Can The Farmers and Cap-And-Trade Be Friends?
The Wash Post's Steven Pearlstein lays into the ways in which the ag industry boondoggled cap-and-trade:
Farmers demanded that they be allowed to earn some extra cash by reducing the carbon footprint on their farms and selling these "offsets" to the factories and power plants unlucky enough to be subject to the carbon-cap regime. They want to be paid extra if they change the feedstock to cut down on cow burps and farts. Or if they use the no-till method for planting seeds, which doesn't release the carbon trapped in the soil. Or if they put in devices to trap the methane released from animal poop.
And they demanded to be paid not just if they do these things in the future, but also if they did them last year or the year before. They demanded the payments even if they are already getting a check from the government to do the same things as part of some other conservation program. And perhaps most notably, they demanded that the job of supervising this offset program be shifted from the Environmental Protection Agency, whose focus would actually be ensuring that the reductions are real, to the Department of Agriculture, which sees its mission as preserving, protecting and defending American farm subsidies….
There was also an ethanol boondoggle to protect.
It seems those pesky scientists over at the EPA had done a preliminary analysis showing that if you considered the indirect effects of producing a lot of additional corn-based ethanol -- like the need to make up for the lost food production somewhere else -- then ethanol might not qualify as a carbon-reducing "renewable fuel" under the 2007 energy bill, potentially jeopardizing ethanol's guaranteed market of 15 billion gallons a year. To rectify this gross injustice, Elmer demanded—and won —a five-year moratorium on any final determination while a study is conducted on how the EPA was conducting its study.
Pearlstein notes that even with more sweeteners than a gallon of high-fructose corn syrup dumped into the mix, farm lobbyists were still urging a "no" vote on cap-and-trade because it would still cost farmers a plugged nickel or something. Pearlstein, like Paul Krugman (who declaimed congressmen voting "no" as guilty of planetary treason), is in favor of cap-and-trade. Which strikes me as weird coming from a guy who has just detailed what a load of sweetheart deals and compromises the legislation is larded up with. By every account, this bill is so filled with deals to buy off any possible disagreement that it is simply one more taxpayer-funded giveaway at a time when we can afford as little largess as possible.
Reason.tv called bullshit on ethanol in this memorable video:
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Now, if honest members of the right were to support cap and trade in principle, and work to pass a clean bill, I would give you guys some credit.
Instead, you oppose cap and trade in any form, forcing all the vote buying crap to be added in order to get it passed....and then condemn the crap that is a direct and obvious consequence of your opposition to the core policy.
Duh.
I call this the "We should kill it because we broke it" argument, and I find it to be one of the most despicable lines of argument out there.
I will admit, though, that handling emissions related to farming are probably one of the toughest types to handle. Emissions due to fossil fuel use are fairly straightforward, as almost all fossil fuels pass through a few choke-points and can be readily measured there. Emissions related to farming are substantial but more dispersed, and can be challenging to regulate. This should definitely be placed in the hands of the EPA.
> I will admit, though, that handling emissions related to farming are probably one of the toughest types to handle.
What, pass up a chance to use my favorite Homer Simpson line?
"That could be *anybody's* pig crap silo!"
Instead, you oppose cap and trade in any form, forcing all the vote buying crap to be added in order to get it passed....and then condemn the crap that is a direct and obvious consequence of your opposition to the core policy.
Methane releasing bullshit!
Democrats "forced all the vote buying crap" to pass the bill because they couldn't get the majority they needed otherwise. Just because I hate you and you cut off both your legs to get sympathy from others doesn't mean that I forced you to cut off your legs.
If Democrats would have done some of that bipartisan thing they are always talking about and tried to work with Republicans to come up with a fair and sensible way to transition into cleaner energy - such as making it market-viable first...just a thought - then they wouldn't have had to buy votes.
Then I suppose Chad has never criticized GWB's spending, or the energy bills, or the farm bills, or the highway spending, or riders on free-trade agreements, or any of the host of nasty legislation where compromise (and Democratic opposition) resulted in worse bills?
You can't get a majority easily on Capitol Hill to do exactly what you what. But President Obama didn't fight for anything with cap-and-trade; he didn't push against this, he didn't push on auctioning off credits, nothing. He completely abdicated responsibility in this bill. He's the President, he could have fought for something, he could have used his popularity with the American people to get a better bill.
He's as bad as GWB when it comes to refusing to challenge his party in Congress.
Peter Said:
"If Democrats would have done some of that bipartisan thing they are always talking about and tried to work with Republicans to come up with a fair and sensible way to transition into cleaner energy - such as making it market-viable first...just a thought - then they wouldn't have had to buy votes."
Pete,
The irony here is that the rightwing Republicans insisted on the Cap and Trade mechanism back in the 90's. And then betrayed it when it was accepted, and continue to distance themselves from any market based system for managing emissions.
John,
Obama is trying to avoid the error of the Clintons of forcing a premade bill down the throats of congress. That method doesn't work. It's better this way.
gah! Tags
Peter | June 29, 2009, 5:38pm | #
If Democrats would have done some of that bipartisan thing they are always talking about and tried to work with Republicans to come up with a fair and sensible way to transition into cleaner energy - such as making it market-viable first...just a thought - then they wouldn't have had to buy votes.
Peter, the problem is that by "market viable" you probably mean "incurs no costs on anyone, anywhere, anytime". This is direct contradiction to the whole point of the bill, which is precisely to increase the costs of anything that emits carbon.
The reality is that this bill will cost something.
Wait, wut??
Animal manure and flatulence are subject to the cap and trade proposal? So in addition to energy prices going up, food prices go up too?
Holy hell, this is the biggest boondoggle I've ever seen. The details keep getting worse.
Peter | June 29, 2009, 5:38pm | #
Instead, you oppose cap and trade in any form, forcing all the vote buying crap to be added in order to get it passed....and then condemn the crap that is a direct and obvious consequence of your opposition to the core policy.
Methane releasing bullshit!
Democrats "forced all the vote buying crap" to pass the bill because they couldn't get the majority they needed otherwise. Just because I hate you and you cut off both your legs to get sympathy from others doesn't mean that I forced you to cut off your legs.
You mean centrist Democrats in very purple areas who are afraid of losing to Republicans.
On this issue, the middle and far left, along with (strangely enough) a few members on the far right, are correct. It is the middle and Republicans who are mucking it up with pork.
If a respectable minority of Republicans were to put together a CLEAN cap and trade proposal, we might listen to you. But they don't.
ellipsis | June 29, 2009, 6:26pm | #
Wait, wut??
Animal manure and flatulence are subject to the cap and trade proposal? So in addition to energy prices going up, food prices go up too?
Holy hell, this is the biggest boondoggle I've ever seen. The details keep getting worse.
Of course food prices will go up. They are laden with fossil fuels from day one. Get used to eating a lot less meat.
However, one should note that the Cap and Trade you're talking about was for NOx and SOx emissions, where it has worked well. But there is a profound difference; the harmful effects of SOx and NOx are not only relatively quick, but are limited mostly to our own country. The problem with CO2 emissions is that any negative effects are global. If we restrict SOx and NOx, then we still get no acid rain and cleaner skies even if industry moves to China. With CO2, if we unilaterally act, then if industry moves to China and India the planet is just as bad off.
A consumer tax makes more sense than a producer tax (like Cap-and-Trade) for CO2. Cap and trade makes sense for SOX and NOX, before of issues of measurement, and since we're mostly regulating things like electrical power that we don't import anyway.
I don't know, I think that the resultant bill was worse than the status quo. In what way is it "better," except from the perspective that you want to pass something, no matter what it is?
Ok, you know how I know you're just trolling?
Well, maybe. The Democrats are now lauding the fact that, according to the CBO, it won't cost much at all until 2020. That's because the standards get way tighter after then, though. It isn't projected to do much (except create a big horse-trading, rent-seeking bureaucracy) until after 2020, the big reductions are later. Do we think that this promise of virtue later is really going to happen? Or will it be relaxed before the pain hits, like in Europe?
Did even a "respectable" number of Democrats support a CLEAN proposal? Did Europe?
This is direct contradiction to the whole point of the bill, which is precisely to increase the costs of anything that emits carbon.
If the goal is to increase the costs of fossil fuel, the obvious way is to STOP SUBSIDIZING THE PRICE of fossil fuel.
Name a state that isn't setting consumer's rates for electricity. All the rest of them are setting the price artificially low - to stick it those goddamned utility companies that have consumers by the balls - and now empty-skulled jerk-offs like Chad are actually complaining that the prices are too low.
Look out, Chad's having another temper tantrum!
Instead, you oppose cap and trade in any form, forcing all the vote buying crap to be added in order to get it passed.
Do you beat your wife with that logic?
I give you credit, Chad, for admitting that any bill that actually restricts emissions would have costs. Too bad that Democrats, including President Obama, have generally refused to admit that. Yes, the American people deserve a share of the blame for wanting action against global warming without having any pain (and free ponies for everyone), but having pandered their way into office and the majority by promising free rides without tradeoffs (and on health insurance as well), the Democrats deserve opprobrium.
When you have office and the majority, you have the responsibility. Whining about the minority party doesn't cut it. Republicans deserve blame for what they did when they were in charge, even if Democrats were obstructionist.
Democrats and President Obama promised action on climate change coupled with no economic pain. That's impossible. What we got is corporate welfare with the vast majority of the emissions cuts and economic pain postponed until after 2020.
Obama won by a significant margin. Perhaps he could have spent some of that time telling the truth (as McCain did about health insurance taxation) instead of promising free lunches.
Invisible Finger | June 29, 2009, 6:44pm | #
If the goal is to increase the costs of fossil fuel, the obvious way is to STOP SUBSIDIZING THE PRICE of fossil fuel.
That's what the bill does. It is a method for charging CO2 emitters for the right to use other peoples' property as a dumping grounds for their CO2. Hence, this subsidy will be ended.
You really don't get it, do you Chad? Let me explain. Libertarians are not found in the red-blue spectrum. They do not reside on the left-right line. If you had the reading comprehension skills of an average sixth grader you would heve discerned that long ago.
We despise both major parties because they are each 50% anti-freedom.
I will now return you to your regularly scheduled Obama mockfest.
Russ 2000 | June 29, 2009, 6:48pm | #
Look out, Chad's having another temper tantrum!
Naah, I only do this because it is fun to play with you guys. I try to limit the time I spend preaching with the choir.
J sub D | June 29, 2009, 7:11pm | #
You really don't get it, do you Chad? Let me explain. Libertarians are not found in the red-blue spectrum. They do not reside on the left-right line.
Agreed. Libertarians are an odd sort of far right / far left mix. On this issue, you are far right, which is why you get lumped with them with respect to this discussion. Your quest for logical consistency leads you to lie with some awfully strange bedfellows.
John Wrote:
However, one should note that the Cap and Trade you're talking about was for NOx and SOx emissions, where it has worked well.
Mmmno. My recollection was that the CO2 cap and trade provisions of the Kyoto Treaty were introduced at the insistence of the U.S. to get the conservative U.S. Senators on board for ratification. Instead they balked when it came time to do so.
" I think that the resultant bill was worse than the status quo. In what way is it "better," except from the perspective that you want to pass something, no matter what it is?"
The Status Quo is waiting to see what the EPA will do. Who in turn is waiting to see what Congress will do.
If congress effectively chooses to do nothing, It is an easy bet the EPA will do what it thinks is best...which is alot more than the Bush admin would let them.
BUT... EPA action will be frought with massive lawsuits and such fights. A clear congressionally created regulation is better than that, no matter if Cap and Trade is not as good a Carbon Tax.
Personally I like Cap and Trade because it allows for innovative revenue streams not possible with a Carbon Tax.
Dude, this bill will kill 2 million jobs and wont see any real economic growth for another 10 or 20 yrs. They have set aside funds for unemployment because they know their will be a mass exodus of unemployed workers.
This bill enlarges the goverment significantly. Half a million jobs are lost every month and the private sector gets smaller and smaller and the economy get worse and worse. Whatever few private sector co. are left will be taxed to the hilt to cover the growing goverment. Democrats are commiting political suicide. Im a mexican and takes this from a "wise latino". lol! .....Go ahead pass the bill and republicans will hang it over your heads for years.
So are you being charged for breathing out?
What property are people dumping CO2 onto, Chad? Is the atmosphere your property or something?
Please don't couch this in terms of property rights, because you're completely off the reservation in that area. The tort system already deals with actual trespasses to people's property by chemicals and other actually harmful agents. By your logic, my tree is being polluted by you every time you breathe out. Good golly.
Mex-Am,
Could you please back up your claim. Thanks.
Neither FactCheck nor PolitiFact cover that angle (not obviously anyway):
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jun/25/your-guide-cap-and-trade/
http://www.factcheck.org/politics/cap-and-trade_cost_inflation.html
"So are you being charged for breathing out? "
the issue is with Fossil Carbon being dumped to the Atmosphere, not with breathing.
O RLY? I believe the concern is with CO2, is it not? I've never heard any differentiation.
I think Chad is joe trolling us while whacked on Xanax.
"O RLY? I believe the concern is with CO2, is it not? I've never heard any differentiation."
Now you have.
I dunno, Chad's kind of over the top, even for joe. I'm voting he's a Reason staff-member playing to the cheap seats for more comment generation.
Sam-Hec - setting that aside, this still has nothing to do with Chad's original contention that this is somehow closing a nonexistent subsidy to pollute that currently exists. It isn't about that at all.
"Can The Farmers and Cap-And-Trade Be Friends?"
Thanks.
It was a defacto subsidy as the economic services of the natural world were not being taken into account.
In theory...now the cap-n-trade bill will take those climate services into account.
Separately, for over a century, fossil fuels had more direct and obvious subsidies and other market protections from the our governments. Which have only served to make the problem worse.
there exists no such thing as a "de facto" subsidy. Is it one or not? And what does "the economic services of the natural world" even mean?
We despise both major parties because they are each 50% anti-freedom.
Only 50%!? Damn, I want whatever JsubD's smoking (or are you on some kind of happy-pills?) today because that's some good stuff!
"there exists no such thing as a "de facto" subsidy. Is it one or not? And what does "the economic services of the natural world" even mean?"
Allegedly, at least 33 trillion dollars. That means the 'de facto' value of air to breath, water to drink and for crops, pollinated plants, a stable(ish) climate, etc. Try providing that for your family just out of your own earnings, and no help from Mom. Looking at the ISS, those things aren't cheap.
oh, I didn't know that somehow, AGW and a cap-and-trade were going to provide clean water and air. I thought it was about global warming.
Which is it, Sam-Hec? Look, dude, no one here has a huge problem with fixing identifiable problems like acid raid and the like, but you're not making any sense.
*mitigated by cap-and-trade
Which will raise energy prices.
An allegation that has not been proven.
Actually, it is possible.
Read about the TTAPS study. Also look up The Cold and the Dark: The World After Nuclear War
"oh, I didn't know that somehow, AGW and a cap-and-trade were going to provide clean water and air. I thought it was about global warming."
You asked, "And what does "the economic services of the natural world" even mean?"" So I answered.
Cap and Trade isn't going to provide clean water and air (not it's job); but in the subset of Natural services, it is a good beginning at taking into account the Natural Service/economic value of a Stable Comfortable Climate.
"An allegation that has not been proven."
Obsessions with PROOF will get you nowhere in life (unless you are a mathemtician). The $ figure is an Estimate.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071205131149.htm
so, I'm still waiting for that subsidy number. saying that "allowing CO2 emissions" is a subsidy is akin to saying that "allowing fucking" is a subsidy for children.
That subsidy number (assuming the 19th global climate was the Ideal; wrongheaded I know, but it was still pretty good compared to Ice ages and transitional climates), is the cost of sequestering all fossil carbon ever released from the smokestack/tailpipe. I've no idea what the exact number is.
Note that at some point in time, e.g. Little Ice age, some added radiative conservation from CO2 would have been welcome.
"It is the middle and Republicans who are mucking it up with pork."
The middle always mucks things up with pork, it's part of the definition of "middle". It is a direct consequence of being weakly influenced by ideology and principle, the Representative who has no clear idea of what he's doing and why is going to be the first to put his vote up for sale when the outcome seems close.
The reason that "cap and trade" is close is that enough in Congress are aware how economically destructive this thing is. Not just in the direct costs but the indirect costs of dealing with a bureaucracy that has a massive mandate to interfere with just about everthing you do economically. "Cap and Trade" is a pure example of the type of law that enables what Rand called the "economics of pull", there will be massive corruption if this thing actually gets enacted as companies try to use influence to mitigate the more onerous aspects of the law.
"the issue is with Fossil Carbon being dumped to the Atmosphere, not with breathing."
If the bill includes provisions for charging farmers for livestock flatulence, then the issue is not merely Fossil Carbon.
"In theory...now the cap-n-trade bill will take those climate services into account."
No, they won't. The costs imposed by cap and trade will have no relation, directly or indirectly, with whatever costs CO2 imposes on the enviroment, the connection only exists in the minds of cap and trade's supporters, as they do not know what the real cost is.
"If the bill includes provisions for charging farmers for livestock flatulence, then the issue is not merely Fossil Carbon."
I was speaking generally, and even then conventional agriculture is highly dependent on fossil fuels directly and indirectly. Separately managing the climate deals with tradable "CO2 equivalent" credits.
Also IIRC the flatulence provision was dropped due to lobbying.
"No, they won't."
As it stands, you are correct; this bill mostly just advances efficiency, and not much else. But, this is still necessary groundwork for getting to the point where that relation is reached.
Once we get to that relation, we are that much closer to being a Level 1 Civilization (Kardashev scale) 😉 That's my angle betw, screw Gaia.
er...
'Separately, the management of the climate deals with...'
I typed too fast.
...and this keyboard is not so good.
If the cost of killing cap and trade is all the farm subsidies we've paid out, then I for one say it was a good deal. It's the way-cheaper option.
But that won't happen. The Farm subsidies go through the Farm Bill, not this one.
I'd love to kill farm subsidies too, as it impedes our ability to adapt to the coming climate chaos we have committed to already.
Basically, we have to get farmers to fight the farm bills.
Well, the main farm subsidies. The ethanol farm subsidies go through this bill, and energy bills. And note that this bill has large parts its farm offsets and credits administered through the USDA.
Not enough Dick Lugars for that. What you need is for urban Democrats to stop voting for the farm bills, as they did on the last one (overriding GWB's veto), in exchange for pitiful increases in food stamps that are only necessary because the farm subsidies (by being price supports) increase the price of food.
Fine. I'll say that anything that government can do to mitigate climate change that the market wouldn't do already involves economic pain. Obviously, yes, the market has incentives to conserve, as any look at the data will show you. Going beyond that involves economic pain in the vast majority of cases, by raising prices in order to reallocate resources into something else besides existing energy sources. Yes, there's some theoretical market failure in the case of research, but government-sponsored research suffers from massive inefficiency as well. Tends to pick winners in a bad way, like ethanol.
What, inducing nuclear winter by having a nuclear war wouldn't involve economic pain? I suppose this is more a general geoengineering plea, though.
That's not a subsidy. That's not even an externality, where we would measure any negative and positive effects of releasing that CO2 that aren't properly accounted for by those releasing it. (There are some positive, since growing seasons lengthen in Russia, Canada, the northern US.)
That's the cost of undoing a decision once you've done it and restoring things to the status quo ante, or the cost of mitigating the externality. But if the cost of mitigating the externality is greater than the costs of the externality, you shouldn't mitigate. And if the positive benefits of emitting CO2 is greater than the minimum of the net externality costs or the cost of mitigation, you should emit.
This is as retarded as saying that you like a really complicated tax code because it creates jobs for accountants. Please stop committing the Broken Window Fallacy.
"The conservative US Senators?" Hell, it failed to get any US Senators on board for ratification.
Claiming that because Al Gore (who led the negotiations) insisted on Cap and Trade because he thought it would get conservative Senators on board when the treaty he negotiated failed to get any Senators on board is a hell of a lot different from saying that "rightwing Repbulicans insisted" on such a provision. Especially since moderates and liberals all voted against Kyoto as well.
That's why I thought you were referring to the Cap and Trade for SOx and NOx, which were introduced by the Bush pere Administration over the loud complaints by the Left, and cheered by conservatives as superior to command-and-control.
Detonating the weapons at testing sites will suffice.
Still not without some economic pain (the cost of producing and using the weapons), although I guess we have extras, so we've already spent the money to develop the weapons, and they have to be maintained.
It's not costless.
The cost is far less than cap-and-trade.