Crime

The Minuteman Murder Case

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The popular war on immigrants may have turned to murder last May, if the police's case against Minuteman leader Shawna Forde in an Arizona double murder trial going on now holds up. Details on the hideous case from the British Daily Mail [link goes to proper place now]:

A nine-year-old girl begged for her life before being shot dead along with her father by an anti-immigrant vigilante group, a court heard.

Brisenia Flores was gunned down at point-blank range in her own home in Flores, Arizona, as her terrified mother Gina Gonzalez, who had also been hit, played dead on the floor.

She sobbed as the court was told how she had heard Brisenia's desperate pleas as her killer stood over her. 

'I can hear it happening,' Mrs Flores told the court describing how her daughter said: 'Why did you shoot my dad? Why did you shoot my mum?'….

The prosecution alleges that the child and her father Raul Flores Jr were murdered in May 30, 2009 by a group of vigilantes set up to tackle Mexican immigrants…..

Shawna Forde, the head of the Minutemen American Defence group, is on trial accused of two charges of first degree murder.

She is allegedly orchestrated the attack on the Flores family with two male accomplices, due to face face court in.March.

Police claim that Forde believed Mr Flores was a drug trafficker and would have cash and goods in the house which they could use to fund their patrols.

She reportedly led the raid and gave instructions to the male accomplices.

The murdered father thought the woman and man who invaded were cops at the door; other accounts say that the woman identified herself as such and claimed the family was harboring a fugitive. During the murders, the surviving mother was able to shoot back at one of the killers. According to the Mail:

Forde was arrested shortly after the shooting. She had Mrs Gonzalez's wedding ring and other jewellery, according to police…..Forde's lawyer Eric Larsen told the court that she was not at the house and that much of the evidence was circumstantial 

An L.A. Times account has more on the background, though neither story really explains the circumstances under which Forde was arrested. (This story from Gather.com says that when the wounded man, Jason Bush, was arrested, he implicated Forde):

Prosecutors say that in April 2009, Forde told two members of the movement in Denver that she had linked up with drug dealers in the tiny town of Arivaca, Ariz., just north of the Mexican border and about 50 miles southwest of Tucson. She proposed helping the dealers raid a rival's house, which would be full of drug profits she could steal, prosecutors allege.

The plan so alarmed the members, prosecutors say, that they contacted the FBI. But Larson said it was such an obviously outlandish idea that the FBI did nothing with it…..

Gonzalez testified that the woman in the house looked like Forde, but she said she couldn't definitively say it was her "because I don't know her personally." She failed to identify Forde in a police lineup after the shooting.

Forde had Gonzalez's wedding ring and jewelry with her when she was arrested days after the shooting, authorities say. Shortly after her arrest, members of the Minutemen movement disavowed her, saying they did not trust her and that she had stayed on its fringes.

A history of Forde's shady past from her old hometown of Everett, Washington, including being a suspect in the shooting of her ex-husband and perhaps a faked beating and rape claim on herself. A Forde friend booted from the courtroom for showing up in disguise; the judge doesn't want her there until she's called as a witness.

Past Reason writings on Arizona Minutemen.

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  1. Huh, I just saw an article about this and was going to comment that I was surprised I hadn’t seen it reported here. Still, it looks as much a case of plain old greed-based home invasion as of anti-immigrant hate.

    1. Yup. Interesting litmus test, however. Libertarians rightly reject the concept of “hate” crimes, correct? Murder is murder, regardless of the motive.

      1. Yup, murder is murder. The reasoning is not of consequence and the act no more vile.

        1. Not that murdering a child and father in cold blood needs to be made any more vile.

          1. Still murder. Assigning any intent outside of that to kill is not only virtually impossible to prove, it doesn’t have a bearing on the crime itself.

            intent to kill is the intent to kill, regardless of it being over skin color, age, penis size, color of eye…

            1. Right — and outrage over the beyond-indefensible actions described above is certainly warranted.

              1. Sure. It’s heinous. Not that libertarians favor the death penalty in such heinous crimes. Oh noes, can’t let “the state” kill people. Two wrongs don’t make a right. You can’t be sure. They might be innocent, ad nauseam.

                1. I concur troll.

                2. Or, you know, the real argument… that giving the state the greenlight to kill anyone in a non-defense situation is giving them the greenlight to justify killing anyone they damn well please.

                  Of course as long as the “right” people are in charge and they are only killing the “guilty,” then nothing can ever go wrong, can it Dashy?

                  1. Dashy’s pretty bloodthirsty for being so passive aggressive. I bet you he’s just amazing at Counterstrike.

                3. A person who has no respect for the lives of others deserves to have his taken away, but I would never trust the state with this power and responsibility.

                  1. Who, then? Take volunteers from the citizenry? They (the jury) after all, are the ones who determine guilt, not the state. But if your problem is with the state, then you must also have a problem with juries and and entire justice system. So when you say a murderer forfeits his life, how would you make that a reality?

                    1. Easiest way, IMO, is to allow the death penalty if every prosecuting attorney who speaks in court and every witness called by the prosecution gives the following affirmation/takes the following oath before speaking:

                      “I have no doubt that this individual committed the crime of murder and could be executed. If they are executed and subsequently exonerated, I give up any legal claim I may have to life, recognizing that this shall give anybody charged with any crime against myself or my property an affirmative defense.”

                      If any such person does not take the oath or make the affirmation, then a death sentence may not be returned. Upon conviction, the jurors would each individually have to do likewise in order for a death sentence to be returned, as would the judge.

                    2. Eh. I guess in an anarchist state, “s/he neeeded killing” might result in a light sentence or dismissal. The executioner would still be tried in ways that the state isn’t.

                    3. No one, numbnuts. Unless you are right there, defending yourself or the person who is under attack, there is no proof strong enough to allow society to kill a man.

                    4. No one, numbnuts. Unless you are right there, defending yourself or the person who is under attack, there is no proof strong enough to allow society to kill a man.

                      This standard is unworkable. If we can’t ever prove guilt of a murderer after the event, then how do we prove the innocence of the person who killed in self-defense?

                    5. It’s not just the amount of uncertainty, it’s the consequence of being wrong. Letting the guilty go free is more preferable than killing the innocent. It would take less proof to justify letting someone off for self defense than it would to justify the death penalty for a suspect.

                    6. Who, then? Take volunteers from the citizenry? They (the jury) after all, are the ones who determine guilt, not the state. But if your problem is with the state, then you must also have a problem with juries and and entire justice system. So when you say a murderer forfeits his life, how would you make that a reality?

                      The jury determines guilt…based on the evidence the prosecution allows and the testimony of witnesses…often police officers who have been caught manufacturing or manipulating evidence and manufacturing or manipulating other witnesses.

                    7. Lock him up and let old age throw the switch.

                4. That’s a really good argument against the death penalty. I think you just got floored by your own straw man.

                  1. That was meant in reply to -‘s comment at 3:57.

  2. This Shawna Forde sounds like a piece of flippin’ work.

    Didn’t the Militia Movement shun McVeigh because he was too cuckoo bananas for them?

    1. What’s your point?

      1. That there are people so crazy, that crazy groups find them to be too crazy.

        1. Like Sarah Palin. Ha!

          1. And Michele Bachmann. What’s her story? Is she insane? A lobotomy? Ha!

            1. Now you’re talkin’ crazy.

              1. Ha!

        2. That there are people so crazy, that crazy groups find them to be too crazy.

          Why do you call the militia movement “crazy groups?” Do you have something against voluntary participation in groups who wish to uphold the Constitution?

          (Unless you are referring to what the press considers the “militias,” as opposed to what most of them really are.)

  3. Who does she think she is shooting drug dealers and stealing their shit?

    Only the police are allowed to do that!

    1. Ha!

    2. The murdered father thought the woman and man who invaded were cops at the door

      Cops are indistinguishable from a thieving, murderous gang, and vice versa. Fuck.

      1. They’re quite distinguishable.

        They’re the ones who get away with it.

        1. Ha!

          1. Good point, Chris!

  4. I’m not sure much is served by any attempt to marry this criminal with legitimate anti-illegal immigration groups. That kind of thing backfired (please excuse the violent terminology) in the Tucson shooting case.

    1. Very much what I was thinking. She’s more (allegedly) a gang leader than someone pushing a poltical view.

      1. Yeah. Doherty should leave the incendiary propaganda to Balko.

        1. Go run a death camp somewhere you fucking Nazi

      2. I know what you’re saying, but their choice of victims is clearly tied to her political views. That’s not to say there’s a causal link to be drawn there, but it seems like a big enough part of the story that not reporting on the link to the minutemen thing would be pretty sloppy reporting.

        1. No problem with reporting the connection. A little problem with entitling it ‘The Minuteman Murder Case’.

          All the bad reporting in the world on drugs and muslims and everything else does the same thing. (e.g. ‘The Craiglist Killer’)

          1. Yeah, fair enough.

            1. Seems legit to tie it anti immigrant groups since the prosecutors are alleging that she and her anti immigrant group were engaging in a robbery to fund their anti immigrant group. If that doesn’t tie this to an anti immigrant group, then I can’t imagine what would.

              1. She proposed helping the dealers raid a rival’s house, which would be full of drug profits she could steal, prosecutors allege.

                Allegedly , her original plan was to help Mexican drug dealers rob the victims. Forde seemed to switch back and forth between “pro-” and “anti-” immigrant accomplices.

              2. Not only that, but she probably thought they would more or less get away with it because illegal immigrants can’t report crimes to authorities in Arizona without potentially blowing their cover. The unintended consequences of the AZ law…

  5. If she did this, throw the fucking book at her.

    1. All 13 hardcovers of the Wheel of Time? (just one left, Epi and my insanity will be complete).

      1. You are a masochist of the highest order. In a way, I am impressed.

      2. Your pain tolerance is astounding. Next, read L. Ron Hubbard’s works.

        1. That is some hate speech right there

        2. I’ve read the entire Decology. If not for the overly frequent scenes of depraved sex, I would never have made made it past the first volume.

    2. Law-and-order Episiarch. Ha!

      1. Hey, anonypussy, you haven’t been around for a few days. That depressive cycle of your bipolar disorder had you pretty down, didn’t it. I hope you suffered.

        1. Ha!

        2. You do realize that you are railing at rectal’s dead dad, right?

          1. Or is it… Dad’s dead rectal?

            1. There is a difference?

        3. I’m surprised your nemesis didn’t jump into the pizza battle the other day. Which Hit & Run didn’t take down, despite the new Happy, Happy! policy. Odd, because I’m sure I used some uncivil punctuation in one of my comments.

          1. There was another pizza battle? Dammit, the outside world is taking up way too much of my time. I miss all the good shit.

            Christ, I can’t even remember who likes what kinds any more.

            …And what is up with the HAPPYHAPPYHORESHIT! at the top o’ the comments? Is Reason caving to the civility monster?

            You know who else wanted commenters to be civil?

            1. I was just reading something that said that Hitler often ordered cheese pizza because it was all that he could get without meat. Thin, Nazi pizza.

              1. People will rail on and on about abortion, illegal immigration, etc, etc, but when the great pizza debate comes up people say “whoa, I’m staying out of that shit.” These arguments get nasty(and I ain’t talkin about that doughy abortion that you call pizza, either).

                1. At least I’m not a fascist.

                  1. You can’t spell Mussolini without a U an N or an O.

                    You know who else is from Chicago?

                    1. Bill Murray?

                    2. Bill Murray is this country’s most precious resource, therefore I would say that he is from America.

                      Show a little respect, dude.

          2. It’s a stalker, ProL. Get your terminology right. A bipolar stalker.

            1. I stand corrected. Editor, please revise my comments accordingly.

            2. Poor baby thinks everyone is stalking him. Narcissism or paranoia?

              1. “Stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself.”

                1. Three minutes to Wapner!

              2. Wait, editor, there appears to be a dispute.

    3. Male prison, general population, with a carton of cigarettes to the first inmate to cause her orifices to prolapse.

      Okay, not really. But stories like this are why I can at least understand why many people still believe in the death penalty.

      1. Some people still believe in justice.

        1. Oh ho, that is rich.

  6. Wow. My biggest fear is that my buggy woman picking wetware will get me involved with one of these truly crazy ones. I mean, I’m not going to shoot anyone just because a woman asks me, but I also don’t want to be shot by her crazy ass.

    1. Anytime I hear about some guy who’s been suckered into a life of crime by a woman all I can think is, she must suck the chrome off a Harley.

  7. Bad link in the first paragraph.

    1. Thanks Colin. It should go to the right place now, if you refresh.

  8. Seriously ridiculous stiff. The whole situation is one giant: What The Fuck?

    At least the wounded Mom was able to shoot back AND hit one of them.

    1. This is why we need stronger gun control.

      1. To get better hits on target?

      2. Oh, snap!

  9. Larson said it was such an obviously outlandish idea that the FBI did nothing with it…..

    Or, possibly, a “Not invented here” response.

    1. What is outlandish about a plan to raid a suspected drug dealer’s home and steal shit? The Minutemen angle makes it unusual, but not outlandish.

      1. Knew a pillhead once who got peppered with birdshot while robbing a dealer’s house. When asked why he would rob a dealer’s house his response was: “Because that’s where the cash and the dope is!”

        After that we thought of him as crazy rather than stupid.

  10. APD cops accused of fondling men during traffic stop

    Two men pulled over by Atlanta police last June say they were fondled and humiliated by three officers with APD’s Red Dog unit, Channel 2 Action News reports.

    http://www.ajc.com/news/atlant…..e=rss_news

    1. They still make Red Dog beer? That shit was fucking vile.

      1. Not as vile as these cops. APD’s Red Dog unit has a history of strip / cavity-searching people on the side of the road in the middle of the afternoon.

  11. So this Shawna Forde woman is single, then? She sounds hawt!!

  12. Why doesn’t Balko write about this as a consequence of the prohibition of drugs? This is nothing more than a robbery and murder of a drug dealer by a scumbag. Quit trying to make it into an illegal alien sob story Doherty, you pussy ass liberal.

  13. Next thing you know, criminals will don jackets with “FBI” or “POLICE” across the back in giant, yellow letters and….

    Wha…? Oh…..never mind.

  14. The murdered father thought the woman and man who invaded were cops at the door; other accounts say that the woman identified herself as such as claimed the family was harboring a fugitive. During the murders, the surviving mother was able to shoot back at one of the killers.

    Good grief, Doherty, you’re even more incoherent than usual, today.

    Where are all our Progressive buddies to explain how those crazy paranoid Arizonans should all be disarmed, because defending yourself and your home is just a demented fantasy with no basis in fact?

  15. Has it been established that the victims were actually drug dealers? (It doesn’t really affect my feelings one way or the other, but I’m curious).

  16. 99.9% of The Minutemen have not committed any crimes. However,

    In Los Angeles, 95% of some 1,500 outstanding warrants for homicides are for illegal aliens. About 67% of the 17,000 outstanding fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

    Illegal aliens commit between 700,000 to 1,289,000 or more crimes per year.

    Illegal aliens commit at least 2,158 murders each year ? a number that represents three times greater participation than their proportion of the population.

    Illegal alien sexual predators commit an estimated 130,909 sexual crimes each year.

    In Operation Predator, ICE arrested and deported 6,085 illegal alien pedophiles. Some studies suggest each pedophile molests average of 148 children. If so, that could be as many as 900,580 victims.
    Source: http://www.usillegalaliens.com…..mmary.html

    So why doesn’t Reason do an article about that instead of focusing on one Minutemen killing people?

    Seriously, what’s so politically incorrect about enforcing immigration laws? We enforce property laws, do we not? Is America not our property? Do we not get a say into who comes here and who doesn’t?

    You know, the last time I took a cruise I had to bring a PASSPORT, see? Cruises don’t allow illegal aliens, you have to show DOCUMENTS. So why the hell not do the same with illegal aliens?

    BRITISH NHS SUED BY FAT TAXPAYER.
    http://libertarians4freedom.bl…..g-him.html

    1. I’M GREG SMITH 99% OF ME IS TICKLE MONSTER. .1% OF ME IS FUN LOVING PASSPORT HAVING CRUISE GOER. 82% OF ME LIKES TO TAKE LONG WALKS ON THE BEACH, 18% LIKES TO STOMP ANCHORBABIES!!HATE’EM!1. MARK 10:38 THOU SHALL DEPORT THE ILLEGAL ALIEN IN THOUESTS PANTS 100%

      REPLY TO COMMANDER

      1. Tell you what, capitol I, when I can get a job in Mexico without a greencard then maybe I won’t mind the beaners coming here illegally. Until the, mi casa NO ES su casa! They say, “gringo, go home.”? I say “Wetback, come legally!”

        1. Stop! You’re killin’ me! Fuckin’ comedy gold!

        2. Have you tried getting a job in Mexico without a greencard?

          I thought not.

          Also, why the fuck would you go on a cruise?

      2. Not to pick a fight CI, but why isn’t it possible to hate the policy without hating the people?

        1. If this is for me then I’ll give you an answer.

          It is entirely possible to have a beef with immigration policy, and have nary a Mexican hating bone in your body. On the other hand, you’ll have dipshits like Greg here that take all of two posts to start in with the “beaners, and wetbacks”.

          Usually it doesn’t take much prodding to get the people that hate the policy to get all stabby towards our tanner neighbors.

          You should hear Gregory go on about “the blacks.”

          1. Its the Canucks stealing our property in FL that gets me hot. Go back to Canadia, EH!

            1. Those French speaking fuckers smuggle in Timbits to make us fat and complacent…

          2. I welcome the hard working, law-abiding chili-bellies to El Norte. Chickens don’t gut dey own selves.

          3. I’m a POLITICALLY INCORRECT LIBERTARIAN, besides, if you can call me a “dipshit,” I can call an illegal alien from Mexico a wetback or “dryback” if he comes through the desert.

            Besides, did I say I have no problem with illegal aliens from Canada and Europe?

            Oh, and what about the identity theft some aliens engage in? Like stolen social security cards, fraudulent green cards, and so on?

            Libertarian doesn’t mean anarchy.

        2. @Kant

          Also, note that it only took zeroentitlement 3 posts to play his “greasy wetback” card.

          Maybe he is in no way is prejudiced against Mexicans, and I am to obtuse to grok the nuance of his policy dispute. Or not.

      3. “Is America not our property?”
        Er, no. No it’s not.
        (This guy’s a spoof, no?)

        1. I think it’s “Whatever” resurrected. Tacofucker, indeed.

        2. Sorry. I missed the part about 900,580 pedophile victims.
          (So the answer to my question is obvious.)
          I tip my hat to the clever satirist.

          1. To be accurate, by his own math, that would be 900,850 for their collective careers, not per annum.

            He’s still a douche, but I like accuracy.

            1. Oh, sorry. New policy. He’s a refreshing, internal rinse based on a mild acid.

              1. And you know — I like feeling fresh!

    2. “99.9% of The Minutemen have not committed any crimes.”

      [citation needed]

      You realize that means only one out of every one thousand of their members have EVER committed ANY crimes. If your whole argument is based upon statistics, here is a PROTIP: Don’t start your rant off with an insanely inaccurate one.

      1. Ah, but did you know that 99.9 percent of Minutemen will be molested by a Mexican sometime during their lives?

        1. The beaners come here and molest, but did you know that the Mexican government won’t allow Minutemen to molest in Mexico!
          I mean, what the fuck is up with that?

          1. The beaners come to steal our jobs and when they’ve done stealing our jobs they’re gonna steal all our white women.

            1. Which would be cool and all if the Mexican government would let us steal some brown chicks.
              But they don’t, do they?

              1. If that changes, dibs on Sof?a Margarita Vergara Vergara. OK, she’s Columbian, but you can’t blame a guy for trying.

    3. Totally agreed. If the majority of taxpaying property owners of a community do not want a certain kind of people living among them, especially a kind of people who willfully break the law, I have no problem with the community telling them that the undesirables either GTFO, or eat bullets. The government has no right to force the law-abiding people of Arizona, for example, to share their property, infrastructure, and resources with scofflaw squatters, if they don’t want to do it.

      Shawna Forde, however, doesn’t appear to have been a wronged taxpayer; she was robbing the joint, essentially. Also, I don’t see any citations in the linked articles that say her victims were illegals.

      But frankly, if they were illegals, and they were peddling drugs as Forde claimed, I can’t pretend I’m really busted up about their murders.

      1. “zeroentitlement”

        their property, infrastructure,
        and resources.

        “zeroentitlement.”

        See, I wish I could be that funny.

        1. So you think the government should be allowed to force you to live and share your property taxes with people you don’t want living there?

          So you’d be totally OK with the government coming into your neighborhood and saying, “We’ve decided it’s cheaper to put a bunch of criminals in your neighborhood than to build prisons. And oh yeah, by the way, your taxes will be paying for these people to have more babies, get food stamps, go to local emergency rooms, and send their kids to school. And oh, yeah, this will all be while they continue to break the law. Mmmkay?”

          You enjoy that neighborhood. Don’t you live there now? In a lousy part of town where the illegals are living and peddling drugs? No? Gosh, I wonder why not, if it’s such a delightful part of the American dream?

      2. zeroentitlement, are you a communist?

        Because you sure as shit sound like one.

        1. I hate to use the Nazi’s and Jews out of fear that you’ll no doubt miss the point, so maybe I’ll just say; whoever I decide to invite over to my property regardless of where they come from is really none of your business.

          If you invite people who break federal law over to your property, and your property is in a community that I support with my taxes and work (i.e. your property is protected by the same police and emergency services that I pay for), I would gladly call the police. It’s what I’m paying the police to do, actually: make sure that people who break the law are punished or removed from society.

          Nobody invited these greasebags to come here and peddle drugs and collect Welfare and many other public benefits. They invited themselves.

          LOL, the Jews were law-abiding citizens who assimilated well into European society, learned and respected the languages and customs of their host nations, and neither demanded nor required handouts from their host nations. They were so fucking law-abiding that they capitulated to the Nazi invaders’ (yes, invaders’, not the community’s) demands to move into ghettoes, wear yellow stars, and ostracize themselves, even in defiance of their own self-interest.

          The day I see some greasy wetback consenting to wear a yellow star that identifies him as a violator of Federal law and a fraudulent collector of government benefits, I will suck your dick. If it can be found.

          1. So you’re saying that someone’s property is more of a shared communal thing, rather than something that an individual owns and has control over…okay

            That is just about the definition of a red. Sorry tuff gai, yer a commie.

          2. “I would gladly call the police. It’s what I’m paying the police to do, actually: make sure that people who break the law are punished or removed from society.”

            The law is the law! So you’d also support forcing escaped slaves back to the south (See Fugitive Slave Act), right? After all… the law is the law.

            “LOL, the Jews were law-abiding citizens who assimilated well into European society, learned and respected the languages and customs of their host nations, and neither demanded nor required handouts from their host nations.”

            So for you it’s as much a matter of culture and race (white power!) as it is their ‘legal status’. I understand now.

      3. “If the majority of taxpaying property owners of a community do not want a certain kind of people living among them, especially a kind of people who willfully break the law, I have no problem with the community telling them that the undesirables either GTFO, or eat bullets.”

        I hate to use the Nazi’s and Jews out of fear that you’ll no doubt miss the point, so maybe I’ll just say; whoever I decide to invite over to my property regardless of where they come from is really none of your business.

        “But frankly, if they were illegals, and they were peddling drugs as Forde claimed, I can’t pretend I’m really busted up about their murders.”

        You know what? I’ve heard the Mexican gangs are now using 9 yr. old girls to ‘peddle’ drugs. I think you might have a point.

    4. Is America not our property?

      Of course not.

      Do we not get a say into who comes here and who doesn’t?

      Of course you do. Anyone you want to employ or house you may employ or house, so long as they are not individually and specifically threats to the public.

  17. Due to the presence of the new HAPPY-HAPPY policy, which I assume extends to the Reason staff, I have absolutely no comment on this article.

    My momma and Reason say, if you can’t say something nice, don’t say nuttin’.

    1. It’s boilerplate. If they were really interested in fostering civility and keeping comments on-topic, I’d be banned immediately.

      1. Could it have anything to do with the issue of whether a certain JD may or may not have relations with woolies?

        1. It’s all about ME.

        2. Boilerplate is usually for the express purpose of legal CYA, so I assume that’s what is going on.

        3. Women get wooly….

          1. I thought they got weary?

            1. I feel bad for quoting something from Field of Dreams, but yes, that was the conclusion of that scene.

              1. Bull Durham, damn your hide!

                1. Prolib likes long, slow, deep, wet kisses that last for three days. My gooch is eternally grateful

                  1. I literally lol’d at this and at PL’s pointing out of my blunder.

                    1. I can’t abide confusion of Costner baseball movies.

                    2. With the exception of his baseball movies, I can’t abide Costner…

                    3. I believe I share this sentiment, though there might be a minor exception somewhere.

                    4. Tin Cup, bitches!!!!

                    5. I don’t think so.

                      I kind of liked No Way Out years ago. He was good in The Big Chill, too, as the suicide’s wrists.

      2. I’d be banned immediately.

        [Searches for murderous rage emoticon, just in case]

        1. Where you been, Honey Bunny? Has your career eaten your Reason time, or did the trolls finally wear you out?

          1. It was the trolls — whichever version of SukiTagliTofuSushiRatherOhioOrrin had been released last February.

            But I’m always here. Watching. Judging. Never-forgetting.

            1. Do you think they’ll delete highnumber’s running commentary in that thread? That would make me sad.

  18. I know what you’re saying, but their choice of victims is clearly tied to her political views.

    Or her expressed views were conditioned by what victims she chose and what accomplices she wanted to recruit.

    She seems to have been a semi-successful career criminal until this fuckup, and they’re usually smart about that sort of thing?not smart enough, if they make the news, but still.
    For a magazine called Drink!

  19. Is America not our property? Do we not get a say into who comes here and who doesn’t?

    Tribalist moron troll is tribalist moron.

  20. Boilerplate is usually for the express purpose of legal CYA

    “Do not drive or operate heavy machinery when taking this medication.”

    1. Driving or operating heavy machinery while commenting on H&R is probably a bad idea, too.

  21. I read that article about conservatism/libertarianism in science fiction that SugarFree linked to, and there’s a lot of mention of an author named John Ringo. Anyone have any thoughts about him?

    1. His book covers all look like concept art for St*rship Troopers VI. Also, Doc Holiday is his huckleberry. I haven’t managed to read any of his books. Which almost takes active avoidance on his part. If you do read them, let us know how they are.

    2. Fun, but not particularly earthshattering. Find it online for free and try some.

    3. Not a very good drummer and a lousy singing voice. Somehow managed to still be alive while the two with the talent are dead.

    4. I’ve never read anything by him, but then I’m not a huge fan of David Weber-esque mililtary SF.

      As for a book recommendation, I recent read Version 43 by Philip Palmer and enjoyed it immensely. It’s not a literary masterpiece, but it was hella fun to read. I’m reading his Red Claw next.

      1. Interesting that he was so popular over at PJM. I’m okay with some military S/F–Scalzi’s okay–but a little goes a long way, as I’ve already read Heinlein and Haldeman.

        I think next up is A Canticle for Leibowitz, which I’ve only read a few pages of (had to return it when I first tried to read it).

      2. I actually enjoy Weber but I find Ringo to be a big ole hunk of meh. I refuse to read any of their collaborations because of that.

    5. He pretty good. Stick with the Posleen War stuff.

  22. 99.9 percent of Minutemen will be molested by a Mexican sometime during their lives

    In my head, they are! Without passports!

  23. Shawna Forde, the head of the Minutemen American Defence group, is on trial accused of two charges of first degree murder[…]

    […]A history of Forde’s shady past from her old hometown of Everett, Washington, including being a suspect in the shooting of her ex-husband and perhaps a faked beating and rape claim on herself.

    Makes me think this woman used the so-called “Minuteman” label as a way to run a criminal enterprise under the shade.

    1. You’re right.

  24. Wow. I’m with you on borders but this was a crappy piece of reporting. The woman who committed the crime was asked to leave the border patrolling Minutemen because she was unstable and they realized she was trouble. Further, she has a rap sheet as long as her arm (assault, prostitution, theft). The Aryan Nation guy who did the killing is wanted for another murder. These are run-of-the-mill thieves and murderers who used a movement as cover for their crimes. Our dislike of that movement doesn’t absolve us of our responsibility to truth.

  25. Our dislike of that movement doesn’t absolve us of our responsibility to truth.

    New around here?

  26. She’s the white version of Omar Little

  27. I think next up is A Canticle for Leibowitz, which I’ve only read a few pages of (had to return it when I first tried to read it).

    Awesome book- git crackin’!

    1. I liked it when I started reading it. Should’ve bought a copy or checked it out again a while ago.

    2. Great book.

  28. Damn, I thought that this thread had legs. It hit 158 and sputtered out…bad thread, man.

  29. 160!

    I win fuckers, bow down to the new King of Egypt. Blam!

    I want you slaves to arrange those giant blocks into a tetrahedron. You will spend your lives doing this so that my cat has a place to sleep when he dies!

    Build! *whipcrack*

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  31. The popular war on immigrants

    Sure, every time one of those ever-so-special immigrants gets robbed it’s part of a “popular war” – “thomas sabo bracelets” makes more sense than Brian Doherty.

  32. Life imitates the Simpsons:

    “Either the duck suffers or the kid does, or none of you is getting nothing from Shauna. (Points to herself and looks at Bart.) I’m Shauna”

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