Militarization of Police

Homeless Man Dies After Being Brutally Beaten by Five Fullerton Cops


Kelly Thomas' father, a retired Orange County police officer, did not recognize his own son when he went watch him die at the UC Irvine Medical Center after police beat him into a coma on July 5. The officers were responding to a call about vandalized cars when they found Thomas, a homeless schizophrenic, and attempted to search him. Thomas' father says his son may have been off his meds, which would explain why he resisted arrest. Nothing explains the gang-style murder committed by Fullerton cops. 

The top photo was taken at the hospital before Thomas died. The bottom photo is what Kelly Thomas looked like before he was brutalized. 

Here's Carlos Miller (to whom I owe a furious and heartbroken hat tip) on the incident

Kelly Thomas, a 37-year-old homeless man with schizophrenia, kept calling for his father as police beat and tased him repeatedly.

But his father, a retired Orange County sheriff's deputy, was not around.

It wasn't until after Thomas slipped into a coma and was hospitalized with multiple injures that his father saw him.

And by then, it was too late. Thomas never recovered. The 135-pound man died five days after his run-in with Fullerton police.

Here's the L.A. Times

Thomas' father, a retired Orange County sheriff's deputy, has asserted that officers used excessive force to subdue his son, who was unarmed, slight and of medium height.

After seeing his son's injuries and talking with witnesses, Thomas told the Register his son "was brutally beaten to death."

"When I first walked into the hospital, I looked at what his mother described as my son … I didn't recognize him," Thomas said. "This is cold-blooded, aggravated murder."

Thomas, citing witnesses, said officers hit his son with the butts of flashlights even after he stopped moving.

He said his son was probably off his medication and didn't understand officers' commands.

A spokesman for the Orange County Coroner's office declined to discuss the case but said an autopsy of Thomas had been completed and the results forwarded to investigators.

Witnesses are asked to call Stan Berry, an investigator with the Orange County district attorney's office, at (714) 347-8813.

Here's the video, which is mostly audio, but no less disgusting, nauseating, and heart-breaking for its lack of visuals: 

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  1. There’s nothing you can do, Jack. It’s just…Chinatown.

    1. I believe the quote is “forget it Jake, it’s Chinatown”.

      1. Quote? What quote?

      2. No, it’s “Nothing else happened.”


      1. May you have an encounter with cops like this.

        1. Violence and revenge fantasies, the hallmarks of libertarian “ethics.”

          1. Obvious troll is obvious boring.

            1. You should ignore me.

              1. ME RAPE YOU THEN IGNORE YOU.

                1. Isn’t it cool when I say something stupid pretending to be someone else.

                  1. And then criticize that straw man, pretending it confirms my opinion?

          2. Karma isn’t revenge.

            1. no but it can be a bitch sometimes

          3. Violence and revenge are linchpins of morality.

            In fact, they’re probably 50% of morality.

            The #1, paramount, central and inescapable question of morality is “When am I justified in employing violence and seeking revenge, and when am I not?”

            There’s no way to even begin to discuss the topic without addressing violence.

          4. What violence or revenge? You like these cops, you should get to meet them.

      2. Bring on the boring, repetitive troll who masturbates to police brutality!

        1. Go ahead and cite any comment here that favors police brutality, or explicitly supports the cops’ actions in this case. Be specific.

          1. I would add that all the violent rhetoric is coming from so-called “libertarians.”

            1. I’m inclined to actually feel more pity for you than anger toward you. Your seeming utter lack of understanding of the human psyche and a natural empathetic response (rage, wanting to lash out violently) to cruelty is sad.

              After my college roommate was raped, as I sat there in our living room listening to her tell the detectives what had happened, all I could think was how much pleasure I would get from violently torturing whoever had done it (we don’t really know for sure to this day, as the suspect, a serial rapist, was prosecutued in another jurisdiction).

              A similar reaction is perfectly natural when it comes to a someone we don’t even know, like Mr. Thomas. We perceive him as the weaker and more powerless (as he was, in that he was mentally ill and unarmed and alone), which triggers a reaction of bitter rage and wanting to act out violently toward his murderers. There’s a difference between feeling these things and acting on them. Feeling them and expressing them openly allows us to move on and ultimately maintain our sanity.

              Your denigration of those who feel powerless rage before the might and violence of the State just makes me shake my head with sadness.

              1. Thank you Kristen. You’ve put words to what I’m sure a lot of decent folks are feeling.

            2. I would add that all the violent rhetoric is coming from so-called “libertarians.”

              You notice that’s all that comes from libertarians. The actual violence comes from people like you and the state by way of the cops.

              1. +1

                1. +1st degree murder

              2. most of the violence comes from asshole criminals. cops respond to that.

                on some occasions, cops are the instigators of violence and should be punished. that’s the exception though, not the rule

                1. “that’s the exception though, not the rule.”
                  Well dunphy, the “exceptions” your talking about are happening with an increased and alarming frequency. Your point is troubling.

                2. on some occasions, cops are the instigators of violence and should be punished. that’s the exception though, not the rule

                  Quite right. It seems like an almost nonexistent exception that cops are actually punished like citizens when they instigate violence.


            3. What you are, Mr. Justice, is a bootlicking toady who worships power. Or, possibly, you yourself are a cop. In any case, talk of ethics is a bad joke coming from scum like you.



        2. Dunphy?

            1. I was talkin’ to Kristen.


    3. Cops need to be liquidated and their dead bodies used for lawn feed.

      The only good cop is a dead cop.

      The father deserved to lose his son. I wish pain on every man or woman who makes the mistake of joining the police force.

      1. Stupid troll is stupid.

      2. Stupid troll is stupid.

      3. So when you’ve just been hit by a drunk driver and you’re watching your better half die before your eyes, we will tell the cops to just ignore you and your family and forget about it, since, you know, cops are such scum. Comments like yours make it impossible to take extreme liberal idiots seriously. Good luck with that!

        1. BOO hoo hoo. You ever been brutalized by a cop before? U probably like it, bee otch…

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  4. If it was my car he vandalized I might be OK with killing him myself, but I certainly don’t approve of the state’s thugs doing it under color of authority.

    1. What leads you to believe the victim was vandalizing cars? No one has claimed he was. “The officers were responding to a call about vandalized cars when they found Thomas“. It does not say they found him vandalizing cars. I think a journalist should try to track down the person who had their car vandalized or at least get the recording of the call that reported it. There is a 50/50 chance that part of the story is bs and cops were just randomly harassing people as they do on the regular.

      1. Even if he was smashing out the rear windows of every car on the street and peeing in the back seat, that doesn’t change the brutality of what the cops did to him.

        The guy was schizophrenic. I’m going to bet he’s known to the cops.

        My wife is a CDMHP in Seattle, and gets called by Seattle PD to deal with the fucking craziest of the crazy. I have little love for Seattle PD, but to their general credit, they know who the street crazies are and deal with them appropriately. They’ll either subdue them quietly, or detain them by surrounding them (protecting passers-by from their aggressive or unpredictable antics) and waiting for the CDMHPs to arrive.

        Somehow, this all gets done without any of them getting killed.

        Well, most of the time.

        1. Even if he was smashing out the rear windows of every car on the street and peeing in the back seat, that doesn’t change the brutality of what the cops did to him.


          1. Mmmm. Stimulus.

        2. Everybody in Fullerton knew who he was, including several friends and relatives of mine.

          1. Yeah I saw your post below, TWC. Your perspective on this was much appreciated.

          2. What can you tell us about his behavior patterns? I see no excuse for what these police did.

    2. Please, someone murder these faggots in their beds.. in front of their families, preferably.

      1. Eye for an eye? Nice.

        1. You’re right. Nothing should be done.

          1. Justice should be done. Civilized people don’t respond to violence with violence. And screaming “Fuck the pigs!” won’t get you anywhere. People will just laugh at you or worse (for an internet narcissist), ignore you.

            1. So what you’re saying is, you have a problem with killing them in their beds, as opposed to killing them on a gurney in a back room in a prison?

              Because of the presence of beds presumably contravenes justice.

              1. Not even close.

                1. If civilized people don’t respond to violence with violence, what are we doing with a prison system?

                  Because the only reason we’re physically able to keep anyone in prison is because of violence.

                  If everyone currently IN prison and everyone currently awaiting trial and everyone contemplating committing any crime knew for a certainty that no matter what they did, the authorities would not respond to them with violence, what do you think would happen?

                  I can tell you what would happen. The people in prison would fight their way out; the people awaiting trial would not show up; the people contemplating committing crimes would commit them with smiles on their faces.

                  You can argue, if you like, that violence conducted according to our legal requirements of due process is procedurally and morally preferable to private violence, but it’s still violence.

            2. The biggest threat to any tyrannical government is truth and knowledge. People were tortured and imprisoned for life in Soviet Hungary followint the second world war for simply owning a printing press. Fuck you, impatient bastard.

              1. And killed for not being good atheists, although that tends not to get them so much sympathy from some in these parts since religion is the source of all evil, etc., etc.

            3. Civilized people don’t respond to violence with violence

              They do if they want to remain a civilization for very long.

              Civilized people don’t initiate violence. Responding to violence with violence, OTOH, is not only morally acceptable, it’s a fucking moral imperative.

              Violence in self-defense is a given, unless one is suicidal. Violence in retaliation after the fact is more of a gray area.

              We have a legal system in place to deal with scum like this, and our civility and the “social contract” demand that they get first shot. We’re not barbarians, after all, and lynching is pretty medieval.

              But, if the authorities won’t take measures because the thugs are part of their pack, all bets are off, baby.

              1. Well said and indisputable.

              2. But, if the authorities won’t take measures because the thugs are part of their pack, all bets are off, baby.

                And who gets to distinguish cases of the authorities wrongly letting thugs off the hook, from the authorities justly acquitting people who haven’t been proven guilty?

                Vigilante justice is the primo example of “you today, me tomorrow.”

                1. Well, if you’re a positive law advocate, and both the results and the procedures of the current positive law aren’t protecting you, because you have no rights except for those which are granted by the community, then what does one do if the there’s a group that decides that the violence and force, once monopolized, should be directed at its own citizens?

                  Because our little troll is posing exactly that question by dealing in absolutes when it says (paraphrased) that “civilized societies never resort to violence as an answer to violence.”

                  Do you shrug your shoulders and say that the case-by-case arbitrariness of vigilantism is enough of a utilitarian and moral deterrent to solve that problem? What if that monopoly of force becomes directed at you? Are you willing to let the community determine whether those procedural safeguards are adequate?

                2. Vigilante justice is the primo example of “you today, me tomorrow.”

                  Tulpa, I appreciate that you relish your devil’s advocate role in these hallowed halls, but you have a tendency to stray into devil’s hindquarters territory.

                  My statement was not about advocating for vigilante justice. And I’m reasonably (drink) sure that you knew that, since I also said that we weren’t barbarians after all, and that lynching was medieval.

                  For instance, I pointed out that the use of force in retaliation after the fact was a gray area. It’s a moral imperative for a country, for example, because there is no higher authority/arbiter to seek justice from. And Joshua’s point about prisons is a good one.

                  No, I was making a “come see the violence inherent in the system” point. If anything I was advocating for our own Bunker Hill, or if you want a more modern example, our own Tunisia/Egypt.

                  But fuck you very much for implying that I wanted to make Death Wish 6.

              3. I’ve argued for extra-judicial justice in these cases for many years because the system protects its own and there is no personal accountability in the system. Nearly every time, the state and its agents claim immunity. The State will maintain its not a person so can’t be held liable under a Federal CRA, the agents hide behind the immunity shield, thereby forcing all actions into the Federal CRA process which is unfeasibly legally tortuous and expensive which denies plaintiffs justice. And even wealthy plaintiffs or ones lucky enough to find competent pro bono counsel, usually lose. And in the end , there is STILL no personal repercussions on wrongdoers.

                Hence, when someone has been victimized by an agent of the State, my recommendation to that person (or their surviving friends and family) is to pursue extra-judicial personal justice in which retribution is made against the aggressor. If that means you have to beat the shit out of some bully cop, or follow the asshole around for a week until you can walk up behind him and put a bullet in his ear, so be it.

                The human animal has to live in reality – the psychological reality that aggression and force results in retaliation, and the more meta-physical reality that all actions have a reaction, even human ones.

              4. Someone once said “Violence is as American as cherry pie.”

            4. Civilized people don’t respond to violence with violence.

              Yes, they do, and always have. Violence is not incompatible with civilization. When Athens went to war, Socrates stood in the phalanx.

            5. …I’m all for a two-week suspension with pay and sensitivity training classes.

            6. Civilized people don’t respond to violence with violence.


              What the hell do you think prison is?

            7. Civilized people don’t respond to violence with violence.

              Hell i don’t even think you know what civilization means either.

          2. Straw man argument.

        2. Some animals are more equal than others.

        3. Yes. It is nice.

    3. If it was my car he vandalized I might be OK with killing him myself

      So you don’t care about disproportionate use of force, just who is dishing it out. In that regard you’re as bad as the “cops can do no wrong” crowd.

      1. Why don’t you take your preening moral vanity and piss off.

      2. I don’t think he meant that literally.

  5. If this was mentioned on the local news here in Southern California it was probably only once before being buried by incessant coverage of stuff like Lindsay Lohan and Carmageddon.

    1. I’ll take substituting severe-beating pics with LiLo cheezcake photos.

  6. Disgusting.

  7. Because the victim was schizophrenic, my prediction is that this will be the out the Orange County PD will use.

    “More training” will be the refrain.

    No, we didn’t murder him, we didn’t kill him, the officers’ response was appropriate had the man not been schizophrenic. The officers simply didn’t recognize that the man was mentally ill, and therefore not reacting to officers’ commands rationally.

    Oh, and nothing else happened.

  8. I don’t know who’s guilty of what–that’s for a jury to figure out.

    But I can’t imagine why this wouldn’t go to a jury.

    I don’t know who’s guilty of what, but there should at least be a trial.

    The cops are there to protect people’s rights. …not to beat people to death.

    Condolences to the family.

    1. But I can’t imagine why this wouldn’t go to a jury.

      Something along the lines of “a thorough internal investigation revealed that officers followed proper procedures in a life-threatening situation.”

      1. However, the investigation also concluded that more training is needed to help officers deal with and recognize mental illness. [bone thrown to critics]

        Medals all around.

        1. Unfortunately, this is probably how the “incident” will be resolved. These sick fucks should end up in general population, though. So terrible that I wouldn’t even wish this on Shrike.

          1. Rob|7.29.11 @ 7:03AM|#
            These sick fucks should end up in general population

            Come on, say it: so they can be raped?

            1. You cop apologist are so tiresome. Your buddies got to beat a guy to death and they’ll probably get away with it. But that’s not enough for you. You have to come and mock the few people outside his immediately family that are outraged by his murder. You’ve done some good work today, fuckhead.

              1. I’m not the one who approves of prison rape, “fuckhead.” Do you?

                1. Learn to read.

                  1. From what I’m reading, you think it’s wrong to criticize someone who publicly wishes that another person, who they have reason not to like, be raped.

                    That’s pretty horrid.

                    1. You think it’s wrong to criticize someone who publicly wishes that another person, who they have reason not to like, be raped.

                      what? why would one like a person who beat to death another person?

                      And why is it bad to wish (note this I a wish…like “i wish i had a magic dragon”) to want someone who caused pain and death, to receive pain and death?

                      I mean i understand justice and due process and how vigilantism does not work…but what the fuck?!?! Can’t a person indulge in a little revenge fantasizing without getting the third degree?

                2. If “general population” is so bad that police who commit crimes don’t deserve to be in it…

                  …Why is anybody in it?

                  Seriously. You take it as a given that anybody who wants these men to be convicted of a crime and serve the same damn sentence anybody else has to serve is evil and hateful and wants these guys to be raped.

                  Doesn’t that mean that anybody who wants ANYONE WHATSOEVER to serve a “general population” sentence wants the same thing?

                  1. The emphasis on “general population” makes clear that the original commenter is implying that these fellows deserve some extrajudicial punishment meted out by other prisoners. Oh, and it’s pretty well-known that the average prisoner is not going to be as much of a target for violence in prison as ex-cops would be.

                    If he had said “these cops should go to prison” that would be a different story.

                    1. Oh, and it’s pretty well-known that the average prisoner is not going to be as much of a target for violence in prison as ex-cops would be.

                      And after years of reading Reason, I now know why that is.

              2. You cop apologist are so tiresome. Your buddies got to beat a guy to death and they’ll probably get away with it. But that’s not enough for you. You have to come and mock the few people outside his immediately family that are outraged by his murder. You’ve done some good work today, fuckhead.

                Where were you on the Giffords shooting thread?

                1. Giffords was shot by a cop?

                  1. So it’s not OK to piss on the corpse of someone killed by a cop, but it is OK to piss on the corpse of someone killed by a non-cop. I see.

                    1. Who pissed on a corpse in a Gifford thread?

                      I dont remember that.

                      Now a politician, maybe. But she wasnt a corpse.

                    2. I see.

                      You see wrong. It isnt analogous so why bring it up?

                      This is a cop thread. Non-cop stuff istn relavent.

            2. No, so they can be stripped of the illusion that they’re better than common thugs.

        2. Yeah, so now if you don’t immediately obey the cops, you must be mentally ill. Ought to be good for a year or two in an institution.

          1. Worked for the Soviets. Feed the APA enough funding, and maybe the DSM VI will have it’s version of “Sluggish Schizophrenia” too?

        3. If they need to learn how to recognize mental illness they just need to look in a mirror.

      2. Somehow, this will be twisted into a “lack of funding” issue, and the police will be rewarded with more taxpayer money for murdering this guy.

    2. The cops are there to protect people’s rights. …not to beat people to death.

      You’re right, that’s not why they’re there, but it is why many of them join. Plus, thier mantra is overwhelming force – to protect themselves. You know, so they can enjoy that nice, taxpayer funded pension.

    3. The Cops union will prevent any trial, the mentioned cops will receive a week’s vacation paid for by the govt….

    4. The cops are there to protect people’s rights. …not to beat people to death.


      Keep believing the lie. Cops exist to protect the state. They are the first line of the state’s defense.
      You know – to keep the proles in line. If they best a few people to death – it be done – compliance must be maintained

    5. It would be interesting to see an ex-cop sue current cops for brutality. If I were forced to bet 35 cents on the outcome, my money would be on the current cops.

    6. I don’t know who’s guilty of what–that’s for a jury to figure out.

      I don’t know who’s guilty of what, but there should at least be a trial.

      Ken you will not be serving on the jury…it is ok to jump to conclusions on who is guilty and who is not.

  9. Ugh, don’t look at the comments in the first link. A couple of dunphy’s brothers-in-blue are actually saying this was justified.

    1. You made me look. Gonna go fight the good fight and comment on that board.

      1. I thought about commenting, but we have enough ‘crazies’ here to keep everyone fully occupied and anyway, dunphy should be around sometime tomorrow morning.

        1. To be fair, dunphy has admitted that cops do engage in bad behavior and said that they should be punished when they do. He has just argued that they deserve the same due process rights as anyone else before judgment.

          I don’t think he’ll stand up for these guys.

          1. The “Johnny Laws” debate tactic comes down to “you didn’t see what happened, therefore the cops were (probably)right.”

            Marry that to the idea that you can’t record the cops and you have yourself a nice little closed loop.

            1. Unfortunately most juries feel that way about cops, too.

              1. darn that ignorant populace!!! they need the reason sittin-in-their-mama’s-basement use of force experts to school them on the evulness(tm) of the police

            2. you can where i live. our dept. policy also specifically addresses it and if you mess with somebody recording, it’s an automatic policy violation

              as it should be

          2. If by “punished” you mean “suspended for two weeks, or at worst fired,” then yes, dunphy has said that cops who improperly use deadly force should be punished.

            1. ah, more lies from the reasonbigotry crew

              i have called for prosecution in numerous cases e.g. the paul schene case.

              i also (generally) agree with balko in re:prosecutions even when it’s not popular here e.g. the bart shooting

          3. and of course this certainly LOOKS excessive and if after we can do some interviews, look at the physical evidence, videotapes, etc. if it does in fact turn out the cops were wrong they deserve to be disciplined and/or prosecuted, depending on case facts.

            as for his mental illness, that makes it more tragic, since he very possibly wasn’t in his right mind and.or had no malice and.or didn’t have the wherewithal to know what he was doing.

            i also know that one of my coworkers was overpowered by a not particularly large mentally ill man who literally executed him at point blank range.

            i’ll wait for some facts to come out

            certainly, it LOOKS bad.

            1. Don’t sweat it. Not everyone here unequivacably hates cops. Disgusted by the behavior is another matter, though.

              1. and i am of course reflexively disgusted by the condition of this man’s face and the natural assumption is that the cops were unjustified. but i KNOW that that would be a rush to judgment, so i place my emotions behind my “reason” and consider the facts… of which i don’t know enough of to draw a conclusion

                the end result is tragic. and if a crime was committed, it should be prosecuted. *if*

                1. Agreed. I’m going to be a little more froggy than you though. Since the FBI is already investigating it, I thinkg we can discount “tragic accident” from the list of possibilities.

                  1. i certainly never opined tragic accident. the question is “was the level of force justified”. this is a process analysis, not a results analysis.

                    the fact that the FBI is involved can merely happen (according to THEIR rules) because a case has ‘significant public impact’

                    i welcome their investigation, federalism issues aside, because sunlight is the best disinfectant

                    1. The County Supervisor made a formal request to the FBI to take over the case, after the internal investigation was being swept under the rug, and the DA had not even bothered to get officially involved. (DA is a buddy with the Police Chief)

                    2. the FBI routinely gets involved, often merely because there is “public impact” of significance.

                      federalism issues aside, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and Fan Belt Inspector involvement can help

                    3. Well, in this case the County Supervisor made an official and specific request, because he saw the handwriting on the wall.

                      Look, I’m not your enemy, and I would think that I have demonstrated that.

                      Furthermore, I know how freaky and violent it gets out there. I was a paramedic for 25 years, and worked closely with law enforcement on a daily basis. Shit happens out there, and it’s fucking hard to keep an even keel sometimes if you have any testosterone in you at all.

                      We were at a domestic with reported injuries one time, out in a rural setting, no cops on scene, and none coming for awhile. The husband was still ready to rumble when we arrived, and went at the wife again.

                      I snagged him in a full nelson to protect her, and the bastard started kicking and scratching and biting, trying to turn on me. So I squeezed what I THOUGHT was a little harder. Next thing I know, he’s getting a little…uhhhh…floppy. Fortunately, I didn’t break him, and he came right back to life, only by the time he did, he and I were outside with the door locked, and my partner and Mama were inside.

                      This is my bone of contention in most of these events. It’s not so much that the individual cops lost their shit and hurt somebody, although that’s anywhere from irritating to horrifying.

                      It’s the stonewalling, whitewashing, blue wall of silence by the FOP’s, administration, internal investigations, and DA’s that makes me furious.

                    4. It’s the stonewalling, whitewashing, blue wall of silence by the FOP’s, administration, internal investigations, and DA’s that makes me furious.

                      Absofuckinglutely. Because what that behavior tells us is that there is an institutional problem that reaches far beyond the “few bad apples” theory.

                    5. Curious what process could lead to 6 police officers justifiably beating a person to death.

      2. Throw in a comment for moi if you would, please.

        1. Done and done. I’m posting as “doug” if anyone cares.

          Here’s my favorite:

          ” You people have no idea how hard it is to handcuff somebody that doesn’t want to be handcuffed and I don’t care what size they are. It’s not like on tv were as soon as they hit the ground they put their hands behind their backs. For a former cop to come out and say that is disgusting to me.”

          Let’s do a test. I’ll get five to eight of my best friends. We’ll arm ourselves with vests, batons, flashlights, tasers and firearms, and you get to wear what Kelly Thomas was wearing– no weapons.

          Then you get to resist our arrest all you want. You can fight as HARD as you possibly can– and being a police officer, you even get the advantage of having some amount of training.

          I will bet you $10,000 that we can get you in cuffs with minimal injuries and most importantly, you’ll live to tell about it. Wanna try it?

          1. Shocked, though I shouldn’t be, at the Boys In Blue defense comments. Wonder if they’re even cops.

            1. Wonder if they’re even cops.

              If they are I weep for my country.

              1. Seriously, it just goes to show you the mentality that cops have in this country when they think that not only is defending a group of cops suspected of beating a homeless man to death based on what appears to be their own inherent bias is justified, but that insulting the concerned and enraged citizens who are increasingly right to fear the police is justified, too.

                Fuck those guys. This seems like it’s how a revolution is going to end up kicking off, by the way, Boston Massacre-style. Some state thugs will be brutalizing someone, and a group of bystanders is going to step in to defend the victim, regardless of guilt, when it gets out of hand. Get your acts together soon, officers, or this kind of scenario may be unavoidable.

              2. It’s somehow less worse if they are cops, don’t you think? Police forces have been self-selecting out of the general population for many years: stupidity and cruelty are part of their DNA and a pack mentality is constantly reinforced. Police defending police is understandable. “Civilians” defending police is what boggles me… sheep arguing that the members of the flock that the wolves got had it coming to them.

                1. “Civilians” defending police is what boggles me… sheep arguing that the members of the flock that the wolves got had it coming to them.

                  Boggling, but not unusual. Solzhenitsyn wrote that even at the height of the Great Terror, most people were still thinking that those who were taken away deserved it in some way. Some way, that the observers did not. Most people have no significant experience with the sharp end of the executive branch.

                  The part of Watership Down set in the farmer’s rabbit warren seems appropriate too.

                2. this is how liberals characterize blacks who are libertarian or conservative and not liberal.

                  thanks for upping the irony quotient

            2. At least the LA Times commenters are clued in.

          2. It’s easy to get someone’s arms behind their back once they are flat on their stomachs. with your knee between their shoulder blades, they’re pretty much incapable of rolling onto one side without assistance, unless they want some serious joint damage. That ” we needed 4 large men to subdue this criminal” line is complete and utter bullshit.

            1. Even if it were true, that it took four men to subdue the guy because he was jacked up on PCP, “subdue” doesn’t require beating someone to death.

              I mean, I remember back in the 80s sometimes some kid would die while cops were trying to subdue him by putting him in a choke hold, and he’d suffocate. Shit, I remember thinking those situation were ‘in a grey area’ while everyone else was screaming “police brutality”.

              Shit, where’s the fucking outcry? These aren’t even cases where people have been put in a half-nelson for too long and died from oxygen deprivation… these victims are being beaten to death or shot or both. The cops have left the death-by-choke-hold completely behind and and just gone off the fucking reservation.

              1. It’s clear that any death by police officer needs to be questioned by people, and raged against.

                That being said, having 0 fatalities is a goal that we’ll never achieve.

                A taser that has an undiagnosed problem or a victim who happens to be allergic to pepper spray is one thing. Beating a 135 pound man to death is a totally different fucking catagory.

                1. please show me one death that was attributable to an “undiagnosed taser problem” or by undiagnosed do you mean still undiscovered?

      3. Paul|7.29.11 @ 2:48AM|#
        Gonna go fight the good fight and comment on that board…I’m posting as “doug” if anyone cares.

        Do you honestly believe that arguing with strangers on the internet will make the slightest difference? You are delusional.

        1. Yo, is that you arguing on the internet?

          1. Not an argument. An observation.

            1. Oh. Well that settles everything.

              1. Yup. Thanks for playing.

            2. Actually, our internet conduct contributes to the general atmosphere of hatred and decay, which is our best hope at this point.

              1. mmmmmmmm…I like my anarchy like I like my coffee, dark and bitter.

        2. I do! I do!

        3. Do you honestly believe that arguing with strangers on the internet will make the slightest difference? You are delusional.

          You convinced me. The fact that you uttered that argument observation changed my mind.

        4. some people are actually on the internet to exchange ideas and willing to consider them and learn…

          of course they are rare

    2. At least there were cops on there arguing against the justifiers.

    3. they are making the same error that the reason ignorati make. just from the other side of the coin.

      concluding w/o sufficient evidence

      it’s kind of ironic that they are a funhouse mirror version of the reason-rush-to-judgment crew

      1. concluding w/o sufficient evidence

        A dead body beaten bloody and unrecognizable and a video of the beating.

        yeah you guys should not be jumping to conclusions.

        Derpy derp derp

        1. so you have concluded this “beating” was unjustified?

        2. what video btw? i saw the one at the top of the page. all i can see are people standing around reacting to “the beating”,not the actual “beating”.

          it’s kind of like the reaction videos to 2 girls, one cup.

          or are you referring to a different video?

          1. Dunphy, when is several adult males causing repeated blunt-force trauma to one individual ever “justifiable”? Especially considering the (I want to say victim, but I know how you feel about that word) individual receiving the beating was unarmed and was not the party initiating confrontation?

            When? You constantly use this “wait and see if it was ‘justifiable'” line, but for Christ’s sake, when is it okay to do that to other human beings?

  10. We have friends who knew this guy. Everyone in Fullerton knew him, which means the cops knew who he was (at the very least). All of which makes this so much less excusable. Actually, it makes it cold blooded murder.

    1. The cops couldn’t have known this man. He hung out a whopping 1 block from the police station and it’s hard to know the local citizenry when you 1) never get out of your car and 2) roll through the stop signs around the liquor store Mr. Thomas was constantly around.

      1. Oh, sorry, my mistake. 🙂

      2. You forgot to mention doughnuts.

  11. Just more cops on the beat. It’s their job.

    1. on the beat

    1. You live in Houston too?

  12. As a Fullerton resident who lives next to a liquor store I ran into Mr. Thomas on numerous occasions. I can’t profess to have known him in any personal way, I just know he used to ask myself and my wife for change. I never carry any so that’s as far as my interactions with the man went. He seemed to be a pretty mild crazy guy. We have plenty of drunks and crazies out here and he didn’t stand out as anything but harmless.

    The problem with the Fullerton PD is mainly in how they’ve responded to this case. The Blue Wall went up and nothing by way of truth has come out. This city has a cop-culture insofar as two of the bulwarks of the city council are former chiefs.

    We have little in the way of serious crimes and yet the cops here can be seen on their motorcycles sporting M4 semi-automatic rifles. That should put the police-civilian relations into their proper context (i.e. we are the enemy).

    I’ll relate an anecdote to explain. While walking to the grocery store with my now father-in-law a few years back there was (unbeknownst to us) a police chase happening near where we lived. During our walk (outside of the chase area) we came across a police radio that an officer had dropped. Being a civic-minded human at the time I picked it up and attempted to return it to the first officer I found. After about 20 minutes of relentless questioning, unable to leave, and a supervisor being called our info was taken and we were allowed to continue on our way, only to be accused to having stolen the dropped radio. The whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth because I was trying to help out the police by returning equipment one of their officer’s had lost. Imagine, now, that you’re actually a suspect and put that cop v. civilian mentality into play and we see how things like this incident with Mr. Thomas are made possible.

    I have several more personal anecdotes about literally trying to do the right thing only to be hassled, accused and berated by local police. I know I can look scary but having run into Mr. Thomas I feel for him because I’m (last I checked) sane and able to comply which he was not.

    One last point – Fullerton attracts crazies and drunks because our Downtown area, due to the genius of the cop-run city council, has 30+ bars in a two-block radius. If you’re going to pull in the crazies, the drunks and the a-holes you’d better have officers who know how to be professional and deal with the alcohol-fueled clientele. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be the case.

    1. I used to live on Berkeley by the college. My experiences with Fullerton PD were mixed. The fact that the average patrol officer could not determine the legality of a shotgun barrel without calling in a Sergeant was disturbing to me. OTOH, I didn’t go to jail, so that was a positive.

      Though I don’t live there anymore, downtown doesn’t seem overly threatening to me.

      1. Though I don’t live there anymore, downtown doesn’t seem overly threatening to me.

        Maybe you’re there when there aren’t any cops around.

        1. Well, that could be. When you’re inside the jazz bar………

          1. Jazz bar? Jazz bar?? Son, are you asking me to beat you senseless??

      2. OTOH, I didn’t go to jail get beaten to death, so that was a positive.

        1. Thanks for fixing that, RC.

          It’s a long story, but I often think that if my encounter with FPD had happened recently, it would not have gone well at all.

          1. for loose definition of “think”

          2. for loose definition of “think”

          3. for loose definition of “think”

          4. for loose definition of “think”

    2. I never ran into anything quite like that in Virginia. I did have an odd experience on the occasion that I witnessed a fatal motorcycle accident. Having often heard police spokesmen complaining about witnesses not coming forward, I tried to come forward. But the officers were uninterested and downright annoyed by this, so I took the hint and went away.


  14. Homeless Man Dies After Being Brutally Beaten by Five Fullerton Cops

    Riggs, you definitely need to polish your literary style. You can’t just come right out and tell the truth like that, you know.

  15. I wrote a blog about this and Downtown Fullerton on the Libertarian Party of Orange County website. Its what happens when bad redevelopment leads to a massive overflow of drunks which leads to an overzealous police force which leads to a dead mentally ill homeless man.

  16. Fuck. I had to stop the video when he was he calling for his dad.

  17. After ten years here, I can say, without a doubt, that the picture of Mr. Thomas is the most disturbing I have ever seen on Keep Mike Riggs; this is the kind of thing which we need more.

  18. I hope this is the fate of every officer involved in this beating.…

  19. The police union is supposedly threatening possible witnesses, some who claimed that the police knee dropped the guy and beat him with the butt end of the taser. The DA didn’t pick up the case until weeks after the incident, and a laywer advised the father to take a possbile settlement instead of going to court. Otherwise, he’d have to scrutinize his relationship with his homeless son.

    I got this from the John and Ken Show.

  20. This is definitely one of those situations where criminal and civil charges should be filed against the officers. Unlike some of you seem to believe it is difficult to handcuff a person that does not want to be handcuffed. HOWEVER, beating a person is not the way to accomplish it. From what I could tell he was simply resisting arrest, he was not actively attacking the officers. Restraining him and waiting for him to tire himself out to put the cuffs on, or using pepper spray are much better ways to handle it.

    I’m not going to defend my fellow officers on this one. This was way over the line and I’d be willing to bet criminal charges will be coming down the line after they get fired.

    1. they won’t do any time for this. Equality under the law is a joke in this country.

      1. Fuck the Man!1!

        1. I’d have fucked Anne Archer about 20 years ago, if I’d gotten the chance – but damn, you’d be a piss-poor substitute even now.

    2. Just to be clear, when you say “criminal charges” you are refering to murder as the charge, correct?

  21. He yelled for his dad like a little boy. What will they think when they hear their own sons call for dad?

    I hope they remember the cry for the rest of their lives.

    1. They may very well remember it, but somehow such memories never seem to bother people who can do such as that.

    2. A+.

      I can’t watch the video now.

      1. This video is less traumatic…..crazy-man/

  22. Fucking RAGE! I would hope this, in which the victim’s father is a retired cop, might actually be an event that would help break down the “proper procedure” bullshit defense. Unless we weren’t officially updated that murder really is considered proper procedure now. I would advise everyone to spread this far and wide. Eventually, people might start to notice that these incidents really aren’t that isolated.

    1. these incidents really aren’t that isolated

      They are if words have meanings.

      isolated – 1. recurring in scattered and irregular or unpredictable instances; 2. happening rarely or only in a single case

      Police interact with the public thousands of times daily. You hear about something like this only rarely. It’s a tiny, tiny percentage of all cop-public interactions. So yes, by definition it’s “isolated.” Sorry if this inconvenient fact of reality defeats your simplistic worldview, but the real world exists independent of your opinions.

      1. Go fuck yourself.

        Tens of millions of people worldwide drive Honda Accords every day.

        If a Honda Accord was randomly exploding somewhere in America ONCE A MOTHERFUCKING DAY, it would not be appropriate to call those explosions “isolated incidents”.

        “Buh – buh – buh – this is a tiny, tiny percentage of all Honda Accord – public interactions!” you’d simper. And you’d be a worthless moron for doing so.

        1. Fluffy embarrasses itself with an infantile argumentative technique.

          No soup for you!
          Come back…two years!

          1. “Wah! You cursed at me! That means I will not address your argument!”

            Blow me, cunt.

            Explain how it’s infantile or shut the fuck up.

            I think it’s perfectly analogous.

            1. 0/3 presentation.

          2. Let me see….I don’t have an exact figure for the number of FPD officers, but let’s say 1:1000 population. Round it to 150. Six showed up. That’s 4% of the force.

            Now, what are the odds that ALL SIX “bad apples” on the police force, all willing to participate in beating a man to death, showed up at the same scene?

            Not 1, with the other 5 restraining him and talking him down, not even 2, with the other 4 backing them off. No, all fucking SIX.

            As far as I’m concerned, you never get soup again. Banned for life!

            1. This brings up an interesting point:

              If so many police are good guys, how come when one of these situations develop, rarely do other police officers intervene?

              Where are the Hugh Thomson Jr’s?

              The only case I know of, the guy was drummed off the force after he turned in and testified against a comrade at arms for battery.

              1. Pack animals are pack animals…

              2. Remember Serpico?

              3. i’ve given several examples.

                paul schene case – turned in by a detective

                don griffee, etc.

                1. I’m too lazy to see your examples, and raise you the thousands of examples where they covered each other’s asses, but you already know.

                  But, yeah, there are plenty of brave and honest cops. Some of them are friends of mine.

        2. Not a good analogy. Accords are all manufactured by the same process and have the same parts and electrical systems, etc. So one of them exploding every day would point to a common cause that threatens every Accord in America.

          With the police abuse stories, you’re talking about a wide variety of police departments responding to a wide variety of situations. The existence of a common cause is harder to prove.

          1. Dude, do you seriously think that I can’t sit here write now and type something up about the recruitment and training process for police, and the similarity of institutional responses to police violence across communities, that would meet the burden of making individual policemen the equivalent of manufactured commodities?

            Come on, you know I can do that in my sleep.

            Let’s just assume I wrote that and you read it and save us both the trouble.

          2. The common cause is the selection process that attracts authoritarian personalities (better known to the layman as a fucking cowardly bully). They also screen out the intelligent applicants – can’t make a good jackboot out of a guy smart enough to question authority.

  23. That was really fucking tough to watch.

  24. FBI Launches Formal Investigation into the Kelly Thomas Beating

    So that’s something, at least. It won’t be a strictly internal investigation.

    1. Full exoneration forthcoming, just as with the case in San Bernadino that they are “investigating.”

    2. Obama’s fishing for a contribution from the local FOP.

      1. Now THAT’S the kind of reality-based cynicism I like!

        1. Likes this.

  25. He looks like Emmett Till

  26. Damn you, Riggs…

  27. Waiting to cut out the deadwood.
    Waiting to clean up the city.
    Waiting to follow the worms.
    Waiting to put on a black shirt.
    Waiting to weed out the weaklings.
    Waiting to smash in their windows
    And kick in their doors.
    Waiting for the final solution
    To strengthen the strain.
    Waiting to follow the worms.
    Waiting to turn on the showers
    And fire the ovens.
    Waiting for the queens and the coons
    and the reds and the jews.
    Waiting to follow the worms.

    1. Awesome pop-culture reference!

      Um, what does it mean?

      1. It seems to me that many in law enforcement, and government in general, are waiting for the opportunity to “remove” the dregs from society.

        1. Oh. I thought maybe it was about Nazism.

          Cops…Nazis…same thing…

          Ooh! Now I get it! Cops, and by extension America, is a Fascist state! Thanks, Mr Whipple!

          1. Yes, Cops is a fascist state.

      2. Vatch ze vitteo…

    2. Excellent.

  28. Now this is a depressing story to wake up and read.

    It would be (slightly) less depressing if I thought there was any chance — any chance at all — that there would be a serious investigation into the facts and that the officers involved would be appropriately punished, including being hauled before a judge on murder charges. But anyone who’s read this site long enough knows there’s a better chance of Obama deciding to become a libertarian than there is of that happening.

    1. Like in the case of Kathryn Johnston and the BART cop who doesn’t know the difference between a taser and a gun?

      1. Exactly like those. No murder charges in either case.

        1. Tesler pleaded guilty to federal charges of conspiracy to violate the civil rights of Johnston. All three ex-officers pleaded guilty to “conspiracy to violate civil rights resulting in death.

          Smith and Junnier pleaded guilty to state charges of manslaughter, and federal civil rights charges. Smith and Junnier pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter and making false statements, which were state charges. Smith additionally pleaded guilty to perjury.

          1. From wikipedia. I guess the DA did initially charge murder but folded quickly.

            1. I guess the DA did initially charge murder but folded quickly.

              Most would. I mean, if you didn’t want to befall some unfortunate accident on the way home during a routine traffic stop because your “taillight was out”.

          2. If I ever murder someone, I’m going to plead guilty to that one.

  29. But anyone who’s read this site long enough knows…

    …that the prevailing philosophy is one of cynicism, blind anger, hopelessness, despair…Heroic libertarianism!

    1. Please provide a non-trolling alternative.

      Also, the anger isn’t blind.

    2. Yup.

      And the further we spread that, the closer a day of reckoning comes.

      1. Why doesn’t some major paper hunt a Pulitzer by investigating the pattern of these isolates?

        1. Because they’re isolated and therefore–by definition–not news.

          1. “Nothing to see here.” Oh, wait, that’s not right.

            How did the FPD put it 6 days after beating this man down? While they were choking a guy out, and then beat and arrested an onlooker for recording it and saying “that’s excessive”?

            What was it they said to the rest of the crowd? Oh, yeah….”Go home, or get arrested!”

          2. Because they’re isolated and therefore–by definition–not news.

            It’s not news when six+ officers beat down a 135lb unarmed schizophrenic beyond recognition? Wow, nothing else happened.

      2. Fluffy|7.29.11 @ 8:06AM|#
        And the further we spread that, the closer a day of reckoning comes.

        I’ve got news for you. “That” (cynicism, blind anger, hopelessness, despair) isn’t being “spread” anywhere; thus the prevailing frustration of this place, which fosters the ineffectual, impotent rage so characteristic of “libertarian” blogs.

        1. The common complaint about internet commentary voiced by mainstream commentators is that it spreads exactly that.

          And I am happy to contribute my two (or ten) cents.

          Do you think this is the only place I comment?

          I spread hate wherever I go. Because hate is the appropriate emotion to feel, now.

        2. Actually it is spreading:

          It was entertaining having dinner with young MD’s from Pakistan last night who were shocked as a bunch of doctors and biotech researchers regaled them with tales of brutality and corruption here in Massachusetts.

          One Pakistani guy said wonderingly, “I thought this shit only hapenned in Pakistan”.

          The thing that the dunphy’s of the world don’t realize is that the number of people who love them is decreasing. The number of people who hate them but stay quiet out of fear is growing. One day there will be a spark that ignites all that dry timber. Then watch out.

          Then look out!

          1. Preview is my friend!

          2. My own dad used to be a cop worshipper. A couple links from Hit n Run and a subscription to reason magazine got rid of that pretty quickly.

          3. The thing that the dunphy’s of the world don’t realize is that the number of people who love them is decreasing. The number of people who hate them but stay quiet out of fear is growing. One day there will be a spark that ignites all that dry timber. Then watch out.

            This. People–police or not–who sincerely believe in the ideal of the police protecting and serving the community should be greatly concerned by the way things are trending.

            I live in Northern VA myself. Every cop I see is militarized, aggressive, and just plain angry. They’re touchy as hell and go off at the slighest provocation.

            I avoid being around them if possible. If brought into contact with one I’m not obsequious, but I’m circumspect and highly alert that I’m in a potentially dangerous situation. I say as little as possible and end the encounter as quickly as possible.

            Now, you cop folks can see, can’t you, how this is a problem? The police aren’t a part of the community; they’re outsiders, by their own choice. Make whatever excuses you want; this just isn’t gonna work.

            1. I avoid being around them if possible. If brought into contact with one I’m not obsequious, but I’m circumspect and highly alert that I’m in a potentially dangerous situation. I say as little as possible and end the encounter as quickly as possible.

              Man, I can sure as hell identify with that.

              1. agreed

              2. yea, realllllly dangerous. 1/40,000 police arrests results in homicide (justified or otherwise) by a police officer.

                those are staggeringly dangerous odds!

                1. A comment I made when Dunphy trotted out his death rate stat on the Turner commentary seems appropriate:

                  Wow, they only kill 1 in 40,000?

                  That’s an interesting statistic! Because most instances of brutality don’t end in death. Most instances involve a guy with bruises, the odd broken bone, some missing teeth, maybe a few burns.

                  And it’s always somehow justifiable: he made a furtive movement; he resisted; he lunged; he attempted to flee and injured himself when the officer tackled him. [corrected from original – tarran]

                  And, oddly enough, in all the times when a video comes up showing brutality for which an officer is punished, one thing is noticeable in its absence; the guy committing the brutality is never, ever, restrained or stopped by his comrades.

                  Instead, his comrades either join in, or stand around letting the brutalizer play “Giuliani time” on his victim unmolested.

                  But hey, you’re not like that, huh? Being man with the courage to ‘friend’ LEAP on facebook you would intervene if ever you saw something like that. The fact you haven’t surely has more to do with the fact that there are so few bad apples you’ve never run into one!

            2. Fairfax? Never had any dealings with them myself, but it makes me feel uneasy even when they’re just sitting in my condo parking lot filling out paperwork. That’s called reaping what you sow, cops.

              1. I live in Fairfax County but I’m often in Prince William County, up in Arlington, etc. Same spooky story every place though.

            3. Every cop I see is militarized, aggressive, and just plain angry. They’re touchy as hell and go off at the slighest provocation.

              Sounds like most of the ex-marines I know.

              1. FORMER marine!!!!

                this is of course the complete opposite of how cops actually act, but the bigotry is oh so refreshing

            4. how about providing EVIDENCE of this alleged trend?

              the stats are out there. provide evidence.

          4. the dunphy’s of the world iow me are at least as critical of police excessive force as anybody here.

            we just don’t jump to conclusions that force was excessive w/o case facts.

            i have called for prosecution in cases of excessive force (e.g. schene etc.) and will continue to do so. i also know and.or work with people who have been railroaded into unjust prosecutions (and fortunately were acquitted or hung juried)

            the idea, constantly spouted by the ignorati that i am a “cop apologist” is laughable.

            and if these guys did wrong, they should be punished

            1. So what’s the acceptable ratio of “isolated incidents” going unpunished in your opinion?
              And when is it acceptable, to you, for people to be outraged at any noticeable (anecdotal or not) increase in the frequency or intensity of these incidents?

  30. And nothing else happened.

    1. that took too long!

      1. Said upthread multiple times last night.

  31. I think Muslims did it.

    1. Come back…come back to me my weasel…

  32. BTW:

    Whenever I open a paper and a cop somewhere has been shot, I cheer inside.

    I realize that’s wrong, because there’s always a chance that the particular cops shot in any particular instance didn’t deserve it – but I honestly don’t care any more.

    There’s no law for them; so there’s no law for me. That’s my attitude now. I’m not going to be the last motherfucking simp in this country who still believes in law. Somebody else has to turn out the lights; it ain’t gonna be me.

    When stuff happens like that shooting in Washington where a bunch of cops bought it at once, I cheer OUT LOUD. Golf claps for the shooter all around.

    1. Sign here, please.


      1. Come on, tough guy. We need men of action, somebody willing to get his hands dirty. Enough of this internet blather. Time to hit the streets!

        1. We’ve already got men of action and our hands are already dirty. Consider Kelly Thomas a warning. You libertarians are next.

          1. Warning heard loud and clear.
            You act like an occuping army you damn well better expect to be treated like one.
            We’ll see….

  33. My wife just viewed this. She’s crying now.

    1. Re: Ice Nine,

      My wife just viewed this. She’s crying now.

      That’s why I haven’t shown mine yet…

  34. I’m not demanding an answer, but really, how is this different from what Edward/Lefiti/Morris/Max did in that memorial thread? This isn’t argument or debate, it’s spitting on a dead guys’ corpse.

    Inevitable|7.29.11 @ 8:03AM|#|show direct|ignore

    Libertarian Justice|7.29.11 @ 6:52AM|#|show direct|ignore
    Eye for an eye? Nice.

    Libertarian Justice|7.29.11 @ 7:43AM|#|show direct|ignore
    Rob|7.29.11 @ 7:03AM|#
    These sick fucks should end up in general population

    Come on, say it: so they can be raped?

    Wow|7.29.11 @ 7:08AM|#|show direct|ignore
    Paul|7.29.11 @ 2:48AM|#
    Gonna go fight the good fight and comment on that board…I’m posting as “doug” if anyone cares.

    Do you honestly believe that arguing with strangers on the internet will make the slightest difference? You are delusional.

    Also|7.29.11 @ 6:54AM|#|show direct|ignore
    You forgot to mention doughnuts.

    Anne Archist|7.29.11 @ 7:45AM|#|show direct|ignore
    Fuck the Man!1!

    Or|7.29.11 @ 7:40AM|#|show direct|ignore
    these incidents really aren’t that isolated

    They are if words have meanings.

    isolated – 1. recurring in scattered and irregular or unpredictable instances; 2. happening rarely or only in a single case

    Police interact with the public thousands of times daily. You hear about something like this only rarely. It’s a tiny, tiny percentage of all cop-public interactions. So yes, by definition it’s “isolated.” Sorry if this inconvenient fact of reality defeats your simplistic worldview, but the real world exists independent of your opinions.

    Anne Archist|7.29.11 @ 7:50AM|#|show direct|ignore
    Awesome pop-culture reference!

    Um, what does it mean?

    Anne Archist|7.29.11 @ 8:16AM|#|show direct|ignore
    Oh. I thought maybe it was about Nazism.

    Cops…Nazis…same thing…

    Ooh! Now I get it! Cops, and by extension America, is a Fascist state! Thanks, Mr Whipple!

    Sorry|7.29.11 @ 8:23AM|#|show direct|ignore
    Fluffy|7.29.11 @ 8:06AM|#
    And the further we spread that, the closer a day of reckoning comes.

    I’ve got news for you. “That” (cynicism, blind anger, hopelessness, despair) isn’t being “spread” anywhere; thus the prevailing frustration of this place, which fosters the ineffectual, impotent rage so characteristic of “libertarian” blogs.

    Libertarian Recruitment Squad|7.29.11 @ 8:26AM|#|show direct|ignore
    Sign here, please.


    1. Nice, but I don’t see one instance of anyone defending the actual beating. Copy-and-paste fail.

      1. And I don’t see one instance of opposing the actual beating. Typing fail.

        1. because there is not enough we know yet to support or oppose it.

          it certainly LOOKS bad. whether it was unjustified or not – i don’t know.

          i’ve seen shit that looks bad that turned out to be entirely justified. i’ve also seen shit that looked justified that turned out not to be.

          getting outraged w/o knowing the facts is just stupid

          1. because there is not enough we know yet to support or oppose it.

            Bloody dead body of 130 lb man and video of beating of said 130 lb man by multiple assailants..

            hmmm it is hard to draw a line here…perhaps these injuries were spontaneous and self induced.

            Derpy derp derp.

            1. what video? the one i see shows some fat chick with white pants, a guy with his arms crossed, etc.

              i’m not seeing it. are you referring to a different video, or does your bigotry and prejudice allow you to fill in the blanks?

              1. I am summoning all of my willpower to give you the benefit of the doubt.

                Taking a look at that picture, what could *possibly* have transpired to make that “justifiable”.

                I want a hypothetical situation where turning a guy’s skeleton into paste with batons is justifiable.

                1. i’m summoning all my willpower to quote you : “and video of beating”

                  WHAT video of the beating?


                  1. I do not believe you were quoting me.

                    Nor do I believe you have adequately addressed my points.

                    1. jesus christ my bad. contributory fault to this fucking threading….

                      just quote your question plz… tia :

              2. wow….just…wow

    2. That’s a lot of commenting from someone who apparently thinks this is no big deal.

      Looks like someone is worried to me.

    3. Where were you on the Giffords shooting thread? Your buddies were spitting on corpses and invalids enough that you could have made birds-nest soup from them.

      1. the Giffords shooting thread? Your buddies were spitting on corpses

        I am pretty sure Sugerfree has me ignored on that Chrome add-on…

        Hard to be buddies when one is ignoring the other.

        1. I have not, by the way. And Tulpa is as full of shit as he always is. The Giffords thread was all about the media trying to blame it on Tea partiers/ right-wingers.

          And he’ll act shocked the next time someone calls him a cop apologist shitbag. Shocked!

          1. And Tulpa is as full of shit as he always is.

            Tulpa is full of shit. But I think he is referring to the emotional detachment Epi and I chose to share about the Giffords event.

    4. |show direct|ignore

      Why do you get an ignore button?

      1. Reasonable for Chrome. I love it. Comes with an ignore button for the Chonys of the world.

  35. Can’t watch the video (literally because I’m at work, but I wouldn’t anyway because it’s too early for the tears/rage mix).

    More so than any serving we’ve had on this website of police brutality, here is the best exhibit that men who become cops want nothing more than to “leagally” own weapons and beat on people weaker than them. There is absolutely no other explanation for this event when measured against the ostensible mission of police (serve and protect the fucking public) or even the soulless “make sure the boys in blue never get hurt” ethic.

    This was a beatdown of the weakest of our neighbors by agents of a corrupt, immoral, and brutal state. USSR, East Germany, Fullerton Ca. Same shit, better weather.

  36. If there’s any justice in the world, whichever cops actually took part in the beating will get 1st degree murder and sentenced to death, and the ones that weren’t actively beating the guy should be tried for being accessories to murder.

    Fucking animals. If there’s a hell, they’ll be burning by Satan’s feet.

    1. Does Cali have one of those “It doesn’t matter if you stayed in the car while your buddy shot the liquor store clerk, you are gonna fry too.” laws? Charge every one of them with murder.

      1. I think we do, called the “felony murder rule” or something like that. Good idea.

    2. whichever cops actually took part in the beating will get 1st degree murder and sentenced to death. Fucking animals. If there’s a hell, they’ll be burning by Satan’s feet.

      Yay revenge fantasies!

      1. Go fuck yourself, eat shit, and die in a fucking fire. An eye for an eye? Abso-fucking-lutely. I’ll pull the fucking switch myself.

        1. Impotent little man. You won’t do anything at all and everyone here knows it. Your violence fantasies are comical.

          1. Are you even trying anymore? Where did I ever say that I would do anything myself? Jesus Christ, dude. You’re fucking terrible at this.

            1. Oh yeah? You and what army, bub?!

                1. Also known as a libertarian exam.

      2. This has nothing to do with “revenge fantasies”. It’s about people facing consequences for the things they do. You may think that your glorious state has done away with consequences (at least for its worshippers), but you’re wrong about that. Real life doesn’t work that way.

        1. Exactly. And the implementation of consequences is the only thing that will reform police behavior. If they lived in a continual state of awareness (fear) that if they abused a citizen that they’d suffer an immediate or eventual personal consequence, they would not do this shit anymore. That’s all it is, is the lack of personal consequences. They have legal immunity as agents of the State (how convenient that the State can simply bestow immunity upon itself so that it needs not suffer any consequence from wrongdoing. Instead the only consequence is financial and that only rarely, and the only ones suffering by that are the people being victimized – the taxpayers who are forced to support the State against their will.). Its all bullshit – the idea that our “rule of law” provides for justice. It provides immunity specifically so justice does not have to be provided! What is unclear about this?

          1. As spake, Mr. Dean: You get more of what you reward, and less of what you punish.

      3. What’s wrong with hoping that someone who committed murder gets convicted and justly punished for it?

        1. Nothing, but you had a problem with it up thread?

        2. So, wait, you are okay with someone calling for the death penalty (which, on a libertarian site is often questioned) but not for someone calling for them to be sentenced to “general population”.?

          1. If you’re specifying “general population” rather than prison alone, you’re clearly calling for extrajudicial punishment.

            1. true that. fwiw, i always find it disturbing the # of people (here and elsewhere) who hope that bad guys are put amongst people who will rape them, etc.

              rape is a horrible crime. we shouldn’t punish people to get raped, although sadly the de facto case is that we sometimes do

              if they committed a crime, they deserve to be punished for it. they do not deserve to be beaten or murdered in prison

              1. It’s the prison guards (a kind of cop) that let prisoners get raped, not libertarians who have no power to make any changes over prison conditions.

                You can infer what you want from “in the general population” any way you want, but to me it’s just saying that abusive cops deserve the same same treatment as the people who they’ve been abusing, not the special treatment that they’re so often accorded.

                1. 1) PRISON GUARDS are NOT a kind of cop. it’s an entirely different job. i don’t buy that.

                  2) in some cases, they MAY let them get raped. i suspect in many, if not most, they are simply not there to stop it and based on staffing, infrastructure, etc. it’s a sad reality that they are often helpless to stop

                  and cops don’t get special treatment. when there is good reason to believe they won’t last a second, as there is with imprisoned cops but not JUST cops, they ar usually seperated from the general population

                  as they should be.

                  LOTS of prisoners fall under this classification, not just cops

                  yet again, another reasonlogicreality fail on the myth of all this special treatment

                  1. In OC, the guards at the jail are sheriff deputies. And they are sickos who incite violence for their entertainment.

                    1. in most sheriff offices that run the jails and have patrol deputies, they have different commissions.

                      that’s the case in LASO and SDSO. i can’t speak for OC.

  37. It’s been a Hell of a month for police brutality in Calfornia.

    1. And just think of the stuff that never gets reported.

      If this guy had been alone in the world, this story would never have been reported.

      1. And just think of the stuff that never gets reported.

        Exactly. Do you think this was the first time that these officers beat the shit out of someone? The difference here is that they fucked up by killing him, and that the deceased was a cop’s kid. Unfortunately, that’s what makes this newsworthy, and not just business as usual.

  38. Riggs, can you name names? These pigs deserve to be famous.

    1. That would require actual reporting instead of editorializing.

      1. why would brave public servants who did supposedly did nothing wrong need to remain anonymous?

  39. This calls for two-week suspensions!

    1. And to really show that we are serious, suspensions WITHOUT PAY!!!11!!!1

    2. Don’t go overboard, now.

    3. troll-o-meter: .02

      fwiw, i don’t know whether this calls for murder prosecution or no discipline whatsoever. nor, if you cared about facts, do you

      1. “fwiw, i don’t know whether this calls for murder prosecution or no discipline whatsoever. nor, if you cared about facts, do you”

        Even if this guy was packing heat and firing rounds at the officer, the amount of force required to subdue him doesn’t come within a tenth of that. If you’re trying to physically subdue somebody, it does not end with a guy looking like that. Even if he was hitting himself with batons before the police showed up, that kind of damage is damn near impossible to inflict upon yourself.
        I know what you’re trying to do, which is to stay neutral before the facts come out. Good on you for that, but seriously, even assuming this guy was proving to be a serious threat to himself and others, how on earth does a human being end up looking like that?

        The main problem I think a lot of people have here with the “waiting for the facts” is that they’re almost always partial facts, word-of-mouth, or non-existent (they’re never really released). And even when the facts are released, it’s done so by the same party involved in the incident. Most police departments and cities have a serious vested interest in not having the facts in these cases come to light.

  40. Still, nothing else happened.

  41. Nearly all — say 90% or more — of my brief interactions with the homeless on the streets leads me to believe that they have crippling mental problems.

    1. That’s the very they end up on the streets. They don’t have the capacity to be consistently productive, and they don’t have enough family support for whatever reason.

      1. According to my non-city friends and relatives, we’re supposed to give homeless people a shovel and tell them to git to work.

      2. In many cases they have abused years of family support and were given an ultimatum of “shape up or ship out” and they shipped out.

        Civilization has never been able to solve such a problem. But leaving it up to the justice system is probably the absolute worst approach that could be taken.

  42. duuuuuuuuuuuude

    a Friday morning nutpunch?!?!?

    And here I was, all happy and looking forward to the weekend

    1. Now the student is the teacher.

      Nice to see that Riggs learned something from Sensei Balko.

  43. These are the sort of people the electric chair was invented for, and I hope to God they all sit in one.

    1. We get it. You hate cops. And you’d like to kill a few, or at least pull the switch. Go ahead, and let us know when you do, tough guy.

      1. “We” get it? Who the fuck do you think you are? Pull the fucking streep lamp out of your ass and go join the other disingenuous shitheads and serfs pretending nothing is happening.

        If you insist on staying and continuing this shitty trolling scheme of yours, at least get better at it; when you die, your kids might want to know their father was worth an ounce of rabbit shit.


          1. Oh! How intriguing! A whole NEW trolling tactic! Show me more!

        2. Ignore him, he’s just enjoying fucking with your emotions. If he is serious, he’ll get his one day, in this world or the next.

    2. I’d be happy with manslaughter, you lose your pension, and you never get to be a cop anywhere ever again. Baby steps…

      1. I guess we have to start somewhere.

      2. It’s the best we can hope for, Beezard. If Mehserle gets one year and change for shooting an unarmed, prone, prisoner in the back, I’m not expecting anything more if these officers get prosecuted.

        Frankly, I think it’ll go down as Paul laid out above: regretable tragedy, department gets additional training, officers involved are assigned to other duties, monetary settlement paid to deceased’s family with confidentiality agreement.

        And nothing else will happen.

        1. Yeah, monetary settlement paid by the taxpayers instead of the officers involved.

          1. All union contracts should put them on the hook for at least half of the damages from cop misconduct.

        2. Ok, first of all there is HUGE difference between the Mehrserle case and this. That was an *accident*. This was a coordinated assault which had full intent.

          1. based on what do you draw these conclusions?

            right/. nothing

      3. and you never get to be a cop anywhere ever again.

        But if you do that, they’ll never be able to help people again. Helping people is their life. That’s worse that putting them in jail, since they can’t help people any more.

        (per dunphy, since apparently it’s impossible to help people without extra-judicial legal privleges)

        1. yAWN. yet another trollish misrepresentation of what i say.

          the differnt between us, putzboy is that i make a case and i respond to your case.

          i don’t consistently misrepresent your positions, like you do mine

          1. i don’t consistently misrepresent your positions, like you do mine

            No, you ignore evidence and put words in my mouth. And it’s not a misrepresentation. I just stripped all of the self-serving mental masturbation out of it.

    3. Did you just invoke God about having people killed? Correct me if im wrong but isn’t the story, amongst you believers , that Commandment #1 of the top ten list is: Thou shalt not kill? You nutbags have been breaking that rule since the first day!

      I got directed to this website from a yahoo story and as I read through the comments, I started feeling much like Alice in Wonderland and intrigued at how deep the rabbit hole went.

      There seems to be a whole lot of “impotent rage”, to borrow a phrase, with many replies pointing to that and reinforcing that its all simple banter on a message board and that you aren’t all secretly planning a violent overthrow of the government, just wishing it. I dont want to get all Glenn Becky on you but if the shoe fits.. Someone actually said they felt scared to be around police officers “I avoid being around them if possible. If brought into contact with one I’m not obsequious, but I’m circumspect and highly alert that I’m in a potentially dangerous situation. I say as little as possible and end the encounter as quickly as possible.” and others have expressed joy of reading about police officers deaths, and even quotations of Pink Floyd lyrics, like we are living in Nazi-fucking-Germany! What fucking towns do you people live in? Maybe you should move. That’s still legal, last time I checked.

      Was this police brutality? Sure as hell looks like it and I hope they pay a heavy price for their actions. Is moral outrage called for? Absofuckinglutely! Are the black helicopters coming to take us all away ha-ha, ho-ho, hee-hee? Only in your imaginations. You people comment here, raging against “the man” and calling for all sorts of extreme and violent retalliation, all the while you do so from the freedom of your homes while surfing the internets.

      Just my 2 cents

  44. If you think anything’s gonna happen to these cops, you probably also think there’s gonna be a debt deal that actually reduces the deficit.

  45. Call me a pussy all you want, but I cried watching this.

    1. It’s called being human, something these fucking hellspawn as removed from as is possible.

      1. *are as removed from

      2. …wants to do some cop-killing.

        “I’ll pull the fucking switch myself.”

        Careful now. Real libertarians don’t believe in capital punishment.

        1. You’re not masking yourself well enough, and it’s pretty obvious you’re trolling. Try being less conspicuous, and it might actually work.

        2. Careful now. Real libertarians don’t believe in capital punishment.

          The fuck you say.

      3. In this instance, ain’t that the fucking truth? I’m still crying

        1. That’s why I’m not gonna watch the video.

          1. the video that shows nothing i can see except REACTION to the UOF, not the “beating” itself?

            1. Dunphy,

              You’re right about the video not showing the actual beating. But didn’t you hear the audio? The man is screaming in agony, and he’s calling for his Dad. Adults with mental disabilities often hope Dad or Mom will get them out of trouble or save them from harm. It’s a part of the human condition as well. Even dying soldiers have called out for their mothers.

              Anyway, I don’t think you’re quite as objective as you purport to be. I was sort of bored with the commentary and people milling about as well, but the screams got to me.

              Kelly is now at peace. I pray more for the souls of the Fullerton Five, who probably don’t lose any sleep at all over this, and that actually imperils them more than any of their victims.

              1. P.S.,

                I know a few cops. I get the same sick feeling I did watching this video when I hear about a cop being killed in the news.

                Justice should be done, no matter who does the killing.

    2. Call me a pussy all you want, but I cried watching this.

      No shame in that. I saw this post almost right after it was posted in the wee hours. I tried to to sleep afterward but I couldn’t. Was lying awake half the night.

  46. This will not end, unless we wake up and remind ourselves and society what law enforcement should be about. Until the majority is ok with handing our lives over….this will continue to happen.

  47. This seems as appropriate place to post this as anywhere.

    I did a quick “study”. Two links… one to a CNN news article about the number of Cops who died in the line of duty (in 2010) OTHER than in car wrecks and one to a Department of Justice study of the number of “citizen” (ie. non-Law Enforcement) deaths that occurred DURING ARREST only (for 2006… 2010 versus 2006, apples and oranges, I know but the best I could do on short notice. If you believe the hype, the LEO deaths are increasing, so the number of LEO deaths in 2006 would have been lower than 2010).

    Results – you are SIX TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE KILLED by an arresting officer, than that officer is likely to be killed by you.

    I’d say WE are the ones who have something to fear here.


    1. I’ll quote two earlier posts I made on a related subject—the Turner shooting threat—when dunphy broke out his claim that 1 in 40K arrests result in death of the arrested:

      FWIW, and I’d really like an actuary to come in and verify this, 1/40,000 is considered by risk management professionals to be a very high risk when the result is death. Anyone have experience trying to certify a process with OSHA with a 1/40K death rate? How did the meeting go?

      Compare that risk to the risk from “hazardous” activities such as, e.g., the fatality risk of motorcycle riding (39/100M vehicle miles, per this chart from NHTSA) or the fatality risk from skydiving (1 per 100K jumps, per this article citing Swedish research). Both of those activities, FWIW, are voluntary assumed by the recipient, unlike your typical arrest.

      Piling on, is the 1/40K rate for arrests as a whole? How about broken out by race/gender/age of the arrested? Going a bit out on a limb here, but I’m guessing it’s higher for black men. Especially considering these mortality from homicide statistics, which are broken out by race/age/gender of the victim. For those not wanting to scan a 100 page .pdf for the good parts, it’s on page 68-69. Highlights: White Male, 20-24, 6.3/100,000. Black Male, 20-24, 109.4/100,000. The black male homicide rate for over 70 year olds (10.0/100k) is still higher than the white male rate I listed, which was practically the highest rate for white men. Black men are victims of homicide at rates grossly exceeding those of any other ethnic group. It is not unreasonable to infer their rates of dying from arrest by LE is also grossly in excess of the death rate from arrest for the entire population. Which is already awfully high.

      Links to the charts I cited can be found at this post and the one after it. The .pdf in particular I found fascinating reading.

      1. thread, not “threat”. I’m sure there’s more typos and bad grammar.

      2. if you wAant to play the race card, then play it both ways.

        look at officers killed and the race of the offender. look also at age of the offender and gender.

        you will see that the cop killers are not equally represented amongst every demographic, so it’s not surprising that people killed by cops aren’t either

        are bank robbery laws sexist because they target men more than 10 times as often as women?

        check the NCVS stats, where offender race and gender is reported by VICTIMs (not cops). there is astounding racial disparity, as well as gender and age disparity.

        if you can show evidence that cops kill people DISPARATE with their general tendency to engage in murder of police and/.or part I crimes, than present it.

        last i checked, cops do disparately kill men more than women certain aged men more than other ages, and certain races more than others.

        but unless you can show those stats are disparate to offender rates, you haven’t even suggested an impropriety, let alone proved one.

        1. The impropriety (since you appear to have missed it) is that cops kill six times more “citizens” than than citizens kill cops.

          That’s the disparity.

          But you knew that.


          1. no, you brought up the race card, so address it.

            and of course cops do. that’s a good thing. are we supposed to make it “even”?

            the vast majority of police homicides are justified. again, you brought up the race card, so address it

            1. Read it again. I didn’t mention race.

              But you’re okay with “civilians” being six times more likely to die during an arrest than the LEOs making the arrest?

              If not, address it.



            2. The next time I read about a cop getting murdered, I’ll just wait to see if it was justified before jumping to conclusions.. I’m sure you’ll do the same, won’t you?

        2. 1 death in 40,000 arrests is actually pretty damned high. I’ve shown other activities thought of as risky where the risk of death was much less than that. I’ve also shown that black men are the victims of homicide at much greater rates than other people. If you’ve stats for the death rates of black men being arrested, please show them. Absent those stats, I’m extremely confident that, if the rate of death for everyone getting arrested is 1/40K, which is already a very risky activity, then it’s MUCH higher for black men. Even at 1/40K, I think it’s not irrational at all to be fearful of the cops. With a higher risk, it’s even more rational. And the cited risk is for death resulting from the arrest. You don’t have to kill me during the arrest to make me fearful; shooting my dog, ripping apart my vehicle/home, or tasing me will do that too.

          All I would like your co-workers in blue to do is to make more of an effort to de-escalate interactions with those you serve and protect. I don’t hate cops; I grew up in a cop’s household. I understand that police are necessary. I’m not an An-Cap. I understand the job is frequently shit, and that cops meet the worst of humanity on a daily basis. I get all of that. But I hate the militarization, the LEO vs “civilian”, hyper-aggressive mindset that your profession has bought into in the last 20 years, and I hate the ridiculous double-standard that exists for police use of force vs. everyone else.

          Listen to the audio of the tape linked at the O.C. Register. Listen to the shock and horror of the bystanders who witnessed that beating. Those officers beat him to death. They got into such a frenzy that they helped send two of their own to the hospital. Absent a publicity campaign, and a US Atty. with ambition, nothing will happen to those men. Hell, all but one of them are already back at work.

          Perhaps it’s different in your department. But these incidents are looking a lot less “isolated” every day.

          1. it’s quite low. when you consider how many of those arrests are violent fucksticks, armed aggressive fucksticks, murderous fucksticks, etc. it’s astoundingly low.

            most are entirely unremarkable e.g. this one that just happened in my neck o the woods…


            granted, not a homicide if she lives…

            but 1/40,000 is a very very low #. when you think about all the armed felons, murder suspects, etc. etc. who are arrested w/o incident, it gives some perspective.

            in 20 + yrs of police work, what amazes me is HOW restrained cops usually are with use of force. i’ve seen several situations where cops were definitely justified in shooting and didn’t. note that is sometimes a “bad thing”, as the guy could get away to kill more.

            for example, a guy pulls a gun on my buddy, gun goes click, guy turns around and runs away. cop gives chase and loses him. he could have justifiably shot him in the back under the law of lethal force. he didn’t.

            this same buddy of mine was later shot and killed by a BGD fuckstick

            regardless, i just totally disagree. 1/40,000 TOTAL is very low and evidence of serious restraint

  48. “I thought this shit only hapenned in Pakistan”.

    Welcome to America.

    1. Yup. America is just like Pakistan.

      Why won’t anyone take libertarians seriously?


      1. if you’re Kelly Thomas, America is worse.

      2. You mean like the libertarian who is tied with Obama in the polls?

    2. Can they even tell who is homeless and schizophrenic in Pakistan?

  49. Disgusting – This stuff is happening far to often. Protect and serve is now dominate and control as honorable police officers are being replaced with sociopathic cowards.

  50. There will be an internal police investigation that will exonerate these scumbag cops.

    After that, there will be a trial and the jury will vote to acquit because the police are almost always given the benefit of the doubt-way too often in my view.

    The cycle of this type of stuff happening will continue. The will be no justice.

    Case closed.

    1. So what are we supposed to do about it? Sit and wait to become just another fucking statistic in the thugs’ stampede across civilization?

      1. You’re supposed to stop murdering people. It’s that simple.

      2. Shatter the “blue wall of silence” is what you can do about it. Find some honor in yourself. If you see a brother LEO pulling shit, don’t hesitate to call him on it, or if necessary, testify against him.

      3. So what are we supposed to do about it? Sit and wait to become just another fucking statistic in the thugs’ stampede across civilization

        Wait, I’m honestly confused by your post. Serious question: By ‘thugs” stampede across civilization, are you talking about corrupt cops or the wave of criminals like Kelly Thomas plaguing our nation?

        1. I forgot to change my troll name — I was talking about cops

      4. Your job is simply to get a person suspected of a crime to the courtroom. YOU DO NOT GET TO DECIDE PUNISHMENT! DAMN ALL POLICE OFFICERS for not following the law and hiding behind a system which makes accountability next to impossible. I, too, was beaten by LAPD for recycling a plastic bottle.

      5. What are you suppose to due about it? Stop thinking of everyone in the public as a criminal. Stop protecting or ignoring actions done by cops that you would find morally wrong and illegal in any other context (and rightly so).

    2. The cycle of this type of stuff happening will continue. The will be no justice. Case closed.

      That’s the spirit!

    3. Have you had a look at the Fullerton Mayor and Chief of Police? The Mayor looks and sounds like Boss Hawg and the Chief looks like a sleazy (but bulky) used car salesman. They want to get this scandal swept under the rug yesterdy.

      I’m glad the FBI is investigating. I wouldn’t be surprised if Fullerton was as corrupt as Bell. I wonder if the Mayor and Chief get 500k/yr salaries, too?

      1. *yesterday*

  51. This is the kind of case that the FBI should swoop in on and take total control of.

    But, it won’t happen. I suspect they’re all tied up right now getting their coverup in place for Fast and Furious.

    And of course, because the dead guy isn’t cute blonde, media coverage will be zero.

    America is officially “decadent”, in the old sense of that word.

    1. lol. alleged libertarians suddenly beholden to the FEDERAL govt. to solve (alleged and suspected w.o evidence) problems.

      i love it.

      the irony. it is thick

      1. Last I checked, libertarians believe in the 14th amendment which empowers the feds to enforce equal protection of the laws.

        1. murder is not generally a federal offense, nor are most other crimes

          they get around it with the whole civil rights thang, which is beneficial in effect, but still smacks of other such hijinx such as commerce clause, etc. to give the feds more power

          regardless, from a pragmatic angle, i welcome FBI investigation

          i never welcome dual sovereignty de facto double jeopardy prosecutions, but that’s a seperate issue

          prosecution should get ONE bite at the apple, just like they almost always do with non-cops

          dual sovereignty prosecutions are IMO (not as a de jure reality) a violation of double jeopardy

      2. If anyone would know about double standards, it’s a cop. When the local police give their federal dollars back, then you’ll have a point.

  52. A spokesman for the Orange County Coroner’s office declined to discuss the case but said an autopsy of Thomas had been completed and the results forwarded to investigators.

    “We are waiting for the autopsy results to know then if this is a case of excessive force being employed or if the man simply stumbled towards the officers’ fists several times, unwittingly.”

    1. He brutally assaulted the officer’s flashlights with his face.

    2. Duh. He obviously died of “excited delirium”.

      1. how can you make light of this awful occurrence?!?!?! :l

  53. Where’s that asshole with the nick “Another Isolated Incident”?

    Where are you, you coward?

    1. Anonymous guy on a blog calls out a “coward.” Classic!

  54. You know how I know there are no good cops?

    There are bad cops.

  55. For the record, I don’t think this guy deserved to be beaten to death.

    The people who were feeding him in the park would be a different story though.

    1. When I worked in DC, so sick of being panhandled, I use to hand out beef jerky packs on my morning commutes. They called me Jerky Man. Either it was for that, or how I entertained myself on the Metro.

  56. We continue to bend over and take this crap or we get violent. Every freedom loving citizen should be packin heat. The onlookers should have gunned these cowards down, but whose got the balls? The system is broke and the system aint gona fix itself. It’s revolution or serfdom folks. What are we gonna do about it?

    1. What are we gonna do about it?

      Engage in violence fantasies?

      Anyone notice that the people here making all the threats are the peaceful anarchists?

      Didn’t think so.

      1. I’ll tell ya what I’m going to do about it! Same as everyone else….NOTHING! I’ll bitch and moan over a few beers with my buddies. I might even store a little food and ammo, maybe buy some silver in case things get real bad. That’s about it. But if we really want to stop this out of control, corrupt system then we are going to have to start shooting. It’s peaceful servitude or violent revolution. That’s just my honest opinion. Trying to vote for the right candidate isn’t working. Now I’m gonna watch Dora The Explorer with my baby girl and then mow the lawn. That’s what I’m gonna do about it.

        1. The failure of so many so-called “libertarians” is their belief that only violent revolution will cure human failures in government…by abolishing government. Granted, it’s mostly the lunatic anarchist fringe that believes this. Reasonable humans–even leftists–know that some form of government is necessary. That’s why all the gangs– fascists, communists, socialists–unite in their scorn of anarchists. When even the left won’t have you, you know you’ve been marginalized.

          1. No. You’re wrong. Okay, first things first – anarchists give Libertarians a bad name. They have infilitrated the LP and they should be kicked out. Otherwise, yes, the Libertarian message is hard to deliver effectively when people think your party supports anarchy.

            However, if we had the same govt we had today but it was possible to execute those cops for what they did to that man, then that would also cure failures in this one aspect of govt.

            But that wouldn’t change the fact that the govt is based on theft and the initiation of violence and coercive force against peaceful people.

            That’s why so many Libertarians rail against the Statism visible is the world today, as it truly is a fucked up and evil manifestation of humanity. Is what we have better than Somali anarchy? Yes, it is. But that is some weak tea right there. We aren’t going to have a truly civilized society until we can do better than to use violence to solve complex social problems.

    2. What are we gonna do about it?

      I don’t know the answer to that question, but something that might be tried is the same thing the Feds use to fight Al Qaida: Get their funding. Cut government spending and borrowing at all costs. The more it can confiscate, tax, borrow, and spend – the larger and more powerful it grows, and the more of our liberties are lost.

    1. If anything could piss me off more than the main story, it was this:

      Police initially reported that they had broken bones; they were later diagnosed with soft-tissue damage after they were re-examined, Sgt. Andrew Goodrich said.

      I’ll remember that next time I’m on jury duty.

      1. So they thought they had broken bones, but it turns out they were just bruises. Tell that to the dead guy.

      2. Did you see some of the bootlicker comments on that update article? I know there are scum everywhere but it seems that cops draw some kind of contingent and not just of so-cons or ‘law and order’ right-wingers to their defense without even asking. There is a difference between detesting the violence of Weathermen and those who sought to kill cops simply because they were white or represented authority and questioning or wanting to punish cops who are evil or abuse their power.

        And the worst part is people will invent things to defend them, rather than debate the facts as we know them. It’s just odd to me.

        1. First comment:

          hmm how convenient. His father circulated the photo around. Good thing there isn’t something called photoshop.

          Human beings can rationalize anything.

          1. Since the kid inconveniently died on them from the beating he took, I guess that was all stage makeup. Nothing to see here…

          2. I can’t tell if this is honest or an excellent troll. Either way, he got some support:


            12:40 PM on July 30, 2011

            It was a choice that kelly made and he knew well enough how the rules go.

            Comply do NOT resist, and don’t thrash around and be violent.

            Kelly himself determined his outcome, and sadly now the officers are being slandered because of kelly being out of control.

            If a person respects authority, and IS INNOCENT they don’t put up a fight, they will always comply and not fight.

            Why don’t you all wake up and get out of being played by emotionalism and sucked in by the lies of psychology.

            Plain and simple rebellion is SIN, it’s NOT Schizophrenia.
            It is NOT a mentally illness but a Spiritual one.

            But Psychology and their titles allow people who don’t care about others, to continue in their self absorbed life style by justifying, and using it as an excuse that they are not in control, when that is the farthest thing from the truth.

            1. Most people don’t have experience with the sharp end of the executive branch, Cyto. Those that do, are usually more circumspect about it when it uses its power.

              Not that anyone is still reading this thread, but has more information about this case. Unsubstantiated rumors and allegations, which are nonetheless disturbing. Hopefully the FBI investigation can clear up some of it.

        2. it seems that cops draw some kind of contingent and not just of so-cons or ‘law and order’ right-wingers to their defense without even asking

          They’re called “groupies”.

    2. Choice quotes from the linked article:

      All but one of the police officers involved in a fatal fight with a mentally-ill man have returned to work, police said Thursday as pressure mounted for a federal investigation into what happened.

      Two police officers were also hurt in the fight earlier this month. Police initially reported that they had broken bones; they were later diagnosed with soft-tissue damage after they were re-examined, Sgt. Andrew Goodrich said.
      “It was more than just fists,” Goodrich said when asked what parts of their bodies sustained injuries.

      A cell-phone video that appears to show the fight has been posted on websites around the country. In the video, the sound of a Taser can be heard, along with Kelly Thomas screaming and then yelling, ‘Dad… dad… dad.”
      Witnesses can also be heard on the video saying, “Oh my God,” “They’re freaking ruthless” and “What is that… five cops and one guy.”
      An autopsy of Thomas was inconclusive.

      [Orange County Supervisor]Nelson said he informed District Attorney Tony Rackauckas about the federal investigation and was told that DA investigators will continue their inquiry.

      So, not even a suspension? Well, of course not, as in the eyes of O.C., they did nothing wrong. They got so into kicking the shit out this guy that they hit each other bad enough to send them to the E.R. At least that’s how I’m interpreting the officers’ injuries, considering the deceased was unarmed and 135 pounds. Maybe it’ll be spun as the deceased kicked the officers, but I’ll bet a lot of those bruises look cylindrical.

      An inconclusive autopsy is just the icing on the cake. Considering the county will be paying for any wrongful death finding, isn’t it a conflict of interest for the county to be conducting the autopsy? Is the county claiming the hospital killed him?

      Finally, that the D.A.’s investigation is still ongoing more than 3 weeks after the incident makes me wonder what they’re waiting for? It takes 3 weeks to track down everyone who might have seen the beatdown? What are they hoping to find?

      1. a suspension PRIOR to a determination of fault?

        yea, that makes sense.

        due process for everybody… except the cops…

        1. They should at least be put on leave with pay pending the investigation.

        2. A man is beaten so badly that he dies after five days in the hospital. Onlookers to the beating are horrified at what they are witnessing. The guy looked like a human pinata when they were done. Yes, there’s enough information at the outset of this, that they should have been suspended—at the very least—while the investigation is going on.

          You are used to a degree of due process in your employment that is frankly alien to those of us who don’t work in government. If I made a mistake that resulted the death of someone else, and will probably result in a significant financial loss for my employer, then yes, I’d expect to be suspended. Now. Not while a month long investigation whiles its way along.

          Further, I would not expect to be paid while I was suspended. Yes, beating a 135 pound unarmed man to death with four of your co-workers is a mistake.

          All I can say is that you sound like you’ve been a government employee for a long time.

          1. uses of force are generally horrifying. the more brutal the results, the more horrifying generally speaking

            this says little about whether it was JUSTIFIED or not.

            i don’t care what you would “EXPECT”. officers should not get suspended without due process. i’ve seen several cases in my agency of officers fired and/or suspended w./o due process who won significant payouts for exactly that reason.

            do the investigation, and THEN make the suspensionif justified.

            here’s what you don’t understand. (entirely unshocking)

            GENERALLY speaking, if there’s a chance of a criminal investigation, the civil/administrative one has to be VERY careful because since the latter involves compelled testimony (*officers can be fired for not cooperating), improper procedures can TAINT THE CRIMINAL CASE.

            because it’s a bifurcated investigation, the BEST approach is to let the criminal side get first crack for a hot of reasons having to do with ‘cat out of the bag evidence”, coercion, 5th amendment issues, etc. etc.

            iow, *if* you don’t want to fuck up a possible criminal case, you do NOT rush the civil case.

            instead of kneejerking in response consider what i wrote and feel free to research it. i am speaking the truth. it’s a complex legal process

            1. they’ll certainly get more due process than Kelly Thomas

              1. which is the case in pretty much any death investigation. whether justified or not, whether by cop or non-cop

            2. Dunphy, I admire that you come here and put up with the bashing. And I try to weigh your point of view when it comes to the police since you have first hand knowledge. But seriously, you need further evidence before knowing if this beating was JUSTIFIED? What the fuck? Five cops beat this guy’s face to a bloody pulp. I’d love to know what circumstances would justify that. Those five cops are fucking animals.

              1. i have no idea what precipitated the strikes, etc. so i can’t say whether it was justified.

                all i can say is it LOOKS very bad.

                if i was a bettin’ man (ok, i was until my leftwing scumbag legislature made online poker a C felony), i’d guess there was excessive force.

                but that’s just conjecture

                1. I’m all for the cops getting their day in court to tell their side of the story, even if Thomas will never get that opportunity. But I gotta say that I can’t even imagine the justifiable circumstances that leave his face looking like that.

                  1. again, i’m not going to decide a UOF was unjustified because of how his face looked.

                    if he was struck in the had by baton(s), he better have presented a deadly force threat.

                    that’s pretty much the crux of it

            3. ^ This. I want an answer to either Mad Scientist or my question above:

              In what hypothetical scenario would the picture of the man’s face be an acceptable outcome?

              1. again, i will repeat this….

                it’s a process analysis, not a results analysis.

                assuming there were baton strikes to the head, then those are ONLY justified in very rare circ’s, such as the man presented a deadly force threat, etc.

                if that wasn’t the case, and he was purposefully struck in the head, it’s prima facie UNreasonable force.

                1. Alright, in the face of deadly force, baton strikes to the head are allowable.

                  How many baton strikes does it take to *destroy* someone’s head? Is it reasonable to assume that this number would be larger than…say…the minimal number to incapacitate a dangerous person?

                  And can we agree that the severe damage in that photograph indicates *at least* two different incidents of some kind of blunt trauma?

                  1. how many baton strikes does it take to stop somebody using deadly force?

                    in brief, that depends.

                    i’ve seen BULLETs to a head literally bounce off and not put a person (and a deer in a few instances) down.

                    in brief, it depends

                    1. Would you agree that the number of baton strikes required to subdue a vicious assailant should be fairly conservative if there are four other men and a taser also involved in the process?

                    2. that depends among other things on the imminence.

                      i had a guy choking my partner, but she had air exchange, so i struck to the torso not the guy’s head.

                      IF she had started going cyanotic/silent, i would have struck hard and fast until she was released, whether that was 1 or 5 blows.

                    3. If you had three other officers with you, would the baton have been your route of choice?

                    4. It sounds like police need more training in grappling and ground-fighting techniques. With a 2-on-1 advantage there’s rarely a need for striking an unarmed opponent. Absent a massive size/strength advantage you should be able to get even a violent man under a degree of control with just 2 guys without ever hitting him. Then it is just a short wait until he wears himself out and you can cuff him.

                      Of course, that does present a degree of risk for injury. This case involved 5 guys, any one of which should have been able to take this guy to the ground without hitting him. Instead they went to baton strikes first when he turned away from them. That’s just lazy.

                      We need to upgrade our expectations of our police force. I suppose it all started with “Hill Street Blues” and the “stay safe out there” tag line. Now every post-killing press conference seems to involve some quote about officer safety coming first. Anybody who thinks officer safety comes first has no business doing the job.

                      Public safety comes first, second and third.

                      In this case they had a guy sitting on a bench at the beginning of the encounter. They didn’t even have an allegation of any violent actions. They didn’t even have an allegation that this particular man was involved in any criminal activity at all.

                      But in their world the mere act of walking away from an attempted search is an offense so great that it merits a violent assault. That’s how the murder of David Lee Taylor went down. He walked away before they wanted him to so they hit him with a club from behind. Exactly like Mr. Thomas here.

                      From there they have the belief that any reaction to getting struck is justification for further violence. In both of these cases we see that the police have a very hard time understanding that when you have someone who has not committed any crime, is not bothering anyone and just wants to be left alone, it is never justified for them to be murdered within the next couple of minutes.

                      In Turner’s case he was walking across a parking lot. The police didn’t like the way he responded to their questioning so they took a course of action that directly resulted in his death.

                      In Thomas’s case he was sitting on a bench. The police didn’t like the way they responded to their questioning so they took a course of action that directly resulted in his death.

                      There is no procedure, policy or union contract that can overcome these simple facts. If there is a policy that says it is OK to kill someone under these circumstances, then it is the policy that is wrong. Not our innate sense of morality.

                      And you know what? Policy doesn’t trump law. Do you think “I followed our policy” helps you if you work for some private company and you commit a crime in the course of your job? Hardly.

            4. officers should not get suspended without due process.

              You are not entitled to a job. Due process does not work that way!

              1. it does with civil service employees and/or with collective bargaining agreements.

                we DO have a right (at least where i work) not to be fired w/o due process.

                suck on it@!


        3. due process for everybody… except the cops…

          You are not entitled to a job. Due process does not work that way!

          1. it sure does when there is a CBA or civil service protection etc.

            deal with it.

            also, that refers to KEEPING A JOB. during the hiring or probationary period, management has very broad discretion.

            afterweards, due process applies

            1. No, you’re consistently conflating due process of law with your department’s employment practices. It stupid at best and rampantly dishonest at worst.

        4. due process for everybody… except the cops… and except for kelly thomas, oh wait it might have been justified, right?

        5. Do we put people suspected of crimes in jail PRIOR to a determination of guilt or innocence (i.e., a trial)?


        The Fullerton Police Department is charged with the enforcement of local, state, and federal laws, and with providing around-the-clock protection of the lives and property of the public.

    3. Two police officers were also hurt in the fight earlier this month. Police initially reported that they had broken bones; they were later diagnosed with soft-tissue damage after they were re-examined, Sgt. Andrew Goodrich said.
      “It was more than just fists,” Goodrich said when asked what parts of their bodies sustained injuries.

      So, a pack of crazed officers in a tight circle firing tazers, swinging batons and flashlights and blasting mace into the middle came away with injuries. Color me shocked.

      1. “Rumors aren’t answers, and there is a danger in too much speculation,” Nelson said. “But it is sometimes all too convenient for government to stand by this ‘We have to wait for the investigation’ bit. I’ve got people in Fullerton who are scared now, and the silence sometimes is what is causing fear.”

        That’s an excellent quote by nelson.

        1. and facts should trump emotion

    4. An autopsy of Thomas was inconclusive.

      Really? I guess he just picked that time to have a random stroke or something – after all, it’s impossible to conclude he was beaten to death. And it is sickening how the article keeps calling the beating a ‘fight’.

  57. Here’s a clue to the “civilized”, turn the other cheek imbeciles. There are evil people in the world and people who are not fit to live. That’s a fact.

  58. “We bury the funsters!”

  59. No dogs were shot.

    Nothing else happened.

  60. Oh, by the way, it’s cases like this that make me continue to be a death penalty supporter.

  61. As usual, we stand behind the Law Enforcement officers carrying out their sworn duty to protect and subdue. Peace in the streets is a necessary condition for the New Order.

  62. I didn’t think I could possibly think less of people – and then i read the comments on the linked updated story. Jesus.

  63. From all appearances, LEO’s across the nation have declared war against the American people.

    What happens when the American people reciprocate, and declare war against LEO’s??

    1. evidence to support this? have incustody deaths been trending up? etc.

      or are you just making assumptions w/o evidfence?

  64. The time has come for all uniformed patrol officers to wear cameras which record every interaction with the public.

  65. I wonder how much of this is fallout from our wars in the Middle East. Follow my on this: Soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are trained to treat civilians as the enemy; The skill sets for soldiers and police officers overlap; causing a lot of ex-soldiers to become cops; thus you end up with a modern police force that views the average man in the street as an active threat.

    We no longer have police forces that protect and serve, we have police forces that view us as islamo-fascist

    1. Meh. If anything, Iraq was the other way around. The professional soldiers were just that. The day-job cop reservists were the ones kicking in doors and…well, Muslims don’t keep dogs indoors as pets, so that won’t scan -_-

  66. Nothing will happen to these cops (I mean murderer’s). What a joke the police have become.

  67. You knew, didn’t you? I’m part of you? Close, close, close! I’m the reason why it’s no go? Why things are what they are?

  68. I hope that you bitch ass cops are reading this! You all are nothing but a bunch of little boys that probably got bullied as kids and now you got a badge so you can bully other people. Pathetic! But karma is a mutha!! You will get yours 10 fold!

    1. i wonder what percentage of professed atheists cling to the “karma” thang. i always find that hilarious. apparently, religion is ok as long as it’s not one of those pesky abrahamic things.

      karma is so hippynewagekewl that it gets a pass.

      and instant karma WILL get ya!

      1. professed atheists cling to the “karma” thang.

        Mostly none.

        The “karma” d-bags are almost always agnostics.

        Agnostics are more superstitious then your average cult of Christan snake handlers.

      2. They hang onto it (retarded as it is) because it’s the only hope they have for justice. The current system has failed them.

        1. They hang onto it (retarded as it is) because it’s the only hope they have for justice. The current system has failed them.

          That is interesting. The natural world offers no justice so they invent superstition to rectify it.

          Perhaps humans evolved a sense of retribution (I can think of no other animal that has this) which in turn spurred the creation of religion.

  69. It may seem trivial, but when did a billy club become a “baton”. Seriously, if cops were reported to be beating a man with clubs, wouldn’t that convey the reality better than using a term that refers to a decorated stick that girls in pleated skirts twirl around?

    1. Different tools. A billy club looks like a small baseball bat. A baton is either club with an additional right angle handle or an extendable pole with a wieght at the end.

  70. I hope every one of those officers loses their jobs, benefits, and do time.

    1. hope is the thing with feathers

  71. Who would not be enraged by the senseless beating death of this man? These cops need to lose their jobs and be put in the penitentiary.

  72. POLICE OFFICERS are the ones who are MENTALLY ILL. LEAVE THE HOMELESS PEOPLE ALONE! They mind their own business. THIS IS AMERICA!

  73. . . . That’s the e-mail for the Fullerton Chief of Police. Flood his inbox, please.

    1. There are some porn site registrations where that email might come in handy.

    2. ANyone know these police officers names and addresses?

  74. I am fully aware that my officers do not follow the law. I am as guilty as they are and deserve punishment. I am sorry for this tragedy. The officers involved will be fired.

    1. Shit, I hope I only have to worry about getting fired the next time I gang up with five of my friends to beat a homeless guy into a coma.

    2. Sorry isn’t gonna cut it, “ocifer” you represent a vile pit of demonic snakes. You are gonna “fire” them, are you? Awww, gee that just ain’t good enough. You are a piece of shit, and i do not respect you or your office. rot in hell, pig

    3. Firing will be too good for them. Training or not there is no excuse for this type of gang mentality. I am sick and tired of the police whining like a bunch of little girls about how difficult their job is. What I would like to know if the nations average of calls a police officer does while on a 8 hour duty. In most place probably not much. Pension, retirement benefits for life after only 20 years service. PLEASE! I hope this trial gets on tv. Give me the names and addresses of all public officials in CA that we can write to to demand justice.

  75. @ dunphy: 1) what is the worst that you think should happen to the officers, 2) what evidence should it require to support that outcome, 3) should that outcome differ from what a non-police-officer would experience, and 4) if so, why?

    1. the officers should be subject to due process of law.

      if there is sufficient evidence to charge them with crime X, then that is the crime they should be charged with.

      what happens to them THEN is up to a jury

      it’s really that simple.

      when and if there is sufficient evidence to charge a cop with a crime (absent de minimus shit that “normal” people don’t get charged with EITHER), then they should be charged.

      i’ve called for cop’s prosecution in numerous cases when that was supported by evidence

      it’s the right thing

      1. I’m puzzled. I asked you a question concerning substance/meaning, but your answer concerned form/process.

        I asked about your philosophy of law, analogous to asking someone whether he believes in capital punishment. Referring to a statute is the answer to a different kind of question. I asked your opinion about hypotheticals, and you answered by affirming (uncontroversial) procedure.

        To me it seems as though your answer would have been apposite to someone’s having asked whether these police officers should be lynched and/or do they have the right to legal representation.

        When you’ve addressed the WOD, Romeo-and-Juliet laws, and the like, you’ve told us what your preference is, ie what legislation and what enforcement you would support.

        That’s the kind of question I asked on these four topics.

  76. Those who believe that the police are just like any other profession, with good and bad ‘apples,’ you are obvioulsy free to remain comfortable in your delusion. Although, basic common sense should tell you that a job that gives broad discretion over life and death, let alone the ability to brutalize and lie with near impunity, would tend to attract the sort of person already inclined towards such behavior.

    When higher education eventually reached a critical-mass of preening left-wing idiots, the result was an almost total purge of those who weren’t of the same mindset. The police have clearly reached that point, but with the brutish, the ignorant, and the lazy. Decent folk no longer need apply.

    What the dunphys and their ilk do on this site is a variation of ‘good cop, bad cop.’ Concede the obvious and appear reasonable, when you have no choice, even throw in some personal stories to sweeten the pot, so that the nonsense and lies that follow will seem more plausible. Ignore them. He may be that one good cop, but I’ve never met one, and until I do they are in the same category as unicorns and LGM (that’s little green men in douche-bag cop-speak.)

    Is it really worth arguing with someone who needs all the facts before knowing whether beating this man to death was justified? Five cops vs. a 135lb man… beaten to death… and people still take his opinions seriously.

    I say again, simply ignore him and his ilk; dishonest people aren’t worth the time.

    1. which is of course a false premise.

      cops are not given “broad discretion” over life and death. both cops and non-cops have rights to self-defense and other’s defense.

      cops also have authority to use reasonable force to effect arrests, etc.

      the discretion is limited by case law, the constitution, and policy

      as it should be

      1. In what hypothetical scenario would the beating this man received be justified?

        1. AGAIN, i have no idea if it’s justified or not. if it wasn’t justified, then that should be acted on

          if it’s criminal, ditto.

          1. Was that the question I asked?

            1. my bad. the scenario would be where the man presented a threat of deadly force (force likely to cause death or serious bodily injury) to the officers or somebody else.

              if that wasn’t the case, THEN the baton strikes to the head were unjustified

              1. In the face of deadly force, then baton strikes to the head would be justified. I agree to this. Simple self-defense.

                But since I’m really quite hungry, I’m going to go ahead and cut to the chase.

                What manner of a threat of deadly force could one relatively small, mentally disturbed individual muster that five men with several different options (tasers, pepper spray, police cruiser) had no recourse to but to remove his face?

            2. I sense a pattern here.

              Reluctantly, because there would be little more interesting than to engage in a discussion about libertarian opinion with a law-enforcement officer.

              But engage is the operative word here.

              1. Sorry, I lose the speed-typing contest.

                Hence: Should – and if so, why should – uniformed baton strikes to the head be treated differently from non-uniformed baton strikes to the head?

        2. If he tried to walk away while they were talking to him, duh.

  77. the discretion is limited by case law, the constitution, and policy

    Leave it dunphy, he’s always got an excuse.

    Punishment after the fact is not limited discretion. The law did not stop this man from being beaten to deth. It’s not like one cop went nuts and another tried to stop him from going nuts while the others tried to use discretion to apprehend the person. They all joined in.

    The discretion is in the act. The cops used broad discretion to beat someone to death and are now using broad discretion to play down the incident. And you are using broad discretion to inflame people who are already angered by the incident. You’ve been here long enough to know that what the cops did was wrong, you know it pisses people off, and you know that if you let them vent on a comment board they’ll coll off on their own. But apparently your ego gets in the way of discretion and you’d rather escalate the emotion on the board. You are free to say what you want, but know that you do your brethren no favors.

    1. Indeed.

    2. you have NO idea how much discretion the cops used or not. again, it’s part of your rush to judgment. if there is evidence they violated the law, then that should be acted on

      but cops do not have broad discretion in re use of force.

      and over time, they have been respected (not given) less latitude NOT more (as is the reason meme) in re use of force.

      1. How about the sounds of the man screaming for his father with intermittent taser strikes?

        You have repeatedly stated that it LOOKS bad but not enough info is there, but you have refused to offer a scenario where five armed and armored men beating a 135 lb homeless man screaming for his father is plausibly justified.

        Can you manage to twist maliciousness out of behavior that is self-evidently incoherent terror?

        Can you come up with someway a small unarmed man posed a mortal threat to five policemen?

        I can get the apologetics, but in this case it you are really ruining any chance to be taken seriously by clinging to an absurd argument.

        And furthermore, saying that this is an isolated incident when ALL FIVE police officers participated and apparently none were able to manage to see things in the same light as the bystanders is plain silly. It is not possible for five officers to engage in a single isolated incident, if the bloodlust necessary for such a beating to occur was isolated, surely one or more could have interjected with a little objectivity?

      2. You have also been unsurprisingly silent on the exaggerated and slow-coming police reports and investigations. Is that another isolated incident, cops sticking up for their own even after heinous acts?

  78. cops are disgusting animals worse then rats

    1. that’s unfair to rats.

      derp derp derp

      1. Not so derp in this case.

  79. Thats brutal! I hope those officers are punished to the full extent of the law. If kelly was off his meds I’m sure wih his diagnoses he was rather strong, but nothing constitutes 5 officers beating him to that extent. Totally uncalled for. This is just heartbreaking.

  80. I make this vow now that if I ever see something like this happening I will not stand 50 feet away and just watch. How can those pleas for ‘Dad’ ever leave someone’s conscience?

    1. Hey Ryan,

      Gangbangers like dunphy have radios. They have helicopters. If you intervene, you will likely end up dead. If you survive, you’re looking at serious jail time, after a trial administered by an impartial judge drawing a pay check from the same monopoly that employs the gangbangers beating the guy.

      In fact, the gang will make an example of you, demonizing you as they did Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidian sect.

      If you have a wife, you’ll probably lose her, or doom her to a hard life raising your kids alone. Your kids will have a much lower chance of gaining the knowledge/degreees they need to live comfortable lives.

      It’s a shitty calculus, performed hastily and in fear.

      Is it any wonder decent men and women are frozen and do nothing?

      Speaking for myself, I don’t advise violent confrontation. That’s the battlefield where the gang-bangers have the advantage and they want to fight on that ground.

      Documenting and publicising their activities while giving them no plausible excuse that is acceptable to our countrymen – that is the ground where we have the advantage, that is the ground they fear, and that is the ground where we must resist them.

      1. Sadly, I am forced to agree. While I want to rage in response to this stuff, I know it won’t do any good. These are opportunities to think strategically.

        To wit: carry a pop-up video camera, and when you witness something, get thine ass to Starbucks and upload said video to youtube. Judge them in the court of public opinion where we don’t automatically have the deck stacked against us.

  81. I’m going to say it–the retired cop/father probably deserves this for all the times HE brutalized innocent American citizens. We see these same stories about once a week. The police all over America are out of control.

    1. You sir are the ‘pig’ for saying such a thing.

    2. You’re an a$$hole!

    3. ….blaming the victim because his dad was a cop?!?

    4. That’s a cold, collectivist attitude. Asshole.

  82. OH MY GOD! It is horrible. Those cops should be castrated and jailed for life!

  83. Next time it may be your mother that the cops brutalize

  84. dunphy reminds me of Dave Chappelle’s OJ Simpson episode – the bar for obviousness is set so high that any manner of excusing away naked guilt is hilariously possible. Sometimes a spade is a spade – and yes, I understand how sacrosanct the legal process is, and the beauty of Constitutionally afforded presumption of innocence.

    1. they are about as innocent as my husband’s left nut. millions will go to their trial what a waste. announce the date and time – strip them of their guns and let us have a few minutes with them

  85. Everyone of them cops should have the same done to them i will never forget what i just saw i wish the worst to everyone one of them worthless fucking cops and hope them get everything coming to them THIS SHOULD HAVE NEVER TOOK PLACE FUCK THEM ROTTEN COPS I HOPE EVERYONE ONE OF THEM GETS LIFE OR GOD JUST DOES IT FOR US BEFORE WE WAIST TAX MONY ON GUILTY FUCKED UP COPS

  86. This is heartbreaking. The cops involved in the attack are nothing but vicious thugs behind a badge. Disgraceful. May Kelly’s loved ones get justice and may he rest in God’s peace.

  87. The police officers involved in this brutal murder should be not only tried for this young mans murder – but they and their families should be stripped of every benefit now and in the future. They are no better then common criminals and anyone who thinks this couldn’t happen to them needs to wake up. This type of brutality by savage barbarians against an innocent man was like a frenzy. They should all commit suicide and save us the trouble.

    1. Oh no, that would be unfair to the perpetrating officer’s family….the Public Employee’s unions have already set a precedent in California — even though the employee or official is guilty of embezzlement, rape or murder, we can’t let the family suffer. So fuck all you taxpayers. Heads we win, tails you lose.

      1. You are a life sucking maggot – hey I know take a bullet for the team

  88. I hope these cops are arrested for beating this disabled man. Are they above the law? NO! They better not be on the streets. Have you no empathy people? Are you all so cold hearted that you don’t care about another human being whom died at the hands of cops.. or any way else? God help you!

  89. I hope it has been said before, but these cops need to be brutally beaten.

  90. 90% of you are idiots…thank you to the other 10%

    Idiots drunk with power who suck their superiors wieners ….move to Canada

  91. These brutal monsters are what give the rest of good cops a bad rep. May they never have to encounter a similar situation to one of their family members although it is very tempting to wish just that after watching this base human behavior.

    1. Carlos,
      Good cops who cover for and enable bad cops are themselves bad cops. In this case, silence is a sin of omission.

  92. I can’t believe that none of the witnesses yelled out for the m to stop. They knew the cops were using excessive force and yet no yelled to them that what they were doing was wrong. That pisses me off too! Stop being so afraid of the police!

    1. I’m afraid of the police because they do things like this.

      But I hope to God I do the right thing if I ever see something like this happening.

      1. I’m NOT afraid of the police, because I know that THIS is an ISOLATED incident. However, I still hope I would do the right thing, if I saw the same.

  93. That is rediculous!!!Can we say excessive force! Police brutallity! If that were my son and I was a retired police officer i would prossicute to the fullest extent of the law! There is never a good reason for beatting anyone to death! Were are todays officers getting their training?! They should have been better prepared to handel a situation like that! They are FULLERTON police officers! What a bunch of assholes!

    1. Don’t be such an idiot saying stupidity as that. It’s obvious u have no respect for police officers let alone soldiers giving u the freedom to say those things!

  94. Don’t bother with the death sentences. Just give them life in the general population, make sure people know why they’re there, and let the chips fall as they may.

    I am usually against that sort of thing, but for cops (or prison guards, etc) I’m fine with it.

  95. well, now this is what i call divine justice! how many sons and daughters did his father beat up and brutalize during his career? but he expects that his own will escape scot free? thats not how life works. what you give, you get. i think its time to start giving these fucking low life parasites a taste of their own medicine, because they obviously have no clue about life. we pay their salaries by our taxes, which we are FORCED to pay. these parasites are OUR EMPLOYEES, not the other way around!!!!!!! Look, pigs…YOU WORK AT OUR BEHEST, you got that? you want respect, EARN IT!
    no, never mind, that will never happen, too much damage continues to be done, with OUR MONEY. why are we paying these trolls to kill us?????? i say, we start killing them, maybe that will make them realize, or not.

    1. ….the victim deserved it because his dad was a cop?!?

  96. It’s terrible to see what happened in this case, and I hope a full investigation leads to justice for this guy. But, Hunt’s comment couldn’t be more right. It’s natural for a person who is not involved with Public Service like myself and Alex to automatically attach that image with ALL police officers…mostly because they were pulled over and given a speeding ticket or got a DUI. When in reality they fail to come to the conclusion that if they weren’t speeding or swerving lanes they wouldn’t have been pulled over to begin with. Everyone is very quick to rush to the defense of themselves or others who have had a run-in with the police. But I see NO comments on Facebook when people like Clayton County Police Officer Rick Daly who was shot and killed by a teenager he pulled over just days ago, or when Asheville Fire Captain Jeffery Bowen who died just yesterday in a 5-story business fire trying to rescue trapped citizens suffocated to death when he ran out of air. The only people who comment on Facebook when that happens or even stop to pay attention are people in the field like them who understand what it’s like. Police Officers, Firefighters, and EMS workers like myself get asked all the time, “Hey man my friend’s uncle’s dad who weighed 600 pounds and smoked for 30 years went into cardiac arrest and died 9 years ago. How come YOU GUYS didn’t get there sooner and miraculously bring him back to life?” Well first of all, I wasnt there, I was 16 and a sophmore in high school at the time. Second of all, he didn’t die because we didn’t bring him back to life, he died because he was morbidly obese and smoked for 30 years and his heart gave out from it and he died. Or when someone asks, “Hey my neighbors house burned down last week and my neighbor died in it and it took the fire department 10 WHOLE MINUTES to get there SO the house burned all the way to the ground. Why didn’t YOU GUYS get there sooner and IMMEDIATELY put out the fire and rescue my neighbor!?!?!? You must have just been sitting around doing nothing” Well lets see, first of all, your “ten minutes” was probably more like 8 minutes because you’re adrenalin was pumping and you STARTED filming for YouTube 5 minutes into the fire, the fire was probably called to 911 5 to 10 minutes after it started which is 4 to 9 minutes longer than it takes someone to die from breathing in just a couple breaths of super heated smoke and air. Second of all, the station right down the street didnt respond because they were on another call somewhere else. Third of all, they like ALL firefighters have been waiting a month to get a chance to fight a fire and rescue someone like your neighbor so they probably were fully geared up and out the door in less than a minute BUT they drive a 20 ton truck that goes like 60 max speed and even with lights and sirens they get held up enroute by people who are on their cell phone or have their music blaring and don’t hear or see them coming, so that adds on a couple minutes, THEN, when they finally pulled on the block of their house they didn’t see the fire hydrant located directly in front of the house because your neighbor spray painted it green to match the grass, and the next closest one wasn’t working 80 year old pipes that connect to it malfunctioned 3 days before so it took 5 MORE minutes to get even get water flowing, and by that time, the house is fully engulfed and unfortunately although we have fire RESISTANT turnout gear, it simply doesn’t allow them to stroll up in a fully engulfed house that is 1,200 degrees inside and look for occupants. But people don’t want to hear a real explanation of what goes in to a shitty call like that. All they wan’t to hear is results. Which your definition of good results is simply impossible in situations like that. But the only thing I hear from laypeople when they hear about a police officer or firefighter when they get shot in the face and murdered after just pulling someone over for speeding, or when they burn to death trying to save your house when they know you are not trapped inside, but safely standing outside filming for youtube, all I hear is silence.

    1. Wish I could say the same.

      1. All I hear is an unarmed man screaming for his Dad.

    2. “What do you want, a cookie?” It’s an emergency responder’s job to take risks to help people.

      You can’t be serious, claiming that heroic police officers and firefighters and emergency responders in general are never praised. It is far, far less likely that the truth comes out when police brutality gets swept under the rug by internal investigations than when heroic public servants risk their lives to save others.

      When public servants risk their safety for others, or lose their lives in the line of duty, the considerable weight of the state is thrown into praising them in the press. Honors are given, speeches made, collections taken up for their families. When agents of the state beat, maim, and kill regular citizens with little provocation, the great blue wall rises up and covers its own.

    3. when does chapter two come out?

      1. I meant this for Parker

  97. What amazes me is people act like buffalo being shot while the others just stard around. That guy doing the video hiding behind others didn’t help much either. That’s why they call you sheep, should be buffalo. These cops are cowards and obviously a danger to others check that one out in the psych book. They’re not suited for their job deign with the public more like a lamppost.

  98. Every one of the cops should be charged with homocide.

  99. Well, I am going to make a lot of people mad with this one, but you reap what you sow, i am sure the dad had beat a few people unjustly, done illegal searches, bullied and now it has come home to roost.

    You keep doing bad and natures law will give you a taste of your own meds. Call it Karma, God, whatever you want, but he did not clean his own house if he was not guilty of what we all know he as a cop that he really done, we see it everyday, illegal searches, filing false charges and they are protected just like the brown shirts in Nazi Germany.

    The US Government have given cops the attitude that they are special and beyond the law, and they are getting more power by the day from the courts.

    Missouri cops can now pull up over, take and search your phone, car and person without probable cause or a warrant and it was upheld by the supreme court of the state.

    There was another that just entered a house without PB and he was justified in court.

    When you give absolute power to people, they become tyrants.

  100. My god!
    I agree with Robert.

  101. it’s too cruel to him and his son

  102. The problem in these nice OC towns is that there’s not enough real crime to keep the cops occupied. (Or the cops are avoiding it.) I live in Huntington Beach and I routinely see three police cars on a single traffic stop.

  103. How disgusting, you wouldnt treat a dog that way…..All of you need the same beating you gave that man….so your families can feel the pain that his family is feeling…Your gross and not human go back to the rock you all climbed out from. All officers should have to take BHC classes and learn how to deal with the mentally ill….GROSS, GROSS,GROSS officers like you make it look bad for all officers doing their jobs in the right manner


    Beatings will continue until morale improves…

  105. It is becoming a daily usual around the world, when men get empowered, the animal behaviour come out of their bodies and all they want is to show power to the mercy of defenseless citizens. The investigation mostly came out that force was neccesary, in order to subdue a person that resisted the law enforcement officers. When will it change? Only when will happen to a child of the elite, then they will do something about it. Sad outcome for a defenseless man with a medical history. Cops need to be highly educated. They deal with a variety of citizens that require special treatment in order to apply the law, not killing them; that is not an answer. Max.

  106. They should be hung by their necks until dead in a town square. This is why they want to take our guns away so they can beat us into submission. I under one of these rogue cops got administrative suspension which means full pay while he sits on his overweight behind and suck tax dollars out of us – they should all be in jail awaiting arraignment with the rest of the murderers and rapists

  107. Let’s let the dad and 10 of his friends beat the living s*** out of each of those officers.

  108. My whole family are police officers.The man did act up or they would not have hit him.People just dont understand how violent people who live off the street can get.It is what it is!

  109. Where was his dad.Of course he came later but where was he when his son needed help?

  110. Where was his dad.Of course he came later but where was he when his son needed help?

  111. Video – OCTA Bus Witnesses of Kelly Thomas Beating by Fullerton PD –…

  112. This is one of the saddest things I’ve ever heard. There is so much violence and hatred in our society, fomented by “fear of THE OTHER: fear of immigrants and those on welfare.

    this hatred is being promoted by our extreme right wing news and the new hatred of those in need.

    My younger brother, who has passed away, was also beaten unconscious when my father died. He was at a gas station and didn’t have enough money to pay for the gas, and was flippant with the officers in Denver. He lost his spleen. God Bless you Paul.

    God Bless this man Kelly Tomas and his father and mother and family.

    Please God bless our world. Help and love one another. That’s all that matters.

    Love one another. We must stop this hatred.

  113. The police who did this to Kelly Thomas must pay.
    Justice must be served.
    This was a horrible beating and there is no way to justify it.
    Even if Thomas was fighting with the police, there is no excuse for this.
    The man was homeless and the police knew who he was.
    There were six of them and he was alone.
    No wonder why so many people are afraid of police.
    People need to rise up against the nonsense that is going on in this country today.

    George Vreeland Hill

  114. i dont understand why anyone regardless if they were cops or not beating an individual wether they are homeless or not even homeless. IT WAS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR – for someone to do that especially would think we are being protected and should be safe because we have cops around us to serve and protect people but as you know —now a days when you look at the news….YOU HEAR COPS SHOOTING HOMELESS PEOPLE, BEATING THEM UP OR JUST ANYTHING. YOU dont have to be homeless to be in this situation. Its really sad and upsetting what they did to this person and i dont know this person at all and i am so upset seeing the picture. One individual whom i dont even wanna call homeless gets beaten up to death from several cops when it all it takes is one or two people to arrest him . TRUE AND YES ITS TRUE –COPS HAVE REASONS TO ARREST ANYONE BECAUSE THATS THEIR JOB AND THEIR JOB IS RISKY CAUSE THEY HAVE TO PROTECT PEOPLE. But come on now—-one man gets BEAT UP for whatever reason when he wasnt even fighting at all.
    Regardless if he was homeless or not. IT DIDNT have to take this far to have someone end up dead when they couldve just arrest him without beaten him up.
    I NEVER REALLY PAID ATTENTION to news cause sometimes i dont get the whole story but this beaten up thing with this person is really upsetting and so sad..



  115. I can sum this up with one word-ATROCIOUS

  116. these policeman should be stripped of their badges and go to jail. it was murder

  117. I can sum this up with 2 word “PURE EVIL” I pray for this family!

  118. What is this world coming to when your own police force is crimmanls too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  119. This action is unacceptable and unjust. They should be fired with no benefits and charged with MURDER. All 6 should be charged with unwarranted use of force and brutallity. I would like to spend some time alone with them and educate them as to there loss of compassion for a fellow human being

  120. I just hope the father here receives justice for his son. This is terrible! so awful! He cannot bring back his son but he can get justice for what was done. I hope the witnesses come through and call the investigator also. I hope those behind the camera here will come forward for this man.

  121. When are the police going to get theirs. the DA needs to win this case for we the people need to be protected from our protecters. May God be with Kelly Thomas and his family

  122. I have heard that they say that this was an “accident” B.S. This kind of injuries aren’t caused by accident. It was intentional. They all deserve to get the death penalty. Cops are there to protect and serve the community, not to imprison and enslave. There needs to be a message sent to all police. WE AREN’T TAKING IT ANYMORE!!! There will be consequences!

  123. If the homeless dude’s dad cared so much about his schizophrenic son then why did he not take him in and care for him as a parent should?

  124. police officer responsible is kenton thompson

  125. And nobody does a thing to stand in the way of the brutality unfolding in front of them. Admirable.

  126. @ Cecilia Golden…My whole family are police officers as well. Every one of them are appalled by the actions of their fellow officers. What panet did you come from? It surely must not be earth. Let this happen to one of your children and you’d be upset too. But I’m willing to wager that you have no kids. People like you don’t stay in a relationship….you’re too distorted to have normal feelings.

  127. ….And they shall be his foot stool in heaven.

  128. They should line thoes cops up and beat them like they did to that unarmed man. wake up people they have a lawless mentality, we need to come againist them all any way we can, people stand up for what you believe in, justice for all, not justice for some, Police brutality is nation wide and we need to stop them any way we can this was wrong, they need to pay with there blood. Gman

  129. we are becoming a police state. these animals that did this should be tried for murder. tazing someone FIVE TIMES? my God! everyday thousands of well trained police officers subdue suspects without harming or killing them! The cops that did this need to be brought to justice!

  130. Why weren’t the propensities of these disgusting specimens of male mutations discovered before this gruesome crime? Why were they police officers? Why weren’t they convicted of first degree murder? I hope they’re both put into separate prisons each of them along with roommates known for hating cops. That just MIGHT satisfy some semblance of retribution.

  131. Its Unfortunate what happen, however, police officers deal with homeless people who their families know they are on medications but still can’t handle themselves. The city of Fullerton citizens don’t realize the community has chosen in not wanting peddlers and homeless bodies roaming in their beautiful city. Once they find out the homeless had a family and so happen to be from a descent family everyone is in an up roar and are punishing officers who everyday places their lives on line for the citizens to deal with homeless on mess or not. Still is a threat. The real issue is the father who has for years not cared and left his beloved son to be in that situation. If he would have been another nationality the citizens of Fullerton would not cared. C’mon people all of the sudden the father appears knowing his sons violent and uncontrollable behavior could have physically hurt not only the officers but himself and citizens. I don’t understand why people believe when approaching someone unpredictable want police officers to approach them with flowers and their guard down. My advice to Fullerton police is let the citizens of Fullerton deal with unpredictable people even homeless psychotic, imbalance, on meds. Work a psych hospital. The police officers approach may not have been to citizens liking. But let see when ur citizens are robbed, beaten, homes broken into, hmm let’s not use anger. We all have been guilty in not talking to a homeless person right, or give him money, etc. I guess it’s just easier for the father to blame others and not himself. The father should also be on trial and ashamed along with the citizens of the city of Fullerton! I’m even guilty of having family in not so glorious standards. But I am not going to blame officers for doing their job. Wether if it’s aggressive they need to people are very violent now and days. They are also a father, brother, uncle, a son, etc. If the father was soo concern of his son who had been homeless and seved with a restraining order due to his violence, he is responsible for even having knowledge of knowing his son had many prior violent behavior and roaming into the streets putting socities safety in harms way. A person is smart to understand the facts but a group in our society and a jury become dumb and unreasonable to see the facts!

  132. Dr Brian Neil Talarico North Bay Has been convicted of child molestation, an
    possession of child pornography on his computer. Sexually molesting a young boy.
    He had prior convictions for child molestation in 1990 and 2001. After his
    parole in 2006. Dr. Talarico Brian. Works for north east mental health centre,
    despite his background, and numerous complaints against him of abuse, fraud,
    negligence, and imprisonment. Address: North East Mental Health Centre
    North Bay Campus Highway 11 North North Bay Ontario P1B 8L1, and Now Works for Act 2,
    North Bay.

  133. For over 20 years an organization in ohio has been researching and using an imaging and tracking radar system that can send and detect sound and other frequencies. the operators of this system can talk to someone without other people hearing and they can hear any response. it can tell each person apart and remembers them. it was being used before haarp or gwen were finished. This technology has been kept secret from the public, only a small group of people, including police and doctors knew about it. it has grown. as of 2012 nearly all police, firefighters and medical professionals in columbus, ohio are aware of it. a network of professionals, business owners and most cops in the rest of the state along with atleast part indiana are also aware. some doctors and nurses are in fear for their own safety and that of their families while the police and mental health professionals seem to have been advanced to their position because of their willingness to work with this organization. read china was one of three visits to this site on the first day. the other two were from arizona. the first day of posting someone in china typed into their computer. who told china? the second day there were 11 visits from china, 7 from japan, 2 from luxembourg. in the first 7 days there were visits from from 10 countries. all typed in. after 39 days, 35 countries. most of them non english speaking countries. all concerned about whats happening in columbus, ohio.

    china – israel ? luxembourg- republic of korea ? germany ? russian federation ? austria ? romania ? ukraine ? georgia – japan ? united arab emirates ? slovenia ? slovakia ? ethiopia ? el salvador ? portugal ? sweden ? phillipines ? new zealand ? latvia ? switzerland ? france ? netherlands ? austrailia ? india ? hong kong ? united states ? equador ? canada ? united kingdom ? panama ? jamaica ? malaysia ? norway

    by 1/15 one visit italy, poland, republic of moldova.

    1/17 one visit ? dominica

    1/18 one visit ? namibia, finland, belgium

    1/19 one visit ? spain, cambodia

    1/20 one visit ? turkey, south africa

    1/22 one visit- argentina

    1/26 one visit ? czech republic

    1/29 one visit ? ireland, brazil

    1/21 one visit ? tel aviv israel

    1/23 one visit ? ft huachuca, arizona

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