L.A. Getting Ready for More Big Sports Welfare

L.A. downtown development giant AEG is trying to shove through a plan to build a new pro football stadium in L.A. in the next couple of months. Over at my California news and politics blog "City of Angles" experts chime in about why the city should think twice before bending over backward with city money to make it happen, with clips and quotes and links a-plenty.

Here at Hit and Run previously, Damon Root has assembled info on why cities generally regret such sweetheart stadium deals, and Tim Cavanaugh previously critiqued both this specific stadium plan and other government funded riduculousness in California.

And Reason.tv on stadium dreams and city regrets:

Comments

[Pro Libertate]

Make sure it's snow-proof!

[Mike M.]

The Los Angeles Viqueens kind of has a nice ring to it...

[Pope Jimbo]

I'm still half convinced that the collapse was an inside job. Our owner Ziggy has been holding his breath for the last year or so demanding we build him a new stadium with no luck so far.

I think he saw an opportunity to a) prove that he needs a new stadium and b) not have to watch another Vikes game this year. Talk about win-wins.

[Old Mexican]

In the "It's not profligacy when WE do it" department:

L.A. downtown development giant AEG is trying to shove through a plan to build a new pro football stadium in L.A. in the next couple of months.

But, you see, it will create lots-an'-lotsa jobs!!!

[shrike]

When you lose two NFL franchises to St. Louis and Oakland its time to give it up.

[Pro Libertate]

Maybe we need a constitutional amendment to that effect.

That goes for the friggin' Washington (DC) baseball team, too.

[Pro Libertate]

Before anyone says it, (1) I'm kidding, and (2) it ain't very private if I'm funding the nonsense.

[Aaron Bonn]

This despite the fact that we already have not one, but two, of the most iconic stadiums in the country - the Coliseum and the Rose Bowl. If we must build a third - probably entirely unremarkable - stadium in order to get an NFL team, then I'm with you, its time to give up.

Fortunately, unlike Oklahoma City, we do have a Lingerie Football team. Screw the NFL - lets make the LA Temptation our home team.

[BakedPenguin]

The Coliseum and the Rose Bowl don't have 116 massive luxury boxes the owner can rent out @ $452,750 a year.

[R C Dean]

why the city should think twice before bending over backward with city money to make it happen

I think there's an extra word in there.

[Clich? Bandit]

Not only that but Brain seems to be effected by the same overspending irresponsible behavior as those in CA government...throwing extra consonants with abandon.

Damon Root has assembled info on why cityies

[Montani Semper Liberi]

I don't think the NFL will have a team in LA for one simple reason. If they put a team there, where will the league threaten to move teams in cities that refuse to dole out millions in corporate welfare to fund new stadiums?

[Pro Libertate]

London?

[Ragin Cajun]

New London?

[Jim]

North Haverbrook?

[Steven Smith]

Is the libertarian argument against public stadium development purely an economic one, like the argument against building mass transit systems?

[Clich? Bandit]

in an attempt to add value to the discussion:

The answer is no. Mostly it is an economic argument but often times these projects use eminent domain, coercive tactics, prop up rent seekers, and reward cronies. All of which are not necessarily "economic" in nature. BUT if you believe that rights are inherent and equal then there is truly, at its core, no difference between an economic one and a social one. (not to mention any right to property is inherently and economic arguing point)

GOOD BYE JOSH! Hello an even crappier Broncos!

[Old Mexican]

Re: Steven Smith,

Is the libertarian argument against public stadium development purely an economic one, like the argument against building mass transit systems?

The economic argument is actually the same as the moral argument: STEALING leaves the victim worse off. Building stadiums with "public" (i.e. stolen at bayonet point) money always leave the victims (what you would call with a sick sense of humor "taxpayers") worse off, whether they go to the games or not.

If you mean a "FINANCIAL" argument, then NO, libertarians do not make those arguments, even though they would be valid as well - public stadiums ARE a waste of money.

[Geotpf]

The argument here is that the government should not be subsidizing profitable, for-profit businesses, especially considering how huge the typical subsidy is.

Now, in any case, is there a direct government subsidy to the AEG project? I'm not sure there is.

[heller]

STEVE SMITH NO UNDERSTAND MORAL ARGUMENTS. ONLY UNDERSTAND THINGS IN TERM OF HOW MUCH RAPE STEVE SMITH WILL GET.

[Jeffersonian]

If there's another argument to be made, I'd like to hear it.

[Episiarch]

STEVE INTERESTED IN ARGUMENT FOR RAPE AND EAT OF HIKERS! CAN LIBURTARDIANS PROVIDE STEVE WITH MORAL BASIS FOR ASSAULT AND MURDER? MAYBE FOR EPISODES OF TWO AND HALF MEN? STEVE THINK CHARLIE SO FUNNY!

[In Time Of War]

If the NFL can't pay its own way, it needs to die and be forgotten.

[AnthonyD.]

speaking for all Clevelanders, I would like to request that Los Angeles takes our team.

[Warty]

Fuck you, dickbreath. It sucked enough when the real Browns were stolen.

[Tex Lovera]

But, but, but... I thought the Browns' "history" was specifically left behind by the Ravens.

Which probably explains why Cleveland still sucks...

[Warty]

The short version of the story is that Art Pigfucking Modell's team was contractually obliged to play in Cleveland until 1999. The city agreed to drop its lawsuit and release him from the contract in exchange for him giving up Cleveland Browns, Inc. and getting a new expansion team. So, from a legal perspective, the Browns never left. That's bullshit, of course.

But it's certainly not the case that Modell left the name behind out of charity; he had planned to own the Baltimore Browns. Fuck him.

[AnthonyD.]

we still got Great Lakes Brewing Company Christmas Ale, no one can take that from us.

[BakedPenguin]

You still have the symphony. Don't forget the symphony.

[Nephilium]

And Thirsty Dog's 12 Dogs of Christmas.

[Whiskey Muscles]

And we had Maggot Brain on WMMS every Friday at 1 am.

[Episiarch]

When your team leaves for fucking Baltimore*, you are truly pathetic. How's that feel, bitch?

* I have lived in Bal'mor. It is horrible.

[Warty]

If you've actually lived in Baltimore, then the joke's on you, cockholster. Every joke is on you.

[Episiarch]

Johns Hopkins is located in Baltimore, you constipated scumfuck. Unlike you and the rest of your inbred white trash family, I didn't go to a state school and get drunk while watching the home team get slaughtered and then take some fat sorority hog home to ride until we both passed out, leading to a coyote morning.

I got baked and learned how to fake giving a shit about my major while banging dirty stoner chicks and completely defying my own standards. So there.

[Episiarch]

Johns Hopkins is located in Baltimore, you constipated scumfuck. Unlike you and the rest of your inbred white trash family, I didn't go to a state school and get drunk while watching the home team get slaughtered and then take some fat sorority hog home to ride until we both passed out, leading to a coyote morning.

I got baked and learned how to fake giving a shit about my major while banging dirty stoner chicks and completely defying my own standards. So there.

[BakedPenguin]

The Browns just needed dipshit McDaniels to coach the Broncos for a couple more years, and make a few more trades. He gave away a top ten RB for a third/fourth string QB and draft picks. He would have started, then benched, Tim Tebow next year. Instead of then starting Orton again, he probably would have traded (a now-healthy) Dumervil and a couple more draft picks for Colt McCoy.

Cleveland really lost out when McDaniels got canned.

[Warty]

Don't feel too bad, dude. I hear Brady Quinn is one sexy lady.

[AnthonyD.]

I think it sucks more now. Did you watch that game yesterday?

[Warty]

Till I fell asleep. Fucking worthless fake Browns.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

Speaking for Steelers fans, please stay.

[Tex Lovera]

They already took the Rams off your hands before; you'll need to find another sucker...

[Warty]

Trivia: the Rams were the current NFL champs when they moved to LA. They moved because they would be unable to compete in popularity with the Ohio hero Paul Brown's new team.

[P Brooks]

Is the libertarian argument against public stadium development purely an economic one, like the argument against building mass transit systems?

Ooh, clever. You've run rings around us, logically.

[dbcooper]

$600 MILLION FOR WHAT?

An entertaining account of the NFL's history in LA.

[ChrisH]

Can they build it on pontoons in Santa Monica bay, so it's easier to tow to the next set of suckers?

[TomD]

I've always thought it was pretty cool that there's no NFL in Los Angeles. (OK, not "always," but for however long it's been now.)

L.A. is the center of glitz, bombast and shiny things -- yet it has contentedly lived without the most bombastic, over-the-top sport created by humans. Like it has no use for it. That's pretty cool.

My brain is urging me to go on a big anti-football rant right here, but I'll resist...

[Geotpf]

I've always looked at it this way: Most cities feel the need to throw money at an NFL team to prove they are a real city. Los Angeles is freaking Los Angeles, they don't need a football team to prove they are manly enough or whatever.

The fact that NFL doesn't have a NFL team proves the whole thing is bribe-based. LA is the second biggest market in the country. In a pure free market, there would inevitabily be a team there. The fact that LA won't pay the toll proves the fact that there the toll exists.

[DanD]

Well said. I'm still irritated that my fellow Nashvillians eagerly shelled out so much cash to that weasel Bud Adams so he would bring the Oilers here. We got royally screwed on the stadium lease, which has resulted in the stadium hosting very few events besides Titans games even though it's a lovely venue for high-profile occasions.

[CavMedic]

Except for the giant junkyard right behind it.

[SugarFree]

There needs to be a destination for The California Supertrain!

[Jeffersonian]

Perfect. Run that bitch down the 50 yard line.

[Ragin Cajun]

Sounds like the plot of a new Michael Bay movie.

[Episiarch]

DON'T GIVE HIM ANY IDEAS.

[tgs]

hopefully they drop it next to staples and plow over that shithole garment district

[Alan]

Yes, let's tear down dozens of businesses that actually employ poor people trying to make a living so that billionaires can have a few days a year watching pituitary cases carry an egg.

[R C Dean]

Is the libertarian argument against public stadium development purely an economic one, like the argument against building mass transit systems?

(1) The moral argument: Public funds should not be extracted from taxpayers to build facilities for private organizations.

(2) The economic argument: The immoral use of public funds in this way cannot even be justified on economic grounds, as the ROI to the public is negative.