Reason.tv: The Killing of Allen Kephart - How the police lost the trust of a law-and-order town

On May 10, 43-year old Allen Kephart died after being tased multiple times by three San Bernardino, California sheriff's deputies during a routine traffic stop.

Kephart, a quiet and well-liked member of the tight-knit mountain community around Lake Arrowhead, allegedly ran a stop sign and became "combative" during the stop.

But local residents say this claim is wildly out of character for Kephart, who had no police record and no history of aggressive behavior or even temper. Kephart's death has galvanized the local community around a problem they say is getting worse: aggressive policing and the souring of relations between civilians and local law enforcement.

While an FBI review of Kephart's death proceeds, the people of Lake Arrowhead are demanding a change in the climate of fear that has grown up in this quiet rural community. Whatever the final outcome of that investigation, the case of Allen Kephart is a case study in how law enforcement can lose the support even of citizens who believe strongly in law and order.

Producers: Tim Cavanaugh and Paul Detrick. Camera and editing: Paul Detrick and Alex Manning

About 7 minutes. Go to Reason.tv for downloadable versions and subscribe to Reason.tv's YouTube Channel to receive automatic notifications when new material goes live.

Comments

[Mainer]

Once an internal investigation concludes the deputies' actions were justified, we can all move along.

[P Brooks]

the souring of relations between civilians and local law enforcement.

Please don't let the pigs set the terms of the discussion. At minimum, I prefer "citizen" but I really would like to see every one of these stories framed as "the ongoing usurpation by law enforcement of the rights and freedom of the people for whom they work and who pay their fucking salaries."

[hmm]

That bothered me as well. Local law enforcement are civilians, the problem exists between two groups of civilians. One group happens to be under the employment of government and recently has been operating as a protected class.

[Mainer]

Using "civilians" makes perfect sense when you understand we are at war. Unfortunately, most private citizens don't understand the import to law enforcement when they support the WoD.

[R C Dean]

Thank you. The use of "civilians" as distinct from law enforcement is a pet peeve of mine.

[cynical]

It is a de facto, not a de jure term.

[Road_Kill]

Agreed!

[?]

Cue the Balkobots.

[WTF]

Cue the cop-suckers

[Episiarch]

You're a real scumbag. Congratulations.

[?]

You're a little late. Try to keep up.
Also: Do. Not. Respond. To. The. Troll.

[T]

I have to agree with P Brooks here. Cops are civilians. The idea that cops have special privileges and are a seperate class should be abhorrent in a free society.

Of course, since we don't have one of those anymore, I guess it doesn't matter.

[Fist of Etiquette]

That "law and order" citizens do not support LEO acting unlawfully is not incongruous.

[Cytotoxic]

My reaction as well.

[Restoras]

Nice pension you got there, it'd be ashame if anything happened to it.

[Mainer]

Who's going to touch a cop's pension ?
Some "civilian" ?

[Jarmey Fowler]

Yo! it was May 10th NOT May 11 FYI...

[NL_]

Seems to me those towns need to look into getting together and starting their own police force to opt out of county enforcement services.

If the area is low-crime they shouldn't need an especially large force, despite the broad area needing cover. And they can reap cost savings by focusing their enforcement on actual criminals rather than innocent motorists.

[dunphy]

small towns are free to do this. where i live, many towns contract with the sheriff for police services. several have disbanded their own police dept's because they prefer being policed by sheriff's. others have dropped the sheriff and formed their own PD (federal way). y'know, the free market exists here too. that's supposed to be a good thing, nu? any municipality can form their own PD *or* contract with the sheriff or even another municipality for police services. iirc, carnation (a small town) just recently started contracting with Duvall (another town) to provide police services.

market forces - something i support

[fyngyrz]

Someone needs to find the twerp(s) that certified tasers as "ok" to use in any situation less serious than those which require use of lethal force, and tase said certifier(s) -- until they die. Just to make the point, you know. Tasers are a lethal weapon just as much as a gun is, only with more randomization for added entertainment value.

[dunphy]

complete and utter rubbish. i've been tased twice. i volunteered. as have thousands of law enforcement agents, journalists, etc. NONE have died.

if that's lethal force, it's pretty frigging ineffective.

[Crackers Boy]

Did the Tase-er know you were a cop? If so, then that doesn't count. Go get Tased by an officer who thinks you are "a civilian".

Please.

CB

[dunphy]

actually, i was tased with the most effective/gnarly way to tase - which is a large distance between the probes (the longer the distance, the more neuromuscular disruption) - one probe in the right shoulder - one in the left calf).

please tell me how cops can make the probes EXRA effective for perps vs. cops/journalist, etc.

[Tim]

"probes" heh.

[?]

And there used to be a car called a Probe. Ain't that some shit?

[dunphy]

it's that darn lattice of coincidence again!

[Crackers Boy]

Uh... hold the trigger a little longer?

CB

[Dave]

Or tase the victim a minimum of five times?

[ML]

Allen Kephart died - in this incident. Or doesn't that count since he wasn't a cop?

Google taser deaths. You'll need to set aside several days to read them all, I think.

[dunphy]

correlation =/= causation. many die after tasing. many others die after wrestling with cops due to a host of factors i have mentioned several times. in brief, prolonged physical struggles, fight or flight syndrome(adrenaline dump), hyperthermia, bla bla bla

i once had a guy stop breathing on me after a less than 5 minute wrestling match to get him in handcuffs. wrestling doesn't cause death any more than tasers do , although people have died and will die in struggles that include wrestling for roughly the same reasons.

[Tim]

Taser shmaser, the guy rolls a stop sign and the next thing you know he's dead. THAT'S the problem.

[dunphy]

right. because NOTHING happened in between (rolls eyes). if the cops' use of the taser was unjustified, then they should be punished.

he wasn't tased because he rolled a stop sign and you know darn well scores of thousands of people roll a stop sign in view of police and are issued warnings or tickets w/o a tasing.

if his resistance rose to the level where tasing was justified (and there is a 9th circuit court case that establishes the level of resistance required in the 9th circuit in order to justify a tase ), then it was justified.

if not, then the cops should be punished.

[Tim]

I know what you're saying, and you say it well, but it only infuriates people because it's also lawyer speak.
Normal peeps see stop sign = $50 ticket, not sudden death.

Jargon goes well in the courtroom I guess but again, normal people (not that there are any here) do not want to hear about continuum of force, baton strikes and probes.

[dunphy]

normal people also see that when you fight/resist police (or anybody else) bad shit can happen - with or WITHOUT tasers.

like i said, i had a guy resist arrest on a minor misdemeanor warrant. after 5 minutes of wrestling he had stopped breathing. he very well could have died.

did his minor warrant justify death? of course not. but it wasn't the proximate cause. his RESISTING was (not to mention poor health, etc.)

if a cop makes a traffic stop , the VAST majority involve no use of force. a small minority involve some sort of force when there is resistance.

any time there is force of ANY sort, there is a danger.

heck, there was a case here a few years back on a minor infraction, guy refused to stay in his car, officer grabbed the guy's arm to detain him, suspect broke away and ran --- into the street and got hit and killed by a car.

did he deserve that? of course not

we should operate under rule of law and use of force continuums and constitutional protections. if the cops acted within those things, than the motorist's death is still tragic, but not unjustified.

also, the VAST majority of incidents where people resistarrest/get combative etc. on traffic stops result in minor to no injuries for cops AND suspects. a tiny percentage result in serious injuries or death

this shit has always happened and will always happen until there is some kind of foolproof use of force developed that instantly gains compliance with no risk to officer or suspect.

[Colonel_Angus]

STOP RESISTING! Your minor misdemeanor warrant requires me to use any force I approve of to obtain your compliance!

[RADIOACTIVE]

so...resistence is futile? just asking or is that a tasering offence?

[reason readin female]

From what I gathered in the video, his "resistance" was the fact that he kept driving after the officer turned on his lights. He didn't immediately stop, and when he did he was thrown to the ground. He then tried to turn over onto his back to get his face off of the pavement. Probably a natural reaction, but cops never know what the guy may be thinking.

Which brings me to the obvious question:

Why do the cops feel the need to assume every person is violent? Every poll out there shows time and again that the vast majority of American citizens are law abiding.

[Phlogistan]

"Why do the cops feel the need to assume every person is violent?"

Because every person actually is violence incarnate. But we have free will, and the triggers for violent reactions are often masked.

[Dave]

I presume Allen Kephart continued driving to a populated area before stopping, because he was taking the advice commonly given by law enforcement to do so to avoid being fooled by criminals pretending to be police. Unfortunately, the criminals pretending to be police killed him anyway.

[Pixie Lott]

It's eye-opening to see a sh!tbag start sharing. I'm sure you're just like Percy in The Green Mile. Let's hear some of your real stories about shoving a mouthy grandma onto the floor and then pocketing some of her valuables while the paramedics take her away.

[RADIOACTIVE]

Is it rubbish if you die? Just asking

[Gary]

I just Google taser deaths.Shit!over1,490,000 hits

[Phlogistan]

Amnesty International's latest report on Tasers, titled, "USA: Less Than Lethal?" links 334 deaths to Taser use between the years 2001 and 2008.

Much less then feared.

[Colonel_Angus]

Did everyone who has ever been tased volunteer to be tased (and have the opportunity to brace themselves for the experience), with immediate medical attention available if anything went wrong? Do those cops doing the tasing have any consideration for the possibility of cardiovascular conditions or seizures? Is tasing someone with three tasers also guaranteed non-lethal? Would you have volunteered yourself in any of these situations, dumbphy?

[Mongo]

I always assumed tasers were more preferable to guns.

Anyway, we were taught - in art school, no less - to never resist arrest as the cops will probably injure you and you will have to deal with the resisting-arrest charge on top of the injury, whether they had grounds to arrest you or not.

[dunphy]

tasers are not a gun substitute. they are MUCH lower on the use of force continuum.

the idea that they are preferable to guns must be taken with the understanding that they are only to be used in a deadly force situation when the tasing officer has other officers providing deadly force cover AND has sufficient cover etc. so he can apply it effectively and safely.

tasers aren't supposed to be, and aren't a gun substitute. tasers are (in most use of force continuums) lower than a baton strike.

[Tim]

If the batons go on strike then you have to use the taser?

[dunphy]

our batons are public employees and cannot strike. ask reagan

[??Calvin Coolidge]

Calvin Coolidge

[?]

Cop jargon is awesome:

"Use of force continuum" = Shooting a guy

[dunphy]

evasion and misunderstanding is awesome too. and you got lots of it

[?]

Why do I got lots of evasion? What does that mean?

[Tim]

You don't even have a nic.

[Bree]

Whichever one of you rancid smelling pigs was watching me on the Martin Short show, bugger off already.

[?]

That seems like a really sensible thing to teach in art school, since, you know, artists are walking around stoned all the time.

No offense.

[dunphy]

one should never resist arrest for the simple reason that it's illegal and stupid and risks injury to yourself and the cops. the place to resist an arrest is the court system, not the streets

[Tim]

I believe we teach officers at the academy level that there has to be a high threshold before initiating a stop because it's pretty hard to justify a dead guy by saying he ran a stop sign.

[dunphy]

and i believe that running a stop sign is (in every jurisdiction i am aware of ) sufficient cause to make a traffic stop. it is of course not what justifies tasing a person, which would require (under the 9th circuit) at least active (not passive) resistance of some sort, etc.

for example, if a guy simply sits in his car, refuses to sign a citation (not required in my jurisdiction to sign but is in some) that would not justify a tase.

he has to engage in active resistance, combative behavior or some other cause that meets the threshold required.

i've carried a taser over 5 yrs and never tased anybody. i've drawn it and threatened to tase a few times (worked in those instances) and been on other cases where people tased (last one was where a guy kicked an officer in the shin).

[Tim]

I'm not calling names, I agree. Just pointing out that at the end of the day this man is dead and every single routine decision those officers made is under scrutiny.
I screw up my job, I get grief, maybe some anger. You screw up yours you get all that, plus maybe death, maiming, an indictment or a media circus.

[dunphy]

absolutely. and if the officers followed the law, the incident is tragic but not their fault. if they didn't follow the law, then they should be punished commensurate with what they did

it is impossible to measure the # of lives saved by taser (where if the taser hadn't been used a subsequent escalation would have resulted in deadly force etc.) but based on the fact that a # of cities that adopted tasers found

1) suspect injuries declined
2) officer injuries declined
3) in custody deaths declined

that is something to consider.
http://www.nij.gov/journals/267/use-of-force.htm
"To see if the introduction of CEDs was associated with changes in injury rates in individual police departments, the researchers reviewed monthly reports of use-of-force incidents and of officer and suspect injuries from police departments in Austin, Texas, and Orlando, Fla., both before and after the introduction of CEDs.[3]

See "Study Findings: Factors Affecting Injuries."
The Orlando data included 4,222 incidents from 1998 to 2006 (CED use began in February 2003). The Austin data included 6,596 incidents from 2002 to 2006 (CED use was phased in beginning in 2003 and was completed in June 2004). Use-of-force cases increased in Orlando after CEDs were deployed, but they dropped after full deployment of CEDs in Austin. A large drop in injury rates for suspects and officers alike occurred in both cities following CED introduction.

In Orlando, the suspect injury rate dropped by more than 50 percent compared to the pre-Taser injury rate. In Austin, suspect injury rates were 30 percent lower after fullscale Taser deployment.

In Orlando, the decline in officer injury rates was even greater than for suspects, with the average monthly rate dropping by 60 percent after Taser adoption. In Austin, officer injuries dropped by 25 percent. "

[Phlogistan]

Dunphy I applaud the efforts for reducing death and injury.
But I am very curious about a few things. Is using a tazer considered a violent act? And what are the statistics of officers using violence to subdue suspects? Does the availability of tazers increase officers use of violence in apprehending suspects?

Yeah the questions are a bit leading. BUT if my impression of increasingly neolithic barbarous behaviour in law enforcement officers is wrong, I want to know.

[Mercurus]

"And what are the statistics of officers using violence to subdue suspects?" Try 100%. Force is the only lawful tool police have to do their job. We give them the right to use it...to protect us...from criminals.

[Dave]

I agree. I don't oppose the use of tasers, I oppose bullies who use a taser when there's no good reason.

Alternately, it may be these cops are simply such cowards that they interpret anything less than complete subservience as an attack. Such people should not be cops.

[Mensan]

It's only illegal if the arrest is legal. Resisting unlawful arrest is self defense.

[dunphy]

not under the penal codes of most states. iirc, in MA about 20 yrs back it was legal to resist an unlawful arrest. that is no longer true.

at this point, i am not aware of any state where it is legal to resist an unlawful arrest. the place to resist an unlawful arrest is COURT

also note that one of the reasons for this is the arrestee is not omniscient.

i was once detained at gunpoint. i had done nothing wrong. was i ok to resist that arrest (not custodial, but definitely a seizure)?

no.

it turned out that i was a white guy driving a green van in the area of a robbery that had just occurred by a white guy who had jumped into a similar green van

it took a few minutes for me to get released. and that's fine

it was certainly reasonable *under terry v. ohio* but i had no reason to know it was.

here's a tip. don't resist arrest. hth

[Mensan]

According to the SCOTUS it is. Numerous court cases have held that an unlawful arrest is an assault and battery, and resisting is self defense.

[dunphy]

point to the cases. an unlawful arrest does not justify resisting arrest, assuming reasonable force is used. that's been established over and over again

excessive force can sometimes justify resistance, but that's tangential to whether the underlying arrest is lawful or unlawful

[Phlogistan]

When I'm encounter an officer of the law, surviving the encounter is my first and foremost consideration.

Same as if I encounter a pack of slavering hyena's.

[Mensan]

Here's one. There are plenty of other ones, but I don't have time to look them up right now. As for the Supreme Court; Bad Elk v. United States. It's from like 1900, but as far as I know the SCOTUS hasn't reversed their position.

[dunphy is retarded, er, a cop]

Does it concern you that you're too stupid and ignorant of case law to realize you're wrong about citizen's right to resist unlawful assault by cops? It should, considering you're supposed to, you know, actually have some fucking idea what the fuck your moron ass is doing. In all honesty, I would like to wish dick cancer on you and every male member of your family.

[Mercurus]

Don't confuse legal with moral. There are laws out there that are immoral. The right to self-defense isn't surrendered by the citizens when they employ a police force, its shared. Resisting an immoral arrest - though it may get you killed - is a justifiable act of self-defense.

[overgraduate]

Exactly. dunphy can preach all he wants about the "legality" of the cops' actions, but given that NO ONE has the moral authority to aggress against another, resisting arrest is almost always justified (though rarely intelligent).

[dunphy is retarded, er, a cop]

"not under the penal codes of most states. iirc"

You do not rc

[blogimi Dei]

What I am going to say here is just as good as Dummph:
FUCK YOU PIG.

[Dave]

Never resist cops - unless it has come to the point when that is your safest choice. If it has come to that point, don't wait for them to come to you. It's time for a firing.

[Danny]

That's too bad. But look: what we really need for liberty is a capital gains tax cut. Priorities, people. Priorities.

[Tim]

What about the deficit? Typical Danny crap...

[Danny]

Tim, everybody knows that the way to trim the deficit is with a capital gains tax cut that will grow the economy by giving the job-creators incentives. Also, it will shrink the government. I mean, somehow, it will do both things at once.

Also, a capital gains tax cut will cure rabies and malaria. Probably. You can't disprove it.

[Tim]

Look fuckstick, unless we do it for the children, the future won't be won at all, you kinetic mental action case.

[Danny]

Yes, I almost forgot. We must cut the capital gains tax for the children.

[American Patriot]

I'd hate to form a harsh opinion without knowing the case first hand, but government (in this case police) has been becoming more and more heavy handed as years go by. However, it is hard not to have some sympathy for cops as they have to deal with more and more vicious criminals.

[dunphy]

i'm not aware that cops have become more heavy handed (quite the opposite) and fwiw, violent crime has been plunging. i see no evidence we are facing more and more vicious criminals. quite the opposite

(certain gang infested hellholes excepted)

[Phlogistan]

"I'm not aware that cops have become more heavy handed" Ok- How bout Law Enforcement? Not just Cops?

I'm becoming more and more aware of vicious officers. Their not vicious criminals till their convicted right?

And I didnt know Valero parking lots were Gang Infested Hell Holes. Must be all the Officers chilling there.

[P Brooks]

Fearless Fosdick swoops in armed with another grab bag of "personal anecdotes" which plainly prove this could never have happened (but if it did, that fucking scumbag civilian troublemaker deserved it).

Baboon-troop authoritarian sez:

STOP RESISTING

[dunphy]

you're a liar.

i didn't say it could never have happened

1) can people die after being tased? of course. just like they can die after a wrestling match.
2) were the officers justified in their use of the taser? i'm agnostic. not enough facts. i've seen plenty of incidents where i have come to the conclusion that cops were not justified. this incident... i have no idea either way

[dunphy is retarded, er, a cop]

"you're a liar."

So are you.

[dunphy is retarded, er, a cop]

"i didn't say it could never have happened"

If you weren't so incredibly fucking stupid, you'd realize he never said you said that. Die now.

[Mensan]

Here's a case where a taser may have been a better option.

[Ray Ray]

Yeah, love it how they felt the need to keep his mom from him and shoot him because, get this, he was suicidal.

[Mash]

Is Dunphy a troll or actually serious?

Tasering obviously increases the risk of death.
Use it stop violence, a crime in progress etc
not because they had to waddle out of their cars.
three of them, tasering someone numerous times?
Were they bored?

[Phlogistan]

Dunphy appears to me to be of a very serious and sober character on topics concerning law enforcement.

Would I trust him at a traffic stop? No.

[dunphy]

yawn. in 20 yrs i've never had a civilian complaint that rose above "didn't adequately emphasize with the RP's complaint"... considering it was a non-criminal (civil matter) and she clearly wanted me to feel her pain etc. whereas I needed to get back to work... i can live with that.

you have nothing to fear from me on a traffic stop. like i said, i've carried one for 5 yrs and haven't even FIRED it.

otoh, if you attack me i will take you down hard. as is justified. i'm a nationally ranked strength athlete, and i find that command presence (physical etc.), politeness and treating people with respect means you don't usually have to use force.

[dunphy]

ugh... "EMPATHIZE" not "emphasize"

[Phlogistan]

Sir I respectfully submit that your response in no way works to gain my trust.

I have in no way shape or form behaved in a threatening manner toward you.

It is not your arsenal, your command presence, or your ranking which gives me pause.

I would react the same no matter what your profession.

Good day Sir

[Mercurus]

The article is about how the police has lost the trust of a community...something you appear unconcerned about. Losing the public trust means that those of us who support the police might eventually stop.

Would that make your job easier or harder?

[Dave]

Good point. I know a little old lady who used to work for the FBI and thinks J. Edgar Hoover was a fine and decent man, and she thinks that law enforcement is getting out of hand. (Most of the individual cops, though, she likes.)

[RADIOACTIVE]

I'm not sure I believe the results of any PDs internal investigation...or anyones internal investigation...you need a third party...oh and please don't send SWAT to my house cause I live in the same state as a suspected drug dealer, I wouldn't want my dog shot. When you view the world through cop colored glasses everything looks ok if a cop does it.

[dunphy is retarded, er, a cop]

"yawn. in 20 yrs i've never had a civilian complaint that rose above..."

Clearly you're under the mistaken impression that the silence you morons afford each other in accordance with your lawbreaking will impress anyone other than another moron LEO.

[Mensan]

Nah, dunphy's no troll; he's a regular. Most of the time he makes very valid arguments, and often I agree with him. He just refuses to believe that tasers could ever be lethal. I suspect he owns stock in TASER?.

[dunphy]

i didn't say that tasers couldn't ever be lethal. almost ANY use of physical force can be lethal. a punch in the nose. a baton strike to the leg. heck, even a good SCARE has resulted in heart attacks.

regardless, saying "boo" is correctly not considered deadly force, nor is a baton strike to the leg.

[dunphy is retarded, er, a cop]

"complete and utter rubbish. i've been tased twice. i volunteered. as have thousands of law enforcement agents, journalists, etc. NONE have died.

if that's lethal force, it's pretty frigging ineffective."

Yes, you disgusting fucking pig, you DID.

[dunphy]

taser does NOT obviously increase the risk of death. and again, from the stats i've seen it does the OPPOSITE - as well as decrease the risk of injury. i already posted one study.

imo, and i say this as a use of force instructor - no person who does not present a deadly threat, should be tased more than 3 times. if you can't accomplish the goal in 3 tases -use another force method.

[jcalton]

Why don't you tell us where you get your "facts?"
I guarantee you that 100% of them come from Law Enforcement and Taser Int'l.

[Mash]

So tasering this very overweight man repeatedly, is safer than not tasering him?

They should only have done it to him twice?

They should only use them to prevent something worse from happening.
You don't seem to agree with that?

[dunphy is retarded, er, a cop]

"aser does NOT obviously increase the risk of death. and again, from the stats i've seen"

You;re a proven liar, no one cares.

[Mike]

How many of these officers have returned from active duty? I remember years in Redlands, post Vietnam, where police officers had been hired who were vets from that period. They used to act like gunslingers in a posse. And with our vets' benefits and post traumatic injuries (mental & physical) not being adequately covered, we are getting a lot of damaged people in positions of trust. When they are threatened with wrongful death actions, they form themselves into a protective unit to protect their back. We become the enemy. Our government is failing its "citizens" and we need to step up to the plate and deal with it without rhetoric and agendas (all citizens!).

[dunphy]

you read bloom county don't you?

[Reality Chick]

Here is a link to my list of the 665 North Americans who have died after they were tasered:

http://bit.ly/mZn13

Allen Kephart was #660.

[KW6]

This death is being investigated by the same agency that LOST the STEEL DOOR that would have shown who shot first when the BATF assaulted the Branch Davidians.

FBI = Friendly But Ignorant

[dunphy]

i prefer "Famous But Incompetent" or "Fan Belt Inspectors"

[Zombie Killer]

There is nothing worse than a staty who gets a chubby talking about regs and how great and voluntary our justice system is. Go somewheres else while ya drink another bottle of Jack & keep telling yourself Jesus was executed by the book and that you'll never reap as you sow. When the Jack stops working, use heroin and finally buffalo bore to get some sleep.

[blogimi Dei]

humanity=how does it fucking work

[Aimeng]

While an FBI review of Kephart's death proceeds, the people of Lake Arrowhead are demanding a change in the climate of fear Crystal Jewelry that has grown up in this quiet rural community.

[christian louboutins]

that has grown up in this quiet rural community.

[jcalton]

"Didn't provide information on citizen complaints."

Um, why not? They refused to obey the Sunshine Law and we're not reporting on that?

Or did the press/Reason just call them up for this piece and they haven't had time to fulfill that request? I realize they always stall (and overcharge) on these things, but even on a good day it does take the bureaucracy awhile to fulfill FOIA-type requests.

[Apogee]

Of course there's no response to public information requests.

It's all top sekret national security stuff, you see...

Without access to any of the autopsy information or dash cam footage (which is paid for by public funds), how exactly can anyone ascertain whether the guy had his rights violated.

It's not simply these types of actions that have eroded public trust in LE, it's the continued coverups of what should be publicly available information that seals the distrust.

And it should.

[jacob]

Anyone else click on this link hoping to see one of Gregoo's dumbass comments? Let me paraphrase for you -

"How could you liberaltarians not like cops? For liberty to work we need strong law enforcement. Sure, a few folks might die in the process, but shit happens."

[Mark]

Not much real information on which to form an opinion of this incident.

[roguepatriot]

"Didn't you see that stop sign right there? You in a heap of trouble, boy!"

[nike shoes UK]

is good

[Johnny Gee]

The biggest problem with that is courts predominantly don't see anything done by the police as being any problem at all.

[Johnny Gee]

The biggest problem with that is courts predominantly don't see anything done by the police as being any problem at all.

[Johnny Gee]

Nationally it is being reported that he did not run a stop sign. Nationally they are saying that he beeped his horn at a patrol car that then turned aroung and pulled him over.

[murmur55]

I read the autopsy report. This is probably a restraint death of an obese individual held in the prone position, +/- Taser effects.

Google: YouTube - Positional asphyxia 2003

#DOJ statement in 1995 on avoidable death in restraint or custody: Positional Asphyxia and Sudden Death http://bit.ly/fWyJKg

Asphyxial Death During Prone Restraint Revisited: 21 Cases http://bit.ly/p86G5F

Prone restraint?, if used at all, should last only seconds. There should NOT be a "struggle" on the ground. People die very quickly in this position.

Negligent homicide by the police. That's how you would be charged for a similar event. The police have a higher degree of responsibility.

[murmur55]

State troopers kneeling on man's back when he was handcuffed asphyxiated him to death, and Wyoming must pay half a million dollars in compensation. http://bit.ly/q0Euds