#shameless

Old school justice meets social networking. Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff sent out live-ish Tweets as Ronnie Lee Gardner was executed by firing squad last night.

1) A solemn day. Barring a stay by Sup Ct, & with my final nod, Utah will use most extreme power & execute a killer. Mourn his victims. Justice

2) I just gave the go ahead to Corrections Director to proceed with Gardner's execution. May God grant him the mercy he denied his victims.

3) We will be streaming live my press conference as soon as I'm told Gardner is dead. Watch it at www.attorneygeneral.Utah.gov/live.html

What, no Twitpics of the body?

Comments

[My Irony key is borken]

Thats my Goddamn Attorney General shouldn't Utah be so proud!

[SugarFree]

"He'z bleddin' lol"

[?]

Bleeding hearts!

Sorry.

[Suki]

+1

[Tim]

I figured a "shameless" thread would be about you, shug.

[Episiarch]

"OMG they just sh0t him check it out http://bit.ly/3Rfw4"

[SugarFree]

"bullet p'wn'd! rotflmao"

[Steve Nash Equilibrium]

Successful firing squad is successful.

[Astrid]

Is this some more of that new professionalism I keep hearing about?

[Tim]

It's the new small talk.

[guy in the back row]

He does it so well!

[Warty]

"& with my final nod"

[wylie]

More garbage via twitter? Shocking.

Err, wait, whats a good Firing Squad pun for feigned-surprise? Why couldn't they just use The Chair, dammit.

Oh, and can the USDA release the new pyramid via twitter? That way i can be guaranteed to not know what it recommends.

[BakedPenguin]

While I don't agree with the death penalty, I don't understand why they don't use carbon monoxide poisoning if they're going to execute people. It's relatively quick & totally painless.

[?]

Isn't carbon monoxide a greenhouse gas? You'd be killing Ronnie Lee Gardner and the planet, you insensitive bastard.

[BakedPenguin]

Well, if he's breathing in the CO, isn't that removing it from the atmosphere? It's eco-friendly.

[wylie]

Cue Groovus with "That's not how respiration works!"

[Joe]

They should use lethal injection and put lye into one arm and hydrochloric acid into the other.

[Tim]

Liquid Plumber would sue.

[Tim]

How about Dimethylhydrazine and Nitric Acid. See him explode.

[Ragin Cajun]

Hell, Diet Coke and Menthos.

[coarsetad]

+1

[ClubMedSux]

Save the lye for making true Swabian-style pretzels.

[dwcarkuff]

Or that really gross, jelly like fish crap they eat out in Minnesota.

[BakedPenguin]

lutefisk. I imagine it's an acquired taste, like Vegamite.

[prolefeed]

They give the condemned a choice of methods. This guy chose firing squad over lethal injection.

[?]

His first choice was death by Countdown with Keith Olbermann. They deemed that method cruel and unusual.

[alan]

If this world were a just world, we would be awarding an all time FTW Award for that one and moving on with our lives because there would be nothing to add. Alas, this is not that world.

[?]

Sadly, I can only provide a glimpse of that world.

[IceTrey]

He's one of the last 5 to get to choose. It's all lethal injection now.

[Steve Gunn]

He asked to be executed by firing squad. He was given a choice earlier this year between FS and lethal injection (which is also allegedly quick and painless) and he chose this outcome instead.

[Brian Sorgatz]

Did these Tweets tell anybody anything that wasn't already common knowledge? I happen to oppose the death penalty, but I don't see what the big deal is about the Tweets specifically.

[nobody]

I'm with Sorgatz. I mean, he was tweeting about his job, ya know? It's not like he was tweeting about how much he hates his parents. That would be tacky.

[The Gobbler]

It should be pretty obvious why it is that they hate him.

[Brian Sorgatz]

Don't kill the messenger. I'm just paying them back for their "Families aren't democracies" shit. No justice, no peace. No democracy, no respect.

[wayne]

BS, grow up and get over it. Have some kids of your own and THEN tell me how their "vote" should be weighted the same as yours.

[Brian Sorgatz]

Young people get treated as the new niggers, and I'm supposed to suspend judgment until I'm a parent myself? Bullshit.

[wayne]

BS, you are 38 years old. Thirty f#$%ing eight. You are not young. Kids, real kids, probably say "eww" when they see you. Your childhood is over with; quit living it.

[Brian Sorgatz]

I'm not trying to be hip to the kids, Wayne. Most kids, like most people of all ages, are sheep.

[cynical]

No, you're supposed to have kids so that you finally get a taste of that kind of power. That it all balances out.

[Brian Sorgatz]

I would become what I hate. Lovely.

[sage]

Maybe later on facebook he'll let everyone know which shooter got the blank.

[John]

I don't see what the big deal is. It is not like he gloated or something. He just gave the play by play. If a reporter had followed Shurtleff around all day and written the same tweets, Reason wouldn't be complaining.

[Warty]

I think the point is that an execution is a pretty solemn thing, and twitter is precisely the opposite.

[John]

Is Twitter "solemn enough"? I don't know. I see your point. But I don't see where it is any big deal. If he had written a bunch of crude stuff, then yeah. But what he wrote seems pretty solemn.

Take out the Twitter aspect. Supposed he kept all this in a notebook and then it was published in the newspaper the next day. Would that not be a problem? If not, then what is so special about Twitter? The immediacy of it?

[Warty]

I don't really have any problem with him tweeting about the execution, I just think it reveals something about the character of the AG.

It would probably be a little less tawdry if he wrote it up in the paper, but it would still pretty tacky for the AG to be, essentially, gloating over killing the guy. But then, is there a lower form of life than an AG?

[John]

No. There is no lower lifeform than a State AG. Yes, it was tacky. I would not have done it. I just don't think it is a huge deal. As someone said below, in the Balko leagues of law enforcement outrages, this is rookie ball.

[prolefeed]

I didn't see any comments that came across to me as gloating.

I'm against giving government the power to kill prisoners, but this particular death and the tweets don't strike me as worse than any other state execution.

[JEP]

I think the death penalty is necessary, but unfortunate. Twitter is typically used for band concerts, "cute boots", and other youth shenanigans.

Tweeting about an execution has too much of a "Drill, Baby! Drill" vibe to it. Just crude and tactless.

[Tulpa]

Nothing wrong with gloating over killing a murderer who was convicted after due process. It's the greatest celebration of life that there is.

[Warty]

I never figured you for an internet tough guy, Tulpa. "The greatest celebration of life". Fucking moron.

[SugarFree]

I guess the next logical step is to just let those infallible agents of the state, The Noble Policeman, carry out spot executions.

[Isaac Bartram]

the next logical step is to just let those infallible agents of the state, The Noble Policeman, carry out spot executions.

I think Premier Bligh is planning to introduce that bill in the next session of the Queensland parliament.

[BakedPenguin]

Isaac - I emailed you about the Bull & Bush. If you haven't received it, check your spam pile.

[Isaac Bartram]

Got it, look for a reply in a day or so.

[Tulpa]

So you've never been happy when the bad guy gets killed in a movie, huh?

[SugarFree]

Sane people can distinguish between movies and reality.

[?]

Dirty Harry: Do you feel lucky, punk?
Punk: But you haven't examined the DNA evidence!

[Tonio]

Unless, of course, the conviction was based on perjured testimony, witheld evidence, etc. And that's not the case here, but, still: MORON!

[Bergholt Stuttley Johnson]

You're full of win this afternoon, ?

[cynical]

In a case as clear cut as this one, it's hard to feel bad that the guy is dead.

[?]

The "big deal" is that libertarians are supposed to be against capital punishment. Being in favor of it, and using technology to communicate with others about it, is bad. Or something. I would draw the line, however, if Shurtleff had Tweeted: "He shoots. He scores!"

[Tim]

Or worse, used 🙁

[BakedPenguin]

I would draw the line, however, if Shurtleff had Tweeted: "He shoots. He scores!"

Well, the Malian referee would have called back the bullets anyway.

[John]

It is a good thing Americans don't care about Soccer. If we cared about it as much as say the Brazilians do, the Fifth Fleet would be assembling off of Mali as we speak.

[Warty]

That was some fucking horseshit.

[BakedPenguin]

I remember in France '98, an American referee called a foul on a Brazilian player as he was going into the goal area. The main TV cameras didn't show a foul, and the Brazilians were screaming. The Brazilian Minister of somthing or other went on tv to protest - it actually became a diplomatic incident.

However, a local French tv crew, taking pictures of their own, got a different angle that clearly showed the Brazilian player grabbing and pulling the other guy's jersey. The shut up the Brazilians pretty quick.

[John]

England beat Germany in the finals of the 1966 World Cup on a goal that appeared to bounce off the cross bar and back to the ground but not actually cross the line. A Soviet referee called it a goal. Years later, the referee, a Soviet War veteran, was asked on his death bed if it was really a goal. He gave a one word answer "Stalingrad!"

[Warty]

Did the US invade Mali or something? Maybe we had an undeclared war against them that didn't attract much media attention.

[BakedPenguin]

Well, they've got a large Muslim population in Mali, and our popularity amongst Muslims isn't what it used to be.

[John]

But our popularity in Africa is quite good.

[Steve Nash Equilibrium]

Still England 0-0 Algeria. Hope it stays that way. It's the best result for the US.

[?]

We take the tweets so seriously that we have seamlessly segued from death to soccer without missing a beat. Or maybe the World Cup is deadly serious?

[BakedPenguin]

The only point I can really see here is perhaps government officials should be less callous in regard to taking lives, as it may contribute to an attitude of indifference when innocent people face the death penalty or other harsh punishments.

But that seems like a stretch to me.

[BakedPenguin]

Holy crap, it looks like England and Algeria will draw.

[Spoonman.]

Mali is landlocked.

[?]

That's why we have cruise missiles.

[Tyler]

Haha true, too bad Mali doesn't have a coastline though.

[T]

Libertarians are against the death penalty? I must have missed the memo. Are we against it in principle or in practice? Because I'm fine with it in principle, I just have doubts about the state's (and my state in particular) ability to carry it out competently.

If you hack two people to death with a pickaxe so you can get meth money, I got no problem at all with somebody putting a bullet through your brain. Once you go start killing people, you lose the right to use the "non-initiation of force" argument.

[The Gobbler]

^This

[Moz]

The traditional libertarian view is that while there are certainly people who have forfeited their right to continue consuming valuable oxygen, we don't trust the government/legal system to identify them correctly 100% of the time.

Of course, we then back that up by arming the populace so that we can make those life-death decisions more effectively on our own. Just think of it as crowd-sourcing your firing squads.

[Joe_D]

"Are we against it in principle or in practice?"

I think we're against it in principle because we don't trust any state to carry fairly in practice. The idea is that the state fucks up and you shouldn't give it the chance to fuck up important things.

[Tulpa]

You should oppose sending convicted criminals to prison then, since that fucks people up too.

[?]

Yup. Some libertarians have an unhealthy distrust of all legitimate government action, all the time. This group tends to skew anarchist. Reasonable libertarians would identify the legitimate role of a government of free people as: maintaining an army for national defense, a police force for civil defense, and a court system to arbitrate conflicting claims and to mete out justice and punishment. Anarchists (and moral relativists, among others) would claim that we can never know justice, that the very concept is an arbitrary construction.

[SugarFree]

Being opposed to the death penalty and being opposed to having a justice system even in the abstract are two different things.

But you knew that right? Just trying to score some cheap points for a morally bankrupt viewpoint?

[?]

Yes and no.

[James C Bennett]

In the abstract, is the just punishment for murder not death? It's the uncertainty in practice of judging guilt that councils against it.

I'm sure someone else pointed this out furnther down in this thread, of course.

[Tulpa]

The argument you're giving against the death penalty also argues against any kind of legal punishment.

Of course it's possible to oppose the death penalty and support a criminal justice system. It only requires that one be inconsistent in the application of one's beliefs.

[The Angry Optimist]

Except, you know, that the finality of one prevents state restitution for wholeness in the case of an error. You know they call it "death" for a reason, Tulpa.

"Obtuse. Is it deliberate?"

[?]

in the case of an error

Are you saying that there can be no certainty in life?

[Tulpa]

What is state restitution for 30 years of imprisonment after a false conviction?

If your answer is $$$$$, then (a) that's not really a legitimate answer, since those years aren't replaced by $$$$$$, and you can't plausibly argue that anyone would voluntarily spend decades in RapeLand in return for any amount of cash, and anyway (b) the same restitution can be made to the estate of a wrongfully executed person.

I'm not being flippant about wrongfully executing people here. Something like that happening is a terrible, terrible tragedy that should be avoided at any cost which does not make a mockery of the law (which abolishing capital punishment would do). That's why we afford those sentenced to death a luxurious post-conviction process of appeals.

I'm just as pissed off, if not more than you guys, about the court decisions saying that people on death row with exonerating evidence but who have exhausted their appeals, are out of luck because the system needs "finality". That's not the issue here.

[Zeb]

I would say that killing someone who is shackled and chained and in a prison is initiation of force. The point is supposed to be that you can use force to defend your life/family/property from immanent danger, not that once a person has used force against others he is fair game.

[?]

killing someone who is shackled and chained and in a prison is initiation of force

No. Ronnie Lee Gardner initiated the force.

[WTF]

Libertarians are "supposed to" be against capital punishment?

Sez who? I must have missed the libertarian rool book when they were handing them out.

I believe it should remain legal as an available punishment for certain very horrible crimes, where the evidence is so overwhelming as to leave no doubt.

I realize there have been problems with how it has been imposed, but I don't think that means we shouldn't have it available. By that logic, we shouldn't have life prison sentences either, because sometimes people get wrongly imprisoned. Yes, I know - that's not as permanent as death. But I'm talking about the reasoning usually offered against the death penalty.

[BakedPenguin]

While I'm not crying over this guy, I am against the death penalty. There have been far too many innocent people executed. The state is not to be trusted with such a punishment.

[Cyto]

Agreed. The question isn't "did he deserve to die", it is "can the state be trusted with this power". There are lots of monsters out there that deserve worse than death. And no, we can't trust the state with the power to execute them.

[MWG]

IMO if you claim to be a libertarian and are in favor of giving the government the power to carry out the death penalty then you are in fact a conservative no matter how much you with you were a libertarian.

A true libertarian (though he may agree in theory with the death penalty) will always lean toward limiting government power. The state is just too at risk of screwing things up as has been proven many times over since the advent of reliable DNA testing.

[Tulpa]

A true libertarian (though he may agree in theory with the death penalty) will always lean toward limiting government power.

I do lean toward limiting govt power. I support limiting the death penalty to criminals convicted of murder and treason, in cases where a jury (not the state) decides such a penalty is just.

If you mean denying government power, then that's hogwash. Most libertarians favor government having the power to punish crimes.

[Tonio]

WTF, do you ever actually read Balko's posts? Also, see my 3:53 PM post upthread.

WTF, meet Tulpa; Tulpa, WTF. You two should get on famously.

[WTF]

Oh, puleeze. Lumping me in with Tulpa? That's pretty fucking low.

Yes, I read Balko's posts. Police using paramilitary tactics to go after some guy with a couple joints in his house. War on drugs is stupid. I totally get that.

Which has what to do with whether the death penalty should remain available as a legal option?

[SugarFree]

It's about what power we grant to the state.

[SIV]

I support extra-judicial killing*. No State Monopoly!

*lynching, dueling, vendetta, etc.

[Tonio]

No, Balko's other posts about wrongful conviction, perjured testimony, prosecutors witholding exculpatory evidence. Those posts.

And there's no question in my mind that this particular guy was guilty, but as Sugar said so succinctly above...

[BRM]

I don't agree that to be a good Libertarian, you have to oppose the death penalty. I get the aversion of the state control over a person, but if you take that pose, then why allow any criminal punishment as all jail and fines are state control?

I feel that if you define capital murder correctly, you get down to a collection of crimes that are so foul that the guilty have declared to the world that they are not really human at all. Just as we would kill a dangerous dog, I don't mind killing beings like Mr. Gardner.

He killed a man in cold blood and for no reason during a prison escape attempt. He killed a man before that to get put in prison the first time.

As soon as he got the death penalty, he discovers the sanctity of (his?) life. Too bad for him that he didn't discover this concept about 30 seconds before he blew away an innocent man.

[Clich? Bandit]

It is very simple...If someone is imprisoned wrongfully there is remedy...Not so with the death penalty.

Pretty simple

[Ben Kenobi]

John--a man was just put to death. We shouldn't be so flippant about the state having the right to execute criminals. This pig could have at least shown some respect.

[Brian Sorgatz]

Twitter and the death penalty are two separate issues. I think that's what John meant.

[Tim In Philly]

Respect? The piece of shit they shot didn't show any respect to the people he killed. Why should he be shown respect? Respect is earned, not given. It's called the Golden Rule. He got treated the way he treated others. End of story.

[BakedPenguin]

I agree. This guy was a piece of shit. He deserved no more decorum than that which would accompany dumping some trash in a landfill.

[John]

That is the problem with the death penalty. These fuckers love the show. They love being the center of attention right up until the time they get theirs. I hate how the whole thing becomes such a spectacle. So in that sense, I do object to the Tweeting. These people should be thrown in holes and forgotten.

[Tim]

You think he should have tweeted his own execution?

[Tulpa]

Sorry, only Jeff Goldblum can tweet from the afterlife.

[wylie]

"dumping some trash in a landfill" + "These people should be thrown in holes and forgotten" = Problem Solved.

[BakedPenguin]

wylie, he viciously murdered two people. There was no question about his guilt. I can't find any reason to care about how he was treated.

[wylie]

Agreed. My suggestion was serious.

[Aresen]

These fuckers love the show. They love being the center of attention right up until the time they get theirs. I hate how the whole thing becomes such a spectacle.

Actually, there is nothing new about that. Condemned men have enjoyed their "moment of glory" for centuries.

cf. Hogarth's "Industry and Idleness" series. Henry Fielding and other novelists of the eighteenth century often talk about (and bemoan) the idolization of criminals on the way to Tyburn.

[cynical]

I think he meant a more abstract respect for the sanctity of human life, not respect specifically for the dead shitstain. I mean, I hope.

[BakedPenguin]

Yes, I can understand that aspect. The trouble is, scum like this lower most people's view of humanity.

[Joshua]

"Why should he be shown respect?"

Because we're better than him?

[Sidd Finch]

Why is it shameless?

[P Brooks]

no Twitpics of the body?

He should have a portrait painted of himself giving a big smileyface "thumbs up" next to the corpse. That would look SWEET in his formal dining room.

[Atanarjuat]

Something along these lines?

[wylie]

NEXT TO the corpse, not ON IT. Jeez.

[Tim]

It's not just tweets. I heard some crappy woman on ABC radio news going on about the guy's left arm twitching after the volley. Thanks, we needed to hear that.
On second thought maybe we do.

[Michael Ejercito]

It's not just tweets. I heard some crappy woman on ABC radio news going on about the guy's left arm twitching after the volley. Thanks, we needed to hear that.
On second thought maybe we do.

We used to have public hangings.

[-]

We used to not be pussies.

[WTF]

+148

[Jason]

Didn't we have some executions broadcast on radio?

[-]

Didn't we have some executions broadcast on radio?

Yes! "Execution Night in Texas, brought to you by Lucky Strike! Lucky Strike Means Fine Tobacco."

[Not Sure]

Monday Night Rehabilitation!

[Isaac Bartram]

Executions in Florida were public until 1924.

They were performed by hanging by the sherriff in the county where the crime occurred.

Until 1941 the sherriff or an appointed deputy from the county where the crime occurred went to Starke to throw the switch on Old Sparky.

[Tulpa]

Maybe he was a compulsive bater.

[Nobama]

See, this is what we on the Right have been warning you about! TARP and Obamacare are bad enough, but these Utah Socialist nanny-staters trust the government to LITERALLY decide who lives or dies. Vote Republican in November and take our once-proud nation back!

Wait, what now?

[Michael Ejercito]

See, this is what we on the Right have been warning you about! TARP and Obamacare are bad enough, but these Utah Socialist nanny-staters trust the government to LITERALLY decide who lives or dies. Vote Republican in November and take our once-proud nation back!

Gardner was executed after due process.

Will you complain when Al Qaeda terrorists get their heads blown off by bombs?

[Nobama]

Yes, if any AQ terrorists who are securely incarcerated get bombed, the government has overstepped its bounds. To be sure, killing our own citizens in our own country is worse.

[prolefeed]

Parody FAIL.

[Tulpa]

The government doesn't decide who lives and dies. Juries do.

[MWG]

OJ Simpson...

...just sayin'.

[cynical]

Yes, I suppose it's too bad that a mass murderer whose brutal crimes were committed in front of multiple witnesses dies. Cry me a fucking river.

[P Brooks]

It is not like he gloated or something.

SRSLY?

[Warty]

Pakistani lawyer petitions for death of Mark Zuckerberg

[dbcooper]

You read the Reg?

[Warty]

Nah, saw the link on another forum. The Sun's more my speed.

[dbcooper]

The Reg is generally quality. Worth a read now and then.

[Warty]

But does it have tits and cute animals? That's what I require from my English papers.

[dbcooper]

Has some sex stories and salacious tidbits. Some funny shit on there fairly regularly.

[Slap the Enlightened!]

Pakistani lawyer petitions for death of Mark Zuckerberg

And that's a bad thing, uh - why?

[Michael Ejercito]

We could use more attorney generals like him.

When Osama Bin Laden is summarily executed upon capture, I would love a live tweet from the troops who bust a cap in him.

[IceTrey]

OBL has been dead for 9 years.

[MWG]

2Pac and Elvis OTOH...

[K]

"Elvis is still alive... he just went home!"

[sage]

If I was condemned and had a choice, firing squad would be the way to go. Since I probably couldn't choose walking the plank.

[Tim]

A firing squad of naked porn actresses.

[prolefeed]

Walking the plank in Utah would be less than lethal.

[Ragin Cajun]

Unless they've got a Sarlacc.

[JEP]

being chased off a cliff by a gaggle of naked women?

[Tulpa]

I'd just let myself get caught.

[ClubMedSux]

Moe: Some choice! We're either gonna be burned at the stake or get the guillotine!
Curly: I'd rather be burned at the stake.
Moe: What for?
Curly: Because a hot steak is better than a cold chop!

[Sidd Finch]

What is a shameful way to announce execution orders?

[sage]

drumroll.wav

[Kolohe]

I'm also one thinking along the lines that in the Balko Outrage Reporting Leagues, this is Carolina Single A ball.

[Sidd Finch]

This is extended spring training.

[P Brooks]

Pakistani lawyer petitions for death of Mark Zuckerberg

I read that as "Mort Zuckerman" and I was totally on board.

Now I'm disappointed.

[Tim]

The trolls never show up on these threads to call us "rightwing a-holes" now do they?

[P Brooks]

We will be streaming live my press conference victory dance as soon as I'm told Gardner is dead.

[Mike M.]

Speaking of death by firing squad, when the hell is the turncoat piece of crap Major Malik Nadal Hasan going to be put on trial? I can't think of any valid reason whatsoever why justice needs to take years with this guy.

[P Brooks]

Walking the plank in Utah would be less than lethal.

That lake is full of deadly SALT!

[Tim]

Shoot the lake!

[?]

Nice.

[deet13]

Nah, it would be like walking the plank at the Dead Sea.

The criminal would just bob to the surface due to the lake's high salinity.

On the plus side, the criminal would probably get to see a couple of cupcakes chewing tobacco before they died from dehydration and exposure.

[Hugh Akston]

Sorry Radley, this post is a fail.

Shurtleff is using Twitter for asinine self-promotion, just as it's intended.

There are people out there who think tweets about smoking pot, underage drinking, and gay threesomes are shameless, because you shouldn't be bragging about doing something that is wrong wrong wrong.

Tweeting about killing a human being doesn't make Shurtleff a bad person. It's the killing that does it. Don't confuse the two.

[John]

Spare me the killing a human. The motherfucker forfeited his right to live when he killed all those people. He has no right to live fat dumb and happy in prison for the rest of his life.

[Tulpa]

Do you believe killing in self-defense is justified?

How about killing an enemy soldier who is part of an invading force?

[SugarFree]

Killing in self-defense is fine. Looking up someone 23 year later after they assaulted you and shooting him in the face isn't.

[Tulpa]

So, killing human beings in some circumstances is OK. We agree on that. Now that we've dispensed with the righteous indignation phase, we can start negotiating the price, my lovely.

[SugarFree]

Even you can figure out the difference between being against capital punishment and being a absolute pacifist.

[Tulpa]

I see the difference, but I fail to see where that difference allows room for this level of moral indignation. Once you say that it's OK to kill another human being because he's wearing another country's uniform during an invasion -- even if he's not threatening you at the moment -- that ballgame is over.

[Aresen]

Stolen from George Bernard Shaw, serial numbers filed off and presented as Tulpa's own work.

[Tulpa]

Hey, he wasn't going to be using it anyway.

[WTF]

Oy vey. Here we go with the half-assed interent forum philosophical arguments. That's been shown to be such a productive endeavor, after all.

[T]

What, you thought we were here to be productive?

[Tonio]

Er, *cough*, pot...kettle. Re-read the drivel you posted upthread @3:27

[Solanum]

"Shoot straight, you bastards. Don't make a mess of it!"

[?]

Breaker Morant?

[John]

Kick ass movie.

[Isaac Bartram]

"A Poem by Harry Harbord "Breaker" Morant, Lieutenant, Bushveldt Carbineers

In prison cell I sadly sit -
A d-d crestfallen chappy!
And own to you I feel a bit-
A little bit - unhappy!

It really ain't the place nor time
To reel off rhyming diction-
But yet we'll write a final rhyme
While waiting cru-ci-fixion!

No matteer what 'end' they decide-
Quicklime? or 'b'iling ile? sir!
We'll do our best when crucified
To finish off in style, sir!

But we bequeath a parting tip
For sound advice as such men
As come across in transport ship
To polish off the Dutchmen!

If you encounter any Boers
You really must not loot 'em,
And if you wish to leave these shores
For pity's sake don't shoot 'em!

And if you'd earn a D.S.O.-
Why every British sinner
Should know the proper way to go
Is: 'Ask the Boer to dinner'!

Let's toss a bumper down our throat
Before we pass to Heaven,
And toast: 'the trim-set petticoat
We leave behind in Devon.'

The "trim-set petticoat" is a reference to Hunt's* sister to whom Morant got engaged whilst visiting England"

*Captain Percy Frederick Hunt, Morant's friend, killed by the Boers.

[John]

Bowing to reality, the North Korean government has lifted all restrictions on private markets -- a last-resort option for a regime desperate to prevent its people from starving.

In recent weeks, according to North Korea observers and defector groups with sources in the country, Kim Jong Il's government admitted its inability to solve the current food shortage and encouraged its people to rely on private markets for the purchase of goods. Though the policy reversal will not alter daily patterns -- North Koreans have depended on such markets for more than 15 years -- the latest order from Pyongyang abandons all pretense of a central, planned economy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....id=topnews

Apparently the North Koreans understand economics better than the Democratic Party.

[Tim]

They legalize pot and they'll practically be California.

[Aresen]

"Let 100 Flowers Bloom" Mark II.

My bet is that they will let it go on long enough to solve their immediate problem, then arrest and murder anyone who is successful.

[Tonio]

^That

[BakedPenguin]

They've had markets for a while now. At first, they were just for agricultural products, but as we all know, markets will expand. They recently changed their currency to fuck with traders who'd made a bit of money and amassed some savings. This did not go over well, and there were rumors of riots in some of the hinterlands.

They probably view this as an easy way of taking people's minds off their problems, as well as having one less thing to deal with.

That said, there always remains the possibility that they'll go after the traders at a later date.

[Sean]

So libertarians are supposed to be against capital punishment? I don't remember getting the memo on that one. I guess it's a weighing of your dislike of state power versus my own dislike of violent criminals...

[Tulpa]

I suspect the fact that it's the liberal position on the issue doesn't hurt, either. Libertarians and liberals tend to hang in the same social circles, so they have to have some "sane" positions from a lefty POV to balance all the "law of the jungle" economic positions.

[John]

True. And I hate that.

[Sean]

Who says libertarians have to have "sane" positions on anything by progressive standards? They're the ones who need to read an econ 101 textbook.

As a polyamorous (read: whore), long-haired metalhead who is interested in norse paganism, I don't consider myself to be much of a social conservative. With that said, I would much rather be around GOP folks most of the time. My experience has been that they will listen to my ideas on abortion and drug prohibition and either agree or politely disagree. Progressives, on the other hand, will almost always start a yelling match with me if it turns out I don't hate guns and love socialized medicine and confiscatory taxation.

[Rethuglican Jesus]

"My God has a hammer, your God was nailed to a cross, any questions?"

Odinism aside, I agree with you. Most Chritian's on the right will at least listen to you and then tell you politely "Yeah but the Sky Fairy says in 2 Corinthians chapter 15..."

Leftists can't stand to have their opinions even questioned. Trying to question their 'facts' with counter examples(The New Deal prolonged the Great Depression, there is no correlation between gun laws and decreases in crime...) will likely end up in a name calling match and if they weren't ve-jay-jays probably a fight. Instead there will probably be some snarky post on Facebook about how stupid and unenlighted some people are and are glad they don't have to hang out with THOSE types of people.

[cynical]

Thor was the one with the Hammer.

Odin was the one who was sacrificed (to himself) by being hung from a tree for nine days and pierced with his spear, in order to gain mystical wisdom and power.

That basically makes him Jesus squared.

[Moma]

Indeed, aren't we better off with the state, for all its mistakes, doing it than having a free for all of blood feuds?

Tulpa, baby, most days you are just so ugly inside and out it just hurts the eyes and maims my soul that you be mine.

[Hugh Akston]

Actually, capital punishment is one of those issues that divides libertarians between people who are concerned about granting the State power to murder people in cold blood, especially considering how often they get it wrong, and people who think that cosmotarian pinko fags are fags.

[Sean]

I do have an intense dislike of pinkos, but I have no problem with fags of any variety, including gay fags. The comments here are causing me to think more in depth about my stance on capital punishment, however.

[Rethuglican Jesus]

I only have a problem with fags on motorcycles. Gay people, a-okay

[John]

What the State of Utah did to this guy was not murder. It is not like the grabbed him off the street and did it for fun. And as far as innocent people go, go complain about those cases not one like this one where the guy was an animal. I shouldn't have to pay taxes for him to live in prison. His victims lives mean something to.

[Hugh Akston]

1) Aside from the fact that it was committed by agents of the State, Gardner's death meets all of the criteria of Murder in the First Degree.

2) Gardner was an animal of the species H. Sapiens, same as you.

3) It is almost a clich? at this point that it costs taxpayers far more to execute a criminal than it does to imprison them for life.

4) Gardner's execution doesn't bring his victims back.

[John]

"3) It is almost a clich? at this point that it costs taxpayers far more to execute a criminal than it does to imprison them for life."

Only because assholes like you make it impossible to do in an efficient manner. That is nothing but a shell game. The fact that we don't do it efficiently, doesn't mean we shouldn't or we can't.

"4) Gardner's execution doesn't bring his victims back."

No. But it does keep him from pissing on their graves by keeping him from living a long happy life in prison. It also sends a message out to every other criminal that there are consequences to killing witnesses. This guy killed someone in a robbery. If there is no death penalty, what is the deterrent for a career criminal whose next trip to prison will be his last to not kill witnesses? How do you control someone in a prison who is doing life without parole but can never face the death penalty? You can't.

[Hugh Akston]

I know the movies make prison life look glamorous and all with the private rooms and loving shower encounters, but it really isn't as great as you seem to be making out.

And UT had the death penalty when Gardner committed his crime. It didn't seem to deter him.

[John]

Go ask Richard Speck. He did quite well and was very happy in prison. Further, even if you are correct, isn't that worse? Suppose prison is horrible. You think that it is a-ok to send someone to a life of misery with no hope of release but not okay to quickly and humanly just get it over and kill them? And I ask again, without the threat of the death penalty how do we deter people who are facing life in prison?

[Cyto]

"And I ask again, without the threat of the death penalty how do we deter people who are facing life in prison?"

Supermax?

[John]

Maybe. But think about what Supermax is. It is locking someone up in a cell and giving them no human contact. It literally drives people insane. I think that is worse than just executing people.

[BakedPenguin]

Considering the kind of human "contact" that happens in prison, I'd prefer to be sent to a Supermax prison.

[Tulpa]

I know the movies make prison life look glamorous and all with the private rooms and loving shower encounters, but it really isn't as great as you seem to be making out.

This is what disturbs me about death penalty opponents: you guys seem to continually vacillate between arguing the death penalty is too cruel and inhumane for a civilized society, and arguing that life in prison is a worse punishment anyway so they deserve that instead.

[John]

"And UT had the death penalty when Gardner committed his crime. It didn't seem to deter him."

So what? Just because it doesn't deter every person doesn't mean it doesn't deter at all.

[Steve Nash Equilibrium]

Only because assholes like you make it impossible to do in an efficient manner.

We definitely need to speed up the process. It makes the state look bad when guys are on death row for decades only to have them later exonerated.

But it does keep him from pissing on their graves by keeping him from living a long happy life in prison.

Yeah, prison is so much fun. People just can't wait to get in there.

If there is no death penalty, what is the deterrent for a career criminal whose next trip to prison will be his last to not kill witnesses?

Why would he want to kill a witness? He probably wants to be convicted so he can have that long, happy life in prison.

[John]

"Why would he want to kill a witness? He probably wants to be convicted so he can have that long, happy life in prison"

Way not to respond to a point you have no answer to. Good job.

[Steve Nash Equilibrium]

John, I was just pointing out your contradiction. You say in one sentence that life in prison isn't that bad and doesn't supply a sufficient deterrent. Then you say someone would kill a witness because he would want to avoid jail time. So which is it John? Is jail time so bad someone would be willing to kill someone to avoid it, or is it no big deal? Come up with a consistent position, and I'll respond to it.

[John]

Just because they adjust to and do well in prison, doesn't mean they wouldn't rather be on the outside and wouldn't kill to stay there.

[Tulpa]

By your logic, imprisonment of convicts is also kidnapping, and the assessment of fines as a result of conviction is extortion. So you must oppose any punishment for breaking the law.

[-]

Hugh Akston|6.18.10 @ 3:37PM|#

1) Aside from the fact that it was committed by agents of the State, Gardner's death meets all of the criteria of Murder in the First Degree.

Yo, Hugh. You stole your handle from a character in Atlas Shrugged, but your commentary rarely rises to that level. Maybe it's time for a new nick. How about...Eddie Willers? I'm being kind here. Think about it.

[Channeling Nick.]

"I shouldn't have to pay taxes for him to live in prison.

I'm okay with him being on the welfare as long as he takes a drug test.

[Warty]

This is approximately correct.

[Sidd Finch]

Is there really a debate on the status of cosmotarian pinko fags?

[Hugh Akston]

You must be new here.

[Sidd Finch]

I didn't think the cosmotarian pinko fags self-identified.

[T]

Not explicitly, but we are alert for the signs of cosmotarian pinko fagginess and other attributes associated with creeping deviationism. Ideological purity must be maintained by constant mockery, you know.

[alan]

It isn't the easy cases like this that make me oppose capital punishment, it is the cases where new evidence is discovered or prosecutors withheld information and because of procedural reasons courts do not grant stays of execution that make my blood boil.

When the FBI tested DNA samples from rape cases in the early 90's shortly after that methodology became economically feasible, they found a quarter of the samples didn't match. That is an astounding number for an offense that serious.

I have never been more angry towards a political columnist than when I read William F Buckley's, to paraphrase, 'so what if some innocent people are killed? A greater good is created by the innocent people not killed by those deterred from killing', argument. That is exactly the same kind of collectivist and European thought processes that our founders rightfully condemned as immoral as a human being is an ends and not a means.

Okay, maybe, Leonard Pitts' naked bigotry can be more riling, but I expect better from someone like WFB than an ignorant dirt bag.

[Tulpa]

It isn't the easy cases like this that make me oppose capital punishment, it is the cases where new evidence is discovered or prosecutors withheld information and because of procedural reasons courts do not grant stays of execution that make my blood boil.

Those cases make this capital punishment supporter's blood boil too. That's a separate issue.

[MWG]

"That's a separate issue."

No it's not. I'm all for the death penalty in theory, but knowing it's being carried out by a far from perfect state no doubt resulting in the death of more than a few innocent people should give one pause.

Of course in your world it's better that a thousand innocent men die than one guilty man go free.

[The Gobbler]

Currently, WFB IS an ignorant dirt bag

[alan]

I never found out the manor of his arrangements, but I imagine his coffin is a sturdy one that will keep out the worms and grime for a few hundred years.

I try to think of people in the trans-temporal sense measured by the best and most noble day of their life. His would be on one of his last NR cruises when it occurred to him he hired a bunch of stuffy old school Social Democrat fruitcakes to run his magazine and went back to his room to quaff a few drinks.

[Tonio]

I was going to flame you for sock-puppeting "WTF" at 3:27 upthread, but see that you were actually first, so you get a free bicep-punch on WTF.

Then I get to flying-wedgie you for being petulant. You sound more Belle and Sebastian than Bathory.

BTW, Whore Slut

[Tonio]

Last line above should have read:

Whore =/= Slut

Stupid squirrels.

[Tulpa]

How is there anything wrong with this?

There is no more sincere celebration of life than the killing of one who willfully takes innocent lives. Solemn my ass.

Tell me, how many times have you cheered when a bad guy got killed in a movie? Remove the log from your own eye, hypocrites.

[Hockey Guy]

About 23 years late but good riddance. Thanks ACLU types for mucking up the works.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I hope when my time comes whoever tweets it has the decency to also tell his followers what he's having for lunch.

[Kool Aid Man]

Don't worry, dude, I'm busting you outa the joint.

Oh, YEAHHH!

[Fist of Etiquette]

If only you could slake the State's thirst for vengeance as easily as you quench my thirst for colored sugar water.

[Ace Ventura]

Rah-ha-aaayyyy-yi-cist!

[SugarFree]

The stance against capital punishment in the light of the absolute right of self-ownership is one of irreparable violations by the state. A man wrongly locked up for 25 years might be able, theoretically at least, to be compensated by the state. There is no adequate compensation for having been killed.

And the blanket ban favored by many libertarians is precisely because of the innocent people who have been put to death by the state. Someone will always argue "But yeah this one, we really know this is one guilty."

Being against capital punishment is about restraining the power of the state to only being able to cause repairable harm to the individual. It's not about extending mercy to a murderer, it's about protecting ourselves from the state.

[John]

"The stance against capital punishment in the light of the absolute right of self-ownership"

If you have a "right of self ownership", then what is wrong with revenge for murder? Take the state out of it. Suppose someone kills your wife. They have clearly violated her right of "self ownership". Would you say that you can't murder them in revenge? If not, why not? And if the individual can do it, why not the state? Indeed, aren't we better off with the state, for all its mistakes, doing it than having a free for all of blood feuds?

Libertarians always talk about self ownership. But they never seem to notice or care that the murderer violated the hell out of people's self ownership.

[SugarFree]

Don't be a prick, John. Of course it's understood that the victim had their self-ownership violated.

It's not able not wanting a violation of self-ownership to go unpunished, it's about giving the state the power over life and death. Empowering the state to lock someone up forever is one thing, giving them to the power to kill is another.

[Tulpa]

The state doesn't decide to execute people. Juries do.

[SugarFree]

The jury is the state. Constituted by the state to do the state's business.

[Tulpa]

No. The whole point of a jury is that it's NOT under the control of the state. The jury is supposed to be an obstacle for the state's effort to get a conviction (and to get capital punishment approved).

Yes, yes, I know that the jury selection process etc. has corrupted this ideal. Work to change that problem, not put a band-aid on it.

[SugarFree]

Absolute bullshit. The jury is, as constituted, suppose to only consider evidence as presented. That flow of information is shaped and often corrupted by the state and its agents in every step of the process.

It's obvious that you don't care if innocent people are put to death. Because that's just a "band-aid."

[Tulpa]

Just like I hate Mexicans because I believe Border Patrol agents have the right to defend themselves against being brained while trying to do their jobs, I guess.

I think hanging out at Feministing is starting to rub off on your thought processes.

[SugarFree]

I hope one day your true love, the state, rolls over in bed and smothers you.

[cynical]

There are no cases where a jury would have favored life in prison but a judge invoked the death penalty? Or does sentencing come before verdict in your world?

[John]

If the state has the power to lock you up under horrible conditions for the rest of your life, I would say it effectively has power over your life or death. That to me seems a pretty false distinction.

[Rabbit Scribe]

Aye.

[Tulpa]

A man wrongly locked up for 25 years might be able, theoretically at least, to be compensated by the state...Being against capital punishment is about restraining the power of the state to only being able to cause repairable harm to the individual.

There is no adequate compensation for spending years 25-50 of your life in RapeLand as an innocent man either. Throw as many "might"s and "theoretically"s at it, that fact doesn't change. Criminal punishment of any kind is serious business, which is why ending the death penalty makes a pretty poor substitute for actually cleaning up our criminal justice system to prevent wrongful convictions in general.

[SugarFree]

So we keeping killing possibly innocent people until we can make sure that were aren't killing possibly innocent people?

As long as the right people are in charge everything's A-OK.

[Tulpa]

Way to not respond to my point.

[SugarFree]

I did respond to it. You just don't like my response.

[Tonio]

FTW, Sug.

[AlmightyJB]

Yes, if you keep killing innocent people then eventually you'll run out of them and then you'll only be killing guilty people from there out. Problem solved.

[MWG]

There is no way to satisfactorily "clean up our criminal justice system to prevent wrongful convictions in general" you know? being controlled by an imperfect state and all...

[?]

It has been reported that Ronnie Lee Gardner wanted his supporters to play Free Bird during the execution. That shows a lack of imagination, if not a lack of class. I would have chosen Don't Fear The Reaper, and it would have been epic.

[John]

That and had my last words be from Breaker Morant. Imagine Don't Fear the Reaper playing with the guy yelling, "Shoot straight you bastards. Don't make a mess of it".

[?]

That would have been epic.

[Hockey Guy]

"Die with your boots on" Iron Maiden for me.

[Sean]

\m/

[Hockey Guy]

One of the few old metal bands that still sound great.

[?]

Honorable mention would have to go to Alice Cooper's Killer.

[AlmightyJB]

How about Bury me with my guns on by Bobaflex?

[P Brooks]

Nothing wrong with gloating over killing a murderer who was convicted after due process. It's the greatest celebration of life that there is.

Revenge killing: it's what separates Man from the lower animals, and makes him noble.

[Pro Libertate]

Ewww.

[?]

Actually, capital punishment is one of those issues that divides libertarians between people who are concerned about granting the State power to murder people in cold blood, especially considering how often they get it wrong, and people who think that cosmotarian pinko fags are fags.

Pinkos don't jump to mind when I envision a state so weak or so moral it can't murder anybody, and the libertarian arguments against capital punishment that are libertarian arguments (rare things to hear from Libertarians?) are just shitty.

They could better?or at least more honestly?hold that violently disposing of violence-monopoly violators is the only legitimate function of government. When they don't argue that, sometimes cosmo faggotry is why they don't. And they should be mocked.

[John]

I agree. It is one thing to say that we shouldn't do it because we don't want to get one wrong. I can respect that argument. But the whole "the state has no right to murder" is just cosmo fagy bullshit. The state absolutely has a right and a duty to deal with those who take the lives of others. That is why we have the state. And if the state won't do it, people will and we will end up with vigilantism and chaos.

[P Brooks]

"Better that one hundred innocents be put to the sword than one guilty man go free."

[Vespasian]

Sounds good to me.

[AlmightyJB]

Especially if it's televised.

[Murius Hatfield McCoy]

Indeed, aren't we better off with the state, for all its mistakes, doing it than having a free for all of blood feuds?

How is that sense of security that there is an organization out there who is looking out for your interest better than even your own family with Obama in the White House, Janet at HMS, Holder at the Justice Dept working out for you? Maybe, that is not fair comparison. Maybe, your local sheriff will be eating his supper tonight while thinking, 'is that John doing alright? Should I check in on him.'

Yeah, impersonal justice, crazy, but people actually think its the real deal.

Did our blood feuds drive up the crime rates in the 70s and 80s? That seems to me to have occurred under the system you are touting.

[Tim]

Bill Munny: Hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.

The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess he had it comin'.

Bill Munny: We all got it comin', kid.

[Sean]

Deserve's got nothin' to do with it!

[Sidd Finch]

final: 0-0

[WTF]

Here we get the same arguments I've heard for at least 20 years:

Hugh Akston|6.18.10 @ 3:37PM|#

1) Aside from the fact that it was committed by agents of the State, Gardner's death meets all of the criteria of Murder in the First Degree.

Aside from the fact that there was an initial offense that this guy committed, he received due process, a jury found him guilty, he exhausted his appeals, he selected the method of his death, he knew exactly when and how it was going to happen, etc., and it was meted out as a punishment for the murders he committed. Other than that, yup, it's exactly like him jumping out of his chair in court and killing the attorney in cold blood.

In any case, this argument holds no water - the question is whether we, as society, have elected to allow death to be given as punishment for certain crimes. By your logic, putting someone in prison for life is exactly the same as that slimeball who locked the girl up in his basement and raped her every week for 18 years. I mean, she was imprisoned against her will and sexually assaulted on a regular basis, for many years. This is just like being sent to prison - the only difference being the state's involvement. So we might as well abolish imprisonment for crimes too.

2) Gardner was an animal of the species H. Sapiens, same as you.

Except that he murdered another of the species and I have not. And it seems that we do all agree that there are circumstances under which it is not only acceptable, but justifiable, to kill another human. The question is only whether this is one of those circumstances.

3) It is almost a clich? at this point that it costs taxpayers far more to execute a criminal than it does to imprison them for life.

Yes it is cliche. It also costs alot more to imprison them for life than it does to keep them in for only 5 years. Which costs more than simply letting them go after a weekend. Which costs more than not bothering to pursue them and try them at all.

The fact that a punishment is more expensive than some other option does not mean that punishment is not fit for the crime. Again, if we, as a society, have decided that death can be the appropriate punishment for certain terrible crimes, with guilt proven to an extremely high level of certitude, then that is the punishment for that crime - even if it might be expensive. We have decided life without parole is appropriate for certain crimes, too, even though that's very expensive as well.

4) Gardner's execution doesn't bring his victims back.

And imprisoning him for life without parole does? Neat trick. Terrible argument.

[SugarFree]

Well, this pinko fag cosmomotarian is going home. You guys have a nice weekend.

[Dagny T.]

As far as cocktails go, the cosmo may be deader than SJP's dead eyes, but the cosmomo sounds pink, faggy and fabulous.

[Pro Libertate]

How can I have a nice weekend when we wuz robbed?

[Vespasian]

I give you the same advice I gave Brian Sorgatz: drink heavily.

It makes the pain of having to listen to you people nattering endlessly about something so fundamentally trivial as metric football bearable. You might as well care deeply about the color of another man's socks.

[T]

See, this is why I rarely use joke handles. I'm not smart enough to switch back.

[Pro Libertate]

I was listening to you when you were a Roman emperor, but now? It ain't metric, and we're now in a state of war with Koman Coulibaly.

[Captain Awesome]

Killing another person is the ultimate externality no matter who does it. That's why the bar is supposed to be set so high to justify it. A good libertarian argument for the line that needs to be crossed is that it's the least harmful way to prevent a greater harm. Once you have the guy locked up, he's locked up.

"2) I just gave the go ahead to Corrections Director to proceed with Gardner's execution. May God grant him the mercy he I denied his victims him."

[Moliere]

"What, no Twitpics of the body?"

That's being handled by Gary Coleman's ex-wife.

[Gary Coleman's ex-wife]

They're for my scrapbook!

[Tony]

For Christ's sake... okay you guys are all in lockstep about "lower taxes, all day every day," but the state killing people for no good reason causes so much controversy?

[cynical]

I know, dude. They just shot some random fucker and got away with it. Any one of us could be next! I mean, if we indisputably murder a bunch of people.

[SIV]

What, no Twitpics of the body?

A civilized society would display the body on a gibbet.

[?]

Many of the anti-death penalty people here have no problem with the concept of self defense. Few will argue, for instance, that one hasn't the right to use deadly force against an intruder into one's home, if the situation calls for it. But somehow they draw the line when it's the state doing the killing, even when the state is defending them and western principles of justice by bringing the ultimate punishment to the worst members of our society. In a republic such as ours, the state is acting on our behalf. The people of Utah have spoken.

[Aresen]

According to this story,

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11121371

79% of Utah residents support the death penalty.

Does that mean Gardner should have been put only 79% to death?

[Isaac Bartram]

Actually, that 79% figure is pretty common plus or minus.

Countries like Canada, Britain, France and Australia did not abolish capital punishment because of popular grass roots support. They did it because politicians voted exactly contrary to their constituents' wishes.

Also in all those countries there was a long period during which the death penalty was in effect but fewer death sentences were handed down and more of those that were were commuted.

That same trend prevailed in many states before Furman in 1972. It's possible that Furman was more of an obstacle to progress towards abolition than it was a help.

[Isaac Bartram]

What I meant to add but missed was that support for the death penalty still enjoys majority, or near-majority, support in all the countries I mentioned and only a few years ago support in the seventy percent range existed.

It has only been the fact that people have seen that the sky has not fallen (the dp is an extremely weak deterrent and the murder rate has rarely risen in countries that abolished it) and the fact that parliaments have passed life without parole sentences for the most heinous offender in most of the listed countries (maybe even all, to lazy to google for exact numbers).

Even in the USA, support for the dp diminishes if life without parole is included in poll questions as a punishment.

[Ted S.]

What, no Twitpics of the body?

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Ruth Snyder yet.

The Snyder case is one of the events which inspired the James Cagney movie Picture Snatcher, which through an odd coincidence was on the TCM schedule last night. (The Cagney character ties a camera to his leg and takes a picture of a condemned murderer in the electric chair, and then has to move faster than the authorities to get back to the paper where he worked so they can print the photo.)

[iamse7en]

Boo on Reason for thinking this is shameless.

[B]

Boo fucking hoo. A guy twittered about the death of a fucking murderer.

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