A War Fit for a King
Obama's "kinetic military action" in Libya violates the Constitution
Remember back in your high school civics class, when you were taught about the constitutional division of authority in matters of war? When you learned that the president has all the powers of an emperor, and Congress has all the powers of a potted plant?
Neither do I. But the people occupying high office in Washington went to a different school. They have done their best to prove that when it comes to using military force, neither the law nor the Constitution means a thing.
More than two months ago, President Obama abruptly took the nation to war against Libya, a country that had not attacked us or threatened us. His ostensible purpose was to protect Libyan civilians from the government of Moammar Gadhafi, which is at war with insurgents.
Obama acted after getting authorization from the United Nations, which is not mentioned in the Constitution, rather than Congress, which is. Specifically, the framers stipulated that Congress has the power to "declare war," giving it the chief responsibility except when the president needed to act quickly to repel an attack.
But in the ensuing centuries, presidents of both parties have often trampled over their original limits, and Congress has usually let them. This has not gone over well with all lawmakers—like the senator who said in 2007 that the president has no right to go to war on his own, barring an actual or potential attack.
His name was Barack Obama. But President Obama has thoroughly repudiated the naive and simplistic notions voiced by Sen. Obama. In some ways, he has also been even more aggressive than his predecessors in doing whatever he pleases.
A rare attempt by Congress to reassert its authority came in 1973, when it passed a law called the War Powers Resolution. It places mild restrictions on the president, requiring him to report to Congress when he puts American forces "into hostilities." If Congress doesn't give approval of the operation within 60 days, the law says, he has to bring it to a swift conclusion.
But the 60th day came and went last month without the slightest recognition by Obama. Meanwhile, the administration claims it is abiding by the law while declining to bother explaining how on earth this can be.
One possible excuse is that we are not at war in Libya. Defense Secretary Robert Gates insists the term "war" is inappropriate for what he calls a "limited kinetic action." He can call it a Hawaiian luau if he wants, but the fact remains that the U.S. is apparently still flying missions over Libya and hitting military targets.
The War Powers Resolution does not contain a giant, honking exception for such activities. In fact, the authors seemed to have Libya in mind when they said the rules apply anytime American forces venture "into the territory, airspace, or waters of a foreign nation, while equipped for combat."
It doesn't matter if our pilots are up there firing missiles or looking for topless beaches: If they are in combat aircraft over another country, the law applies.
But Obama apparently used his copy of the War Powers Resolution to housebreak the first dog. Rather than insult our intelligence with hair-splitting arguments about why the law exempts this undertaking, he has chosen to simply pay it no mind.
Harvard law professor Jack Goldsmith told The New York Times that "this appears to be the first time that any president has violated the War Powers Resolution's requirement either to terminate the use of armed forces within 60 days after the initiation of hostilities or get Congress' support."
The administration has brushed off questions about its compliance with the law. But the Times says officials have said Obama "may order forces into limited military engagements on his own if he decides it is in the national interest, and that the NATO-led campaign in Libya is such a conflict."
Really? Can someone direct me to the provision of the Constitution that blesses "limited military engagements" authorized by the White House in conjunction with NATO? Or the section in the War Powers Resolution that says, "Invalid in cases when the president claims a national interest"?
The Constitution says the president "shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed." But when Obama executed this law, he did it with a firing squad.
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They all have played this game. Doesn't make it right but Obama didn't invent it.
Do you have Suki chained up in your basement?
I'm wondering about her too.
It rubs the lotion on its skin, or else it gets the hose again.
PUT THE FUCKING LOTION IN THE BASKET
Why am I not shocked that poor Suki is tied-up in your dungeon? Or, that you have one!
Yes she does. But I am told on good authority it is a consensual D/S thing. So don't worry.
Suki and I would have sleepovers and do each other hair and nails.
Sorry, unlike libertarian , I don't keep guests in the basement. OTOH, it may make them feel at home
I wasn't aware Suki was a girl. And maybe she would feel at home being tied up in the basement?
And it is libertine not libertarian. There is a difference.
I'm cool with whatever Suki says she is, and I meant to say "unlike, libertarians" referring to the living in their mama's basement meme
Oh rectal, you are the most annoying blah blah why don't you blah blah most unaware blah irony is lost on blah blah why can't I quit you blah blah.
East Coast Episiarch. That that is a great handle.
Should I keep it? Will West Coast Episiarch hunt me down and get all "individualist/anarchist" on my ass?
Should I keep it? Will West Coast Episiarch hunt me down and get all "individualist/anarchist" on my ass?
Don't worry. He stays in his gated fortress in Belltown with his guns a-ready. I doubt he ventures out much for fear of hobos and clubbers.
why can't I quit you?
Like any good Italian boy, he likes to be disciplined
Clinton played it in Yugoslavia. Bush I did in Panama and Reagan in Grenada. But those operations were actually days not weeks. Obama is launching the country into a now months long war with no debate or Congressional authorization. Shame on Republicans like McCain and those at National Review who are giving him cover for this.
Hate the player. Without the player, there's no game.
"""""Really? Can someone direct me to the provision of the Constitution that blesses "limited military engagements" authorized by the White House in conjunction with NATO?"""
General Welfare?
Interstate Commerce?
Obama is the spirit of Dick Nixon and he can do what he wants as long as nobody stops him?
If Libya refuses to sell oil or can't sell it due to a civil war, that affects interstate commerce doesn't it?
+ $3.68/gal.
Well, the commerce clause includes the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations..", so that includes the right to make rules about anything effecting commerce with a foreign nation, including mandates, so yeas, as much as I claim not to like the substantial effects doctrine, the commerce clause does in fact allow Obama to make war on Libya.
The amusing thing is the wacky libertarian reading of the clause presents the same problem: if the state part of Clause is meant only to give the feds the power to remove impediments to commerce the states set up is the foriegn part supposed to give the feds the power to abolish the trade barriers of other nations?
Even more amusing is that since the clause obviously doesn't allow the government to reach inside of foreign nations the same clause obviously allows the federal government to reach inside the states!
Er, yeah, and if it means 'remove impediments [i.e., trade barriers]' you've got the same problem, because it obviously doesn't allow for the removing of barriers placed by the foriegn nations it mentions.
Except that the clause gives "Congress" the power not the Executive. But hey, it is a living Constitution.
But the Commerce Clause (Art. I, ? 8, cl. 3) gives *Congress* the power to regulate interstate and foreign commerce. For that to be seen as a grant of authority for the *president* to make war, you'd have to read the opening words of Article I, ? 8 as saying "Congress and the President shall have the Power." And once you've done that, you don't have to use the Commerce Clause at all, because all of Congress's section 8 powers, including the power to declare war under Art. I, ? 8, cl. 11, are now presidential powers.
It doesn't matter if our pilots are up there firing missiles or looking for topless beaches
Why is it always about tits? Why can't it be bottomless beaches?
Because some bottoms you really don't want to see. Whereas most tits you do want to see.
you've obviously never been to mardi gras. loads of stretch-marked, saggy teats not worth the beads
Even mine?
Move along, sir.
There might be a Whoopi Goldberg tit fetishist out there somewhere. Stranger things have happened.
Like swinging a bat in a cave.
But Whoopi's aren't "tits" tits.
There's never a bad time to remind us what a horrible person she is.
because straight guys would rather see the topless girls than the bottomless guys.
Don't worry Matrix, you can't catch teh gay
When the President does something, it is not a crime.
Suck it up and just toad the lion like everyone else.
The titular concern of you meat bags has always been titillation. Oh, and no fat chicks on the topless beach. So you're out. LOL
Jess
http://www.anonkatz.com
PWNED
Anonbot, you got my first LOL of the day. Good work, old chap.
It would be nice if he told us the real reason we were bombing Libya.
Ted Obama,Just Admit It...
http://tinyurl.com/4tr8lbo
That is a bit tinfoil hatish. I think we did it because Europe doesn't want refugees and Susan Power is a stupid transnationalist bitch.
How do you explain the fact that the rebels were able to form a new central bank and national oil company after only 2 days of the UN Security Council seizing Gaddafi's funds? Think they had a little help from the IMF/BIS?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/.....afi-s.html
Conspiracy!
2 days to to plan and implement a new central bank is fast even for the IMF, no? You can't make this shit up, unless you are John Perkins, right?
It's the internet. You can make anything up.
just like men
2 days to to plan and implement a new central bank is fast even for the IMF, no?
I'm pretty sure I could do this with just mid-level financial management skills. AND it would be a better set up than they have. Remember, firing up a grill and openning the doors might make you a restuarant but doesn't mean anyone should eat there.
Mr. Wipple has a point. After PATRIOT ACT I have a hard time opening a simple bank account in under two days.
What does it mean to say Powers is a stupid transnationalist bitch? I thought we agreed she wanted to get into this to prevent another Rawanda or Bosnia? Would you have opposed us stopping another Rawanda or Bosnia? Remember, you supported Iraq.
And of course we will be going into Syria any day now, given the horrors they are committing against their people. Because us libruls are consistent!
If there is a homeless shelter a block away from you and another two miles away, are you a hypocrite or inconsistend for just volunteering at the closer one?
cuz a person volunteering at a homeless shelter and a nation waging a war are equivalent things! HERP!
Analogies, how do they work?
So if you see a homeless person with a scraped knee and another with his hand cut off on the same block, which one do you help first? Analogies, how do they work?
"Analogies, how do they work?"
Well, yours works against you seeing as how most observers thought the crisis in Libya was the one closer to the hand being cut off than the one is Syria.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....7968.shtml
vs.
http://english.aljazeera.net/n.....52727.html
Keep working on those analogies though, never give up!
[...]most observers thought the crisis in Libya was the one closer to the hand being cut off than the one is Syria.
Well, most would be WRONG.
Keep spinning to justify your inconsistency!
Neither, I stay away from bums.
I'd run over the bum with a scraped knee first. There's a good chance the other one's gonna bleed to death before I get the car turned in his direction, but the one with a scraped knee could run away.
I increase my chance of a 100% kill rate by taking out the healthier bum first. Duh?
She has gotten us into a war that the administration refuses to win and in no way advances US interests. Meanwhile, worse things are happening in Syria, a regime that really does threaten US interests and we do nothing.
She seems to support US involvement only in cases were intervening in no way advances the US. We have a "public servant" who is intent on using the US military for every purpose but defending the country or advancing US interests. That makes her a stupid transnationalist bitch. Her miserable ass ought to be before Congress on a daily basis.
Her miserable ass ought to be before Congress on a daily basis.
It would be nice to hear her explain all of this to a congressional committee. Although in all fairness, she's not the one giving the orders.
John
Did you support Bosnia? Would you have supported some kind of intervetion regarding Rawanda? If no to these, why not considering you supported Iraq?
Now, wait a sec. Was Bosnia the one Clinton used as deflection for his impeachment hearings? Or was that another conflict, perhaps Somalia...I can't keep track.
Full disclosure: I supported our initial incursion into Iraq (Bush I) partly because an ally asked us to help them when they got invaded and partly because I was young and foolish. I also supported Afghanistan at first when our mission was to kill a bunch of terrorists. That quickly eroded as did my support for the war. I did not support Somalia, Bosnia, Iraq II (The sequel), the drone war in Yemen or Libya. For future reference, I will not support the next war Obama gets us into, probably Syria. I may support our upcoming conflicts with Iran and NorKo depending on who starts them.
Some horrible stuff went down in Rawanda and Bosnia, but that doesn't mean any of it was our business. Iraq isn't our business, and neither are Libya and Syria. NATO can deal with those kinds of things, but they don't need to rely on the U.S. Screw NATO! We shouldn't even be worrying about what they think of us anyway.
Why hasn't an impeachment started? This is an impeachable offense, right? It sure sounds like he is committing a crime here.
Because then Joe Biden would be President and nobody wants that.
Not even I want that!
At least the ratings for the press conferences would skyrocket.
Who would be the new VP? Pelosi?
Better yet....:)
"Don't be a smartass"
What is hilarious is that conservatives have been arguing the War Powers Act is a egregious, unconstitutional restriction of the executive's power for decades, and now they are championing it and calling for Obama's impeachment over it!
Ah not really. The Congress has rolled on this. The Republican leadership in the House refuses to have a vote on it. The mainline conservative publications like National Review and the WSJ are not calling the war illegal, just poorly planned and a bad idea. It is just the Libertarian right and the few far on the far left with any integrity who seem to be complaining.
Regardless, who cares what the Republicans think? They are not in power and didn't start the war. The problem is that Democrats are in power and started the war. And by the standards they have sought to apply to the Presidency for the last 40 years, Libya is an illegal war.
It's okay when our guy does it!
Actually I've been criticizing Obama for weeks on this, but thanks for playing!
Everyone forgets all of my posts defending Obama on attacking Libya while opposing Iraq because they were different!
Well, they are different. I don't think Obama's Libyan action is equivalent to Iraq. I do think he is violating the WP act.
Try to keep up!
But I still defended Obama's attack on Libya as being okay!
Try to keep up! HERP!
No I didn't, but again, I realize nuance is hard for some, thanks for playing!
Oh Noes! It's breaking out the nuance! DERP!
I haven't heard any conservatives calling for Obama's impeachment over this. I agree that the WPA is possibly unconstitutional, but not for restricting executive power. The WPA increases executive power beyond its constitutional limits.
"What is hilarious is that conservatives have been arguing the War Powers Act is a egregious, unconstitutional restriction of the executive's power for decades,..."
No, it is not. While conservatives have complained about the constitutionality of the War Powers Act, Republican POTUSs have followed it. Obama is not questioning the constitutionality of the War Powers Act, he is just offering lame sophistries that what he has our military doing in Libya does not qualify as a real war. Exactly how is the liberals hypocrisy on this issue not hilarious?
The Government!
I'd be more convinced by this sort of argument if it hadn't been violated from the very beginning: which seems to indicate that the power to "declare war" never meant anything more than a diplomatic thing, and not an actual authorization to use force. It's not that I don't agree with the general sense that this situation is wrong, only that the Constitution simply never offered the separation of powers we'd like to project onto it in this particular situation. In which case I think the real solution to this is a Constitutional amendment which contains the gist of the War Powers Resolution. Otherwise, what the President is doing might be unwise and unhealthy for the republic, but hardly unconstitutional given the very long history of constitutional interpretation going all the way back to the founders. The solution here is obvious, and I imagine that in the political climate right now, support for such an amendment would almost certainly be bipartisan and popular enough to cause a real debate. But no one seems to be doing it.
I am not buying that. In the past, the undeclared wars were short police actions like the one against the Barbary Pirates. All of the big ones, 1912, Mexico, Spain, World Wars I and II were declared. We didn't start fighting long wars without Congress until Korea and Vietnam. And it caused Congress to reassert itself via the WPA.
In the past, the undeclared wars were short police actions like the one against the Barbary Pirates. All of the big ones, 1912, Mexico, Spain, World Wars I and II were declared.
So the Civil War was a "short police action"?
I am willing to buy that historical interpretation authorizes the President to do things like chase Poncho Via into Mexico or do quick invasions like Panama or Grenada. But protracted wars? No way.
No, not protracted wars. The WPA gives a hard 60 day limit, but the Constitutionality of it is questioned, which is why presidents ignore it. The Constitution does not spell out specific limits, and early presidents didn't seem to recognize any. Those conflicts were as long as they needed to be. With congress unwilling to use its spending power to end such conflicts, the only way to do so is to codify the WPA in the Constitution. There is no agreement at all on current Constitutional limits. The only solution is to make common sense limitations explicit in an amendment.
You are begging the question. Why is the WPA unconstitutional given the fact that the Constitution gives Congress the exclusive power to declare war?
Why is the WPA unconstitutional given the fact that the Constitution gives Congress the exclusive power to declare war?
Well, I suppose you could play MNG-style word-interpretation games and note that it says the power to declare war, which is largely a diplomatic function, but does not state congress has the exclusive power to wage war, which is a function of the executive. Not that I agree, I can just see how some might argue the issue.
"it says the power to declare war, which is largely a diplomatic function, but does not state congress has the exclusive power to wage war, which is a function of the executive. Not that I agree, I can just see how some might argue the issue."
by that logic, we can also say that the constitution says that congress has the power to make laws, but since the executive has the power to enforce laws, he can enforce laws that don't actually exist. if congress hasn't declared war, there is no constitutional war to wage.
I completely agree with your point. Although the executive often does in effect create and enforce laws that haven't been passed by congress through rule-making by regulatory agencies which are under control of the executive.
only when a statute says the agency can issue regulations.
only when a statute says the agency can issue regulations
Which is essentially congress delegating law-making authority to regulatory agencies under control of the executive, which really isn't a proper exercise of law-making power, since regulatory 'rules', which are entirely created by the regulatory agency, have the force of law.
well we can debate that point, but it is really beside the point here. the wpa doesn't purport to delegate the power to declare war to the executive.
Your boy Cheney can help you with why.
http://www.politico.com/news/s.....16785.html
And he is wrong, although I would agree with him that the President can commit some troops for short periods of time without Congressional approval.
So what? I disagree with Cheney. It doesn't matter anyway since the Bush Administration actually got Congressional approval to go to war. Obama hasn't.
Good for you for disagreeing with him. We agree on this issue, the War Powers Act is a good thing, Obama is violating it and something should be done about that.
I follow Poncho Via: the Way of the Poncho.
"COWBOY DIPLOMACY!" "NO BLOOD FOR OIL!" "THE WORLD CAN'T WAIT!" "NOT IN OUR NAMES!"
More than two months ago, President Obama abruptly took the nation to war against Libya, a country that had not attacked us or threatened us.
...*crickets*...
...*crickets*...
...*crickets*...
This is the perfect opportunity for Michael Moore to make a sequel to Fahrenheit 9-11.
Why can't you fucking right-wing hicks understand this?...OBAMA KNOWS WHAT'S BEST!!!!
Oh, and Jon is still on the cutting-edge of political humor...just so you know, you know?
ORK ORK ORK ORK ORK ORK
WAUUUUUGH!
I know. It's hilarious to see how the libs flip-flopped on this. They were screaming because Bush sent us into Afghanistan and Iraq. Obama bombs the hell out of Libya, and they are cheering him on.
"They were screaming because Bush sent us into Afghanistan and Iraq."
With strong bipartisan congressional approval, FWIW.
This is ridiculous. He's egregiously violating the compact of society, the Constitution, that grants his power legitimacy. Why the fuck hasn't he been impeached and tried for treason?
Why can't I smoke in my own restaurant?
Because government has exceeded the bounds of its just authority spectacularly.
because I don't want to eat ashes, and wash your fucking hands too
So don't eat in his restaurant.
Hmm, I think he proposed last night, or it could have been Tony
Where is epi? I need my fucking coffee
Why does my restaurant have to have fire exits? And I can't power it with my own nuclear reactor? And it has to be clean?
Because customers say so by not eating there. Or maybe they would eat there? Who knows. Try it and see I guess.
Yes, but what does General Chang have to say about all this?
Tah pagh, tah be'.
"I'd be more convinced by this sort of argument if it hadn't been violated from the very beginning"
I hate this argument. Who cares that other Presidents have broken the law as well? Right now it is being broken, and that should be criticized.
Liberals have supported the War Powers Act in the face of Cheney-Rummie attacks on it, and now they refuse to invoke it. By letting it slide here they are doing far more damage to the Act than all the AEI seminars denouncing it put together.
The point is that there is no broad agreement as to whether the law has or has not been broken. The long history of unauthorized warfare raises doubt over the meaning of "declare war" in the Constitution. Assuming that the law is being broken doesn't solve the problem: that *is* the problem. That the law is vague (and has been vague for two hundred years). That's why it all needs to be made explicit. The Constitution is vague. History has clouded it further. We can keep arguing over the WPA, it's consitutionality, blah blah blah, or we can take a big old sword to the knot and cut through the bullshit with a Constitutional amendment that sorts it all out.
Or Congress can just assert its power and defund the damn thing unless it is authorized. We don't need an amendment. There is nothing vague about "declare war". You are just claiming it is as a way to avoid the subject.
A Congress needs to get up the balls to do exactly what John is talking about. Power of the purse, don't be afraid to use it.
Or Congress can just assert its power and defund the damn thing unless it is authorized. We don't need an amendment.
This is the real heart of the matter. Congress will never have the balls to cut off funding when 'our boys' are in harm's way. So they came up with the WPA as a more palatable way to limit unauthorized war-making. But apparently they don't have the balls to try to enforce the WPA either.
But why do we always think the PR is going to cut agains the Congress that defunds and not the Executive who keeps our defunded troops in harm's way?
I guess the PR shit-storm could go the other way, but most Americans are reflexive 'support the troops' people, and I think their perception would likely blame congress for cutting off the military funding they need in the field. Nonetheless, you are correct in that the PR really shouldn't be the determining factor as to whether congress ought to assert its proper role in adhering to the Constitution.
They could amend the WPA to make automatic defunding the consequence of not getting Congressional approval after 60/90 days.
Because the president is always going to be more charismatic and better able to defend his side than congress as a group. Individual congressmen may be able to defend themselves and avoid the PR shitstorm, but due to the partisan game it will always be in their favor to try and blame the other side rather than the president.
Right. Generally, the government doesn't start enforcing laws until it's sure they're constitutional. This is no different.
Really? So, how is the constitutionality of a law ever challenged in the SCOTUS? If the law isn't being enforced, then nobody can ever be an effected party to challenge the law.
Sorry, my sarcasm was set to something on the Planck scale. Adjust your meter accordingly.
Ahh, that's why I always use the sarcasm tag (i.e. < sarcasm >, < /sarcasm >), so I don't confuse myself.
On Wednesday, 74 days after U.S. forces joined the military operation in Libya, President Obama seemed to run out of goodwill on Capitol Hill.
A group of both liberals and conservatives ? defying the leaders of both parties ? threw their support behind a bill to pull the U.S. military out of the Libya operation. That prospect led GOP leaders to shelve the bill before it came to a vote.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....story.html
Of course they did; they want the ability for a future president, oh, say, President Palin, to use against, oh, say, Venezuela. Suddenly the Left will re-discover their love for Congressional authority to make war.
God, I hope our next President is a militant minarchist.
"Remember back in your high school civics class, when you were taught about the constitutional division of authority in matters of war?"
No. They didn't teach it.
Because idiots are idiots I'm just going to provide this link to Louis Fisher's articles debunking the following, 1)constitutionality of the War Powers Act, 2)the claim to the president having inherent powers over the military beyond acting in defense, 3) that there is a long history of presidents engaging in wars apart from the congress.
http://www.constitutionproject.org/fisher_toc.php
OK that looks like it might just work. Wow.
http://www.privacy-web.no.tc
1) We shouldn't be in Libya.
2) The question of whether this is "a war" is a relevant question primarily because our involvement is as part of NATO, an organization to which we have treaty obligations. Whether the president needs additional congressional approval to act as part of NATO is unclear to me...but the issue is not covered explicitly in the War Powers Resolution.
Unless NATO is more than a defensive alliance, we have no treaty obligations to our NATO allies for their choosing to interfere in a non member nation's civil war. If Libya was invading Sicily, say, then we might be committed under the treaty.
The long history of unauthorized warfare murder raises doubt over the meaning of "declare war" "murder" in the Constitution criminal law.
No, it doesn't. I have never heard of a law that was essentially repealed if enough people violated it.
Not that I agree with the insanity you quoted, but prohibition puts your counterargument on shaky ground.
The question of whether this is "a war" is a relevant question primarily because our involvement is as part of NATO, an organization to which we have treaty obligations. Whether the president needs additional congressional approval to act as part of NATO is unclear to me.
He does. Even if this were a war that was covered by our treaty obligations to NATO (and I don't think it is), the Constitution is supreme over treaties. The Constitution says "Congress" shall declare war. Treaties are approved only by the Senate. The Senate by itself cannot declare war, so a treaty approved by the Senate cannot serve as a substitute for a declaration of war.
the Constitution is supreme over treaties
Not sure that flies.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;
Treaties made under the Authority of the United States
As the powers delegated under the US constitution are for commerce with other countries and the common defense of the United States, it's a spurious claim that there is authority to engage in treaties to protect other countries or assist in intervening in other countries affairs.
Other points to keep in mind.
1) Obama asked Congress for action, they didn't act. Under the War Power Resolution, he should, then have to withdraw.
2) If the War Powers Resolution is inapplicable...1 doesn't matter.
3) if 2 is true, then the issue is "congress shall declare war" and the relationship of that to treaty obligations.
We should not be in Libya...but I think the case being made about constitutional authority is not straight forward.
The constitution does not provide "authority" for the political branches to bind us to multi-national war-making treaties under the terms of which we bankrupt ourselves in order to make war and impose our will upon others.
The "authoritah" is not to be found in the constitution.
I demand a tax hike to pay for my bloody adventures.
all about the oil....
Not sure that flies.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;
Are you arguing that everything on that list is co-equal? That the Constitution, laws, and treaties are equally the law of the land?
Because I don't think that will fly. It leaves no basis for any federal law to be overturned as unconstitutional, for one thing.
Leaving aside the use of the phrases "which shall be made in Pursuance thereof" and "under the Authority of the United States", of course.
No, NM, there is no question that, given a conflict between a treaty obligation and the Constitution, the Constitution wins. Do you really think that a treaty that required the US to confiscate all firearms, or burn blasphemers at the stake, or imprison anyone who published opinions critical of the government, would be valid?
If Congress ever ratified such a treaty, consummate rebellion would occur. We're not THAT detached from our roots in liberty.
On point, the Constitution is total and absolute in its supremacy.
"We're not THAT detached from our roots in liberty"....
Been to the airport, opened a bank account, or tried to by pseudophed recently?
You may be right about the Consitution being total and absolute, but the folks it is supposed to protect seem to have forgotten the purpose of the grand experiment.
Damn, I gotta start using the preview option.... "buy", "Constitution"...
As weird as this may sound, I'm actually sort of holding out, or keeping away, the full-blown realization of just how far we've gone down the road of tyranny. I know those things consciously, but I try to push them out of the general feeling of my country.
Are you arguing that everything on that list is co-equal? That the Constitution, laws, and treaties are equally the law of the land?
The constitution itself indicates that treaties are co-equal. I am not making the argument. I am reading the document. The web of rules made up of these three elements are the supreme Law of the Land.
Because I don't think that will fly. It leaves no basis for any federal law to be overturned as unconstitutional, for one thing.
Leaving aside the use of the phrases "which shall be made in Pursuance thereof" and "under the Authority of the United States", of course.
Why would we leave those aside?
Oh yeah, so you can put forth this strawman:
Do you really think that a treaty that required the US to confiscate all firearms, or burn blasphemers at the stake, or imprison anyone who published opinions critical of the government, would be valid?
It's not a strawman though. Treaties have the force of law, that is true. But they have to be valid under the Constitution.
I also doubt that a "this is under a treaty" argument would work because we went in there by ourselves at first. It was only later that NATO stepped in.
You are arguing however that treaties can be used to essentially rewrite the US constitution and expand the powers of the federal government to do that which goes beyond what was delegated.
For instance the taxing clause limits raising revenue for anything beyond paying debts, general welfare of the UNITED STATES (not the people) and common defense. So if we enter into a treaty with France to attack Libya revenue would be redirected to something other than that allowed, and thus unconstitutional.
You are arguing however that treaties can be used to essentially rewrite the US constitution...
No I am not.
I am saying that the constitution allows for treaties to be made. Those treaties can include agreements to provide military support in certain circumstances. Those treaties may include "implied consent" for certain activities by the executive that could be considered "approved" by the legislative branch that would not be approved if not taken under authority of the treaty. If these activities fall short of a "declared war" there is some ambiguity about whether or not they are exceeding constitutional authority.
I agree with RC, that Libya seems to exceed the scope of the NATO treaty, btw.
to essentially rewrite the US constitution
The constitution is not rewritten by treaties. The "Supreme Law of the Land" may be, in a certain sense.
Sure you are. As I've already pointed out the powers delegated were for common defense and commerce, and so any treaty must remain within those limits. Obviously to engage in trade with other countries, treaties are needed, and obviously when there conflicts between countries treaties are needed, so treaty powers are granted, but limited within the constitution's agent powers.
You must manufacture "implied consent", which is nowhere to be found. Further, there was not one proponent of the US constitution that ever presented the US constitution as allowing for what you've argued, and so the original understanding of the US constitution must prevail.
the powers delegated were for common defense and commerce, and so any treaty must remain within those limits
That in no way conflicts with what I am saying. The question will always be answered on a case-by-case basis, but when a president acts under supposed authority of a treaty, the action needs to be judged taking that authority into consideration. Just saying "congress must declare war" is not good enough as the "supreme Law of the Land" as defined by the constitution itself includes Treaties. They have real authority and must be considered.
Again. Libya probably fails all of these tests.
What treaty authority? Again the treaty power does not extend to acting on behalf of other countries, so how would a treaty authorize a president to act, or re-delegate a power, such as declaring war?
It's this simple, president may act defensively when the states are attacked or an army or navy is approaching. Also, in case of attack on our commerce, which is less likely today than it was in the past. Anything else, such as taking the attack to another country's soil (when attacked ), must and can only be as a result of the congress declaring war.
There is no authority to have treaties like we do as a part of NATO, or the UN. Not that it matters as the US constitution was discarded years ago. Also, it's absurd to argue that people now dead can bind the living to agreements between abstract entities like the US or the states. Any constitution, federal, state, whatever, that does not include a renewal clause is only setting the stage for tyranny. Even more, while many state constitutions pay lip service to rights, they then go right ahead and grant power to violate those rights, not protect them.
It's this simple...
Or not.
What treaty authority?
Depends on the treaty, of course.
Again the treaty power does not extend to acting on behalf of other countries,
Who said it did? Acting on the behalf of the US as part of an international organization is not "acting on behalf of other countries."
so how would a treaty authorize a president to act, or re-delegate a power,
It doesn't. It provides written, constitutionally approved authority to act in certain ways.
such as declaring war?
This started with me saying that it does matter whether or not this would be considered a "war" that needs declaring, rather than a limited action that fits under the scope of a treaty agreement. If all military actions are "war" then you might have a case.
Let me clarify the point above...
so how would a treaty authorize a president to act, or re-delegate a power,
It doesn't RE-DELEGATE A POWER. It provides written, constitutionally approved authority to act in certain ways.
For instance the taxing clause limits raising revenue for anything beyond paying debts, general welfare of the UNITED STATES (not the people) and common defense. So if we enter into a treaty with France to attack Libya revenue would be redirected to something other than that allowed, and thus unconstitutional.
You would have to show that this action did not provide for common defense or improve the general welfare of the US. I think you can make the case, but there is nothing in principal to say that the revenue is being allocated inappropriately just because it involves military action of the type going on in Libya.
This is just a stupid comment by you. How would anything happening in Libya, who has not attacked us be in any way common defense.
Done with you, you're clearly just another clueless American idiot.
Which BTW, is why I started off my first posting...."idiots being idiots", and provided a link to help logical, thinking people become informed.
Len|6.2.11 @ 2:43PM|#
Which BTW, is why I started off my first posting...."idiots being idiots", and provided a link to help logical, thinking people become informed.
Ahhh yes, because that link provides the "correct" answer. (~_^)
This is just a stupid comment by you. How would anything happening in Libya, who has not attacked us be in any way common defense.
Reading is hard.
At least we finally found out that the Constitution and the laws passed by Congress are meaningless. The President can willfully and blatantly ignore them, as long as he is popular. He controls the Justice Department, so they won't arrest him. He controls the armed forces, so a coup is unlikely. Congress doesn't have the guts to impeach him if it doesn't think the move would succeed.
Sounds like a de facto Emperor.
Give Obama credit for picking a VP that no one wants to put in charge, like W with Cheney or Bush with Quayle. You didn't see anyone impeaching them. Clinton/Gore was sort of a tossup, so Bill was fair game. Maybe Perot picked Stockdale, and McCain, Palin, for insurance.
is good
ty rights, etc. seem like a more accurate measure of freedom than democracy.
THANK U