Bruce Bartlett on "The GOP's Misplaced Rage"
Economist Bruce Bartlett, who has written for Reason and still (I think) defines himself as a conservative, lays into "Republican Party hacks trying to overturn the election results" of 2008. These critters, he writes at The Daily Beast, are "not representatives of a true grassroots revolt against liberal policies" but simply bitter partisans opportunistically attacking the opposition.
Snippets:
To a large extent, Obama is only cleaning up messes created by Bush. This is not to say Obama hasn't made mistakes himself, but even they can be blamed on Bush insofar as Bush's incompetence led to the election of a Democrat. If he had done half as good a job as most Republicans have talked themselves into believing he did, McCain would have won easily….
In 2003, the Bush administration repeatedly lied about the cost of the drug benefit to get it passed, and Bush himself heavily pressured reluctant conservatives to vote for the program.
Because reforming Medicare is an important part of getting health costs under control generally, Bush could have used the opportunity to develop a comprehensive health-reform plan. By not doing so, he left his party with nothing to offer as an alternative to the Obama plan. Instead, Republicans have opposed Obama's initiative while proposing nothing themselves.
In my opinion, conservative activists, who seem to believe that the louder they shout the more correct their beliefs must be, are less angry about Obama's policies than they are about having lost the White House in 2008. They are primarily Republican Party hacks trying to overturn the election results, not representatives of a true grassroots revolt against liberal policies. If that were the case they would have been out demonstrating against the Medicare drug benefit, the Sarbanes-Oxley bill, and all the pork-barrel spending that Bush refused to veto.
Bartlett, one of the popularizers of supply-side economics back in the day, manages to squeeze in his latest passion: The need for tax hikes (as opposed to spending cuts, which he thinks are basically impossible) and the related revision (true enough, sadly!) of Ronald Reagan as a tax hiker:
Ronald Reagan worked hard to pass one of the largest tax increases in American history in September 1982, the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act, even though the nation was still in a recession that didn't end until November of that year. Indeed, one could easily argue that the enactment of that legislation was a critical prerequisite to recovery because it led to a decline in interest rates. The same could be said of Clinton's 1993 tax increase, which many conservatives predicted would cause a recession but led to one of the biggest economic booms in history.
Whole thing, worth reading for its various comparisons of Bush vs. Clinton, here.
I like Bartlett on a personal level and, far more important in this context, I've always found him to be interesting, even when I disagree with him. I think Bartlett is right that most GOPpers sat on their hands when it came to denouncing all sorts of really idiotic Bush or Bush-allowed policies, ranging from the Medicare prescription drug bill to the Iraq War to Sarbanes-Oxley. There were some real dissenters, but more often than not, they went along to get along, or whatever. Certainly that was the case with TARP, where too many Republican congressman voted in favor of it almost certainly because it was pushed by a GOP president.
I even agree that Bush's tax cuts, which were always pitched in stimulative terms, should have been deeper and permanent. And accompanied by actual spending cuts, rather than Godzilla-sized increases in everything possible. There's no question that Bush, with a fully compliant GOP Congress, broke the bank, not just for us, but for our kids' kids.
It's easy to see why Bartlett's analysis will find favor with liberal Democrats, even though his thesis disproves their constant contentions during the Bush years that Dubya was starving orphans and widows and schoolkids. Bartlett's surprise that party hacks are party hacks feels forced to me. And it ignores the basic flip-flop that has happened since, oh, the election of 2008. Dem operatives seem much more prone to support war (in Afghanistan, which is like totally different than Iraq!), indefinite detention of non-prisoners of war, profligate spending (Obama's stimulus is righteous, whereas Bush's was simply for fat cats), you name it. Meet the new boss and all that.
Where I definitely don't follow Bartlett is in his implication that because Republican Party hacks are whores, I've got to put up with a massive and seemingly perpetual increase in the size and scope of government. Bruce, baby, what about all of us who were protesting everything you're complaining about (go read the Reason archives)? Reason ain't no partisan rag and I'm not a Republican, of course. But as a small l libertarian who has never voted for a winning politician at any level (including student body president), I refuse to accept the idea that I need to pay the bill for the grandiose delusions of Reps and Dems.
More to the point: According to his own ludicrous 10-year plan, Obama isn't just mopping up the Bush doo-doo, he's doubling down when it comes to deficits and more. If Obama is interested in, I don't know, fixing Medicare, maybe he could have started with a plan to do something like that, rather than trotting out a trillion-dollar waste of resources? His own goddamn Council of Economic Advisers just recently pointed out that about one-third of Medicare's costs could be cut "without adverse health consequences."
You watch the nightly pundit shows and you hear about a newly degraded discourse, where politics was never as partisan or bullshitty or whatever. If you never affiliated with one party or another, the more things change, the more they stay the same. What does seem to be in the air is not the whiff of gunpowder that Rachel Madow is fretting over but some actual outrage from the great boob public over what's shaping up now as a decade of irresponsibility emanating from Washington, D.C. like so much stink from a swamp. People got fed up with Bush's baked beans and they're getting pissed off that "green jobs" really means weatherizing vacant buildings in Flint, Michigan.
If polls are any indication, Obama's policies are genuinely unpopular because, well, they stink on ice. Town hall outrages and tea parties aren't the work of GOP hacks (though these guys would surely love to co-opt what they can), they are the barbaric yawps of Americans ready for 21st century government now that we've only 90 or so years left to get it while we still can.
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These critters, he writes at The Daily Beast, are "not representatives of a true grassroots revolt against liberal policies" but simply bitter partisans opportunistically attacking the opposition.
Why can't there be some of each? And who says the two categories are mutually exclusive?
they are the barbaric yawps of Americans ready for 21st century government
precisely. we've been down this fascist road before, lets try something new: free market capitalism.
To a large extent, Obama is only cleaning up messes created by Bush. This is not to say Obama hasn't made mistakes himself, but even they can be blamed on Bush insofar as Bush's incompetence led to the election of a Democrat.
And insofar as the Clinton administration's foolish raid on the Elian Gonzalez family cost Gore Florida, everything in the Bush administration is actually his fault.
Then again, Bush I's breaking his "no new taxes" pledge sent conservatives running to Perot and allowed Clinton to win with less than 50% of the vote. So everything since then is really his fault.
Of course, if Reagan hadn't chosen GHWB to be his veep, there never would have been a Bush I administration. So it's really his fault.
And Jimmy Carter? His fingerprints are all over the election of Reagan. Guilty.
....
Oh fuck it, I'm taking a page from Aquinas and just blaming the Prime Mover. What an asshole.
"Town hall outrages and tea parties aren't the work of GOP hacks (though these guys would surely love to co-opt what they can), they are the barbaric yawps of Americans ready for 21st century government now that we've only 90 or so years left to get it while we still can."
What the fuck does that even mean? Seriously Nick, I have no idea what you are talking about. Yes, the town hall protestors are not the work of the GOP. Got it. But what the hell is the rest of that talking about?
One of the advantages of the two-party system is that sometimes one party will take up the Right Cause just because the other party is busy whoring itself out.
The fact that the two parties flip flop on this role does not mean we should give up this benefit of the system.
What's the alternative, the two parties take turns spending like drunken sailors with no opposition at all? Is that REALLY what he wants?
New American Standard Bible (?1995)
When the righteous increase, the people rejoice, But when a wicked man rules, people groan.
But what the hell is the rest of that talking about?
change you (i.e. reasonoids) can believe in
But what the hell is the rest of that talking about?
There are only 91 years left in the 21st century, John.
Obama is 4x worse than Bush.
Obama has a deficit 4x the size of Bush's largest.
"They are primarily Republican Party hacks trying to overturn the election results, not representatives of a true grassroots revolt against liberal policies. If that were the case they would have been out demonstrating against the Medicare drug benefit, the Sarbanes-Oxley bill, and all the pork-barrel spending that Bush refused to veto."
It amazes me that someone in public life could be this out of touch and stupid. The drug benefit was peanuts compared to the Obamacare plan. Sarbaines Oxley while a mind numbingly stupid law (and a bi-partisan one) is an accounting law. It is not surprising that changes in corporate accounting rules no matter how ill considered didn't exactly stir up the mob.
Yes people were angry about the deficit. So they voted the party in power out of power. And the party that won in 2006 and 2008 on promises of fiscal responsibility proceeded to immediately break the bank and spend even more than the Republicans did. Then, they want to totally transform healthcare in this country on a three month deadline with a bill no one outside lobbyists and staff members have ever read or understands.
Yet, the outrage over the whole thing is just a bunch of hacks who won't accept election results. No it is a bunch of voters who are tired of being lied to. The article and the reaction to the town hall protests are all about culture. The beltway elite assholes on both sides can't stand the idea of average people having any say on things. When some creature like Bartlett says "won't accept election results" he is really saying "won't accept rule by their betters".
actual outrage from the great boob public
You can say "booboisie," Nick. It's ok. A few people here have read Mencken.
What the fuck does Bartlett expect people to have done during the Bush years? I would think voting the Republicans out of office and handing the Democrats majorities in both houses of Congress and the giving them the Presidency is a proper way to say you object to Republican policies. Oh, but if only they had protested more. Yeah, that would have done a lot of good.
Jesus this is gonna be a tedious thread. I gotta get a vicodin and a few shrooms.
Fixed:
To a large extent, cars are only cleaning up messes created by horses. This is not to say cars haven't made mistakes themselves, but even they can be blamed on horses insofar as horses' incompetence led to the election of internal combustion engines. If horses had done half as good a job as most mammals have talked themselves into believing they did, Black Beauty would have won easily....
Makes even more sense now...
How about blaming Obama for not living up to his centrist rethoric and letting Pelosi and Reid draft policy for him?
Supply-siders are just the conservative versions of Keynesians. They think government can successfully tweak macroeconomic variables to usher in decades of prosperity. The only tweaking that should be done is to remove the impediments to individual economic actors.
Contra Bartlett, a fair number of Republicans didn't care for the spending involved in "compassionate conservatism." Many Republicans (though few elected ones) never went along; they only voted for Bush because they thought the alternative was even worse. And damned if they weren't right.
The only tweaking that should be done is to remove the impediments to individual economic actors
I don't think Congress is going away anytime soon.
Funny everyone on the left thinks he's not living up to his liberal rhetoric.
Oh you are aware that Congress and not the president drafts laws, aren't you?
Joe Kristan, voting for someone give them the impression that you are in agreement with their policies. I suggest that whenever a vote is cast to punish someone or out of fear for the opponent, it always ends badly.
Bartlett misses the point and Nick gave him a thorough thrashing for it. Well done.
John - you're spot on. Most of the previous acts of congressional stupidity (or depravity, your pick)have been only fully realized in retrospect. With this healthcare nightmare, people are seeing the problems before they arise and are out in the streets and in the town halls because they think that maybe, just maybe we the people can stop it before it's enacted instead of bitching about it later.
At the same time, other fears are showing up because of the President's ambitious first year. That's why we're seeing so many instances of open-carry at these meetings and protests. The coastal and urban leftists in the media freak out because where they're from guns are basically illegal for everyone but cops.
What's with the unsupported assumption that liberals all of a sudden are just fine with the Afghan war and indefinite detentions and such?
And on spending, yes, it does matter what the money is being spent on. Not everyone sees "spending" as an evil unto itself. Besides, Bush's tax cuts are the functional equivalent of massive spending.
Don't talk to trollers
Baby, don't you talk
Don't talk to trollers
You know he'll only use you up
Don't talk, don't talk, don't talk,
Don't talk, don't talk to him
Nobody ever told you? Don't talk to trollers
"Yes people were angry about the deficit. So they voted the party in power out of power. And the party that won in 2006 and 2008 on promises of fiscal responsibility proceeded to immediately break the bank and spend even more than the Republicans did."
thank you!
Would anyone here be surprised if Bartlett(the fat fuck) got caught sexting with young men who work for him?
The utter dishonesty of his article can only be explained by someone blackmailing him to pen articles advocating tax increases while calling himself "conservative"....and calling people mad at the bipartisian political elites..."partisan hacks"
bartlett is no different than the winch on CNN.
who is the partisan hack
"...tax cuts are the functional equivalent of massive spending."
My god, I think I had small brain hemorage reading that. There's blood leaking from my eyes!
Shut the fuck up, Tony! You worthless piece of shit.
"Besides, Bush's tax cuts are the functional equivalent of massive spending."
yes because the government owns 100% of your income and any amount of your own money they allow you to keep is the same as giving you welfare. You socialist fuck.
Didn't say that John.
"To a large extent, Obama is only cleaning up messes created by Bush"
Bullshit.
Obama's massive "stimulus" plan had nothing to do with cleaning up any Bush mess.
The global warming BS - cap and trade bill had nothing to do with cleaning up any Bush mess.
The health care "reform" legislation had nothing to do with cleaning up any Bush mess.
The expansion of the SCHIP program had nothing to do with cleaning up any Bush mess.
The attempt to create a new education "entitlement" program has nothing to do with cleaning up any Bush mess.
by functional equivelant do you mean
tax cuts = less revenue
therefore:
less revenue = more spending?
Don't encourage him, John. He needs to troll elsewhere.
"Tony | August 18, 2009, 12:23pm | #
What's with the unsupported assumption that liberals all of a sudden are just fine with the Afghan war and indefinite detentions and such?"
Gates, Clinton and Obama are INCREASING our troop presence in the middle east while the democrats pledged to get them out before the 2006 elections. The media plays alogn with semantics about "combat" and "non-combat" troops and silly stories about going after teh "real terrorist" ...and yet anyone who questions the nazi-like policies of no-trial, no-jury imprisonment, torture, dropping bombs on innocent goat farmers and giving all our money to politically connected corporations is called unamerican, ignorant and partisian by a chorus of powerful democrats and MSM players.
There is the support that I have that democrats liek war now tony ..proceed with your trolling.
I mean whether spending or tax cuts it's still draining the treasury. Do you people understand simple arithmetic? I'm saying that bitching about "spending" in general as if spending is inherently bad while applauding massive tax cuts without reductions in spending is hypocritical.
And I really don't think I fit the definition of a troll, so everyone always telling me to shut up and go away strike me as seriously insecure. It's just a different opinion from yours, don't worry!
Wow are you a big fat fucking liar.
"It's just a different opinion from yours, don't worry!"
Another happy mongoloid!
"It's just a different opinion from yours, don't worry!"
But it's a really stupid opinion.
"anyone who questions the nazi-like policies of no-trial, no-jury imprisonment, torture, dropping bombs on innocent goat farmers and giving all our money to politically connected corporations is called unamerican, ignorant and partisian by a chorus of powerful democrats and MSM players."
Or big fat fucking liar.
Gilbert, While I'm kinda on your side with dogpiling Bartlett. I am forced to state:
"The global warming BS - cap and trade bill had nothing to do with cleaning up any Bush mess."
Yes Bush actually ENDORSED the CO2 fearmongering insanity at the end of his term...giving added momentum to the Al Gore nsane train...so yes this mess is partially Bushes fault too.
"The health care "reform" legislation had nothing to do with cleaning up any Bush mess."
Bushes new drug entitlement fucked up our health care system more...so yes this is partially Bushes fault.
"The attempt to create a new education "entitlement" program has nothing to do with cleaning up any Bush mess."
Bushes "no child left behind" fucked up our education system even more, so yes this does create mroe fertile ground for obama to fuck it up even more.
You seem like the type of person who voted for Bush and got kinda mad at him forcing you to admit your error in judgement, yet you still have some incredibly brainwashed portions of consciousness that are still trapped in the false left-right paradigm. Good luck with that, I really think you can pull out of it, just stop getting insulted when people criticize a republican...you are not him.
"
Bushes "no child left behind" fucked up our education system even more, so yes this does create mroe fertile ground for obama to fuck it up even more."
Nothing fucked up our education system more than Brown v. Board because it led to bussing, which splintered communities.
busing. doh!
You heard it here first. Separate but equal...for freedom!
"Bushes new drug entitlement fucked up our health care system more...so yes this is partially Bushes fault."
No I don't buy that logic. Bush creating the drug entitlement was a mistake. Obama trying to create an ADDITIONAL entitlement is not "fixing" the Bush mistake and has nothing to do with it. Obama would be trying to do what he's doing regardless of whether Bush had ever created a drug entitlement or not.
And the same thing goes for the rest of the items you commented on. Nothing Obama is doing has anything to do with "fixing" anything Bush did - it all has to do with jamming the country as far leftward as possible.
It just comes across as disingenous when people screech, "but but but, your guy is doing more of what our guy did!"
because it led to bussing
I'm sure there was some of that too.
I keep hearing John complain about Obama not changing the status of gitmo detainees. That Obama is still fighting Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That Obama's stimulus is wrong when Bush's was right. What exactly do you think Obama should have done by now in the wars and with the detainees and with the economy John? Show your work.
Tony,
Me and my group went to a teaparty event protesting the Orahma regimes actions I stated earlier:
"the nazi-like policies of no-trial, no-jury imprisonment, torture, dropping bombs on innocent goat farmers and giving all our money to politically connected corporations"
We were called all the names I mentioned for doing so. This is ONE example of how the media was actually caught misrepresenting the issue:
who is the partisan hack?
how am I lying? really how...if you are not a troll you would explain it a little more clearly...I am so sick of the political establishment that I actually am working in common cause with people who are basically self described socialist. Some of these folks I met at a teaparty...we don't agree on many things, but these socialist are at least intellectually honest enough to realize that what I have said here is true...how does that make me a partisian hack? a liar?
there are many millions of people in this country who DID NOT like George Bush. To deny that many millions of people who don't like George Bush are also not happy with Obama is ignorant. To pretend that all the people who are ANGRY at our government were suporters of George Bush is the height of stupidity. The anger ahs been building for years and it has continued to grow under Obama.
When the government ignores 90% of it's constituents as it did under BUSHES bailout package that OBAMA helped get passed, then democracy has failed. When Democracy fails then you start to see more protests. Why is this such a hard story to understand?
"I'm sure there was some of that too."
Not a member.
My city spends $33M per year to pick up students of color so they can learn in a school on the otherside of town full of students of color. When the overwhelming number of students in your city are children of color, busing them all over is batshit shellgame insane.
BTW, shut the fuck up Tony.
Please folks, for the love of god, ignore the troll.
"I mean whether spending or tax cuts it's still draining the treasury. Do you people understand simple arithmetic? I'm saying that bitching about "spending" in general as if spending is inherently bad while applauding massive tax cuts without reductions in spending is hypocritical. "
On this, Tony is sort of right. The effect of tax cuts without a corresponding cut in spending has the same net impact as a spending increase.
However, what Tony has failed to realize is that spending cuts have been talked about here. Repeatedly. And, as such, it's possible to applaud a step in the right direction while simultaneously deriding the failure to complete the journey.
What TAO said.
to make sure we have no more of these mythical "spending increases", let's get the liberals on board with a Balanced-Budget Amendment.
Bush blazed the trail. Obama is paving it.
Both are culpable.
"Obama trying to create an ADDITIONAL entitlement is not "fixing" "
Maybe it isn't to you and me Gilbert...but you have to understand by now that this is the way government works.
"never let a crisis go to waste"
You must have only started studying the expansion of governments throughout history to be this surprised by my interpretation of events.
Sure the Tonys, Bill Mahers and Rachell Maddows actually think the new programs are supposed to fix the mistakes of previous legislation, but the Rahm Emanuels and Machievellis of the world are thinking a little deeper.
TAO, getting the libs on board with a BBA would just shift the catfight over to how deep to gut the military budget for the financing social welfare programs.
Tot to continue to thread jack, but my city is closing schools due to budget shortages so that means even MORE busing. One of the schools that closed also houseed a community center. The people packed the school board meetings. Of course the board said we have to close the school (fuck the poor kids and their community center, often the only safe place to play) in order to close the budget gap. That the deficit was $5M less than the annual busing expenditure wasn't even considered or discussed.
Ah, perhaps you simply don't understand the economic argument.
Spending now without increased taxes means paying for it with interest rates sooner or later and taxes later. Increased taxes now are not automatically better or worse than increased taxes later or increased interest rates, though they can be better or worse for particular people (we have a tendency to put things off, but OTOH generally our descendants will be wealthier. Higher interest rates affect people with fixed income differently from those with existing debt, etc.)
"Draining the treasury" is only an issue at the point at which the debt becomes unsustainable. Interest rates do not appear to have hit that point; if you, Tony, (or indeed, Bruce Bartlett) thought that we were close to the unsustainable point, then President Obama would have to do everything in his power to bring the debt down. Blaming it on Bush or saying that it would be "overturning the election" to not have the deficit increase would be ridiculous if the country is threatened with default.
No, spending is the proper thing to look at. All spending must be paid for. It's just a matter of whether we're paying for it now, paying for it later, or paying for it in higher interest rates.
The problem with the spending is that, axiomatically, the spending tends to be spent worse than how the free market would allocate the money. Any time spending is increased, it is shifting money from a more efficient use to a less efficient use. All else is just a question of how we're paying for it.
Note that if you're a progressive who believes that people don't spend their money correctly and the government could do a better job, you use this same argument to argue that various capital "stimulus" spending is worth doing because it pays for itself.
Tot = Not
"You must have only started studying the expansion of governments throughout history to be this surprised by my interpretation of events."
I'm not all surprised by the expansion of government.
I just don't agree with your logic that the blame for expansion number X lies with the initator of expansion number X-1 instead of the person who instigated expansion X.
The blame for each discrete expansion of government lies entirely with the particular individual and/or or party who initiated it.
You heard it here first. Separate but equal...for freedom!
Cesar truly is a genius.
"The effect of tax cuts without a corresponding cut in spending has the same net impact as a spending increase.
No, spending is the proper thing to look at. All spending must be paid for. It's just a matter of whether we're paying for it now, paying for it later, or paying for it in higher interest rates."
And your point? I'm not disagreeing with that. My point was that cutting taxes without spending cuts means we are still deficit spending with money that has to be borrowed and therefore repaid with interest, which is no different than increasing spending in the first place.
At least in regards to government spending. It makes a big difference in my wallet 😉
If Cesar is behind Tony, then he's continuing to be at the top of his game.
Maybe Jesse can out whoever is behind Tony just like he did with Neil.
No. Cutting taxes without spending cuts is like doing nothing to taxes without spending cuts.
At least as far as the overall economy is generally considered. Yes, there are very important efficiency questions of which taxes avoid deadweight loss, which I'm treating as a separate issue. And yes, as an individual you might prefer only tax cuts that you benefit from directly, and then failing that prefer no tax cuts to tax cuts that don't benefit you directly.
"You heard it here first. Separate but equal...for freedom!"
You know there are districts that are resegregating. Uber-liberal NYC comes to mind...
No. Cutting taxes without spending cuts is like doing nothing to taxes without spending cuts.
Honest to God, that makes no sense at all. How in the hell is decreasing income without cutting outgo the same thing as doing nothing to income without cutting outgo? Seriously?
If you cut taxes $5 but are still spending $50, how is it any different that doing nothing to taxes but increasing spending to $55?
The only thing that matters as far as the economy is concerned is the efficiency to which money is spent, and avoiding deadweight loss in taxation.
Liberal economists of course disagree and argue that the government can find more efficient ways to spend money than the private sector.
And, for the record, I'm asking in good faith. I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here.
Questioning your axioms is out of the question I suppose.
Certainly not, Tony. As I wrote, "Liberal economists of course disagree and argue that the government can find more efficient ways to spend money than the private sector."
But certainly you can see a difference, right Tony? President Obama certainly believes in the difference, as does the Democratic Party. They argue that government investment is better than private investment, because the government will spend the money more wisely. This is separate from any Keynesian "pump-priming" issues about demand being lower than potential demand.
If they didn't think so, then they wouldn't have put long-term expensive projects that haven't started spending yet and won't be expected to until after the recovery should start in the stimulus package.
"I keep hearing John complain about Obama not changing the status of gitmo detainees. That Obama is still fighting Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That Obama's stimulus is wrong when Bush's was right. What exactly do you think Obama should have done by now in the wars and with the detainees and with the economy John? Show your work."
First, I don't object to his handling of Iraq or Afghanistan. Although I don't think sending 60,000 more people to Afghanistan is a good idea, I will give BO the benefit of the doubt. Who I will not give the benefit of the doubt to are pukes like you who spent the last eight years screaming your heads off about Bush's war and the fierce moral urgency of ending the war in Iraq and getting out of Afghanistan only to crawl under a rock when your guy got elected and continued those very same wars and in fact is escalating one of them. Your hypocrisy shows that you never really gave a fuck about anything beyond getting your guy in.
The same goes for Obama's policy on GUITMO. I do not object to any of his actions. He hasn't done a bad job at all. But I am just supporting the same policy I always have. Pukes like you on the other hand who were running around screaming the GUITMO was an American Gulag and so fourth only to shut up when Obama continued doing the same thing, have a lot to answer for.
As far as the economy goes. Obama should have not done a damn thing except tell the Dems in Congress that we are not having cap and theft and winning the election was a green light to steal the entire treasury. The economy will turn around on its own.
Obama is doing for the anti-war movement what Clinton did for the feminists; revealing them to be the leftist frauds that they always were.
"The blame for each discrete expansion of government lies entirely with the particular individual and/or or party who initiated it."
I can't disagree with this, but I don't see it as super important when we are arguing about whether or not Bush messed things up. Bush expanded the government a whole lot...over 100%...we saw the results of that at the end of 2008.
Is it hard to see how plenty of blame can be placed on both Obama and Bush? Simply allowing blame to be place on Bush does not in anyway eliminate blame from Obama.
As long as a significant majority of our population sees the blame as being 100% democrat or republican then we will be stuck with the other corrupt party ruling us like tyrants.
John Thacker,
I think I see the problem. You're talking about overall economic impact, while I was simply looking at the budgetary impact.
Hence, the misunderstanding. 😉
You're just so cute John. A couple weeks ago, you castigated me for using the term, "sheeple" in a post about folks blindly following their chosen leader. Now, in a fit of self righteousness, you talk about the "pukes like you."
I see from your post that you are now an Obama supporter. It is nice to have you on board as a fellow puke. Welcome!
John, it isn't that me and my fellow pukes are now in support of the war or gitmo. It is simply that we understand that it is far easier to run the train off the track than to return it to it's previous state. Anyone can start a war. Ending it in a suitable way is where it gets tough.
"I can't disagree with this, but I don't see it as super important when we are arguing about whether or not Bush messed things up."
I never claimed Bush didn't mess anything up.
I just reject that notion that he is to blame for anything that Obama is doing.
Bush is responsible for what Bush did and Obama is responsible for what Obama did.
Bush was wrong for creating a new entitlement program and for going along with too much spending and accepting the premises of the left on far too many things.
One thing he is NOT responsible for though, is the recession and the credit crsis despite Obama's attempt to blame it on him as an excuse for all his "pork laden spending" to "fix" it.
"John, it isn't that me and my fellow pukes are now in support of the war or gitmo. It is simply that we understand that it is far easier to run the train off the track than to return it to it's previous state. Anyone can start a war. Ending it in a suitable way is where it gets tough."
You are cute Ben. So escalating the war in Afghanistan and sending 66K more troops there is just ending it in a suitable way. If McCain had won the election and done the same thing, you would be on here having the vapors.
Just admit it, war you will never have to fight in when accompanied by Obama's cock in your mouth really isn't that bad.
When people you disagree with win an election, you're not allowed to disagree with them anymore. After all, isn't that the way it's been for the last 9 years?
For the record -
Obama has taken ownership of Afghanistan. He has yet to define objectives or an exit strategy, but when he started ramping up the number of troops and increasing predator strikes in Pakistan's tribal areas it clearly became Obama's war. I will hold him accountable for both successes and faillures.
Whether he will gracefully concede the inevitable defeat of secular democracy with respect for human rights in Iraq remains to be seen. It should be noted there are as many troops in Iraq now as there was prior to "the surge?".
Tony, for you I have an internet debating tip.
Links to anti-war protests held since the inauguration would bolster your claim that the left hasn't stopped agitaing for ending US involvement in the Middle East.
I wonder how much he was paid for this piece? I bet it was filthy lucre that made him write this hackery.
Anyone read about McAllen, Texas, one of the poorest places in America where government-funded healthcare is dominant? Shocker: They have the highest per person cost in the country, by a large margin.
X, for you I have an internet debating tip.
A logical thing to state, and a good point, but an irrational one as well for the target is an irony troll (same guy who claims to be 'carbon negative'). I don't think it is Neil/Cesar but the one who use to go under the moniker Dan T. Same rhetorical style.
I would say, "what is it going to take to get people to stop feeding the troll, troll the troll feeders?" In truth, if we did that, in a month or so we will hear from, say, Phil who will spout, "Hi, I'm Phil. I'm a liberal arts major, and I have heard some things about Libertarians . . .", and you suckers will be right there to oblige him all over again.
John, thanks for the compliment;}
You said this: First, I don't object to his handling of Iraq or Afghanistan. Although I don't think sending 60,000 more people to Afghanistan is a good idea, I will give BO the benefit of the doubt.
Then , in the same breath, you accuse me of sucking his cock if I give Obama the same benefit of the doubt? Just keep up the hard right screeching there John. It's working so well for you.
I am laughing at myself now alan. I think you are right. I have trolled others on here occasionally and yet I fall for the bait repeatedly myself. Tony, please engage...you aren't real are you? I pledge not to post on here again for at least 7 days
"Then , in the same breath, you accuse me of sucking his cock if I give Obama the same benefit of the doubt? Just keep up the hard right screeching there John. It's working so well for you."
The difference is I give Obama the benefit of the doubt just like I would have given McCain the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't matter if there is an R or D after their name. You in contrast would be screaming your head off if McCain had done the same things Obama did. You give Obama and anyone with a D after their name the benefit of the doubt on wars. As long as you get to suck the Obamacock, wars just are not that big of a deal to you and ever other anti- war person these days.
I am laughing at myself now alan. I think you are right. I have trolled others on here occasionally and yet I fall for the bait repeatedly myself. Tony, please engage...you aren't real are you? I pledge not to post on here again for at least 7 days
Oh what fun it is, too.
When the lefties were in full cloud nine smug mode right after Obama was elected, they were absolutely unbearable. To fight it off, I found a few Sean Hannity transcripts, copied about two dozen of the most obnoxious bullet points, and I invented a neocon persona to go with it.
Every thirty minutes or so, I would paste one of the bullet points and add a few words that made them somewhat relevant to the discussion. When I came back, inevitably, joe and some of the others would write up lengthy replies that I would not bother to read, and it would continue for good long time.
As fun as that was, I wasn't sorry to see him go, though.
John, while you are pulling predictions right out of your ass hows about explaining how I would feel about what McCain might have done with the economy?
Because it is an absolute dream of mine to have a discussion with a fucking moron that knows my positions on things much much better than me.
I don't recall making such a claim. I wouldn't presume to speak for the "left" but my personal opinion is that there aren't a lot of good options. Invading countries in the manner of Iraq and Afghanistan hasn't proved to be a very successful route for the U.S., and we've certainly created more problems than we've solved. But it's Bush's clusterfuck and as far as I know Obama and his team are doing the best they can to clean it up. If Obama decides to unilaterally and preventively invade Iran I'll be right back at the rallies.
Conservatives should get pissed about the shitty things that the old guy did rather then get pissed about the shitty things the new guy is doing now.
I think this may be the perfect formula for continuing the trend of shitty government.
"Because it is an absolute dream of mine to have a discussion with a fucking moron that knows my positions on things much much better than me."
So if McCain had won and were sending 60+ thousand more people to Afghanistan, you would have been totally okay with that. You honestly expect anyone to beleive that?
and there's my point right there John. It doesn't matter what I say my opinion would have been because you already decided what my opinion is and you won't believe anything different.
You aren't interested in my opinion John. All I ask is that you stop putting words in my mouth and stop insisting that your broad brush generalizations about those that disliked Bush are what I think.
"but simply bitter partisans opportunistically attacking the opposition"
Wouldn't it be logical that Democrats would be acting the same way Republicans are now, if McCain had won?
"To a large extent, Obama is only cleaning up messes created by Bush"
But can the messes Obama leaves behind, be cleaned up... ever?
Tony:
"I mean whether spending or tax cuts it's still draining the treasury"
Keep spending AND taxes low, and it works just fine. The economy is not a zero-sum game.
"the Rahm Emanuels and Machievellis of the world are thinking a little deeper"
Oooh, there's the missing connection. GREAT comparison.
And here all this time, I've been dismissing Rahm as just a Chicago political mob boss.
Thanks, Gabe. It makes perfect sense now.
Mr. Bartlett, 500 times on the blackboard:
"I will not let the perfect be the enemy of the good"
and
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"