Gun Owners of America Calls for Dissolution of ATF


Gun owner, obvi

The Second Amendment grassroots group Gun Owners of America today called for the dissolution of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, citing work done by the House Oversight Committee over the last several months to expose an ATF program that led to the killing of a Border Patrol agent. 

Operation Fast and Furious (previously named Operation Gunrunner) intentionally facilitated illegal trafficking of guns from American shops, across the Mexican border, and into the hands of Mexican drug cartels in order to "track" how the guns were then used. The Oversight Committee's investigation, led by Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), revealed that acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson and Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich knew that ATF agents were allowing guns to move illegally into Mexico. Issa has since called for Melson's resignation and for more transparency from the Department of Justice, which is conducting its own investigation of Fast and Furious, but isn't cooperating with Issa's investigation.

Today, Gun Owners for America issued a statement saying that Issa's investigation should spell the beginning of the end for ATF: 

News reports have disclosed that many gun stores in the Southwest had suspicions about buyers that were not flagged by the Instant Check. But these gun dealers were told to go ahead and let the sales take place.

So, what did Democrats do in the face of this damning evidence? They wanted to discuss the need for more gun restrictions.

Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-CA) said Congress needed to pass more gun control because, if one massages the numbers just right (and ignores a whole bunch of others), why, 70% of guns used in Mexican crime supposedly come from the U.S. At least that's what a brand new report from the ATF claims.

But Issa would have none of that, and he kept the committee focused on all the guns the ATF is helping send to Mexico.

ATF has a long history of death and destruction. Waco was never adequately addressed at the time. Indeed, ATF got a bigger budget the next year. Innocent people such as David Olofson were convicted with perjured testimony. The Bureau has never published a manual detailing how they determine what is, or is not, a machine gun.

We have to thank the agents who had the courage and integrity to blow the whistle on the corruption being fostered by their superiors. But this is only the tip of the iceberg. The Constitution allows no room for gun control, which is why this agency needs to be done away with and the managers of Fast and Furious (and those who signed off on it in the upper echelons of the Justice Department) need to go to jail.

Previously: Despite opposition from the NRA, GOA supported Sen. Rand Paul's firearms amendment to the PATRIOT Act

NEXT: What Will Holder Say About Medical Marijuana?

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  1. Not a bad idea.

    1. At a minimum.

      I'd prefer the ATF was abolished and these clowns were tortured then jailed.

      That would approach Justice.

  2. can we even get the BASIC facts right here, riggs/reason?

    it isn't an "ATF" program. It's a BATFA program. likewise, there is no such thing as the "ATF", it's the BATFE.

    gun owners of america apparently makes the same mistake in their excerpt

    1. ugh, typo. how ironic. BATFE not BATFA

    2. ATF is common shorthand for the BATFE. Even their own website uses "ATF". http://www.atf.gov/
      I would expect you to know that Porky.
      Fuck you, you blue suited thug.

      1. smooches!

      2. oh btw, i stand humbly corrected!

        1. You know we love you Dunphy, but I gotta admit, railing against the use of the short-hand "ATF" only to have it appear on their own website is pretty damn funny.

          Also, was curious where you were on the thread yesterday about state rankings in freedom, given that that is a frequent topic which you discuss. Washington didn't do so hot; it was about middle of the pack, I believe.

          1. hey, when i'm wrong., i'm WRONG. i was WRONG about ATF. i admit it.

            WA is only a free state because of its constitution. it's legislature is full of leftwing nannies of the highest order.

            but i rank certain freedoms more important than others.

            when it comes to the right to self-defense, privacy, and RKBA i rank those among the highest.

            the right to smoke in a bar (and i loathe cigarette smoke but still support the right to do so), or play online poker etc. are less important

            note that all the freedom related assmunchery is due to the legislature

            all the freedom benefits are due to the constitution. many cities for example have tried to infringe gun rights but get slapped down

            1. It provided their weighting on various issues (some of which seemed relatively minor, like homeschooling). I personally don't care much about homeschooling, because I don't have any offspring, but I do likes me my pipe and sometimes a cigar, so that ranks fairly high up there to me.

              Defense, privacy, and strong police oversight / citizen avenues for redress are my hot buttons (outside the obvious economic stuff like not having a state income tax). I really hate being forced to conceal carry (and to have to get a permit to do so); I'd much rather have the option to open carry, just so I wouldn't have to remember to pay and take a class to renew the license every so often. Bugs the shit out of me. I prefer full-sized pistols, but find myself using compacts for comfort reasons due to having to conceal carry.

              1. We have no permit required open carry and CCW shall issue.

                But what i think is exceptionally important is privacy.

                WA state does NOT allow cops to search motor vehicles "incident to arrest". that's hyoooooge.

                also, no DUI roadblocks

                no curtilage exception to the 4th amendment, also

                i've written scores of search warrants, btw, and we have nice tough standards to get into a house. as it should be

                self defense is HYOOOGE. the state has a burden to DISPROVE self defense. that's great if you have a self defense claim. they also have to pay attorney and lost wages if the jury rules self defense

                1. You always make it sound appealing, but as I wrote some time back (you may have read it, may not), I wasn't really impressed during my only time out there (stationed at Ft. Lewis).

                  Costs for almost everything are much higher than my home place of Texas, and, to be blunt, there seemed to be a disgustingly large population of faux-bohemian hipsters and liberal douchebags infesting the entire greater SeaTac area. Maybe I just wasn't going to the right places.

                  1. The forests and Mt. Rainier were really quite pretty, though.

                  2. i moved here from hawaii, so everything seems cheap as fuck!

                    i now have the house of my dreams in beautiful suburbia, and a great job with great people.

                    i feel the same way about the hipsters and liberal douchebags but if you know where to go, you can studiously avoid them. for example, if i go downtown to a club - it's cowgirls inc, not belltown

                    i am so so so so so so so glad i don't work for SPD since that would be 90% of my clientele. and i'd also have a spineless, PC , cop-o-crat administration

                    my main complaints here are the weather, the fact that Pac NW'ers are passive aggressive pussies, and it's too far to drive to go surfing

                    1. Well compared to Hawaii, sure it's cheap. But head down to Dallas sometime, and you'll see almost as big a difference between Seattle and here, as you did between Hawaii and Seattle (area).

                      The one thing that was cheap in Hawaii was good sushi, which is hard to find here and usually expensive when you do.

                    2. i am sure Dallas is cheaper, but i am not sure the cop pay is that good. here, i get paid VERY well with VERY good benefits. my understanding is that texas cops don't get paid that well on average

                      i prepare my own sushi on occasion ( i get my fish from an asian market) and there is a decent and very cheap local sushi place i like

                      food in hawaii was insane. maui got a costco right after i left, which eases the pain. i remember moving here and milk was literally HALF the price.

                    3. Yeah the groceries were bad, but I meant the sushi restaurants in Hawaii were cheaper (for good stuff) than what I can find here. I'm sure it's not as big a deal where you are, since you're closer to the food source and probably have more Asian immigrants.

                      Our cops are paid pretty well. Plano (the burb where I live), they start off at 50k, and it goes up from there of course annually. Dallas proper I think starts off at 40k. Trust me, with the cost of living being as low as it is here, 50k with overtime is considered a very good starting salary.

                      Of course, there's also full retirement after only like 20 years, which is ridiculous.

                    4. i'm making 80k base, i get a take home police car, and the dept. pays ALL of my (generous medical).

                      the retirement here isn't that good (high 5.). i max out my deferred comp (15k ) each year. unfortunately, my agency pays into social security (my last agency didn't).

                      it's damn good.

                      i really cannot complain. there are a LOT of things in the police world i complain about, but pay/benefits are not one of them (except for the benefits for officers injured line of duty which are ridiculously bad and the legislature is being pressured by our evil union to fix it

                    5. I don't blame you for taking what's offered, but 80k is more than any cop except senior officers would make here. But again, you probably would only need about 60k down here to compre cost of living wise.

                      As a taxpayer, I'd be pretty pissed if we were paying any civil employees like that. Guess that's part of what lets Texas have a low tax, low reg environment.

                    6. oh, we also have no income tax. i would never (again) live in a state w/income tax if i could help it

                      oh, and i checked. it's actually about 85 k!

                      without ANY overtime

                      again, i have no complaints

                    7. and it's too far to drive to go surfing

                      Sigh.. Now we have something in common.

                    8. i moved here from hawaii, so everything seems cheap as fuck!

                      Except the booze. That's the one and only thing I can think of that was cheaper on trips to Hawaii (albeit from Oregon, not Washington). Just shows you how much the state is ripping us off when they can make something in Hawaii look cheap by comparison.

                    9. Booze is cheap wherever there are native peoples. Firewater keeps the savages in line.

      3. "...Even their own website uses "ATF"..."

        And, that's what's stenciled on the backs of their blue wind-breakers.

    3. Wouldn't you at least capitalize "America" if you're going to quibble?

      1. i don't capitalize (in blog posts) generally speaking. it's a style thing. i certainly do when i write articles (which i have done)

        1. Too lazy to hit the shift key is a "style" thing? OK.

        2. i don't capitalize (in blog posts) generally speaking. it's a style thing.

          I'll give you this: it does make your posts irritating while requiring no effort on your part.

    4. While the offical name of the agency is called the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, their official acronym is still ATF. You might want to check out their documents and website before correcting others. I'm not even sure what you mean by "It's a BATFA" program. What does BATFA stand for?

    5. dunphy, everyone knows the ATF is the BATFE, This term is used by many as it's easier to say. Even government officials, congressmen, mayors, etc use this shorter version.

  3. Any glance at pics of guns rounding up from Mexi-gangsters clearly show ex-military and police guns not purchased on the US market as well as guns more common to the Mexican civilian market - .38 Supers, Stars, Llamas etc. Sure, a few from the US trickle down there, but whose damn fault is that?

  4. Any glance at pics of guns rounding up from Mexi-gangsters clearly show ex-military and police guns not purchased on the US market as well as guns more common to the Mexican civilian market - .38 Supers, Stars, Llamas etc. Sure, a few from the US trickle down there, but whose damn fault is that?

  5. D'oh, double post!


    *throws gun to Riggs - WHO IS GUNNED DOWN BY THE ATF, YOU BASTARDS!*

  7. Despite opposition from the NRA, GOA supported Sen. Rand Paul's firearms amendment to the PATRIOT Act.

    Wrong (again); NRA took no position on the amendment, it did not oppose it. The NRA does not take a position on procedural votes as a matter of policy, since such votes are often used as traps.

    1. They sure whined about it though, huh?

    2. This isn't some ethical stance: non-profits aren't allowed to support/oppose pending legislation. They can only oppose stuff after it passes.

      Given that, I doubt they whined about it.

      1. This isn't some ethical stance: non-profits aren't allowed to support/oppose pending legislation.

        Half right.

        True, non-profits (501[c]3s, etc.) aren't allowed to politic.

        So the folks who support and oppose legislation or legislators form political action committees like the NRA's Institute for Legislative Action or the Texas State Rifle Associations TSRA-PAC to do so. PACs aren't "non-profits" in that donations to them aren't tax deductable, and so forth. PAC finances have to be kept completely separate from the non-profit organization.

      2. I could have sworn I've seen nonprofits speak out for and against pending legislation before. I don't think they were separate PACs either. I know they're not supposed to support or oppose candidates for office.

        I mean, churches are almost all nonprofit but they're always opining on pending legislation.

        1. Wait a sec, I'm quite sure that the nonprofit university where I work has taken positions on pending legislation (and filled my inbox with them). So there's no way that's true.

          1. You are forgetting about the double standard wrt enforcement. Hell, unions aren't supposed to be partisan.

  8. Gun Owners of America Calls for Dissolution of ATF

    an ATF program ...Operation Fast and Furious

    Enough said.

    1. The problem was that it was too fast, too furious.

      1. I can see how that would trip some people up.

      2. The problem is that "We The People" don't really care about freedom and liberty. We've picked sports and American Idol over the Constitution of the United States. We could have both entertainment and freedom if we had more than two brain cells.

  9. The Second Amendment grassroots group Gun Owners for America

    Is Larry Pratt now cool with arms as a natural right? There was that embarrassing period where he said it didn't apply to brown people who weren't born on US soil.

  10. That's assuming people owning military, automatic weaponry is somehow wrong. When are the "sporting tradition" bloodlines dominating the NRA going to die off and allow the constitutionalists to take over?

    1. As soon as the "legalize marijuana but NOT hard drugs!" crowd goes away. Which is to say, never.

      1. I'm depressed enough already -- I don't need YOUR help slapping me back to reality!

    2. Which organization terrorized and decimated the legislators who passed the 1994 assault weapons ban?

      Hint: it wasn't GOA or SAF.

  11. Bureau of ATFE does need to go. Constitution explicitly suggests that A and F are none of the feds' business, and (ignoring enumerated powers, SLD and all that) the FDA and FBI can handle T and E, respectively, just fine. When their existence isn't an affront to the republic's constitution, they're superfluous.

    1. Interstate commerce; necessary and proper.

      What more do we need to know?

  12. Why dissolve the BATF? Most of the time, the left invents a fantasy version of the world, populated by walking, talking straw men. With the BATF's operation fast and furious, the left was at least trying to turn their talking point about the Mexican drugs being fueled by guns from America into reality.

  13. Take down the ATF, and you will take down the IRS. The IRS always has ATF agents with them when they seize property because they have no authority on their own to do so. Look at You Tubes by ex IRS agent Sherry Peel Jackson...she was revenue agent, and knows the IRS is accounting arm of ATF...legally, of course

    1. Not for quite a while. ATF was originally part of the Treasury Department--first as the Alcohol Tax Unit, where it was given responsibility for the tax portions of the 1934 NAtional Firearms Act, and later reorganized into the ATF after teh passage of the 1968 Gun Control Act. They moved to Justice during the shakeup when Homeland Security was formed.

      IRS has their own armed goons now, and also has the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau to handle the excise tax responsibilities formerly handled by the ATF.

      Pretty much all the ATF does now is guns, and a bit of explosives.

  14. ATF- come over to my house.

  15. The TSA as well. Might as well do a clean seep and bring in the DOE too.

  16. and EPA

  17. You know, it is kind of weird having the ATF when we have the 2nd Amendment. This would sort of be like having agencies to regulate speech, establishment of religion, etc.

    1. But I suppose you wouldn't have to dissolve it, just change it to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Explosives.

      1. Why do they get to keep explosives?
        Alcohol and tobacco have tax revenue issues (as do firearms but the Fish and Wildlife people can enforce those)but there isn't any Fed explosives tax I'm aware of.

        1. Because its not a real party until you've got booze, smokes, guns, AND explosives.

          1. i have a friend with BATFE who buys his smokes in canada, so he can walk around the office with cigarette packs that do not have the US treasury seal on them which drives his superior nuts.

    2. "...agencies to regulate speech..."

      Oh, you mean like the FCC, and FTC?

  18. OK, someone has to say it:

    "ATF? Sounds like the name of a great convenience store!"

    In all seriousness, in the town of Troy, Montana is a store that is called "Booze and Bait" that sells A, T and F.

    ... "But not E" Hobbit

    1. Well, you used to be able to get "E" at any hardware store.

  19. Gee, if I were a conspiracy theorist I might be concerned that they were sending guns to Mexico from the US so the media would constently report how most of the guns used in the border violence come from the US so douchbags like Feinstein and Schumer could demand more gun control. But I'm sure that's not what happened. Just an honest mistake.

    and yes...



    1. I think that is exactly what they were doing. No one has ever adequately explained how this program was supposed to work. So the guns went to Mexico? And then what? Profit? The only way it makes sense is for it to be for political purposes.

  20. Gun abuse should be controlled

    1. Gun abuse should be controlled

      I have no problem with that. As long as you realize that "common sense gun laws" aren't designed to control the abuse of guns.

    2. Computer abuse should be controlled, let's have NICS checks for each computer you purchase. If you wish to post to a blog you must take a two day class, submit finger prints to the state and wait for their approval.

    3. I try and abuse my gun every day

  21. I'll provide some of the fashion costume pandora jewelry selections I found irresistible under this particular heading. A French war hero sits on a fashioned pin. This is a very old pin pandora bracelets and is not at all mainstream with today's styles.

  22. ATF are all legal, yet we have a special law enforcement agency dedicated to them. Always a bit of a mystery to me, except that it's less about the crime and more about the feds protecting what they believe to be theirs.

  23. Glad to see the GOA has taken the position I've been advocating for over three decades.

    It's a pity the NRA has fallen back into the organization it was when it endorsed the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968.

    The days of Harlan Carter and Neal Knox at the helm of the NRA are long since over.

    1. NRA didn't support the truly bad parts of the GCA...only the parts restricting ownership by felons and mentally ill people and such. Can you people stop smearing the most effective gun rights organization in the history of the US for a few seconds?

      1. So you're saying that a freeman should be debarred the use of arms? Thomas Jefferson didn't and wouldn't agree with you. If a person is too dangerous to own a firearm then they should be locked up.

        The NRA tried very hard to derail Heller!

        The NRA supported the bill to strip gun rights from returning veterans!

        The NRA supported the disclose act after they negotiated their wavier from said act!

        The NRA is a very could firearms education group. They are a very good money raising group. They are a lousy Second Amendment group. The NRA only cares about raising money. This is proven by the exorbitant salaries of the top executives.

        1. The NRA is bad about arguing from first principles, but it is damn effective politically. I'm not thrilled about some of its realpolitks, e.g. supporting Harry Reid, but it has had a tremendously positive impact on legislation and policy as well as raising the public's understanding of 2nd amendment issues. Libertarians could do worse than take some lessons from the NRA.

          The NRA is very aggressive in its fund raising, but the money doesn't just disappear down a black hole as it does with many other organizations.

        2. The NRA is a very (good) firearms education group. They are a very good money raising group. They are a lousy Second Amendment group.

          Whatever you think of the ILA (and you need to check your facts) it's the NRA's training program that has reversed the dynamics of the gun rights debate. Taking hundreds of thousands of non-shooters to the range and teaching them safe gun skills is the only truly effective antibiotic against gun control rhetoric.

          While other gun rights organizations have been fighting battles, the NRA and only the NRA is winning the war.

  24. There's hundreds upon hundreds to annihilate, but let's start with this:

    Department of Agriculture (USDA)
    Department of Commerce (DOC)
    Department of Defense (DOD)
    Department of Defense Inspector General
    Department of Education (ED)
    Department of Energy (DOE)
    Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)
    Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
    Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD)
    Department of Justice (DOJ)
    Department of Labor (DOL)
    Department of State (DOS)
    Department of the Interior (DOI)
    Department of the Treasury
    Department of Transportation (DOT)
    Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)
    Director of National Intelligence
    Disability Employment Policy Office
    District of Columbia Home Page
    Domestic Policy Council
    Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)

    BATFE, too!

    1. Minus Dept of the Treasury

      1. I think you want to keep DOD. And when you eliminate DHS you eliminate customs immigration, and the Coast Guard, all solid core government functions that are even allowed under the constitution. But the rest of it, can go and no one will miss it.

        1. I just copied the "Departments" list from the official website, to make the point that with very few, VERY FEW, exceptions, they all must disappear.

          I'd completely restructure customs and border enforcement -- eliminate the Department of Homeland Security completely, and create a small, dedicated agency JUST to handle customs and immigration (say, the Border and Immigration Agency, or something), and that's it. Place the Coast Guard under the control of the Department of Defense (and maybe rename it to the Department of War, or the Department of the Military). Presto!

          1. Coast Guard is a weird animal. They really do do customs work. Then they also do stuff like inspect cruise ships. Things DOD would want nothing to do with. They probably should live in your Border and Immigration agency.

            I would get rid of the ATF and strip the FBI from DOJ. And I would put them in the same agency as CBP and ICE and have one unified federal law enforcement agency that did just federal crimes, i.e. border stuff, terrorism, federal civil rights stuff, and state and local corruption and that is it. There is no reason for the FBI to be doing most of what it is doing. And I would close the DEA. Let the feds stop drugs at the border and leave it to the states to deal with once they are in the country.

          2. DOD originally was called the Department of War. Dunno exactly when it was changed - sometime in mid-20th Century, I'm thinking.

            1. It became DoD when the Dept's of War and Navy were combined by the National Security Act of 1947.

              1. So the name change predated Orwell's 1984. Interesting.

        2. Immigration can go to Justice, or State. Customes and the Coasties can go back to Treasury where they resided for a two-hundred years or more.

      2. And DOJ. I would keep the prisons and the courts.

        1. No, THAT I meant to include -- it needs some really, really, REALLY heavy and thorough restructuring and reorganization. Fucking DOJ assholes.

    2. And you would want to keep the VA. It would pretty shitty of the government to send people off to get wounded in wars and then tell them to fuck off when they came home.

      1. The VA: because no medical treatment could be too mediocre for the nations' military heroes!

        1. True enough. But it is better than nothing. Maybe you could contract it out or replace it with a voucher system or something.

          1. The "better than nothing" mantra has gotten us the government we deserve. It got us John McStupid as a Presidential candidate last cycle. It's going to get us Romney, Huntsman or Perry this cycle. Please remember that Romney support health care mandates, Huntsman and his family donated tons of money to Harry Reid and Governor Perry was the campaign chairman for Al Gore in 1988. Why are so many Dems running as Republican's? Because people are to stupid to pay attention.

      2. Fold its functions into the DOD or its successor.

        1. The federal government has no authority to regulate alcohol, tobacco, firearms or explosives. They have no Constitutional function. I'm really starting to get irritated with people who don't understand the Constitution and don't want freedom and liberty. There are plenty of countries that weren't founded on freedom and liberty. Go there if you wish to be oppresed.

          1. The federal government has no authority to regulate alcohol, tobacco, firearms or explosives.

            If they move in commerce among the several states, it does. I see no exception to the interstate commerce clause for smokes, guns or bombs.

    3. DOE funds applied mathematics research, which is covered by the Necessary and Proper clause or something, so they need to stay as well.

      1. The Necessary and Proper clause is not blanket authority for the government to do anything it wants. It is to do things necessary and proper for the enumerated powers of the government. It's obvious that the Constitution is no longer taught in school or it is taught by progressives.

        1. The text of the Necessary and Proper clause is as follows.
          "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or any Department or Officer thereof."

          No show me applied mathematics research in the Constitution? If you want to say that applied mathematics research can be used to defend our nation or our borders, I'll agree with you but not applied mathematics as a broad discipline.

          1. For full disclosure, I work at a National Laboratory (DOE). I wrestle with this every day.

            1. I'm funded by DOE occasionally but I've given up wrestling. It's like the contradictions are Andre the Giant and I'm Richard Simmons.

    4. Most on the list are clearly unnecessary, but a few are in line with the Constitutional basis of the federal government:

      Department of Defense (DOD)
      Department of Justice (DOJ)
      Department of State (DOS)
      Department of the Treasury

  25. It's funny how a kid could order a belt-fed machine gun by mail before 1934, and there weren't any school shootings in the US before 1934. But that's probably revisionist history -- I'm sure mile-long stretches of roads were lined at the sides with the corpses of kindergarteners for decades.

    1. Well, there was the Bath School disaster of 1927, although that wasn't perpetrated by a student, but by a member of the school board who was angry about a property tax, who bought explosives which were freely available at hardware stores. Interestingly enough, there was apparently no legislative response at all.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....ed_attacks is an interesting list of various attacks, most of very small scale.

      1. Explosives are still freely available hardware stores. 1927 was just before the progressive "let the government control everything" bs began.

        1. Define: freely available.

          1. I mean I can walk in, purchase the proper products and walk out.

  26. Correct, the managers of "Fast and Furious" need to go to jail, and this includes Holder and Obama, for it's almost certain that they knew and approved it.

  27. Good luck with that one. I sincerely hope you succeed.

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