Health Care Reform: "Better, cheaper, and a right. Pick any two."
Reason contributor and Independence Institute Research Associate Barry Fagin writes:
I believe health care is not a right, because it is far too important. Better, cheaper, and a right: Pick any two. I know which two I want.
Instead of a system that grants health care as an entitlement, I want a system that makes health care get better and cheaper every day. That requires less government involvement, less regulation, more markets, more competition, and more health care freedom. Ultimately, that's the best way to solve our health care "crisis."
If you disagree, that's fine, but why can't we handle our disagreement on health care like we handle disagreements on religion? You practice your faith, I'll practice mine. If you believe health care is a right, join the Church of St. Pelosi and pledge her a tenth of your income. Or just write a check to the Democratic Party, and agree only to support and use Obama and Pelosi-approved health care.
Whole thing, in the Colorado Springs Gazette, here.
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If you disagree, that's fine
Whaaaaaat?
Personally I feel if it works, dont fix it!
RT
http://www.web-tools.us.tc
Nope, sorry. Anybody who disagrees with me is wrong, and i will use every means at my disposal to force you to the right side. For your own good, of course.
Americans must be the dumbest fucking people on Earth.
You spend more money than any other western nation on health care, but you still don't cover everybody and are ranked somewhere between Latvia and Costa Rica in terms of outcomes.
You buy into all the scare tactics and lies the people making millions from denying you coverage feed you, even though you would realize its all bullshit if you would actually talk to someone from any other western country. Oh, wait, most of you don't even have passports so you remain ignorant of the rest of the world.
Which makes you my moral superior, X. Because you want to help people, and I'm content with letting them choose how to live, for better or worse.
Anyone who disagrees with me is evil, or was that unpatriotic, or a mobster, or an extremist, or Astroturf, or ??????????
You spend more money than any other western nation on health care, but you still don't cover everybody and are ranked somewhere between Latvia and Costa Rica in terms of outcomes.
Define "outcomes" in a way that is relevant to the provision of medical care, rather than lifestyle, and we can talk.
Canadian Observer: Respectfully, shut the fuck up.
Of course our health care costs more, we get what we pay for. Your bullshit argument that we're between Latvia and Costa Rica is without citation and therefore bullshit.
And fuck you for thinking you know a damn thing that goes on in the head of any American. Just because you're happy with government leading you around by the balls doesn't mean we are.
Obviously, Ska.
Shut the fuck up and go huff some maple, Canadian Dumbass.
Canadian - which is why the head of your own medical society (Canadian) said...
"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize."
I have a passport, and far from believing the "fear mongering," I'll believe YOUR experts when they say the Canadian systme is "imploding."
Big B, don't try to confuse the troll with facts! They have no relevance to such as he/she/it. It's like sending an email to a dog.
Since the troll is Canuck, all you have to do is spell words like 'color' and 'armor' without that unnecessary 'u,' and maybe admit to not enjoying hockey, and it will fade away soon enough.
Go suck some more corporate cock, you fat fucks. But at least no dirty brown people will get health care, right?
You know, we have no shortage of guns here but have enough common sense not to bring a street sweeper to an event with the Prime Minister. Your country is going down the tubes, just like the USSR circa 1985.
Hey Canadian Observer. I just finished cornholing your mother. A lot less tearing / bleeding than usual.
Oh look, a yank with sexual issues tied up in racism! What a surprise!
THE URKOBOLD SEES YOU, EDWARD. AND IS HUMMING A LITTLE TUNE.
British, bitch.
You know what's really crazy? People here don't go bankrupt paying for a basic human right.
"Go suck some more corporate cock, you fat fucks. But at least no dirty brown people will get health care, right?"
That's hysterical. My home town is 64% black and there's plenty of health care you syrup swilling cock-knocker.
"You know, we have no shortage of guns here but have enough common sense not to bring a street sweeper to an event with the Prime Minister."
That's probably because you wouldn't have the balls. Besides, our laws actually ALLOW these people to bring the guns. What about yours komrade?
"Your country is going down the tubes, just like the USSR circa 1985."
On this, we agree. What you're canuk ass can't grasp is that Russia had all the policies we're trying to stop. Of course, that would require thinking to realize this, which might be to difficult for you.
Canadian - no, you're right, they don't. Instead, their cancer becomes incurable while awaiting treatment that their country can't afford.
That said, I'm taking X's advice here on out.
Confuzed Observer strikes again!
Yup, you're right Tomcat. The USSR was going bankrupt trying to mantain a war machine to hold together its world-wide Empire at a time its economy was falling apart, and its elites were desperatley trying to convince their sheep that the USSR was #1 even though it wasn't. Very similar.
Perobably will meet a similar end, too.
"You know what's really crazy? People here don't go bankrupt paying for a basic human right."
You know what's really crazy? Our indigenous folks don't huff gasoline at the age of six.
Yeah, who cares if I can get medical treatment without going bankrupt? What's REALLY important is my right to brandish an assault rifle at a political event!
No wonder you tools elected Bush. Dumbest fucking people on earth.
I took a shit in Canada once. Smelled like...victory.
Puck-slapping Hoser, when America goes down, we're taking our hat with us. Just so you know.
Yep...while trying to maintain a communist society where everything was provided such as...oh, I don't know...health care?
Understand the economy of the Soviets as a whole before you try to act like you actually know something dipshit.
Wasn't that whole "Medical bills causing bankruptcies" thing discredited because the study only showed that people who file for bankruptcy have medical bills, not that the medical bills were causing them to file for bankruptcy?
"Yeah, who cares if I can get medical treatment without going bankrupt"
Man up and die, Canadian Observer, man up and die.
"Canadian Observer"
Always an observer, never a player.
Only a yankee dipshit would confuse Stalinism with with something every civilized industrial country provides to its citizens (except for one, they're too busy building bombs and downing thickburgers yammering on about their "freedom" to go bankrupt when they get cancer and are denied coverage.)
"No wonder you tools elected Bush. Dumbest fucking people on earth."
That's nothing. Right after that, we elected Obama!
Ok, he insulted Thickburgers. It's time for war.
(except for one, they're too busy building bombs and downing thickburgers yammering on about their "freedom" to go bankrupt when they get cancer and are denied coverage.)
I LOL'd.
Blow me, bitch.
"Yeah, who cares if I can get medical treatment without going bankrupt? What's REALLY important is my right to brandish an assault rifle at a political event!"
Everyone I know who's EVER filed bankruptcy has done so because of a lot of factors, and medical bills were rarely ever a factor. Studies back this up syrup-dick.
And one has little to do with the other in regards to carrying a weapon to events. However, unlike you, we actually fight for our rights.
And health care isn't a right no matter how you try and argue it.
"No wonder you tools elected Bush. Dumbest fucking people on earth."
Right. We all must have voted for Bush. Oh wait...I didn't. EVER.
What a fucking tool.
We also have a very well-regulated financial sector so the recession didn't hurt as as much, and in fact its already ended here and were returning to growth.
Down in the land of the fat, stupid, crazy and armed, not so much, huh?
Hey Canadian: We yammer about freedoms, but you know what? We still have a few, so go eat a dick and have a nice day 😀
The quality of the trolls around here has been declining of late. This one's kind of fun, though, like a little punching bag full of incoherent rage and maple syrup.
Tomcat, I have the "right" to get drunk this very moment, it doesn't mean I have to exercise it.
I'm not going to argue that bankruptcy is a good thing. Its difficult to go through and lord knows it ruins your credit for 7 or so years.
But can someone explain to me why its being made out to be a "boogie man" in this health care debate.
I don't think anyone would argue that its a nice, healthy process, but for god's sake, you go in with huge debt, and come out with damaged credit and low debt.
Its not exactly death.
No, but if you ever felt that right threatened, would you fight for it?
I sure as hell would, and I don't even drink anymore.
"Tomcat, I have the "right" to get drunk this very moment, it doesn't mean I have to exercise it."
Well, until your Health Care Bureaucrat says it's not ideal for you to drink anymore and will bar you from any further medical treatment.
But B, nothing unpleasant should happen to anyone EVER! And that's the government's job!
Canadian? I doubt it.
A French guest who was staying in a hotel in Edmonton phoned room service for some pepper. "Black pepper, or white pepper?" asked the concierge.
"Toilette pepper!"
An American, a Scot and a Canuk were in a terrible car accident. They were all brought to the same emergency room, but all three of them died before they arrived. Just as they were about to put the toe tag on the American, he stirred and opened his eyes. Astonished, the doctors and nurses present asked him what happened.
"Well," said the American, "I remember the crash, and then there was a beautiful light, and then the Canadian and the Scot and I were standing at the gates of heaven. St. Peter approached us and said that we were all too young to die, and that for a donation of $100, we could return to the earth."
He continued, " So of course, I pulled out my wallet and gave him the $100, and the next thing I knew I was back here."
"That's amazing!" said one of the doctors, "But what happened to the other two?"
"Last I saw them," replied the American, "the Scot was haggling over the price and the Canadian was waiting for the government to pay for his."
Canute Absurder:
Shhhhh. The grownups are talking.
What do urine samples and Canadian beer have in common?
The taste.
Given the option of getting cancer treatments today and paying myself and going bankrupt (alleged US system for some) and waiting until it becomes incurable AND THEN seeing specialist (Canadian system) all while bankrupting the nation, well, I can't see how the first is worse.
And frankly, its that kind of logic that makes people angry. And when their wishes are ignored in the bailout of GM and the stimulus give away, damn right they'll take guns to debates about this type of option.
WWJGD, please show where that has happened, ever, under the Canadian health care system.
Again, like most Americans, you probably don't have a passport and have never traveled. Not surprising, since most Americans don't have the time since they're the only western country without gauranteed paid vacation from the government. Europeans and Canadians get 4 weeks paid vacation on average. Americans? Eight days. The only other wealthy country that low is Japan.
Well, until your Health Care Bureaucrat says it's not ideal for you to drink anymore and will bar you from any further medical treatment.
If they instituted Prohibition, Canada would clear out faster than a strip club on chili night.
The whole idea that you can have a right to have other people buy you things seems pretty wrong to me. Whether or not having government provided healthcare is a good idea, it sure as fuck is not a right beyond the right to get any healthcare which you can afford and which someone is willing to provide to you.
I know I'm falling into the no no X warned me about, but seriously. 8 days is essentially 2 weeks. Half as many as you guys get.
We get 3 total at my job, and despite constant reminders to take them, and encouragement about doing so and a system in place to cover the work you'd miss, I'd say half my coworkers don't take all their days.
America is different than Canada, so what?
And I thought Canadians were supposed to be polite...
Having resided in Canada my entire life, I can say with confidence that "Observer" is a pretty poor representative.
And I happen to disagree with almost everything he/she's written.
Your largest fallacy in your invalid argument, O Kanada, is the misguided notion that health care is a "right". As a practitioner,I respectfully disagree; it is a personal responsibility. I'll take freedom with responsibility over a nanny state anytime.
STFU and drink a Moosehead or 12, unless you you need a liver transplant 🙂 Try getting that in Kanada Kare.
gauranteed paid vacation from the government
I'm starting to feel really bad for our visitor from the frozen North.
This notion of positive rights is both illogical and dangerous.
It's illogical because it assumes the existence of an apparatus to provide such "rights." What if people choose not to provide such services? Price controls often lead to such an outcome. To speak of one's rights being violated by an absence makes no sense.
And it's dangerous because it essentially enslaves everyone else to such needs -- it says if you're a doctor, you must treat someone not because they are offering you compensation for your valuable service but because by failing to treat them you violate their rights.
Charity is fine, but coercive utopianism never works out well for anyone.
Canadian, you're welcome for the subsidized prescription drugs, by the way. It would be nicer if you people weren't too stupid to invent your own new medicines and too poor to pay what real research costs, but it's nice that you've managed to at least scrounge up enough cash to pay for marginal costs of production.
What's that, you say? You never expressed gratitude, just a stream of random incoherent attempts at insults, like a yapping dog? Don't worry about it, eh? Just because an annoying mutt can't comprehend how the food gets in the can doesn't mean his betters won't keep feeding him.
"Again, like most Americans, you probably don't have a passport and have never traveled."
You know, he's right. I'm gonna get me a passport and then go visit Yemen. It'll be great!
"Europeans and Canadians get 4 weeks paid vacation on average. Americans? Eight days."
I get eight weeks. And my healthcare IS free. My employer pays for it.
Europeans and Canadians get 4 weeks paid vacation on average. Americans? Eight days. The only other wealthy country that low is Japan.
I get 4 weeks of vacation at my job, even though I rarely use it all.
How did I do that? Oh right, I EARNED it, you pale, pasty, stupid fuck.
Anon, are you really so dumb thay you think America is the only country that invents new prescription drugs? Really?
Ever heard of...I don't know...BEYER? You know, from ooga-boogah SOCIALIST Germany?
Our northern friend is right. Let's pay for more health care for our poor using the money we save removing the military protection we give to Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc.
Defend Canada, instead of wasting your brave lads lives helping the U.S. kick around some poor brown people in Afghanistan.
Haven't been to Canada a few times (and wanting to live there in the sense that my dream job is in Canada), I would like to say that--like Kentucky and bourbon--what beer they let out of the country is wildly inferior to the beer they keep for themselves.
Anon, are you really so dumb thay you think America is the only country that invents new prescription drugs? Really?
We're the only place thay pays for them, so we're the only reason they get invented.
The top 5 research hospitals in the U.S. do more studies than any other entire country.
Haven't been to Canada
Having been...
Some much for my public education.
"WWJGD, please show where that has happened, ever, under the Canadian health care system.
Again, like most Americans, you probably don't have a passport and have never traveled. Not surprising, since most Americans don't have the time since they're the only western country without gauranteed paid vacation from the government. Europeans and Canadians get 4 weeks paid vacation on average. Americans? Eight days. The only other wealthy country that low is Japan."
First, I was making a joke.
Second, despite being rather poor, I've managed two European trips to about 7 different countries. On an aside, the Canadians customs were the rudest people I've dealt with in travel. I'd rather deal with the Czech or Germans.
Third, shut up, moose-fucker.
And what does the amount of vacation time we get have to do with health care? Oh yeah, nothing.
I guess Canadians object to having to earn anything. Based on the Observer here, I suspect his kind of folks expect shit to just be provided.
Yeah, who cares if I can get medical treatment without going bankrupt?
Assuming you don't die during the six-month wait for treatment or are misdiagnosed due to the lack of diagnostics all socialized medical systems suffer from.
We have about five times as many MRIs per capita in the U.S.
BEER THREAD HIJACK
Sweet'n'Low, i hear the same thing is true of Australian beer. Ordering a Foster's in Sydney is apparently about as no-class-having of an activity as choosing to drink Natural Light over here.
Continued Absconder seems a bit confused on what is a "right."
A right is something that you make no demands on anyone in order to enjoy. You know, a right to free speech doesn't require anyone to build you a soapbox on which to stand or a megaphone from which to amplify your ignorant and uninformed rants.
If you have to make a demand on someone to provide you with the means to exercise your right, it is not a right, it is an entitlement.
I have a right to eat, as do you. You do not, however, have the right to steal food from a grocery store in order to provide yourself with food. Do you understand this distinction my fact-starved friend?
"Anon, are you really so dumb thay you think America is the only country that invents new prescription drugs? Really?
Ever heard of...I don't know...BEYER? You know, from ooga-boogah SOCIALIST Germany?"
I believe the original point was that Canadians can't invent prescription drugs. That you countered with Germany supports the original point.
By the way, once they ruin healthcare, what new nebulous positive right with leftists invent out of thin air?
I vote: The right to "clean" energy.
Pelosi can get about repealing the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Yeah, MRIs that aren't even needed half the time, but are run anyway so CEOs can make more money. You're touting the numnber of unnecessary tests you do as proof that the system works? Tool.
Successful troll was successful. Now he's just sinking into a pit of spelling errors and spittle.
"Yeah, MRIs that aren't even needed half the time, but are run anyway so CEOs can make more money. You're touting the numnber of unnecessary tests you do as proof that the system works? Tool."
Prove they're unnecessary. Come on. I dare ya.
By the way, once they ruin healthcare, what new nebulous positive right with leftists invent out of thin air?
I'm guessing that first on their agenda is the right to only speak non-hateful speech. You know, when you can only say things that don't conflict with the state's positions and agendas.
Sweet'n'Low, i hear the same thing is true of Australian beer. Ordering a Foster's in Sydney is apparently about as no-class-having of an activity as choosing to drink Natural Light over here.
I too have heard this from Ozzies and Kiwis.
But since I've never been there I'm not supposed to have an opinion of anything that goes on in another country, unless I'm Canadian apparently.
Fun fact about America: we also do about twice as many organ transplants as the rest of the civilized world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplant#Demographics
Even after the fall of Communism, many people still don't seem to grasp the essential truth that if you call something a "right" and have the government provide it, you get less of it at poorer quality. Food, clothing, medical care...it doesn't matter. "To each according to his need" is a failed paradigm that just leaves more people in worse need.
I think maybe a moose ate the part of Canuck Oddity's brain that is responsible for understanding facts and typing citations into a computer.
Prove they're unnecessary. Come on. I dare ya.
Concocted Abuser said they were unnecessary. What more proof do you need?
Yeah, MRIs that aren't even needed half the time,
The essence of a medical test is that you don't know for sure whether it's needed until you do the test.
But hey, it's only your life, right?
Anyway I'm leaving now. Have fun when your health insurance company denies your cancer treatment coverage so some corporate tool can buy a new Lexus with the bonus he got for denying you coverage!
I had an unnecessary MRI once. They thought I had an unruptured brain aneurysm. I didn't. The test was a total waste. If I had just waited months to confirm that I wasn't going to die any minute, all that money could have been saved.
Goodbye, asshole! Watch out for ice leopards!
And you know they are not needed how? It should also be noted that most of your hospitals in Kanada don't even have MRIs and PET scan capabilities. I'm glad your governemnt is more fiscal than ours, but your benevolent goverment also doesn't have the means to purchase more of these units, which admittedly are G-d awful expensive. But then you have a MUCH smaller population to apply your gov's usurious tax rates; you can only soak your poulation so much. So essentially you are arguing because your system is unable to DX disease, there must be no problem.
Ignorance is bliss.
And my own counsel I will keep as to which proceduares would be deemed "uneccessary".
"Anyway I'm leaving now. Have fun when your health insurance company denies your cancer treatment coverage so some corporate tool can buy a new Lexus with the bonus he got for denying you coverage!"
Again with that old straw man. It's a classic too, because I've known a lot of cancer patients through the years, and even worked at the local cancer clinic a few years back. Not a single one I had talked to ever had their insurance canceled or any coverage denied.
So thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you, but we don't like you enough to let you actually have them so go fuck a moose or something instead 😉
BTW, TallDave, if anyone resembles the USSR its the modern day USA. A corrupt, dying, grubby superpower trying desperatley to hide its internal decay by starting wars all over the globe that will eventually bankrupt it. Its going to be nasty when you meet the exact same end in about ten years time.
I'm not sure how many people realize America is also much wealthier than Canada or Europe, about 30% so on a PPP per capita GDP basis. Those long vacations cost a lot of productivity.
There ain't no free vacation.
It's interesting how and where this shows up. If you read the Harry Potter (and you did, admit it) Privet Drive is supposed to be a relatively wealthy area, yet no one has air conditioning. This was something only American readers found odd.
Oh, and I paid for the MRI out-of-pocket. I didn't have health insurance then. I was only working part-time. And somehow I still got an MRI within 45 minutes of my doctor ordering one. In a city with the whooping population of 55K. In the 4th poorest state in the US.
CO,
You may want to compare the % of GDP spent on the military by the USA and USSR respectively. We bankrupted them because they had a failed economic system and we had a model that has created the highest standard of living in history.
For some more perspective, here's this: a U.S. Navy carrier group could defeat the combined forces of any other nation by itself. We have ten.
Sweet'n'Low, that still means you're an oppressed inhabitant of an unenlightened society. In a truly civilized nation, you wouldn't have to pay for an MRI, on the off chance that one could actually be found.
The hilarious thing: It's been 17 years since a Canadian team won the Stanley Cup.
I credit the U.S. health care system.
But TallDave, you don't understand. We're going to collapse on ourselves in ten years because we can actually defend ourselves from anyone on Earth all by our lonesome.
Now, I'll be the first to disagree with those who want to start wars, but CO doesn't realize that having a strong military doesn't automatically mean we're following in the Soviet's flawed economic ideology. In fact, it's a sign of our wealth. We've built up military that is second to none, our citizens are wealthier, and contrary to popular opinions by dipshits north of the border, people can GET health care if they need it.
Oh yeah...we're bound for collapse any day now. 😉
And my healthcare IS free. My employer pays for it.
*sighs, bangs head on desk*
The Barbarian Invasions is a nice little flick.
Lord it's thick with anti-reform propaganda in here. Sure America has a dismally bad health care system relative to even some very minor economies. But... but waiting lines! We invent stuff!
How about I dunno, some facts?
How about shut the fuck up, Tony?
I managed to see a doctor on a regular basis for 8 years for the treatment of diabetes and insulin resistance without going bankrupt or resorting to free clinics. Bought all my drugs out of pocket. I was even paying off student loans through half of that. My father was unemployed and my mother made about 30K a year.
I worked and didn't spend my money on stupid shit. Imagine that.
A funnier fact - The Columbus Blue Jackets will win the Cup before Toronto even gets another sniff.
Hahahahahahah! Canadian tears taste maple-ly.
Suge, this is america. It is my right to spend my money, and all the credit I can get, on stupid shit I don't need.
I worked and didn't spend my money on stupid shit.
But you're blessed with them smartness genes, Suge. Not like the little people.
How about I dunno, some facts?
Let us know when you find some, Tony.
How about I dunno, some facts?
OK, Tony. You first, since you're the one who wants to increase the state's role in health care.
Be sure to include citations.
Suge, but seriously. I wish I could see statistics showing the numbers on people without healthinsurance coverage. You know, things like income and credit card debt and home and car loans. I suspect that a lot of the un/underinsured make plenty of money and just suck at the household budgeting.
Shut the fuck up, Tony.
But you're blessed with them smartness genes, Suge.
And that's why you must be punitively taxed in order to buy medical care for people who prefer to spend their money on Mickey D's, rims, and a plasma tv.
To Canadian Observers credit, his country did come up with a way to save us from zombies.
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/21/zombie
I suspect that a lot of the un/underinsured make plenty of money and just suck at the household budgeting.
Precisely. In my experience, that's the single biggest factor. I blame public education.
Keep in mind, we live in a country so wealthy that poor people can afford the calories to become morbidly obese (which, in turn, also contributes to health care issues).
And that's why you must be punitively taxed in order to buy medical care for people who prefer to spend their money on Mickey D's, rims, and a plasma tv.
And who's the smart one then? Eh? Eh?
I suspect that a lot of the un/underinsured make plenty of money and just suck at the household budgeting.
Actually, a significant chunk of those people are (gasp!) uninsured precisely because they understand household budgeting, and realize they can pay for medical care out-of-pocket more cheaply than by paying a big monthly insurance premium.
Man... That Canuck was funny... Incidentally, the profit margins of the health insurance are not all that high (speaking to the 2-3 people trolling this site who aren't aware of that). They rank #86 on this list, behind even candy-makers...
I visited Niagara Falls last summer. The hotel I stayed in was in Canada. Once while waiting on the elevator, I happened to strike up a conversation with one of the hotel employees. It turned out his wife had recently given birth to their first child.
"I love the health care system here, I didn't have to pay for anything." he says.
I asked, "So how much do you pay in taxes?"
"20%" he answered "But I couldn't have paid for the hospital on my own, it's so hard to save."
He did go on to tell me that he in fact DID have to pay for some pre-birth medical visits and check-ups.
Also when I received the check for dinner later that evening, there was something called a "Provincial tax" that was something like 14%.
So, if you live under the Canadian "free" health-care plan, the government takes 20% of your income, charges you a sales tax and a 14% provincial tax on your purchases AND you still are required to pay for some medical care out-of-pocket!!!
I missed the part where this was a better option...
You know, we have no shortage of guns here but have enough common sense not to bring a street sweeper to an event with the Prime Minister.
If I have the right to open carry on private property, why should I refrain from doing so because some asshole politician is next door?
He can go fuck himself if he doesn't like it.
Canadian Observer thinks that you shouldn't exercise any of your rights if it might make a politician feel unhappy. Demonstrating once again the bravery and courage of his race.
You know what's really crazy? People here don't go bankrupt paying for a basic human right.
To Canadian Observer, if a middle class person doesn't want to pay for his own health care, that's noble.
If I don't want to pay for his health care, I'm selfish.
So to review:
Demand that others pay for your health care, if paying yourself might impact your middle class lifestyle: unselfish.
Not wanting to pay for or subsidize someone else's health care, if they currently have more disposable income than me: selfish.
P Brooks, I understand that as well. My last job offered BC/BS for just over 1000 dollars a month with $30 co-pays and $1000/year deductible per person. Not worth what they charged. Interestingly, that same company in 2001 offered BC/BS for $270 a month with $5 c-pay and no deductible.
I visited Niagara Falls last summer
I was watching Veggie Tales recently (shut up, i have a five-year-old) and the main characters received word that a group of rogue Canadians was scheming to take over both sides of Niagara Falls.
"But why?" said the cucumber. "They already HAVE the good side!"
OK carry on
P Brooks, I understand that as well. My last job offered BC/BS for just over 1000 dollars a month with $30 co-pays and $1000/year deductible per person. Not worth what they charged.
Under Obamacare, you will not be allowed to say that it's not worth it. You will be forced to participate in a plan.
All of the plans will be required to use community-based pricing, so BY DEFINITION for most people the insurance will not be "worth it" - but you will be forced to pay in anyway or pay a fine / tax.
Any healthy person who buys health insurance that is community priced is by definition making an economically unsound decision. But you will not be allowed to make an economically sound decision under Obamacare.
I suspect that a lot of the un/underinsured make plenty of money and just suck at the household budgeting.
I imagine that's a big part of it. I live well on runny French cheeses and Belgian beer now, but I'm only a generation away from the trashiest of white trash on my Dad's side and non-criminal rural poor on my Mom's. Dad ran from it as well as he could, and let me have only enough contact with that side of the family to learn that I never wanted to live like that.
The "noble" poor, "deserving" poor are a small fraction of poor people. There are hard-luck cases and people that shit just happens to. I'm fine funding a safety net for those people. Hell, I'd be fine spending exactly what we spend now on them if it was just on them alone.
But the vast majority of poor people are just fuck-ups. They spit in the face of every opportunity that presents itself. They ignore the free schooling they get, they ignore or take advantage the basic good nature that most people possess. They refuse to think about the future at all, fantasizing about the lottery or some other get-rich-quick stupidity. They buy cars/houses/boats/ATV/TVs/and have kids they cannot afford. They act like they are allergic to hard work, and end up with manual labor jobs that don't care if they show up high that are infinitely "harder" than sitting behind a desk.
They think, on a very fundamental level, that they are owed things that they aren't not owed. This is why so many are--directly or indirectly--thieves. I've never met one of them that could understand that hard work (not even that hard in most cases, results in "wealth" not some sort of cosmic lottery they just missed out on.
Vast swaths of the poor are poor for reasons that rest directly on their shoulders. I refuse to pay for their bad decisions.
Dennis Miller on O'Reilly, "I love helping the helpless but I'm tired of helping the clueless."
The "noble" poor, "deserving" poor are a small fraction of poor people. There are hard-luck cases and people that shit just happens to. I'm fine funding a safety net for those people. Hell, I'd be fine spending exactly what we spend now on them if it was just on them alone.
Back in my supermarket days, there was a meat cutter who was telling me at break one day about how he had just finished paying off his wife's $25,000 hospital bill, back from when he didn't have insurance. I don't recall how long it took him, but it was X number of years and he was very proud that he had finally satisfied his debt.
He wasn't educated, but this man was wise.
@ Canadian Observer
Speaking as an Canadian currently living in the USA, go fuck yourself. And you can take your free healthcare and shove that up your ass as well. One of the proudest days of my life will be when I become a naturalized US citizen, and finally being able to burn my Canadian passport will be pretty close. Healthcare is a tool by which the governing classes in Canada keep the serfs in line - it's nothing more than a scam to prevent people from fleeing the little Democratic People's Republic of Northern Canuckistan.
Every system in the world has a mix of private and public - and even public systems have some mixture of co-pays and user fees. Canada, North Korea, and Cuba are the only places ob earth with a straight up single payer system.Get a clue, pinko.
SF - My Dad's side of the family contains the elements you described as well. I have cousins who've been in prison, most of my female cousins on that side of the family were preggers by 15...
A few have sorted out their shit by now, mostly (though saddled with many burdens from mistakes past which will prevent them from ever managing a really decent life), but some of them continue to leech off my grandmother and expect other people to clean up their bad decisions.
It's worth looking at from time to time to remind myself of why it's important to make good choices.
mark, I think Taiwan is on that list as well. They are currently paying for it with borrowed money as it isn't self sustaining.
Ya know what... I don't even want to talk about Health Care anymore.
How 'bout last night's "True Blood"?? Fucking cliffhanger of all cliffhangers, no?
A lot of the folks who believe in the nobleness of poverty don't know many poor people.
(And I think I must have some of the same relatives as Suge and Sean.)
True Blood? Naw. But I did finally watch the last episode of Battlestar last night.
Canadian Observer,
Those test we did in February just came back. I'm afraid is not good. We'll need to operate soon. How does next May sound?
Wait....there's a new waitress at Merlotte's?
A lot of the folks who believe in the nobleness of poverty don't know many poor people.
These are most likely the same people who decry primitive ethnic tribes losing the "cultural heritage" by adopting "Western" ideas like electricity and modern medicine.
How else will they ever be able to go on vacation to distant lands and see quaint villages filled with half-naked natives that haven't changed in thousands of years?
Here's what your healthcare dollars will be going:
$10B aimed at union retirees
Provision called welfare by some, not enough by others
WASHINGTON -- Antilabor forces say it's welfare for the UAW and Democrats' union allies. Labor supporters say it falls short of what's needed as tens of thousands of union members are pushed into early retirement as employers cut back health care coverage.
They're both talking about a $10-billion provision tucked deep inside thousands of pages of health care overhaul bills that could help the UAW's retiree health-care plan and other union-backed plans.
It would see the government -- at least temporarily -- pay 80 cents on the dollar to corporate and union insurance plans for claims between $15,000 and $90,000 for retirees age 55 to 64.
http://www.freep.com/article/20090824/BUSINESS01/908240321/1318/-10B-aimed-at-union-retirees
You buncha zealots here have forced me to look at my own experiences with the soc sec administration and wonder what a national healthcare system would look like. I still believe that everyone should have health insurance. (at least catastrophic coverage) I don't think a government run plan is the way to go.
Oh yeah, having that ending with an episode 10 minutes shorter than every other episode only makes it tougher.
"Vast swaths of the poor are poor for reasons that rest directly on their shoulders. I refuse to pay for their bad decisions."
The "deserving poor": a fav of the asshole variety of libertarian. Nothing makes these guys angrier than the thought that the "deserving poor" might not get what's "coming to them..."
Pro Libertate | August 24, 2009, 11:47am | #
Canadian? I doubt it.
What gave it away? The lack of passive aggression?
It's good ol' Edward, God bless that twat.
Unfortunately Citizen, I know more than enough middle class people who act the same way but are where they are merely because they have higher paying jobs and had a better starting point. Those are people who will never break out of mediocrity though...
But seriously, you should be watching True Blood if you haven't been.
"They buy cars/houses/boats/ATV/TVs/and have kids they cannot afford."
There is a homeless couple with four kids that begs on our main drag. White trash 100%. Their shitty little cardboard sign say please help we have 4 children. It takes every bit of self-control to keep from shout at them to stop having fucking kids.
They're there all day, everyday. They could be a two income family and get government support on top of that, but they are just too damn stupid and lazy.
These same assholes are of course "deserving" of everything they have. They popped out of the womb working double shifts and imbued with good sense.
The whole universal healthcare debate is really odd to me. Does anyone have any solid numbers on how many people a. aren't covered by Medicaid, Medicare, or any of the other existing government benefits; but also b. still cannot afford health insurance?
How 'bout last night's "True Blood"?? Fucking cliffhanger of all cliffhangers, no?
I wouldn't say that, but it was an annoying fucking place to end.
And how fucked up was everyone that Jason Stackhouse outsmarted them? More or less anyway?
WTF
What should be done about their kids? Fuck em for choosing to come out of white trash vaginas?
I'm hesitant myself about covering every fool adult. But something like SCHIP is imo a good idea.
"How 'bout last night's "True Blood"?? Fucking cliffhanger of all cliffhangers, no?"
No.
Charles
Do you not think it odd for people opposing government health care to bring up as an argument that Medicare/aid covers most poor people?
It's not the health care fairy that runs those two programs...
Who Shot JR... Psh. A Dallas reference, really?
Meh.
Anyway, Tom - Agreed. Jason outsmarting anyone is troubling.
Hey MNG,
Can I hit you up for a solid fifty? I swear I'll top it up back to you with a cool seventy five by next week.
"What should be done about their kids? Fuck em for choosing to come out of white trash vaginas?"
They should be taken from the parents and put in foster homes.
No kid should spend their childhood begging in public all day, every day.
MNG,
I'm talking about the debate over health care reform, the way it's being framed. If poor people can get government care, and everyone else can afford to buy it, who are we talking about? Why is it so important that we expand government care in order to cover people who can afford insurance but don't buy it?
I am personally okay with government providing insurance directly or indirectly for very poor people and the elderly, which I think some other libertarians disagree with (which is fine).
MNG,
I know you want in on this deal I got on the side. Make it or break it, bay.
"Who Shot JR... Psh. A Dallas reference, really?
Meh."
I was traveling cross country the night that episode ran (so I couldn't see it). From coast to coast that's all anyone was talking about.
True Blood? Just heard about it here today.
MNG,
Where da money, chief?
MNG,
All of your years of voluntary contributions and I'm just a week away from retirement. At forty-seven, and a full pension! Could not have done it without you. Thanks for your no complaints attitude.
@ Brother Ben
How bad is Taiwan? Talking about healthcare with my former countrymen was infuriating. Most places - even the USA - have a mixture of public and private. Only in Canada, is there a system that is entirely free because, as the dumb fucks like to say, "If you allow private hospitals there will be one system for the poor and one for the rich". The whole debate in Canada is retarded, on so many different levels. Seeing people on this thread tear that dumb shit a new asshole warmed the cockles of my cold, Canadian heart.
Ok, and how many TV/media options were there in the late 80s again?
Anyway, I was hyperbolizing. Surely there are better cliffhangers, but for a mid-season episode? Yeah.
On that one, I'll agree with you Sean. It was pretty good as midseason cliffhangers go.
The explaination will probably be a little disappointing though 😉
What I'm kinda curious about is whether or not Hoyt will be pissed at Jessica, or whether or not he'll just be like... Meh... Good riddance 😛
I am in favor of a Canadian model.
http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:NGAmLw32DRcTrM:http://www.webwombat.com.au/lifestyle/fashion_beauty/images/ghauri3.JPG
I think the government should pay for CATASTROPHIC health insurance. I.E., the emergency room as long as we force hospitals to take people in the ER. It would end up costing us less in the long run. That should be all, though. No outpatient care or gold-plated government plan.
but some of them continue to leech off my grandmother and expect other people to clean up their bad decisions
At my grandmother's funeral, some cousins collapsed in front of her coffin, wailing. They had all dumped kids off at Grandma's for her to raise. I was literally the only grandchild she didn't raise at some point in their childhood. My mom leaned over and said, "I've never seen this many people so upset that their babysitter died."
And even Hayek said the government could provide healthcare on that level (basic, catastrophic health insurance) and for old people without a danger to liberty.
That should be all, though. No outpatient care or gold-plated government plan.
Sure. That'll last about 10 minutes before morphing into the One True Health Care Way.
And even Hayek said the government could provide healthcare on that level (basic, catastrophic health insurance) and for old people without a danger to liberty.
We do. It's called Medicare and Medicaid.
And Hayek was wrong. The danger was that leftists would use them as a stalking horse to expand the control of health care to everyone. Exhibit Fucking A.
"Sure That'll last lasted about 10 minutes..."
FTFY
SF, I'm talking about those middle class people who spend money on a Mustang instead of health insurance, and then demand to be treated at the ER when their Mustang gets t-boned by a Hummer. They aren't covered by Medicaid. We pay for them, anyway, itd be cheaper just to insure them for ER treatment.
"What I'm kinda curious about is whether or not Hoyt will be pissed at Jessica, or whether or not he'll just be like... Meh... Good riddance :P"
I know where I'd stand on that one. I'd poke my pecker in Jessica, then help hide the body 😀
"We pay for them, anyway, itd be cheaper just to insure them for ER treatment."
Actually, wouldn't it be cheaper to...you know...make them pay for thier own shit?
Then they'd sit out on the curb near the hospital bleeding to death because they can't afford treatment for their auto wreck.
All I'm saying is that if you force ERs to tale everybody (nobody is seriously suggesting changing that law) you may as well insure them.
Name one instance when that's happened?
Injuries from car wrecks are covered by auto insurance. They are not a health insurance issue.
It doesn't, Tomcat, cause we have a law saying they have to take them in for treatment. When they can't afford it, the cost is passed onto us. It is cheaper to pay for the insurance than it is for us to pay for their treatments after the fact.
No need to help hide the body... Vampires are good at that. Bill lives next to a cemetery anyway.
Ok, Fluffy, someone falls of a ladder and breaks their neck while trying to paint their house.
And, I'm not talking about changing that. But making them pay their debts is hardly a radical concept. Make their asses pay for their own debts, so you and I won't have to pay for them. It's not a tricky concept after all.
Ben - I'm trying my best to NOT talk about health care, cause I've done it ad infinitum for weeks (and blogged about it several times here)... But it would be cheaper to focus 100% of our efforts on drastically increasing the supply of all medical care - more doctors, more hospitals, more drug manufacturers, more everything... Until we do that (and only the market is capable of such a thing), we are just rearranging deck chairs.
And having people pay their own way is crucial to that as well - I personally favor a combination of HSAs and catastrophic insurance a la John Mackey. But doctors are ethically bound to treat anyone who's in need of help by the Hippocratic oath, so I am struggling to find a situation where doctors are just going to let anyone sit on the curb bleeding to death. Law or not.
PS: Robert Higgs on welfare states
I know, Sean, they would tret them even without a law. But my point is, we pay for the ER visits of middle class people who make the dumbass decision to spend their money on a plasma instead of health insurance (add illegal immigrants to that, too) anyway, and I'd like to do it in a cheaper and more rational way.
All I'm saying is that if you force ERs to tale everybody (nobody is seriously suggesting changing that law) you may as well insure them.
Why aren't they suggesting that? The law compelling emergency rooms to accept patients who can't pay dates back only to 1985. Was there an epidemic of people bleeding to death on hospital lawns outside ER's in 1984 that you know of? I was around in 1984 and don't remember one.
That doesn't mean, however, we start paying for their boner pills, hair transplants, and sex change operations. Fuck that. Life threatening emergencies only!
Ok, Fluffy, someone falls of a ladder and breaks their neck while trying to paint their house.
Not a very smart thing to do if you have no insurance, for whatever reason. Sounds like that person knowingly assumed the risk.
I *have* insurance and I won't get up on a ladder to do anything on my house if I can help. I pay people to do that for me, or find alternate methods for accomplishing the task, precisely because of the risk.
"The whole universal healthcare debate is really odd to me. Does anyone have any solid numbers on how many people a. aren't covered by Medicaid, Medicare, or any of the other existing government benefits; but also b. still cannot afford health insurance?"
According to the US Census Bureau, there were 45.7 millian people without health insurance in 2007.
Almost 18 million of the uninsured made over $50,000 a year.
Ten million of the uninsured aren't US citizens.
As many as 14 million are low-income Americans that are fully eligible for goverment assistance programs, but have failed to enroll.
This leaves 5 to 6 million. Wouldn't it make more sense to make health insurance more affordable for these 5 to 6 million rather than to put us all under a system that will bring about rationing? But Obama isn't interested in making insurance more affordable for those few million. He wants more massive government control.
Ben: Cheaper for who? It's cheaper for most of society to hold these people accountable for their own debts and require them to pay for the costs since they chose not to get insurance instead of that plasma TV.
Yeah, well JW, you're already paying for their dumb asses.
Yeah, well JW, you're already paying for their dumb asses.
Yes, I get that.
But, I don't see how it's cheaper for society to use other people's money to pay for their insurance. It doesn't change the fact that medical services were rendered and those cost X dollars to perform.
People tend to behave more responsibly when it is their dime on the line to pay for their mistakes, not so much with other people's money.
They could afford to pay, but refuse to? There's a "fuck 'em" burbling up from the depths.
Besides the cost of emergency care for dead beats will never match the cost of preventative care and illness coverage for everyone. Especially after droves of the middle class get priced out by employers dumping them on the public option, which won't stay optional anyway.
What's wrong with people that don't want to pay for health insurance getting a big honking bill from the hospital when they seek treatment? Insurance is gambling. Don't roll the dice if you don't want to pay the house.
I guess if you deliberately leave you wallet at home, it's OK to dine and dash at a restaurant "because you were hungry"?
Hey Bookworm - Can I get a link to those figures? I write about this stuff all the time from an economics stand point, and I've seen all those figures before but I never think to keep a link.
Sean,
Here's a link to my piece on that.
http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/2009/08/whos_afraid_of.html
I got the chart from
http://risch.senate.gov/public/?p=BreakdownoftheUninsured
It's based on U.S. Census data.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p60-231.pdf
Fourteen million could be on Medicaid but don't know how to apply? What exactly makes Obama think they'll ubderstand how to apply for a "public option" either?
But, I don't see how it's cheaper for society to use other people's money to pay for their insurance. It doesn't change the fact that medical services were rendered and those cost X dollars to perform.
The only other option is to force them to carry insurance. Charity and coercion both have costs.
Besides, it's not like you can just walk away from medical debt without any consequence.
Good to see someone pointing out the obvious that Democrats have a warped irrational religious faith in government.
The "deserving poor": a fav of the asshole variety of libertarian. Nothing makes these guys angrier than the thought that the "deserving poor" might not get what's "coming to them..."
Wait a second.
YOU'RE the one who can't resist making all sorts of arguments about what the poor "deserve".
YOU'RE the one who asserts that the poor "deserve" to be allowed to use violence against anyone who won't help them if they need anything [like medical care, for example].
If it wasn't for sentences starting, "The poor deserve..." half of your political views would disappear.
If we both decided to assume an attitude of complete agnosticism about what the poor do and don't deserve, I'd be fine with it. Because in the absence of a discussion about what the poor deserve, you can't pick my pocket to give them what you think they deserve.
If you don't want to hear libertarians talk about what the poor deserve, just remove that issue from politics altogether. Problem solved. Sand removed from your vagina.
Hey Bookworm - Can I get a link to those figures? I write about this stuff all the time from an economics stand point, and I've seen all those figures before but I never think to keep a link."
The 18,000,000 uninsured making over $50,000 a year comes from: http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf
The illegal immigrants being apart of that 45.7 million comes from http://www.nypost.com/seven/07212008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/os_health_rx_cover_illegals_120816.htm
The 14 million of poor people who are eligible for medical assistance, but not registered comes from http://www.coverageforall.org/pdf/BC-BS_Uninsured-America.pdf, also http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st269/st269.pdf
Maybe I'm in the slow class, Ben, but how do we benefit from forcing the feckless to carry insurance? Insurance simply adds another layer of costs to what would otherwise be a simple issue. If they don't pay, we set the bill collectors on them.
If we're hell bent on paying for their medical care, at the end of the year, we give providers a check to cover the costs of deadbeats. Why drag the whole structure of insurance into it?
Thanks for the links y'all.
"If we're hell bent on paying for their medical care, at the end of the year, we give providers a check to cover the costs of deadbeats."
This was exactly how it started in the FDR years. Robert Higg's article I linked to above covers that.
*Higgs'
This article was scrapping the bottom of the barrel. And from the looks of it the comment section too. I see people are descending into their the poor and the unions need to be put in their place rhetoric. While indulging in strawmen how much force you want to use against folk who may struggle to pay their bills. That is, if you are done debating how they should spend their money in the first place
Funny how the competition ends when the opportunity to buy drugs from another country presents itself.
You know, we need a better class of troll around here. You know, the kind that can at least make sense.
This leaves 5 to 6 million. Wouldn't it make more sense to make health insurance more affordable for these 5 to 6 million rather than to put us all under a system that will bring about rationing?
Wait a minute. We're only talking about 5-6 million people? Then Obama is more retarded than I thought. He said this health care reform would cover 95% of all Americans. That remaining 5% is 14.5 million people, 15 million IF you count the 10 million uninsureds that are not US citizens. So, he wants to overhaul everything to leave 14.5 million without coverage when we really only have 5-6 million without coverage now who are looking for insurance in the right places and can't get it?!
Oh wait. I think this says it all: But Obama isn't interested in making insurance more affordable for those few million. He wants more massive government control.
So, whaddya say, ObamaCare advocates? You still on board with the Dems plan over any of the solutions offered on these here boards over the last couple months?
Hey tom try working on that reading level. I know they're long sentences but that's no excuse. Instead of imagining how you would punish poor people you can open a book
Yeah, Tomcat1066, only fags use punctuation or know where the shift keys are.
That troll is funny... Bad troll.
Nick, I couldn't find any solutions among the fearmongering, hatred, crying, whining, and consistent reiteration of talking points. Did I leave anything out, oh yeah, blaming the poor and the unions for everything. You know if you think instead of cutting and pasting points to cater to your bias you may learn something.
"Hey tom try working on that reading level. I know they're long sentences but that's no excuse. Instead of imagining how you would punish poor people you can open a book"
You write a sentence like that and then insult my education?
OK...that shit's just funny!
oh no not this again does realize that about 99% of idiotic government interventions in the name of "helping" the poor actually really hurt the poor by limiting their options and crushing economic productivity, right?
Poor dumb troll.
Hey sugar, you got another hick anecdote for us? God knows maybe a few more of those will make me a good little libertarian.
"I see people are descending into their the poor and the unions need to be put in their place rhetoric. While indulging in strawmen"
Uh...look who's engaging in strawman logic. Who here is saying that the poor need to be put in their places?
Productivity has been crushed? Why that's fucking new news to me, and to everyone else too.
It is obviously news to you... That's what I was getting at. Welcome back to reality.
oh no, the only time unions have been mentioned in the health care debate on these boards is when we're talking about how union thugs are attacking people or being bused in to town halls, you know, astroturfing to support the President who cut them an enormous check a couple months ago.
And the poor can get Medicaid and should instead of complaining about being uninsured, but those facts that are so elusive in my post, like the numbers I posted using a calculator, I can't help you there. I'm not a special ed teacher.
You may not have read any solutions on this particular post, but just about every other health care reform discussion at reason that didn't verbally assault Canadians has provided options that are workable to reduce insurance costs and NOT public.
Joe'z Law, Tomcat.
Because it's easier to point out typos from using my blackberry than think about for a minute how desperate and angry you all sound
Hey sugar, you got another hick anecdote for us?
You don't have permission to speak to me, you suppurating cuntsore.
Nick - I've also mentioned the AMA union, which (like all unions) limits the number of doctors allowed to be licensed at any given time, backed by congress of course, leading to doctor shortages - and of course, contributing (deliberately... that's the whole point of a union, no?) to the high wages of doctors, and thus to higher medical costs overall.
There's a union we could totally put in it's place by getting rid of its congressional backing, and see a much needed rise in the number of doctors... = more access to medical professionals per capita and lower cost. Hooray!
Sean look at a productivity graph either you don't know what you are talking about or every other source in the world is lying but I guess it is important to you to have someone to blame or hate as long as it doesn't conflict with your beliefs\
You won't find any disagreement about licensing laws with me.
Please don't feed the trolls. I'm sorry for my small part.
Good night everybody.
Blows kisses at sugarfree. I know the last couple months must of been hard for you, downing moon shine and nursing black socialist boogie men in your head is tough work but don't think your entitled to a break.
Yeah, I'm sorry - I fed the troll... I shouldn't... You're right SF. That's my fault. He's devolving into weird racist rants in his head. Projection's a bitch like that.
That said, SF, kudos:
Oh no productivity is in the tank because of those mean nasty leftists. Boo hoo hoo must maintain my feedom loving victimization
Psst... You're talking to yourself about people who don't exist.
Psst...don't feed the troll
Wait, did the troll just us all not to feed the troll? Isn't that sort of self-defeating?
Damn, the progressives are right. Some of us really aren't rational actors.
There's an implied "tell" in that last post.
Joe'z Law, Tomcat.
I must have missed that one somewhere along the way.
Sean W. Malone, do you have any links handy concerning the docs union limiting licenses and driving wages up? If not it's no problem, I'll look around the net. Thanks
One thing you might enjoy, as you research the roots of health care cost inflation, is googling around for old hospital bills from the 1950's. Google Image Search is a good tool for this. You will find people who had 6-night stays after an operation with a total bill of around $100, or about $1000 in today's dollars. Something is seriously wrong with our health care costs and I doubt it has anything to do with the market being too free.
mark
Cost of having a baby in LDS hospital in Salt Lake City in 1968: hospital $250, OB/Gyn $250.
I'm a little young, so can anyone tell me if childbearing has changed at all since 1968? It's not like the cost of energy, food, or really anything else that existed in 1968 has gone up since then.
mark, in 1984 I was selling cars at a porsche audi vw dealer. I had a Ob-Gyn come in. He was interested in a new 928. He told me that everything he and his wife had was purchased in such a way that he couldn't lose it in a lawsuit. He said that he was paying $100,000/year in malpractice premiums. I have no way to verify his claim. If it was true 25 years ago, it goes a long way to explaining why costs have skyrocketed.
That's so seriously f'ed up I don't know what to make of it. It represents either the utmost priority of keeping life intact during the miracle of birth, or a severe disrespect for the doctor-patient relationship, and an injustice to those mothers who simply want to have medical attention during a natural process in case anything goes wrong. No wonder medical costs are so high, nobody trusts each other! And rather than rebuilding that trust we have socialized the mis-trust. Perverse.
"Lord it's thick with anti-reform propaganda in here."
As opposed to PRO-reform propaganda...?
Hey, Tony... I'll come by your house, and you can give me a hundred bucks. Deal?
No? Well, what if I bring some armed goons with badges along? Will you cough up the Benjamin then?
TLG,
I'll fuck you up if you trespass on my property demanding it with a gun. I don't have a contract for services with you as I do, for example, with the government.
"I don't have a contract for services with you as I do, for example, with the government."
Man, I hope you got a lawyer to look at that before you signed. I had a friend who found out he couldn't even sue them once they fucked him over. Turns out, they actually pay all the judges and prosecutors on a regular basis! I thought "binding arbitration" was bad, but these fuckers are worse than credit card companies.
brotherben:
Like any other type of insurance, there are all sorts of factors that determine a quote. The process is congruent to, say, inquiring about auto insurance. Largest factor is type of medicine practiced (especially if surgery is performed and type: major, minor or none) location of practice, how long in practice, and number of claims filed against the practitioner. New to practice physicians (less than five years, depending on the carrier) tend to get a bit of a break as they usually don't have claims early in practice (yes, med students and residents are responsible for their practice and can be sued).
100k 25 years ago does sound like a lot; I asked one of my colleauges (an OB/GYN) what she pays in premiums per annum totals approx. 145K (she is in a physician group, so she gets a better rate - kinda like fleet insurance). If your car customer was in private individual practice (full or part time) and depending on how many claims he had filed against him (if any) and the amount of claims filed in that area, yeah even 25 years ago (don't know the locale) 100K is not suprising. OB/GYN with major surgery is highest risk specialty.
I am on staff at my hospital; my carrier considers me new to pratice (5 years) and hospital affilation helps with my premiums, but not much since they have their own liability. As a general surgeon, major and minor with bariatric sub-specialty, my premium is approx. 122K per annum in the State of Oklahoma (No Tony jokes please). In 2007, Gov. Brad Henry vetoed tort reform citing he was against caps on non-economic damages.
You might wish to check out this site.
http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/medicalmal/
Groovus Maximus, IIRC, the doc I mentioned was about 60 years old, private practice and worked in the local hospital which was affectionately known as the death center. I can't speak for his medical performance history. As it was, he didn't buy the car because it was 6 inches longer than his 911 and wouldn't fit in the little shack he had for a garage.
Tony obviously didn't get the tax-collector reference. What a dumbshit.
Apparently, Libertarian Guy, the mendacious and verbose Tony failed to read his "contract with the government" regarding billing reimbursement.
Yeah, but Tony expects something in return, that's why he favors government goons sticking their hands in our pockets without our permission.
At gunpoint, if necessary.
He would've gotten the reference, if he wasn't busy masturbating to Mao's Little Red Book.
Perhaps if you Godwin'ed your reference, it might have been a little clearer to Darling Tony.
Not fond of Hitler references, which is why I refer to the president as Benito.
Neither am I, LG.
Keep in mind that Tony appears to both ideologically, intellectually and emotionally stunted.
correction: "be..."
How do you not get that I got that it was a tax collector reference?
I get services in exchange for my taxes. You sticking a gun in my face demanding my money provides me with no service. Services rendered for payment is not theft.
The contract is tacit but I can in theory opt out of it. I just happen to think I get a pretty good deal for my taxes so I'm fine with the terms (in theory--I'd rather the services included less military hardware and more universal healthcare).
Tony, in essence, what you describe is the equivalent of the threat of armed men coming to MY door to pick MY pocket to give to people who may OR MAY NOT deserve my hard-earned money.
I am by no means wealthy. If I have an "estate" value of $100K, I'd be surprised. But I don't hold my hand out for other people's cash.
You do.
Separate thought:
I haven't listened to Limbaugh in years - though I admit to a guilty pleasure of 1) the Paul Shanklin stuff, which I find online and 2) I do listen when Walter E. Williams guest-hosts, as I find him much more palatable than the likes of Paul Fucking Krugman.
Having said that, much as I dislike Limbaugh the man, one thing he said years ago did stick in my mind:
You cannot tax your way to prosperity.
I think it's elegant in its simplicity, and true as hell. Now, theoretically, we COULD - if we taxed everyone with a job or any net worth at 100%, we'd be wealthy as hell... for about fifteen minutes.
And, Tony, I just can't wrap my mind around the idea that only things which start with the words "Department of", are the only worthy things in existence. If government could actually FIX something, I wouldn't be so cynical.