Economics

When Bernie Met Milton Or, In Case You Were Wondering If Bernie Sanders Is Still a Socialist

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From Reason Contributing Editor Dave Weigel comes this In These Times link, in which Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont lays into Milton Friedman:

In today's political and social reality, the University of Chicago's establishment of a $200 million Milton Friedman Institute (in the building that has long housed the renowned Chicago Theological Seminary) will not be perceived as simply a sign of appreciation for a prominent former faculty member. Instead, by founding such an institution, the university signals that it is aligning itself with a reactionary political program supported by the wealthiest, greediest and most powerful people and institutions in this country. Friedman's ideology caused enormous damage to the American middle class and to working families here and around the world. It is not an ideology that a great institution like the University of Chicago should be seeking to advance.

Whole rant here.

Here's a rejoinder to Sanders by Friedman himself, appearing on the Donahue show back in the day. Suffice it to say here that Friedman championed capitalism precisely because it gave more people more opportunity.

Reason on Friedman here.

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  1. At least Sanders is honest about his socialism, no matter how retarded those beliefs might be. Maybe he could name some countries where his ideas have worked?

  2. Yo, fuck Bernie Sanders.

  3. That is, by far, the most ignorant shit I’ve read in a loooong time. Lots of strawmen and projection in there.

    Because I’ve decided it’s appropriate, I’ve decided that Sanders reflects the views of constituents and people from Vermont can suck it. Sell it to Canada and pay down the deficit.

  4. Weekend At Bernie’s 3: this time the corpse getting kicked around is that of Milton Friedman.

  5. TAO,

    I live in NY. Please don’t assume I support Chuck Schumer because he is our Senator. What state does YOUR shitty senator come from?

  6. How about we just sell the SENATE to Canada?

  7. Too bad Bernie’s view is supported by the ruling party in the Legislative and Executive Branches.

    But other than than that, what a crankpot!

  8. I’ll go ahead and put a price on the table: six beaver pelts and a case of Labatt Blue.

    Or is that too high?

  9. Well, at least it’s in In these Times, which is one of the more fucked-up left-wing periodicals. They are like The Nation, only with less education.

  10. We should trade New England for the western Provinces of Canada.

  11. He does have some valid points, but he makes the same mistake that lots of knee-jerk lefties make in summing up the current crisis: he equates people like W with actual free market supporters. He accurately points out the hypocrisy of much of the Republican party and many in the business community that want capitalism when it’s convenient and socialism when it’s risky, but fails to recognize that what those people represent is as much “anti-Friedmanesque” as the shabby collection of unprincipled beliefs he tries to enforce at gunpoint through congress.

    One wonders if he genuinely doesn’t understand the premises in question at all, or if he’s intentionally misrepresenting them to advance a disproven political agenda?

  12. six beaver pelts and a case of Labatt Blue

    You like beaver but drink Labatt’s. This does not compute.

  13. That video has me in tears. We NEED a Friddman now. What a great man.

    Hey Klein, go fuck yourself!

  14. Yet Vermont is one state with absolutely zero gun laws. Weird.

  15. “Nick | February 17, 2009, 12:51pm | #
    Yet Vermont is one state with absolutely zero gun laws. Weird.”

    IIRC Sanders is pretty good on gun rights, too. Which is doubly weird.

  16. live in NY. Please don’t assume I support Chuck Schumer because he is our Senator.

    He won with 70% of the vote, man! What do you expect me to think?

    What state does YOUR shitty senator come from?

    Hmph. No one makes fun of Ohio’s Senators, if for no other reason than most people couldn’t name them.

    Anyway, Sanders won his Senate seat with 65% of the vote. Vermonters must be Teh Stooopid. It’s an unreasonable assumption to make, but I don’t have to be reasonable.

  17. But we CAN name a lot of your Reps in the House.

    Kucinuch, Trafficant, Vallandingham.

  18. Oh Bernie

    The best I can say for him is that he seems to be actually dedicated to what he says he thinks.

    The problem is he hasn’t seemed to figure out, even as an independent, that a lot of the people who claim they agree with him are actually also self-serving assholes when it comes down to it, just like how a lot of people who claimed to agree with Friedman are self-serving assholes when it comes down to it.

  19. He does have some valid points

    Even a blind pig, man.

    It’s entirely by accident that this total moron managed to come up with anything approaching a “good point”, and even those “good points”, would turn into totalitarianism if you pressed Sanders on them.

  20. TAO, my point is that ALL senators suck ass.

  21. The best I can say for him is that he seems to be actually dedicated to what he says he thinks.

    That’s a good thing? I bet Torquemada really believed in what he thought, too.

  22. I’m getting really tired of lefties calling successful people greedy. You want to talk about greedy? How bout the lazy fuck that wants to sit on his ass and collect welfare and every other sort of entitlement? Who’s the really greedy one? The one who earns what he gets, or the one that expects others to support him because he doesn’t want to do the work? Hmm?

  23. TAO, my point is that ALL senators suck ass.

    Some more than others. Sanders is at the top of the list. His constituency is either lazy, stupid or both. Keep in mind that VT is only 600K people, ~180K of which voted for Sanders. I’m just playing the odds.

  24. What is saddening is that Naomi Klein is becoming so influential even though her work is just mind-numbingly awful and riddled with basic errors (i.e. calling the CATO Institute “neocon” and never bothering to state that Friedman opposed the Iraq War!)

  25. I bet Torquemada really believed in what he thought, too.

    Well, that’s because his chief weapon was surprise. Surprise and fear. Wait, his two chief weapons…

    By the way, can we coin a term for a “quasi-Godwin”; naming a very bad person from history who isn’t Hitler, yet for the same effect?

  26. That’s a good thing?

    Yeah, maybe. I did say “best thing” not “a really good thing”

  27. And another thing. That look of “grasping for comprehension” Donahue has plastered on his face makes me want to open up his skull with a baseball bat.

  28. By the way, can we coin a term for a “quasi-Godwin”; naming a very bad person from history who isn’t Hitler, yet for the same effect?

    TAOism. Ha!

  29. MAOism would be better.

  30. Anyone else remember Joe Piscopo’s impression of Donahue on SNL?

    TAOism. Ha!

    Egomaniac. How about “a Dogwin”?

  31. Egomaniac. How about “a Dogwin”?

    Egomania indeed…what’s that saying involving dark cookware again?

    Anyway, Dogwin is a good one.

    As a tangent, I came up with an idea for a toy train set recently. Picture: A circular track, a train, a little train station and a figurine of Hitler or Mussolini with a gold pocketwatch or stopwatch.

    That’d be pimp.

  32. I’m starting to think the Bernies of the world WANT the market to tank while they can push the political heat on the other party. Once the market is in the toilet, they can confiscate everyone’s 401k (like in Argentina) and have no complaints because everyone thinks they’re worthless anyway.

    Once that threat to SS is eliminated and private savings becomes impossible, we will be dependent on them forever.

  33. How about a new term for people who misunderstand and misapply Godwin’s Law in an attempt to close off discourse?

    Godwin’s Law: as a thread gets longer the probability of someone being compared to Hitler approaches one.

    Preventing mention of totalitarian thugs only benefits totalitarian thugs.

  34. what’s that saying involving dark cookware again?

    “That was my Alton Brown saucepot! I use it to make my Balsamic Reduction! Dammit! …You’ve seen me do it.”

  35. I have a strong feeling Friedman will be the Emmanuel Goldstein of the Washington-Caracas Axis which is fast approaching.

    Bush doesn’t fit the role as well, as he’s not as Jewish.

  36. I have a strong feeling Friedman will be the Emmanuel Goldstein of the Washington-Caracas Axis which is fast approaching.

    You mean Eric Corley?

  37. Hey, Epi, you see BSG from this past Friday yet?

  38. I don’t think Milton even knew how to use e-mail, so no.

  39. “IIRC Sanders is pretty good on gun rights, too. Which is doubly weird.”

    No. It just means Bernie is secretly hoping the proletariat will rise up and overthrow their capitalist oppressors.

  40. Hey, Epi, you see BSG from this past Friday yet?

    Yes. Totally confusing. Way too convoluted.

  41. Freedom is not an ideology that U of C should be trying to advance?

    FUCK YOU, BERNIE.

    -jcr

  42. Let’s compare the effect of Milton Friedman’s ideas to the effect of Karl Marx’s ideas while we’re attacking dead thinkers.

    Hmmm… Capitalism that raised billions from poverty or Socialism that enslaved and killed billions.

    Might have to put on our thinking caps for this one.

  43. TAO, since you’ll have to send the train set to China for lead certification, you should add a Mao figurine. You might get a discount that way.

  44. Bernie’s just pissed that his creators gave him those ridiculous gelatinous orbs to read bills with. HE WANTS TO SEE IN X-RAYS!!!

    This has all happened before, and it will all happen again.

  45. Yes. Totally confusing. Way too convoluted.

    Say huh? It seemed pretty straightforward to me. What was confusing about it?

  46. The 13 squabble and fuck each other like, I don’t know… Greek gods?

  47. I see. Not hat tip for the Gace-man. You’re very welcome, Reason.

  48. Ellen’s motivations don’t work for me.

    Cavil’s outrage doesn’t work for me.

    “Daniel was an sensitive artist”: they boxed him for being gay?

    There’s more. It seems like a ton of shit got pulled out of their ass in a single episode.

  49. This has all happened before, and it will all happen again.

    I’ll happily betray all of you for a shot at Tricia Helfer, even if it only exists in my head. 🙂

  50. Bernie’s just pissed that his creators gave him those ridiculous gelatinous orbs to read bills with. HE WANTS TO SEE IN X-RAYS!!!

    Fucking LOL. It was funny, I was discussing the issue of a flawed creation in view of a postulated perfect deity that Friday afternoon, and both the BSG and Terminator episodes that night touched directly on that theme.

    A regular Baader-Meinhoff.

  51. “Daniel was an sensitive artist”: they boxed him for being gay?

    I know how you feel, Gacy.

  52. I was hoping Cavil would put her eyes out with his thumbs.

  53. Great. I come to read about Friedman and it becomes a BSG spoiler thread. I don’t have fuckin’ cable, people!

  54. I discount the Baader-Meinhof effect, Ele. I prefer to view it in combination with the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics as proof that my solipsism is justified.

  55. My biggest issue with that episode is that they didn’t say what the Swirl is or show Boomer doing it. I’d like to see that in X-ray.

  56. Bernie’s just pissed that his creators gave him those ridiculous gelatinous orbs to read bills with. HE WANTS TO SEE IN X-RAYS!!!

    This has all happened before, and it will all happen again.

    I love you.

    The current Season 4.5 (or whatever you call it) of BSG is kicking ass, imo. Loved that speech.

  57. Oh, and btw Naga —
    I know we had this discussion earlier. I was a little confused by your responses in the linked thread, but I now see your point about “free riders.”

    But Reason ran an article that discusses how Jimmy Wales sees Wikipedia being a vindication of Hayek’s ideas regarding distributed information.

    This is similar to the ideas espoused by (libertarian) Eric S. Raymond in “The Cathedral and the Bazaar.” Unlike (socialist?) Richard Stallman, ESR sees open source as a logical free-market response to post-scarcity economics. It feels kinda socialist, but it’s all non-coercive and mutually beneficial.

  58. Essentially, Ellen is machina ex deo as opposed to deus ex machina, not that it makes any difference.

  59. Ellen’s motivation was to stop a war which seemed to follow the same progress as a war which wiped out her home, and nearly succeeded, but for Cavil being such a dick.

    Cavil’s motivation was payback at his creator for creating him so shittily (the whole Justice for slavery thing was bullshit).

    I’m sure they’ll say more about Daniel in the future. However, he wasn’t boxed. They both talked about it as though Cavil did permanent and irrevocable damage to the model.

  60. “Daniel was an sensitive artist”: they boxed him for being gay?

    My theory is that Cara Thrace is Daniel reincarnated through the original pre-current-generation of cylon reincarnation method.
    Implying that there is some higher power out there after all.

  61. Great. I come to read about Friedman and it becomes a BSG spoiler thread. I don’t have fuckin’ cable, people!\

    Get thee to HULU, and stop whining.

  62. My choice was cable, or a defensible compound in the middle of nowhere (surrounded by a frackin’ forest, so satellite is out, too). I made my choice. I can live with it. (Like Mo Sislak and the mechanical bull.)

    AND I HAVE DIAL-UP!!!! AAAARRRRRRGGGGG!

  63. Oh shit, Starbuck is Daniel.

  64. Is someone keeping tabs on how many threads are devolving into BSG threads?

    Seriously, I think it’s becoming more frequent, and is taking less time each time.

  65. Beat me to it, Hazel.

  66. AND I HAVE DIAL-UP!!!!

    OMFG! Does your Jacquard Loom have enough cards?

  67. Oh shit, Starbuck is Daniel.

    It explains a lot of stuff, like Leoben’s obsession, his freak-out over the corpse, and why Starbuck is a jerk. A jerk with weird visions.

  68. Oh shit, Starbuck is Daniel.

    Yup, and Lee and Anders are teh ghey.

  69. Reinmoose, I’ve noted on here that libertarians and sci-fi geeks are a pretty tightly coupled set. It doesn’t bode well.

  70. And Starbuck’s mom’s obsession with her “special destiny.”

  71. AND I HAVE DIAL-UP!!!! AAAARRRRRRGGGGG!

    Oh. Well, then forget I said anything. I shall now weep for you.

    Is someone keeping tabs on how many threads are devolving into BSG threads? Seriously, I think it’s becoming more frequent, and is taking less time each time.

    Well, choosing between talking about an interesting Sci-fi show, and a Socialist/Libertarian hoe-down slap fight we’ve all seen (and participated in) literally hundreds of times before…it’s no contest.

  72. Lee is certainly gay. Just look at his hair.

  73. And Starbuck’s mom’s obsession with her “special destiny.”

    “I have a special purpose destiny too!”

  74. And, money-shot, Starbuck is an artist. Like Daniel.

  75. And what is this YouTube thing I keep hearing of?

  76. And she could draw The Eye of Jupiter. Information put into her brain at childbirth by her “father,” Leoban.

  77. CN –
    Are you not even with possible access to DSL? Not even the 768K kind?
    How is that even possible in today’s world anymore?

  78. And, money-shot, Starbuck is an artist. Like Daniel.

    No, the real money shot is that Starbuck is played by Katee Sackhoff. They knew even when casting!

  79. We should trade New England for the western Provinces of Canada.

    I’d trade New England for one decent poutine joint.

  80. And what is this YouTube thing I keep hearing of?

    Fat kids with lightsabers, girls drinking poop, and endless amounts of lame Family Guy clips. You ain’t missin’ much. Well, maybe except for Porkchop Sandwiches.

  81. I’d trade New England for one decent poutine joint.

    Seconded.

  82. And she could draw The Eye of Jupiter. Information put into her brain at childbirth by her “father,” Leoban.

    No information put there by the One True God.
    I thought Ellen explained that none of that stuff was planned.

  83. He was an advocate for, and popularizer of, a radical right-wing economic ideology.

    Fascism?

  84. Mock me now, Reinmoose. Come the apocalypse, you’ll be pounding on my gate, begging for a scrap from my my toilet-paper stash.

    (Of course, I’ve got big pipes at work. But if I watched BSG without her, my wife would brain me.)

  85. Leoban having something to do with the creation of Starbuck motivates his obsession with her (and convincing her into loving him.) Just guessing, of course.

    And this, of course, leaves the possibility that there are still Kobol-built Cylons in the 12 Colonies. Just because they got one out of 13 colonies after the Kobol War doesn’t mean they were happy about it.

  86. Also, who knew that a subarachnoid hematoma caused by a bullet wound could cause you to remember back 2000 years? I sure didn’t.

  87. Your ignorance of basic medicine is shocking.

  88. Also, who knew that a subarachnoid hematoma caused by a bullet wound could cause you to remember back 2000 years? I sure didn’t.

    Some computers just need a swift, sharp kick to work right. Although, to be fair, printers obey this rule with far more consistency than computers do.

  89. “I’m getting really tired of lefties calling successful people greedy. You want to talk about greedy? How bout the lazy fuck that wants to sit on his ass and collect welfare and every other sort of entitlement? Who’s the really greedy one? The one who earns what he gets, or the one that expects others to support him because he doesn’t want to do the work? Hmm?”

    It is axiomatic that liberals are always guilty of that which they accuse their opponents.

    Hence we have the absurd claim that people who merely want to keep THEIR OWN MONEY and resist the attempts of leftists to steal it to further their own purposes are “greedy” instead of the liberals who want to steal it being the greedy ones.

  90. That video was fucking awesome!

  91. “Because I’ve decided it’s appropriate, I’ve decided that Sanders reflects the views of constituents and people from Vermont can suck it. Sell it to Canada and pay down the deficit.”

    Heh, we’d probably have to PAY Canada to take it off our hands.

  92. Your ignorance of basic medicine is shocking.

    Sure, of TOASTER medicine!

    “While I might trust the doctor to remove a splinter or lance a boil, I do not believe he has the knowledge to restore a brain.”

  93. “I’m getting really tired of lefties calling successful people greedy. You want to talk about greedy? How bout the lazy fuck that wants to sit on his ass and collect welfare and every other sort of entitlement? Who’s the really greedy one? The one who earns what he gets, or the one that expects others to support him because he doesn’t want to do the work? Hmm?”

    It is axiomatic that liberals are always guilty of that which they accuse their opponents.

    Hence we have the absurd claim that people who merely want to keep THEIR OWN MONEY and resist the attempts of leftists to steal it to further their own purposes are “greedy” instead of the liberals who want to steal it being the greedy ones.

    THANK YOU!!!
    I’ve been making this point for years.

    Neitzsche said something similar in the Geneology of Morals. Look up ressentiment and the “slave morality”.

    But underlying resentment and envy is still greed. Wanting stuff you haven’t earned is greedy. Wanting handouts from the government is greedy. Wanting other people to be robbed so that you can be “more equal” with them is greedy.

    Paying your own way? Not greedy.

  94. This does not compute.

    I didn’t say i drink it, but i think it’s the best we’re gonna get.

  95. Boomer is down with the swirl?

    I didn’t say i drink it

    You didn’t have to.

  96. “But underlying resentment and envy is still greed. Wanting stuff you haven’t earned is greedy. Wanting handouts from the government is greedy. Wanting other people to be robbed so that you can be “more equal” with them is greedy.

    Paying your own way? Not greedy.”

    Exactly so.

  97. You didn’t have to.

    Vile slander! My lawyers will be in touch.

  98. We will see a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq and an understanding that never, ever again can we allow an administration to manipulate and deceive its way into a war.

    See, the Iraq War. All Milton Friedman’s fault.

    It’s all, all Milton Friedman’s fault. Everything.

    I have a hangnail. All Milton Friedman’s fault.

  99. Someone should email Sen. Sanders and tell him Friedman was anti-war. He apparently doesn’t seem to know that.

  100. Vile slander! My lawyers will be in touch.

    I have pictures.

  101. The great thing about Sanders being my Senator is I get the pleasure of voting against him. Too bad it doesn’t do any good. Douglas should have run for the Senate seat when he had the chance.

    As for poutine, northeastern Vermont is full of great places to get it.

    Finally, screw Labatt, get Molson instead.

  102. This is the last time i try to remember the name of a Canuck beer in public.

  103. Ugh, Socialism would be great if People actually worked it Democracy would be fantastic to if it was True, real democracy, and it wasn’t bought by the rich, so they could fuck the poor even more.

  104. From Reason Contributing Editor Dave Weigel

    Where is Weigel?

    We miss him.

    sad face

  105. Weigel’s shilling for Big Not Around Reason Much Anymore these days, joshua.

  106. “Where is Weigel?

    We miss him.

    sad face”

    Cheer up kids! Here he is!

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=55&entry_id=35765

  107. It seems like a ton of shit got pulled out of their ass in a single episode.

    I think there’s a contest between the writers of Lost, Heroes and BSG to see who can pull off the longest mindfuck on their viewers.

  108. I think there’s a contest between the writers of Lost, Heroes and BSG to see who can pull off the longest mindfuck on their viewers.

    True. But the current season has been more un-fucking, (or de-fucking) as far as I’m concerned.

    The last episode in particular explained a lot of shit for me. I finally have a coherent idea of where they are going with all of it. Which is nice, for a change.

  109. “Cavil’s motivation was payback at his creator for creating him so shittily (the whole Justice for slavery thing was bullshit).”

    Especially as you realize that Cavil re-enslaved the Centurions, which was worse than what the humans did. Humanity did not know or were in deep denial that their creations were sentient. Cavil knew full well. Perhaps though, that was his revenge on them. After all, Ellen and the rest of the Five did make him to the Centurion’s specs.

    I’ve seen speculation elsewhere that Starbuck is not Daniel, but Daniel’s daughter. Somehow.

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