Those Who Remember History Wrongly Are Condemned to Repeat It, Government Spending and Recession Division
Anarcho-economist David Friedman reminds the New York Times's Nicholas Kristof that he knows not of what he speaks:
In a column in the New York Times, [Kristof] writes:
"But one of the most basic principles of economics is that when an economy is anemic, governments should use deficit spending as a fiscal stimulus, even though that means an increase in debt. If Senator Rubio believes that the response to a weak economy is to slash spending, he is embracing the approach that Herbert Hoover discredited 80 years ago."
Kristof has his historical facts precisely backwards. From 1929 to 1932 federal spending increased by 50% in nominal terms, doubled in real terms, tripled relative to national income. Judged by that measure, Herbert Hoover makes Barack Obama look like a fiscal conservative.
Kristof is not the only one to subscribe to this particular historical myth. Just over a year ago, I wrote a op-ed that appeared in several places, responding to the same mistake made by David Frum, a conservative commentator.
As I pointed out there, we do have an example of a Republican president who responded to a surge in unemployment in the way they think Hoover did. From 1920 to 1921, unemployment rose from 5.2% to 11.7%, almost as sharp an increase as from 1930 to 1931. Harding responded by sharply cutting spending. By 1922, federal expenditure relative to national income had dropped almost fifty percent.
And the unemployment rate was back down to 2.4%.
Correlation is not causation, as Friedman goes on to point out. But this is a very important point for such very important people to get so authoritatively wrong so often.
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Indeed. In reality, FDR actually attacked Hoover's crazy, out of control deficit spending.
Surprise, the history books have placed the blame on free market capitalism.
Just like people blame the free market, deregulatory madness of the first 6-8 years of the century.
It's getting so that when I hear "Bush deregulated Wall St." all I can think of is "John Wayne is a fag."
Unfortunately, the popular responses are polar opposites.
who dat blowout preventer?
That was the 10th year of this century.
tell that to PL above
Sorry, the free market ended in 2006 when the Democrats came to save us from the demononcles.
Having actually worked for a company that handled Sarbanes-Oxley compliance, I just laugh and laugh whenever I hear the "Bush the deregulator/market fundamentalism" lines.
"In reality, FDR actually attacked Hoover's crazy, out of control deficit spending."
My grandfather campaigned for FDR on that basis. And never forgave FDR and the Dems when they outlawed gold and
turned on the deficit spigots.
Kristof has his historical facts precisely backwards. From 1929 to 1932 federal spending increased by 50% in nominal terms, doubled in real terms, tripled relative to national income. Judged by that measure, Herbert Hoover makes Barack Obama look like a fiscal conservative.
I predict that in spite of these factual corrections, statist dirtbags will continue to repeat the Big Lie.
Zinn-fascists.
And their NorCal bretheren, the Zinfandel Fascists...
"It's the Sutter Homists! Open fire with every weapon we have! Prepare the nuclear codes!"
The ceaseless hordes of the Gallo forces will destroy them all.
+1 to this entire tangent.
Put a cork in it, Combs! We have a WAR to fight!
"The hills will be stained crimson tonight."
"I love the smell of tannin in the morning. You know, one time we had a white wine oaked, for 12 months. When it was all over, I opened the barrel. The smell, you know that French oak smell, the whole barrel. Smelled like... Chardonnay."
+ 1000!
"Freedom? You'd better flush out your head, new guy. This isn't about freedom; this is a slaughter. If I'm gonna get my balls blown off for a word, my word is: Merlot."
"I'm not drinking fucking Merlot!"
Merlot? Fuck that shit. Pabst Blue Ribbon!
It figures that a guy named Combs had to ruin it.
Despite Bailey's post earlier this week about pundits being terrible at predicting the future, I believe you have a 99.99999999% likelihood of being correct about this.
Predicting Team Blue reactions: So easy, even a gay caveman can do it.
Hey!
Hey!
OK. We all deserve it.
I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept the idea that when the government eats more of our discretionary income, it makes it harder for consumers to consume and investors to invest...
...but for some reason, people don't want to accept that!
Economics and logical thinking are HARD!
We're too busy studying important topics like an anti-folk theorem for finite past equilibria in repeated games with private monitoring to waste time on your non-mathematically rigorous thinking.
Exactly, who has time for such empty formality when we have to solve a Monte Carlo Markov Chain regression-discontinuity simulation with stochastic random-walk parameters?
um...I don't know what you guys are talking about. But if you're saying that squandering a bigger portion of our future paychecks on past mistakes and government largess is gonna leave us with less money to buy stuff and make investments?
Then I'm on board!
Shit, your moma has stochastic random-walk parameters
Because a massive chunk of the population thinks that the wealthy swim around in Scrooge McDuck moneybins and light their cigars with $100 bills, so obviously the government will put that money a more efficient use instead?
This is a soap-box I get on all the time. Hoover was a fucking disaster. He instituted wage controls, and actually started a lot of the machinery that FDR turned into the New Deal. FDR basically just followed in Hoover's ideological footsteps, and yet history remembers Hoover as "doing nothing" about the Depression, and thinks that FDR came along and saved us all.
There are several great articles on mises.org detailing the awful policies Hoover put into place, and why history books essentially tell complete lies about him to this day.
If you want the quick, "beach reading" version of this point, I can't recommend Tom DiLorenzo's How Capitalism Saved America highly enough.
What's even worse is that they always conflate Hoover with Coolidge, who once said of his successor, "For six years that man has given me unsolicited advice?all of it bad."
Which is exactly what Jimmy Carter did after Nixon/Ford, and what Obama is doing after Bush II.
I think Hoover/Roosevelt is a great example of how charm and charisma influence our historical understanding. FDR's policies were essentially an accelerated extension of Hoover's, yet they're remember now (and were considered at the time) completely different.
The reason is that Roosevelt seemed like he cared. Hoover was distant and intellectual. Roosevelt was emotional and warm. That's really all it took.
Wartime Presidents also tend to get lionized.
Which is funny considering Hoover grew up poor and made himself rich while FDR was born wealthy.
If only we could get Friedman to fact-check every Times columnist.
If he did, you'd find him in the Bell Tower after about a week.
David doesn't deserve to have to read Tom.
FDR basically just followed in Hoover's ideological footsteps, and yet history remembers Hoover as "doing nothing" about the Depression, and thinks that FDR came along and saved us all.
Hmm. If only we had a more recent example of a President being lauded as the savior of mankind while doing the same things as his hated predecessor . . .
Good point, but it really is unfair to compare Hoover with Bush.
Unlike Bush (and FDR and Obama for that matter), Hoover was not a war-monger. Neither was he a inarticulate dimwit.
For all his faults, Hoover was a genuine humanitarian who is still remembered for his work in Belgium during the Great War. Unfortunately, Hoover's legacy was ruined in the US by his ignorance of economics and the arrogance of power.
Plus, rumor on the Hill was that he had a funny-looking penis. That will always sink a mans legacy.
Just like people blame the free market, deregulatory madness of the first 6-8 years of the century.
The lie is better than that, at least at the professional-liar level.
In cases where regulation can be shown to have directly caused a "market failure," it's a priori the Market Fundamentalism? of the regulators that deformed the regulation and made it not work?and a number of pro-every-individual-regulation libertarians can be cited pimping any blameworthy reg as "market-oriented reform" to prove it. So every actually pro-market or deregulatory stance, whatever its merit, looks like an isolated antisocial crank arguing against everybody. And people hate that guy, especially when he's right.
It's awesome.
Nicholas Kristof is really Tony!!!
Man I hate me some Kristof. What a self-righteous tool he is.
My eyes and brain mistook/ADDed "Nicholas Kristof" as "Nat Hentoff" once. I read the article, thinking, "What the FUCK happened to Hentoff?" Then I read the name on the byline again...
Have not made that error since.
Meanwhile, Freddy Couples is en fuego! -4 on the day to get within 3.
Oh, and here's to hoping Eldrick shoots about an 80 today.
Man, I'm hoping for a big tournament for the mighty Lee Westwood. McElroy should stick around for the final day too.
I've got Corky (Westwood--note the resemblance to the kid from Life Goes On)in my pool along with Charl Schwartzel.
I'd kinda like to see Rory or Ian Poulter win just for the smack talk they'd lay down on Tiger.
Yeah, Poulter in his flag pants would be awesome. Would love to see Freddy get up and win it too.
Does Paul Casey look like a monkey, or is it just me?
It's that top lip. The mouth is not a good area for the brits.
"Yup. I definitely crapped my pants."
"...And just take a look at the mug on this guy -- the jutting eyebrows, the simian forehead, the idiotic grin. Why he has a face only a mother could love...
...on payday."
Frickin immigrants taking home all our trophies.
here's to hoping Eldrick shoots about an 80 today
Racist!
No, no. I just hate the part of him that's a petulant asshole to everyone around him on the course. I guess that basically means I hate Stevie Williams, doesn't it?
+1 Both of them are total cocks. Williams is shouty fuckwit and Woods is a pouty asshole.
JK. I feel the same way.
Good News: After one hole, TW on pace for a 90.
Bad News: You jinxed Freddy, he got his first bogey.
here's to hoping Eldrick shoots about an 80 today
Racist!
Wouldn't that actually make me a multi-racist?
here's to hoping Eldrick shoots about an 80 today.
You'll put your eye out!!
Thank you for pointing this out. My friends consistently point out this period in time and FDR's new deal as the time when American woke and started to "take care" (cringe) of its citizens, when history clearly shows it did much more damage then good.
http://www.intellectualtakeout.....sson-1930s
The nice thing about economic data is that different people can look at the same information and come away with two wildly divergent explanations for the data.
I love the "Here's some information that is only meaningful if correlation implies causation, but nevermind because correlation doesn't imply causation" thing too.
Kristof doesn't even bother to get the facts right. Like Krugman quoting Mellon on liquidation last week to show Hoover policy proved to be unsound. The only source of that quote is page 41 of Hoover's memoirs where Hoover refutes Mellon and explained that his administration took the opposite approach to policy. it is not possible Krugman was unaware of this, but he knows he wont get fired like a lesser mortal when he deliberately distorts the facts to serve his interest. If your position can only be supported with lies than it is time to change your position.
Or, Kristof wasn't lying, he was merely trusting the words of people with more expertise than him. Just like half of the people in this echo chamber are doing right now in response to this "anarcho-economist".
You'd almost think that everyone in this echo chamber were publishing a hit piece in the NYT.
It's being coordinated on neo-Journolist as we speak.
Didn't accuse him of lying. I said he didn't bother to double check the facts. Why do you think I went after Krugman at length? He is an expert and he should get those basic facts correct before he presents an opinion on them, right? Right? He knows the source but he chose to use the quote with duplicity, is that not obvious?
I'm just trying to help you out man, so you don't become a chump duped by liars. At least you could thank me instead of writing this horseshit:
Just like half of the people in this echo chamber are doing right now in response to this "anarcho-economist".
It is all, not, like, relative, uh, man.
I'm agnostic about this business. I don't trust economists (anarcho or no) any more than I trust NYT columnists.
It isn't horseshit to allude to the fact out that the Reason.com comments section more closely resembles a circlejerk than it does, well, something that doesn't resemble a circlejerk.
When you blame everyone in general for a state of action there is no one you can specifically pin blame too.
My behavior is not at all like Kristof's and neither are the people on this board like Kristof's.
That is why your argument is horse shit. I don't accept nebulous arguments.
Horseshit Nebula?
You never see pictures of it 'cause it is not conducive to science department funding.
Re: America's Jesus,
Yet you chose this forum to showcase your ignorance. How quaint.
This isn't a forum, Old Mex... it's a circlejerk. He's just waiting for us to finish and leave so he can lick the floor clean.
You guys are just proving my point about the whole circlejerk thing. Quick! 5 people respond to my comment before I can respond. All latecomes should be sure to echo the same point as the first responder without adding anything substantive to his/her criticism!
As if there's something novel about the self-righteous holier-than-thou attitude that seems to unfortunately be the hallmark of libertarian to perceived-non-libertarian communication.
So you're here to receive the bukkake?
I agree. America is Jesus. The holier-than-thou attitude makes your spooge taste like some fetid horror anyway. I will no longer be cleaning up this circle jerk. I'm keeping my syrup all to myself!
You guys are just proving my point about the whole circlejerk thing.
Wow. We're a community of like-minded individuals who share similar beliefs. You got us.
Alan pretty much nailed you to the wall in terms of substance, but you seem to lack the awareness that he did so. However, you did manage to whine about your feelings getting hurt. So, that's something, I suppose.
Kritol repeated a false statement that was easily refuted by looking at actual numbers from the years in question. Now either Kristol deliberately lied to advance his overall point or displayed such apathy to the truth that he couldn't be bothered to fact check what he wrote. Either way, he comes off as a unreliable douchebag, one who shouldn't be given the benefit of any doubt.
JW, you're mistaken. I'm not whining. This isn't my first day on the internet. I'm smirking. You folks are just like the tea partiers and the fringe-righty/lefty folk. You're all the same, you just have different delusions about the way the world works. Same people, different lapel pins.
Wow. We're a community of like-minded individuals who share similar beliefs. You got us.
I think you're confused about the meaning of the terms "circlejerk" and "echo chamber". They aren't synonyms for "community of like-minded individuals who share similar beliefs."
And Alan can handle his own balls, I suspect that he doesn't need you swinging from them.
They aren't synonyms for "community of like-minded individuals who share similar beliefs."
I think you're confused on how circle-jerks work. And, oh my, we're just like everyone else? That makes us sound almost human.
And Alan can handle his own balls, I suspect that he doesn't need you swinging from them.
Oh, of that I have no doubt.
Sometimes, you just have to scratch that annoying anal itch in public.
I wonder, could your criticism of this forum be any vaguer? If you're arguing that there's no substantive debate on this forum, you're wrong. If you're arguing that libertarians never disagree with one another, you're wrong. For example, I disagree with JW: we're not a fucking community.
Rather is America's Jesus? Islam and Sharia cannot get here soon enough!
Oh, it was Rather. Should have known, but the language in her initial post was passive aggressive instead of out and out aggressive. Her psychiatrist must have upped the dose to get her in the kind of stupor it would take a wacked mind to have written it.
If I had known it was her I would not have bothered as I don't like to encourage the trolls. Actually, the passive aggressive tense of the original post attracted my curiosity to dig it open a little further to see what would really bleed out once stripped of the PA scab.
Right. Because passive aggression is so out of place here.
Not much passive about it, most days.
It's one thing to "look at the data and come away with wildly divergent explainations for the data," but LYING about the data (as Kristof clearly did) is an entirely different animal.
Interesting the trickery Krugman uses.
"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate." That, according to Herbert Hoover, was the advice he received from Andrew Mellon, the Treasury secretary, as America plunged into depression. To be fair, there's some question about whether Mellon actually said that; all we have is Hoover's version, written many years later.
Sure, he admits to the source, but he is clearly trying to mislead you into believing it was the policy of the Hoover administration.
Two weeks ago, Republican staff at the Congressional Joint Economic Committee released a report, "Spend Less, Owe Less, Grow the Economy," that argued that slashing government spending and employment in the face of a deeply depressed economy would actually create jobs. In part, they invoked the aid of the confidence fairy; more on that in a minute. But the leading argument was pure Mellon.
Were Mellon's idea tried Krugman?
In fact, across-the-board wage cuts would almost certainly reduce, not increase, employment. Why? Because while earnings would fall, debts would not, so a general fall in wages would worsen the debt problems that are, at this point, the principal obstacle to recovery.
In short, Mellonism is as wrong now as it was fourscore years ago.
The answer is 'yes', you unequivocally imply the answer is 'yes'. Hell, you even give it a name with a nice ring to it. Lying bastard.
Here is the quote in the context of Hoover's memoirs.
"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate." He insisted that, when the people get an inflation brainstorm, the only way to get it out of their blood is to let it collapse. He held that even a panic was not altogether a bad thing. He said: "It will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people." He often used the expression, "There is a mighty lot of real estate lying around the United States which does not know who owns it," referring to excessive mortgages.
At great length, Mr. Mellon recounted to me his recollection of the great depression of the seventies which followed the Civil War. (He started in his father's bank a few years after that time.) He told of the tens of thousands of farms that had been foreclosed; of railroads that had almost wholly gone into the hands of receivers; of the few banks that had come through unscathed; of many men who were jobless and mobs that roamed the streets. He told me that his father had gone to England during that time and had cut short his visit when he received word that the orders for steel were pouring toward the closed furnaces; by the time he got back, confidence was growing on every hand; suddenly the panic had ended, and in twelve months the whole system was again working at full speed.
I, of course, reminded the Secretary that back in the seventies an untold amount of suffering did take place which might have been prevented; that our economy had been far simpler sixty years ago, when we were 75 per cent an agricultural people contrasted with 30 per cent now; that unemployment during the earlier crisis had been mitigated by the return of large numbers of the unemployed to relatives on the farms; and that farm economy itself had been largely self-contained. But he shook his head with the observation that human nature had not changed in sixty years.
Secretary Mellon was not hard-hearted. In fact he was generous and sympathetic with all suffering. He felt there would be less suffering if his course were pursued. The real trouble with him was that he insisted that this was just an ordinary boom-slump and would not take the European situation seriously. And he, like the rest of us, underestimated the weakness in our banking system.
But other members of the Administration, also having economic responsibilities?Under Secretary of the Treasury Mills, Governor Young of the Reserve Board, Secretary of Commerce Lamont and Secretary of Agriculture Hyde?believed with me that we should use the powers of government to cushion the situation. To our minds, the prime needs were to prevent bank panics such as had marked the earlier slumps, to mitigate the privation among the unemployed and the farmers which would certainly ensue. Panic had always left a trail of unnecessary bankruptcies which injured the productive forces of the country. But, even more important, the damage from a panic would include huge losses by innocent people, in their honestly invested savings, their businesses, their homes, and their farms.
The record will show that we went into action within ten days and were steadily organizing each week and month thereafter to meet the changing tides?mostly for the worse. In this earlier stage we determined that the Federal government should use all of its powers:[the start of a long list]
fuck, get me out of this decrepit Hooverville!
What had changed in those 60 years was the creation of the Fed and a bunch of other positions of power so that a bunch of them could sit around in a room and scare each other and decide they had to do something, just anything, exactly as happened in the latest debacle.
Old truth needs to be repeated.
Taxation destroys capital.
Spending with delayed taxation does so even more thoroughly.
I sometimes think it is easier to sound articulate and educated when professing the interventionist mindset of gov economic policy. (and thus appeal to many). Do free markets need better spokespeople? Or does the subject just not lend itself to feel good, simple, aspirational rhetoric?
"Do free markets need better spokespeople? Or does the subject just not lend itself to feel good, simple, aspirational rhetoric?"
Pretty sure it's the latter. Wish I could credit it, but:
'In a debate before children, a confectioner will always win over a nutritionist'.
Free markets don't promise something for nothing, other than gradually improving prosperity.
That is a top notch quote.
Actually, I wish I could *claim* it, but...
You misquoted me!
Argument has a different relation to function when comparing politics and free markets. The rhetorical arts were tied to politics in ancient Rome and Greece for a reason; they were necessary components of a political system. Nothing about that has changed. Free Markets do not need rhetoric to be sustained, just the billions of voluntary transactions that occur every minute.
In context, you shouldn't be surprised that the talent pool for rhetoric leans in the direction it does.
This mindset was summed up to me by this pair of aging proto-hippies on the bus one morning, "The free market frightens me. Nobody is in charge."
That's verbatim of their conversation I overheard.
Wow. But then again, the context of hippiedom means having the ability to leave your conventional lifestyle behind and stick a finger at the man because at the end of the day there exist a safety net to make sure someone else is billed for your mistakes.
Pelosian Freedom as opposed to Philidelphia Freedom.
While I agree that spending must be cut and that deficit spending does not help the economy in the long run, this post strikes me as 'finding something from history that fits' - in other words, anecdotal.
A stronger case, but one that is much more difficult to present, is the repeated occurrence of national defaults and economic crises due to out-of-control spending thoughout history.
Unfortunately, it is hard to get people to sit through a recitation of the catastophes from Roman times through the Middle ages, the Valois, the Plantagenets, the Stuarts, the Ancienne Regime etc that were brought about by excessive government spending.
Unfortunately, it is hard to get people to sit through a recitation of the catastophes from Roman times through the Middle ages, the Valois, the Plantagenets, the Stuarts, the Ancienne Regime etc that were brought about by excessive government spending.
Have you tried using chalk boards?
did those packing boxes make it to your office yet, Glenn?
I forgot about the 'Great Chalk Shortage Crisis' when the White Cliffs of Dover were suddenly worth ?1,000,000,000,000,000.
;P
Re: Aresen,
David Friedman is simply showing the gaping hole on Kristoff's argument that government deficits are necessary during a recession. History proves otherwise. I don't understand your criticism; at most, you should aim your guns at Kristoff and his unsubstantiated assertion, or his glaring lack of economic knowledge... or common sense.
I am merely pointing out that this is a single incident - i.e. an argument that is an anecdote. I would prefer to have a more comprehensive list to demonstrate the point. However, as I point out, reciting the many, many examples from history is a tedious process that most people won't bother listening to.
Historical analogies are generally not useful arguments, mainly because each set of historical events is unique. A friend of mine, a Chinese history scholar, once told me that you could find an example from Chinese history to support any argument you wished to make.
Or does the subject just not lend itself to feel good, simple, aspirational rhetoric?
I'm beginning to think the opposite is true. The idea of free men and women making their own decisions seems pathetically naive to most people.
Great Myths of the 20th Century.
a) Loch Ness Monster
b) The Moon landings never happened
c) Cold Fusion
d) A Laissez-Faire Hoover
That is not fair to put the first three with d. No one but the lunatic fringe believes the first three. All "right thinking people" believe the fourth. It is a fucking incurable intellecutal sickness on par with anti-semetism. There is just no reasoning with people about it.
The answer is C! The other 3 aren't myths at all, thought you could stump didn't yah?
"But one of the most basic principles of economics is that when an economy is anemic, governments should use deficit spending as a fiscal stimulus, even though that means an increase in debt"
That idea is not even remotely close to being a "basic principle of economics".
It is merely Keynsean Kool Aid nonsense.
Keynes just told elites what they wanted to hear; that they could control things better than nature or average people. It is no wonder they cling to their beliefs in him no matter how many times he has been proven wrong.
I love David Friedman and his work. His book "The Machinery of Freedom" should be required reading for the movement. It isn't perfect, but it's still great.
Also, like me, he's a giant nerd. He's with the SCA, plays MMORPGs, and writes fantasy novels.
Not really interested (at all) with this historical anecdote, but I find this fascinating...
Anarcho-economist David Friedman
What does this mean? Typically the prefix in front of a scientific discipline modifies the subject of study (Like Astro-physicist, or Micro-biologist--we can debate whether economics is a science, perhaps, but let's assume that it is). That would mean that an Anarcho-economist is one who studies the economics of anarchy. It is possible that is what Anarcho-economist David Friedman studies and that this is how the term is being used. But, it seems, the term would more properly be Anarchy Economist. The prefix "Anarcho" is typically used to indicate a political stance as in Anarcho-capitalist who believes society should be without government but organized according to capitalist principles...or Anarcho-syndicalist who believes that society should be without government but organized around communist-style cooperatives or syndicates. So, "Anarcho-economist David Friedman" is would indicate that David Friedman BELIEVES that society should be without government and uses Economic arguments to make his case. In practice that would mean he is not a scientist, but a propagandist (similar to a Marxist-economist, or Christian-economist). By labeling him as Anarcho-economist David Friedman, the post essentially says, "take everything he says with a grain of salt because he has made up his mind before examining the facts and should be expected to cherry pick data to bolster his case."
I don't know if he self-identifies as Anarcho-economist David Friedman. If so, that would be even more odd, but Doherty essentially assures his opinions be approached skeptically with the label from everyone that doesn't also share his belief structure.
Odd.
In India we follow the Keynesian theory of digging ditch and filling it to pump money into the anemic system. You see the results. During period of this depression, India stands alone not affected so far.
I like it,come on
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I'm beginning to think the opposite is true.