Interested in a Political History of the "Birther" Movement?

Then Reason Contributing Editor David Weigel has many details about the Obama-birth certificate obsessives, over at the Washington Independent. I don't know that I agree with Weigel's contention that the movement "dogs Republicans" (there being so very many other issues that have more bite than a few barkers), but I wholeheartedly concur that this story has legs no evidence will ever trip up, a fact that can't conceivably help the Republican Party unless and until the mother of all Bali birth certificates is magically produced.

Two side notes: 1) I moderated a Freedom Fest panel last week that included Heritage Foundation President Ed Fuelner, Cato Executive Vice President David Boaz, and conservative direct-mail impresario Richard Viguerie, talking mostly about issues of libertarian/conservative faultlines. The very first post-panel question from an audience member was about how the really upsetting thing was Obama's birth certificate (Viguerie, chivalrously, shared the interlocutor's concern). 2) If John McCain had won the presidency, we'd be hearing the same thing, albeit from (mostly) different people.

Comments

[sage]

Interested in a Political History of the "Birther" Movement?

Me neither.

[J sub D]

Interested in a Political History of the "Birther" Movement?

Not particularly, but I'll go read the article anyway.

[James Ard]

I wonder how many birthers are actually plants trying to embarass Republicans? Of course the movement doesn't benefit Republicans. Obama will do enough to wreck the country that the GOP isn't going to need crazy citizenship concerns to win in 2012.

[Mike M.]

F*ck that stooge Dave Weigel.

[John-David]

Cue LoneWacko in 3... 2...

If Obama doesn't want to admit he was born outside the US, I'd settle for him admitting that the moon landings were faked.

[P Brooks]

Interested in a Political History of the "Birther" Movement?

Not in the least; next question?

[Craig]

So it doesn't matter if the president isn't really a natural born citizen? Why should it -- the rest of the Constitution is routinely ignored.

And yes, McCain was also ineligible -- the law naturalizing people born in the US-controlled Panama Canal zone passed two years after he was born, and any retroactivity doesn't apply to presidential candidates.

Of course, Bush and Cheney were also ineligible to take office, since they were both residents of the same state, in clear violation of the Constitution, despite Cheney's vacation home in Wyoming.

[James B.]

But has Bob Barr produced his birth certificate?

[a reader]

It's not about the birth certificate, but about his total citizenship history, how it has been obscured, and how questions about his lack of transparency have been met by distortions and attacks instead of openness.

A taxpayer asked the campaign to establish the candidate's eligibility. The campaign has refused. The media have colluded. This government is likely fraudulent. It's not a small issue, and needs to be cleared up.

[jonanon]

His mother is quite attractive in that photo.

[kevrob]

Birthers, Truthers, Birchers - all carrying water for The Philadelphian Conspiracy! That the "ratification" of the so-called "Constitution" was carried out in violation of the procedures, especially unanimity, outlined in The Articles of Confederation somehow never bothers them!

[/sarcasm] Pikers!

Kevin

[BakedPenguin]

Back when Lonewhacker was pimping the whole "birth certificate" crap, Urkobold weighed in on the Obama citizenship thing.

[R C Dean]

McCain was also ineligible -- the law naturalizing people born in the US-controlled Panama Canal zone passed two years after he was born, and any retroactivity doesn't apply to presidential candidates.

McCain's parents were both US citizens, which, as I recall, means it wouldn't matter where he was born.

Not sure what the law said when Obama was born about kids who have only one US citizen as a parent.

To me, the real mystery is why this hasn't been instantly put to bed by simply producing the original Hawaii birth certificate, rather than a certificate from Hawaii saying they have one, somewhere, honest. Its probably just the reflexes of the Chicago machine that surrounds Obama to coverup and obfuscate, even when they don't need to, but that hardly casts a positive light on The One, does it?

[Mike in PA]

Since I think most conspiracy nuts are, well... nuts, my inclination is to disregard any of this "not born in the U.S." crap. But, dammit, it's like the administration is bending over backwards to keep this thing going! Just put an end to it all, already!

The real conspiracy is why they want to keep the so-called controversy alive. But to believe that, I'd have to cross the line over into nutdom.

[IceTrey]

Neither Obama nor McCain are eligible to be President. Obama's father was a foreigner and McCain was born outside the country. This means neither was a natural born citizen.

[Flyover Country]

So that's where Weigel went. I figured he got a job with Obama administration after all his pre-election shilling.

[SugarFree]

R C Dean,

While I don't agree with it, I imagine they are thinking along the lines that even if they get the "real" one, the ones that don't care about facts will just howl about that one as well. My take is that they are just not acknowledging the Birthers at all in order to deny them credibility.

They should let a pet "objective" journalist do it, and then laugh it off when the Birthers don't stop.

[24AheadDotCom]

Matt Welch:

You've occasionally read my site, do you think I'd just start making things up? Do you think I'm easily confused? Certainly, you probably disagree with me on many things, but do you think I would push a story so hard if I weren't telling the truth?

So, go read my coverage of the Obama certificate issue.

My notice that libertarians engage in childish ad homs applies double in this case. Not even one person has ever been able to point to anything I've gotten wrong at that page. Instead, they simply don't read it and say things based on what they think is there. Or, they just scan it and then make things up. Not even one person has ever attempted to challenge my argument. That will assuredly happen again in this case, so the reader should compare what's at that page above with any comments that follow.

Note also the challenge at the link above; if anyone doubts what I say then do the reporting that Weigel refuses to do by simply picking up the phone.

And, of course, note the recent entries with more examples of various sources covering up for BHO.

Go take a look at the link, and see all the things that Weigel and others won't tell their readers.

[David Weigel]

I'd say that this has definitely dogged a few Republicans. Rep. Bill Posey (R-Fla.) was only in his job for two months when he introduced a bill demanding birth certificates from presidential candidates, and he became the subject of jokes on "The Colbert Report," a negative editorial from his hometown paper, etc and etc. Kris Kobach, whom I use in the lede of the story, had to walk back from a joke about Obama's birth certificate.

It's just bad news in general to be seen as a politician or party that's obsessed with conspiracy theories. Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-Ga.) lost her House seat (the first time) because she appeared on a small lefty radio show and asked, in a roundabout way, whether Bush knew about 9/11 in advance. Boom -- from obscure lefty to national laughingstock. And we all remember how Ron Paul had to push back against allegations that he was a 9/11 conspiracy theorist after a Truther group asked him leading questions and uploaded the video to YouTube.

[Matt Welch]

You've occasionally read my site, do you think I'd just start making things up?

Strangely, I'm pretty sure I've never written word about your coverage of this issue.

[Isaac Bartram]

R C Dean

The birth certificate the campaign put on line is the document you get if you ask for a BC from the State of Hawaii. I know, it's identical to the ones I got when I applied for mine in 01 or 02.

Now since we haven't seen the actual document but only a facsimile on line there's no saying that it isn't a photoshopped forgery.

Oh, wait, if you RTFA, you'll see this:

"It's crazy," said Janice Okubo, director of communications for the Hawaii Department of Health. "I don't think anything is ever going to satisfy them."

Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama 'Birthers' that are "more like threats," explained that the certificate of live birth reproduced by Obama's campaign should have debunked the conspiracy theories. "If you were born in Bali, for example," Okubo explained, "you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. But it's become very clear that it doesn't matter what I say. The people who are questioning this bring up all these implausible scenarios. What if the physician lied? What if the state lied? It's just become an urban legend at this point."

IOW an official of the State has gone as far as she legally can to verify that it is legitimate.

[Dave Weigel]

Lonewacko, could you stop lying for a second? You write:

... if anyone doubts what I say then do the reporting that Weigel refuses to do by simply picking up the phone.

The funny thing is that I talked to the Hawaii Department of Health for the second time in eight months. Instead of pointing me to their statement, as they did in December, they debunked the "maybe the certificate could say he was born in another country" theory.

"It's crazy," said Janice Okubo, director of communications for the Hawaii Department of Health. "I don't think anything is ever going to satisfy them."

Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama 'Birthers' that are "more like threats," explained that the certificate of live birth reproduced by Obama's campaign should have debunked the conspiracy theories. "If you were born in Bali, for example," Okubo explained, "you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. But it's become very clear that it doesn't matter what I say. The people who are questioning this bring up all these implausible scenarios. What if the physician lied? What if the state lied? It's just become an urban legend at this point."

Hawai'i has confirmed what you said it wouldn't confirm. So stop lying already.

[Isaac Bartram]

So, go read my coverage of the Obama certificate issue.

Why? It's all a bunch of bullshit.

Wow, what a coinkidink at 12:38pm. Gret minds, I guess. 🙂

[Isaac Bartram]

I'm not sure if any state still issues the "long form" BC any more.

[Mike M.]

And presto, Reason's #1 former fake libertarian Obama stooge is back!

[Enyap]

"But, dammit, it's like the administration is bending over backwards to keep this thing going!"

I was be surprised if it was. What better way to bring out the crazy and cause the Republicans to shot theirself in the foot.

[Warty]

Hard question: when did Hawaii acquire an apostrophe? Be careful, I'm putting your answers on Youtube.

[David Weigel]

Reason's #1 former fake libertarian Obama stooge is back!

The truth is I never left you.

[Isaac Bartram]

The "birthers" that have you both ways, of course, are the "he's not a citizen because his father was a foreigner" ones. That way it doesn't matter what the birth certificate says.

The funny thing is that they cite some SC decision as saying that a NBC must have both parents be citizens. Which is bullshit since the only time that is mentioned in the decision ist to dismiss it from consideration.

I like the "birthers" because of the delicious mix of ignorant and crazy they bring. They're simply the bestest conpiracy theorists ever.

The JFK and 9/11 nuts are pikers compared to them.

[J sub D]

Warty - The apostrophe in Hawaii is an illegal immigrant and should be deported back to Punctuatistan.

[J sub D]

The JFK and 9/11 nuts are pikers compared to them.

Dunno 'bout that, Isaac. The troofers possess a veritable cornucopia of insanity coupled with an almost superhuman ability to deny reality.

I'd call it a wash.

[John]

If the birther movement dogs the Republicans, why didn't the truther movement dog the Democrats? Weigel commits the common slander that no Democrat is responsible for the whackos on the left but every Republican is responsible for the whackos on the Right.

[Mike M.]

So that's where Weigel went. I figured he got a job with Obama administration after all his pre-election shilling.

Yeah, if Obama isn't paying him, he should be.

I just hope that Mr. Welch isn't going to make us endure yet another round of this B.S. when the next election comes.

[bob]

the author is correct, but only in that people would say the same about mccain. this is because neither mccain nor obama are actually eligible. i look forward to the rest of you finding that out in the next couple of years and assume if that happens you will happily apologies to all the you ridiculed.

as an aside, i am not american, nor do i live in america. i have studied this subject however, as a law student, and have drawn my conclusions accordingly.

why not actually investigate it properly... this is the trouble with journalists today. all useless jorbs-worths, or in someone's pocket.

[24AheadDotCom]

1. I wasn't accusing Matt Welch of accusing me of making things up. I was referring to the smear campaign conducted by Weigel, Ben Smith, and many other MSM reporters in which they try to portray anyone who discusses the truth about this issue as tinfoil hat wearing birthers.

2. Weigel is either accusing Okubo of committing a crime, or she has in fact committed a crime. She cannot, under HI law, reveal anything on a certificate. And, that would include verifying what's on a certificate.

So, Weigel, which is it? Are you falsely accusing her of committing a crime, or has she committed a crime?

[24AheadDotCom]

Also, here's a recent example of Janice Okubo either lying or being wrong.

She recently told someone that there's only one form of cert that they've given out since the 80s. Yet, someone has posted a copy of an entirely different form of a cert he says he got in 1998.

Once again: Okubo says the only form of cert they've given out since the 80s is the same form as that pictured on BHO's sites (one of which has since disappeared).

Yet, there's a picture available online of a much more detailed form of a cert that someone else claims to have received in 1998.

Was Okubo lying, or was she just wrong? Is she actually an expert on their procedures, or just a frequently-confused front person?

[24AheadDotCom]

Isaac Bartram falsely accuses all those labeled as "birthers" of believing the same things.

Does the reader find any of Isaac Bartram's characterizations at my link above? (the answer is, of course, no).

[Silentz]

In other conspiracy news, NASA plans on taking pictures of the Apollo 11 landing site with their new Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter. Everybody get out your PhotoshopFake Detectors!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533536,00.html

It seems the wingnuts will have all kinds of stuff to do in the next few weeks.

[J sub D]

Criminy LoneDipShit -
Are you a masochist seeking abuse at a site for adults because you just can;t afford the Latina dominatrix you yearn for?

[John]

The birther arguement is that if you are a US citizen born abroad, you can get a birth certificate that says you are born in that state. Lets say your mother is visting family in Canada and goes into labor and you are born in a Canadian hospital. It is a pain in the ass to try to do things like get a social security card or enroll in school with a foreign birth certficate. So what states do is let the parents register and get a birth certificate in that state just like the kid was born there, provided of course that the parents are residents of that state.

So the argument is that Obama's mother was visiting Kenya planning the destruction of Western Civilization and had Obama (some versions of this give the birth as occuring as a part of vodoo right where the devil himself participated but I digress). Her being a resident of Hawaii and not wanting to screw with getting a Kenyan birth certificate or having to explain to schools and such that no her kid really is a citizen, goes back to Hawaii, explains the situation and gets a Hawaian birth certificate.

This is a situation that really does happen in real life. My question is when you get a birth certificate in a state for a foreign born baby, what is listed as the place of birth for that baby? I think it is at least possible, but unlikly, that state officials fudge the place of birth for the ease of record keeping and to abide by the rule that birth certificates are only issued for babies born in that state. But I don't know.

For the record I am not a birther. But I think Reason ought to get the argument right. The birthers are not argueing that the certificate is fake, just not acurate.

[Joel]

do you think I'd just start making things up? Do you think I'm easily confused?

Are these serious questions?

[IceTrey]

The problem with Okubo's statement is that Hawaii would issue a birth certificate upon affirmation by a relative. In other words for example if a baby was born in Hawaii, at home, a year later you could go to the government and say "I affirm that this baby was born here in Honolulu" and you would get a BC saying that.

[David Weigel]

Weigel commits the common slander that no Democrat is responsible for the whackos on the left but every Republican is responsible for the whackos on the Right.

Dude, read the article. Did 10 Democratic members of Congress sponsor a bill asking the president to provide proof that he didn't knock down the WTC?

[Dave Weigel]

The problem with Okubo's statement is that Hawaii would issue a birth certificate upon affirmation by a relative.

No, it wouldn't. Here's the statute. Only legal guardians can request birth certificates, and the state can ask for any proof that its investigators want.

[Jaybird]

Weigel, did you record the conversation?

Could you post it to youtube?

Thanks.

[Seitz]

John,

Asked:
My question is when you get a birth certificate in a state for a foreign born baby, what is listed as the place of birth for that baby?

And Answered:
"If you were born in Bali, for example," Okubo explained, "you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate.

As for LoneDipshit:

She cannot, under HI law, reveal anything on a certificate. And, that would include verifying what's on a certificate.

She didn't, you fucking moron. She explained how information gets on to the COLB. Since Obama's COLB is publicly available, one can infer what is on his actual long form birth certificate. She didn't "reveal" anything that wasn't already public information.

Though it's funny how much effort he'll spend trying to prove that Obama isn't a citizen, yet accepts without question a statement from some douchebag who "claimed" to WingNut Daily that he received his long form certificate in 1998. Hell, even his source for the information thinks its possible that the guy is lying.

[John]

"Dude, read the article. Did 10 Democratic members of Congress sponsor a bill asking the president to provide proof that he didn't knock down the WTC?"

Ten out of how many 100 Republican members in congress? Further, last I looked Cyncian McKinney was in Congress when she endorsed trutherism. If I looked hard enough, I am sure I could find lots of crazy out of the mainstream things that at least 10 Democratic members in Congress have endorsed. But you will never hold the Democrats responsible for those views. Face it Dave, there is no sin that you don't find to be a scourge to the Republicans and excusable for Democrats. Joe Boyle was more fair minded than you.

[John]

Thanks Seitz,

So the birthers are left with the claim that the Obama family lied to Hawaii to get his certificate to show that he was born in Hawaii. This seems pretty unlikly. Why would they? If anything, they would be less likly to lie about it than other people. His mother was a communist anti-American whackjob. I am quite sure in their circles it was considered cool or even admirable to have your kid be born overseas instead of in the belly of the American beast. I can think of no possible motivation for the family to lie about his place of birth. But, maybe Lonewhacko can.

[BigGuy]

I LOVE IT!!!

After all these months of 24AheadDotCom shrieking his challenge to Dave Weigel to call Janice Okubo, he called her and she confirmed what he's been telling us all along.

Good old 24AheadDotCom is squirming like mad. It's a beautiful thing to see.

Let's see if he continues with his lies.

[Isaac Bartram]

John, it isn't hard to get SS cards for children with foreign birth certificates as long as there is no dispute as to either their citizenship or immigration status.

I don't know exactly who registers the births of their foreign born children back home. Nobody I know has, not even the Vice-Consul I spoke to at the US Consulate in Toronto who had four kids each born in different countries.

It is a good idea to report the birth to the nearest Consulate, however, as this will help to avoid any disputes as to citizenship later.

[moman]

24

Don't take this as an ad hom. Take it as advice from someone in the business of web design. Drop the bold face. It makes you seem hysterical.

[John]

"I don't know exactly who registers the births of their foreign born children back home. Nobody I know has, not even the Vice-Consul I spoke to at the US Consulate in Toronto who had four kids each born in different countries."

I talked to some people in USCIS and I am told some people do. Also, I think a foreign birth certificate was a bigger pain in the ass in the past than it is now. Now you get a SS number at birth. You didn't used to until you were old enough to work. Until then, your birth certificate was your primary means of identification. Now, you have a Social Security Card so there is less need.

[Isaac Bartram]

Isaac Bartram falsely accuses all those labeled as "birthers" of believing the same things.

O, really. Actually, no, I specifically identified two distinct types of insane peoplebirthers without excluding any other possible variations of insane peoplebirthers that might exist.

Hey, when you're making shit up or distorting facts there are endless variations on how to do it. 🙂

[twistedmerkin]

Joe Boyle was more fair minded than you.

I nominate any reference to joe be added to the drinking game. I'm ready to get fucked up.

[Isaac Bartram]

So the birthers are left with the claim that the Obama family lied to Hawaii to get his certificate to show that he was born in Hawaii.

More than that. Having gotten this bonanza of the fraudulent birth registration forty-plus years before Obama and his campaign officials perjured themselves on election affidavits in all of the fifty[-seven] states. 🙂

Furthermore, while officials of the HI Dept of Health are barred from giving out private info, I'm fairly sure that anyone with knowledge of this kind of alleged wrongdoing (ie anyone who had seen the purported original registration form) could quite legally report it to the approriate authorities (the Atty-Gen of HI, perhaps?) for investigation. Indeed they might possible be legally required to. Could be wrong though.

Besides does anyone really believe that if there were anything to this the Clinton Machine wouldn't have found it?

[R C Dean]

So the birthers are left with the claim that the Obama family lied to Hawaii to get his certificate to show that he was born in Hawaii. This seems pretty unlikly. Why would they?

To make it that much harder for his Kenyan father in a custody fight?

I know, its a stretch.

Only legal guardians can request birth certificates, and the state can ask for any proof that its investigators want.

That seems . . . weak.

Seriously, somewhere on file is the actual birth certificate. Those things are permanently archived. Why leave the door open to all this back-and-forth about the state issued affirmation? Why not just release the real one?

Besides does anyone really believe that if there were anything to this the Clinton Machine wouldn't have found it?

To me, that's the killer argument.

[John]

"Seriously, somewhere on file is the actual birth certificate. Those things are permanently archived. Why leave the door open to all this back-and-forth about the state issued affirmation? Why not just release the real one?"

That is the bizzare question. The facimilies touted by the media really don't end the issue. The actual no kidding raised seal copy of the birth certificate on file in Hawaii really does end the issue. I don't understand why they don't produce it. It makes no sense. Then there are wierd things like the Army refusing to file charges against the Florida Reservist who refused to deploy based on objections to Obama's birth certificate. Any reservist who refuses to deploy ought to be prosecuted, especially those who do for dopey reasons like Obama's birth certificate.

In the end though, I just can't believe that if any of this were true, the Clintons wouldn't have leaked the real birth certificate shortly after BO's 2004 convention speech when it became apparent he had a shot in 2008.

[James Ard]

If the Clinton Machine and the Chicago Machine are one in the same, as I suspect, then you could understand why it never came out. Or you could also say, if this is all a false flag diversion, who other than the Clintons would come up with it? This is the conspiracy thread, right?

[James Ard]

Wow, I just considered LW could really be a fake.

[Timon19]

All this thread needs now is Dave W (not Weigel, the semi-Truther commenter) telling us how Flight 93 was ordered by Cheney to be shot down by a dinosaur in an F-15.

[John]

It is an interesting thought experiment to imagine it being true. If definitive proof arrived in the mail tommorow showing BO was born in Kenya, what would you do with it? How would people react? What a mess. I could imagine that some people would burn it for the good of the country and avoiding a Constitutional crisis or the horror of Joe Biden being President.

[24AheadDotCom]

Here's the law against revealing information.

If Weigel got Okubo to verify that what they have on file matches what's on BHO's site (one of which was taken offline recently), then she's broken that law.

If she didn't verify that there's an exact match, then Weigel did nothing but mislead again. As it is now, the "COLB" is actually just a picture on a webpage. It's not the actual paper document that's been verified with the state or that's been shown to, say, a panel of judges working with accredited document experts.

[Isaac Bartram]

John, I must confess that I've gotten to the point where I can't imagine Biden being worse that BO.

I really wanted to like Obama, but than was back when I thought he would govern from the center like Clinton.

We can only hope that some good young turk republicans like the class of 94 (only with some real desire for small government) can take at least the House in '10.

Divided government and some opposition to this overreach is what we need.

As I've said before, there are plenty of good sane reasons to hate Obama. Imagining paranoid fantasies isn't necessary.

[BigGuy]

24 still squirming, squirming, squirming!

Janice Okubo revealed nothing about the contents of Obama's vital records.

What she said was that Hawaii only issues COLBs that say people were born in Honolulu to people who were born in Honolulu.

The truth's a bitch, ain't it?

Come on, squirm some more for us!

[John]

Isaac,

I felt the same way you did. I was circumspect about the election. I figured the Bond markets and the better judgement of the Democratic Party would talk some sense to Obama. And he would do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

I wonder about his psychological makeup. Here is a guy who was abadoned by his deadbeat African father, but seems to idolize him. Here is a guy who was raised by a white family but dumped his white girlfriend out of a desire to be more black and as soon as he got to Chicago started going to Wright's black church. It had to have totally sucked growing up the half breed kid you grand parents are raising because both your parents wouldn't do it. Being rejected by your parents does strange things to you. Some people totally reject everything their parents were. Others totally embrace everything about their parents and try to be just like them in hopes of gaining acceptance. Obama seems to have done the latter and that scares me considering who is parents were.

[Jim Treacher]

I tend to be skeptical, for the simple reason that if it were true, Hillary would be president.

[Seitz]

Why leave the door open to all this back-and-forth about the state issued affirmation? Why not just release the real one?"

I can think of two reasons:

1) Nothing they reveal at this point, short of inventing a time machine to transfer people back to the moment of his birth, will satisfy the psychos. If they release a long form certificate now, it will be attacked as a forgery, and people will say "if it's real, then why didn't they release it before? They've obviously delayed so that they'd have enough time to make a forgery".

2) Why would they want to? It's had no affect on his agenda, and warranted or not, it only makes the base look crazy by association. If your opponents are digging themselves into a hole, keep handing them shovels.

Certainly there's a potential that the birfers gain some sort of purchase, but whoever is making the decisions in the administration don't appear worried about that.

[Mike M.]

As I've said before, there are plenty of good sane reasons to hate Obama. Imagining paranoid fantasies isn't necessary.

That's my take on it as well. Whether Stanley Dunham squeezed him out in Queens Hospital or a mud hut makes no difference now. It's irrelevant and a moot point; the guy is the President and he isn't going anywhere for a while.

It's also a major and unnecessary distraction from the extremely dangerous things this government is trying to shove through as fast as they possibly can, and one that his shills like Weigel are more than happy to use in an effort to distract us all from what's truly important.

[PunditJoe]

Some would prefer to tilt at windmills than to fight nationalization of industry, nationalization of healthcare, and the burdens cap & trade. Make no mistake about it - all this "birther" talk only serves our ideological opponents by sapping energy and credibility from our side.

Do you hear me birthers? Those are not giants you see and you are not helping us by attacking them.

[24AheadDotCom]

Busted!

I just called JaniceOkubo (the spokeswoman in Weigel's article), and she refused to confirm the impression that Weigel is trying to give.

If you trust Weigel's reporting, see the link.

[J sub D]

I nominate any reference to joe be added to the drinking game. I'm ready to get fucked up.

Seconded!

[Doubtful]

busted? you gotta be kidding. weigel never said what you're claiming he said, no wonder okubo refused to confirm it.

what a dork you are!

[Seitz]

For those who don't want to feel like they have to take a shower after clicking one of LoneDipshit's links:

I repeatedly asked her to respond with a "yes" or a "no" as to whether she had verified that there's a match, and she repeatedly responded by noting that she is not the registrar, and that she does not have the authority to verify certificates.

Which is 100% consistent with what she told Weigel. She never claimed to have verified it. Weigel never claimed that she claimed that she verified it. She claimed that "the state" (presumably someone with the authority to do so) must verify that that the COLB accurately reflects the original long form certificate.

So it kinda goes like this:
Lonedipshit: Please verify something that you never claimed!!
Okubo: No
Lonedipshit: A-ha!!

[John]

So Loneacko is stalking some low level bureaucrat in Hawaii? How exactly do you go about confronting that woman?

[R C Dean]

Just to play Dipshit's Advocate here:

So, it sounds to me like Okubo has confirmed that she has never verified the accuracy of the certificate that Hawaii issued. That's hardly a a knock on the birthers, is it?

I agree that this is a complete dead end. No way in a dozen hells would the SCOTUS remove him from office, even if there was incontrovertible evidence that he was born in Soviet Russia of a Polish peasant woman and a Ugandan general and raised by the KGB.

Congress wouldn't remove him if there was footage on YouTube of Obama roasting live puppies while making child bukkake porn.

Still, I find it entertaining.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Oh, Lonewacko...Tsk-tsk.

[JustWondering]

RC -- That's right. I think we all agree it would be illegal for Okubo to make any comment about what's on Obama's birth certificate.

The point of Weigel's conversation with her was to dispel the myth that Hawaii issued Certifications of Live Birth just like Obama's to people born outside the country. She made it clear that that was contrary to their practice.

Is it a knock on the birthers? Well, it's certainly a knock on any of the birthers who claim that a COLB saying you were born in Honolulu doesn't prove that you were born in Honolulu.

[Dave Weigel]

God help me, I clicked on the link. From Lonewacko:

I repeatedly asked Okubo to confirm that she had verified that what's on file matches what's shown on Obama's sites and others.

The Hawaii Department of Health has previously confirmed that image that Obama put on the FightTheSmears site came from the Hawaii Department of Health. They did this during the first wave of the conspiracy theory, when kooks were speculating that the image was forged. It wasn't, so the Lonewackos of the world moved the goalposts and said that this didn't prove that Obama was born in Hawaii. I asked Okubo if the information on this image was consistent with a birth certificate given to someone born in Hawaii. She said it was.

Lonewacko keeps getting proven wrong, and keeps reacting by hounding reasonable people who have better things to do.

[John]

"I asked Okubo if the information on this image was consistent with a birth certificate given to someone born in Hawaii. She said it was."

Of course it is. The things lists Honolulu as the place of birth. That is hardly a revelation. The question is does it accurately represent what the actual but never seen birth certificate says. Lonewacko's claim is that the birth certificate provided by Obama is not acurate and that somewhere in the bowels of the Hawaii archives there is a real one that says he was born in Kenya.

In a sense the Lonewackos are right, that doesn't prove that he was born in Hawaii, it only proves that someone in the government of Hawaii is prepared to swear that the birth certificate they have but won't release says that he was.

Lonewacko apparently asked this woman if she had actually seen the real birth certificate and could verify that yes that is what it said. She said no. She could only verify that yes, this is what a birth certificate from Hawaii looks like and yes it appears that the state says he was born in Hawaii not Kenya. But that begs the question of who in the State Government has actually seen the birth certificate and swearing to what it actually says and if they are lying.

Jesus Dave. I am not a birther but you are doing an incredibly shitty job responding to this guy.

[24AheadDotCom]

Weigel: you're lying. The DOH has never once said what you imagine them saying. Let's see your original source for that claim with them definitively stating what you claim. Not: that doesn't include ambiguous statements, and by original source I mean not a source like FactCheck or Snopes(!).

Let's see the original, unambiguous source.

If you can't provide that, you're lying (again).

[Art-P.O.G.]

I should clarify the reason I'm chiding LoneWacko...he keeps giving a certain reefer-mad avian awesome ammunition for hilarious satire.

Also, dude moves the goalposts all the time, seems to have wicked confirmation bias while also seemingly unaware of any of his biases at all.

[Art-P.O.G.]

24, I didn't realize you had the credibility to call anyone else unreliable.

Looks like I'll have to radically adjust my worldview.

[24AheadDotCom]

John writes: Lonewacko's claim is that the birth certificate provided by Obama is not acurate and that somewhere in the bowels of the Hawaii archives there is a real one that says he was born in Kenya.

Obviously, John has the same reading problems as Weigel. I have never once said that the cert provided by BHO (as a picture on a webpage or supposedly in paper form to FactCheck) "is not accurate".

My claim is that we don't know.

There's a world of difference between those two that incredibly obvious to me. I understand how different people have different capabilities, but if you can't figure out the difference then perhaps you should leave discussions of this matter to those who can.

[John]

Lonewhacko,

If the birth certificate provided by Obama is acurate, the argument is over. You by necessity must claim it is inaccurate or that there is a good probablility it is or you are just wasting people's time.

[24AheadDotCom]

Also, despite all the smears launched by Weigel, BenSmith, and their fellow hacks, my goal with this isn't to prove that BHO isn't eligible; I think there's a very great chance that he is.

My goals are two-fold:

1. Discredit MSM reporters who've lied about this issue. I'm going after bigger fish than Weigel, but he keeps getting in the way.

2. And, of much less importance, get BHO to release his other records. I have a feeling that there must be something he doesn't want to reveal. That is simply my impression, and, to make this clear to the BHO cultists, I'm not making any claims in that regard.

[Art-P.O.G.]

I have a feeling that there must be something he doesn't want to reveal.

You think a politician has something to cover up? You're crazy, man.

[24AheadDotCom]

John: Is the first picture here valid? If you say it is, how do you know? Has it been verified by the issuing agency? Has it been modified before being put on the web? How do you know?

Isn't there the possibility that the first picture was modified? That's a yes or no question: isn't there that possibility?

OK, now doesn't the same possibility apply to the second picture?

In fact, both could have been modified, and the probability of that depends on your level of trust in the source.

In other words - try and wrap your mind around this - you're going on faith and not the facts. If hacks like Weigel simply admitted that, there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is when they present something as fact when it's based on faith.

[David Weigel]

Lonewacko - The 10/31/08 letter from Chiyome Fukino.

I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai'i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai'i.

You're pissed off that the state didn't add a redundant statement about how the Certification of Live Birth that reproduces the vital information on the original birth certificate is, indeed, a Certification of Live Birth that reproduces the vital information on the original birth certificate. I get that. You're not very smart and you like to yell at people on the Internet. Hey, to each his own.

[Art-P.O.G.]

In other words - try and wrap your mind around this - you're going on faith and not the facts. If hacks like Weigel simply admitted that, there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is when they present something as fact when it's based on faith.

I didn't realize you were a philosopher, 24. How far does your interest in epistemology extend, LW?

[John]

DAve,

That is a wierd letter. It doesn't really say anything. It says the following:

1. The state of hawaii has his original birth certificate and maintains it in accordance with proper records and procedures, and

2. No one has ever instructed that the birth certificate be handled in any manner different from procedure.

There are a couple of problems there. First, strcitly speaking, producing an inaccurate official copy is not handling the birth certificate. Handling it in accordance with regulations seems to mean that you keep it in the right place in the right manner. It can, but doesn't have to relate to providing acurate copies of it to the public.

Second and more importantly, it only says that he never instructed anyone to handle it improperly. So what? That says nothing about the accuracy of the birth certificate produced to the public. It only says that if it is inaccurate, it wasn't because he or any of hte people listed ever instructed anyone to do it.

Thta letter proves nothing. Why the hell did they write a letter with so many equivications. Why not just say "we have the original birth certificate, I have seen it, and the copy generally available to the public is accurate"? Again, it makes no sense.

[24AheadDotCom]

Dave Weigel: FIND A FRIGGING LAWYER

No, seriously: FIND A FRIGGING LAWYER

Don't worry: I'm not going to sue you. You just don't understand what that HI statement says and doesn't say. A LAWYER CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.

They don't even have to be such a great lawyer. Anyone with any sort of legal training will realize that the HI statement does not say what you think it says.

[IceTrey]

Dave Weigel,

That statute is for babies born out of state. I was talking about babies born in Hawaii. In 1961, for a baby born some place besides a hospital, in order to obtain a Hawaiian locale BC required nothing more than the testimony of a witness to the birth. All of that of course is moot since the simple fact that his father was a foreigner makes Obama ineligible to be POTUS.

[David Weigel]

From one of John's posts:

In a sense the Lonewackos are right, that doesn't prove that he was born in Hawaii, it only proves that someone in the government of Hawaii is prepared to swear that the birth certificate they have but won't release says that he was.

"Maybe the government of Hawaii is lying to everyone" is not a serious argument. The Lonewackos are continually moving the goalposts here - remember, Hawaii only got involved in the first place because people were "proving" that the COLB image at Obama's fact-check site was an internet forgery. Once Hawaii debunked that and stood by the image, people started "proving" that the COLB could have belonged to someone who wasn't born in Hawaii. And now Hawaii has debunked that, so the Lonewackos will argue that Hawaii is lying. I guarantee that if Hawaii opened the vault and let reporters take photos of the original certificate, the Lonewackos would set about "proving" that this was a hoax.

One question I like to throw into these threads - why don't any Birthers do some investigative work and find out if Stanley Ann Dunham traveled out of Hawaii while pregnant? It's been a year since these rumors began, and no one in Hawaii or anywhere else has ever suggested that. Kenya's an anglophone nation, and I doubt everyone there has an in-depth knowledge of American citizenship law. And yet no one in that country has ever said "hey, check out this hospital/house/village where Barack Obama was born!"

That's what always throws me about this. There's never been any reason to believe that Obama's parents left Hawaii during the pregnancy. No contemporary sources, no interviews with people who knew them, nothing. Seems like the kind of thing you'd want to get a shred of evidence about before assuming that the Hawaiian government is lying to everyone.

[John]

Dave,

Understand I am not a birther and don't agree with Lonewacko. I just find some people's behavior in this very curious. As far as where his mother was at the time of his birth, that might be hard to find. It has been almost 50 years. But you could find out where his father was. His father is an alien and has an alien file with the old CIS. It is sitting in a cave near Kansas City Missouri. Since his father his dead, there is no privacy isssues. One could file a freedom of information act request for it. That file would tell you every time Obama's father entered and left the country and by implication whether he was in the country when Obama was born. If he was not, that would at least be some evidence in Lonewacko's favor. If he was, that would put the issue to bed almost as well as the actual birth cirtificate. I am tempted to FOIA the damned thing myself if for no other reason than to make this issue go away.

[24AheadDotCom]

Let me be very frank. I've gone easy on Weigel because, after I saw video of him, I immediately realized he's not exactly John McCain, in the POW sense. Weigel would break in two seconds.

I don't want him to break, but if he's going to keep lying - and quite possibly smearing me behind a fake name - then I'm not about to pull any punches.

In the current case, Weigel is lying yet again. I spotted more than I want to correct. But, does anyone with any sense think that HI's statement that BHO has a cert on file mean that the cert shown on his site matches the one on file? They're forbidden by law from verifying the cert on BHO's site, and they've repeatedly stated that they're forbidden by law from verifying the cert, but hacks like Weigel pretend they've verified the cert? Does that make sense to anyone?

Look, Weigel is just a hack for hire, currently blogging for a pseudo-paper funded by Soros and Rockefeller. He's not about to go against their grain.

[Kreel Sarloo]

All of that of course is moot since the simple fact that his father was a foreigner makes Obama ineligible to be POTUS.

Bullshit!!!

[Isaac Bartram]

In fact not just bullshit, but utter bullshit.

Anyone born in the USA is a natural born citizen regardless of the citizenship of his or her parents.

So are a bunch of people born outside the borders of the USA depending on the various laws in effect at the time.

This is what is so beautiful about "birthers".

There is no level of ignorance or stupidity they will not display.

The most perfect entertainment.

[Isaac Bartram]

IceTrey

Seriously, man, do you really think that if your bullshit doctrine "his father was a foreigner makes Obama ineligible" were a fact that Hillary wouldn't have gotten it excercised faster than you can say "you ugly cunt"?

I mean, that's even dumber than Lonejerkoff's "evil illuminati started a conspiracy to place the unborn prince on the American throne before he was even born".

The fact is that the only reason the "both parents must be citizens" shit is in the court case opinion your moron friends cite is to dismiss it out of hand as a legal doctrine.

[Britney]

nice kid..
___________________
Britney
Entertainment at one stop

[IceTrey]

Hillary didn't know what the definition of "natural born citizen" is. Not many people do. You don't.

[Isaac Bartram]

Wow.

As I've said, the only reason I get involved in this is for the comedy.

And the NBCers are the funniest birthers of all.

[Mike M.]

Look, Weigel is just a hack for hire, currently blogging for a pseudo-paper funded by Soros and Rockefeller. He's not about to go against their grain.

Wow, I had no idea that the Center for Independent Media was really just a Soros sockpuppet, but after doing the research it sure looks true.

It seems like they originally came out of Media Matters for America, and even had offices right next to each other for quite some time, but then moved further apart from each other when people started catching on. CIMs listed donors is a who's who of big leftist supporting foundations, and their linkroll down at the bottom right of the page links to most of the big lefty websites.

Weigel is the sort of guy who fits in with an organization like this perfectly.

[Apostate Jew]

The president and his minions ignore the citizenship argle-bargle because it (1) gives supporters a reason to be dismissive of every other argument of opponents and (2) makes those opponents who are associated in any way with the "birthers" look foolish. Why not give your opponents every opportunity to wound themselves?

The motion to add mentions of Joe P. Boyle to the drinking game is approved.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Fuck this.

Jesse Walker asks Lonewacko ToughQuestions.

He ignores them.

I ask Lonewacko ToughQuestions.

He ignores them.

It makes one wonder what LoneWacko has to hide...

The motion to add mentions of Joe P. Boyle to the drinking game is approved.

Motion carried. But what if he actually shows up again? Drink!

[Jesse Walker]

The comment where Lonewacko accused someone else of having poor reading comprehension skills was pretty funny. Especially coming on the heels of the comment where he objected to a guilt-by-association argument. What's next? Is he going to start attacking people for failing to use the space bar?

[David Weigel]

I think Lonewacko's libelous assertion that a random, crude commenter at Matt Yglesias's blog is me in disguise is a perfect comment on his fact-checking skills, and the perfect way to end this thread.

[Geotpf]

IceTrey | July 17, 2009, 7:08pm | #

All of that of course is moot since the simple fact that his father was a foreigner makes Obama ineligible to be POTUS.

If one is born on US soil, one is a "natural born citizen" automatically, no matter if one, or even both, of his or her parents aren't citizens. A real world example that happens every day is a child is born of a man and woman who are both illegal immigrants from Mexico. That child, if born inside the United States, is automatically a US citizen.

[Max]

The reason why Hillary Clinton didn't use Obama's foreign birth against him is that Obama threatened to release the details of Vince Foster's murder.

I love my country but I fear my nigger terrorist muslim president.

[nairobi]

Big difference.

John McCain brought his issue up right away and he submitted his birth certificate without having to be subpoenaed. And there is absolutely no way John McCain would have been inaugurated without a copy of his actual birth certificate on file.

And his school records...and his medical records...

[Oliver Willis]

If John McCain had won the presidency, we'd be hearing the same thing, albeit from (mostly) different people.
Well, you know, McCain's birthplace was just as big as an issue as Obama's was during the election. Oh, it wasn't? You mean the formerly semi-intelligent Matt Welch is just extricating this stuff from his butt? Oh, I see.

[Clay]

This issue is poision. First, Hawaii only issues the "certificates of live birth" that Obama has shown... since 2001. If you lost your original and need a new one, the one Obama produced is all you will get. That state law in Hawaii.

Second, the reason you don't hear Gibbs and others shouting this from the roof tops is to keep it going... anyone who takes up this issue can then be labled a tinfoil hat wearing goofball and have zero credibility. Thats probley why they try to keep it out of courts as well... the more we repeat this "show me the birth certificate" claim, the easier it is to equate tea partiers and obama oposers with black helicopter seeing nuts.

Its over, its a valid, VERY valid question, but its been anwsered. Hawaii dosn't issue the type of certificate you want to see... the one he has is what you get, pure and simple.

This issue will vaporize the credability of anyone who touches it... please stop it now!

[ShawninPhx]

"If John McCain had won the presidency, we'd be hearing the same thing, albeit from (mostly) different people."

Really Mr. Welch? Do you really believe this? When I recently asked my mother to tell me where John McCain - our Senator for umpteen years - was born she said the US. She had no idea he was born in Panama. She also voted for B.H. Obama.

The 'birther' movement of the Rep. party only cements my move from it. With Clinton it was Vince Foster, but I put up with it, but I can't put up with the crap that has come out in the last few years. They have completely and utterly lost me. I'm tired of the whipped up hysteria and conspiracy theories this so-called party has to offer. Unfortunately, it's the only thing they have to offer.

Also, this is why I never renewed my Reason subscription and stopped giving to the foundation. Not because I see this as a partisan issue, but because libertarians should be arguing that birth place doesn't matter. Why the hell should we care where someone is born if they have taken an oath to uphold our Constitution? Open borders and free movement.

[henry]

So, to summarize:

The angry, delusional nuts that now form the base of the GOP are really eager to see PRESIDENT Biden?

Oh good Christ.