencies will often allow illegal purchases they know of and could stop in order to be able to make what they think are bigger arrests later.

So they allowed the purchases to be made, they later brought charges against many purchasers, and, yes, they invited the press to note the problem they were taking action to combat. That in itself is hardly problematic.

You just want to change the subject to press coverage because you were demonstrably wrong about the program having a legit law enforcement purpose.

[Tulpa]

not only did they track the weapons they did so well enough to bring indictments from it.

Yeah, prosecutors really have to have a formidable amount of evidence to get an INDICTMENT.

[Tulpa]

So the proof of the pure motives behind F&F is an article from the WaPo and a PDF from the DOJ itself. You're quite the critical thinker, MNG.

[MNG]

Again, the 'argument' if you can call it that, from fluffster and John and others is that it was literally incredible to believe that a law enforcement motive could lie behind this program, therefore it had to be more than an incompetent morally dubious effort, it just HAD to be motivated by political gun control motives. It was like a process of elimination argument that rested on only one elimination, and that elimination is now demonstrably wrong: the indictment lays out quite plausibly how the program would lead to legitimate law enforcement goals.

This line of argument had it all, motivated by a dislike for and therefore unwillingness to be fair to the ATF and thus assume only the worst motive; resting on terrible logic (again, the process of elimination argument with a single elimination); and containing a critical premise in that argument that is easily shown to be wrong.

It's classic internet ideologue thinking.

[Fluffy]

The indictment doesn't demonstrate what you keep claiming it demonstrates.

It shows that the ATF indicted people for illegal firearms activities in Arizona.

That's all it shows, really.

Basically your argument is, "Well, the ATF arrested some people while they were running this operation, so the operation must have been legit."

Which is a lot like arguing that the guys who beat Rodney King must have been innocent because the LAPD arrested some rapists and burglars the night of the beating, so obviously the LAPD was really just trying to do its best that day.

[MNG]

"It shows that the ATF indicted people for illegal firearms activities in Arizona."

I guess you didn't read it. One of the charges alleged is conspiring to smuggle goods out of the US (line 11) and it goes into detail about the network of guns from the US to Mexican drug gangs.

Your King analogy is pathetic. The stated purpose of Fast and Furious was to combat the buying of guns in the US being taken to drug networks in Mexico and that is EXACTLY what they indicted this bunch of people for. Your King analogy is apposite involving different people doing totally different things.

You're grasping worse than a drunk freshman at a sorority party.

[Fatty Bolger]

That indictment is from January 11, 2011. Brian Terry was dead almost a month, and the gunwalker connection had already been outed on the CleanUpATF website. In other words, the shit was about to hit the fan.

As noted at Free Republic back on February 8, the timing of all of this was mighty suspicious:

Avila isn't even charged in the most serious counts of the indictment. Why? Most striking is that on January 25th, 2011, while the ATF was serving the "Avila Indictment" and preparing for the press conference to follow ? Avila wasn't even arrested in the big roundup. Why? Well, a simple Pacer search (the Federal Courts electronic document system / available to anyone via the internet) reveals that Jaime Avila Jr. was already in jail. The court records clearly show how Avila was arrested during the early morning (just after midnight) of Dec. 16th, 2010, by Phoenix ATF agents for lying on 4473's. So why on Dec 15th, 2010 did ATF feel the need to rush out and arrest Avila, on a hurried criminal complaint (as opposed to the proper method of indictment) after knowing of his trafficking activities, watching him and his coconspirators, listening to their phones, and investigating them for nearly the past 14 months? What happened on Dec. 15th, 2010?
...
The last [allegation] listed is for August 19th, 2010. What, if anything has been done between then and the January 25th round-up? Why wait so long to indict? In the indictment's money laundering section, albeit in no way all inclusive, it list $104,251.00 as being spent by conspirators at the one FFL on record for cooperating with the investigation. Nowhere in the indictment nor the press releases is there mentioned any seizure of that money? Furthermore, contained in the 81 overt acts there is detailed the many firearms purchases which, when read and added together, total 717 firearms. The same 81 acts only describe the recovery of 123 firearms. (Note, I may have missed one here or there for both sales and/or recoveries. My numbers are quick tallies; feel free to check my math.) Of special note is the USAO press release (again - [link removed due to Reason limit] - "Press Room" under "2011 Archives.", titled "Fast & Furious ? Map of Recoveries") It states the Recovery Totals as U.S. ? 372, Mexico ? 195. (Totaling 567 / still shy of the 717 listed as purchased in the indictment.) It makes no mention of the circumstances surrounding these recoveries, but it does show?

"Rio Rico 2". What happened in Rio Rico where 2 firearms were recovered?

'Project Gunwalker' allegations bolstered by Project Gunrunner indictments

What, indeed, happened in Rio Rico in December which suddenly made the arrest of Avila and subsequent indictments so urgent? Well, it turns out the Avila guns WERE the guns used to kill Brian Terry near Rio Rico. Huh. How about that?

The serial numbers on the two assault rifles found at the scene matched two rifles ATF watched Jaime Avila buy in Phoenix nearly a year before. Officials won't answer whether the bullet that killed Terry came from one of those rifles. But the nightmare had come true: "walked" guns turned up at a federal agent's murder.

CBS News reports on ATF scandal?was Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry murdered by a gun being tracked by ATF?

So, MNG, what do you think? Is the sudden indictment for a bunch of straw purchases that had been going on for years, an indictment and arrest roundup which just coincidentally happened right after a border patrol agent was killed with one of the straw purchased guns, proof that this was the intended result all along? They set this whole thing up, just for this?

[Fatty Bolger]

That indictment is from January 11, 2011. Brian Terry was dead almost a month, and the gunwalker connection had already been outed on the CleanUpATF website. In other words, the shit was about to hit the fan.

As noted at Free Republic back on February 8, the timing of all of this was mighty suspicious:

Avila isn't even charged in the most serious counts of the indictment. Why? Most striking is that on January 25th, 2011, while the ATF was serving the "Avila Indictment" and preparing for the press conference to follow ? Avila wasn't even arrested in the big roundup. Why? Well, a simple Pacer search (the Federal Courts electronic document system / available to anyone via the internet) reveals that Jaime Avila Jr. was already in jail. The court records clearly show how Avila was arrested during the early morning (just after midnight) of Dec. 16th, 2010, by Phoenix ATF agents for lying on 4473's. So why on Dec 15th, 2010 did ATF feel the need to rush out and arrest Avila, on a hurried criminal complaint (as opposed to the proper method of indictment) after knowing of his trafficking activities, watching him and his coconspirators, listening to their phones, and investigating them for nearly the past 14 months? What happened on Dec. 15th, 2010?
...
The last [allegation] listed is for August 19th, 2010. What, if anything has been done between then and the January 25th round-up? Why wait so long to indict?
...
It makes no mention of the circumstances surrounding these [gun] recoveries, but it does show?

"Rio Rico 2". What happened in Rio Rico where 2 firearms were recovered?

'Project Gunwalker' allegations bolstered by Project Gunrunner indictments

What, indeed, happened in Rio Rico in December which suddenly made the arrest of Avila and subsequent indictments so urgent? Well, it turns out the Avila guns WERE the guns used to kill Brian Terry near Rio Rico. Huh. How about that?

The serial numbers on the two assault rifles found at the scene matched two rifles ATF watched Jaime Avila buy in Phoenix nearly a year before. Officials won't answer whether the bullet that killed Terry came from one of those rifles. But the nightmare had come true: "walked" guns turned up at a federal agent's murder.

CBS News reports on ATF scandal?was Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry murdered by a gun being tracked by ATF?

So, MNG, what do you think? Is the sudden indictment for a bunch of straw purchases that had been going on for years, an indictment and arrest roundup which just coincidentally happened right after a border patrol agent was killed with one of the straw purchased guns, proof that this was the intended result all along? They set this whole thing up, just for this?

[Fatty Bolger]

That indictment is from January 11, 2011. Brian Terry was dead almost a month, and the gunwalker connection had already been outed on the CleanUpATF website. In other words, the shit was about to hit the fan.

As noted at Free Republic back on February 8, the timing of all of this was mighty suspicious:

The last one listed is for August 19th, 2010. What, if anything has been done between then and the January 25th round-up? Why wait so long to indict?
...
Of special note is the USAO press release (again - http://www.justice.gov/usao/az/ - "Press Room" under "2011 Archives.", titled "Fast & Furious ? Map of Recoveries") It states the Recovery Totals as U.S. ? 372, Mexico ? 195. (Totaling 567 / still shy of the 717 listed as purchased in the indictment.) It makes no mention of the circumstances surrounding these recoveries, but it does show?

"Rio Rico 2". What happened in Rio Rico where 2 firearms were recovered?

'Project Gunwalker' allegations bolstered by Project Gunrunner indictments

(more to follow, the spam filter is giving me grief)

[Fatty Bolger]

So what did happen in Rio Rico on December 15th? As it turns out, the two Avila guns WERE the ones that were used to kill Brian Terry. What a coincidence. As reported by CBS later that month:

The serial numbers on the two assault rifles found at the scene matched two rifles ATF watched Jaime Avila buy in Phoenix nearly a year before. Officials won't answer whether the bullet that killed Terry came from one of those rifles. But the nightmare had come true: "walked" guns turned up at a federal agent's murder.

CBS News reports on ATF scandal?was Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry murdered by a gun being tracked by ATF?

So, MNG, any comment? Was it was just coincidence that the indictments and arrests finally happened right after a Border Patrol officer was killed with one of the guns? Was this whole operation set up just so they could nab some straw purchasers, someday, after the guns went who knows where?

[Fatty Bolger]

So what did happen in Rio Rico on December 15th? As it turns out, the two Avila guns WERE the ones that were used to kill Brian Terry. What a coincidence. As reported by CBS later that month:

The serial numbers on the two assault rifles found at the scene matched two rifles ATF watched Jaime Avila buy in Phoenix nearly a year before. Officials won't answer whether the bullet that killed Terry came from one of those rifles. But the nightmare had come true: "walked" guns turned up at a federal agent's murder.

Gunrunning scandal uncovered at the ATF

So, MNG, any comment? Was it was just coincidence that the indictments and arrests finally happened right after a Border Patrol officer was killed with one of the guns? Was this whole operation set up just so they could nab some straw purchasers, someday, after the guns went who knows where?

[MNG]

Again, this is the worst type of internet ideologue 'argument by assumption/speculation.' We are supposed to assume something because a great deal of time occurred between the actions described in the indictment and the indictment? WTF? What a terrible argument. Lawyers rarely do anything speedily is a much more plausible answer. Hell, how long did it take for them to move on Roger Clemens and they had their evidence sitting there on tape!

[Fatty Bolger]

Did you bother reading the links? Doesn't sound like it.

Brian Terry was killed late night on 12/14. Two guns recovered had Fast & Furious serial numbers. Late the next night, Jaime Avila, the straw purchaser for those two guns, was found and arrested. On January 11th he & other strawmen purchasers were indicted, and a roundup occurred on the 25th. Avila, of course, was already in jail. A press release touting the "Avila indictment" was released. No mention was made of the guns being found at the Terry murder site, or the hundreds of missing guns, of course. Why the sudden urgency to arrest Avila? Why was he arrested before the other strawman purchasers were all rounded up at the same time? What made Avila so special?

So what was the ultimate plan? To arrest a bunch of straw purchasers that the ATF itself encouraged? That seems pretty unlikely, and could easily have been accomplished without deliberately letting the guns "walk." Was the plan to expose the wider network? That makes more sense, until you realize that they couldn't track the guns until after they had been used in another crime. Once they let those guns go - an idea normally considered unthinkable - it was inevitable that they would be used in crimes in Mexico. That was perfectly foreseeable. Which brings to mind R.C. Dean's iron law #7:

Foreseeable consequences are not unintended

Sure, it's possible that experienced law enforcement officers actually thought that letting guns walk into Mexico - encouraging them, in fact - was going to somehow lead to some major breakthrough. Possible - but is it likely? If not, then, what was the real intent?

[MNG]

Here's the best one from that past discussion:

John|8.16.11 @ 10:12AM|#
We know it was a conspiracy because there is no way the program could have ever worked. They sold guns and let them go to Mexico. They can't prosecute or keep track of the guns in Mexico. I can see no possible scenario where the program would have resulted in any successful prosecution.

To which I replied:

MNG|8.16.11 @ 10:21AM|#
"They can't prosecute or keep track of the guns in Mexico."

Sure they can do both. They can work with the Mexican police to capture and extradite networks that bought guns illegally in America. And of course they can track it, I mean, how do you know they ended up where they did?

Well, well, looks like they did indeed bring prosecutions from this. Whoda thought the Mayor of Assumption Junction would have been yet again so deomnstrably wrong?

[capitol l]

It's not enough that you spend countless hours and comments arguing with John; you now have to repost them with commentary?

"Mayor of Assupmtion Junction"...Really?

You can do better.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Yeah, now I can't get Conjunction Junction out of my head. Couple that with Unstoppable being shown unstoppably on TV all week, I am going to have nightmares about runaway and's and but's crashing into each other, and or's derailing on top of Joe Biden.

[capitol l]

I've been stuck at Concussion Junction since January. It's time to move on.

And no, I will not click your link as I don't want to spend the entire holiday weekend with that shit bouncing around my skull.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I don't consider myself especially astute and even I knew he wasn't going to start this season. I don't care how many gynecologists they send him to.

[capitol l]

My best hope over the summer was that Cindy would be back within the first 10 regular season games, but now I'm not so sure.

[MNG]

Hey, I love how the guy just keeps returning to his dubious right wing sources, takes them as true in guillible fashion, and then builds all kinds of RAGE filled posts based on assumptions from the misinformation. You can catch him and call him on this over and over yet he's busy with his next big effort for Truth and Justice. He's a textbook example of what is wrong with movement conservatism's thinking (or for that matter with movement leftism or libertarianism). Take either misinformation or half the story, mix with an unwillingness to be fair-minded about the target, stir in logically dubious assumptions, shake it up and get RAGE.

Stupid, wrong, misdirected rage...

[Tulpa]

Hey, I love how the guy just keeps returning to his dubious right wing sources, takes them as true in guillible fashion, and then builds all kinds of RAGE filled posts based on assumptions from the misinformation.

Enough about you, what about John?

[MNG]

If you can, rather than engage in similar conjecture and assumption, catch me on the same type of nonsense please do Tulpa, please do.

[sloopyinca]

God damn you, MiNGe. I've got that Saturday cartoon song in my head as well.

You bastard!

[capitol l]

The only person who won't read minge's screed, and get that song stuck in his head is probably going to be John.

So we're stuck with this shit and the guy who caused it is nowhere to be found.

[MNG]

I used to love those corny Saturday shorts, just be lucky I didn't bring up "I'm just a bill"

[JD]

Working with the Mexican police might have worked better if they actually informed the of the operation.

[Fluffy]

And of course they can track it, I mean, how do you know they ended up where they did?

The guns turned up at Mexican crime scenes and were used in Mexican murders.

"Stand around and wait for someone in Mexico to get shot with one of the guns" /= "Track guns inside Mexico".

[Lo rd Hum ungus]

I'm eating Cincinnati-style chili right now. Not that anyone cares.

Also I picked up an uber-rare colwave record at the post-office. It's a 1989 pressing of Asylum Party - Borderline. Pressed in France - the copy I bought was shipped from Israel. Ten-twenty years ago, this would be nearly impossible to find, but now I can buy the most obscure records on the planet, provided I'm willing to spend the money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjpsE76ZUk

[Lord Humungus]

*colwave = Coldwave = Cold Wave

[sloopyinca]

Not that anyone cares.

I always care when someone is smart enough to get into a five way and a pair of coneys.

Important question: Skyline or Gold Star?

[Lord Humungus]

skyline

[rsi]

OT:
Raise minimum wage, make lives and economy better

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/02/.....?hpt=hp_t2

[anon]

I really hope you're suggesting this in jest.

[Lord Humungus]

anyone willing to buy a Fiat?
http://jacksonville.com/busine.....le-dealers

they look "cute," but their previous entry into the U.S. market wasn't exactly a resounding success.

[anon]

As a mechanic, I would never ever never own a fiat for any reason other than to light it on fire and watch it burn for my satisfaction.

Of all car manufacturers, I believe Fiat may be even shittier than Hyundai was in the late 80's.

[rac]

Back in my Army days, I owned a Fiat in Germany. Took it to a mechanic who pointed out the rust under neath. I told him to take it off. He said, no, it's holding the car together. A couple motns later, the fron wheel fell off. OFF! Ball joint cracked like an eggshell. NO FIATS!

[BakedPenguin]

Wow. That little matchbox only gets 29 mpg? (Actually, probably worse, since it would likely see more city miles than highway).

[sloopyinca]

They're already all over SoCal and the Bay Area.

Is this some part of the stimulus exclusively for guys named Tony?

[PantsFan]

I think White Indian may be David Quamman

[Vegan Cheesesteak]

Trye this, CITY-STATISTS
http://huntgatherlove.com/content/start-here-post

[anon]

No thanks. I refer you to my previous posts refuting your ridiculous nonsense, and you have no response. Mostly because there can be no response other than "Fuck, you're right anon!"

Why don't you go do some "hunting and gathering" for the electricity that you're using to post your bullshit all over the internet? Or go hunt and gather yourself a computer that you're using to post on the internet? Or hunt and gather the ~20 servers between you and this server that you're posting on the internet?

Dumbest fucking idiot I've ever seen. I'd kill myself out of shame if I were White Trash.

[White Indian]

Go ahead, eat your Twinkies and Doritoes and CheezWhiz and die early and/or require extensive industrialized medicine to wheeze your through life, anon, especially as the collapse and possible dieoff of civilization approaches. How's that medicare gonna do then?

The rest of us want to be healthy. A rather advanced concept for you, I know.

[heller]

Get off the computer hypocrite!

Oh so you don't really believe anything you're saying.

[White Indian]

Reject all your mail, don't drive public roads, and forget everything you ever learned in a public school, hypocrite!

[heller]

Why? My parents and I payed for all of it and more. If I was a tax collector, then I would be a hypocrite. But I'm not.

But even if I was, saying "tu quoque!" does not excuse your hypocrisy.

So get off the computer hypocrite!

[White Indian]

Why? I payed for all of it and more. If there was an opportunity to live a forager lifestyle on Turtle Island, then I would be a hypocrite. But there's not. Because of you City-Statist types initiating aggression with your brutal invasion and occupation of Turtle Island. So I get along best I can. Deal with it.

[heller]

"Why? I payed for all of it and more."

Good job, you copied my sentence and it has nothing to do with your hypocrisy!

"If there was an opportunity to live a forager lifestyle on Turtle Island, then I would be a hypocrite."

So If you can't be on Turtle Island, you need to use a computer and clothes and a toilet?

Get off the computer hypocrite!

[heller]

You aren't even trying to practice as you preach. Therefore: hypocrite.

[mad libertarian guy]

Surely somewhere in Northern Saskatchewan there is a place where you can go and get EATEN BY A FUCKING GRIZZLY BEAR while you hunt and forage for reindeer shit to make a hut.

[White Indian #34]

Why should the aggressively invasive and occupational City-STATE get all the best land by privation enforcement, sheriffs, landlords, and other aggressors?

Officer, am I free to gambol across forest and plain living a Non-State sociopolitical typology lifestyle?

[heller]

Have you even tried? No you haven't you hypocritical fuck.

[White Indian]

How can I try it when your City-STATIST agents prevent it by use of force?

Officer, am I free to gambol across prairie and forest?

[Fluffy]

Because we're using it.

Since you now concede that property by use is legitimate, I can bootstrap that into every other property use we've got.

"How are you using that property?"

"I'm using it right now by preparing it for planting next year." "I'm using it by letting the lumber on it mature." "I'm using it to pile my delicious piles of deadly but beautiful and toxic waste."

[White Indian]

You're not using what you made, you're using what was invaded and occupied by aggression and genocide. And is occupied by continued aggression.

Even the smarter GeoLibertarians, not slurping on the control-freak propertarian Koch's golden dicks, understand that.

Georgism (also called Geoism) is an economic philosophy and ideology that holds that people own what they create, but that things found in nature, most importantly land, belongs equally to all.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarianism

Even William F. Buckley, a smart fellow, finally saw that a few people holding earth's Land was indeed a system of privation property, and supported Geoism.

Thomas Paine was also a "Geoist" before Henry George was even born. See his pamphlet "Agrarian Justice."

I'm not sure if the prescriptive policies of Geoism are realistic, but they have indeed identified the problem of privation property.

[White Indian]

Thanks for the good link, vegan. Weston A. Price Foundation is pretty cool, lots of people are catching on to the advantages of a Paleolithic diet.

And you're making the snarling City-Statists piss their panties. LOL

[heller]

Get off the computer moron! After all you don't need it so it isn't your property. And it's probably giving you cancer or something. Dumb fuck.

[White Indian]

It appears the microbiologist is really sore about being schooled by WI in biological evolution.

[heller]

LOL!

delusional moron.

[Mr. FIFY]

Okay, White Idiot... put up or shut up. Either get rid of every single material possession, or shut the fuck up about others owning things or property.

Seriously... fuck off.

[White Indian]

Mister FIFY, not all property is bad. But some is. I've posted this before, perhaps your comprehension level has increased over a few days, so I'll post it again, if it isn't too many words at one time for you, as follows:

The abstract notion of ownership serves as the single, greatest perpetuator of hierarchy. When one steps back and examines the notion of "owning" something, the abstraction becomes readily apparent. Ownership represents nothing more than a power-relationship?the ability to control. The tribal institution of "Ownership by use" on the other hand, suggests simply that one can only "own" those things that they put to immediate, direct and personal use to meet basic needs?and not more. A society crosses the memetic Rubicon when it accepts the abstraction that ownership can extend beyond the exclusive needs of one individual for survival. Abstract ownership begins when society accepts a claim of symbolic control of something without the requirement of immediate, direct and personal use. Hierarchy, at any level, requires this excess, abstract ownership?it represents the symbolic capital that forms the foundation of all stratification. In the simplest terms, in order to destroy the engine of hierarchy, we must destroy the mechanism of ownership.

~Jeff Vail
A Theory of Power
Chapter 9: Forward, to Rhizome
http://www.jeffvail.net/2005/0.....nline.html

[White Indian]

And Godesky cites attorney Jeff Vail here in another good essay on the history and theory behind the City-STATE's privation property:

The Right to Property
by Jason Godesky
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....-property/

[anon]

A society that believes they can only have what they're going to put to immediate use sounds awesome, White Trash. You should go try it! Better get started quick, you're going to have to hunt and grow dinner here pretty soon.

[anon]

And since a refrigerator is specifically for storing goods for use at a later time, you really should allow me to repossess yours. Thanks in advance. I'll even come pick it up for you.

[White Indian]

Worked for 2 million years with humans, and for hundreds of millions of years for every other specie on our home planet. Got a problem with that?

[Fluffy]

We can never go there in a time machine, but I guarantee you that if you walked up to a group of Homo Erectus who had just come back from a successful hunt, and gathered up all their tools and whatever meat they hadn't immediately eaten, and said, "Hey, guys, you aren't using this property right now, so I'm taking it. Because if I don't do that it will lead to hierarchy!" that those guys would have killed your fucking worthless ass dead.

Not even a chimpanzee will let you steal from it without a fight.

If I plant a field of corn, it's mine. If you come along later and say you dispute that because you hate hierarchy or what have you I will fucking kill you and laugh as you die. Because I will be absolutely, positively, 100% morally in the right.

[White Indian]

...gathered up all their tools ...If I plant a field of corn, it's mine.

Sure, that's the way the eastern woodlands Indians played. But you don't play that way. You are just backtracking to legitimate property concepts - property by use.

Your culture's way of privation property via big government land enTITLEment is completely different.

Read attorney Jeff Vail's citation in this the middle of this essay, to differentiate between legitimate property by use and the agricultural City-STATIST notion of abstract ownership, as follows:

The Right to Property
by Jason Godesky | 18 July 2005
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....-property/

[heller]

And then people moved on to something better. Are you going to cry?

[White Indian]

Would it make you feel better if I did?

[heller]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH, everyone is civilized and I want it to be my business but it isn't. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

No I don't feel better. I feel pretty annoyed when you cry.

[Gritsforbreakfast]

First, Jacob, thanks for the plug. 🙂

Doktor Kapitalism asked: "So, is this pro or anti Perry? It's been a long week and my sarcasm detector--among other things--is out of whack."

Excellent question. Perry actually did all these things so no sarcasm there.

I wrote this list because a fellow Texas blogger thought an earlier post I'd written had been too harsh with Perry, so I compiled a list of things the Governor had done on criminal justice that I agreed with, as sort of a self-imposed penance. Whether that makes me, or this post, pro-Perry I'll leave you to judge. Certainly I disagree with the Governor on many, various things, but I'll also give credit where it's due.

BTW, the link in the post seems to go to Grits' "About Me" page instead of the "things I like about Perry" post. The URL for the latter is here: http://gritsforbreakfast.blogs.....y-for.html

[MNG]

Did Perry sign this wacky Texas public intoxication law? Because if so it doesn't speak well of him.

http://motherjones.com/politic.....hile-brown

[capitol l]

Ann Richards was governor in '93 when the original law was signed.

[Coeus]

And that cunt needs to be water-boarded with cheap gin for not vetoing that piece of shit law.

[White Indian]

Please squeeze my nipples and call me Tonto!

[heller's angel]

My Masters, the Koch Bros., just whispered in my ear while I was on my knees before them. And they told me:

"Good little heller's angel. You think of yourself as property, you think anybody who doesn't think of themselves as property is some kind of nasty, brutish, and short slob, you justify your submission to your leasing yourself out to your wage-slave Master, and your "Libertarian" [uh,uuhh] values are the only moral [uuuuhhh,uuuuuhhhhhh] values. Now tell me what you are, my little precious."

"Property," I replied.

"Uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhh, guuuuhhhhhh oh god" the Koch Bros. cried out together, "go clean up, and lets do this again tomorrow at 7 sharp. Don't forget to clock in."

[White Indian]

Stick your peace pipe up my teepee!

[twenty-something]

Koch brother's fanfiction?

[White Indian]

I like big strong savages hunting and gathering my asshole!

[White Indian]

HEYA HEYA HEYA JERK ME OFF HEYA HEYA HEYA

[White Indian]

I used to be just "Indian" but then I jizzed all over myself after thinking about eating twigs and now I'm "White Indian"

[White Indian]

Stop raping Mother Earth and come rape me!

[White Indian #34]

I think heller is bitter I debunked his concept of people as property, as so often stated in propertarian propaganda with the rhetorical question: do you own yourself.

Hell no. People aren't property. Free people aren't at least.

People who are property are the ones who are slaves.

Part time property is part time slave.

Full time property is full time slave.

[heller]

LOL!

delusional moron.

[White Indian]

I suppose one can take a small pleasure in humoring a submissive human-as-property wage-slave.

Keep working for your Masters, that's what the system wants, that's why the Koch Bros. pay all the economic think tanks propertarian priestcraft to get you to believe.

[heller]

One who chooses to work is not a slave, you retarded ape.

[Privation Property = Duress]

Men do not do repetitive work as a matter of choice. They do it out of dire necessity. They can be driven to this sort of work only if they are deprived of access to the land. Our system of private property in land forces landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not. wherever access to land is free, men work only to provide what they actually need or desire. Wherever the white man has come in contact with savage cultures this fact becomes apparent. There is for savages in their native state no such sharp distinction between "work" and "not working" as clocks and factory whistles have accustomed the white man to accept. They cannot be made to work regularly at repetitive tasks in which they have no direct interest except by some sort of duress. Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of duress. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs. Only after he has made it impossible for them to support themselves as they desire, does be find it possible to drive them to work for him according to approved factory techniques, with sharp distinctions between the time devoted to productive labor and the time devoted to rest or play.

THIS UGLY CIVILIZATION
by RALPH BORSODI
NEW YORK | SIMON AND SCHUSTER
1 9 2 9

[heller]

Which basically boils down to "disestablishment from [something I want that someone else has] is duress"

In other words, the sniveling excuse of a cowardly little thief.

[Fluffy]

You did no such thing.

The reason you're so desperate to "debunk" the concept of self-ownership is because you want to own me.

That's what this is all about.

You want me to labor, so you can come in later and "gather" what I've labored on.

I have to own myself because the alternative is the presumption of born thieves like you.

[White Indian]

Fluffy, you're the "thief" and genocidal murderer, yoking yourself to the aggressively invasive and occupational system of agricultural City-STATISM.

[Mr. FIFY]

Wow, Fluffy... didn't know you were into genocidal murder! What's your body count?

[White Indian]

Did Stalin ever kill somebody personally? No? Hey, according to Mr. FIFY, he's totally innocent!

Advocates of agricultural City-STATISM just got cleared by the FIFY shyster on a technicality.

How's that work for you when I bring up the subject of, say, MARX? LOL

Oh, now we have a change of heart. Thought so.

[White Indian]

Officer, am I free to gambol across plain and forest in the manner of Non-State sociopolitical typologies?

No?

Then we've established that initiation of aggression is still being exercised today by the agricultural City-STATE's occupation enforcers via sheriffs, privation LandLORDS, police, etal -- with the hearty support of libertarians propertarians.

Here I thought "liberty-lovers" were about "freedom of movement."

[Get the Hell off My Property]

There's your freedom of movement. Gittin' gone, most ricky-tick.

[heller]

Of course you must realize that doing away with property, which will remove incentive and ability to farm, means that the human race must diminish its numbers by the billions. So when does the mass holocaust start?

[White Indian]

Of course you must realize that depleting and squandering Mother Earth's fertility, diversity of life, and richness of soil, which has and will remove the ability for many species to live, means that the human race must collapse and dieoff, thus diminishing its numbers by the billions. So when does your mass agricultural City-Statist holocaust start?

[Fluffy]

Unless you are advocating a policy prescription for returning us to hunter-gatherer societies, your entire argument has no point.

Hey, maybe after Mother Earth is "depleted" there will be a "dieoff". But if all you intend to do is chill out and wait for that to happen, please do us all a favor and just shut the fuck up and wait to be proven right.

But if you don't intend to wait, if you intend to do something to make us all hunter-gatherers again, then it's up to you to answer the question about what happens to all the people you deliberately want to get rid of.

If you won't answer, we can know you're full of shit.

[White Indian]

Unless you are advocating a policy prescription for returning us to hunter-gatherer societies, your entire argument has no point.

I see the diktat has come down from FLUFFY! Oh dear!

You wish I didn't have a point. But I have clearly debunked several Libertarian dogmas, demonstrating that:

1. Libertarians, purportedly either against STATISM (or at least wanting to have only mild STATISM, we never know which way you go) have absolutely zero understanding or interest in real, proven, successful Non-State sociopolitical typologies.

2. The agricultural City-STATE's system of abstract land ownership, privation property, is demonstrated with empirical evidence from anthropology, ethnographic, historical, and archeological observation to be against the Non-Aggression Principle.

3. The propertarian's fetish for control of all life on earth goes so far as to see humans-as-property, and the logical conclusion (although it's so repulsive that even many libertarians dance around the issue) of propertarian economists that humans can properly be "voluntary" (ahem) slaves.

4. While libertarians masquerade as desiring to "maximize freedom," what they really want to maximize is control and domination of all life on earth through the City-STATIST means of privation property.

Ah, now I understand why you want me to shut the fuck up. LOL

No doubt the emperor without clothes Obama has similar reactions to pointed criticism.

[heller]

You have clearly debunked any claims of your own sanity. That much is true.

[capitol l]

You don't disappoint; see directly below.

[capitol l]

He won't answer those questions because any honesty would reveal a murderous soul. He'll continue his copy 'n paste campaign of evasion.

Maybe he'll tell us which woodland creature taught him html, though.

[White Indian]

The supporters of the agricultural City-STATIST system of domination are revealed to be the murderers.

[capitol l]

What methods would you use to bring about the world you long for?

[BakedPenguin]

Here's White Injun's policy.

[capitol l]

...Turtle Island Uber Alles...?

[BakedPenguin]

"Ixachitl?n ?ber Alles". BTW, you don't need your heart for anything, right? WI needs to borrow it for a while...

[Human Sacrifice = Agriculture]

Sacrifice is an excess of domestication involving domesticated animals and occurring only in agricultural societies. Ritual killing, including human sacrifice, is unknown in nondomesticated cultures.

On the Origins of War
Twilight of the Machines
John Zerzan
http://www.jesusradicals.com/wp-conte.....of-war.pdf

[BakedPenguin]

Dear White Pol Pot (Troll Pot?): why not go somewhere where they might actually listen to you, or give a fuck what you have to say? The opinion here is unanimous that you are a fucking moron repeating tired bullshit. There are plenty of eco-idiot websites where they will eagerly enjoy your fevered rantings. Go there.

[Pol Pot = Ayn Rand's dream]

Pol Pot wanted to "restart civilization" by eradicating liberal influences and punishing and starving out people he regarded as subhumans at Year Zero.

Ayn Rand wanted also to restart civilization by eradicating liberal influences and punishing and starving out people she regarded as subhumans with a wave of the dollar brand cigarette.

What else would you expect from a movement that was inspired by a serial child killer?

ATLAS SHRIEKED: Ayn Rand's First Love and Mentor Was A Sadistic Serial Killer Who Dismembered Little Girls
http://exiledonline.com/atlas-.....nds-heart/

[BakedPenguin]

Yup, White Injun's policy.

[BakedPenguin]

White Injun's HARDON.

[capitol l]

Hey, those army guys are just trying to get those folks closer to the earth.

[White Indian]

Using your "logic," anybody who warns of economic collapse from using fiat paper money wants people to die too. So Ron Paul is a mass murderer in your fevered estimation.

Agriculture is like fiat money - a brief period of seeming prosperity, but at the expense of the future.

[Nooge]

"Propertarian" makes me think of the lady who instructed the etiquette luncheons I had to attend. That lady was so proper she'd rather explode than fart.

[MNG]

WTF?

Gun Query Off Limits for Doctors in Florida

As a primary care physician, I regularly ask patients questions that many people would consider rude, inappropriately nosy or just irrelevant in polite conversation.
There's one customary question, though, that I'm no longer allowed to ask. In June, Gov. Rick Scott signed a law barring Florida doctors from routinely asking patients if they own a gun. The law also authorizes patients to report doctors for "unnecessarily harassing" them about gun ownership and makes it illegal to routinely document firearm ownership information in a patient's medical record.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08.....9guns.html

Isn't the libertarian answer, if you don't like the questions a DR asks, don't go to him anymore, not pass a law preventing him from asking it?

[Name Nomad]

Pretty much. It's a stupid law. Of course, it's stupid for doctors to ask and then give a long diatribe about how dangerous guns are and how no one should own them. The doctor I went to as a teenager gave me that "helpful" advice every year.

[SIV]

Fla could have just required the docs to inform patients that their answer would not be confidential information and could be reported to child protective services, social workers, the police and/or mental health "authorities". Some people still have this crazy mistaken idea that info provided to their doctor is somehow privileged and "private".

[Fluffy]

Yeah, I think this is pretty stupid.

Of course, you bend over backwards for the state whenever they want to control what information I can require, request, control, or retain from any customer of mine, so I have to ask why you're singling out doctors for special privileges?

[Tulpa]

The purist libertarian answer would be to repeal state laws regulating who can be a doctor, and then let them say what they want.

I got a strong feeling the doctor complaining about this would have an even bigger problem with that course of action. Regulation giveth and regulation taketh away.

[Tulpa]

If doctors cared about their patients' health, they would probably stop asking those intrusive, nonmedical questions anyway. It's one of the things that people dread about going to the doctor these days, and it also leads patients to grow accustomed to lying to the doctor, as I routinely do on those questions. They have no fucking right to know whether I wear a seat belt or not or how many times I get laid per month, but I'm a tad paranoid about telling them that right before they probe my anus.

[sloopyinca]

I don't know why you wouldn't tell them how many times a month you got laid, Tulpa. If they're getting ready to probe your anus, they're gonna find out soon enough...NTTAWWT

7 days, Tulpa. The clock is ticking.

[Tulpa]

::golf clap::

Sorry I forgot to offer you Javon Ringer as an RB#2 before releasing him last week.

[Dr. David Suzuki, CC]

Dear Mr. White Indian,

I would like to make your story into a documentary. Please contact me.

[Dr. David Suzki, CC]

Dear Mr. White Indian,

I would very much like to produce your story as a documentary. Please contact me.

[heller]

Is it going to be called "Anarcho-Primitivism: Religion of the Insane?"

[White Indian]

Re-liege, to reconnect. That's what religion means.

What do you want to reconnect to? What is worth reconnecting to?

Not the home planet, Mother Earth and all her diverse children on the evolutionary Tree of Life that provides us with our very lives. No, that just won't do. That would be insane -- to your culture of death.

To cultivate agri fields is to deliberately kill, a man-made catastrophe on a mass scale, so that your one single crop can grow. (Death chemicals have replaced catastrophic cultivation these days, in a desperate attempt to save the half of the Midwest soil that hasn't washed down the rivers yet.)

Yours is a culture of death, and those who love live do appear insane.

[heller]

Yes, good, we'll make that the intro to Anarcho-Primitivism: Religion of the Insane. And then we have some shots of you smearing feces on your padded cell walls. That will look great.

[White Indian]

Ah, the masquerade of "maximizing freedom" is revealed for what it is: mere PR.

[White Indian]

For what it's worth, even the doltish conservatives have you libertarians pretty much pegged:

Like Marxism, libertarianism offers the fraudulent intellectual security of a complete a priori account of the political good without the effort of empirical investigation. Like Marxism, it aspires, overtly or covertly, to reduce social life to economics.

Marxism of the Right
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/mar/14/00017/

[BakedPenguin]

Whee! White Injun's policy.

[heller]

That's the dumbest shit you've pasted yet. No empirical investigation? What do you think is done on this website every fucking day? And libertarianism is a moral argument, not an economic one.

[White Indian]

If you're not at least slightly familiar with the empirical evidence behind Elman Service's sociopolitical typology, and the 4 different types of human societies, grouped under two broad headings, Non-State and State societies, you probably can't find "empirical" in the dictionary.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopolitical_typology

NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES
faculty.smu.edu/rkemper/cf_3333/Non_State_and_State_Societies.pdf

[heller]

No, we're talking about you, Chief. Did you get some electroshock therapy from Miss Ratched today?

[White Indian]

Ah, the ol' Soviet Psychiatric Hospital torture fantasies burst forth, after the masquerade of "maximizing freedom" falls off. Wow.

[capitol l]

What methods would you use to bring about the world you long for?

[BakedPenguin]

What methods could they use other than the threat of murder? Who wants to give up their life? Even this fucking troll refuses to give up his computer and go foraging in Yellowstone. He's a troll, and/or a genocidal cuntsore.

[capitol l]

Oh, I know, I just want to have him admit it.

He won't, of course.

I wonder what he would do if someone were to walk into his home, grab his computer and walk out? What would you do Mr. Indian?

[White Indian]

I see crapitol has not read what I've posted a dozen times about property. How convenient, eh?

Have a read, and I agree particularly with attorney Jeff Vail in how he differentiates between legitimate property by use and the City-STATIST's system of abstract ownership of the surface of the earth.

The Right to Property
by Jason Godesky | 18 July 2005
http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....index.html

It's fairly close to the same differentiation that the Geo-Libertarians make between property types.

Georgism (also called Geoism) is an economic philosophy and ideology that holds that people own what they create, but that things found in nature, most importantly land, belongs equally to all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarianism

[capitol l]

Blah blah lockean nonsense blah nothing is property blah don't touch my stuff.

Why can't you answer a question in your own words, without resorting to copy and pasting the same three weak articles?

What would you do if I were to walk into the place that you happen to use a a domicile and grabbed the computer that you happen to use to post on here?

[White Indian]

Funny how propertarians always propose stealing stuff from others, as if to teach them a lesson.

Sort of like the predation the City-STATISTS did on the Indians.

Why is that?

[capitol l]

If you hear it so much then you must have worked out a pretty clever response by now, right?

You don't even have the courage of your convictions to answer a couple of simple questions. I don't even think you believe the crap you're spewing; just trolling.

But go ahead, evade, copy 'n paste, insult and feel as if you've 'proven' something. If that's what gets your rock off, sicko.

[dunphy]

can we knock it off with this stupid noble savage myth run rampant.

the difference between us and the various indian tribles (many of whom were just as murderous and rapacious as we were - except generally towards other indian tribes) was primarily one thing - weapons.

we had better ones.

[White Indian]

You're psychologically projecting, HalfBaked.

I've identified, with empirical evidence, the nature of the agricultural City-STATIST system (civilization) you support.

As Stanley Diamond put it, civilization is externally invasive and internally repressive.

Go ahead with your emotional outbursts, but it is you who laughs and profits from the Genocide of the First Families. "The only good indian is a dead indian" as the "civilized" say.

[White Indian]

Half baked, you are psychologically projecting. Your system is the one who threatens violence and even murder by the enforcers of privation if people do not comply.

Officer, am I free to gambol across plain and forest? No?

[White Indian]

Roger. Acknowledged.

[Fatty Bolger]

That indictment is from January 11, 2011. Brian Terry was dead almost a month, and the gunwalker connection had already been outed on the CleanUpATF website. In other words, the shit was about to hit the fan.

As noted at Free Republic back on February 8, the timing of all of this was mighty suspicious:

Avila isn't even charged in the most serious counts of the indictment. Why? Most striking is that on January 25th, 2011, while the ATF was serving the "Avila Indictment" and preparing for the press conference to follow ? Avila wasn't even arrested in the big roundup. Why? Well, a simple Pacer search (the Federal Courts electronic document system / available to anyone via the internet) reveals that Jaime Avila Jr. was already in jail. The court records clearly show how Avila was arrested during the early morning (just after midnight) of Dec. 16th, 2010, by Phoenix ATF agents for lying on 4473's. So why on Dec 15th, 2010 did ATF feel the need to rush out and arrest Avila, on a hurried criminal complaint (as opposed to the proper method of indictment) after knowing of his trafficking activities, watching him and his coconspirators, listening to their phones, and investigating them for nearly the past 14 months? What happened on Dec. 15th, 2010?
...
The last [allegation] listed is for August 19th, 2010. What, if anything has been done between then and the January 25th round-up? Why wait so long to indict?
...
It makes no mention of the circumstances surrounding these [gun] recoveries, but it does show?

"Rio Rico 2". What happened in Rio Rico where 2 firearms were recovered?

'Project Gunwalker' allegations bolstered by Project Gunrunner indictments

What, indeed, happened in Rio Rico in December which suddenly made the arrest of Avila and subsequent indictments so urgent? Well, it turns out the Avila guns WERE the guns used to kill Brian Terry near Rio Rico. Huh. How about that?

The serial numbers on the two assault rifles found at the scene matched two rifles ATF watched Jaime Avila buy in Phoenix nearly a year before. Officials won't answer whether the bullet that killed Terry came from one of those rifles. But the nightmare had come true: "walked" guns turned up at a federal agent's murder.

CBS News reports on ATF scandal?was Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry murdered by a gun being tracked by ATF?

So, MNG, what do you think? Is the sudden indictment for a bunch of straw purchases that had been going on for a long time, an indictment and arrest roundup which just coincidentally happened right after a border patrol agent was killed with one of the straw purchased guns, proof that this was the intended result all along? They set this whole thing up, just for this?

[Fatty Bolger]

So what did happen in Rio Rico on December 15th? As it turns out, the two Avila guns WERE the ones that were used to kill Brian Terry. What a coincidence. As reported by CBS later that month:

The serial numbers on the two assault rifles found at the scene matched two rifles ATF watched Jaime Avila buy in Phoenix nearly a year before. Officials won't answer whether the bullet that killed Terry came from one of those rifles. But the nightmare had come true: "walked" guns turned up at a federal agent's murder.

Gunrunning scandal uncovered at the ATF

So, MNG, any comment? Was it was just coincidence that the indictments and arrests finally happened right after a Border Patrol officer was killed with one of the guns? Was this whole operation set up just so they could nab some straw purchasers, someday, after the guns went who knows where?

[Fatty Bolger]

This should be above and was reposted. Anybody have a squirrel hunting gun for sale?

[Pol Pot = Ayn Rand's dream]

Pol Pot wanted to:
(a) "restart civilization"
(b) by cleansing civilization of liberal influences
(c)and punishing and starving out people he regarded as subhumans
(d) at Year Zero.

Ayn Rand wanted also to:
(a) restart civilization
(b) by cleansing civilization of liberal influences
(c) and punishing and starving out people she regarded as subhumans
(d) with a wave of the dollar brand cigarette.

Not much difference. But what else would you expect from a philosophical movement inspired by a serial child killer?

ATLAS SHRIEKED: Ayn Rand's First Love and Mentor Was A Sadistic Serial Killer Who Dismembered Little Girls
http://exiledonline.com/atlas-.....nds-heart/

Romancing the Stone-Cold Killer: Ayn Rand and William Hickman
by Michael Prescott
http://michaelprescott.net/hickman.htm

[Eddie Willers]

She even screwed me over in her Killing Fields.

[Pol Pot=White Injuns Wet Dream]

White Indian wants to: END CIVILIZATION, murder ALL of its inhabitants, force people to starve, while he picks their bones.

White Injun makes Stalin, Mao, Beria, and Pol Pot look like pikers, as he wants the majority of the civilization he wants to control to die. None of the previous murderers were able to achieve this. If it were achieved, it would be sociopathology on an unseen scale.

[PantsFan]

How is he communicating with us? He wants us to revert to a primitive state of man that existed before language.

[White Indian]

Issue addressed already a few times, again for your pleasure:

the common question of whether propagating views which question technology through technological means --radio, television, the Internet--involved some type of contradiction.

An Open Letter on Technology and Mediation - Primitivism
http://www.primitivism.com/open-letter.htm

[White Indian]

The consequences of agricultural City-Statism lead to that. I'm merely warning against it.

Agriculture is like fiat money. It provides a brief boom - and then an inevitable bust.

You took a page from Bernanke, who thinks anybody opposed to his agriculture-like "stimulus" is necessarily misanthropic.

[Pol Pot=White Injuns Wet Dream]

I don't give a fuck what Ayn Rand wanted. You have stated you want to END AGRICULTURE, resulting in the death of BILLIONS - BILLIONS of HUMAN BEINGS. You are a PSYCHOPATH. I hope you DIE, very quickly, as you make people such as Ted Bundy or Charles Manson look sane by comparison. If you do remain alive, please follow your ALLEGED preferences, and go bow-and-arrow hunting on the Great Plains, or foraging for berries, or do something that will keep you the fuck off this website.

[White Indian]

Agriculture will lead to the death of billions.

Have you not read 7th grade history, how civilizations collapse from soil and resource exhaustion?

Famine is a constant companion of agriculture, just like economic collapse is a constant companion of fiat paper.

Do you want people to die massively in economic collapse, since you are against fiat money and warn against its problems?

[Holodomor = Ayn Rand's dream]

"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."

~Ayn Rand
"Q and A session following her Address To The Graduating Class Of The United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, March 6, 1974"

[Vegan Chili Fries]

so what's the answer

[White Indian]

I don't know. Was there an answer to Easter Island's problems as they cut down the last tree?

Some people are proposing answers. I lean towards people like, and in my own personal life do things advocated by the following fellows:

Resilient Communities, decentralized platforms, and self-organizing futures. By John Robb
globalguerrillas.typepad.com/

What is Rhizome?
http://www.jeffvail.net/2007/0.....izome.html

As for 6 billion people feeding themselves, this fellow has it figured out.

How to Grow More Vegetables and fruit, nuts, berries, grains and other crops Than You Ever Thought Possible On Less Land Than You Can Imagine by John Jeavons
http://www.growbiointensive.or....._main.html

But from the tenor in R.com, which is identical to most Progressivists and Neocons alike, I'd guess it's full speed ahead to cliff of collapse and dieoff, hoping for that magical Fusion Power from John Galt or some shit. Do I want to stop them from their collective stupidity via political power? No.

Besides, the pen is mightier than the sword. I think identifying the problems, as I have concentrated on, may well be the most helpful. Am I helping? I dunno. Probably not.

But it's been a fun intellectual exercise becoming a backslidden libertarian. Er, propertarian.

Just to see if some of my self-critique of libertarianism stood up to others' criticism is why I'm here at R.com.

[White Indian]

Mass starvation/genocide was a political weapon of the agricultural City-STATE.

The one Ayn Rand blatantly apologized for was about 15x more horrific than Stalin's.

[White Mathematician]

Josef Stalin > Ayn Rand

[White Indian]

Holodomor 5 million deaths by agricultural City STATISM.

Turtle Island Genocide 90 million deaths by the agricultural City STATISM.

Ayn Rand (apoligetics) 90M > Josef Stalin 5M

"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent." ~Ayn Rand

[capitol l]

Wait, shouldn't Stalin get Rand's numbers too? He was head of one of the biggest [STATES] in his time, and I can't recall him ever advocating for the end of the industrial organized society.

[PantsFan]

tonight on HBO we have a white guy vs a black guy and they use the color of the shorts to distinguish them?

/old joke I know

[Tulpa]

Reminds me of Colbert's interview with Eleanor Holmes Norton where he asked her if she was black.

[Cowboy]

Weekend threads were so much better before White Indian showed up. Where before I enjoyed irreverent humor, a couple of links, and plenty of snark, all I get now is stupid bullshit about HUMANS ARE PROPERTY and ABANDON ALL YOUR MATERIAL GOODS, and whatever else WI is bitching about this week.

WI, why don't you send me your mouse? I've worn out my scroll wheel trying to roll past all of your idiocy.

[White Indian]

Sir... does this mean that Ann-Margret's not coming?

[Mad Scientist]

Cowboy, if you're not already using Chrome, get it and install the "Reasonable" plugin. Then click your shiny new ignore link on any White Indian post and poof, the psychopath disappears.

[Cowboy]

That sounds fantastic man, thanks.

I'm a firefox user. I tried Chrome when it was first released and was unimpressed. But I think I'll give it another shot.

[Amakudari]

Chrome has improved a lot since its initial release. The big issue early on for me was that it didn't have a ton of extensions, but because they're so much easier to develop for Chrome, that changed pretty quickly. More minimal UI, faster JS and sandboxed tabs (i.e. an extension or page can fail without requiring a browser restart) seal the deal for me.

[Lurker]

I just downloaded this because of White Indian.

Best. Extension. Ever.

[On behalf of everyone]

You betcha

[Amakudari]

Thanks.

[White Indian]

If Libertarian types grasped that the State is not a separate entity, but a facet of the agricultural city state system, we'd have quotes that made much more sense, like the following I've modified:

The leviathan civilization, that monster devouring the earth in this century, is in the throes of death. ? Llewellyn H. Rockwell

Civilization can be and has often been in the course of history the main source of mischief and disaster. ? Ludwig von Mises

The great non sequitur committed by defenders of Civilization, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of Civilization. ? Murray N. Rothbard

Earth's ecology is a long record of civilization's policies that failed because they were designed with a bold disregard for the laws of ecology. ? Ludwig von Mises

Simply put civilization (i.e., the City-State) in place of state, and voil?. Makes those guys look a whole lot smarter.

(Plus I exchanged economy for ecology - etymologically identical roots - in the last quote.)

[Eduard van Haalen]

Meanwhile, in a completely unexpected development:

"Former Jihadist at the Heart of Libya's Revolution"

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/.....?hpt=hp_t1

[Res Publica Americana]

I wish shit like the Free State Project actually worked to sufficient proportions -- we'd be skull-fucking the statists at least in SOME places by now

[Free Statism]

Free State.

Military Intelligence.

Slightly Pregnant.

I think Free Statism is gonna work any day now, probably about the time HayZeus comes back in the clouds in glory. Got Hopium?

[Secular Salvationism]

Libertarian-style economics and philosophy is secular salvationism.

Why do people seek salvation (both religious and secular?)

For the first time in history, people began listening to religious teachers who promised them salvation.

It's impossible to overstate the novelty of this idea of salvation. Religion had been around in our culture for thousands of years, of course, but it had never been about salvation as we understand it or as the people of this period began to understand it. Earlier gods had been talismanic gods of kitchen and crop, mining and mist, house painting and herding, stroked at need like lucky charms, and earlier religions had been state religions, part of the apparatus of sovereignty and governance (as is apparent from their temples, built for royal ceremonies, not for popular public devotions).

Judaism, Brahmanism, Hinduism, Shintoism, and Buddhism all came into being during this period [1400 B.C.E. - 0 B.C.E.] and had no existence before it. Quite suddenly, after six thousand years of totalitarian agriculture and civilization building, the people of our culture ? East and West, twins of a single birth ? were beginning to wonder if their lives made sense, were beginning to perceive a void in themselves that economic success and civil esteem could not fill, were beginning to imagine that something was profoundly, even innately, wrong with them.

THE BOILING FROG
by Daniel Quinn
Excerpt from the book, "The Story of B"
http://www.oilcrash.com/articles/frog.htm

[On behalf of everyone]

Do you actually have any original thoughts of your own or do you just spout back what other people have said?

[White Indian]

Huh?

READ ROTHBARD!
http://www.zazzle.com/read_rothbard_t.....4260517697

Feel better now?

Rothbard's simple plan of salvation is: You are a socialist. Therefore, unless you believe in economists paid for by the Koch Bros., you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe in the Market as your soon-to-rise Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your socialism and Its gift of eternal salvation by faith.

You say, "Surely, it cannot be that simple." Yes, that simple! It is Rothbardian. It is Market's plan. My friend, believe in Money and receive It as Savior today.

If His plan is not perfectly clear, read Libertarianism in One Easy Lesson tract over and over, without laying it down, until you understand it. Your property is worth more than all the world.

Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on Rothbard's promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are four things to practice daily for economic growth:

? Work -- you're property, so sell yourself.
? Read your Mises -- Property talks to you.
? Witness -- you talk for Property.
? Go to Church -- look for the political party that has a big government statue for its symbol.

[On behalf of everyone]

so that's a no.

[White Indian]

If that didn't work for you, read Hayek.

[Res Publica Americana]

Did you read the part where I said "I wish"?

[Civilization = Child Abuse]

Can a child grow up in civilization without force?

Man is born an asocial and antisocial being. The newborn child is a savage. Egoism is his nature. Only the experience of life and the teachings of his parents, his brothers, sisters, playmates, and later of other people force him to acknowledge the advantages of social cooperation and accordingly to change his behavior.

~Ludwig von Mises
Omnipotent Government, p. 241
__________

"They're very gentle people.
They'll never punish a child
or even speak harshly to it.
So the kids are extremely well-behaved."

~The Gods Must be Crazy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66pTPWg_wUw

[Res Publica Americana]

You know, guys like you are often highly entertaining. We'll sit here, bitch at how retarded you are, but sometimes, you really DO provide amusement. This, however, is a whole new realm of fucktarded. It's just so beyond fucktarded, it's a word that hasn't yet been invented.

Do your species, Mother Earth, and everybody and everything else a favor, my friend, and go away.

[tarran]

I will say this about the white woman-hater. He did link to an awesome movie. One of the major characters is a land-rover named "the Anti-Christ" which has no brakes, an inoperative starter and is perfect for picking up chicks.

The director of that movie also did a TV series much like candid camera, although being made in South Africa, the practical jokes played on unwitting black victims were pretty horrific. There was one where this new night watchman was put in a position where he thought he was about to be blown up and was practically wetting his pants trying to make his escape.

I found it quite unwatchable.

[Ecology is Economy]

Nature is itself a free market system. A rain forest is an unplanned economy, as is a coral reef. The difference between an economy that sorts the information and energy in photons and one that sorts the information and energy in dollars is a slight one in my mind. Economy is ecology. ~John Perry Barlow, 1998

[Res Publica Americana]

OT: Made of win

http://thechive.com/2011/08/08.....-photos-2/

[On behalf of everyone]

thank you

[heller]

If you look up Golden Age Syndrome in the dictionary, there's a picture of White Indian.

[CityState Patriarchal Misogyny]

tarran said: One of the things that really gets my goat about these primitivists is the horribly rotten deal that women get

Another agricultural City-STATIST wrong. Again.

Male violence toward women originated with agriculture, which transmuted women into beasts of burden and breeders of children. Before farming, the egalitarianism of foraging life "applied as fully to women as to men," judged Eleanor Leacock, owing to the autonomy of tasks and the fact that decisions were made by those who carried them out. In the absence of production and with no drudge work suitable for child labor such as weeding, women were not consigned to onerous chores or the constant supply of babies. Along with the curse of perpetual work, via agriculture, in the expulsion from Eden, God told woman, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and that desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Similarly, the first known codified laws, those of the Sumerian king Ur-Namu, prescribed death to any woman satisfying desires outside of marriage. Thus Whyte referred to the ground women "lost relative to men when humans first abandoned a simple hunting and gathering way of life," and Simone de Beauvoir saw in the cultural equation of plow and phallus a fitting symbol of the oppression of women.

Agriculture: Demon Engine of Civilization
by John Zerzan
http://rewild.info/anthropik/l.....ilization/

[capitol l]

What methods would you use to create the world you long for?

[heller]

Which of course fails to actually reply to what tarran said, i.e. dying in childbirth.

Not that the rambling, incoherent, bible-quoting piece of shit you quoted could be said to reply to anything...

[Episiarch]

Why are you even interacting with this thing? You do realize that it's whoever was shriek, right? Why would you even talk to it?

[BakedPenguin]

You're right, Episiarch.

On a totally unrelated matter, can you (or anyone who knows) give a short example of how to mix string literal and wildcards in a javascript regular expression? Say, for example, a string literal of "Cit" and then from 3 to 12 alphanumeric characters? Thanks.

[tarran]

WOuldn't it be 'C[Ii][Tt].{3,12}'?

[BakedPenguin]

Thx, tarran.

[Amakudari]

The dot will match anything except newlines. So it would match things like "Cit*&$%". Here's an explanation.

I'd recommend:
/Cit[a-zA-Z0-9]{3,12}/

Note that tarran's [Ii][Tt] would make those letters case-insensitive (i.e. matching Cit, CIt, CiT and CIT), so substitute that if you'd like.

[Amakudari]

Also, basic regex syntax. The rest of the site is pretty useful, too. I used it when I was first learning regex (although it's extremely easy once you get the hang of it).

[tarran]

So you're a misogynist who thinks women should die in child-birth.

Thanks for settling the question of wether you were clueless or evil.

I'm done with you. I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

[capitol l]

Holy shit man, where'd you find that.

Shit's brutal.

[capitol l]

Ok, found it, though a strange story and pic for a mercedes site. That bear had to be roidin'; fucker was huuuuge!

[Amakudari]

Seriously. That guy should put some pants on.

[capitol l]

At least I now know that if attacked by a giant grizzly my penis will be left alone.

This has been something that I've worried about.

[heller]

Aww come on, I've got the Reasonable script that shows pics automatically.

[tarran]

It's my revenge on an incident where someone posted some NSFW jpg which popped up at work.

It's the Eric Dondero kind of libertarianism. If someone does something you don't like, you do it to a third person, who does it to a fourth person in turn, until eventually the cycle of revenge reaches your target.

It's like the cycle of bureaucracy but with more swearing.

[Amakudari]

It's my revenge on an incident where someone posted some NSFW jpg which popped up at work.

You're definitely not talking about this. (NSFW, duh. Also takes forever to load all the pictures in the thread.)

[City-State Good, Non-State Bad]

It's so funny.

Self-styled "libertarians" ostensibly profess to be against the State.

Upon further examination, they're not. They are full advocates of what the State really is in whole, the Agricultural City State.

Furthermore, they wax hysterical upon mention of Non-State sociopolitical typology.*

They're as inconsistent and vacuous as their Marxist sister-philosophers who also ostensibly desire to make the State wither away, yet deliver a State that proved even more disastrous than what it meant to reform.

Are so-called "Liberarians" as confused as Marxist? Or as dishonest as Marxists?

_______
* NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES
faculty.smu.edu/rkemper/cf_3333/Non_State_and_State_Societies.pdf

[heller]

Attempting to give a fuck...

[Forager Childbirth]

Among foragers childbirth is a much easier and less risky affair. Nor no is there any evidence of children dying due to medical reasons in their first years among foragers.

In earlier agricultural societies, yes, women and children dying in childbirth and early childhood are enormous issues.

But it seems the City-STATISTS are more interested in comforting lies that helps them endure the Statist society in which they live.

[heller]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tum.....o1_400.gif

[tarran]

Ah yes, argumentation by assertion!

Because the act of foraging changes women's bodies to make childbirth less risky! And of course, since hunter-gatherers keep shitty records, there is no evidence!

Now, a reasonable person would conclude that absent some mechanism that made child-birth easier, a forager would have the same risk of hemorhaging that a person living in civilization would have, and that if there were no evidence then that would not mean that they were having an easier time of childbirth.

Now, some would argue that white woman hater is trying to evade a charge of evilness, by pretending to be stupid.

But I don't think so. I think he just hopes nobody will notice his evil.

[Episiarch]

Dude, seriously, this is shriek under a different name. Just stop engaging it.

[tarran]

Are you sure it's shriek? True, bot white woman-hater and shriek were monomaniacal, incoherent and prone to taking a wise prophey enlightening the backward savages approach.

But white woman-hater's level of production is far higher than shrieks. Also shriek was a big proponent of Keynesianism. I don't think he'd give up his hobbyhorse and homoeroticism to promote something so antithetical to Keynesian ideas.

Regardless, I'm done engaging with white woman-hater. The guy is a total waste of space.

[capitol l]

WI's output seems high, but if you take away all of the copy n' pasted material you're left with about a paragraph of badly conceived insults.

[capitol l]

There is scant evidence of foragers dying, ergo they're immortal.

[Empirical vs A Priori]

Where's your evidence, tarran, for your assertions? A Priori premises that conveniently support your City-STATISM? Or just out your ass?

My analysis stems from archeology, anthropology, ethnography, and other empirical evidence.

Could you perhaps pick up a textbook? LOL No, you're FIBertarian, cocksucking the golden agriculture City-STATIST dick.

Health and the Rise of Civilization
Mark Nathan Cohen
Yale University Press
http://www.primitivism.com/health-civilization.htm

Yeah, I've got the hard cover edition in my lap right now, but you get a little on-line glimpse. Now go clean the piss off your panties and come back when you can say "scholarly empirical evidence."

Arguing with lying Fibertarians is like arguing with lying Leninists. Zero difference. City-STATIST whores to the core.

[heller]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tum.....o1_400.gif

[White Indian]

PROVE THAT MAGIC DOESN'T EXIST FIBERTARIANS!

[White Indian]

EATING TWIGS MAKES YOU IMMUNE TO INFECTIONS

ASK HOW AND I WILL PROJECT MY INABILITY TO ARGUE ON YOU

STOP ASSUMING MAGIC DOESN'T EXIST YOU STATISTS

THEY PUT TINY MAGNETS IN MY DRINKING WATER TO KEEP ME FROM GOING TO HEAVEN

[Tulpa]

OK, screwballs. I'm almost done writing a Python script to convert H&R threads to chronological order with little notes telling which comment each one is responding to. Still some minor bugs and I have no idea how to load it into Firefox or whatever, so any real web programmers are free to drop me a line at this email address if they want to help.

The INCIF people haven't done anything on this front from what I can tell, but even if this is already available it was good practice for my Python coding skillz such as they are.

[Amakudari]

Interesting. Any reason you didn't do it with some JavaScript content script (or, if you prefer Python's syntax like every sensible person, CoffeeScript)?

reasonable source is here, although I think you've figured out the important parts. Note that the one thing that doesn't play nice is that you can only track responses by a comment's "depth[0-5]" class, so after 5 nested comments it becomes difficult or impossible to track who's responding to whom.

[Proud Canadian]

I'm glad we live with single-payer in Canada, because our life-expectancy is much higher than failed capitalism.

Spain, Sweden, UK, France, Germany, and all the other democratic socialist countries have greater life expectancy than the US too.

Luckily, Reason commenters have taught me that is the primary way to measure progress.

The US is like a cheap mud hut hovel - #37! - with Sitting Bullshit arguing with his other US buddies.

Now that you Fibertarians not ardent anti-Statists anymore, why not come to the bright side of single-payer democratic socialism?

Throw those old, less effective ideas like capitalism away. Democratic socialism is what works.

Can't argue with the numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....expectancy

Shoot, even Cuba has better health care than the US in several significant metrics, as the movie Sicko showed. And - we can fly there! Freedom of movement and all that democratic socialist stuff sure beats American crapitalism.

[.]

Luckily, Reason commenters have taught me that is the primary way to measure progress.

Progress? Progress of what - slavery to the State. Screw that, you dumbass descendant of a Tory.

[Proud Canadian]

Now that Fibertarians are admitted progressivists after debating Sitting Bull (or at least watching him take away your favorite imprecation - STATIST! - that is so rich and I love him!) can you appreciate how much US capitalism looks like it was invented by hunched over twig eaters in mud huts?

Man Dies Of Toothache
By Matthew Yglesias on Sep 3, 2011
http://thinkprogress.org/ygles.....toothache/

Come on over to the bright-side.

[Tommy Douglas]

I am the greatest Canadian for a reason

[White Indian]

HAHAHA LOOK I AM USING A DIFFERENT NAME TO FOOL PEOPLE

STUPID FIBERTARIANS

YOU CAN'T COMPREHEND FACT THAT CUBE SIMULTANEOUS 24 HOUR DAYS ROTATE WITHIN SAME 24 HOUR ROTATION OF MOTHER EARTH

[Latex Mistress]

I've taken to spanking my owned Libertarian submissive boys with the Statist paddle too. Such naughty city-statist they are. So delicious.

#WInning

[White Indian]

You can't tell the difference between
your Mother and a queer guised as God.
God can't match ma hole & pa pole sex.
Every male on Earth born of a woman.
Your Dictionary will explain Viviparous.
Believers Ego kills Teen for queer image.

[capitol l]

Fibertarians: A fringe American political sect that believes regular bowel movements aren't just an accomplishment but the right of every person; regardless of wealth. An early split with the primitive living community over laxative use has led to acrimony between the two groups.

[Tulpa]

If you can see this, that means my python script works.

[Tulpa]

Unfortunately, when you submit a comment it brings you back to the nested format. Crap.

[capitol l]

I can't see it; your script is messed up, dude.

[Tulpa]

It is messed up, it doesn't show the comments at all now, because of that blasted "comment control" bar that you have to click on to see the comments. As soon as you click on it it brings you back to Reason's site with the nesting.

[Tulpa]

Ah, fixed it by clipping a cleverly concealed bit of javascript in the page. Tulpadom is within my reach.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. Indian, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[White Indian]

I suppose you don't like WI taking libertarian principles and spanking forked-tongue Fibertarians with them, eh?