Egyptian Updates: A Blackout, a Briefing, a Biden

Following up on Brian's post from earlier today, reports now have it that the Egyptian authorities are attempting to cut off all Internet and SMS access in the country. As Evgeny Morozov notes, this isn't exactly a risk-free strategy for Cairo. Stay tuned.

Meanwhile, Jillian York has a very interesting post on how Egypt's protesters have been using the Net thus far.

Also, Joe Biden is an ass.

Comments

[Almanian]

You know who else tried to restrict citizens' access to information....

[Corduroy]

too soon

[Almanian]

The Middle East - vast, unrestrained unpleasantness. Kind of like Ohio, but without Cedar Point.

[sevo]

Or Cleveland.

[BakedPenguin]

There are plenty of "Mistakes on the (Roman) Lake."

[Timon19]

Hey, you motherfu...eh, you sorta have a point. It's the dead of winter.

[ali]

ap video of a man being shot by the police. 10 minutes after the video's surfacing, as of a few minutes ago, all internet communication in the country has been shut down.

http://video.ap.org/?f=None&pid=oT7qj_w ... _irYjJ2R8Z

and this is a video from suez. it is a war zone out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjmcdFho ... r_embedded

[ali]

oops, sorry for the incomplete links. here they are:

http://video.ap.org/?f=None&am....._irYjJ2R8Z

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

[sage]

Also, Joe Biden is an ass.

Butt you repeat yourself.

[Episiarch]

I see what you did there.

It wasn't funny, you thunderous clod.

[sage]

I was serious. And I got your "clod" swingin' right here.

[ali]

every freedom loving man and woman should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

[sage]

That video gave me the chills.

[ali]

every time i play it, it makes my eyes tear up. gotta love freedom.

here is egypt's own tiananmen square moment (~1:20)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

just beautiful.

[Bingo]

Fucking hell yes.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

When the young man said, "whether you are Christian, whether you are Muslim, whether you are atheist, we will have our goddamn rights!" I almost came in my pants.

[Rather]

lol

[Zeb]

What is with Youtube making you sign in to watch stuff now? I don't have time for that shit.

[ali]

khaled saed, the young man in whose honor these demonstrations are conducted (and catalised by the events in tunisia), was (allegedly) brutally killed by the police in alexandria. for more about him and a photo of him at the time of his death can be found here:

(warning: extremely graphic)

http://www.arabist.net/blog/2010/6/14/t ... -said.html

[ali]

oops, sorry again:

http://www.arabist.net/blog/20.....-said.html

[sage]

Can't open your link with Safari. Trying IE...nope.

[ali]

i had opened a while ago, but you're right. it wouldn't open now. the website itself seems to be running fine.

[Paul]

Yep, same for me. No video.

[ali]

this photo sings to me:

http://www.facebook.com/photo......3561373523

[Jennifer]

That photo is beautiful.

[Spiny Norman]

I wish I could read the sign.

[sage]

"I shaved my balls for this?"

[These Days]

Cogs of the state: I have had sex with all your mothers!

[Rather]

"this photo sings to me" Precisely true and beautifully simplistic
Ali, I posted on Egypt today. I think the return of Mohamed ElBaradei is a positive outcome.

[ali]

can you post a link?

[Rather]

http://rctlfy.wordpress.com/20.....-old-girl/

[Rather]

link

[Paul]

Looks like one of the political cartoons in that series didn't look positively on Obama, but I couldn't tell what it said.

[Spur]

It is a great picture - of course if it was from indymedia showing some black bloc'er holding a sign up saying 'eat the rich' people on here would be deriding the guy and saying he should be locked up /get a job...

[Chinny Chin Chin]

Yeah, it's a shame people here wouldn't recognize the perfect congruity between the photo and your hypothetical.

[tkwelge]

You see, Biden's comments fit the new, post-Loughner narrative. We're not supposed to violently oppose the government that threatens us with violence daily, we're supposed to share how oppression makes us "feel" and hug. The government will assure us that it feels our pain, and we'll just continue on getting fucked in the ass.

Didn't you hear? We need more "sanity" in the political debate.

Personally, I believe that violence against the government is barely ever rational and justified, but it is a necessary threat to those that would become to heavy handed with their power. I'm actually awestruck at the lack of violence aimed at the government (a handful of lone whacko's) when their are PLENTY of reasons to be pissed off. It's also amazing considering the sheer level of violence it aims at us constantly.

Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation.

[tkwelge]

their, there mistake

I post high and don't use preview, so sue me.

[cynical]

Contrariwise, while I believe that violence against government is usually counterproductive, it is often justified. Particularly versus the parts of government that wield the sword more directly.

[sage]

What could possibly go wrong with giving our president an internet kill switch?

[P B]

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cApitalist]

Damn straight.
So what prompted killing the net? National security? Cyber terrorism?
No. People got sick of the state's bullshit and made noise about it. You're deluding yourself if you think this power would be used differently in the US.

[CharlesWT]

Sandmonkey

[sage]

Good stuff, thanks.

[ali]

yes, good stuff there, charles. thank you!

[Fluffy]

"Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he's been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with ? with Israel. ? I would not refer to him as a dictator."

Ahem - Mr. Vice President.

Of the things you listed:

1. being a US ally

2. being "very responsible" to the "geopolitical interest of the region"

3. being helpful to "the Middle East peace process"

4. normalizing relations with Israel

- can you please point out for me which one has any bearing whatsoever on the question of whether or not Mubarak is a dictator, and explain exactly how it has any bearing?

[Tulpa]

He never said Mubarak wasn't a dictator.

[P B]

mmm, he kind of did

http://www.csmonitor.com/World.....d593d07c,0

[roystgnr]

Good point. He just said "I would not refer to him as a dictator", which doesn't necessarily mean "I think he's not a dictator"; it can instead mean "I'm a dissembling pansy and afraid to say what I think".

[Number 2]

You gotta love insightful journalism like this from the Christian Science Monitor: "Mr. Biden's comments are unlikely to be well-received by regime opponents"

REALLY?? I'd never have guessed!

[Jeffersonian]

I hope and pray that Egypt and Egyptians recover their liberty from this rotten regime, and I pray even more that something worse doesn't take its place.

[ali]

i really very much doubt that. egypt is no pakistan or afghanistan.

related:

http://voices.washingtonpost.c.....gypts.html

http://www.newsweek.com/2011/0.....enger.html

[Jeffersonian]

They still have the Muslim Brotherhood going strong there, no?

[Anonymous Coward]

Officially, the Muslim Brotherhood is banned in Egypt. Unofficially, its members hold 20% of the seats in the Egyptian Parliament as Independents.

[The Truth]

From what I understand, the modern Muslim Brotherhood != Al Qaeda, or the Iranian mullahs, it's more like...the religious right in this country, but a notch to the right of that. Anyway they don't advocate one party rule.

[Jeffersonian]

I hope you're right, but consider also that Hamas is a branch of the MB. Not good.

[The Truth]

Well, Tito and Stalin were both Communists, but one was considerably less brutal and evil than the other.

[The Truth]

Or an even better comparison--The French and Italian Communist Parties vs. the Soviet and Chinese ones.

[Ebeneezer Scrooge]

The French and Italian communist parties never got the level of control that the Soviet and Chinese communists did.

Not sure I'd believe the former were any better than the latter.

[The Nuanced Truth]

In France and Italy the Communist were checked by nationalist, not so in China, nor Russia. And Tito plenty sucked, though not Stalin sucked.

[sevo]

"Or an even better comparison--The French and Italian Communist Parties vs. the Soviet and Chinese ones."

Fail.
Neither the French nor the Italians ever held full power. False equivalence.

[db]

Talking to a friend who is an export on ME history and current politics, the MB has been caught off guard by this and are not at the core. Also they are not anywhere near AQ. Egypt has long been a hotbed of secular dissent in the Middle East, unlike places where AQ and Islamist parties hold sway.

[Mo]

That's mostly because they crush the secular alternatives. It's easy to get the West to support you when you say, "Support us or else the MB will take over." Mubarak may be a brutal thug, but he knows how to play the realpolitik game.

[Ebeneezer Scrooge]

This is the Middle East. Don't expect to see much good to happen.

Building something good from the midst of that mess is hard enough to begin with. But if something with any good to it actually does arise, you can just about bet that some western country will decide it has to be chopped down.

Vague recollection from history -- some Ali something guy came to power in Egypt in the late 1840's. Perhaps not the "perfect democratic ruler" by western standards (which are frequently not so realistic or rational in their own right). But this guy sure sounded a big cut above the average Middle East ruler, from my reading of the history books. Somebody who might have actually accomplished something good. Who knows what the M.E. map might look like today if he'd been left to his own devices.

Instead I recall France and England and a few others, getting together and taking this guy out. Because, after all, he was upsetting the "balance of power" thing they had going with the Ottomans.

Put me down as hating Euro-Rot Political philosophy.

[ali]

i believe you're talking of macedonian born, honorary egyptian ruler muhammad ali.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt

[Ebeneezer Scrooge]

Yes, he's the one. I couldn't guess what Egyptians today think of him, but I remember thinking it was sad when the French and British took him down. Seems Egypt might have been a much better place with him.

[Mo]

Muhammed Ali Pasha was the man. He was not afraid to give the Turks the finger and brought great reforms to Egypt.

[ali]

police shooting unarmed protesters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

[CharlesWT]

Staged?

See if you don't think this is staged. The shot was fired from very close to the cameraman, probably behind him. From the long "crack" of the shot, it didn't hit anything. The guy just falls down like somebody has cut his strings rather than being knocked down. No blood on the pavement, and the kicker for me, that one guy is able to pick him up and carry him off TOWARDS the direction that the shot came from. NOT!
Shooting in Egypt

[db]

"Knocked down?" You do know that's just Hollywood BS, right? Rifle bullets just go through you and fuck up your organs, mostly. The heavy jacket the guy is wearing is more than enough to contain his bleeding on the short time scale witnessed in the video.

And I have no idea what you mean by "the long crack of the shot" indicating it didn't hit anything. You obviously know very little about ballistics.

[CharlesWT]

The "crack" is the sonic boom from the bullet. If the bullet hits something shortly after leaving the barrel, the crack will be cut short if the bullet stops or goes sub-sonic.

[D'oh]

Get in a gunfight, or watch an actual tape/video/film of someone being shot instead of basing your "observations" on TV and movies.

p.s. I was going to say "You're an ass." But you may simply be ignorant, and that's fixable.

[db]

That's really just wrong. Shots fired in areas with lots of sound-reflective surfaces (like an urban street) will have long drawn out reports regardless of the bullet's flight time.

[Paul]

I take it you've never actually seen anyone get shot. They don't fly back like in Terminator, people tend to just drop like a ragdoll. And what forensic, surround sound evidence is there that the shot came from "behind" him. Next thing, we'll get a dissertation about how since Kennedy's head went "back and to the left" the shot must have come from in front of him.

[-]

This is a blog. Reality doesn't count.

[Knutsack]

Plus, he didn't have any dying words before closing his eyes with the camera focused on his serene face.

You, sir, are a jackwagon.

[zeroentitlement]

I've enjoyed Jillian's point about how we in the West arrogantly expect Egypt's revolutionaries to implode or scatter without our divinely-inspired, life-giving microblogging bullshit.

I'm pretty sure these kids will come up with some other way to keep networking and keep each other informed. All the government did, by killing Internet and SMS, was give them one more reason to think this old fossil and his regime needs to go.

[The Truth]

FTW! If anything this is going to piss people off even more.

[Jennifer]

As the streets of Egypt
erupt in civil war
Joe Biden proves he is
a goddamned craven whore.

[Joe Biden]

Barry and I thank you for your vote again Jennifer. Please use your voice to help us get the internet kill switch so America doesn't have to suffer the uncivil anarchy of Tunisia and Egypt.

[Anonymous Coward]

Joe Biden is proof positive that you don't have to be good-looking, smart, hard-working, or even possess common sense to make it in America.

Which makes me wonder just what the fuck it is I'm doing wrong.

[The Truth]

Yeah, at least you could say Bush and Quayle got by on their father's names, and Palin gets by on the boners she gives old white perverts.

Biden? I mean...nothing.

[Joe Biden]

I give you a boner, you know it's the Truth.

[Anonymous Coward]

Our boy Joe married above his station. Guess that's something he and Barry have in common.

[Tulpa]

You're not surrounded by Delawareans.

Put Biden in the midst of the state that gave us Fortran, Dave Weigal, and the Heimlich Maneuver and he looks like a Renaissance man.

[Ebeneezer Scrooge]

Wow.

I don't ever want to go to Delaware.

[Karl]

I'm with you except for...
A reason to go to Delaware

[db]

I can buy DFH beer in PA and never have to enter Delaware.

[Karl]

Yeah, I can get it in Arizona as well, but it's a nice pub, and they often have things you can't get outside of the Rehoboth pub. But if it would result in Biden and Weigel going away, I could forgo trips to Deleware.
-K

[Spazmo]

Fortran, Dave Weigal, and the Heimlich Maneuver

Worst Saturday night plans ever.

[hmm]

Or one hell of a party depending on how you combine them with alcohol.

[Heimlich]

It started more as a gesture, really.

[wylie]

the state that gave us Fortran

What's it called when the rest of the states get together and vote your state out of The Union?

As for going to Delaware.....they have a really neat screen door factory to visit.

[Zeb]

But if you want to form a corporation or offer easy credit to people, it's the place to be (or at least file your paperwork).

[I Heart Capitalisms]

I'd replace 'America' with 'politics'.

[cynical]

He was fortunate(?) to be born with a rare but aesthetically pleasing spiritual defect, making his soul a must-have collector's item for Hell's pneumismatists. Your soul is bog standard, practically a commodity.

[Rather]

Two reasons why
#1 Anonymous
#2 Coward

[The Truth]

Also, fuck the call for "no violence", I for one very much enjoyed seeing Ceausescu and his wife shot by revolutionaries. These aren't western politicians we're talking about. They're brutal thugs.

[Spazmo]

Yep. Screw this new era of civility. If politicos had to worry a bit more about being strung up from lampposts, our problems would vanish overnight.

[highnumber]

The regime has the big guns. The Egyptians are not going to overpower their government. Nonviolence is a far more practical strategy.

[Bingo]

Yo ali, are you iih (or similar?) from sevaral years back?

[ali]

him! 🙂

[Bingo]

Hah! Glad to see you're still around! I hope things are well. We are missing you in the comments, particularly debates between you and the foreign policy hawks (who I think have become less anti-Islam as of late). Your viewpoint of the Islamic world is definitely missed! Plus, it's nice to see another hard-core libertarian among the trolls these days 🙂

[ali]

glad to be back. i hope it was under better circumstances (or may be in a few days, it will be under the best circumstances, after we see this regime fucking gone). just been to busy with life. i do stop by to read from time to time. might have posted once or twice in the last two years. the foreign policy hawks just turned me off.

[G Mc]

A more free Egypt is not necessarily a good thing for the people of the United States or the world. There is no black and white here.

[John]

Easy for you to say. Do you think the Egytpians should live in oppression for our benefit? Fuck that. They are entitled to live in a free country just like everyone else. I hope they take it and make it free. We are big kids. We can deal with the consiquences.

[Jennifer]

This might be the first time I've ever said this: "I am in complete agreement with John, here."

[Rather]

So am I Jennifer; do you feel dirty too?;-)

[Tman]

You would be surprised how little you disagree, actually...

[Rather]

?

[G Mc]

Do you believe nation states should act in their own self interest? Do you believe the overthrow of an oppressive regime is of such value as an end that the means should not be taken into account? Is it likely that Egyptians will be "better off" if the government is toppled?

Instability is troubling because it is unpredictable. Unpredictability is bad for most economic and political actors. I would prefer to see a gradual transition of power from the government to the people.

[sevo]

"I would prefer to see a gradual transition of power from the government to the people."

I would, too, but when you're dealing with a tin-pot dictator, it may not be possible.

[G Mc]

The man is 80 years old. I would say the best case scenario would be the riots give the government serious pause once the time for a transition of power arrives (i.e. his death). In the event of a true revolution, I fear the popularity of the extremist Islamists and the power of the Egyptian military machine (funded in large part by American dollars) would lead to terrible bloodshed and a Middle East even less easy to deal with on a foreign policy level.

[Bingo]

Right, because a population yearning for freedom should be oppressed so that it can't disrupt a region already full of oppression and abuse of basic human rights.

[G Mc]

If you value "non-oppression" and the recognition of basic human rights, thats one thing. But "freedom" for a people isn't always so conducive for the realization of those aforementioned values. Were the Russian people better off for earning their "freedom" in 1917?

[cynical]

Were they that much worse off? Russian society was pretty cruel before the Communists too.

[alan]

That was the standard line we were taught in our high schools, whatever else we think of the Soviets at least they were an improvement over the Tsars. However, it is a manufactured lie that is now throughly debunked, a cause my recently dearly departed professor Dale McKenzie contributed. From the reforms that freed the serfs in the mid nineteenth century to just before WW1, the standard of living for the Russian people rose dramatically in that time, and, yes, the war and the communist were a severe set back.

[W. L. Garrison]

Gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice.

[G Mc]

I don't know. The Commonwealth that was the British Empire has largely turned out ok. Ok defined as stable, relatively prosperous, and democratic.

[Bingo]

Your collectivist vocabulary testifies to your collectivist ideals.

Yes, let the Egyptians live in tyrrany in order to make our foreign policy more predictable. Eat shit.

[G Mc]

And your ideology blinds your reason. How far are you willing to take that idea? If we "should" passively suffer harm so that foreign peoples should be more free, why shouldn't we actively make foreign peoples more free?

[Paul]

You keep suggesting that from regime change in Egypt, we will suffer some harm. What is this harm the U.S. will suffer. Be specific. Or are you just concerned that Egypt will become an unstable country in the Middle East. Lord knows we can't have that.

[G Mc]

A new regime may be less conducive to US interests in Egypt and the region. It may be a less helpful partner in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, it may be less helpful in brokering deals with the Syrians, the Iranians, etc. It may actively work against our interest in the region (see Iran). It may be very protectionist and less open to trade with the US or free trade generally. It could be dominated by interest groups in Egypt that are extremely hostile to the United States - i.e. Islamic extremists.

In regards to the actual people of Egypt, the revolution could just lead to massive bloodshed and more per capita suffering than was felt under the prior regime.

Its not necessarily a good thing.

[Paul]

G Mc, I'm smellin' a lotta 'if' comin' off of your message.

May, may, may, may, may. Or, perhaps a free Egypt may be MORE conducive to US interests in Egypt and the region.

[Jennifer]

If any country's freedom is detrimental to US interests, then fuck US interests. Freedom is the very ideal on which this country was supposed to be founded, and if the country betrays that ideal it is no longer worth defending.

[Polynikes]

If any country's freedom is detrimental to US interests, then fuck US interests. Freedom is the very ideal on which this country was supposed to be founded, and if the country betrays that ideal it is no longer worth defending.

I love it when women talk libertarian. Well put!

[Jill]

+1 thumbs up.

[Xenocles]

"A new regime may be less conducive to US interests in Egypt and the region."

Maybe. But our government doesn't have the right to keep its shills in office in other countries. Actually, the more it backs them, the worse the blowback will be following the inevitable revolutions that topple them.

[Mo]

Don't you think they'll be dominated by forces hostile to the U.S. because of our support of corrupt, tinpot dictators. Who looks at our experience with the Shah of Iran and thinks, "Hey that was a good idea, let's do it again."

[Bingo]

Your fallacy is that if US foreign policy suffers then individual US citizens suffer harm. Last I checked, I haven't been a victim of any attack.

I think that foreign people (or, rather, persons) should do as they want without government interference. I am literally an alien talking to you in an alien language right now, but people (or persons) can live their lives without a government telling them what to do. Most people tolerate the government, in that it tells them what they already want to do, with exceptions. I'm pretty sure this is the goal of a democratic government or a representational democracy. The Egyptians are protesting against a government that is going far and beyond the whims of the common individual.

Maybe I'm wrong, but by your wording of the original post, you want groups of individuals to suffer a government that doesn't represent their interests in the name of stability (which is not automatically a desirable thing).

[G Mc]

You're right, stability is not "automatically" a good thing. My argument is that there are interests that weigh against these violent protests being universally characterized as "good," which was the overwhelming opinion I saw expressed here. And for the Egyptian people it may very well be in their interest to overthrow the government. That does not mean its harmful to American citizens.

[Bingo]

Well, lets pretend you are in a game and you are in a bad position. You can throw the dice but the chances are small for victory. If you don't throw the dice, you will continue on in a bad position. If you do throw the dice, hell, chances are you will still be in a bad position, BUT there is a small chance you will come out on top.

That's what we're rooting for, I think. When you deal with so much stagnation of terrible things that chance, that unexpected luck to actually change something, it's worth rooting for (imho).

[John]

I think nation states and the people who live in them have a right to self determination. It is the Egyptian's business what kind of government they have. If they want to throw their's out, that is their business. We have no business proping up opressive governments at other people's expense because we think that it is in our best interest.

Further, instability can be good in the long term. The same bullshit argument about stability was made during the cold war. If we had followed it, Eastern Europe would still be enslaved under communism. Oppressive horrible governments are a lot worse for the world and business than the instability caused by throwing them out.

[G Mc]

Isn't the collapse of the Soviet Union actually an example of why gradualism should be preferred over immediate and violent confrontation?

[John]

There wasn't anything gradual about it. IN 1988 no one dreamed communism was going to collapse. Two years later it was gone. It was the most stunning thing that has happened in my lifetime. And there were lots of people who thought it was going to be a bad thing. People at the time said that we shouldn't actively support disidents because that would cause instability and highten tensions and do no good. And that the Soviet Union would last forever. All of that is bunk

[G Mc]

Well, I think many historians would argue that the decay in power and legitimacy of the Soviet central government was years in the making. Just because a regime collapse wasn't foreseeable in the eyes of a layman doesn't mean it wasn't the product of a gradual process.

[John]

It is only forseable now in retrospect. And layman eyes my ass. IT was the experts who got it wrong. None of the so called experts predicted it would collapse. The entire foreign policy and academic establishment was caught completely by surprise by the collapse of communism.

[Bingo]

John has it right

[sr7]

John is absolutely right here. I am aware of only two individuals who got it right where public statements can be pointed to and that is Reagan and Rothbard. Samuelson textbooks, the most establishmentarian of establishmentarian authoritative holy writ, were claiming the Soviet Union was more prosperous than us, and central planning was shown to be more efficient than the free market. How terribly and abysmally wrong do you have to be before you take up painting and leave political economy to your betters in embarrassment if you are a Nobel winning establishmentarian economist?

[Mises and Trotsky]

Both of us called it, coincidentally enough.

[Cytotoxic]

The Egyptian people have that right so long as they do not collude with our enemies or the enemies of Israel. I hope for the best but I am cautious.

[affenkopf]

Why should Americans care if Egypt colludes with the enemies of Israel?

[Cytotoxic]

Israel is America's ally. If they hate Israel, it follows that they will hate the West.

[Rather]

Gradual? I'd say over forty years of Emergency Law is more than "gradual"

[G Mc]

Also, why is one entitled to a "free country?" Natural rights? I don't know if I even agree with that.

[sevo]

"Also, why is one entitled to a "free country?" Natural rights? I don't know if I even agree with that."

WHAAT?
Go away!

[sevo]

BTW, your "agreement" is worth squat.

[G Mc]

I mean, I never said it wasn't. I suppose its worth as much as yours - unless one man's thoughts are better than another's.

[Bingo]

Look, there's a lot of leather clad ladies with whips well practiced in physical, emotional, and sexual domination. Leave us out of your stupid fantasies and go find some authority figure that will spank you and restrain you.

[ali]

i love you bingo!

[sr7]

He doesn't agree with natural rights but he does believe his galley chains could stand a new coat of shine.

[Amakudari]

Also, why is one entitled to a "free country?" Natural rights? I don't know if I even agree with that.

The fuck?

Why should we care about what you think if you don't believe people have rights?

[Spoonman.]

Fuck you.

[Paul]

A more free Egypt is not necessarily a good thing for the people of the United States or the world. There is no black and white here.

Explain. Why can't the United States be friendly with a new, more open government. This is just handwringing over the loss of the status quo.

[G Mc]

"necessarily"

[ali]

do you think egyptians living under a police state give a fuck what you think? they're getting their freedom one way or the other. just sayin'.

[G Mc]

Freedom does not follow logically from revolution.

[ali]

no, but it is more likely to come about when you revolt against oppression. if you sit and watch, you are guaranteed that it will not follow.

[Bingo]

Oppression does logically follow from oppression. A revolution is a chance, and it's worth it.

[D'oh]

Freedom does may not follow logically from revolution, but it sure as hell does not follow logically from oppression!

Like Bingo said earlier:

Bingo|1.28.11 @ 12:44AM|#

Well, lets pretend you are in a game and you are in a bad position. You can throw the dice but the chances are small for victory. If you don't throw the dice, you will continue on in a bad position. If you do throw the dice, hell, chances are you will still be in a bad position, BUT there is a small chance you will come out on top.

[John]

When Mubarach sent his family to London, you knew the shit was about to hit the fan. Egypt is not Pakistan or Afghanistan as someone said above. These corrupt awful regimes cannot last forever. The world is changing. People expect more and more connected. I am sorry to see the carnage. But I am happy to see things finally changing. The Egyptians deserve better than what they have gotten.

[Ebeneezer Scrooge]

These corrupt awful regimes cannot last forever.

No. But it's entirely possible for them to come one right after another.

I hope not. But in the Middle East it's by far the greater probability.

[Barack Obama]

If Egypt only had high speed rail, then everything would have been swell.

[Joe Biden]

Solar Minarets Subsidies.

[sevo]

"If Egypt only had high speed rail, then everything would have been swell."
And Biden as, well, sub-dictator.

[CatoTheElder]

Biden is already vice president to Mubarrak's uberfuhrer.

Claire Berlinski puts it very well:

"The fact that we [the USG] are supporting the Mubarak regime may not be immediately obvious to most Americans, but it is the central fact about America to every Egyptian alive--to 83 million people in the heart of the Middle East...We are not powerless to influence the outcome of these events. Our Secretary of State could get on the phone and say, 'Touch one more hair on the head of one more protester and we pull the plug.'

Or she could get on the phone and say, 'Crush it. We'll help. Do what needs to be done. Egypt isn't ready. Remember Iran.'"

And the bozo vice president has just announced which side the Obama Administration favors. This time he's not just foolish and embarrassing; Biden is vile and dangerous.

[Cecil]

^^THIS^^ The US should be supporting the Egyptian people in their quest for freedom, or at least not expressing support for the oppressors.

[Paul]

I'm trying to hit some random egyptian websites, all get 404 or page not found. Even official Egyptian websites such as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and what not.

[G Mc]

For the record, though I would prefer to see a gradual transition of power, I do personally hope that they can topple this stagnant and oppressive regime. I'm just skeptical that things will work out for the best. They so rarely do, especially in that part of the world.

[John]

You might as well say you support mickey mouse and unicorns. There is almost never a gradual transition out of power for such regimes. People guilty of these kinds of crimes can't afford to go away easy.

[Thomas Jefferson, 1776]

For the record, though I would prefer to see a gradual transition of power, I do personally hope that they can topple this stagnant and oppressive regime. I'm just skeptical that things will work out for the best. They so rarely do, especially in that part of the world.

[SIV]

If Mubarek and his cronies hang from light posts it's a win no matter what happens next. Consider it an object lesson for "rulers" everywhere.

sic semper tyrannis

[Rather]

SIV, I thought you were going to add : "in their underwear"

[Amakudari]

For the record, though I would prefer to see a gradual transition of power, I do personally hope that they can topple this stagnant and oppressive regime.

But if they don't, that's cool.

[Spazmo]

Hey man, whatever's their bag. Crazy Egpytian dudes

[John]

If we don't support people getting rid of these regimes, the Islamists will. Jackasses like Biden do nothing but make the Islamists more attractive and popular by making them the only people who are willing to stand up to these regimes. Fuck off Joe you fucking buffoon.

[affenkopf]

Biden's echoing the Israeli position.

[John]

So?

[Episiarch]

Hey gaiz, what's goin' on...oh.

[Bingo]

all the world is changing with the exception of the good ol' US of A.

[Mike Flores]

I wonder how many people realize the first rebellion for a free market has just taken place?
http://www.charlotteobserver.c.....wants.html

[chony]

He should have paid his tax. civilization is the best bargain your money can buy.

[Amakudari]

His relatives said he was harassed by municipal officials for not having a license to sell the vegetables. When he didn't pay bribes, town authorities broke up his cart and stopped him from selling his wares.

Shocking. Good thing we don't have anything like this in America. (warning: full retard)

[sr7]

well, good night and best wishes to the people of Egypt.

[Tman]

It's funny because today at work my liberal co-worker was ragging on Palin as usual and I countered with "Dude, Biden makes Quayle look like Churchill, enough with the Palin."

Then Joe sends one out of the park, well done.

"Hey, Mubarak's not a dictator"

Joementum!

[-]

What kind of "revolution" is this, and where is it headed? "Revolutions" do not necessarily turn out well, as any serious student of history knows.

"A revolution is the climax of a long philosophical development and expresses a nation's profound discontent; a Putsch is a minority's seizure of power. The goal of a revolution is to overthrow tyranny; the goal of a Putsch is to establish it.

Tyranny is any political system (whether absolute monarchy or fascism or communism) that does not recognize individual rights (which necessarily include property rights). The overthrow of a political system by force is justified only when it is directed against tyranny: it is an act of self-defense against those who rule by force. For example, the American Revolution. The resort to force, not in defense, but in violation, of individual rights, can have no moral justification; it is not a revolution, but gang warfare."
-Ayn Rand

[CatoTheElder]

Egypt 2011 parallels Poland in 1980-1981. General Hosni Mubarak has the role of General Wojciech Jaruzelski.

I don't know who will take the role of Lech Walesa but, unfortunately, Biden has made clear that the US has taken the role of the USSR.

[CatoTheElder]

And, get this gem from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, "I really consider President and Mrs. Mubarak to be friends of my family."

[Spazmo]

The ruling classes of different countries always have more in common with each other than with their own people.

[Anonymouse]

Latest scuttlebutt from US embassy:
No call for morning prayers.
Police deployed in strategic locations and expect big demonstations after mid-day prayers.
Embassy Cairo confirmed mobile voice and data services also are not functioning, but landlines are not affected.

[Juice]

I like the US admin's policy on this:

State Dep't says democracy is OK for Tunisia but not Egypt because of Israel

and

Obama Administration Expresses Support For Mubarak As Protester Shot Dead In Egypt

(sorry for the prisonplanet link. Just thought it was a good headline that sums it up perfectly.)

[NotSure]

This could go either way, the Soviet did collapse, but China not only crushed the student uprising, today a young Chinese student will see their protesting predecessors as the real villains.

Mubarak is a terrible leader, however it is hard to see what will follow is better, either an Islamic or a socialist uprising will not lead Egypt to prosperity.

[ed hardy]

Forty years ago, Don Ed Hardy blew off a Yale fine-art fellowship to pursue the rogue art of tattoo, a timeless and often taboo tradition that captivated him as a boy in the Orange County beach town of Corona del Mar.

[ed hardy]

good article

[melody]

http://www.collectcheapdvd.com.