Immigration

The American Muslim Success Story

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One thing that seems to be overlooked in this Manhattan mosque/activity center scuffle and the broader debate over integration and assimilation is just how well Muslim immigrants have done in the U.S. We don't have the Muslim ghettos, separatist movements, rioting, and the tense cultural clashes Europe has. There have been some arrests of alleged home-grown Islamic terrorists in America, but there are going to be extremist outliers in any ethnic, religious, or ideological group of 3 million people (the estimated number number of Muslims in the U.S.).

In contrast to many of the minority Muslim populations in Europe, American Muslims embrace modernity, are better educated, and earn more money than their non-Muslim fellow citizens. A 2007 Pew poll suggests American Muslims are also doing just fine when it comes to assimilating and viewing themselves as part of America. According to the poll, just 5 percent of American Muslims express any level of support for Al Qaeda, and strong majorities condemn suicide attacks for any reason (80+ percent), and have a generally positive image of America and its promise for Muslims.

According to the poll, the only subset of American Muslims where support for Al Qaeda and suicide attacks gets unccomfortably high is among native-born African-American converts, many of whom converted in prison. To the extent that this particular subset of American Muslims is more prone to radicalism and less optimistic about America, it has nothing to do with immigration/assimilation problems, and seems more likely to stem from lingering hostility about race. That is, it's an American problem, not a Muslim problem.

I'm not an immigration expert, so I'm not going to pretend I know everything that factored into it, but it's worth repeating that the story of Muslim immigrants in America over the last two generations is unquestionably a success story. There's the temptation to caution that all of the demagoguery and marginalization of Muslims over the Cordoba Center threatens that success, and could shake loose more potent factions of European-style Muslim radicalism in America. But the Pew poll suggests the overwhelming majority of American Muslims held to their sense of place in U.S. society even after September 11 and its immediate aftermath. It's worth condemning the "Ground Zero Mosque" demagoguery for the naked pandering to fear that it is. But the good news is that Muslim Americans appear to be confident enough with their position here that the escalating hysterics of Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, & Co. aren't likely to budge their general optimism about America.

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344 responses to “The American Muslim Success Story

  1. Just an aside, but did you know that non-Muslims are barred from entering the cities of Mecca and Medina ? not merely barred from building synagogues or churches, but barred, period, because their infidel feet are deemed unfit to touch the ground. This is not an al-Qaeda principle. Nor is it an “Islamist” principle. It is Islam, pure and simple.

    “Truly the pagans are unclean,” instructs the Koran’s Sura 9:28, “so let them not . . . approach the Sacred Mosque.” This injunction ? and there are plenty of similar ones in Islam’s scriptures ? is enforced vigorously not by jihadist terrorists but by the Saudi government. And it is enforced not because of some eccentric sense of Saudi nationalism. The only law of Saudi Arabia is sharia, the law of Islam.

    1. Of course we know this. Everyone who knows anything about Islam knows this. Do you have a point that has something to do with the US, or do you just want to obliquely say that Muslims aren’t fit to live here?

      1. Just an aside.

        1. Yeah, JUST an aside.

          Disingenuous much?

          1. I think what James is timidly suggesting is that we should look to how Islam behaves on its home turf, not how it behaves in a country where it’s a very small minority. The exercise is instructive.

            1. Instructive in what? That the Saudi government takes its role as Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques (or whatever the fuck they term themselves) VERY, VERY seriously in a Wahhabist context?

              1. No. Instructive in the mindset of Arab Muslims, you know, the ones who populate the middle east and some parts of the western world as well. Not saying they are all terrorists, but they are Muslims and they do embrace Sharia.

                1. Have you asked non-Saudi Arabs what they think of the Saudi state doing what they’re doing?

                  1. Yes, I have. Have you?

      2. I think he’s saying that if there’s an acceptance problem, it’s not on the side of the non-Muslim.

        1. Not that it’s even a problem. I guess around here “Compare and Contrast” is a bad thing.

          1. Not really, we know the US is a better place than Saudi Arabia. I’d like to keep it that way. Being shitty is not justified because you can point to something shittier.

            1. Can’t we be shitty just for the fun of it?

              1. Being shitty for shits and gigs?

              2. The US can and is being shitty. Torture is shitty.

            2. “Being shitty is not justified because you can point to something shittier.”

              You know, my 7 and 10-year-old kids do the exact same thing — Point out how much worse the other one is to excuse their own poor actions.

              Which suggests to me that those who take James’ position to its logical conclusion are no more emotionally balanced than a 7-year-old.

              1. What James is saying is that whenever Muslims reach a critical mass in a specific geographic area, freedom, liberty and all that other good stuff we love about America goes right out the window, and non-Muslims become second-class citizens who are not allowed to build their houses of worship ANYWHERE!!! Sorry, didn’t mean to shout.

                1. Patch-inator said: What James is saying is that whenever Muslims reach a critical mass in a specific geographic area, freedom, liberty and all that other good stuff we love about America goes right out the window…

                  If that’s what James is saying, James is wrong. There are plenty of non-Saudi Muslim majority countries where freedom and liberty are not doing so bad, and that tolerate religious pluralism, Indonesia, to name just one.

                  1. Take a look at Lebanon the next time you whip out the ‘tolerate religious pluralism’ argument. As for Indonesia, pull up the census data from fifty years ago, compare populations of religious groups to today and then I’ll take you seriously. Suicide by ignorance is as fatal as any other kind.

            3. Are the Saudis just enforcing their own peculiar interpretation of Islam, or do Muslims in general support that prohibition?

              1. I think it is mostly an Arab Muslim thing, but certainly other Muslims embrace it, and terrorism, as well.

            4. I agree with Richard.

        2. I doubt he’s saying anything that coherent, but if he were, I would respond that yes, Saudi Arabia has an acceptance problem…and we in the US should not emulate Saudi Arabia. That I even have to spell that out is a travesty, but such are the times.

          1. OK, I now see that two others said basically the same thing before me. Good work, guys!

          2. So do you think the acceptance problem Saudi Arabia has might show up here should, say, Akron become 60% Saudi?

            1. Odd that you’d pick Akron.

              1. No one would pick Akron.

                1. I took a shit in Akron once.

                2. Probably true, Warty.

                3. I lived in Ohio for a few years in Dayton, where the city motto is “Thank God for Akron”… for making Dayton look better by comparison.

                  1. Okay, not that funny, but then again there’s nothing funny about Ohio.

                  2. Wow. I didn’t realize Daytonites were so deluded. Is there anything left in that city now that NCR is gone (aside from The Thing That Will Never Go Away, WPAFB)?

              2. Especially since Akron is one city that would probably be improved by a string suicide bombings.

                  1. No offense intended man! You could probably say the same about Pittsburgh. Blowing up some abandoned buildings might help the housing market, that’s for sure.

              3. I’ve never been to Akron.

                Nor have I ever been pinned down and sodomized with a hot poker.

                And I do not wish either experience.

                1. Goddamn Canadian, with your Timbits and non-bacon.

            2. LeBron James and his supporters are already forbidden from Akron, so there’s precedent.

            3. Nah, isn’t that what the gubmint’s for? Step in & not allow that bullshit? Unless of course the congress or the SCOTUS was to become 60% Saudi, which strikes me as unlikely, this is still the US of A, ain’t it?

            4. Ya wanna answer the question?

              Culture isn’t a libertarian strong suit, but there’s a reason that libertarian thought arose in the West.

            5. No, because, thankfully, intolerance is not genetic.

          3. I agree with Tulpa. I am sadden that such a statement has to be made to people. I can only assume that “Jeffersonian” is used in irony.

    2. Unlike ground zero those places actually are “holy ground.” Which is besides the point. We shouldn’t be trying to emulate Saudi Arabia.

      1. Besides, true scared ground on the level of Mecca and Medina for Christians would be in territory Israel controls, not America. So it fails on multiple levels.

        1. And if Israel started denying access to those places, all hell would break lose.

          1. Good enough reason to overthrow the Saudis I suppose.

      2. The graveyard of close to 3,000 Americans who died in a massive attack on this country by enemies of freedom is not “sacred ground”?!? How do you feel about Gettysburg? Should we open up that patch for condo development? Or Omaha Beach in Normandy? Maybe you’d like to see that area rezoned for seaside resorts?

        1. I didn’t realize they buried 3,000 Americans two blocks north of the towers in a Burlington Coat Factory.

          Weird.

          1. Timon, you really are a fellator of all things Muslim, aren’t you?

            1. What does my comment have to do with Muslim fellatio?

              Patch-inator, on the other hand, seems to think the BCF site has 3,000 Americans’ remains somewhere inside.

        2. Thy sounds great. Then we can use the land, a scarce resource, for something useful. Graveyards are wastes of good real estate.

          1. We? “We” don’t own the property.

            Side: 5 in 100 is 1 in 20. Radley, are you telling me that 1 in 20 American Muslims (of over 3 million) express some level of support for Al Queda? That number is actually huge.

            Not that it really has much to do with anything. I live in New York and couldn’t care less about the Mosque. Do think Gutfeld’s gay bar is hilarious, though.

            1. My thought is that we should actually build a mosque on top of the new freedom tower, whenever they get around to building it. That way, we won’t need to worry about terrorists attacking it again…

    3. Oh, yeah? Well what about Deuteronomy 22 6-7?

      If you come across a bird’s nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young. You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life.

      1. Wait, so it’s ok to rape baby birds? Fuckin’ sweet.

        1. Your disturbitude still shines bright.

        2. Those baby birds are asking for a good rape’n with all that chirping and downy goodness. They got them beaks wide open, too.

    4. They don’t haver freedom of speech in N. Korea either. This has nothing to do about the rights of N. Koreans in the US. But you knew that.

    5. Well, I am unclean, so it’s not completely unjustified to keep me out.

      1. Me too. And I so wanted to see that bitching clock they just built.

    6. Sheesh. A troll hijacks the debate from the gitgo, and all the rubes bite.
      Sad but predictable.

    7. You know you can’t go into a Mormon temple under any circumstances unless you are Mormon. OH NOES!

      1. Actually, about 80% of Mormons can’t enter the Temples either. See below. The Mormon church has strict rules about who they let on their private property.

      2. I need to get the magic underwear?

    8. James,

      As an aside, did you know that Hassidic Jews feel the same way about “treif”, i.e. non-Jews? A good Hassidim won’t even let a gentile into his house, because they fear the contamination. Just to compare and contrast.

      1. Appreciate your aside. I did not know that. Thanks.

        But I did know the Mormon temple thing as I have a friend who was excommunicated and therefore unable to attend her sister’s wedding.

      2. One Hassid, many Hassidim.

      3. Um, no. Maybe some Hassidim, but certainly not all. I think you’re misinformed.

    9. And it’s Wahabism – the dominant Islamic theology of Saudi Arabia – that interprets this as the whole damn cities rather than just the mosques themselves. Wahabists would tell you that their interpretation is the only real interpretation. So you’re pretty much playing into their hands by using their interpretation as the only interpretation of Islam.

      Everybody who’s insisting on the most sinister interpretation of Islam and denying that, like Christianity and Judaism, not everybody’s a horrific fuckface, even if there’s horrific fuckfacery in the holy text, well, you’re playing into Wahabists’ and Al Qaeda’s hands.

    10. FWIW, I think this came from Sean Hannity’s radio show word-for-word.

    11. Did you know that non Mormons are not allowed in a Mormon Temple? How dare these pale skinned milk drinkers have such a policy!!!!

    12. Just an aside, but did you know that non-Muslims are barred from entering the cities of Mecca and Medina ? not merely barred from building synagogues or churches, but barred, period, because their infidel feet are deemed unfit to touch the ground.

      Did you know that only Mormons with a current Temple Recommend are allowed to set foot inside the 100+ Mormon Temples (not the meetinghouses, just the Temples).

      Want to wax indignant about that too?

      People have the right to exclude anyone they want from property they own. Does that concept horrify you?

      1. Do you appreciate the difference between specific buildings and entire cities?

        1. Is there a difference in Saudi Arabia?

      2. Yeah, and they murdered a whole bunch of gentiles at Mountain Meadows a hundred and fifty years ago, too.

      3. “People have the right to exclude anyone they want from property they own. Does that concept horrify you?”

        Not true!

        Try telling a Black customer you don’t serve negros.

        Hell, Mike Ditka can’t even allow smokers to smoke in his restaurant in Chicago.

        1. Sadly not all private property is equal in the eyes of the government. Whoever wrote this probably means residential privately-owned property.

    13. Wow, word-for-word from Rush Limbaugh yesterday. So that’s why they call you dittoheads.

      Good work, James!

  2. What mosque/activity center scuffle?

    1. I was wondering the same thing.

    2. Sounds like a scam to me.

    3. Didn’t you hear!? Those muslims that blew up the towers want to build a victory mosque to celebrate!

  3. the only subset of American Muslims where support for Al Qaeda and suicide attacks gets uncomfortably high is among native-born African-American converts

    *whistles*

  4. “We don’t have the Muslim ghettos”

    Utter bullshit. Come to Minneapolis sometime and check out the West Bank.

    1. Not compared to the level France has, for instance. Nowhere near.

    2. Are muslim youth in Minneapolis considered non-citizens even though they are 2nd or 3rd generation?

      Do they suffer double the unemployment rate of non-muslims?

      Are they out rioting and burning cars?

      1. No. They are going to Somolia to join the Jihad. The point is, there are muslim ghettos in the USA. And personally, I have no problem with that. They have some darn fine restaurants. I was just at Bilal’s today, a great little Afghan joint.

        1. The problems start when Muslims hit numbers that give them a political majority or large plurality. Islam is a very political religion.

          1. “”Islam is a very political religion.””

            So is Christianity in many respects.

            1. Ummm…no. You don’t seem to grasp the concept here.

            2. Uhm… no. Evangelicals, the most political strain of Christianity, only make up 10 per cent of the world’s Christians. More than half the Christians on the planet are Catholic. In 1979 Pope John Paul II reinforced the Vatican’s belief (granted, a recent development)in separation of church and state by issuing a papal encyclical ordering Catholic priests holding political office to resign. Remember, Jesus told his followers his kingdom is “not of this world” and to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. The other told his followers that Islam will one day rule the world. Big, big difference.

              1. Right, the Catholics never attempt to influence politics…

          2. Seen this somewhere:

            Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult.

            In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.

            Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

            Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

            When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.

            Here’s how it works:
            As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the > case in:

            United States — Muslim 0..6%
            Australia — Muslim 1.5%
            Canada — Muslim 1.9%
            China — Muslim 1.8%
            Italy — Muslim 1.5%
            Norway — Muslim 1.8%

            At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:

            Denmark — Muslim 2%
            Germany — Muslim 3.7%
            United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
            Spain — Muslim 4%
            Thailand — Muslim 4.6%

            >From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

            France — Muslim 8%
            Philippines — 5%
            Sweden — Muslim 5%
            Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
            The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
            Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

            At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

            When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. In Russia, grade-schools were attacked. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

            Guyana — Muslim 10%
            India — Muslim 13.4%
            Israel — Muslim 16%
            Kenya — Muslim 10%
            Russia — Muslim 15%

            After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

            Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

            At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

            Bosnia — Muslim 40%
            Chad — Muslim 53.1%
            Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

            >From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

            Albania — Muslim 70%
            Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
            Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
            Sudan — Muslim 70%

            After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, beheadings, stoning, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:

            Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
            Egypt — Muslim 90%
            Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
            Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
            Iran — Muslim 98%
            Iraq — Muslim 97%
            Jordan — Muslim 92%
            Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
            Pakistan — Muslim 97%
            Palestine — Muslim 99%
            Syria — Muslim 90%
            Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
            Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
            United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

            Is this the future of the United States?

            1. tl;dr

              What’s with the copypasta?

            2. 1) Only one of the countries with above a 10% population is a first-world democracy.

              2) Correlation does not equal causation. All those things you mentioned? They tend to go with *any* unstable/poor country.

              3) How on earth is the United States, a country of 300 million people, going to go from 0.6% Muslim to even 10% Muslim? Are there 27 million people lined up waiting to convert?

              4) Here’s a thought: You know who’s not Muslim? *MEXICANS.* You know, those people across the border coming here looking for a better life?

              Solution to ensuing Muslim crisis: Let all the Mexicans in & citizensize ’em right quick. Boom. Muslim problem: SOLVED.

              You’re welcome.

            3. in Bosnia, the widespread massacres were directed towards Muslims. Some of those 80% countries do lots of human rights and women empowerment stuff, like Bangladesh. It was a Muslim from Bangladesh who came up with microcredit, which is used even in the US to help people in poverty. i know that know things are crazy, but back in the 50s when Iraq was peaceful there were lots of churches there. If you knew some Muslims, you’d know that they are people just like you!
              http://lundfiction.blogspot.com/

        2. I think you and I attach different meanings to “ghetto”.

          1. I go with the standard definition.

            1. OK, I’ll bite. I haven’t been to any muslim enclaves in the US. How does West Minneapolis compare to any of the black ghettoes in the US during the 60’s, pre- and/or post-riots?

            2. The one the Elvis crooned over?

              1. As the snow flies
                On a cold and gray Chicago mornin’
                A poor little baby child is born
                In the ghetto
                And his mama cries
                ’cause if there’s one thing that she don’t need
                it’s another hungry mouth to feed
                In the ghetto

                People, don’t you understand
                the child needs a helping hand
                or he’ll grow to be an angry young man some day
                Take a look at you and me,
                are we too blind to see,
                do we simply turn our heads
                and look the other way

                Well the world turns
                and a hungry little boy with a runny nose
                plays in the street as the cold wind blows
                In the ghetto

                And his hunger burns
                so he starts to roam the streets at night
                and he learns how to steal
                and he learns how to fight
                In the ghetto

                Then one night in desperation
                a young man breaks away
                He buys a gun, steals a car,
                tries to run, but he don’t get far
                And his mama cries

                As a crowd gathers ’round an angry young man
                face down on the street with a gun in his hand
                In the ghetto

                As her young man dies,
                on a cold and gray Chicago mornin’,
                another little baby child is born
                In the ghetto

                1. More often than not ghettos are within the east side of the city. Same with civilization ie West vs East.

              2. I sooooo hated that dumb song.

            3. A walled quarter for the Jews?

              1. Generally, Number 1:

                ghet?to? ?/?g?to?/ Show Spelled[get-oh]
                ?noun, plural -tos, -toes.
                1. a section of a city, esp. a thickly populated slum area, inhabited predominantly by members of an ethnic or other minority group, often as a result of social or economic restrictions, pressures, or hardships.
                2. (formerly, in most European countries) a section of a city in which all Jews were required to live.
                3. a section predominantly inhabited by Jews.
                4. any mode of living, working, etc., that results from stereotyping or biased treatment: job ghettos for women; ghettos for the elderly.

      2. “Do they suffer double the unemployment rate of non-muslims?”

        The newly arrived and first-born generation youth do.

        1. That’s an excellent argument for ending the minimum wage.

    3. The West Bank of the Mississippi?

    4. Isn’t the West Bank where U of Minnesota is located? Must make for some interesting experiences having frat houses in the middle of a Muslim ghetto.

      1. They abut one another. Cedar Square West is known as “Little Mogadishu”, and also has some excellent Somali restaurants near by.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside_Plaza

        1. Somali food? Is there an easy analogy?

            1. It is like Ethiopian-esque or does it have African-Arab elements? Somali is a cuisine I’ve not had yet.

              1. It’s a kinda of Italian-Moroccan-Scot fusion.

                1. Please delete “of” above.

            2. I think SugarFree means “Somali food” sounds like an oxymoron.

      2. BTW, the Frat Houses are all on the East Bank along University Ave NE.

        1. Gobby is right. There are a couple of Minneapolis neighborhoods with high concentrations of Muslims. NTTAWWT. I’ve worked with homeless kids from Somalia, Ethiopia, Morocco, etc. Good kids all. We have Somali gangs, but they only shoot each other.

          1. Really? Well, that’s mighty white of them.

      3. The U of MN Minneapolis campus is split in to two sections by the Mississippi River. The B-School and some other buildings are on the West Bank. The majority of the campus, frat houses, the stadium and arenas are all on the East Bank. The Somalis live in a neighborhood near the West Bank campus.

    5. Come to Minneapolis sometime and check out the West Bank.

      At least they chose a good name. Do they also have a section of road called the Gaza Strip?

      1. It would be funny if they had a titty bar called The Gaza Strip.

        Actually, that would be a great place to set up a business next door to the Muslim temple near Ground Zero, test their tolerance.

        1. Hah! Prolefeed, that would be hilarious if humour wasn’t illegal under Islam. Oh, and nice literary analogy too on your handle.

        2. Maybe the Gaze-A-Strip. Or Gays-A-Strip if you want a gay titty bar.

    6. One of the other fun facts about our Somali immigrants is that they cannot be deported for committing crimes because there is no recognized government to repatriate them to.

      My info might be dated, but the last I heard was they tried and failed to drop one miscreant off.

      1. I do have to give props to the Somali community for assimilating in one aspect at least fully into their new home. That is that they are big time grievance group types.

        Two big time issues here in the Twin Cities are whether airport taxi drivers (largely Somali) have to give rides to travelers who have booze in their luggage and whether checkout clerks must handle pork products.

        1. I don’t see why either of those things are an issue. Somali taxi drivers who won’t transport customers provide opportunities for taxi drivers who will, and if the grocery store owners are willing to have employees who won’t do their jobs, presumably that’s their decision.

  5. But the good news is that Muslim Americans appear to be confident enough with their position here that the escalating hysterics of Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, & Co. aren’t likely to budge their general optimism about America.

    Am I the only one embarrassed by all of this whining and faux outrage over a non-mosque being build at non-ground zero?

    I’ve long known that Palin had nothing of substance to add to the political conversation but it’s disappointing to see Newt get his panties in a bunch over this completely unimportant nonsense.

    1. I think a lot of it is politicking for the November election. Barry stepped right into it and team red is going to start driving the nail, because the stupid fuckers gave them a nail to drive. If one side had just STFU and not addressed the stupid people then this wouldn’t be an issue.

      1. The Tea Party types were talking about this long before Obama mentioned it.

        1. WTF is a “Tea Party ‘Type'”?

          1. Maybe he means “Font.” I think Perpetua would be a nice Tea Party Font. Or, perhaps, Poor Richard.

            1. Ratfucker Condensed ATT

            2. So, what is the font of liberty?

              1. The Liberty Font, of course.

                1. That would make a great name for a wine bar near Ground Zero.

            3. Comic Sans, obviously.

              1. I think that’s the Libertarian Party’s font, not the font of liberty per se.

          2. I think he means people who are self described tea partiers. I could be wrong.

            1. I am a Hit & Run ‘type’.

              1. We’re font of you anyways.

            2. People who either call themselves Tea Partiers or have a beleif system similiar to them (for example Palin, who I don’t think refers to herself as a Tea Partier but who is certainly in their “orbit”).

            3. Is it “tea partier” or “tea bagger”?

              1. Depends, for example: If you’re an arugula eating salad tosser you probably say “tea-bagger” and if you’re a patriot you probably say “tea-partier”. 🙂

                1. I wonder which one you use…

    2. I’m embarrassed about all the stupid stuff Republicans/Tea Partiers/right wing loonies say all the time. The non-mosque being built at non-ground zero is no worse than saying the President wasn’t born in the United States, for instance.

      1. So Harry Reid and a couple of Congresscritters from NY have left the Democrats and joined the Republican Party? Does Harry lose his leadership position due to this switch?

        1. I doubt anyone here besides Tony would defend Harry Reid as being anything but a d-bag opportunist.

          1. But Reid is the Senate Majority Leader. He is a lot more important that two out of work Republicans. Yet, we never hear the view associated with Reid, just Palin and Gingrich. Why?

            1. Palin and Gingrich are not “out of work” by any stretch of the imagination.

              1. They are sure as hell not the Majority leader in the Senate.

            2. Because Reid is merely changing with the winds, like the empty bag of air that he is, while Palin, Gingrich etc. are the ones blowing it.

              1. Yeah that sounds about right David, haha.

              2. So Republicans are really evil, Democrats don’t mean it. I heard a lot of that in 2008 when Obama was saying he was going to be tough on terror and go hard in Afghanistan. He didn’t really mean it. How is that working out for you?

                1. I’m not sure how calling someone a “d-bag opportunist” is intended as a compliment.

            3. Because Reid just made his comment yesterday or the day before. Palin and Gingrich have been bloviating about this for months. Also, they’ve been going out of their way to tell it to anyone with a microphone and a camera.

        2. In the lexicon of the left, terms possess no concrete meaning.

          “Republican”, “Right-Wing”, “Fox News”, “Rush Limbaugh”, “racist”, “facist” and “Tea Party” are all synonyms for “bad.”

          When someone like Harry Reid opposes Masjid/Community Center Building For Fun and Fitna, their doublethink and crimestop conditioning kicks in.

        3. There are maybe three or four Democratic politicians who have stated that view point, as opposed to hundreds of Republicans (including Reid’s opponent).

      2. Oddly enough every news piece on the subject says its and Islamic cultural center and mosque. How does that equate to “non-mosque”?

        (ALBANY, N.Y.) ? Gov. David Paterson, who last week suggested a proposed Islamic center and mosque near ground zero might want to relocate elsewhere, will meet soon with the project’s developers, a spokesman said Tuesday.

        Paterson’s office declined to say what the meeting would be about, but Rep. Peter King told The Associated Press that the governor wants to discuss possible alternate locations for the Park51 Islamic cultural center and mosque. King said he spoke with the governor Tuesday.

        http://www.time.com/time/natio…..45,00.html

    3. Not the only one. Alec Baldwin is outraged. And that short chubby chick who was in the movie Cats and Dogs with Uma Thurman. She was on Cooper Anderson spewing outrage all over the studio floor. Prolefeed, help me out here. You know who she is. She’s a comedian who’s not really funny.

      1. Garafalo or something. Funny on Larry Sanders!

  6. According to the poll, the only subset of American Muslims where support for Al Qaeda and suicide attacks gets unccomfortably high is among native-born African-American converts, many of whom converted in prison.

    RACIST!!!

  7. I think American Muslims understand how traumatic 9/11 was to America in general, since most of them lived through it as well, and therefore also understand the backlash involved-and how minor the backlash actually was, compared to how bad it theoretically could be. Also, they probably are more educated and richer than European Muslims, coming here by airplane as opposed to ground or sea, like many European Muslims. This means they had to have had enough money to spend several thousand dollars on a plane ticket to get here and came here legally at least at first (although they might have overstaid their visas). European Muslims may be more like Mexicans in America in this sense.

    Plus, although there are certainly Muslim neighborhoods, there aren’t any true ghettos full of them and only them as in France.

    1. “European Muslims may be more like Mexicans in America in this sense.”

      I work in downtown Los Angeles, and I don’t see many (any) Mexicans turning over cars because of unemployment. I see them working their asses off, even selling oranges on street corners if necessary. I see where you were going with the comparison, but I don’t think its relevant.

    2. In Houston there are a fair number of Somali Bantu refugees. Their lives are shit, but they’re no more prone to crime than other poor people as far as I know.

      (Also, Nigerians are the most educated ethnic group in Houston. Not relevant, but interesting.)

    3. Did anyone notice that the Fort Hood shooter, Nidal Hassan, was a doctor and a major in the U.S. Army? Or that wannabe Time Square bomber Feisal Shahzad (for a major league dick he does have a cool sounding last name) had a degree in business administration from Wharton? Or the Muslim TV station owner in New York state who chopped off his wife’s head after she got uppity got his degree from the University of Rochester? Okay, that last example isn’t very academically strong.

      1. Don’t be ridiculous. Everyone knows that murderous barbarism is a trait only associated with the poor, uneducated, underclass.

      2. It just goes to show you that even with an education, you can still be a dumb piece of shit.

    4. I live within the vicinity of a mosque and therefore have many Muslim neighbors. I must say most are friendly and seem to live pious lives, however, not unlike Europeons many of them smell like body odor.

      1. I live within the vicinity of a mosque and therefore have many Muslim neighbors. I must say most are friendly and seem to live pious lives, however, not unlike Europeons, greenies and hippies many of them smell like B O.

        1. Oh, and many of them drive Mercedes so they definately have money or hate Jews or something.

  8. Bloomberg is just trying to help out the NYC tourism industry.

    Tour the site of our victory over the Great Satan, where he was humbled before Allah by 19 brave martyrs! T-shirts $10 each, 3 for $25.

    1. Yeah, except the T-shirts jihadi slogans would be printed in Arabic… to fool the infidels, while the back side would read in English: “We love AMERICA!!! Really!” Same tactics used by Ground Zero Mega-Mosque pitch-Imam Abdul Feisal Rauf whenever he goes on CNN. Although Rauf is really, really bad at taqqiyah.

  9. Two Arab Muslim men bring their families to live in America. They decide to meet 10 years later to see who is more assimilated into American culture. When they meet back the first one starts to brag:

    ” I live in a large cookie cutter house, my wite and I drive cadillacs, my daughter is at Wellesley, my son is an all-state basketball player, we drink starbuck’s and wear Ralph Lauren…”

    The second man cuts him off, “Get the fuck away from me you terrorist.”

    1. I heard it with the punch line “Fuck off, towelhead”

      1. That would apply to Sikhs.

        1. A real American, in the sense this joke implies, wouldn’t know the difference.

          1. I know several real Americans that differentiate between rag-heads and towel-heads.

        2. Kinnath is right. The U.S. government approved epithet is “raghead.”

  10. Oh how I miss Hymietown…

  11. Yeah, good for Muslim Americans and for the other Americans.

  12. Yes, it does appear that Muslims are more assimilated here in the US. But is that really the case or does it just seem that way. We have nothing to fear from peaceful assimilated “any religion” and in our accepting and politically correct society everyone and every religion are welcome. Sadly the radical extremists who can do us the most harm are not the ones we see marching in the street. They are the ones who “appear” assimilated.
    JH http://www.pointlomaelectric.net

    1. Jamie H: How dare you question the Muslims undying commitment and deep love for their American pay checks and their American passports. That last item really comes in handy whenever they get in trouble during visits back to the motherland!

  13. This may come a shock to Radly but the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world are moderate people. Indeed, most of the Muslims in Europe are anything but radical. But it only takes a small minority buying into crazy things to totally screw everything up.

    1. I think there might be some credibility though to the idea that Muslims are more likely to assimilate in America than in Europe, which seems to have a lot more cultural enclaves that are essentially shut off from mainstream society. This is just me saying whatever fits my probably-inaccurate intuition though (like it was hard to tell).

      1. It’s also due to American attitudes of acceptance. When 9/11 happened, Minneapolitans all headed to the Holy Land Deli and Bakery…to show their support of the Muslim community. BTW, the deli is fantastic! Pitted Kalamata olives for $4.69 per pound and a pound of Greek or Egyptian double-cream feta go for about the same price. And it’s so fresh!
        http://www.holylandbrand.com/

    2. As that can be said of any political, religious or social movement, I don’t see particular relevance.

      1. But that works both ways. That makes Radley’s statistics irrelevant. It is not news that most people are not bomb throwing lunatics. They never are.

        1. Your post referenced the “small minority buying into crazy things” in the specific context of Muslims. I was pointing out that it was not a differentiating factor.

          So, again, I do not see any particular significance to the situation of American Muslims, whether foreign or US born.

    3. Doesn’t come as a shock at all. My point was merely that the U.S. doesn’t have a European-style “Muslim problem.” And all of this debate over how best to encourage them to assimilate ignores the fact that they’ve been assimilating just fine.

      1. I don’t know that your statistic says that. What are the Muslim attitudes in Europe towards their host country? Yeah, they are not doing economically as well as Muslims here, but that doesn’t mean a majority of them feel at odds with the society. Maybe they do. But I would like to see the same poll run in Europe. I bet European Muslims are a lot more assimilated than you think. The problem is not so much assimilation or even the vast majority of Muslims. The problem is a small minority of nuts. And no amount of assimilation will solve that.

        1. Did you completely miss 2005?

          1. France is only one country in Europe. And North Africans are only one ethnicity of Muslim. There are millions of Turks and Bosnians and Pakistanis and others all over Europe who are not burning cars.

        2. Europeans as a whole remain remarkably, sexist, racist, and nationalist.

          1. Perhaps we will be saved by American values!

            Tone down the chauvinism please.

            1. I’ve been to England, Ireland, Netherlands, France, Germany, and Russia. I’ve travelled with female coworkers and black coworkers. The difference in treatment I received versus my female and black coworkers is blatant.

              1. You give that same little speech to the swarthy foreigners that have to fly via the US?

                1. The places it was most noticable would be France, Russia, and Australlia. It’s like travelling back in time to the US in the 70’s.

        3. In Europe, I think that assimilation is a large part of the problem. That and the fact the a lot of them are pretty racist. Being excluded from society and citizenship gives you less of a stake in society and less incentive not to fuck it up. Sure there are always outlying extremists in any group, but I think that there is some reason why there are more problems with extreme Muslims in Europe than the US.

          1. I lived in Germany. And yeah Gemrans are racists and hate the Turks. But the Turks don’t seem particularly radical to me. We treated the Irish pretty bad. That didn’t turn them into suicide bombers. Lack of quick assimilation is nothing new. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that a majority of Muslims are going to go radical. But as I said, it only takes a few. And indeed, the terrorists in Madrid, London and New York didn’t seem to be economic victims at all. They were all educated and doing pretty well. Yet they still were lunatics. The problem is not assimilation. While our assimilation is good, it doesn’t mean we will be immune from terrorism in the future.

            1. We treated the Irish pretty bad. That didn’t turn them into suicide bombers.

              No, it just turned them into gangsters. And ethnicism turned Italians into Mafia.

              This is about as reasonable an argument as saying, yes, the Crusades were bad, but at least they never crashed airplanes into buildings.

              1. “No, it just turned them into gangsters. And ethnicism turned Italians into Mafia.”

                That is full retard. First, the Italians brought the mafia with them. Second, every ethnicity in America or in the world has some kind of organized crime. That is just how criminals work. No one is driven to it. Finally, a very small percentage of Italians and Irish were anything but hard working honest people.

                1. The problem is not so much assimilation or even the vast majority of Muslims. The problem is a small minority of nuts. And no amount of assimilation will solve that.

                  John at 4:55 pm, meet John at 5:07.

                  Finally, a very small percentage of Italians and Irish were anything but hard working honest people.

                  You two ought to get along just great.

                  1. If you told me the worst thing Muslims are \going to do is form a mafia, I would be very happy. But they seem to do worse in other places.

              2. “No, it just turned them into gangsters. And ethnicism turned Italians into Mafia.”

                That is full retard. First, the Italians brought the mafia with them. Second, every ethnicity in America or in the world has some kind of organized crime. That is just how criminals work. No one is driven to it. Finally, a very small percentage of Italians and Irish were anything but hard working honest people.

                1. Correction:

                  That is full retard. First, the Sicilians brought the mafia with them.

              3. We treated the Irish pretty bad. That didn’t turn them into suicide bombers.

                No, it just turned them into gangsters.

                I’m a 1/4 Irish. Haven’t robbed any banks lately. I don’t know any people of Irish ancestry who are criminals.

                Got any other racist theories you pulled out of your ass?

                1. I’m actually 1/2 Irish, and in any case when I said “them”, I meant a small minority of Irish, and back when discrimination against Irish was rampant. Likewise with Italians and Mafia; there are plenty of opportunities for Italians that have nothing to do with crime these days, but it wasn’t always so.

            2. We treated the Irish pretty bad. That didn’t turn them into suicide bombers.

              The British might disagree with you on this one (well, you could drop the “suicide” part).

              1. That didn’t turn them into suicide bombers

                Well, there was that orphanage burning, Negro-lynching, draft-dodging riot of 1863, that terrorized and killed a number of New Yorkers like a multiday 9/11. (But they didnt use airplanes!)

                http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html

                http://www.civilwarhome.com/draftriots.htm

                But by afternoon of the first day, some of the rioters had turned to attacks on black people, and on things symbolic of black political, economic, and social power. Rioters attacked a black fruit vendor and a nine-year-old boy at the corner of Broadway and Chambers Street before moving to the Colored Orphan Asylum on Fifth Avenue between Forty-Third and Forty-Fourth Streets. By the spring of 1863, the managers had built a home large enough to house over two hundred children.

                Within hours, groups of irate citizens, many of them Irish immigrants, banded together across the city. Eventually numbering some 50,000 people, the mob terrorized neighborhoods on the East Side of New York for three days looting scores of stores. Blacks were the targets of most attacks on citizens; several lynchings and beatings occurred. In addition, a black church and orphanage were burned to the ground.

          2. Absolutely. The comparison above of Muslims in Europe to Mexicans in the US is an apt one. The biggest difference, of course, is that Mexicans have no trouble getting jobs in the US, while in France job applications with an Arab name on them are probably thrown in the trash.

        4. John, consider the fact we are a melting pot, and european countries are more about nationalism. Muslims can come here and be accepted as a hybrid. In France, an outsider can’t be enough French. We rescued their ass in WWII, and they don’t think highly of us.

          “”The problem is a small minority of nuts. And no amount of assimilation will solve that.”””

          I agree with that. Muslims are not the problem, nuts are.

          1. And now someone’s fighting WW2 as well.

            1. Who’s that? Don’t they know the war has been over decades and the French stopped loving us?

      2. It is a bit ironic that American Muslims are assimilating so well compared to their European counterparts given European countries attitudes toward Israel, they hate the Israelis, and American’s nearly unquestioning support.

        1. Perhaps this is because, when it comes down to living life, the typical Muslim doesn’t think about Israel any more than anyone else. The notion that Muslim thoughts are dominated by Israel (or Jews) is indicative of something.

    4. “”This may come a shock to Radly but the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world are moderate people. Indeed, most of the Muslims in Europe are anything but radical.””

      That may come to a shock to many on the right side of politics.

      1. so those on the wrong side grasp issues better?

        1. Boooooooooooo!

    5. And yet the majority of these “moderate” Muslims still blame the Jews for all the world’s problems. That’s right, they think that 16 million people (versus their 1.54 billion) are responsible for all the world’s problems. Now where have we heard that one before?

      1. Neither you nor i know what the “majority of “moderate” “Muslims”” think but if there’s evidence that anti-semitism is more prevalent among Muslims worldwide than say, Russians, I’ve never seen it.

        True that Muslims worldwide do believe that the state of Israel has disenfranchised and beggared their Palestinian co-religionists. But is blaming the government of Israel the same thing as blaming all (or each) of the Jews?

        If so Americans are copying that unfortunate characteristic of “most Muslims” by blaming all/each Muslim for the actions of Al Queda…

      2. If you have a care about Palestinians, there is plenty of fault to find with Israel.

      3. “And yet the majority of these “moderate” Muslims still blame the Jews for all the world’s problems. That’s right, they think that 16 million people (versus their 1.54 billion) are responsible for all the world’s problems. Now where have we heard that one before?”

        So do a majority of Europeons.

      4. “That’s right, they think that 16 million people (versus their 1.54 billion) are responsible for all the world’s problems. Now where have we heard that one before?”

        Mel Gibson?

  14. the only subset of American Muslims where support for Al Qaeda and suicide attacks gets unccomfortably high is among native-born African-American converts, many of whom converted in prison…it has nothing to do with immigration/assimilation problems, and seems more likely to stem from lingering hostility about race

    What, being churned through the criminal justice system isn’t enough to engender hostility on its own?

    (Of course, there’s nothing like being in prison to turn a man into a racist, so it’s probably a perfectly reasonable assumption.)

    1. Yes. And converting to Islam is the best way to give the finger to the establishment. Muslims who have been overseas and are radicals are like rock stars in prison. It is not a moderate brand being taught there.

      1. Hah. I don’t think the word “moderate” can describe much of anything about culture and life inside our prisons.

        1. It is a real problem. If we ever have a real domestic terrorism problem in this country, it will come from our prisons not our native Muslim communities.

          1. Prison radicalization is a problem in UK/Europe too.

          2. From the laughable “terrorist cells” so far dredged up by DHS, a fair number of them seem to be middle-class kids who ‘feel the call’. This is the same phenomenon seen in countless similar youngsters have in the past with respect to “Universal Faiths” (Christianity, Communissm, Fascism, Nationalism, etc.)

          3. Agreed 100%. The US Prison system is producing hate on a massive industrial scale.

            1. It does bad things to a society to lock large numbers of people up. The Imperial Russians did that. And they created a malignant prison culture that contributed a lot to the murder that happened under the Communists.

            2. And all these poor people are guilty of is breaking American law… like those antiquated ordinances about murder and rape. Why after all these years are those still on the books?!?

          4. Karma’s a bitch.

          5. We already have a real terrorism problem coming from the prisons. It’s just confined to several urban neighborhoods/projects.

            1. “It’s just confined to several urban neighborhoods/projects.”

              Wow! Ghettos!

          6. If we ever have a real domestic terrorism problem in this country, it will come from our prisons not our native Muslim communities.

            If they were building a Muslim prison near the WTC, this would be a swell argument for your side.

                1. Exactly

                  1. Whaaaaat-ever!

      2. Zealotry amongst converts is not exactly new:

        JAQUES
        To him will I : out of these convertites
        There is much matter to be heard and learn’d

        As You Like It, Act V, Scene IV

        Also: St Paul.

        1. No. But it is no less dangerous now than it ever was. Yeah, some of the early converts to Christianity were crazy. And they were not so nice to the Pagans. Sorry but that doesn’t make me feel any better about the current crop of converts coming out of our prisons.

  15. It may already be somewhere in the blog post or the comments, but how does the relative size of the US muslim population compare to that in Europe? My understanding is that Muslims make up a significantly large proprotion of the general population in many European countries, certainly in the ones experiencing the most Muslim-centric upheaval. Is the apparent assimilation of the US muslim community just a case of them not hitting critical mass yet?

    1. CIA World Factbook: Muslim Minority Populations:

      France 5-10%
      Germany 3.7%
      Netherlands 5.8%
      Greece 1.3%
      UK 2.7%
      USA 0.6%
      Canada 1.9%
      India 13.4%
      Russia 10-15%
      China 1-2%
      Philippines 5%

      so could be I guess. But I think the mobility of US economy is what leads to immigrant success, Muslim or not

  16. So Harry Reid and a couple of Congresscritters from NY have left the Democrats and joined the Republican Party? Does Harry lose his leadership position due to this switch?

    They’re HYSTERICAL NUDE PANDERING to people who wouldn’t vote for them anyway, because those people are a-skeert of American success stories and shit, so it’s your fault, not theirs. TEAMBLUE!.E.D.

  17. “I’m not an immigration expert, so I’m not going to pretend…”

    You fucking libertarians don’t know squat about economics, but you manage to base an overarching worldview on the basis of economic assumptions. Why so modest when it come to immigration, for Christ’s sake?

    1. That sounded like forcibly manufactured comment instead of an actual belief that you are sharing.
      Ha – I bet you were giggling when you wrote that.

    2. Thanks for coming here and perpetuating every negative stereotype you can about the trolls who visit. Cause ya know, this is gonna make people take you seriously.

  18. “It’s worth condemning the “Ground Zero Mosque” demagoguery for the naked pandering to fear that it is.”

    I am unbelievably disappointed that so many libertarians enthusiatically embrace this kind of language when discussing those who disagree with them. I’ve wanted to believe libertarians were generally the poeple willing to discuss issues honestly. But here we see they devolve into demogoguery better left to the extremists.

    1. I don’t get that either. It’s always worth condemning demagoguery, but there’s reasonable arguments for building the whathaveyou somewhere else.

  19. Gay Americans Muslims embrace modernity, are better educated, and earn more money than their non-Muslim straight fellow citizens . . .

    I thought that sounded familiar . . . .

    And WTF does “embrace modernity” mean, anyway?

    1. Not stuck with the primitive ideas and mentalities of their that run ramped in their shit-hole 3rd world countries.

      1. ah fuck, take out “of their”

        1. how about ramped…we just gunna leave that?

    2. And what is wrong with pointing out either fact (assuming that we can make sense of “embrace modernity”)? Gay Americans are not likely to become terrorists either.

      1. If they don’t get their way in the Prop 8 court case, I wouldn’t be surprised to see gay suicide bombings of courthouses that refuse marriage licenses.

    3. “And WTF does “embrace modernity” mean, anyway?”

      Hookers and blow, I think.

      1. and owning pet dogs

  20. “strong majorities condemn suicide attacks for any reason (80+ percent), ”

    See only 20% support sucide bombers. So 20% of 3m, = 600k

    That’s not a problem right?

    1. You’re 100% certain that the question was a binary one? Not that I think you would massage incomplete statistical information to suit your purposes or anything…

      1. I’m just basing my comment off of the information provided. If 80% think sucide bombing isn’t ok under any situation, then the other 20% must have a position at least a little different.

        What would you infer their position was?

        1. It also said 80+ percent, not exactly 80%. So it could be as high as 89%.

          In either case, I doubt you could get 80% of Americans to say they don’t think Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, so that means little.

          1. Bad analogy.

        2. I wouldn’t make an inference on such scant information.

          It all depends on the question asked and the responses available to choose from.

          1. Well, we know what the question that was asked was don’t we? Do you support sucide bombing under any circumstances. We don’t know all the answers, but apparently 20% of them couldn’t answer No, I don’t not under any circumstances.

            I’m not sure what else they could have answered then…

            1. Well, we know what the question that was asked was don’t we?

              Since no citation was given, I can’t be certain that that wasn’t commentary or a paraphrase.

              Likely, the question, even if it were asked plainly like that was either given some qualifications or the available answers provided context. We have none of that.

              Thus, no inference other than a rather large majority (4 or more to 1) agree that it’s unacceptable.

              1. And roughly 600,000 said that there were circumstances where it might be okay.

                Timon, if you can infer that ‘rather large majority’, then you must accept the rather large minority that feels that there ARE circumstances, albeit unnamed, under which it’s okay to, say, hop on a bus and blow yourself and your fellow passengers into gobbets of warm meat.

                Oh, and I’d give that majority 5 to 1.

    2. I bet if you ran a similar poll amongst white Americans on the subject of lynching, the “condemn it for any reason” group would not go much above 80%.

      1. I want to see that poll. I suspect you are wrong.

      2. Given our resident anarchos, I doubt it would go above 80% on Hit & Run even.

        1. The resident anarchos are much more likely to prevent a lynching-particularly in view of the fact that it has been the state which has perpetrated hundreds of millions of them.

          1. Considering that lynching is the basis of whatever clusterfuck you guys would have to replace the criminal justice system, I don’t think so.

        2. Wait, are we better or worse than mainstream Americans here?

          1. Well, I’m better. I don’t know about you.

      3. Shit, I’d consider a vote to acquit on a lynching of Sheriff Joe.

        1. See what I mean?

    3. I support Pam Anderson giving blow jobs, that doesn’t mean I’m going to give blow jobs.

      1. not even a little bit?

      2. Poor Pam, nobody takes her seriously.

    4. it’s not too hard to believe that 20% of Muslims in America can’t bring themselves to completely condemn suicide bombing in specific circumstances — against military targets in Israel as long as Israel maintains what those people perceive to be an illegal occupation.

      I hasten to add I would not agree with those 20%, and that i condemn all suicide attacks and related violence. But that number would not surprise me. Would it surprise anyone?

      Wonder what percentage of US Irish Americans supported the IRA in the 50’s and 60’s?

  21. In the Bible, the God of Abraham said:

    Deuteronomy 20:16 But as for the towns of these peoples that Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. 17 You shall annihilate them–the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites–just as Yahweh your God has commanded….

    So, being ordered to stay out of Mecca doesn’t bother me.

    Muslims who come here from the Middle East are on average, better educated and more peaceful than American Blacks who convert to Islam. What a surprise!!

    When you consider that, according to the Justice Dept., blacks are 8 times as likely to commit homicide as whites, it is not a surprise that the Muslim converts would be more prone to committing terrorist violence

  22. Assimilation isn’t very difficult – McDonald’s, strip clubs, and flight schools.

    No, really. Ask Major Hasan.

    1. Or John Allen Muhammed.

      Or that dude who fragged his CO in Saudi.

      Or the fellow who beheaded his wife.

      1. John Allen Muhammad presumably wouldn’t have had too hard a time assimilating to the US as he was born in Louisiana.

  23. Aren’t Muslim immigrants to the US more likely to be *already* educated and well-off, thanks to our immigration policies? Anyone have expertise on this?

    1. Are you referring to student visas?

  24. And while we’re on the subject of unbelievers visiting Medina and Mecca, let’s not forget Richard Francis Burton. (The 19th century adventurer, not the 20th century actor.)

  25. the only subset of American Muslims where support for Al Qaeda and suicide attacks gets unccomfortably high is among native-born African-American converts

    “LISTEN KID. I’ve been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I’m out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.”

  26. Don’t worry, Governor Paterson is going to meet with the mosque builders to try to get them to move. Now if we were talking about any other property owner being sat down by the State and urged to go elsewhere, the commentariat would be pretty unanimous that this was borderline coercion. Then there’s this little tidbit:

    Paterson last week offered his help and the possibility that state land could be provided as an alternate site for the center.

    [Rep. Peter] King, the ranking minority leader of the Homeland Security Committee, said that he had spoken to Paterson on Tuesday and that the governor expected the meeting to take place within days.

    “He said he is meeting in the next day or so with the developers and the leaders of the mosque to discuss his proposal to move it to state land. My understanding was the imam is going to be there,” King told the AP.

    I’m pretty sure any attempt to build a mosque on state land would run afoul of the Establishment Clause, as would selling it to the mosque builders without making it available to other buyers on equal footing.

    1. Don’t worry, Dem Governor Paterson is going to meet with the mosque builders to try to get them to move.

    2. Any evidence that the commentariat isn’t unanimous that this is borderline coercion?

      1. I disagree that it’s borderline.

      2. I’d love it if there were such evidence, but I doubt there will be.

    3. I’m pretty sure any attempt to build a mosque on state land would run afoul of the Establishment Clause, as would selling it to the mosque builders without making it available to other buyers on equal footing.

      New York could just take a few city blocks via eminent domain, it is bound to be “blighted, toss out a bunch of old, sick Jewish pensioners and give it to the Imam.

      1. That would of course be unconstitutional under the Takings Clause, but even following the current warped state of eminent domain jurisprudence, that would still violate Establishment Clause as well since the state is singling out a religious organization for a benefit.

        1. But just think of the number of comments on H&R that would generate. It would be “epic” as my kids say.

  27. Oh, here’s the link.

  28. Yay, Reason gets to bash Sarah Palin again! No article is complete without tearing down that uppity woman for offering an opinion on a current issue of discussion. She’s obviously uneducated and bigoted, and not the kind of person we would hang out with here. Just look at her in the photos that we pick to post on this site!

    And if the far more statist Harry Reid and many of his Democratic buddies share that opinion – why that’s different, obviously.

    1. Sarah Palin sucks, and so do you.

      1. Yeah, but Sarah is prettier than you.

        1. there’s nothing wrong with wanting to fuck the mentally enfeebled, but it’s thin gruel to build a lifestyle around.

          sure, the libertine cultural elitists may judge you at their beltway cocktail parties on manhattan’s upper east side, but when you look into each other’s eyes…when you’re dazzled by the sheen of her hair peeking out from underneath her safety helmet…when you can sit together in a comfortable silence and read every english language publication available…that’s a love no cosmopolitan can ever understand.

  29. I just came across this blog-site today, and was immediately impressed with the clear, mature and intelligent articles I read. I found a great deal of information and thought provoking viewpoints to consider. And then… I started reading the comments section. I can’t seem to find the words to express my surprise. It was if I had walked into a freshman dorm room and found everyone giving each other wedgies, lighting farts, and throwing water balloons out the window. If there was ever a case for needing a site moderator, this would be it. Seriously, as a note to the site manager, the comments section really damages the image and credibility of your otherwise exceptional site.
    Having said that, I am now braced to receive the barrage of insults that are sure to come. Go ahead, let me have it.

    1. The comments are an indicator of why I remain a small “l” libertarian instead of a “L” libertarian.

      You can also look at the sneering and belittling treatment given by the Reason authors (not commenters) to people who should be natural allies on maybe 80% of the issues, like Sarah Palin.

      1. Sarah Palin is not an ally of even the most conservative-leaning libertarian on 80% of the issues. She’s terrible on the drug war and domestic war on terror issues (such as this one) which is probably enough to drop her below that even before we get to the issues where libertarians aren’t unanimous like immigration, abortion, and foreign policy.

        1. I seriously doubt that libertarians are unanimous on anything, it’s not in our nature.

          1. “I seriously doubt that libertarians are unanimous on anything, it’s not in our nature.”

            I completely disagree with you. I think we’re completely unanimous.

        2. She’s terrible on the drug war…

          A ten second Google search on Sarah Palin and the drug war finds this link:
          http://www.libertarianrepublic…..e-law.html

          While she doesn’t have the favored libertarian position, she seems a lot better than noted drug warrior Joe Biden.

          What other stuff are you making up?

          1. Pretty much everything when it comes to Palin since above all Libertarians want to be considered as “cool” and “hip”.

    2. I won’t berate you for your opinion. I do strongly with your calling for a site moderator. The blogs that have moderators all seem to be just echo chambers; if you offer a provocative or differing opinion, you literally get banned from the site.

      Stick around a while, I think you will come to appreciate the H&R commentators. I certainly have.

    3. “It was if I had walked into a freshman dorm room and found everyone giving each other wedgies, lighting farts, and throwing water balloons out the window.”

      Yeah, you trolls really bring down the discussion around here.

    4. No one has to insult you for wanting to rain on our parade. We can simply suggest that if you find the down and dirty nature of the comments to be a detriment you can-

      a) Not read the comments
      b) Leave

      See we’re all about insane levels of freedom here.

  30. THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!

  31. Just don’t read any comments from Tony or Max and you will be fine. I don’t.

  32. “It was if I had walked into a freshman dorm room and found everyone giving each other wedgies, lighting farts, and throwing water balloons out the window.”

    Welcome to dogmatic Libertarianism.

  33. Is that you, Dave?

  34. I am tired, very tired of talking about the ground zero mosque. Build it. Let’s see what happens.

  35. Balko, what the hell are you doing blogging about the mosque anyway? Surely, there have been a few dogs murdered and children terrorized by a SWAT team somewhere?

    1. Hah! SNAAAAAAPPP!!! In your face, Balko!

  36. Indeed, Balko. It’ll be a complete success story when sharia law is implemented, as it’s bound to be, somewhere soon in a city or county near you. Furthermore that Pew poll is a subterfuge: “just 5 percent of American Muslims express any level of support for Al Qaeda, and strong majorities condemn suicide attacks for any reason (80+ percent)”. Absolute rubbish. If it’s true, why haven’t they spoken up clearly and consistently to condemn the bastards?

  37. “According to the poll, the only subset of American Muslims where support for Al Qaeda and suicide attacks gets unccomfortably high is among native-born African-American converts, many of whom converted in prison”

    Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the Nation of Islam have their very own prophet?

  38. In contrast to many of the minority Muslim populations in Europe, American Muslims embrace modernity, are better educated, and earn more money than their non-Muslim fellow citizens.

    And, like the drunk driver who hasn’t had an accident yet, your advice is to keep going until we do have the same problems as Europe, right?

    “Accidents? Nah – they only happen to other countries!”

  39. The percentage of American Muslims who object to blowing people up for any reason seems to be far greater than any number the most deluded optimistic pacifist would dare to guess for mainstream Americans.

  40. Of course we know this. Everyone who knows anything about Islam knows this. Do you have a point that has something to do with the US, or do you just want to obliquely say that Muslims aren’t fit to live here?

  41. Excellent article, Mr. Balko.

  42. You know, Balko is like a rent-o-journalist. Whatever Obama policy comes along that offends most American’s sensibilities, he will write something that can explain it away as Americans being too stupid to know better. Be it drugs, porn, immigration, or Arabs, liberal think-tanks pretending to be libertarian can explain away everything now days.

  43. yes, I have noticed how well they have assimilated and quietly. They are in our banks,hospitals and all walks of our live.I hope it is not similar to Jamestown, Va in the !600’s when the Indians decided to assimilate, only to rise up and kill all of the Jamestown settlers.

  44. The othere people, Irish, Italians and others came here with nothing. These people are backed by oil money. They are not the poor you see in the streets on news shows. They are educated and rich. It takes money to come to the USA.

    1. i liked the gist of the article, but European Muslims are just ordinary people, too. the US has a rich, educated Muslim population because that’s the only kinds of people they let in. some european countries, like sweden, accept muslim refugees from war-torn countries no matter their backgrounds, so it will often be a poorer, less educated sample compared to the US. it probably will take longer to integrate, but i’ll bet it will turn out to be just fine, and it will be a much finer outcome than in the US. it’s not that hard or momentous to integrate the rich!
      http://lundfiction.blogspot.com/

  45. The problem isn’t Muslims, the problem is Islam.

    There are a lot of great people who are Muslims. But that Islam can rot your brains.

  46. I wonder if the problem most people have is that American Muslims are assimilating. It’s easy to deal with an immigrant if they’re your gardener, but it’s a lot harder when they’re your boss.

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  48. I think one of the biggest factors in the much better integration of Muslim immigrants in the US is birthright citizenship. In much of Europe, the children and grandchildren of immigrants are often not citizens themselves. Here, your very own flesh and blood becomes a direct link to your adopted country and its mainstream. “Anchor babies” are a tiny price to pay for this benefit.

  49. I am so glad that I don’t live in the US with y’all. (Americans, that is).

  50. I want to propose that this poll conflates to groups of Middle Easterners who are actually in opposition. “Muslims” who are really secular who fled Islamic authoritarianism in their homelands – think LA Persians. And recently arriving conservative Muslims and native African-American Muslims. I bet that many of the successful “Muslims” this study conflates into the Muslim demographic who be surprised if not angry at the conflation, just like Richard Dawkins who be to find he is listed in a Christian demographic.

  51. Many Muslims integrated in the American society but not everyone did. There is a large number of extremists that live in the states, those people do not appreciate the life style in the states and they repeatedly asking to change the rules and laws. The danger of extremists is not by executing and terrorist act but by trying to change the rules and the laws using the “human right” act as an excuse. Many Arabs and Muslims worked hard to build a modern society that integrates with the western life, for more example please visit this site.
    http://www.arabicottawa.com/

  52. a country represents integration and assimilation,a successful society stem from included culture.

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