So far the key question in the constitutional challenge against the individual mandate has been whether or not the Commerce Clause gives Congress the power to regulate inactivity. But early in his ruling, Judge Boyce Martin actually argues that the distinction between activity and inactivity doesn't matter, because "the text of the Commerce Clause does not acknowledge a constitutional distinction between activity and inactivity, and neither does the Supreme Court."
Yet elsewhere, Martin explains that the administration is attempting to justify the mandate's constitutionality under the Supreme Court's longstanding "substantial effects" doctrine. As Jacob Sullum has detailed elsewhere, there are many problems with the substantial effects doctrine. But let's ignore those problems for a moment and look at what the doctrine actually says.
As Martin himself points out, that doctrine holds that Congress can regulate "those activities having a substantial relation to interstate commerce, . . . i.e., those activities that substantially affect interstate commerce." It is a doctrine, in other words, that specifically refers to activities and only to activities. Martin acknowledges as much noting that the judicial task at hand is "to consider whether the provision falls within Congress's power to regulate activities that substantially affect interstate commerce." [Emphasis added throughout.]
Is the specific word important? To answer that question, we might refer to another passage from Martin's opinion. In declining to accept the administration's argument that the mandate is constitutional because the penalty it imposes for not purchasing insurance is merely a tax, Martin notes that Congress specifically referred to the penalty for failing to comply as a penalty rather than a tax. "Distinct words have distinct meanings," he writes. It's worth pointing out, then, that the distinct word that both Martin and the Supreme Court use to explain the substantial effects doctrine is "activities."
Perhaps this is a meaningless quibble, though. Despite his declared belief that the distinction between activity and inactivity doesn't matter, Martin goes on to argue at length that not purchasing insurance is nonetheless still a form of activity. "Far from regulating inactivity," he writes, "the provision regulates active participation in the health care market."
In his concurrence, Judge Jeffrey Sutton seems to take the activity/inactivity distinction seriously, at least at first. He writes that "the [Commerce] Clause permits the legislature to 'regulate' commerce, not to create it. Put another way, it empowers Congress to regulate economic 'activities' and 'actions,' not inaction." But despite accepting the importance of the distinction, Sutton voted to uphold the mandate anyway.
So how did both Sutton and Martin arrive at the conclusion that the non-purchase of health insurance was an activity over which Congress has regulatory authority?
According to both judges, failing to purchase health insurance is still an economic activity, and therefore subject to Congressional mandates, because the mandate simply regulates the time at which an individual will inevitably pay for health care.
Here's Martin (quotes have been stripped of legal references):
The Act considered as a whole makes clear that Congress was concerned that individuals maintain minimum coverage not as an end in itself, but because of the economic implications on the broader health care market. Virtually everyone participates in the market for health care delivery, and they finance these services by either purchasing an insurance policy or by self-insuring….Thus, set against the Act's broader statutory scheme, the minimum coverage provision reveals itself as a regulation on the activity of participating in the national market for health care delivery, and specifically the activity of self-insuring for the cost of these services.
…By requiring individuals to maintain a certain level of coverage, the minimum coverage provision regulates the financing of health care services, and specifically the practice of self-insuring for the cost of care. The activity of foregoing health insurance and attempting to cover the cost of health care needs by self-insuring is no less economic than the activity of purchasing an insurance plan. Thus, the financing of health care services, and specifically the practice of self-insuring, is economic activity.
Here's Sutton:
What then of paying for health care or insuring to pay for it? These are two sides of the same coin. Life is filled with risks, and one of them is not having the money to pay for food, shelter, transportation and health care when you need it. Unlike most of these expenses, however, the costs of health care can vary substantially from year to year. The individual can count on incurring some healthcare costs each year (e.g., an annual check-up, insulin for a diabetic) but cannot predict others (e.g., a cancer diagnosis, a serious accident). That is why most Americans manage the risk of not having the assets to pay for health care by purchasing medical insurance.
…The basic policy idea, for better or worse (and courts must assume better), is to compel individuals with the requisite income to pay now rather than later for health care. Faced with $43 billion in uncompensated care, Congress reasonably could require all covered individuals to pay for health care now so that money would be available later to pay for all care as the need arises. Call this mandate what you will—an affront to individual autonomy or an imperative of national health care—it meets the requirement of regulating activities that substantially affect interstate commerce.
The definition of economic activity here has been stretched to the point of meaninglessness. By this definition, the non-purchase of health insurance is an economic activity regardless of whether one chose to do it, regardless of whether one made other plans, regardless of whether one did, said, or thought anything—or nothing—at all. There's no action required, no intention or choice; it applies to everyone solely by virtue of their existence. It is a strange sort of activity that does not require one to do anything at all in order to participate.
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Virtually everyone participates in the market for health care delivery, and they finance these services by either purchasing an insurance policy or by self-insuring..
Which means some don't, so the mandate is creating economic activity rather than regulating it.
That jumped out at me too. Because nobody can absolutely, 100%, iron-clad guarantee, that every, single, solitary American will purchase health care every year, or even in their life time. There are many circumstances in which a person would not.
So for those people, you are forcing them to engage in commerce in which they would not normally be engaged.
Same thing here. Real men don't go to the doctor every six months to get checked up on unless they know there's something wrong; that's for the girls to do.
Have you been injured in the last decade? The act of healing yourself through purely biological means has a substantial effect on the delivery of healthcare and thus, interstate commerce. After all, if you had been weak enough to succumb to infection, you would have needed a doctor's intervention...
...so the mandate is creating economic activity rather than regulating it.
Exactly. I said it before and I'll say it again:
Compelling an individual to perform some activity is not regulation of the activity. It is regulation of the individual. Congress does not have the power to regulate individuals in this sense.
Nobody took the bait?
I really thought that was a good one.
Unless it hit too close to home? Maybe that's it. I'm dealing with geeks who fuck whatever doesn't run away.
Inactivity is now activity. "Activity" can now be tossed on the pile of words made nonsense by left-wing morons, along with Voluntary, Consent, Majority, Freedom, Liberty, Rights, Commerce, Restrained, and No.
And the confusion becomes worse because this change of meaning of the words describing political ideals is not a single event but a continuous process, a technique employed consciously or unconsciously to direct the people. Gradually, as this process continues, the whole language becomes despoiled, and words become empty shells deprived of any definite meaning, as capable of denoting one thing as its opposite and used solely for the emotional associations which still adhere to them.
I wonder if we are inching (racing?) toward the day when enough citizens will say "Enough" and cast off this creaky, farcical edifice of progressivism that our republic has become, and begin anew. What a fucking joke.
If you're uninsured, the first time you go to the doctor and can't afford to pay your bill, the government will "penalize" you.
The Administration's position is that if you're uninsured, you're a "burden" to the rest of society-- because "uninsured" means you're "self pay", and everyone knows that "self pay" is a euphemism for "can't pay".
Well, I guess what I'm saying (and I'm really throwing the administration a bone here) is that at least by waiting until you've 1: gone to the doctor and 2: failed to pay your bill, that now you've engaged in this "activity" which they're all on about.
Except the administrations position is a big, fat, lie, because the REAL reason they want to force people to buy insurance, is to pay for OTHER PEOPLE's health care.
Its all too delicious, because what they are really arguing about is our old friend the wheat farmer who was deemed to be subject to the Commerce Clause even though not one grain of wheat left his farm.
He was self-sufficient for wheat. He was not engaged in "commercial" activity (as the Court freely acknoweldged at the time). Only the most expansive definition of "economic" can capture eating what grows on your own land. Its really hard to strike down ObamaCare without going all the way back and striking down the seminal case for modern Commerce Clause jurisprudence.
The Sixth Circuit opinion all but begs the Court to overturn some of its previous decisions, concluding (reluctantly) that SCOTUS has put us all in such a box with those decisions that only SCOTUS can get us out.
Here's the other thing with Wickard that pisses me off:
The farmers consumption of his own wheat was inherently limited. He can only consume (without selling) as much as his checkens can eat.
So they could have just LEFT HIM ALONE and his impact on the wheat market would have been intrinsically limited. But NO, the government had to go nickel and dime some small-time chicken farmer and make him GROW LESS WHEAT so his total wheat production (including the amount he fed his chickens) would fit into the quota.
The fact is that even if they let people grow wheat for their own consumption, it's impact on the farm program as a whole would have been intrinsically limited. There's only so much land area that any farmer has and most won't have a lot of space to grow food for their own consumption. AND they could just lower the total wheat quotas if they thought the price was falling too much.
So the federal government had ALL SORTS of tools available to manipulate that the price of wheat, but they instead chose to go after some guy growing wheat for his own consumption on his property. because they, essentially, were a bunch of socialistic idiots with no idea how economics works.
The decision in the Wickard case wasn't bad when applied to that particular case. It's the expanded interpretation when applied to other cases that has created problems.
The wheat quotas under the AAA of 1938 weren't shoved down farmers throats. The wheat quota was set yearly, and only if the wheat supply for the year was expected to be over a certain volume. Once the quota was determined by the Sec of Agriculture, those individuals subject to the quota had the option to vote against it. If 1/3 of farmers opposed the quota, it was suspended. If farmers accepted the quota, they were subsidized for not planting over a set amount.
Filburn was double dipping. He grew more than his quota of wheat, while taking a subsidy from the feds in exchange for not growing more than what he was allowed to grow.
"The Sixth Circuit opinion all but begs the Court to overturn some of its previous decisions..."
I would love to see Scalia reverse himself in Raich. Clarence Thomas would hopefully now be in the majority, instead of being the only sane one, like he was in Raich.
"because what they are really arguing about is our old friend the wheat farmer who was deemed to be subject to the Commerce Clause even though not one grain of wheat left his farm."
In this case, Filburn at least was a farmer who sold wheat at market. At issue was whether or not any wheat he grew for personal use, counted towards his quota under the Agricultural Adjustment Act.
Which itself was completely stupid. They could have just lowered his quota ... or lowered everyone's quotas to make up for the difference in total wheat production. They didn't HAVE to create this stupid precedent that growing something for person consumption on your own property is regulatable interstate commerce. There were other tools available.
New Deal cartelization of the markets was Winning The Future, 1930's style. It worked as far as they were concerned. Our asses have been declared conquered territory before we were even born.
Filburn got a subsidy from the feds in exchange for only growing a set amount of wheat. He didn't live up to his end of the deal, and was fined. Filburn
Farmers could opt out of the quota, and the subsidies that came with the quota. The Sec. of Agriculture determined the quota at the beginning of the year. If 1/3 of the farmers who would be subject to the act, voted in opposition to the quota, it was suspended.
Interesting, that makes it even more clear that Filburn took some positive act to enter into, not just a market, but a contractual relationship with the government.
In which case, why the fuck is Wickard v. Filburn even considered to have any precedent-setting power regarding the "substantial effects" doctrine at all?
Eventually the correct response to this is to go limp (figuratively) and do nothing. Produce nothing but what is ordered. Take no unprescribed action. See how long it takes to sink that ship.
The only hope is there will be another society that recognizes the value of independent productivity and woos the productive away from the rotting remains. In Atlas Shrugged the only option was Mulligan's and Galt's little haven. In reality another nation-state will likely take on that role. Galt was only necessary because the rest of the world had fallen to fascism and socialism first. Rand couldn't see that a country other than the U.S. could be so productive. It also would have been a somewhat more boring story to just have all the capital and brainpower flee to another country rather than make a dramatic last stand.
So, the reasoning is that everyone is automatically engaged in the health care market by virtue of being alive.
I don't really concede that is true, since some people may die suddenly in an accident (or commit suicide) and not consume any health care in the process.
But even if it were, it still strikes me as wrong to consider "being alive" an activity, and more importantly, to consider it an activity that is subject to regulation, which is effectively what the mandates proponents are arguing.
If anyone who is alive is a health care consumer, and being a health care consumer is an "activity" that can be regulated, then ERGO "being alive is an activity that makes you subject to regulation."
When you shorten it to that basic form, it is apparent that this is a much more radical doctrine then it seems when you split it into the two component parts.
If you guys keep refusing to acknowledge any limits on government other than some vague handwaving "within reason" bullshit, we will continue to point out the inevitable consequence of your faulty premise.
Limited by what? Shouldn't government be able to do whatever the people it governs want it to do (subject to various procedural and supermajoritarian hurdles in specific cases)?
Since I happen to know there is no etched stone from the sky to tell us what exactly we should limit government to, I strongly suspect that you just want it limited to your policy preferences.
What justifies your threat of violence to impose your policy preferences on those who do not share them?
The political coalition desirous of enacting those preferences into law winning elections because they convince a legally sufficient portion of the electorate that those policies are a good thing?
A spouse doesn't always get everything he wants out of a marriage. Compromise and accepting that living with other people means you don't always get your way is part of being a grownup.
Limited by what? Shouldn't government be able to do whatever the people it governs want it to do (subject to various procedural and supermajoritarian hurdles in specific cases)?
I guess you're right. For instance, if the majority wants to kill all the Jews, or stop gays from marrying, then the government should simply aquiesce, the poor devils. No delusions of morality!
And apparently it takes merely the forceful rhetoric of a single libertarian to prevent it.
Yeah, whatever. You still cannot escape the fact that the mob can vote barbarism just as easily as it can vote safety nets for itself. You defend the mob when they vote what you like, but when someone points out the fact that mobs decided for barbarism, you immediately invoke the government's monopoly of force.
You cannot have your cake and eat it, too, Tony. If you want to place your bets on voting people, you should do so consistently, whether these vote to kill all rich people, all gays or all Jews. The will of the people and all that, right?
OM there is even less preventing mob barbarism in your preferred system than mind. You just think you can dismiss it with a wave of the hand. What am I supposed to believe? That without democracy and government, people won't act barbaric because they'll be just so appreciative of their freedom?
Are you trying to argue in circles or spirals? You basically just argued that there is no constitutionally imposed limit other than the constitution, which imposes no limit other than what a consensus agrees to Unless you want to argue that the consensus can be totally irrational and we still have to follow it, I don't see how you get out of this.
the constitution and our country is alittle more complkex than just a simple majority vote - it';s got democratic and republic elements with constitutional protections and common law protections
none of which would allow any law to be passed saying that all jews have to be killed
So, the reasoning is that everyone is automatically engaged in the health care market by virtue of being alive.
The best version of this argument, I think, is a little different.
Health insurance is the business of funding health care for risk pools. Regulating how this national risk pool gets funded is pretty clearly a regulation of interstate commerce.
At a national level, everyone is in the risk pool. Whether you pay for your participation in the risk pool or not, you are in the risk pool. And you can't opt out, because there is no real way to enforce an opt out. Nobody is going to punish you, or a doctor or hospital, if you get care even though you aren't insured.
Congress is regulating how this national risk pool, which everyone is part of, and which no one can opt out of, gets funded.
That's the best argument for constitutionality that I've seen.
Interesting. It seems the argument hinges on : Opt out, get care anyway, but don't pay for it. Nobody is going to punish you if you pay for the care you get, correct ?
See, I just do not buy the "risk pool" interpretation of health insurance.
People SAY that, but risk can be individually calculated, in which can an *individual* contract can be written in which ONE person makes an independent exchange with the insurance company: I pay you X amount per quarter, and in exchange, you assume the financial risk if I get sick. The X amount is specific to the individuals risks, and is calculated to be marginally more than his expected long-term healthcare expenses.
If you view health insurance in this way, there is no "risk pool", and an individuals decision to purchase health insurance or not has no effect on anyone else's insurance prices.
The only reason individuals opting out of the market can affect other people's insurance prices is (a) if insurance prices are NOT computed according to individual risk, but collectivized, and (b) if the individual has a sudden large medical cost, AND doesn't have insurance, AND doesn't pay for it via some other mechanism, AND the hospital increases costs for everyone else instead of absorbing the loss.
The Act considered as a whole makes clear that Congress was concerned that individuals maintain minimum coverage not as an end in itself, but because of the economic implications on the broader health care market.
"The Act considered as a whole makes clear that Congress was concerned that individuals maintain their houses painted not as an end in itself, but because of the economic implications on the broader house paint market."
Obviously, the morality of forcing people to buy something simply escapes the minds of these tax-fed leeches.
It also fails spectacularly on the "interstate" nature of the commerce required under the commerce clause. In previous rulings the Supreme Court has stretched the meaning of interstate by noting the fungible nature of commodities.
But healthcare is not a commodity, and it is notably non-fungible. Your purchase of breast augmentation surgery in Los Angeles has no impact on the market for cataract removal in Boca Raton. They are entirely segregated markets. Even in the same field there is no interstate commerce. Your podiatrist's office is located in one specific place. He is only licensed in that one specific place. He cannot provide services across state lines. It is physically impossible.
"But healthcare is not a commodity, and it is notably non-fungible. Your purchase of breast augmentation surgery in Los Angeles has no impact on the market for cataract removal in Boca Raton. They are entirely segregated markets."
damn. Good point. Never thought of that.
There are probably a few things that effect the national market but for the most part you're right
yeah... I forgot that that's somehting I thought of once.
Maybe a state could pass a law creating a separate system of hospitals that has to buy all their material froom within the state and you have to live in the state to go there, and it'd be exempt from all federal regulations. And so in theory it would be exempt from the "iunterstate" part of the commerce clause
They'd argue that the raw components were made or moved interstate commerce, or that people will move from states with certain types of health care to other states, etc.
Look at 18 USC 922(q) for an example of an attempt at justification for barring a person from possessing a firearm within 1000 feet of schools. For kicks, try to find something that can't be regulated using their boilerplate:
(q)(1) The Congress finds and declares that -
(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a
pervasive, nationwide problem;
(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate
movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;
(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce
and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools,
as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the
Judiciary (!3) the House of Representatives and the Committee on
the Judiciary of the Senate;
(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its
component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which
they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;
(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary
citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through
certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime
and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children
to school for the same reason;
(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has
resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse
impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the
United States;
(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost
impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves - even
States, localities, and school systems that have made strong
efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find
their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability
of other States or localities to take strong measures; and
(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce
clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact
measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's
schools by enactment of this subsection.
(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
It's also a beautiful illustration of the way that simply pretending that some part of something is involved in interstate commerce justifies regulating any behavior or interaction.
I think I understand now. Not doing anything is doing something. And when I am not doing something, that is an activity. So, when I am not active, I am active - and when I am active, I am not inactive. So that means A is not always A - it is sometimes B, and vice versa, except when it is not, and then we have to consult the Supremos. Do I have that about right?
"That is why most Americans manage the risk of not having the assets to pay for health care by purchasing medical insurance."
Wrong, most Americans have health insurance because it is a pre-tax benefit paid for by their employer. And it's only provided by the employer because there is a tax deduction to the employer and the employee doesn't have to pay taxes on it.
The companies also have the benefit of bulk buying power and can command a lower price per person than an individual could.
An individual person looking to buy insurance will face high premiums and no tax break. I always thought that the tax break should be removed from employers or granted equally to individual buyers.
Over time, the number of people who buy their own insurance could only grow. Insurance companies would offer tiered services and the competition would force rates to drop.
It would pretty much look the way car insurance does now.
Decoupling insurance from employers also would have eliminated most of the preexisting condition issues.
I've had one insurer (Progressive) since June 2000 despite changing jobs 10 or so times.
Imagine if you changed car insurance with each job-the new insurer would quite likely want some level of proof that the claimed damage happened while you were covered under the new insurer.
At this juncture, Libertarians are relying the "hypothetical-totally-inactive-in-the-healthcare-market-man." Now, such a creature may exist in reality -- maybe some Grizzly Adams-type character wandering the Idaho panhandle. But, until they find this guy and get him named as a plaintiff in a legal challenge to the ACA, they won't have much luck.
Generally, you can't challenge the constitutionality of laws using an unrealized hypothetical situation or person. If, for instance, there is a law that gives life without parole for stealing five dollars or more, and you get caught stealing a truck full of diamonds, you can't nullify the law as a violation of cruel-and-unusual punishment because it would violate the eighth amendment as applied to somebody who stole seven dollars. You would actually have to be convicted on the basis of stealing seven dollars before you could bring that challenge.
The individual mandate, as written, applies to "inactivity" in the sense that it could, hypothetically, apply to some one who was totally inactive in the health care market. That means somebody who doesn't ever buy insurance, who doesn't ever pay direct for any health care, who doesn't ever get any government help for health care, and who never uses up any of the free/charitable private care available.
That ain't me.
That ain't anybody I know.
That ain't anybody I have ever met before in my entire life.
That ain't anybody who is reading this thread.
"Inactivity" if constitutionally cognizable, isn't some piecemeal carve-out around "activity." True inactivity means total inactivity. If you are at all "active," then you are subject to regulation. Even if you drive a car once a year, the government can require you to buy insurance. Even if you hand-roll a single package of cigarettes for sale, the government can require you to put a warning label on that package.
This would make sense if we made just one payment for health insurance, and were covered for life. But the mandate forces you to pay for it every year. I'm sure you know PLENTY of people who went a year without seeing a doctor.
Theoretically, you could get lifetime coverage with a lump-payment if you wanted. There is no constitutional rule that "activity" has to be measured by some fixed period of time.
But if you do engage in commerce, the government can regulate you in ways that further engage you in commerce. Buy a car, and you might be required to buy insurance, buy a seatbelt, buy airbags, etc.
Would you be in favor of people being forced to buy a new car every X number of years, without regard to their ability to afford it or - more importantly - maybe they don't WANT a new car?
Why not force non-drivers to buy car insurance anyway?
Good luck convincing a blind man he needs a motorcycle policy, by the way.
At this juncture, Libertarians are relying the "hypothetical-totally-inactive-in-the-healthcare-market-man."
Awwww! And you came up with that one yourself? Oh, you snookums! I can pinch your little rosy cheeks to pieces!
Now, such a creature may exist in reality -- maybe some Grizzly Adams-type character wandering the Idaho panhandle.
Danny, stop being ridiculous. The fact that people use ANY service does not justify making people BUY that service at gunpoint.
Generally, you can't challenge the constitutionality of laws using an unrealized hypothetical situation or person.
No, you challenge their unconstitutionality by showing that the Constitution does not allow what the laws purport to allow. That does not make the Constitution the sole determinant of reality. Slavery is evil whether the Constitution allowed it or not, for instance.
The fact that people use ANY service does not justify making people BUY that service at gunpoint.
There are no guns involved. It's not a crime not to be insured. It's a different tax structure. It amounts to a fine. But the exact same thing could be achieved by giving a rebate to people who are insured. Glenn Beck has motive for being hysterical over this. That doesn't mean you have to be.
". But the exact same thing could be achieved by giving a rebate to people who are insured"
My understanding is that that's flat out wrong. The mandate, from what I remember, states that if you don't buy health insurance, there is a flat fee of like $1,000 regardless of your income.
If the mandate were a function of income, then maybe it'd fall under the 16th amendment, but from what I remember it's not.
It wouldn't work that way. If large numbers of people do not buy health insurance, then the fines (rebate) would have to be increased until they do.
Under current inerpretation of the taxing power, you can't do that. You cannot make a tax punitive or keep increasing it to get the desire behavior.
Just ain't so, Mex. There are a lot of laws on the books that I don't like, but I can't just walk into court and file a constitutional challenge to them based on them being "wrong." I'd have to break those laws, or have those laws applied to me in the specific way that I think they are unconstitutional, before I would have standing to bring a lawsuit to strike them down.
Just ain't so, Mex. There are a lot of laws on the books that I don't like, but I can't just walk into court and file a constitutional challenge to them based on them being "wrong."
Yes, you can. That's how the suit against the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was brought.
No, actually, that guy had a daughter who was in school during recitation of the pledge. I do not have a kid, so I could not bring that "Under God" suit.
Do you then have any suggestions for limits on governmental power other than what "the right people in charge" find to be "reasonable?" Any guiding principle besides mob rule or enlightened despotism?
I am no less happy paying taxes that help low-income people get health care than I am paying taxes to have police who protect the private wealth of men like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.
I am no less happy paying taxes that help single moms get their kids into pre-school than I am paying taxes that go to the enforcement of contracts of adhesion in favor of MasterCard and Visa.
I believe that wealth protection and creditor protection are no more legitimate or desirable as a taxpayer-funded "core government functions" than ensuring fellow citizens with basic decency and public amenities.
In that sense, I am at ease, and ill at ease, with "being owned" -- that being subject to majority rule in public affairs. I think if rich people want me to kick in for the police protection that keeps their limos and their gated mansions safe, they should have to kick in for some of my social priorities, too. It's called democracy. The results are quite mixed, to be sure, but I'm still willing to give it a shot.
They had standing to sue, and they had standing to lose. They don't have standing to make the "Reasonoid" argument, so they shoot higher, and they miss.
Translation: "Despite me spending four tedious paragraphs articulating a standing argument that the court emphatically rejected, and despite having my nose rubbed in my shit, I'm going to continue to pretend that I know something about the law."
I have "standing" to make an argument to a court that the top tax bracket inhibits my incentive to earn more money, so I should be allowed to challenge the top tax bracket as unconstitutionally confiscatory, even though I have never earned close to the top tax bracket. The court will reject that argument as to me. I'll lose. That will be a "precedent" as to people situated like me.
Now, if some guy who really does earn in the top tax bracket comes along, and he brings suit, and he argues confiscation, will my "precedent" kill his suit? No. He's got a more viable claim that I had.
Same here. If some Grizzly Adams comes in from the woods and says "hey, my only medicine is tree bark and honeycomb," he can make an argument that these plaintiffs couldn't. He ought not be precluded by the precedent set in this case. A true "off-the-grid" plaintiff should be able to make an "inactivity" argument that an ordinary person cannot.
This is what happened with the Amish and truancy laws. Everybody else lost truancy challenges, but the Amish, because of how they were situated, were able to get the Supreme Court to exempt them from truancy laws. But you couldn't just challenge a truancy law facially based on the argument that some hypothetical Amish-type person -- but not you -- could be unconstitutionally impacted by the truancy law.
you most certainly can challenge a law on its face
and furthermore your talk about a hypothetical is inaccurate. The fact of the matter is NOT buying health insurance is indeed, NOT buying health insurance. I.e. yo're not even doing anything
if anything, it's the other way around - YOUR proposition is the hypothetical. That is, all the substitute decisions somebody's making are solely hypothetical as you propose them. Furthermore, there definitely ARE a bunch of young people who just have not yet thought much about it or made any firm decisions, that's one of the advantages of being young, you can ignore stuff like that.
Not buying health insurance is interstate economic activity--you are a person with a body with a not insignificant risk of needing medical treatment at some point. Your so-called inaction transfers financial risk to other people, including people in other states, increasing their premiums.
Not buying health insurance is interstate economic activity--you are a person with a body with a not insignificant risk of needing medical treatment at some point.
The same if I don't buy fizzy cola: I am a living body that some day may be thirsty.
Your so-called inaction transfers financial risk to other people,
Thus spoke the financially and economics challenged.
You cannot cause risk to someone else by your inaction, dolt! Only the person that is facing the choices incurs in RISK, not someone else.
You cannot cause risk to someone else by your inaction, dolt!
But RC Dean above explained eloquently that you very much can. If you do not enter a risk pool voluntarily by acquiring insurance, you are entered automatically for free, forcing others to pay for the care you may receive.
If you do not enter a risk pool voluntarily by acquiring insurance, you are entered automatically for free, forcing others to pay for the care you may receive.
You're drawing wrong conclusions, Tony. It is one thing to enter a risk pool, quite another to have Big Daddy Government mandating that you receive services regardless of the fact you entered the pool or not, which is what is happening with current laws. The problem resides not in activity or inactivity, it resides on government mandating that services be provided, regardless of cost.
You cannot justify forcing people enter into a risk pool based on a situation that is totally of the government's making. It's like making the girl marry her rapist.
When I was younger, I worked as a contract employee and chose to forgoe health insurance in order to make more money. It was a calculated risk and had there been a medical emergency, I assumed that I would be on the hook to pay for it and be in debt for a long time with my wages garnished to pay for it. Why the devil does everyone assume that if one doesn't have insurance, that their medical cost should automatically be covered by someone else?
In the name of compassion, doing the right thing, or the "social contract", the government demands that hospitals treat everyone, then they agree to pick up some of those costs.
Finally, they assert that because they pay for hospital visits, they have authority to bar your from various activities and, now, mandate that you purchase insurance to prevent you from obtaining care without paying for it. You can obtain care and medical services without paying only because the government has made it that way.
Imagine if grocery stores were forced to operate this way.
Forbidding stores to deny food transfers to hungry people would cause the stores to lose money until they passed those costs onto paying customers, causing at least a few more people to be unable to pay, accelerating/escalating the cycle a bit. In comes the government to subsidize this to help stop some of the losses the stores are facing.
Add in the insult of the government incrementally forbidding people from doing various things on the basis that any costs incurred will be imposed on everyone thus justifying the government's foray into areas it would otherwise have no reason/justification.
Ie., the government might forbid yard work on hot days with the reasoning that strenuous work increases calorie and hydration needs and will cause people to buy/'need' more food/water, thus costing the government more money to pay for people who don't pay.
After a while it's realized that some people will never pay and government costs will quite likely never stop climbing. So, the government decides we all have to purchase food insurance or some sort of prepaid card from a licensed grocery store.
Danny, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection.
But it's overruled. Because you have failed, as so many others have failed, to provide the limiting principle to this legislation.
And to credit a few administration supporters, some have finally begun to admit that there is no limiting principle, only that there is no need (yet) to regulate all activity- or specifically, there's no utilitarian need to force you to buy broccoli...
Admit it, regulation has no limiting principle, only range-of-the-moment pragmatic limits.
No, I wasn't around then, but if elementary school history serves me right, the philosophical complaint was being subject to laws without representation in government. You have representation, and you have to follow laws, even ones you don't like.
No, I wasn't around then, but if elementary school history serves me right, the philosophical complaint was being subject to laws without representation in government.
That was the complaint behing the Stamp Act, Tony. People settled on America to escape laws they did not like, in Britain.
I suggest southern suriname, low population, plenty of raw land
if libertarianism is as great as these feebs say they should have a country in no time
in reality it'd only be guys and they'd be playing ookie cookie with each other within 2 months in between whining circle jerk discussions about government
when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security
I think this says you're wrong. In fact, I know it does.
Tony, I'm so sorry to be the one to burst the little bubble of happy ignorance you seem to live in, but: No one has to do anything - except live or die.
Well, that's how the constitution started. And the only constitution we have is the one that allows for a broad interpretation of the commerce clause. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's the way it is.
You're an interesting study Tony. Yet you take such a narrow view of the first amendment, and I'll bet an extremely narrow view of the second. I'm scared to ask how narrow your view is on the 4th and 5th.
I have an almost limitless view of the 1st amendment! I just don't believe money is equivalent to speech.
The 2nd I'd repeal.
The 4th I think has been eroded beyond recognition--I'm really big on the 4th. The 5th is a little more protected but I'm still really big on rights of the defendant.
It's not inconsistent at all. The operating principle behind all my policy preferences is ensuring justice, security, fairness, and equality under the law for everyone--and I think the little guy needs the most help with this.
It's not my belief that it would lead to slavery. Slavery would be a necessary precondition to guarantee a right to health care. Health care is a service provided by an individual; that is, it is his or her labor, the product of his or her body and mind. If you receive those services without remitting compensation then that person has been deprived property. If that person may not refuse to provide you with their labor, which they cannot if you have a right to that product, then he is deprived of liberty.
oh come on
Clearly they don't have the write to stop speech. They do have a right TO CHANGE THEIR TAX STATUS because of the laws involving tax status and what different entities may do to keep their status, but not the right to stop them from speaking altogether
why isn't the disincentive of changing the status enough for you?
Part of law is that you DO have to follow it according to what it actually says. If we stop pretending words have meaning then we effectively don't have law
I mean really, Tony? Here's a serious issue, some of the SCOTUS justices have been pretty old, and there's evidence that they had been going senile during their reign. I believe I read a "The Straight Dope" article that summarized it well.
What if one of these senile old guys really writes something nuts? Are we really suppose to just pretend it's suddenly law? Like, I have to make him banana tapioca pudding acfcording to the 1st amendment? Or tattoos are banned because it's a jewish conspiracy?*
*trying to come up with crazy shit a senile old man would say
Understand I'm not endorsing anything about our system. Perhaps when life expectancy was closer to 30 it made sense to have lifetime appointment of judges.
The fact remains, however, that our system has the Supreme Court as the final arbiter of what the constitution means. There is no outside authority, is there? Surely you can agree that the vast differences found even on this thread make the "appeal to plain English" a little flimsy. It means what they say it means, whether they choose to interpret it sanely or not.
Now your scenario sounds like a constitutional crisis in the making, which would be OK--we need a lot of fundamental reforms.
"It means what they say it means, whether they choose to interpret it sanely or not."
So you're saying that we should follow blatantly absurd orders?
"There is no outside authority, is there?"
Well, the executive could not follow a judicial ruling. A member of the legislature could try to unilaterally create a separate court. People could just widespread disobey.
If you're saying that we should listen to the SCOTUS no matter what the ruling, then you're saying that they're dictators with absolute power, and rightly so, which would be a very illiberal position.
Remember, at that hypothetical point we're taking about the breakdown of our very system of governance, and clearly some drastic measures would need to be taken.
I was going to say don't be silly, but then I remembered we're in the midst of just such a breakdown. Washington was smart to warn of factionalism--it's paralyzed our country's ability to do anything, to the extent that the global economy is at risk of shock.
Perhaps when life expectancy was closer to 30 it made sense to have lifetime appointment of judges.
Dude, if you weren't so ignorant, you'd know that even when average life expectancy was only about 30 it sure as hell didn't apply to the elitist class from which judges were drawn.
This is pretty sad Tony. Liberals are supposed to respect law and order, and you're pretty much outright telling me that laws don't exist, that we're to be a nation of men and not laws.
I only ever said that governments engage in what could be called exchange to the same extent that businesses engage in the same. And you never really refuted what I said. All you seem to be abkle to do is insulkt me.
This is pretty sad Tony. Liberals are supposed to respect law and order
But you're mistaken. Tony (and other like him) aren't liberals - they're leftists enthralled with authority and power, all enabled by the ability to remove money from people for various reasons.
It has nothing to do with 'helping the little guy', and everything to do with being in charge.
Viewed through that lens, their comments are perfectly consistent.
The most probable "limiting principle," as you put it, is the Grizzly Adams dude, but that is a very weak limitation, if it exists, so I don't think it will make you happy.
The lack of limiting principle means that the government can force you to buy anything... and has been argued as such by administration hacks. They just assure us that they won't do it because at this moment in time, there's no utilitarian need-- ie, the right people are in charge.
The old "Brocolli Argument" raises an interesting question, but it is not really in issue under the ACA.
The individual mandate is one integrated component of a much larger regulatory apparatus, the great bulk of which fits under the commerce clause without quibble. The question is whether the individual mandate, with its limited but crucial facilitative function in this larger apparatus, fits under the commerce clause.
That may be a debatable question, but it is nothing like the question of whether the government, by fiat simpliciter, could just order you to buy a product in commerce as an exercise of its power to regulate commerce.
The only way that a "broccoli mandate" could be made analogous is if individual storage of a fixed set of food provisions was made part of a government-legislated emergency food preparedness program.
Yo, I have stood by the "walks-like-a-duck" theory on the tax question all along.
The individual mandate is nothing but a 16th-Amendment revenue measure as far as I'm concerned, no matter what label the politicians tried to put on it in press conferences and committee meetings. It's like Social Security, which nobody wants to acknowledge as a simple regressive tax unconnected in any legally binding way to future benefits, even though that is all it is.
Danny, the problem with your objection is that you are asserting that everyone is active in the healthcare market, by virtue of being alive. Yet most people, commonly, have a philosophical problem with people being forced to do things just because they are alive. Positive duties to act are generally voluntairily assumed, or imposed as punishments. They are not things that just "come with" living. At least they are not legally enshrined and enforced as law. They might be considered moral duties, but not legal ones. The examples you can think of (say conscription) are generally regarded as morally problematic.
No. Grizzly Adams is "alive." He has a true, bona fide claim to "inactivity." Most of us don't.
The present plaintiffs are not trying to assert a right to be "inactive" today, tomorrow, and forever. They are asserting a right to come and go as they please in the newly-federally-regulated community-rated insurance market. But that creates a big adverse-selection problem for the federal system and it is going to be hard to get the judiciary behind the plaintiffs' position.
The only way a person could really make a rock-solid inactivity claim is to be committed to inactivity, so that they will not pose a threat of becoming active at some future point and throwing the new community-rating system out of whack.
People like you are smooshing together liberty arguments with the inactivity arguments. You want the liberty to participate or not participate in the insurance market AS YOU GO ALONG. And while you are not in the market, you want to be shielded by the notion of "inactivity." And when you want to enter the market you want "freedom of contract." But that just ain't the law. At best, you could gain the protection of "inactivity" by going Amish and convincing the court that you are entirely outside of the health care market for good. (Still no guarantees, though.)
No, I'm not asking for the right to come and go in a community-rated insurance market.
My position is that IF the government wishes to impose regulations that make the insurance market unviable by creating adverse selection problems, that that has nothing to do with me. They have no right to compell me to participate in the insurance market in order to mitigate the perverse effects of their own regulatory scheme. The individuals have nothing to do with it. They didn't create the regulations that created the perverse effects. They are being forced to clean up someone else's mess.
The only remedy you could ask a court for on that basis is to to get out and stay out of the medical services market for the rest of your life, with no option to return. The government can fxck up the marketplace all it wants to; that doesn't mean you have some God-Given right to opt in on what you like and opt out on what you don't.
Plus, with all this activity, I'll be able to eat whatever the fuck I want without worrying about weight gain. How do I calculate all these calories I'm burning?
THAT is a great idea. Could this be extended to 'self-regulation'?
IOW, could it be possible that all individuals and companies, simply by being, are 'self-regulating', and therefore self-complying, removing any basis for government regulation?
I know, since virtually all people will see a newspaper headline, everybody should be required to buy a subscription. Only to an accredited rag, of course.
Consider it thanks for the campaign contribs, nytimes and wapo.
if this reasoning holds then congress will have unlimited economic regulatory power.
The judicial system has long been overstepping its bounds vs. the legislature and executive by stretching common sense and the meanings of words, on both the federal and local level. At some point some member of the executive or legislature somewhere is going to have to stand up and deny a court's supposed reasoning.
If referendums become easier in states, we'll find more and more judges overturning the people's wishes. The audacity is appaling, overturning something a significant majority votes for.
Here are just a few gems:
In one case a lady sued a somewhat-nearby newly created pig farm for nuisance and won, when that pig farm was created in an agricultural zone that already existed when she bought the house. That is, the voters explicitly said that that land could be used for agricultural purposes, and the court said no, they owe damages.
And sometimes they refuse to apply basic common sense. In one case, a lady screwed a guy while he wqas passed out drunk and gfot pregnant. The guys still; had to pay child support. Any element of choice or liability or knowable risk was absent from that situation, but still the judge only applied precedent and m,ade the guy pay. Every judge has the power every time to make a new precedent, but when they clearly should, they don't
Hell, even alimony has barely any judicial reasoning behind it.
This is also why our liability system is so screwed up
The judicial system is supposed to be the one that stops over-reaching from the legislature (in a republic) and apply common sense to issue. It rarely does anything of the sort. The only thing I remember like that is when that city in California tried to outright ban tattoo parlors and the court said that was well outside of the interest of health, wealth, or morals as per police power under common law.
I don't think "common sense" is meant to be in the toolbox for judges. At least precedent outweighs it. The fact is, if the individual mandate is ruled unconstitutional then there are innumerable laws that would have to be undone. It's just the case that the CC is that widely interpreted.
I don't think "common sense" is meant to be in the toolbox for judges.
That much they have proved for the past 220 years.
At least precedent outweighs it.
Indeed, the "a judge said so" criteria pretty much trumps rationality, reason, principles, humanity, logical discourse, intelligence, knowledge, epistemology...
Knowing you as I do, when you say "rationality, reason, principles, humanity, logical discourse, intelligence, knowledge, epistemology" what you mean is "whatever my opinion is."
Knowing you as I do, when you say "rationality, reason, principles, humanity, logical discourse, intelligence, knowledge, epistemology" what you mean is "whatever my opinion is."
If you say so, Mr. "case law opinion trumps everything else" guy.
WHile I'm no absolutist or objectivist, in the realms of science and law, the focus of the language and the rhetoric is narrow enough that there are plenty of cases where there is no ambiguity.
If someone were to say that when hydrogen burns it doesn't create water, they'd be provably wrong.
Similarly, given what the constitution actually says, the obamacare mandate is in fact unconstitutional.
The fact that SCOTUS had already "set precedent" before by making stuff up about the constitution doesn't change that.
It can't be "in fact" unconstitutional until the matter is settled, probably by the Supreme Court. Does that sound pedantic? I just don't believe in declaring things constitutional or not based on anything other than the means by which the system itself decides these things. Plain English or not, there is no outside arbiter.
I'm not saying they aren't the arbiters I'm saying they are often full of shit.
We have all these systems and precedents but at the end of the day you have to recognize that words have meanings and some things are just ludicrous.
like I said elsewhere, would you follow the orders of a senile judge that were clearly nonsense? What if Gary Busey (or someone like him) became a judge?
doubtless the deliberate absurd stretching of laws has been used to brutally opress people at some point. I don't know that much history but if I read something within the next year or so I'll definitely remember it for this issue
I don't really agree that this has been the case, but then I'm OK with broad federal powers (it's the local laws you have to worry about with respect to individual liberty, imo). In the end the only thing preventing a runaway like you're describing is the inherent system of checks and balances. I'm kind of surprised it's been as stable as it has.
that's kind of what I'm saying, it hasn't been THAT stable. The wheat-farmer precedent was clearly complete nonsense, as was the postal service barring other private ones from competing precedent, just to name a few.
It's not the worst thing in the world, but I do believe the judicial system both state and federal has kind of become fucking nonsense. Read my comment about that upthread.
no, but there is such a thing as the absurdity doctrine, which does imply that the intent of the law matters
and they do have to use their own common sense when CREATING precedent. Precedent isn't everything, judges can create their own precedent, and clearly the whole idea of liability is meant to cause people to pay when they're ACTUALLY at fault.
It's unfortunate that ACTUAL guilt and liability have become totally removed from the legal process. But it's supposed to be there, and you know it, Tony.
And sometimes they refuse to apply basic common sense. In one case, a lady screwed a guy while he wqas passed out drunk and gfot pregnant. The guys still; had to pay child support.
That reminds me of a case involving a former co-worker of mine. He had lived in Florida for 13 years when he received a letter from the State of Ohio saying that he owed them 13 years of back child support payments. Turns out his ex-girlfriend had gotten pregnant shortly before he moved away, and had the kid 8 months after he had left. She never made any attempt to contact him, but when she filed for welfare she listed him as the father, so the state paid the child support payments, and 13 years later finally tracked him down for reimbursement.
After a failed suit to gain visitation of the son he never knew he had, one of the mother's relatives told him that he probably wasn't the father anyhow. He then filed to contest paternity, and the DNA test showed that he definitely was not the father. That got him off the hook for child support from that point forward, but the judge ruled that he still owed the state for the back payments, and that he was not entitled to a refund for the 2 years of payments he had made during the legal battles.
"the text of the Commerce Clause does not acknowledge a constitutional distinction between activity and inactivity, and neither does the Supreme Court."
I am not a violent man, but there are days when I wish nature to be cruel to certain people.
Glad to see the commerce clause is being re-interpreted. It was much to narrow before. We need to have it expanded before we can adopt a system of rational planning at the commanding heights of the economy--its our only hope of catching up with China.
The commerce clause gives Congress power to regulate interstate commerce. It does not give Congress the power to regulate any other activity, regardless of the activity's effect on commerce.
I could actually be sold on the "inactivity is activity" argument, but only because my mind has been warped by math classes where I was taught to think of zero as being just like all those other numbers that actually reflect actual quantities. I'm not sure PPACA is unconstitutional, I just think it's an extremely poor piece of legislation that is going to cause all kinds of problems and not solve any of the problems it is purported to solve.
Because you have failed, as so many others have failed, to provide the limiting principle to this legislation.
Activity/inactivity is not a good limiting principle, unless (again) you are willing to go all the way back and throw out most of modern Commerce Clause jurisprudence.
Here's the problem. The "inactivity" at issue is inactivity in the markets being regulated (health care, health insurance, whatever).
But vast swathes of regulation consist of mandates that you buy goods or services that you would not otherwise buy. A power plant would be "inactive" in the pollution control market except for the EPA regs; a manufacturer would be inactive in the safety equipment market except for OSHA.
If you say that the government doesn't have the authority to force you to be active in a given market, you have shut down quite a bit of the federal government. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I don't think the courts will be very excited about it.
"A power plant would be "inactive" in the pollution control market except for the EPA regs; a manufacturer would be inactive in the safety equipment market except for OSHA"
But such regulations are contingent on doing something in the first place, namely, running a plant. They're not contingent on DOING NOTHING, like the obamacare mandate.
You see the difference, EVERY SINGLE PERSON NO MATTER WHAT THEY"RE DOING has to buy health insurance under the mandate. The EPA requires you to do certain pollution control things IF you're running a power plant.
unless you meant that in terms of the fact that you're making healthcare decisions? In which case the point still stands: not doing something isn't commerce
Someone can grow a weed plant, place it in your living room, and all you have to do is sit there to be breaking federal law (which has been affirmed in court as justified by the CC).
But such regulations are contingent on doing something in the first place, namely, running a plant.
The objection to ObamaCare depends (implicitly) on defining markets pretty narrowly for purposes of determining activity/inactivity. The argument is that you are not active in healthcare/health insurance markets, not that you are not active in any market.
So I don't see how the "conditional" nature of other mandates saves them from the limiting principle. If Congress can't require that you become active in a market, then it lacks that power, period, regardless of whether you are active in some other market.
well the thing is I guess they would say that the things they regulate are part of those markets, becasue for the most part they are. Pollution control is indeed part of running a plant. Clean Disposal of materials and safety precautions with pesticides are part of running a farm, etc.
the other part of the limiting principle is of course "interstate".
As a practical matter I've always been for technocratic reguation being state level, becuase different states are in fact vastly different. For example, here in New Jersey, we have a building code specifically dealing with upgrading old structures, because we have so many old structures in this state.
If the feds were to regulate building codes they'd probably only use the typical ICC code and fuck us over.
Every power plant disposes of pollution somehow (and this is an absolute, it's not "virtually every"), and the method of pollution disposal inherently affects interstate commerce.
well, not the solid waste like fly ash, certainly at least not if you're not near a border and there's no chance of cross-border groundwater contamination
anyway I stand by what I said above from a normative standpoint, technocratic regulations are better done at the state/local level
vast swathes of regulation consist of mandates that you buy goods or services that you would not otherwise buy
Only if you have already made some affirmative choice to become involved in SOME market that is subject to regulation.
Power plants are *already* in the energy production markets.
The mandates defenders say that everyone is already active in the healthcare market. Yet that "activity" comes about by virtue of being BORN, which is not a voluntary decision. Nobody is allowed to CHOOSE whether to enter the healthcare market in the first place. They are simply being told "You're alive! Nyah! Nyah! You're in the healthcare market! We can regulate you!"
Children don't have to pay the individual mandate, and by remaining in the US after age 18 you are signifying that you intend to be part of the national health care market. If you don't want to be subject to national health care regulation, you're free to move to Canada.
You must buy cheese from Minnesota. You need food. Cheese is a food. And Minnesota is broke.
You must poop in only government run bathrooms. Everyone poops. Poop disposal costs money. Sewer systems are too difficult to manage. So we must all now poop centrally.
Everyone must now buy bottled water. Drinking water from a stream deprives water producers of economic activity. And stream water may be contaminated, leading to illnesses which cost citizens who are mandated to pay for your healthcare.
I don't think so. As near as I can tell the current commerce clause rules would mean that you'd need the entire staff to be trained in state. If you hire a doctor from out-of-state then you're affecting interstate commerce. There is no escape from the commerce clause if Obamacare stands.
But early in his ruling, Judge Boyce Martin actually argues that the distinction between activity and inactivity doesn't matter, because "the text of the Commerce Clause does not acknowledge a constitutional distinction between activity and inactivity, and neither does the Supreme Court."
It doesn't need to! It has nothing to do with activity or inactivity. Congress has the authority to regulate one specific type of activity.
"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;"
com?mercenoun \?k?-(?)m?rs\
: the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale involving transportation from place to place
That's it! Any activity, inactivity, economic decision, thought, or proclivity that is not the act of exchanging or buying and selling commodities is not commerce. Anything that is not commerce does not fall under congressional regulatory authority under the commerce clause. It's not that complicated!
The term "commerce" does not have that narrow meaning, particularly when you look at it historically. "Commerce" is really a term indicating "interactions between" entities. You really can't build an argument around the "lexical" semantics here. You need to pay attention to the entire clause, at least. And even then, the strict textualist approach runs into some ambiguities. Like it or not, language is just not as precise as you are pretending.
That's one possible meaning of the word, but it's clearly not what the authors meant. This is a case of lexical ambiguity, not the semantic ambiguity that textualism attempts to remove. A regulation on operators of power plants doesn't apply to a kid using a potato as a battery for his science project, despite the fact he's operating a "plant" that generates power.
I grant it means trade, or economic activity. The word commerce did have common usage as these broad meanings at the time, but it's too cute by half for me to buy that's the right meaning here.
But it doesn't matter for this discussion, because the main word is "regulate." It meant to make rules about, and rules can be mandates. So to make rules (which includes mandates) about commerce includes making mandates about commerce.
Commerce has always meant trade. The Latin root is merx, merchandise. Commercium: to trade merchandise together. The later definitions regard purely social interactions, particularly the exchange of ideas; or sexual intercourse. Surely, you're not proposing that the Constitution allows Congress to regulate sexual intercourse or intellectual exchange. Certain words are very precise, and since most of the framers of the Constitution were well versed in Latin, I'm very confident that they meant that word to be understood as trade. Especially since the only other mention of commerce is to specify that states may not establish trade barriers against any other state.
The everyday meaning of the term "activity" encompasses the making of choices. The making of a choice is an activity, even if the choice is to "not act." As such, you need to go somewhere else with your argument.
The "can't create commerce" argument is a bit stronger, but still pretty weak tea.
I don't like the approach that the law takes to healthcare reform, but the legal arguments being presented against it are unconvincing, imho. It can be a bad idea and legal at the same time.
I am making an infinite number of not-buying decisions every second. Is all of that decision making "economy activity" which is subject to commerce clause regulation?
What kind of society do we want? One where politicians and bureaucrats can control everything? Or one where most decisions are made by individuals?
It's really that simple. Twisting words to arrive at desired conclusions really is just verbal masturbation. There are two truths here: (1) The current interpretations of Constitutional provisions are mostly indefensible distortions by any rational measure; and (2) regardless of truth #1, the fact remains that we've allowed legislation and case law that has set a precedent of allowing almost unrestricted power in every level of government.
We can either stop and reset to a limited government/personal liberty/free market system, or we can continue down the path we're on to almost certain and open tyranny. If this happens, don't be surprised when a lot of bad things happen, including an American Empire. An economic collapse combined with our unlimited government and its incredible military supremacy is a really, really dangerous thing.
See, the mandate's supposers keep saying that the activity/inactivity is pure sophistry that is politically motivated.
But isn't the current warped, stretched beyond regonition, idiotic interpretation of the commerce clause the real sophistry?
And isn't the desire to see the mandate upheld politically motivated?
They're accusing anti-mandate people of twisting words for political purposes. But they are twisting the words of the Constitution, for political reasons themselves.
All sophistry and illusion. We all know that the government was founded with limited, enumerated powers. It's not rationally debatable. The fact that the government has twisted everything to the point where what was once limited and strictly defined is now virtually unlimited and undefined changes nothing, because at some point, a majority of us are going to realize that the government is no longer legitimate and that it has usurped power never granted to it in the first place.
The statists, particularly of the left-wing variety, want to claim that the fact that the courts have been complicit in all of this makes it legitimate. But it does not. Consent of the governed is the keystone to the stability of our system, and all the logic-chopping in the world doesn't change that. At some point, we either make internal changes to return the government to some semblance of a legitimate republic, or we accept tyranny and its consequences.
We may continue to look like a republic for a long time, but we won't be one if we let government continue to define its powers as unlimited and continue to act with diminishing accountability.
I submit to you the " stretched beyond regonition" part of current Commerce Clause caselaw involves not this action/inaction thing, which is non-textual and contrary to the common sense meaning of the word "regulate", and not the junking of bizarrely abstract and sophistic arguments narrowly defining commerce (distinctions between "manufacture" and "commerce" when the article manufactured is intended for and involved in interstate trade), but instead is the substantial effects doctrine. It is the substantial effects doctrine that allows the inter-state part of the interstate commerce clause to be gutted.
The problem though is that without something like the substantial effects doctrine we go from a nearly all encompassing power to a neutered one. Now of course libertarians would be happy with that, but the Founders were not libertarians and surely this is not what they were doing in granting the power, granting a neutered power.
Still, I've long thought about how the substantial effects doctrine could be modified to provide meaningful limits. One idea is to follow the thinking in cases like Heart of Atlanta Motel v. US where the government had to make an actual showing that a significant portion of an enterprises business had an interstate component. Another is to put the burden on the government in actually showing that allowing X to fall outside regulation would have a substantial effect in the aggregate, sort of like what courts do when analyzing whether religious exemptions to certain regulations should be granted. It can't just be assumed in the hypothetical what would happen if everyone did the behavior in question in the aggregate, it should have to be shown that there is some realistic evidence of or likelihood of that happening.
There is nothing sophistic about the activity/inactivity distinction.
Basic moral intuitions common to western culture (fuck that, the entire human race) recognizes the distinction between forbidding an action and mandating it.
We also have a long standing legal tradition recognizing the difference between pushing someone in front of a train, and failing to rescure them.
We didn't invent the activity/inactivity distinction out of nowhere.
And no the word "regulate" does not imply mandating that uninvolve bystanders get involved in an activity. Regulation implies regulation only of people already involved in a market.
The real issue is whether being alive is enough to constitute an "activity" that automatically subjects you to regulation.
If we follow the arguments of the mandates proponents, all living human beings are automatically in the healthcare market and therefore can be forced to do things.
I don't think as a philosophical matter that the distinction is sophistic, but as a matter of language and text. The word and concept "regulate" has a long history of encompassing the power to mandate as well as direct and is even used so in the Constitution in other areas. You're just trying to read your political philosophy into the text and language, but unfortunately for you the makers and users of language are not all libertarians.
It's one place where the "living" Constitution fans are right--we make the decision every day to be free or to allow tyrants to dominate us. It's not some old document or a bunch of judicial opinions that make us free. It was us all along.
Which means everyone's a free rider, with the exception of Bill Gates et al.
But this then applies to everything. In your world, only Billionaires aren't free riders, because they're the ones who can afford to do any conceivable action.
Since you can't afford any conceivable legal representation, you are a free rider and subject to the Law Mandate. etc.
You are proposing a solution for a symptom (free riders) of a problem government created by mandating no-questions-asked care in emergency rooms. I have a much cheaper (not to mention constitutional and moral) solution for that problem: get rid of the emergency care mandate.
You're the serial killer. In all practicality, your policy has been to make health care so expensive that only the well-to-do can afford to pay for it. The blood is on your hands, moron.
Jeesus, it seems as if MNG split his personality and infected Tony and Edwin and is now arguing with itself. Throw some Neu in there and this is almost like reading an MSNBC thread.
THe principle here is so blindingly clear to any libertarian (and most rational people). I am waiting for the collapse to move to Costa Rica.
""the text of the Commerce Clause does not acknowledge a constitutional distinction between activity and inactivity, and neither does the Supreme Court."
That's all he needed to say. The meaning of the word "regulate" in many other legal matters has long been held to encompass mandates as well as prohibitions and directives of already existing behavior. In case after case concerning the local and state police power the word "regulate" is used, and that power uncontroversily includes mandates. If it includes mandates then there is indeed no textual support for this 'action/inaction' distinction.
It's interesting to see some progress being made even among the ideologically driven here on H&R. Less and less people are coming on to make the argument that only the Dormant Clause understanding was granted to Congress in the Clause as it's been repeatedly pointed out that this view is demolished by Raich (as well as the fact that again there is no textual support for it and there appears to be a redundancy with other parts of the Constitution under such a reading), that the Clause only allows direction, the making regular of already existing commerce (again, the total prohibition endorsed in Raich blows that out of the water).
So slow, incremental progress is being made. Who knows, in a decade or so libertarians may no longer feel the need to engage in mental gymnastics to try to deny that the common sense meaning of "regulate" or "to make rules" includes the power to mandate as well as prohibit and direct behavior.
I dunno. I find libertarians (actual ones, not the conservatives who dress up their conservatism in a libertarian dress) to have a good deal more principle than most libertarians, and to have values that are much more likable than most republicans.
But it's clear their principles are guiding them on this. They abhor the results of the current commerce clause caselaw because they rightly see it allows for more federal government action than they would like. You can easily see this by perusing any thread on this subject here, the denunciations ultimately always come around to how there is no limit on government, how minute actions can be regulated, how the scope and reach of government are so very, very much greater under this caselaw than they were ages ago. They want a result that will tie the government up, for very good and noble reasons actually imo, and they will torture language, precedent and logic until that result is gotten.
Take virtually any discussion of Wickard. There's usually little substantive discussion of the logic the court reached and the precedents leading up to that ruling, the problems of the courts in dealing with many different situations drawing every finer lines, usually there is just the outrage that a man who wanted to grow wheat for his family and animals was prevented from doing so. If you take this result out of context it does seem outrageous, heck even in context it does, but for a libertarian it must seem exponentially more so. And that outrage guides their legal thinking on this topic...
My only solace is that idiots such as yourself who marvel at their own brilliance will suffer far more than they possibly can comprehend if 'their' side actually triumphs in the struggle of government authority over liberty and freedom.
You've made no point. All you've done is pretend that there's an absence of substantive discussion, which you then extrapolate as some sort of intellectual victory. Not even a straw man - it's more of a straw reality.
If it's so bad here, with so little substantive input, why stay?
I don't think any current lawsuit being discussed around the country is trying to make the argument that the health insurance or care markets are not interstate ones...One look at, say, Aetna's webpage dispells that idea.
a) I didn't say anything about current lawsuits. If anything, I'm describing the lawsuit that I would file, but I'm not a lawyer. I'm just putting forth an argument that I'd like you to answer.
b) Aetna does business in several states, but the insurance in each state is separately regulated and is not portable. Look at their "choose an individual policy" widget on the home page ... first thing it asks you is what state you live in.
The Commerce clause of the Constitution was supposed to maintain free trade between the states. The US was new, each state was full of greedy politicians (as now), and this allowed the new Federal government to keep the states from levying destructive tariffs and other rules on each other which would limit trade between them.
It wasn't a rule to grant federal power to regulate a business in detail if it sells something across state lines. It was actually the opposite of that.
Roosevelt and the New Deal forced the current interpretation as a way to impose federal government control. Sell a donut across state lines? The Feds apply donut regulations to you. There are rulings that prducing and consuming your own milk affects interstate prices, so the Feds can apply regulations to you. It is completely natural to apply the same reasoning to just sitting there being uninsured. It is entirely consistent with past rulings and the power of the Feds. It is a bit late to wake up, blink, and say "that isn't reasonable, to regulate us just because someone might see us across a state line".
At this point, accept that you are the serf/pawn of the government "for your own good". You have the choice of electing whomever you wish, but they get dictatorial power over you until the next election.
Understand your natural rights. Think hard about what you want the country to be like for your children and for you as you get older. Demand that the Constitution be changed to make its limitations binding, and correct the idiotic rulings which prevent a supposedly free people from asking each other questions (employment law) and trading with each other.
Russians and Nigerians (for example) are not overall less intelligent, less hard working, or less concerned about their lives than we in the US. They lack a tradition of freedom and they have dictatorial government. We in the US can become much more like them. All we need is the right sort of government, the sort we are seeing implemented right now.
"The Commerce clause of the Constitution was supposed to maintain free trade between the states."
Citation needed.
I mean, what does this kind of statement even mean? Was this supposed to be the legislative intent of the drafters and ratifiers? There were literally hundreds of people involved, we cannot peer into their minds and find what they were thinking.
All we have that we can know for sure is the text they wrote, a text which grants Congress the "power to regulate...commerce...among" the states. Our only guidance is what the word power, regulate (to make rules), commerce (trade), among (between), and states (the geographical units of the US) mean and meant as words.
1. MNG claims that he has no way of knowing what the founders thought.
2. Rational people cite public quotes from James Madison, or the federalist papers, or one of the many contemporaneous sources which explain in clear detail that the interpretation of the writers and ratifiers of the constitution was diametrically opposed to MNG's willful misinterpretations.
3. MNG backpedals, and switches claim to "It doesn't matter what they thought; as long as I redefine the words they use I can find a loophole!"
4. MNG waits for time to elapse, then resumes lying about being unable to discern what the founders thought.
Clearly you don't understand this part of the argument I made above:
"There were literally hundreds of people involved, we cannot peer into their minds and find what they were thinking."
You can point to the federalist papers or Madison's notes, and now you're talking about a handful of the hundreds of ratifiers stances, and worse, just their public pronouncements of the same.
The irony here is my views of the futility of legislative intent as a guide come from Justice Scalia.
The real irony is the fact that you use Scalia's opinion as some sort of trump card, as it shows your inability to even grasp the fundamental beliefs of H&R.
So as I say, I wake up every morning, thankful that I have exceptional health insurance coverage I found through "Penny Health" for my family because it gives me peace of mind knowing that my family can count on me to deliver their health care needs.
It's pretty simple: the American people made the tragic mistake of giving control of the house, senate, and presidency to the Democrats. We're now fucked, until we can find a legislative way to get un-fucked. Meanwhile, enjoy the broom handle in your ass. Maybe it'll get more comfortable with time.
How exactly does one go about starting a business and then get the government to force everyone to buy my product? Because that seems like a pretty good business model. And is the car industry kicking themselves that they didn't think of this first?
Isn't interstate when you cross over a border into a different state? Like interstate commerce, isn't that buying something from out of state? If I don't leave the state to purchase anything, how is that interstate? What do these retards smoke?
COMMERCE CLAUSE SMASH!
I blame Anselm of Canterbury.
Abelard tried to stop him. So they took his balls. THEY TOOK HIS GODDAMN BALLS!
Virtually everyone participates in the market for health care delivery, and they finance these services by either purchasing an insurance policy or by self-insuring..
Which means some don't, so the mandate is creating economic activity rather than regulating it.
That jumped out at me too. Because nobody can absolutely, 100%, iron-clad guarantee, that every, single, solitary American will purchase health care every year, or even in their life time. There are many circumstances in which a person would not.
So for those people, you are forcing them to engage in commerce in which they would not normally be engaged.
Outside of the eye doctor, which I pay for out of pocket, I haven't purchased any health care in almost a decade*.
*over the counter products notwithstanding
Same thing here. Real men don't go to the doctor every six months to get checked up on unless they know there's something wrong; that's for the girls to do.
OTC products are commerce. We win.
Shut the fuck up, Hobie.
And go the fuck back into your hidey-hole where you belong.
Have you been injured in the last decade? The act of healing yourself through purely biological means has a substantial effect on the delivery of healthcare and thus, interstate commerce. After all, if you had been weak enough to succumb to infection, you would have needed a doctor's intervention...
/sarc
It doesn't need to be 100%. The regulation of the interstante orange trade also regulates the intrastate orange trade. It doesn't matter.
Close enough for government work/takeover.
Exactly. I said it before and I'll say it again:
Compelling an individual to perform some activity is not regulation of the activity. It is regulation of the individual. Congress does not have the power to regulate individuals in this sense.
I want demand my existence regulated.
I demand to know who Jagr is going to sign for TODAY!!
Do you want him back? I'm leaning yes.
It is a strange sort of activity that does not require one to do anything at all in order to participate.
They're regulating sex?
Nobody took the bait?
I really thought that was a good one.
Unless it hit too close to home? Maybe that's it. I'm dealing with geeks who fuck whatever doesn't run away.
Inactivity is now activity. "Activity" can now be tossed on the pile of words made nonsense by left-wing morons, along with Voluntary, Consent, Majority, Freedom, Liberty, Rights, Commerce, Restrained, and No.
Fuck it, I'm opting out.
The 6th Unseelie Court of Circuit Appeals has ruled that "opting out" does not exclude "cheerful consent".
I'm cheerfully unconsenting.
Good "Harry Dresden" reference. Though I might have gone for the White Court one, myself. Politicians are more like psychic vampires than faeries.
I'd prefer not.
Tolerance, Diversity, Liberal...
Tolerance, Diversity, Liberal...
Tolerance
Diversity
Liberal
Tolerance
Diversity
Liberal...
How about:
Tolerance
Diversity
Liberal...
What do you have against Richard Simmons, dude?
Don't forget "is."
Fuckin A' Hayek
Don't forget War, Hostilities, and (courtesy of Slick Willy) Is.
db beat me to it on "is". I should have read down further.
I wonder if we are inching (racing?) toward the day when enough citizens will say "Enough" and cast off this creaky, farcical edifice of progressivism that our republic has become, and begin anew. What a fucking joke.
Maybe if you weren't such a pussy the revolution would be happening right now.
I need to update my text for the Penguin Classics 2011 revision.
Should it be:
I think therefore I am regulated.
or
I am regulated therefore I am.
I am therefore I am regulated.
Scratching one's balls is also a form of economic activity then, as they need to be scratched sooner or later anyway.
it's time!
Ahhh. Economic activity complete!
NOOOOOOO!!!!
What about me?
Ok, how about this.
If you're uninsured, the first time you go to the doctor and can't afford to pay your bill, the government will "penalize" you.
The Administration's position is that if you're uninsured, you're a "burden" to the rest of society-- because "uninsured" means you're "self pay", and everyone knows that "self pay" is a euphemism for "can't pay".
therefore, inactivity = activity. QED
Well, I guess what I'm saying (and I'm really throwing the administration a bone here) is that at least by waiting until you've 1: gone to the doctor and 2: failed to pay your bill, that now you've engaged in this "activity" which they're all on about.
Except the administrations position is a big, fat, lie, because the REAL reason they want to force people to buy insurance, is to pay for OTHER PEOPLE's health care.
Simple clarity - you could not be closer to the truth!
If this decision holds, how many logical steps are we from justifying Directive 10-289?
Its all too delicious, because what they are really arguing about is our old friend the wheat farmer who was deemed to be subject to the Commerce Clause even though not one grain of wheat left his farm.
He was self-sufficient for wheat. He was not engaged in "commercial" activity (as the Court freely acknoweldged at the time). Only the most expansive definition of "economic" can capture eating what grows on your own land. Its really hard to strike down ObamaCare without going all the way back and striking down the seminal case for modern Commerce Clause jurisprudence.
The Sixth Circuit opinion all but begs the Court to overturn some of its previous decisions, concluding (reluctantly) that SCOTUS has put us all in such a box with those decisions that only SCOTUS can get us out.
Do I SMELL a constitutional convention on the grill? Hasn't been one in AGES. My gals would love to participate in THAT!
Dare to dream, my friend. Dare to dream.
And while you are dreaming, see if you can get us a pony too....
Well we have the horseshit - shouldn't we ought to have the pony?
Here's the other thing with Wickard that pisses me off:
The farmers consumption of his own wheat was inherently limited. He can only consume (without selling) as much as his checkens can eat.
So they could have just LEFT HIM ALONE and his impact on the wheat market would have been intrinsically limited. But NO, the government had to go nickel and dime some small-time chicken farmer and make him GROW LESS WHEAT so his total wheat production (including the amount he fed his chickens) would fit into the quota.
The fact is that even if they let people grow wheat for their own consumption, it's impact on the farm program as a whole would have been intrinsically limited. There's only so much land area that any farmer has and most won't have a lot of space to grow food for their own consumption. AND they could just lower the total wheat quotas if they thought the price was falling too much.
So the federal government had ALL SORTS of tools available to manipulate that the price of wheat, but they instead chose to go after some guy growing wheat for his own consumption on his property. because they, essentially, were a bunch of socialistic idiots with no idea how economics works.
The decision in the Wickard case wasn't bad when applied to that particular case. It's the expanded interpretation when applied to other cases that has created problems.
The wheat quotas under the AAA of 1938 weren't shoved down farmers throats. The wheat quota was set yearly, and only if the wheat supply for the year was expected to be over a certain volume. Once the quota was determined by the Sec of Agriculture, those individuals subject to the quota had the option to vote against it. If 1/3 of farmers opposed the quota, it was suspended. If farmers accepted the quota, they were subsidized for not planting over a set amount.
Filburn was double dipping. He grew more than his quota of wheat, while taking a subsidy from the feds in exchange for not growing more than what he was allowed to grow.
And the solution to that would be to remove his subsidy, not gin up some bullshit about his affecting "commerce".
"The Sixth Circuit opinion all but begs the Court to overturn some of its previous decisions..."
I would love to see Scalia reverse himself in Raich. Clarence Thomas would hopefully now be in the majority, instead of being the only sane one, like he was in Raich.
"because what they are really arguing about is our old friend the wheat farmer who was deemed to be subject to the Commerce Clause even though not one grain of wheat left his farm."
In this case, Filburn at least was a farmer who sold wheat at market. At issue was whether or not any wheat he grew for personal use, counted towards his quota under the Agricultural Adjustment Act.
Which itself was completely stupid. They could have just lowered his quota ... or lowered everyone's quotas to make up for the difference in total wheat production. They didn't HAVE to create this stupid precedent that growing something for person consumption on your own property is regulatable interstate commerce. There were other tools available.
New Deal cartelization of the markets was Winning The Future, 1930's style. It worked as far as they were concerned. Our asses have been declared conquered territory before we were even born.
Filburn got a subsidy from the feds in exchange for only growing a set amount of wheat. He didn't live up to his end of the deal, and was fined. Filburn
Farmers could opt out of the quota, and the subsidies that came with the quota. The Sec. of Agriculture determined the quota at the beginning of the year. If 1/3 of the farmers who would be subject to the act, voted in opposition to the quota, it was suspended.
Interesting, that makes it even more clear that Filburn took some positive act to enter into, not just a market, but a contractual relationship with the government.
In which case, why the fuck is Wickard v. Filburn even considered to have any precedent-setting power regarding the "substantial effects" doctrine at all?
Of course inactivity is activity, as surely as war is peace (since it's really a question of war now or war later).
WAR IS PEACE.
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY.
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
And now a collolary:
INACTIVITY IS ACTIVITY.
Can someone hook Orwell up to my generator? His post-mortem rotations will be enough to power every appliance in my house.
These judges are double-plus good.
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Obamasoc.
You left out:
PROPERTY IS THEFT.
Shorter argument for ObamaCare:
STOP RESISTING!
RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!
Eventually the correct response to this is to go limp (figuratively) and do nothing. Produce nothing but what is ordered. Take no unprescribed action. See how long it takes to sink that ship.
The only hope is there will be another society that recognizes the value of independent productivity and woos the productive away from the rotting remains. In Atlas Shrugged the only option was Mulligan's and Galt's little haven. In reality another nation-state will likely take on that role. Galt was only necessary because the rest of the world had fallen to fascism and socialism first. Rand couldn't see that a country other than the U.S. could be so productive. It also would have been a somewhat more boring story to just have all the capital and brainpower flee to another country rather than make a dramatic last stand.
So, the reasoning is that everyone is automatically engaged in the health care market by virtue of being alive.
I don't really concede that is true, since some people may die suddenly in an accident (or commit suicide) and not consume any health care in the process.
But even if it were, it still strikes me as wrong to consider "being alive" an activity, and more importantly, to consider it an activity that is subject to regulation, which is effectively what the mandates proponents are arguing.
If anyone who is alive is a health care consumer, and being a health care consumer is an "activity" that can be regulated, then ERGO "being alive is an activity that makes you subject to regulation."
When you shorten it to that basic form, it is apparent that this is a much more radical doctrine then it seems when you split it into the two component parts.
Being alive is sufficient justification for government to force you go to/send your kids to school.
Re: Tony,
You're basically saying that government can perfectly justify any barbarity it can think of.
"You're basically saying that government can perfectly justify any barbarity it can think of"
No it's not.
You guys keep using the all-or-nothing fallacy, when it's clearly ridiculous. You only make asses of yourselves when you do it.
If you guys keep refusing to acknowledge any limits on government other than some vague handwaving "within reason" bullshit, we will continue to point out the inevitable consequence of your faulty premise.
Limited by what? Shouldn't government be able to do whatever the people it governs want it to do (subject to various procedural and supermajoritarian hurdles in specific cases)?
Since I happen to know there is no etched stone from the sky to tell us what exactly we should limit government to, I strongly suspect that you just want it limited to your policy preferences.
What justifies your threat of violence to impose your policy preferences on those who do not share them?
The political coalition desirous of enacting those preferences into law winning elections because they convince a legally sufficient portion of the electorate that those policies are a good thing?
A spouse doesn't always get everything he wants out of a marriage. Compromise and accepting that living with other people means you don't always get your way is part of being a grownup.
Re: Tony,
I guess you're right. For instance, if the majority wants to kill all the Jews, or stop gays from marrying, then the government should simply aquiesce, the poor devils. No delusions of morality!
No, no, OM. You don't get it. It takes a supermajority to justify genocide.
And apparently it takes merely the forceful rhetoric of a single libertarian to prevent it.
Re: Tony,
Yeah, whatever. You still cannot escape the fact that the mob can vote barbarism just as easily as it can vote safety nets for itself. You defend the mob when they vote what you like, but when someone points out the fact that mobs decided for barbarism, you immediately invoke the government's monopoly of force.
You cannot have your cake and eat it, too, Tony. If you want to place your bets on voting people, you should do so consistently, whether these vote to kill all rich people, all gays or all Jews. The will of the people and all that, right?
OM there is even less preventing mob barbarism in your preferred system than mind. You just think you can dismiss it with a wave of the hand. What am I supposed to believe? That without democracy and government, people won't act barbaric because they'll be just so appreciative of their freedom?
false extreme dichotomy
he's also said there should be strong constitutional protections
plus there's also the option to leave, which is part of basic legitimacy
So, if 51@ of the people wanted slavery...
Shouldn't government be able to do whatever the people it governs want it to do
The modern progressive mind laid bare. Would make an excellent Team Blue t-shirt slogan, or epitaph.
"Shouldn't government be able to do whatever the people it governs want it to do..."
Seriously?
straw man
it's not "within reason"
it's as set forth in a nation's constitution and then mandated by its consensus (where there is full enfranchisement)
Are you trying to argue in circles or spirals? You basically just argued that there is no constitutionally imposed limit other than the constitution, which imposes no limit other than what a consensus agrees to Unless you want to argue that the consensus can be totally irrational and we still have to follow it, I don't see how you get out of this.
the constitution and our country is alittle more complkex than just a simple majority vote - it';s got democratic and republic elements with constitutional protections and common law protections
none of which would allow any law to be passed saying that all jews have to be killed
how about you learn a little something about law?
Never heard of the concept of the slippery slope? If they can mandate the purchase of insurance, what is stopping them from mandating something else?
Oh, they (our overlords) will be oh so reasonable, won't they?
If it really wanted to engage in barbarities, it's not going to be stopped by your heartfelt appeal to reason and decency.
It engages in barbarities every single day.
no it doesn't, you're just a shrill douche
Tell that to all the innocent people killed on a regular basis by botched SWAT raids in our wonderful war on consensual intoxication...er...drugs.
That's not what the left was saying when it came to torture.
"no it doesn't, you're just a shrill douche"
Barf.
Hey, you hit the nail on the head there, Edwin... Tony IS a shrill douche.
A) Homeschooling
B) Age range
C) Hardly ever enforced
Still, not going to school (of some kind) is inactivity that government is legally able to regulate.
State Governments.
Not the federal government.
Go. The. Fuck. Away. Hobie.
So, the reasoning is that everyone is automatically engaged in the health care market by virtue of being alive.
The best version of this argument, I think, is a little different.
Health insurance is the business of funding health care for risk pools. Regulating how this national risk pool gets funded is pretty clearly a regulation of interstate commerce.
At a national level, everyone is in the risk pool. Whether you pay for your participation in the risk pool or not, you are in the risk pool. And you can't opt out, because there is no real way to enforce an opt out. Nobody is going to punish you, or a doctor or hospital, if you get care even though you aren't insured.
Congress is regulating how this national risk pool, which everyone is part of, and which no one can opt out of, gets funded.
That's the best argument for constitutionality that I've seen.
Interesting. It seems the argument hinges on : Opt out, get care anyway, but don't pay for it. Nobody is going to punish you if you pay for the care you get, correct ?
See, I just do not buy the "risk pool" interpretation of health insurance.
People SAY that, but risk can be individually calculated, in which can an *individual* contract can be written in which ONE person makes an independent exchange with the insurance company: I pay you X amount per quarter, and in exchange, you assume the financial risk if I get sick. The X amount is specific to the individuals risks, and is calculated to be marginally more than his expected long-term healthcare expenses.
If you view health insurance in this way, there is no "risk pool", and an individuals decision to purchase health insurance or not has no effect on anyone else's insurance prices.
The only reason individuals opting out of the market can affect other people's insurance prices is (a) if insurance prices are NOT computed according to individual risk, but collectivized, and (b) if the individual has a sudden large medical cost, AND doesn't have insurance, AND doesn't pay for it via some other mechanism, AND the hospital increases costs for everyone else instead of absorbing the loss.
"The Act considered as a whole makes clear that Congress was concerned that individuals maintain their houses painted not as an end in itself, but because of the economic implications on the broader house paint market."
Obviously, the morality of forcing people to buy something simply escapes the minds of these tax-fed leeches.
Morality is make-believe.
So is your intelligence.
Stick to "PWND!"
It also fails spectacularly on the "interstate" nature of the commerce required under the commerce clause. In previous rulings the Supreme Court has stretched the meaning of interstate by noting the fungible nature of commodities.
But healthcare is not a commodity, and it is notably non-fungible. Your purchase of breast augmentation surgery in Los Angeles has no impact on the market for cataract removal in Boca Raton. They are entirely segregated markets. Even in the same field there is no interstate commerce. Your podiatrist's office is located in one specific place. He is only licensed in that one specific place. He cannot provide services across state lines. It is physically impossible.
"But healthcare is not a commodity, and it is notably non-fungible. Your purchase of breast augmentation surgery in Los Angeles has no impact on the market for cataract removal in Boca Raton. They are entirely segregated markets."
damn. Good point. Never thought of that.
There are probably a few things that effect the national market but for the most part you're right
They both use anisthetic and bandages.
yeah... I forgot that that's somehting I thought of once.
Maybe a state could pass a law creating a separate system of hospitals that has to buy all their material froom within the state and you have to live in the state to go there, and it'd be exempt from all federal regulations. And so in theory it would be exempt from the "iunterstate" part of the commerce clause
They'd argue that the raw components were made or moved interstate commerce, or that people will move from states with certain types of health care to other states, etc.
Look at 18 USC 922(q) for an example of an attempt at justification for barring a person from possessing a firearm within 1000 feet of schools. For kicks, try to find something that can't be regulated using their boilerplate:
(q)(1) The Congress finds and declares that -
(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a
pervasive, nationwide problem;
(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate
movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;
(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce
and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools,
as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the
Judiciary (!3) the House of Representatives and the Committee on
the Judiciary of the Senate;
(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its
component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which
they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;
(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary
citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through
certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime
and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children
to school for the same reason;
(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has
resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse
impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the
United States;
(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost
impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves - even
States, localities, and school systems that have made strong
efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find
their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability
of other States or localities to take strong measures; and
(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce
clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact
measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's
schools by enactment of this subsection.
(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
Wasn't that law struck down by Lopez v Morrison?
The 1990 version was. What I pasted was the 1996 version where congress added that boilerplate as a direct response to the court case.
It's also a beautiful illustration of the way that simply pretending that some part of something is involved in interstate commerce justifies regulating any behavior or interaction.
I think I understand now. Not doing anything is doing something. And when I am not doing something, that is an activity. So, when I am not active, I am active - and when I am active, I am not inactive. So that means A is not always A - it is sometimes B, and vice versa, except when it is not, and then we have to consult the Supremos. Do I have that about right?
"That is why most Americans manage the risk of not having the assets to pay for health care by purchasing medical insurance."
Wrong, most Americans have health insurance because it is a pre-tax benefit paid for by their employer. And it's only provided by the employer because there is a tax deduction to the employer and the employee doesn't have to pay taxes on it.
And those situations only exist because of federal wage controls that prevented companies from paying more to attract employees.
So we have our benevolent overlords to thank for every step on the way to the creation of the current circumstance. Nice job, G-men!
THAT is exactly right, and alot of educated, intelligent people don't know that...'cause when ask them, they don't know.
The companies also have the benefit of bulk buying power and can command a lower price per person than an individual could.
An individual person looking to buy insurance will face high premiums and no tax break. I always thought that the tax break should be removed from employers or granted equally to individual buyers.
Over time, the number of people who buy their own insurance could only grow. Insurance companies would offer tiered services and the competition would force rates to drop.
It would pretty much look the way car insurance does now.
Decoupling insurance from employers also would have eliminated most of the preexisting condition issues.
I've had one insurer (Progressive) since June 2000 despite changing jobs 10 or so times.
Imagine if you changed car insurance with each job-the new insurer would quite likely want some level of proof that the claimed damage happened while you were covered under the new insurer.
At this juncture, Libertarians are relying the "hypothetical-totally-inactive-in-the-healthcare-market-man." Now, such a creature may exist in reality -- maybe some Grizzly Adams-type character wandering the Idaho panhandle. But, until they find this guy and get him named as a plaintiff in a legal challenge to the ACA, they won't have much luck.
Generally, you can't challenge the constitutionality of laws using an unrealized hypothetical situation or person. If, for instance, there is a law that gives life without parole for stealing five dollars or more, and you get caught stealing a truck full of diamonds, you can't nullify the law as a violation of cruel-and-unusual punishment because it would violate the eighth amendment as applied to somebody who stole seven dollars. You would actually have to be convicted on the basis of stealing seven dollars before you could bring that challenge.
The individual mandate, as written, applies to "inactivity" in the sense that it could, hypothetically, apply to some one who was totally inactive in the health care market. That means somebody who doesn't ever buy insurance, who doesn't ever pay direct for any health care, who doesn't ever get any government help for health care, and who never uses up any of the free/charitable private care available.
That ain't me.
That ain't anybody I know.
That ain't anybody I have ever met before in my entire life.
That ain't anybody who is reading this thread.
"Inactivity" if constitutionally cognizable, isn't some piecemeal carve-out around "activity." True inactivity means total inactivity. If you are at all "active," then you are subject to regulation. Even if you drive a car once a year, the government can require you to buy insurance. Even if you hand-roll a single package of cigarettes for sale, the government can require you to put a warning label on that package.
"STOP RESISTING!"
It's me!
This would make sense if we made just one payment for health insurance, and were covered for life. But the mandate forces you to pay for it every year. I'm sure you know PLENTY of people who went a year without seeing a doctor.
Theoretically, you could get lifetime coverage with a lump-payment if you wanted. There is no constitutional rule that "activity" has to be measured by some fixed period of time.
Forcing people to engage in commerce is un-Constitutional, Danny. Despite what you and your ilk believe, that is and always will be true.
But if you do engage in commerce, the government can regulate you in ways that further engage you in commerce. Buy a car, and you might be required to buy insurance, buy a seatbelt, buy airbags, etc.
Would you be in favor of people being forced to buy a new car every X number of years, without regard to their ability to afford it or - more importantly - maybe they don't WANT a new car?
Why not force non-drivers to buy car insurance anyway?
Good luck convincing a blind man he needs a motorcycle policy, by the way.
Re: Danny,
Awwww! And you came up with that one yourself? Oh, you snookums! I can pinch your little rosy cheeks to pieces!
Danny, stop being ridiculous. The fact that people use ANY service does not justify making people BUY that service at gunpoint.
No, you challenge their unconstitutionality by showing that the Constitution does not allow what the laws purport to allow. That does not make the Constitution the sole determinant of reality. Slavery is evil whether the Constitution allowed it or not, for instance.
There are no guns involved. It's not a crime not to be insured. It's a different tax structure. It amounts to a fine. But the exact same thing could be achieved by giving a rebate to people who are insured. Glenn Beck has motive for being hysterical over this. That doesn't mean you have to be.
Re: Tony,
In which world are you living? When it comes to the relationship between government and you, the interface is always a gun - pointed at you.
And there are no guns involved in making the person pay the fine, right?
Good. Better the government in which I have a say than the rape gang next door in which I do not.
Just like all the rest of the taxes you owe.
Because the people on this site are always clamoring for taxes?
Re: Tony,
Really? So I guess you will then acknowledge that what you asserted: "There are no guns involved,"
was a lie.
Will you?
No. Not being insured won't result in guns, as it's not a crime. Not paying taxes is, though.
plus depending on how much you owe they may not put you in jail, they can just get the money from your bank account by court order
because Tony just got smacked!!!
". But the exact same thing could be achieved by giving a rebate to people who are insured"
My understanding is that that's flat out wrong. The mandate, from what I remember, states that if you don't buy health insurance, there is a flat fee of like $1,000 regardless of your income.
If the mandate were a function of income, then maybe it'd fall under the 16th amendment, but from what I remember it's not.
It wouldn't work that way. If large numbers of people do not buy health insurance, then the fines (rebate) would have to be increased until they do.
Under current inerpretation of the taxing power, you can't do that. You cannot make a tax punitive or keep increasing it to get the desire behavior.
Just ain't so, Mex. There are a lot of laws on the books that I don't like, but I can't just walk into court and file a constitutional challenge to them based on them being "wrong." I'd have to break those laws, or have those laws applied to me in the specific way that I think they are unconstitutional, before I would have standing to bring a lawsuit to strike them down.
Re: Danny,
Yes, you can. That's how the suit against the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was brought.
No, actually, that guy had a daughter who was in school during recitation of the pledge. I do not have a kid, so I could not bring that "Under God" suit.
Do you then have any suggestions for limits on governmental power other than what "the right people in charge" find to be "reasonable?" Any guiding principle besides mob rule or enlightened despotism?
As I said below, Grizzly Adams is the "limiting principle," but not one that will make you happy.
So are you happy being owned?
I am no less happy paying taxes that help low-income people get health care than I am paying taxes to have police who protect the private wealth of men like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.
I am no less happy paying taxes that help single moms get their kids into pre-school than I am paying taxes that go to the enforcement of contracts of adhesion in favor of MasterCard and Visa.
I believe that wealth protection and creditor protection are no more legitimate or desirable as a taxpayer-funded "core government functions" than ensuring fellow citizens with basic decency and public amenities.
In that sense, I am at ease, and ill at ease, with "being owned" -- that being subject to majority rule in public affairs. I think if rich people want me to kick in for the police protection that keeps their limos and their gated mansions safe, they should have to kick in for some of my social priorities, too. It's called democracy. The results are quite mixed, to be sure, but I'm still willing to give it a shot.
Apparently some don't mind being a serf just so long as everyone else has to be one too.
More precisely, I don't mind being a serf for the poor any more than being a serf for the rich or the middle class.
don't forget to kiss the hem.
You can be a serf for them all you want, but why do I have to?
The Sixth Circuit just rejected the government's arguments that the plaintiffs lacked standing to sue, you fucking idiot.
They had standing to sue, and they had standing to lose. They don't have standing to make the "Reasonoid" argument, so they shoot higher, and they miss.
Translation: "Despite me spending four tedious paragraphs articulating a standing argument that the court emphatically rejected, and despite having my nose rubbed in my shit, I'm going to continue to pretend that I know something about the law."
I have "standing" to make an argument to a court that the top tax bracket inhibits my incentive to earn more money, so I should be allowed to challenge the top tax bracket as unconstitutionally confiscatory, even though I have never earned close to the top tax bracket. The court will reject that argument as to me. I'll lose. That will be a "precedent" as to people situated like me.
Now, if some guy who really does earn in the top tax bracket comes along, and he brings suit, and he argues confiscation, will my "precedent" kill his suit? No. He's got a more viable claim that I had.
Same here. If some Grizzly Adams comes in from the woods and says "hey, my only medicine is tree bark and honeycomb," he can make an argument that these plaintiffs couldn't. He ought not be precluded by the precedent set in this case. A true "off-the-grid" plaintiff should be able to make an "inactivity" argument that an ordinary person cannot.
This is what happened with the Amish and truancy laws. Everybody else lost truancy challenges, but the Amish, because of how they were situated, were able to get the Supreme Court to exempt them from truancy laws. But you couldn't just challenge a truancy law facially based on the argument that some hypothetical Amish-type person -- but not you -- could be unconstitutionally impacted by the truancy law.
that's not how it works
you most certainly can challenge a law on its face
and furthermore your talk about a hypothetical is inaccurate. The fact of the matter is NOT buying health insurance is indeed, NOT buying health insurance. I.e. yo're not even doing anything
if anything, it's the other way around - YOUR proposition is the hypothetical. That is, all the substitute decisions somebody's making are solely hypothetical as you propose them. Furthermore, there definitely ARE a bunch of young people who just have not yet thought much about it or made any firm decisions, that's one of the advantages of being young, you can ignore stuff like that.
Not buying health insurance is interstate economic activity--you are a person with a body with a not insignificant risk of needing medical treatment at some point. Your so-called inaction transfers financial risk to other people, including people in other states, increasing their premiums.
Re: Tony,
The same if I don't buy fizzy cola: I am a living body that some day may be thirsty.
Thus spoke the financially and economics challenged.
You cannot cause risk to someone else by your inaction, dolt! Only the person that is facing the choices incurs in RISK, not someone else.
But RC Dean above explained eloquently that you very much can. If you do not enter a risk pool voluntarily by acquiring insurance, you are entered automatically for free, forcing others to pay for the care you may receive.
Why are you defending freeloading?
Re: Tony,
You're drawing wrong conclusions, Tony. It is one thing to enter a risk pool, quite another to have Big Daddy Government mandating that you receive services regardless of the fact you entered the pool or not, which is what is happening with current laws. The problem resides not in activity or inactivity, it resides on government mandating that services be provided, regardless of cost.
You cannot justify forcing people enter into a risk pool based on a situation that is totally of the government's making. It's like making the girl marry her rapist.
That situation being guaranteed emergency medical treatment regardless of ability to pay? That evil government!
When I was younger, I worked as a contract employee and chose to forgoe health insurance in order to make more money. It was a calculated risk and had there been a medical emergency, I assumed that I would be on the hook to pay for it and be in debt for a long time with my wages garnished to pay for it. Why the devil does everyone assume that if one doesn't have insurance, that their medical cost should automatically be covered by someone else?
You have to love the chain of events.
In the name of compassion, doing the right thing, or the "social contract", the government demands that hospitals treat everyone, then they agree to pick up some of those costs.
Finally, they assert that because they pay for hospital visits, they have authority to bar your from various activities and, now, mandate that you purchase insurance to prevent you from obtaining care without paying for it. You can obtain care and medical services without paying only because the government has made it that way.
Imagine if grocery stores were forced to operate this way.
Forbidding stores to deny food transfers to hungry people would cause the stores to lose money until they passed those costs onto paying customers, causing at least a few more people to be unable to pay, accelerating/escalating the cycle a bit. In comes the government to subsidize this to help stop some of the losses the stores are facing.
Add in the insult of the government incrementally forbidding people from doing various things on the basis that any costs incurred will be imposed on everyone thus justifying the government's foray into areas it would otherwise have no reason/justification.
Ie., the government might forbid yard work on hot days with the reasoning that strenuous work increases calorie and hydration needs and will cause people to buy/'need' more food/water, thus costing the government more money to pay for people who don't pay.
After a while it's realized that some people will never pay and government costs will quite likely never stop climbing. So, the government decides we all have to purchase food insurance or some sort of prepaid card from a licensed grocery store.
forcing others to pay for the care you may receive.
The heart of the argument in favor of the Mandate.
yeah those are ways that my decisions could effect people interstate
but the fact of the matter is NOT doing something still is not commerce no matter what you say. We write laws down for a reason.
The argument is that being alive automatically enters you into the risk pool.
So being alive is an "action" that subjects you to regulation.
I don't think most people are comfortable with the idea that living is an "act" that can subject to to regulation.
I don't think most people are comfortable with the idea that living is an "act" that can subject to to regulation.
Because anyone who isn't a statist fucktard knows that the only escape from such legislation is to die.
You can challenge First Amendment laws facially, rather than as applied, but you usually need standing to challenge in other contexts.
Danny, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection.
But it's overruled. Because you have failed, as so many others have failed, to provide the limiting principle to this legislation.
And to credit a few administration supporters, some have finally begun to admit that there is no limiting principle, only that there is no need (yet) to regulate all activity- or specifically, there's no utilitarian need to force you to buy broccoli...
Admit it, regulation has no limiting principle, only range-of-the-moment pragmatic limits.
Where in the constitution does it say a "limiting principle" must be applied to laws?
Re: Tony,
Here:
IX Amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"
THAT is the limiting principle.
But you don't have a right not to be subject to laws, even ones you don't like.
Re: Tony,
Yes, you have a right not to be subjected to laws you don't like. That's how America came to being - remember?
No, I wasn't around then, but if elementary school history serves me right, the philosophical complaint was being subject to laws without representation in government. You have representation, and you have to follow laws, even ones you don't like.
Re: Tony,
That was the complaint behing the Stamp Act, Tony. People settled on America to escape laws they did not like, in Britain.
So go settle somewhere.
I suggest southern suriname, low population, plenty of raw land
if libertarianism is as great as these feebs say they should have a country in no time
in reality it'd only be guys and they'd be playing ookie cookie with each other within 2 months in between whining circle jerk discussions about government
when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security
I think this says you're wrong. In fact, I know it does.
Passing a minor change to national healthcare policy does not constitute an abuse and usurpation, no matter what the voices on the radio tell you.
Tony, I'm so sorry to be the one to burst the little bubble of happy ignorance you seem to live in, but: No one has to do anything - except live or die.
The supreme court ruled against nullification nearly two centuries ago.
No, you don't have that right under the constitution of the united states.
The constitution is the limiting Principle, Tony, otherwise the framers would have given us a blank, Big Chief tablet and a set of pencils.
Well, that's how the constitution started. And the only constitution we have is the one that allows for a broad interpretation of the commerce clause. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's the way it is.
You're an interesting study Tony. Yet you take such a narrow view of the first amendment, and I'll bet an extremely narrow view of the second. I'm scared to ask how narrow your view is on the 4th and 5th.
I have an almost limitless view of the 1st amendment! I just don't believe money is equivalent to speech.
The 2nd I'd repeal.
The 4th I think has been eroded beyond recognition--I'm really big on the 4th. The 5th is a little more protected but I'm still really big on rights of the defendant.
It's not inconsistent at all. The operating principle behind all my policy preferences is ensuring justice, security, fairness, and equality under the law for everyone--and I think the little guy needs the most help with this.
Re: Tony,
Which would have no effect, as the 9th and 14th would still protect people's right to possess firearms.
Does the 9th plus the 14th give citizens any right they ever might want to have?
Because I want a right to health care.
You have a right to go get healthcare already, fucking retard.
Not if I'm poor and undocumented, fucking genius.
A right to health care would require slavery, so, no.
Where in the 9th and 14th amendments does it say "Unless Mensan believes it would lead to slavery".
Your constitutional positions need to be consistent. This one clearly isn't.
It's not my belief that it would lead to slavery. Slavery would be a necessary precondition to guarantee a right to health care. Health care is a service provided by an individual; that is, it is his or her labor, the product of his or her body and mind. If you receive those services without remitting compensation then that person has been deprived property. If that person may not refuse to provide you with their labor, which they cannot if you have a right to that product, then he is deprived of liberty.
We have a right to vote, but only a moron would describe the people whose work allows us to vote as slaves.
We have a right to own private property, but only a moron would describe the people whose work allows us to preserve our ownership as slaves.
You are wrong.
I want a right to health care.
You have a broken definition of "right" if you think it includes anything that would require other people's resources.
And this libertarian argument is described in the constitution where?
Oh jeez Tony come on
you taslking about Citizens United v. FCC?
oh come on
Clearly they don't have the write to stop speech. They do have a right TO CHANGE THEIR TAX STATUS because of the laws involving tax status and what different entities may do to keep their status, but not the right to stop them from speaking altogether
why isn't the disincentive of changing the status enough for you?
The Tenth Amendment, Tony.
I know, you and your kind ignore it, but it's right there between numbers 9 and 11.
The same precedent that has broadly interpreted the CC has also relegated the 10th amendment to platitude status. Sorry.
then that Sounds like an admission that the federal courts aren't really following the constitution, are they?
The constitution isn't anything but what the courts say it is.
really?
Part of law is that you DO have to follow it according to what it actually says. If we stop pretending words have meaning then we effectively don't have law
I mean really, Tony? Here's a serious issue, some of the SCOTUS justices have been pretty old, and there's evidence that they had been going senile during their reign. I believe I read a "The Straight Dope" article that summarized it well.
What if one of these senile old guys really writes something nuts? Are we really suppose to just pretend it's suddenly law? Like, I have to make him banana tapioca pudding acfcording to the 1st amendment? Or tattoos are banned because it's a jewish conspiracy?*
*trying to come up with crazy shit a senile old man would say
Understand I'm not endorsing anything about our system. Perhaps when life expectancy was closer to 30 it made sense to have lifetime appointment of judges.
The fact remains, however, that our system has the Supreme Court as the final arbiter of what the constitution means. There is no outside authority, is there? Surely you can agree that the vast differences found even on this thread make the "appeal to plain English" a little flimsy. It means what they say it means, whether they choose to interpret it sanely or not.
Now your scenario sounds like a constitutional crisis in the making, which would be OK--we need a lot of fundamental reforms.
"It means what they say it means, whether they choose to interpret it sanely or not."
So you're saying that we should follow blatantly absurd orders?
"There is no outside authority, is there?"
Well, the executive could not follow a judicial ruling. A member of the legislature could try to unilaterally create a separate court. People could just widespread disobey.
If you're saying that we should listen to the SCOTUS no matter what the ruling, then you're saying that they're dictators with absolute power, and rightly so, which would be a very illiberal position.
Remember, at that hypothetical point we're taking about the breakdown of our very system of governance, and clearly some drastic measures would need to be taken.
I was going to say don't be silly, but then I remembered we're in the midst of just such a breakdown. Washington was smart to warn of factionalism--it's paralyzed our country's ability to do anything, to the extent that the global economy is at risk of shock.
Perhaps when life expectancy was closer to 30 it made sense to have lifetime appointment of judges.
Dude, if you weren't so ignorant, you'd know that even when average life expectancy was only about 30 it sure as hell didn't apply to the elitist class from which judges were drawn.
This is pretty sad Tony. Liberals are supposed to respect law and order, and you're pretty much outright telling me that laws don't exist, that we're to be a nation of men and not laws.
Re: Edwin,
Just like government engages in exchange and businesses engage in taking?
I only ever said that governments engage in what could be called exchange to the same extent that businesses engage in the same. And you never really refuted what I said. All you seem to be abkle to do is insulkt me.
This is pretty sad Tony. Liberals are supposed to respect law and order
But you're mistaken. Tony (and other like him) aren't liberals - they're leftists enthralled with authority and power, all enabled by the ability to remove money from people for various reasons.
It has nothing to do with 'helping the little guy', and everything to do with being in charge.
Viewed through that lens, their comments are perfectly consistent.
The most probable "limiting principle," as you put it, is the Grizzly Adams dude, but that is a very weak limitation, if it exists, so I don't think it will make you happy.
You've missed the point.
The lack of limiting principle means that the government can force you to buy anything... and has been argued as such by administration hacks. They just assure us that they won't do it because at this moment in time, there's no utilitarian need-- ie, the right people are in charge.
The old "Brocolli Argument" raises an interesting question, but it is not really in issue under the ACA.
The individual mandate is one integrated component of a much larger regulatory apparatus, the great bulk of which fits under the commerce clause without quibble. The question is whether the individual mandate, with its limited but crucial facilitative function in this larger apparatus, fits under the commerce clause.
That may be a debatable question, but it is nothing like the question of whether the government, by fiat simpliciter, could just order you to buy a product in commerce as an exercise of its power to regulate commerce.
The only way that a "broccoli mandate" could be made analogous is if individual storage of a fixed set of food provisions was made part of a government-legislated emergency food preparedness program.
with its limited but crucial facilitative function in this larger apparatus
By which Danny means, "It permits the Democrats to pretend that they didn't actually increase anybody's taxes by way of achieving universal coverage."
Yo, I have stood by the "walks-like-a-duck" theory on the tax question all along.
The individual mandate is nothing but a 16th-Amendment revenue measure as far as I'm concerned, no matter what label the politicians tried to put on it in press conferences and committee meetings. It's like Social Security, which nobody wants to acknowledge as a simple regressive tax unconnected in any legally binding way to future benefits, even though that is all it is.
Danny, the problem with your objection is that you are asserting that everyone is active in the healthcare market, by virtue of being alive. Yet most people, commonly, have a philosophical problem with people being forced to do things just because they are alive. Positive duties to act are generally voluntairily assumed, or imposed as punishments. They are not things that just "come with" living. At least they are not legally enshrined and enforced as law. They might be considered moral duties, but not legal ones. The examples you can think of (say conscription) are generally regarded as morally problematic.
No. Grizzly Adams is "alive." He has a true, bona fide claim to "inactivity." Most of us don't.
The present plaintiffs are not trying to assert a right to be "inactive" today, tomorrow, and forever. They are asserting a right to come and go as they please in the newly-federally-regulated community-rated insurance market. But that creates a big adverse-selection problem for the federal system and it is going to be hard to get the judiciary behind the plaintiffs' position.
The only way a person could really make a rock-solid inactivity claim is to be committed to inactivity, so that they will not pose a threat of becoming active at some future point and throwing the new community-rating system out of whack.
People like you are smooshing together liberty arguments with the inactivity arguments. You want the liberty to participate or not participate in the insurance market AS YOU GO ALONG. And while you are not in the market, you want to be shielded by the notion of "inactivity." And when you want to enter the market you want "freedom of contract." But that just ain't the law. At best, you could gain the protection of "inactivity" by going Amish and convincing the court that you are entirely outside of the health care market for good. (Still no guarantees, though.)
No, I'm not asking for the right to come and go in a community-rated insurance market.
My position is that IF the government wishes to impose regulations that make the insurance market unviable by creating adverse selection problems, that that has nothing to do with me. They have no right to compell me to participate in the insurance market in order to mitigate the perverse effects of their own regulatory scheme. The individuals have nothing to do with it. They didn't create the regulations that created the perverse effects. They are being forced to clean up someone else's mess.
The only remedy you could ask a court for on that basis is to to get out and stay out of the medical services market for the rest of your life, with no option to return. The government can fxck up the marketplace all it wants to; that doesn't mean you have some God-Given right to opt in on what you like and opt out on what you don't.
Finally. Now, when my asshole doctor asks me if I'm physically active, I can say, "yes, every second of every day."
Plus, with all this activity, I'll be able to eat whatever the fuck I want without worrying about weight gain. How do I calculate all these calories I'm burning?
so people who don't comply will be self-complying, therefore technically complying?
That would be the consistent logical conclusion.
THAT is a great idea. Could this be extended to 'self-regulation'?
IOW, could it be possible that all individuals and companies, simply by being, are 'self-regulating', and therefore self-complying, removing any basis for government regulation?
I know, since virtually all people will see a newspaper headline, everybody should be required to buy a subscription. Only to an accredited rag, of course.
Consider it thanks for the campaign contribs, nytimes and wapo.
if this reasoning holds then congress will have unlimited economic regulatory power.
The judicial system has long been overstepping its bounds vs. the legislature and executive by stretching common sense and the meanings of words, on both the federal and local level. At some point some member of the executive or legislature somewhere is going to have to stand up and deny a court's supposed reasoning.
If referendums become easier in states, we'll find more and more judges overturning the people's wishes. The audacity is appaling, overturning something a significant majority votes for.
Here are just a few gems:
In one case a lady sued a somewhat-nearby newly created pig farm for nuisance and won, when that pig farm was created in an agricultural zone that already existed when she bought the house. That is, the voters explicitly said that that land could be used for agricultural purposes, and the court said no, they owe damages.
And sometimes they refuse to apply basic common sense. In one case, a lady screwed a guy while he wqas passed out drunk and gfot pregnant. The guys still; had to pay child support. Any element of choice or liability or knowable risk was absent from that situation, but still the judge only applied precedent and m,ade the guy pay. Every judge has the power every time to make a new precedent, but when they clearly should, they don't
Hell, even alimony has barely any judicial reasoning behind it.
This is also why our liability system is so screwed up
The judicial system is supposed to be the one that stops over-reaching from the legislature (in a republic) and apply common sense to issue. It rarely does anything of the sort. The only thing I remember like that is when that city in California tried to outright ban tattoo parlors and the court said that was well outside of the interest of health, wealth, or morals as per police power under common law.
Re: Edwin,
I am certainly not interested in your family's anecdotes.
Stop being such a dick.
I don't think "common sense" is meant to be in the toolbox for judges. At least precedent outweighs it. The fact is, if the individual mandate is ruled unconstitutional then there are innumerable laws that would have to be undone. It's just the case that the CC is that widely interpreted.
Re: Tony,
That much they have proved for the past 220 years.
Indeed, the "a judge said so" criteria pretty much trumps rationality, reason, principles, humanity, logical discourse, intelligence, knowledge, epistemology...
Knowing you as I do, when you say "rationality, reason, principles, humanity, logical discourse, intelligence, knowledge, epistemology" what you mean is "whatever my opinion is."
Re: Tony,
If you say so, Mr. "case law opinion trumps everything else" guy.
The individual mandate IS unconstitutional.
Stop pretending otherwise.
That hasn't been decided yet.
WHile I'm no absolutist or objectivist, in the realms of science and law, the focus of the language and the rhetoric is narrow enough that there are plenty of cases where there is no ambiguity.
If someone were to say that when hydrogen burns it doesn't create water, they'd be provably wrong.
Similarly, given what the constitution actually says, the obamacare mandate is in fact unconstitutional.
The fact that SCOTUS had already "set precedent" before by making stuff up about the constitution doesn't change that.
It can't be "in fact" unconstitutional until the matter is settled, probably by the Supreme Court. Does that sound pedantic? I just don't believe in declaring things constitutional or not based on anything other than the means by which the system itself decides these things. Plain English or not, there is no outside arbiter.
I'm not saying they aren't the arbiters I'm saying they are often full of shit.
We have all these systems and precedents but at the end of the day you have to recognize that words have meanings and some things are just ludicrous.
like I said elsewhere, would you follow the orders of a senile judge that were clearly nonsense? What if Gary Busey (or someone like him) became a judge?
doubtless the deliberate absurd stretching of laws has been used to brutally opress people at some point. I don't know that much history but if I read something within the next year or so I'll definitely remember it for this issue
I don't really agree that this has been the case, but then I'm OK with broad federal powers (it's the local laws you have to worry about with respect to individual liberty, imo). In the end the only thing preventing a runaway like you're describing is the inherent system of checks and balances. I'm kind of surprised it's been as stable as it has.
that's kind of what I'm saying, it hasn't been THAT stable. The wheat-farmer precedent was clearly complete nonsense, as was the postal service barring other private ones from competing precedent, just to name a few.
It's not the worst thing in the world, but I do believe the judicial system both state and federal has kind of become fucking nonsense. Read my comment about that upthread.
If the courts are smart, they'll realize the folly of forcing people to buy things.
no, but there is such a thing as the absurdity doctrine, which does imply that the intent of the law matters
and they do have to use their own common sense when CREATING precedent. Precedent isn't everything, judges can create their own precedent, and clearly the whole idea of liability is meant to cause people to pay when they're ACTUALLY at fault.
It's unfortunate that ACTUAL guilt and liability have become totally removed from the legal process. But it's supposed to be there, and you know it, Tony.
That reminds me of a case involving a former co-worker of mine. He had lived in Florida for 13 years when he received a letter from the State of Ohio saying that he owed them 13 years of back child support payments. Turns out his ex-girlfriend had gotten pregnant shortly before he moved away, and had the kid 8 months after he had left. She never made any attempt to contact him, but when she filed for welfare she listed him as the father, so the state paid the child support payments, and 13 years later finally tracked him down for reimbursement.
After a failed suit to gain visitation of the son he never knew he had, one of the mother's relatives told him that he probably wasn't the father anyhow. He then filed to contest paternity, and the DNA test showed that he definitely was not the father. That got him off the hook for child support from that point forward, but the judge ruled that he still owed the state for the back payments, and that he was not entitled to a refund for the 2 years of payments he had made during the legal battles.
"the text of the Commerce Clause does not acknowledge a constitutional distinction between activity and inactivity, and neither does the Supreme Court."
I am not a violent man, but there are days when I wish nature to be cruel to certain people.
Actually nature has been - it's why certain people are such morons. 🙂
Glad to see the commerce clause is being re-interpreted. It was much to narrow before. We need to have it expanded before we can adopt a system of rational planning at the commanding heights of the economy--its our only hope of catching up with China.
Your spoofness is showing.
The commerce clause gives Congress power to regulate interstate commerce. It does not give Congress the power to regulate any other activity, regardless of the activity's effect on commerce.
Not according to commerce clause case law.
Re: Tony,
"Some judge said..."
The end of discussion for the intellectually challenged.
Better than "Old Mexican declared on a blog."
Re: Tony,
Wouldn't that be your opinion?
The commerce clause was abused many decades ago, and once that Pandora's box got opened, it's been open season on even INTRAstate commerce.
But, hey, who wouldn't expect a statist to fellate the Commerce Clause?
I could actually be sold on the "inactivity is activity" argument, but only because my mind has been warped by math classes where I was taught to think of zero as being just like all those other numbers that actually reflect actual quantities. I'm not sure PPACA is unconstitutional, I just think it's an extremely poor piece of legislation that is going to cause all kinds of problems and not solve any of the problems it is purported to solve.
What I don't get is how they could be regulating interstate activity when you can't even buy health insurance across state lines.
Dude, think of doing nothing as a null set.
Because you have failed, as so many others have failed, to provide the limiting principle to this legislation.
Activity/inactivity is not a good limiting principle, unless (again) you are willing to go all the way back and throw out most of modern Commerce Clause jurisprudence.
Here's the problem. The "inactivity" at issue is inactivity in the markets being regulated (health care, health insurance, whatever).
But vast swathes of regulation consist of mandates that you buy goods or services that you would not otherwise buy. A power plant would be "inactive" in the pollution control market except for the EPA regs; a manufacturer would be inactive in the safety equipment market except for OSHA.
If you say that the government doesn't have the authority to force you to be active in a given market, you have shut down quite a bit of the federal government. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I don't think the courts will be very excited about it.
"willing to go all the way back and throw out most of modern Commerce Clause jurisprudence"
ok
"A power plant would be "inactive" in the pollution control market except for the EPA regs; a manufacturer would be inactive in the safety equipment market except for OSHA"
But such regulations are contingent on doing something in the first place, namely, running a plant. They're not contingent on DOING NOTHING, like the obamacare mandate.
You see the difference, EVERY SINGLE PERSON NO MATTER WHAT THEY"RE DOING has to buy health insurance under the mandate. The EPA requires you to do certain pollution control things IF you're running a power plant.
You're "running" a human body.
OK now you;re just being silly Tony
unless you meant that in terms of the fact that you're making healthcare decisions? In which case the point still stands: not doing something isn't commerce
Someone can grow a weed plant, place it in your living room, and all you have to do is sit there to be breaking federal law (which has been affirmed in court as justified by the CC).
yeah, and they're IN FACT wrong according to the actual text of the constitution and if you're doing it in California with a proper license.
Words have meaning Tony
You have to allow that person to enter your home for them to put a marijuana plant in your living room.
But such regulations are contingent on doing something in the first place, namely, running a plant.
The objection to ObamaCare depends (implicitly) on defining markets pretty narrowly for purposes of determining activity/inactivity. The argument is that you are not active in healthcare/health insurance markets, not that you are not active in any market.
So I don't see how the "conditional" nature of other mandates saves them from the limiting principle. If Congress can't require that you become active in a market, then it lacks that power, period, regardless of whether you are active in some other market.
well the thing is I guess they would say that the things they regulate are part of those markets, becasue for the most part they are. Pollution control is indeed part of running a plant. Clean Disposal of materials and safety precautions with pesticides are part of running a farm, etc.
the other part of the limiting principle is of course "interstate".
As a practical matter I've always been for technocratic reguation being state level, becuase different states are in fact vastly different. For example, here in New Jersey, we have a building code specifically dealing with upgrading old structures, because we have so many old structures in this state.
If the feds were to regulate building codes they'd probably only use the typical ICC code and fuck us over.
Every power plant disposes of pollution somehow (and this is an absolute, it's not "virtually every"), and the method of pollution disposal inherently affects interstate commerce.
well, not the solid waste like fly ash, certainly at least not if you're not near a border and there's no chance of cross-border groundwater contamination
anyway I stand by what I said above from a normative standpoint, technocratic regulations are better done at the state/local level
vast swathes of regulation consist of mandates that you buy goods or services that you would not otherwise buy
Only if you have already made some affirmative choice to become involved in SOME market that is subject to regulation.
Power plants are *already* in the energy production markets.
The mandates defenders say that everyone is already active in the healthcare market. Yet that "activity" comes about by virtue of being BORN, which is not a voluntary decision. Nobody is allowed to CHOOSE whether to enter the healthcare market in the first place. They are simply being told "You're alive! Nyah! Nyah! You're in the healthcare market! We can regulate you!"
Children don't have to pay the individual mandate, and by remaining in the US after age 18 you are signifying that you intend to be part of the national health care market. If you don't want to be subject to national health care regulation, you're free to move to Canada.
Turning 18 isn't a voluntary choice either.
They don't have national health care regulation in Canada?
Fuck you, Hobie.
Upcoming Congressional declarations:
You must buy cheese from Minnesota. You need food. Cheese is a food. And Minnesota is broke.
You must poop in only government run bathrooms. Everyone poops. Poop disposal costs money. Sewer systems are too difficult to manage. So we must all now poop centrally.
Everyone must now buy bottled water. Drinking water from a stream deprives water producers of economic activity. And stream water may be contaminated, leading to illnesses which cost citizens who are mandated to pay for your healthcare.
How would you like to be a czar?
WHY WON'T YOU STOP ARGUING WITH ME AND JUST GIVE THE DNC ABSOLUTE POWER?!?!?!
I don't think so. As near as I can tell the current commerce clause rules would mean that you'd need the entire staff to be trained in state. If you hire a doctor from out-of-state then you're affecting interstate commerce. There is no escape from the commerce clause if Obamacare stands.
It doesn't need to! It has nothing to do with activity or inactivity. Congress has the authority to regulate one specific type of activity.
"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;"
That's it! Any activity, inactivity, economic decision, thought, or proclivity that is not the act of exchanging or buying and selling commodities is not commerce. Anything that is not commerce does not fall under congressional regulatory authority under the commerce clause. It's not that complicated!
Mensan,
The term "commerce" does not have that narrow meaning, particularly when you look at it historically. "Commerce" is really a term indicating "interactions between" entities. You really can't build an argument around the "lexical" semantics here. You need to pay attention to the entire clause, at least. And even then, the strict textualist approach runs into some ambiguities. Like it or not, language is just not as precise as you are pretending.
That's one possible meaning of the word, but it's clearly not what the authors meant. This is a case of lexical ambiguity, not the semantic ambiguity that textualism attempts to remove. A regulation on operators of power plants doesn't apply to a kid using a potato as a battery for his science project, despite the fact he's operating a "plant" that generates power.
I grant it means trade, or economic activity. The word commerce did have common usage as these broad meanings at the time, but it's too cute by half for me to buy that's the right meaning here.
But it doesn't matter for this discussion, because the main word is "regulate." It meant to make rules about, and rules can be mandates. So to make rules (which includes mandates) about commerce includes making mandates about commerce.
Commerce has always meant trade. The Latin root is merx, merchandise. Commercium: to trade merchandise together. The later definitions regard purely social interactions, particularly the exchange of ideas; or sexual intercourse. Surely, you're not proposing that the Constitution allows Congress to regulate sexual intercourse or intellectual exchange. Certain words are very precise, and since most of the framers of the Constitution were well versed in Latin, I'm very confident that they meant that word to be understood as trade. Especially since the only other mention of commerce is to specify that states may not establish trade barriers against any other state.
Is the specific word important?
In a word, no.
The everyday meaning of the term "activity" encompasses the making of choices. The making of a choice is an activity, even if the choice is to "not act." As such, you need to go somewhere else with your argument.
The "can't create commerce" argument is a bit stronger, but still pretty weak tea.
I don't like the approach that the law takes to healthcare reform, but the legal arguments being presented against it are unconvincing, imho. It can be a bad idea and legal at the same time.
Are all choices are regulatable actions, then?
I am making an infinite number of not-buying decisions every second. Is all of that decision making "economy activity" which is subject to commerce clause regulation?
What kind of society do we want? One where politicians and bureaucrats can control everything? Or one where most decisions are made by individuals?
It's really that simple. Twisting words to arrive at desired conclusions really is just verbal masturbation. There are two truths here: (1) The current interpretations of Constitutional provisions are mostly indefensible distortions by any rational measure; and (2) regardless of truth #1, the fact remains that we've allowed legislation and case law that has set a precedent of allowing almost unrestricted power in every level of government.
We can either stop and reset to a limited government/personal liberty/free market system, or we can continue down the path we're on to almost certain and open tyranny. If this happens, don't be surprised when a lot of bad things happen, including an American Empire. An economic collapse combined with our unlimited government and its incredible military supremacy is a really, really dangerous thing.
See, the mandate's supposers keep saying that the activity/inactivity is pure sophistry that is politically motivated.
But isn't the current warped, stretched beyond regonition, idiotic interpretation of the commerce clause the real sophistry?
And isn't the desire to see the mandate upheld politically motivated?
They're accusing anti-mandate people of twisting words for political purposes. But they are twisting the words of the Constitution, for political reasons themselves.
All sophistry and illusion. We all know that the government was founded with limited, enumerated powers. It's not rationally debatable. The fact that the government has twisted everything to the point where what was once limited and strictly defined is now virtually unlimited and undefined changes nothing, because at some point, a majority of us are going to realize that the government is no longer legitimate and that it has usurped power never granted to it in the first place.
The statists, particularly of the left-wing variety, want to claim that the fact that the courts have been complicit in all of this makes it legitimate. But it does not. Consent of the governed is the keystone to the stability of our system, and all the logic-chopping in the world doesn't change that. At some point, we either make internal changes to return the government to some semblance of a legitimate republic, or we accept tyranny and its consequences.
We may continue to look like a republic for a long time, but we won't be one if we let government continue to define its powers as unlimited and continue to act with diminishing accountability.
Damn, this is Patrick Henry territory.
Hazel
I submit to you the " stretched beyond regonition" part of current Commerce Clause caselaw involves not this action/inaction thing, which is non-textual and contrary to the common sense meaning of the word "regulate", and not the junking of bizarrely abstract and sophistic arguments narrowly defining commerce (distinctions between "manufacture" and "commerce" when the article manufactured is intended for and involved in interstate trade), but instead is the substantial effects doctrine. It is the substantial effects doctrine that allows the inter-state part of the interstate commerce clause to be gutted.
The problem though is that without something like the substantial effects doctrine we go from a nearly all encompassing power to a neutered one. Now of course libertarians would be happy with that, but the Founders were not libertarians and surely this is not what they were doing in granting the power, granting a neutered power.
Still, I've long thought about how the substantial effects doctrine could be modified to provide meaningful limits. One idea is to follow the thinking in cases like Heart of Atlanta Motel v. US where the government had to make an actual showing that a significant portion of an enterprises business had an interstate component. Another is to put the burden on the government in actually showing that allowing X to fall outside regulation would have a substantial effect in the aggregate, sort of like what courts do when analyzing whether religious exemptions to certain regulations should be granted. It can't just be assumed in the hypothetical what would happen if everyone did the behavior in question in the aggregate, it should have to be shown that there is some realistic evidence of or likelihood of that happening.
There is nothing sophistic about the activity/inactivity distinction.
Basic moral intuitions common to western culture (fuck that, the entire human race) recognizes the distinction between forbidding an action and mandating it.
We also have a long standing legal tradition recognizing the difference between pushing someone in front of a train, and failing to rescure them.
We didn't invent the activity/inactivity distinction out of nowhere.
And no the word "regulate" does not imply mandating that uninvolve bystanders get involved in an activity. Regulation implies regulation only of people already involved in a market.
The real issue is whether being alive is enough to constitute an "activity" that automatically subjects you to regulation.
If we follow the arguments of the mandates proponents, all living human beings are automatically in the healthcare market and therefore can be forced to do things.
I don't think as a philosophical matter that the distinction is sophistic, but as a matter of language and text. The word and concept "regulate" has a long history of encompassing the power to mandate as well as direct and is even used so in the Constitution in other areas. You're just trying to read your political philosophy into the text and language, but unfortunately for you the makers and users of language are not all libertarians.
Thank you for getting to the heart of the matter, PL.
It's one place where the "living" Constitution fans are right--we make the decision every day to be free or to allow tyrants to dominate us. It's not some old document or a bunch of judicial opinions that make us free. It was us all along.
Once again, I come to the conclusion that I don't care what Tony thinks about an issue.
Not buying health insurance is an activity. It's called "free-riding".
Yes, because insurance is the only way possible to pay for health care! No one ever pays cash for a procedure, like I did yesterday.
Are you able to pay cash for every conceivable medical malady that may affect you?
That's the goalpost now? Every conceivable medical malady?
Unless the answer is yes, you're a free rider.
Which means everyone's a free rider, with the exception of Bill Gates et al.
But this then applies to everything. In your world, only Billionaires aren't free riders, because they're the ones who can afford to do any conceivable action.
Since you can't afford any conceivable legal representation, you are a free rider and subject to the Law Mandate. etc.
By your logic, buying health insurance and then getting cancer is also free riding.
No, because you paid to enter the pool of risk instead of free-riding and getting free emergency medical services.
You are proposing a solution for a symptom (free riders) of a problem government created by mandating no-questions-asked care in emergency rooms. I have a much cheaper (not to mention constitutional and moral) solution for that problem: get rid of the emergency care mandate.
Most Americans would not describe allowing the poor to die on Emergency Room floors as "moral".
But you believe the philosophy of a serial-killer-enthusiast, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
You're the serial killer. In all practicality, your policy has been to make health care so expensive that only the well-to-do can afford to pay for it. The blood is on your hands, moron.
Why is US health care the most expensive in the world, and socialist health care like in England or Switzerland substantially cheaper?
I think it's because your pet philosophy is a crock of shit.
Because they let people die from waiting.
Whereas we get around that problem by discouraging the poor rabble from seeking care, thus keeping ERs nice and clear for us superior beings.
Why is US health care the highest quality in the world, and socialist health care like in England or Switzerland substantially lacking?
I think it's because your pet philosophy is a crock of shit.
If a person is celibate, can it be said that they're depriving prostitutes of money?
What about meat eaters? Can they be forced to buy meat because Congress wishes to keep the meat industry from suffering losses or disappearing?
Jeesus, it seems as if MNG split his personality and infected Tony and Edwin and is now arguing with itself. Throw some Neu in there and this is almost like reading an MSNBC thread.
THe principle here is so blindingly clear to any libertarian (and most rational people). I am waiting for the collapse to move to Costa Rica.
yo qiero taco bell baby
OHHH and Derider showed up. This is a fantastic thread.
time for some PWNAGE!
""the text of the Commerce Clause does not acknowledge a constitutional distinction between activity and inactivity, and neither does the Supreme Court."
That's all he needed to say. The meaning of the word "regulate" in many other legal matters has long been held to encompass mandates as well as prohibitions and directives of already existing behavior. In case after case concerning the local and state police power the word "regulate" is used, and that power uncontroversily includes mandates. If it includes mandates then there is indeed no textual support for this 'action/inaction' distinction.
It's interesting to see some progress being made even among the ideologically driven here on H&R. Less and less people are coming on to make the argument that only the Dormant Clause understanding was granted to Congress in the Clause as it's been repeatedly pointed out that this view is demolished by Raich (as well as the fact that again there is no textual support for it and there appears to be a redundancy with other parts of the Constitution under such a reading), that the Clause only allows direction, the making regular of already existing commerce (again, the total prohibition endorsed in Raich blows that out of the water).
So slow, incremental progress is being made. Who knows, in a decade or so libertarians may no longer feel the need to engage in mental gymnastics to try to deny that the common sense meaning of "regulate" or "to make rules" includes the power to mandate as well as prohibit and direct behavior.
Mental gymnastics to deny common sense is the defining characteristic of libertarianism. If they lose that they'll just be republicans.
I dunno. I find libertarians (actual ones, not the conservatives who dress up their conservatism in a libertarian dress) to have a good deal more principle than most libertarians, and to have values that are much more likable than most republicans.
But it's clear their principles are guiding them on this. They abhor the results of the current commerce clause caselaw because they rightly see it allows for more federal government action than they would like. You can easily see this by perusing any thread on this subject here, the denunciations ultimately always come around to how there is no limit on government, how minute actions can be regulated, how the scope and reach of government are so very, very much greater under this caselaw than they were ages ago. They want a result that will tie the government up, for very good and noble reasons actually imo, and they will torture language, precedent and logic until that result is gotten.
Take virtually any discussion of Wickard. There's usually little substantive discussion of the logic the court reached and the precedents leading up to that ruling, the problems of the courts in dealing with many different situations drawing every finer lines, usually there is just the outrage that a man who wanted to grow wheat for his family and animals was prevented from doing so. If you take this result out of context it does seem outrageous, heck even in context it does, but for a libertarian it must seem exponentially more so. And that outrage guides their legal thinking on this topic...
My only solace is that idiots such as yourself who marvel at their own brilliance will suffer far more than they possibly can comprehend if 'their' side actually triumphs in the struggle of government authority over liberty and freedom.
Nice of you to prove my point, its your lamentation over the result that drives you clearly.
You've made no point. All you've done is pretend that there's an absence of substantive discussion, which you then extrapolate as some sort of intellectual victory. Not even a straw man - it's more of a straw reality.
If it's so bad here, with so little substantive input, why stay?
Applauding yourself is not an argument.
Now explain how the commerce regulated by PPACA is interstate.
I don't think any current lawsuit being discussed around the country is trying to make the argument that the health insurance or care markets are not interstate ones...One look at, say, Aetna's webpage dispells that idea.
a) I didn't say anything about current lawsuits. If anything, I'm describing the lawsuit that I would file, but I'm not a lawyer. I'm just putting forth an argument that I'd like you to answer.
b) Aetna does business in several states, but the insurance in each state is separately regulated and is not portable. Look at their "choose an individual policy" widget on the home page ... first thing it asks you is what state you live in.
The Commerce clause of the Constitution was supposed to maintain free trade between the states. The US was new, each state was full of greedy politicians (as now), and this allowed the new Federal government to keep the states from levying destructive tariffs and other rules on each other which would limit trade between them.
It wasn't a rule to grant federal power to regulate a business in detail if it sells something across state lines. It was actually the opposite of that.
Roosevelt and the New Deal forced the current interpretation as a way to impose federal government control. Sell a donut across state lines? The Feds apply donut regulations to you. There are rulings that prducing and consuming your own milk affects interstate prices, so the Feds can apply regulations to you. It is completely natural to apply the same reasoning to just sitting there being uninsured. It is entirely consistent with past rulings and the power of the Feds. It is a bit late to wake up, blink, and say "that isn't reasonable, to regulate us just because someone might see us across a state line".
At this point, accept that you are the serf/pawn of the government "for your own good". You have the choice of electing whomever you wish, but they get dictatorial power over you until the next election.
Understand your natural rights. Think hard about what you want the country to be like for your children and for you as you get older. Demand that the Constitution be changed to make its limitations binding, and correct the idiotic rulings which prevent a supposedly free people from asking each other questions (employment law) and trading with each other.
Russians and Nigerians (for example) are not overall less intelligent, less hard working, or less concerned about their lives than we in the US. They lack a tradition of freedom and they have dictatorial government. We in the US can become much more like them. All we need is the right sort of government, the sort we are seeing implemented right now.
Natural rights are bullshit.
The only rights worth anything are those granted to you by the government, because those are the only rights that get defended.
In other words, "What you get is what you get."
"The Commerce clause of the Constitution was supposed to maintain free trade between the states."
Citation needed.
I mean, what does this kind of statement even mean? Was this supposed to be the legislative intent of the drafters and ratifiers? There were literally hundreds of people involved, we cannot peer into their minds and find what they were thinking.
All we have that we can know for sure is the text they wrote, a text which grants Congress the "power to regulate...commerce...among" the states. Our only guidance is what the word power, regulate (to make rules), commerce (trade), among (between), and states (the geographical units of the US) mean and meant as words.
Round and round it goes:
1. MNG claims that he has no way of knowing what the founders thought.
2. Rational people cite public quotes from James Madison, or the federalist papers, or one of the many contemporaneous sources which explain in clear detail that the interpretation of the writers and ratifiers of the constitution was diametrically opposed to MNG's willful misinterpretations.
3. MNG backpedals, and switches claim to "It doesn't matter what they thought; as long as I redefine the words they use I can find a loophole!"
4. MNG waits for time to elapse, then resumes lying about being unable to discern what the founders thought.
How many times must the cycle repeat?
Clearly you don't understand this part of the argument I made above:
"There were literally hundreds of people involved, we cannot peer into their minds and find what they were thinking."
You can point to the federalist papers or Madison's notes, and now you're talking about a handful of the hundreds of ratifiers stances, and worse, just their public pronouncements of the same.
The irony here is my views of the futility of legislative intent as a guide come from Justice Scalia.
The real irony is the fact that you use Scalia's opinion as some sort of trump card, as it shows your inability to even grasp the fundamental beliefs of H&R.
So as I say, I wake up every morning, thankful that I have exceptional health insurance coverage I found through "Penny Health" for my family because it gives me peace of mind knowing that my family can count on me to deliver their health care needs.
It's pretty simple: the American people made the tragic mistake of giving control of the house, senate, and presidency to the Democrats. We're now fucked, until we can find a legislative way to get un-fucked. Meanwhile, enjoy the broom handle in your ass. Maybe it'll get more comfortable with time.
What, specifically, is it about Obamacare that constitutes such a massive fucking? I want a list of provisions and why they are the death of freedom.
You are forced to buy an insurance product from a state-approved company or pay a $1,000 fine.
Even the segregationists who proposed the poll tax weren't so blatant.
How exactly does one go about starting a business and then get the government to force everyone to buy my product? Because that seems like a pretty good business model. And is the car industry kicking themselves that they didn't think of this first?
Isn't interstate when you cross over a border into a different state? Like interstate commerce, isn't that buying something from out of state? If I don't leave the state to purchase anything, how is that interstate? What do these retards smoke?