Tim Carney highlights an important dynamic in the shutdown showdown: the tension between the business lobby and the Tea Party movement. One is deeply embedded in subsidies and government contracts; the other is hostile to high levels of spending. And both of them have pull in the Republican coalition.
Business is so dependent on government that it has been reassuring Democrats that it wants to avert a shutdown and fiercely lobbying Republicans to strike a compromise.
Chamber of Commerce President Tom Donahue twisted the arms of GOP lawmakers this week and then met with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Dow Jones Newswires quoted Reid saying that Donahue "told more than 100 Republicans yesterday at an event that they were making a huge mistake shutting down the government." Business Roundtable head John Engler personally lectured Boehner on keeping government running for the sake of government contractors….
The chamber's role as a counterpoint to the Tea Party has always presented a potential rhetorical problem for Democrats. The White House tried to make the 2010 elections about Republican coziness to the chamber and other corporate lobbyists, while today business interests are aligned with the White House.
The contradiction stems from the divergent agendas of the Tea Partiers and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The chamber supported Troubled Asset Relief Program, stimulus, cash for clunkers, green subsidies, and Obama's proposed new infrastructure spending -- all of which The Tea Party opposed….
This demonstrates two points that should trouble anyone who shares the Republicans' professed belief in limited government. First, there is no powerful Washington constituency for serious spending cuts. Tax cuts and deregulation have their powerful champions, but federal frugality offers no concentrated benefits. This is part of why the GOP managed to cut taxes last decade while boosting spending. This is also why the Tea Party, wielding the threat to wage primary challenges against profligate Republicans, is so extraordinary and so important.
Second, the business-government coziness highlights a weakness in the U.S. economy. Businesses that serve government or rely on subsidies are not serving consumer demand, they are serving political demand. This makes the country poorer, as profits are less tied to giving people what they want and more tied to the ability to please politicians.
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It's not "business" that is so dependent on government, it's "big business." And they'll do just fine without it. It's just that it's sooooooo much easier to make money when all you have to do is pay lobbyists and accountants to do their thing. That's WAY easier than working hard to invent & improve products, deliver services, meet customer needs, you know, all that businessy stuff.
Well, I don't know if it's easier, so much as that you have to do that anyway. In modern terms, "monopoly" means "large, successful business without a lobbying branch in Washington".
It's not even big business, it's just a few big businesses. How many businesses benefit from cash for clunkers, green subsidies, TARP, etc.?
So who the heck supports the US Chamber of Commerce? Is it of a different kind from the local chambers of commerce? Are they supported by people who are more or less hoodwinked into thinking it's in their interest when it's really not?
Hey it's not me who's sexist. One of the 270 phrases of the infamous 1992 Teen Talk Barbie was "Math class is tough!", often misquoted as "Math is hard!".
It's breaking my heart. Diversify, fuckers. If you only have one profitable client and it goes under, you're fucked. Thinking the government could be that one client was the problem. You deserve to fail if you aren't prepared to diversify.
Of course it's ridiculous. It's obscene. But it's also the absolute norm now in Washington, and I don't see it changing, as there are no reasons for politicians to change it, other than potentially pleasing "Tea Party" voters, who they can probably bait and switch enough to please without changing anything anyway.
They and the politicians will do everything in their power to make sure it doesn't go under, so it wasn't exactly a bad bet.
That is true: Businesses will simply act rationally to improve their lot, and if that means getting in bed with the sleazeball politician, so be it. The source of the problem lies with government. Period.
They [politicians] are the ones looking for a payout, and with anyone.
Anyone is the proper word, as it includes not only businesses, but also special interest groups, unions, so-called "non-profit organizations" and other hordes of rent-seeking leeches.
Well, yeah, but you could say that of most wage earners and salaried persons who work for a single employer -- which is most people, at least in the USA, isn't it?
Orthodox Marxism cynically -- amorally -- rejected the possibility of neutrality and equity in political matters. All government was the special interest of one "class" or another. Just as capitalism ushered in the rule of the bourgeoisie, so would socialism bring about the "dictatorship of the proletariat." But how does capitalism -- that is, the free market -- represent the special interest of "capitalists" (i.e., nonmanual laborers)? If respect for property rights favors "capitalists," then why do corporations seek subsidies (each for its own self, mind you, not for the entirety of its purported "class")? If unregulated commerce leads to monopolization by these "capitalists," then why do real-world businessmen turn to government to provide them with monopoly entitlements (optimally, only for their own company, not for all "capitalists" including their competitors)? And if free trade benefits this class and no other, then why do each country's business leaders -- and union members -- lobby for tariffs on imports? We seem to forget that the classical liberals formulated their principles of private property, laissez faire, and free trade -- rejected by the Left and Big Business alike -- not against the graspings of the have-nots, but in opposition to policies that favored the few over the common good.
[T]he business-government coziness highlights a weakness in the U.S. economy. Businesses that serve government or rely on subsidies are not serving consumer demand, they are serving political demand. This makes the country poorer, as profits are less tied to giving people what they want and more tied to the ability to please politicians.
It also creates a daunting barrier to entry for competitors, as politicians impose regulations, licenses, permits and fees at the behest of their favored business partners, always under the guise of (take your pick): Protecting children/the environment/people/your pet/your finances/your future/your job...
I know several local Chamber board members. They see their lobbying efforts as a way to retrieve stolen funds (taxes) by rent-seeking. Unlike GE, if they have a C corp and make a profit, they pay taxes - once as a corp. and again when they pay dividends.
They understand the Dems will never consent to any meaningful reduction of the corp. tax rates, so they lobby both parties for loopholes, favors and contracts that enable them to recoup.
I believe some who say they wish they didn't have to; others, of course, are always looking for an unfair edge.
I heard there are roughly 6 government contractee employees for every 1 federal worker. Funny how they are not so much the target of GOP Walker-esque rage.
Sure, and that's something that should be stopped. But if you think some bloated contracts compare in magnitude in any way to the public service pension and benefit spending, you're crazy.
I'd prefer they go after all of these parasites, whether a contractor or a government employee, believe me.
"But if you think some bloated contracts compare in magnitude in any way to the public service pension and benefit spending, you're crazy."
If there are six employees supported by government contracts for every one directly employeed by the government I can't see how the former is not larger than the latter.
The contractors don't have to be paid a pension, while not working, for the rest of their life. If the gov employees live 20 years or more after they retire, that will clearly dwarf the contractor spending, not even mentioning health benefits.
Nope. If the Feds are anything like the state of Florida, they just pay obscenely high rates up front, and require you to be employed by or thru a select number of companies who can wet their beak as the money flows to the contractor.
Way oversimplified. It's not spending on campaigns so much as it is the money they can use outside the campaign. Where can Senator Lamebrain find a cushy job to jump into after his "service"? Where can Senator Stuffedpockets send her husband for a no-work $500,000 a year job? Big business. It's not so much that they prop up the campaign specifically, it's that they've got so much money to "help out" generally. Even publically funded campaigns wouldn't stop that.
Moreover, you're assuming that Big Government and Big Business have naturally conflicting goals. That's certainly the dumbed-down history fed to the masses, but the actual history shows that both are obsessed with control and see the other as a helpful means of achieving it: steady easy profits for Big Business, sterilized of bad thoughts for Big Government.
"you're assuming that Big Government and Big Business have naturally conflicting goals."
No I'm counting on it. That's why I support restrictions on Big Business, they will use their power for influence to get benefits from government (big or not, even hundreds of years ago they got sweet deals via land grants, monopolies, etc)
You've got it backwards.
If there were restrictions on government (Rule of Law) then Big Business could not get benefits from government because government wouldn't have the power to grant those benefits to them.
Unfortunately we do not have Rule of Law, we have Rule of Man, and anything goes.
But business will a. get benefits from whatever size government they have (they did it throughout our history) and b. will enlarge government whenever they want via their power and influence (there is no cosmic guardian to make it the "right" size at all times).
When the government was "smaller" it made many a man's fortune through rent-seeking. People seem to be angry at "big government" now that it provides substinence for poor and average people too...
It's not so much about two wrongs making a right, it's about having a government that is going to provide advantages for the wealthy whatever its size, but one that, if made larger, can also provide benefits for everyone else.
Libertarians make the same mistake Marxists make by holding up a utopian alternative, they say "well of course we want a government that advantages nobody!" But that can't happen given the realities of power and influence that money buys. So you can either have one that benefits the few or the many.
They cancelled it after season three. The only official reason I've seen given was: "We felt the story had been told". There were a ton of open story threads left hanging when the ax fell.
It's just MNG, Spoonman. He's referring to Citizens United and McCain-Feingold. He hates principles on principle (the 1st Amendment is great, except for when it's inconvenient), so he denounces them wherever they exist.
I'm not sure I hate principles to point out the humor in libertarians constantly lamenting big government in the service of big business while also being hell bent on protecting the means by which the latter puts the former into its service.
The problem isn't with the free speech. The problem is with the powers that government has for handing out favors to rent-seekers. No rents, no bribes. Simple.
You should read his take on private property, where he argues that it is a good idea except when trying pay for the things he likes (assistance for the poor/elderly/children...) - then he applies a different set of very convenient and pliable ethics.
I'm not sure I hate principles to point out the humor in libertarians constantly lamenting big government in the service of big business while also being hell bent on protecting the means by which the latter puts the former into its service.
AKA free speech.
"We were better off when we had straight Fascism."
I'm not sure I hate principles to point out the humor in libertarians constantly lamenting big government in the service of big business while also being hell bent on protecting the means by which the latter puts the former into its service.
The humor and the irony is that you're the one doing that, MNG.
Campaign finance reform only alters the terms of the deal. Big companies always have enough people on staff to figure out the way around the regulations. The only thing the regulations do is create a barrier to entry and make it harder for the little guy to comply with all the regulations.
The bigger you make the potential rewards, the more it's worth lobbying.
Businesses that serve government or rely on subsidies are not serving consumer demand, they are serving political demand. This makes the country poorer, as profits are less tied to giving people what they want and more tied to the ability to please politicians.
Couldn't agree more. However, nothing in life is easy. When aggregate demand has collapsed (like it did during the Great Recession, which is not quite over), government spending is the only way to restore it. So, instead of a contractor building a house to satisfy private purpose, he is instead paid by the government to repair a road, to satisfy public purpose. In both cases, the contractor and his employees are at least working - doing something productive. Sure, I'd rather let the market decide in every case where the money should be spent. But we're a long way from that in the US. And there are things (like roads) that the market isn't permitted to supply.
It comes down to this: do you really want the contractor's employees sitting idle during a recession and collecting unemployment checks for doing nothing, or is it better to have the government pay them to repair the roads.
For me, the answer is obvious. But then, I'm a practical person, not just a theoretician. And once you've accepted that obvious answer, then it's not surprising that businesses will compete with each other to get the contracts, using all means at their disposal.
It comes down to this: do you really want the contractor's employees sitting idle during a recession and collecting unemployment checks for doing nothing, or is it better to have the government pay them to repair the roads
Holy false dichotomy, Batman!
There is the alternative where the workers start working in other fields satisfying unmet consumer demand. Instead of taxing people and using the money to prop up unsustainable businesses, allow people to chose how they will spend, save or invest that money.
tarran, "aggregate demand collapse" means there aren't significant unmet demands in other fields. That's the point. And although I said it twice in my post, yes, I prefer to have private people allocate their resources privately, as much as possible.
I don't want anyone collecting unemployment checks because aggregate demand collapsed, or for any other reason. You either save for hard times or take what work you can get in hard times, or you starve. Staying alive is a powerful motivator to do just about anything, and all this social safety net bullshit just protects people from the essence of reality. If you want to survive, you have to do things that other people find valuable enough to pay for.
When aggregate demand has collapsed (like it did during the Great Recession, which is not quite over), government spending is the only way to restore it.
The problem is that the aggregate demand was caused by a massive housing bubble with financialized fake investments on top of it. The government can't replace that demand without itself running a massive credit bubble. It baffles me that serious economists are saying, "Remember 2007? Let's go back, this time through government debt instead of consumer!" It's like they forgot about 2008.
As I've been arguing here in other threads, there is a world of difference between government and consumer debt.
Also, for a free marketeer, even accepting the idea of a "bubble" in anything is problematic: it's not recognized as a "bubble" until it pops. "Captain Hindsight" always spots bubbles. But otherwise, they just look like people doing what they wish with their money, and responding to incentives and market prices, which in this case are rising.
The Tea Party Republicans are very similar to the "Class of '94" Republicans, who in turn drew on a lot of the H. Ross Perot enthusiasm for cutting government.
The problem is, right-wing populists always end up caving to the corporate power. They talk about eliminating corporate welfare but they end up adding to it. They cut programs for "the poor," which often need cutting, but freeze in terror of cutting Defense. Education wastes its billions, but Defense wastes its hundreds of billions. In the past, the public has always vented its hatred of government by cutting taxes rather than spending. It will be interesting to see what happens this time around.
Dow Jones Newswires quoted Reid saying that Donahue "told more than 100 Republicans yesterday at an event that they were making a huge mistake shutting down the government."
You freaking tool, there's no law requiring pols to negotiate with the chamber, like there is for the unions.
You've heard plenty of people on here say they're not opposed to the existence of unions...freedom of association and all...just opposed to laws saying that one must deal with them. The chamber has no laws saying they MUST be dealt with. And, in fact, the chamber does NOT always get it's way. It wanted GWs immigration reform in the worst way, and didn't get it, to use a recent example.
The laws enacted by the politicians that the public sector unions got elected. It's politicians and public sector unions tag-team gang raping the taxpaying public.
I was able to pick a state at random and find this elusive law in moments. From Kentucky's collective bargaining law: Public employers, their representatives or their agents are prohibited from:
...
(e) Refusing to bargain collectively in good faith with a labor organization which is the exclusive representative of employees in an appropriate unit, including but not limited to the discussing of grievances with the exclusive representative
The contradiction stems from the divergent agendas of the Tea Partiers and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The chamber supported Troubled Asset Relief Program, stimulus, cash for clunkers, green subsidies, and Obama's proposed new infrastructure spending -- all of which The Tea Party opposed.
Is it wrong for me to hope that Donahue gets run over by a used Prius?
It's not "business" that is so dependent on government, it's "big business." And they'll do just fine without it. It's just that it's sooooooo much easier to make money when all you have to do is pay lobbyists and accountants to do their thing. That's WAY easier than working hard to invent & improve products, deliver services, meet customer needs, you know, all that businessy stuff.
I disagree. Without it, they're fucked.
Well, I don't know if it's easier, so much as that you have to do that anyway. In modern terms, "monopoly" means "large, successful business without a lobbying branch in Washington".
If it wasn't easier, they would devote the resources somewhere else.
It's not even big business, it's just a few big businesses. How many businesses benefit from cash for clunkers, green subsidies, TARP, etc.?
So who the heck supports the US Chamber of Commerce? Is it of a different kind from the local chambers of commerce? Are they supported by people who are more or less hoodwinked into thinking it's in their interest when it's really not?
Doing business is hard!
Don't worry your pretty little CEO head, Barbie. I'll take care of everything!
Are you deliberately trying to summon Rather?
Oops, too late. I just looked downthread.
Hey it's not me who's sexist. One of the 270 phrases of the infamous 1992 Teen Talk Barbie was "Math class is tough!", often misquoted as "Math is hard!".
It's breaking my heart. Diversify, fuckers. If you only have one profitable client and it goes under, you're fucked. Thinking the government could be that one client was the problem. You deserve to fail if you aren't prepared to diversify.
They and the politicians will do everything in their power to make sure it doesn't go under, so it wasn't exactly a bad bet.
So we should just add them to the list of businesses that can't be allowed to fail? I'll get up on a goddam soapbox right here in H&R about this.
Sorry, I know you're just pointing out the actual truth, but this is getting ridiculous.
Of course it's ridiculous. It's obscene. But it's also the absolute norm now in Washington, and I don't see it changing, as there are no reasons for politicians to change it, other than potentially pleasing "Tea Party" voters, who they can probably bait and switch enough to please without changing anything anyway.
Re: Episiarch,
That is true: Businesses will simply act rationally to improve their lot, and if that means getting in bed with the sleazeball politician, so be it. The source of the problem lies with government. Period.
The problems isn't business but the politicians who serve them exclusively. They are the ones looking for a payout, and with anyone.
Doing business with people who can't be trusted is a risky proposition.
You're starting to sound like a libertarian, small dick!
Re: rather,
Anyone is the proper word, as it includes not only businesses, but also special interest groups, unions, so-called "non-profit organizations" and other hordes of rent-seeking leeches.
Well, yeah, but you could say that of most wage earners and salaried persons who work for a single employer -- which is most people, at least in the USA, isn't it?
From HERE:
PLUS 1000!
The Chamber of Commerce just wants the tea party red staters to fall in line with saint Abraham's program, i.e., the so called "American System".
Fuck 'em. Let it shut down for a few weeks.
"Fuck 'em. Let it shut down for a few weeks months."
I could use a break on my commute.
The State Is Not Great: How Government Poisons Everything
I wouldnt expect anything less from a bunch of bought and paid for, corrupt politicians.
http://www.being-anon.int.tc
It also creates a daunting barrier to entry for competitors, as politicians impose regulations, licenses, permits and fees at the behest of their favored business partners, always under the guise of (take your pick): Protecting children/the environment/people/your pet/your finances/your future/your job...
And people think the Kochtopus is some all-powerful conspiracy with tentacles everywhere.
I know several local Chamber board members. They see their lobbying efforts as a way to retrieve stolen funds (taxes) by rent-seeking. Unlike GE, if they have a C corp and make a profit, they pay taxes - once as a corp. and again when they pay dividends.
They understand the Dems will never consent to any meaningful reduction of the corp. tax rates, so they lobby both parties for loopholes, favors and contracts that enable them to recoup.
I believe some who say they wish they didn't have to; others, of course, are always looking for an unfair edge.
I agree with the sentiment, and I think everyone should try to recoup similarly, as long as they realize that's what they're trying to do.
Everyone will get paid retroactively anyway, so it's nothing but a paid vacation.
I'll show you a chamber with a lot of muscle behind it.
I heard there are roughly 6 government contractee employees for every 1 federal worker. Funny how they are not so much the target of GOP Walker-esque rage.
Do the contractees have obscene pension and benefits packages that they contribute nothing or almost nothing to?
They have bloated often non-competitive no bid contracts. I imagine they use some of that for nice perks though.
Sure, and that's something that should be stopped. But if you think some bloated contracts compare in magnitude in any way to the public service pension and benefit spending, you're crazy.
I'd prefer they go after all of these parasites, whether a contractor or a government employee, believe me.
"But if you think some bloated contracts compare in magnitude in any way to the public service pension and benefit spending, you're crazy."
If there are six employees supported by government contracts for every one directly employeed by the government I can't see how the former is not larger than the latter.
The contractors don't have to be paid a pension, while not working, for the rest of their life. If the gov employees live 20 years or more after they retire, that will clearly dwarf the contractor spending, not even mentioning health benefits.
You don't think the companies that get government contracts to make 100 dollar toilet seats provide nice pensions and benefits to their employees?
Mine fucking well doesn't. They pay me 1099.
Uh...it depends, and in any case, I guarantee you they make sure the employees contribute.
You're grasping.
Because the contractors are not a long term obligation. Duh.
Neither are the public employees either really but they are still more difficult to eliminate.
Tearing down the entire 8(a) program would be a step in the right direction. It's rife with fraud, corruption, and outright theft.
Nope. If the Feds are anything like the state of Florida, they just pay obscenely high rates up front, and require you to be employed by or thru a select number of companies who can wet their beak as the money flows to the contractor.
All of this government rent-seeking businesses get from their ability to give our pols so much money.
If only there were a law to address that...
Way oversimplified. It's not spending on campaigns so much as it is the money they can use outside the campaign. Where can Senator Lamebrain find a cushy job to jump into after his "service"? Where can Senator Stuffedpockets send her husband for a no-work $500,000 a year job? Big business. It's not so much that they prop up the campaign specifically, it's that they've got so much money to "help out" generally. Even publically funded campaigns wouldn't stop that.
Moreover, you're assuming that Big Government and Big Business have naturally conflicting goals. That's certainly the dumbed-down history fed to the masses, but the actual history shows that both are obsessed with control and see the other as a helpful means of achieving it: steady easy profits for Big Business, sterilized of bad thoughts for Big Government.
"you're assuming that Big Government and Big Business have naturally conflicting goals."
No I'm counting on it. That's why I support restrictions on Big Business, they will use their power for influence to get benefits from government (big or not, even hundreds of years ago they got sweet deals via land grants, monopolies, etc)
You've got it backwards.
If there were restrictions on government (Rule of Law) then Big Business could not get benefits from government because government wouldn't have the power to grant those benefits to them.
Unfortunately we do not have Rule of Law, we have Rule of Man, and anything goes.
But business will a. get benefits from whatever size government they have (they did it throughout our history) and b. will enlarge government whenever they want via their power and influence (there is no cosmic guardian to make it the "right" size at all times).
When the government was "smaller" it made many a man's fortune through rent-seeking. People seem to be angry at "big government" now that it provides substinence for poor and average people too...
Since when did two wrongs make a right?
It's not so much about two wrongs making a right, it's about having a government that is going to provide advantages for the wealthy whatever its size, but one that, if made larger, can also provide benefits for everyone else.
Libertarians make the same mistake Marxists make by holding up a utopian alternative, they say "well of course we want a government that advantages nobody!" But that can't happen given the realities of power and influence that money buys. So you can either have one that benefits the few or the many.
"So you can either have one that benefits the few or the many."
I choose option c.
Re: MNG,
... which belies this belief you have:
"No[,] I'm counting on [Big Government and Big Business having naturally conflicting goals.] That's why I support restrictions on Big Business[...]"
Suspend reason for a second, so this can sink in, folks!
See? As long as government hands out giveaways to the "needy," then the fact that it cozies up to big money interests becomes a never mind!
Up is down. The end justifies the means.
MNG, I am sorry I have to say this: You're sounding like Tony. I know, I am being harsh, but I do like you and you do need an intervention so hard...
sarcasmic is right. Money is attracted to power, not the other way around.
I thought this was beautifully illustrated in the HBO series Deadwood.
Did they ever wrap that up?
Too many loose threads.
They cancelled it after season three. The only official reason I've seen given was: "We felt the story had been told". There were a ton of open story threads left hanging when the ax fell.
No I'm counting on [their having conflicting goals].
Except history doesn't bear you out. Big Government and Big Business often have mutually-reinforcing goals: namely, control and predictable results.
I agree, the only way to take money out of politics is to take politics out of money.
No. You have it backwards. The rent-seeking comes from the ability of our government to give THEM so much money. You understand that don't you?
No, he really doesn't.
Re: MNG,
It would simply limit the handouts to a shorter and thereby more powerful cartel of rent-seekers, MNG.
Look, a unicorn, MNG!!!
Could also have been titled: "Libertarians cut off nose to spite face"
Who in this story is a libertarian?
It's just MNG, Spoonman. He's referring to Citizens United and McCain-Feingold. He hates principles on principle (the 1st Amendment is great, except for when it's inconvenient), so he denounces them wherever they exist.
I'm not sure I hate principles to point out the humor in libertarians constantly lamenting big government in the service of big business while also being hell bent on protecting the means by which the latter puts the former into its service.
The problem isn't with the free speech. The problem is with the powers that government has for handing out favors to rent-seekers. No rents, no bribes. Simple.
"no rent, no bribes"? are u sure? how would u know? got tomorrows lottery numbers?
No rents, no bribes. Simple.
Whoa...whoa! Slow down!
There is no way you are that dense.
Re: DesignNate,
You should read his take on private property, where he argues that it is a good idea except when trying pay for the things he likes (assistance for the poor/elderly/children...) - then he applies a different set of very convenient and pliable ethics.
Re: MNG,
AKA free speech.
"We were better off when we had straight Fascism."
I'm not sure I hate principles to point out the humor in libertarians constantly lamenting big government in the service of big business while also being hell bent on protecting the means by which the latter puts the former into its service.
The humor and the irony is that you're the one doing that, MNG.
Campaign finance reform only alters the terms of the deal. Big companies always have enough people on staff to figure out the way around the regulations. The only thing the regulations do is create a barrier to entry and make it harder for the little guy to comply with all the regulations.
The bigger you make the potential rewards, the more it's worth lobbying.
Businesses that serve government or rely on subsidies are not serving consumer demand, they are serving political demand. This makes the country poorer, as profits are less tied to giving people what they want and more tied to the ability to please politicians.
Couldn't agree more. However, nothing in life is easy. When aggregate demand has collapsed (like it did during the Great Recession, which is not quite over), government spending is the only way to restore it. So, instead of a contractor building a house to satisfy private purpose, he is instead paid by the government to repair a road, to satisfy public purpose. In both cases, the contractor and his employees are at least working - doing something productive. Sure, I'd rather let the market decide in every case where the money should be spent. But we're a long way from that in the US. And there are things (like roads) that the market isn't permitted to supply.
It comes down to this: do you really want the contractor's employees sitting idle during a recession and collecting unemployment checks for doing nothing, or is it better to have the government pay them to repair the roads.
For me, the answer is obvious. But then, I'm a practical person, not just a theoretician. And once you've accepted that obvious answer, then it's not surprising that businesses will compete with each other to get the contracts, using all means at their disposal.
HAHAHA
Aggregate Demand....Drink
Roads.....Drink
Market isn't permitted to supply...Drink (market failure)
Stop it man, it's way too early in the day, and i'm at work.
Holy false dichotomy, Batman!
There is the alternative where the workers start working in other fields satisfying unmet consumer demand. Instead of taxing people and using the money to prop up unsustainable businesses, allow people to chose how they will spend, save or invest that money.
tarran, "aggregate demand collapse" means there aren't significant unmet demands in other fields. That's the point. And although I said it twice in my post, yes, I prefer to have private people allocate their resources privately, as much as possible.
You mean that all are wants are satisfied? That we have paradise on Earth? Scarcity has been conquered?
That must explain why commodity prices are going down, we need consume no more per capita.
I don't want anyone collecting unemployment checks because aggregate demand collapsed, or for any other reason. You either save for hard times or take what work you can get in hard times, or you starve. Staying alive is a powerful motivator to do just about anything, and all this social safety net bullshit just protects people from the essence of reality. If you want to survive, you have to do things that other people find valuable enough to pay for.
When aggregate demand has collapsed (like it did during the Great Recession, which is not quite over), government spending is the only way to restore it.
The problem is that the aggregate demand was caused by a massive housing bubble with financialized fake investments on top of it. The government can't replace that demand without itself running a massive credit bubble. It baffles me that serious economists are saying, "Remember 2007? Let's go back, this time through government debt instead of consumer!" It's like they forgot about 2008.
As I've been arguing here in other threads, there is a world of difference between government and consumer debt.
Also, for a free marketeer, even accepting the idea of a "bubble" in anything is problematic: it's not recognized as a "bubble" until it pops. "Captain Hindsight" always spots bubbles. But otherwise, they just look like people doing what they wish with their money, and responding to incentives and market prices, which in this case are rising.
So the government has spent untold billions since 2001, we should be riding high on the fucking hog right now, right?
Defense contractors sure are.
The Tea Party Republicans are very similar to the "Class of '94" Republicans, who in turn drew on a lot of the H. Ross Perot enthusiasm for cutting government.
The problem is, right-wing populists always end up caving to the corporate power. They talk about eliminating corporate welfare but they end up adding to it. They cut programs for "the poor," which often need cutting, but freeze in terror of cutting Defense. Education wastes its billions, but Defense wastes its hundreds of billions. In the past, the public has always vented its hatred of government by cutting taxes rather than spending. It will be interesting to see what happens this time around.
That makes sense. What have you done with the real Vanneman?
Dow Jones Newswires quoted Reid saying that Donahue "told more than 100 Republicans yesterday at an event that they were making a huge mistake shutting down the government."
"I didn't get a harumph out of you!"
Business Roundtable head John Engler personally lectured Boehner on keeping government running for the sake of government contractors....
We're DOOOOOOOOMED, I tells ya.
Union thugs!
Oh wait, corporations are allowed to collectively bargain (via the Chamber). Because their voices are drowned out by those of teachers and janitors.
I do wish you'd stop posting here. I'm getting crows feet from all the cringing.
I don't know. Tells you a lot about the weak minds the left seems to attract.
That's only because you use still-warm fetal tissue as a facial mask to erase those fine lines and wrinkles.
I have the skin of a very hairy baby.
You freaking tool, there's no law requiring pols to negotiate with the chamber, like there is for the unions.
You've heard plenty of people on here say they're not opposed to the existence of unions...freedom of association and all...just opposed to laws saying that one must deal with them. The chamber has no laws saying they MUST be dealt with. And, in fact, the chamber does NOT always get it's way. It wanted GWs immigration reform in the worst way, and didn't get it, to use a recent example.
What law requires politicians to negotiate with unions?
The laws enacted by the politicians that the public sector unions got elected. It's politicians and public sector unions tag-team gang raping the taxpaying public.
I was able to pick a state at random and find this elusive law in moments. From Kentucky's collective bargaining law:
Public employers, their representatives or their agents are prohibited from:
...
(e) Refusing to bargain collectively in good faith with a labor organization which is the exclusive representative of employees in an appropriate unit, including but not limited to the discussing of grievances with the exclusive representative
You can research this further, if you care to.
The contradiction stems from the divergent agendas of the Tea Partiers and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The chamber supported Troubled Asset Relief Program, stimulus, cash for clunkers, green subsidies, and Obama's proposed new infrastructure spending -- all of which The Tea Party opposed.
Is it wrong for me to hope that Donahue gets run over by a used Prius?
The State Is Not Great: How Government Poisons Everything
Is it wrong for me to hope that Donahue gets run over by a used Prius?
I would much rather see him get electrocuted while plugging his VOLT into a General Electric charging station.
corporations are allowed to collectively bargain (via the Chamber). Because their voices are drowned out by those of teachers and janitors.
Golly; I never looked at it that way.
But I'm not an idiot suffering from the vapors.
I would much rather see him get electrocuted while plugging his VOLT into a General Electric charging station.
Being sliced in half by one of T-Bone Picken's windmills is also an acceptable answer.
What law requires politicians to negotiate with unions?
Go ask the (elected) school board whether they are legally allowed to bypass the union, you ignoramus.