Ron Paul

The Black Friday Political Thread

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It's the biggest shopping day of the year, if not one of the bigger blogging days. If you're still thinking about gifts, how about a 3-CD history of America through cover songs, edited by Janet Reno? (Sadly, she passed on AC/DC's "Burnin' Alive.")

Unconvincing quote of the week…

"Hell, yeah, I'm confrontational."— John Edwards to a voter in Iowa, on Tuesday.

The week in brief…

– New Hampshire locked in its primary date: January 8, 2008. Michigan Democrats (now set for January 15) may still throw a tantrum, but New Hampshire is a go, and reason will be covering the primary from the ground at the start of next year.

– The Supreme Court took up the D.C. gun ban.

Too smart to be president? The Politico's Jonathan Martin has a thumbsucker about the state of the Fred Thompson campaign. According to most of his sources, the campaign missed its opening and is now, at best, an insurgent campaign that could get lucky, or at worst, a Hindenburg filled with screaming widows. Martin, however, argues that Thompson is finding his footing by talking policy.

[The National Right to Life endorsement] was followed by two recent policy roll-outs — on Social Security and the military — that have generally won warm reviews. Thompson's Social Security outline was praised by both the National Review and The Washington Post editorial page. It's in talking about substance and diving headlong into policy minutia that Thompson is plainly most happy — and Thompson seeming happy while campaigning has not happened much.

This leads me to wonder if I'd underestimated Thompson. For starters, the stupidest rationales for his campaign were not Thompson's own. They came from his backers, salivating over his old pick-up truck and his "commanding voice," or fantasizing about him towering over Hillary Clinton (and her "stubby little legs"). But I don't think I was unfair. Thompson didn't enter this race because it was lacking a federalist. He entered it because conservatives wanted a Reaganesque figure who could inspire them and unite their factions.

One troublesome piece of evidence: Fred's online fan club seems to be shrinking. In the summer, I thought that the excitement and momentum for the Thompson campaign online was strangling the other conservative campaigns—Brownback, Tommy Thompson, et al—in their cribs. He probably did kill those campaigns off a bit sooner, but the momentum's slackened. A grassroots "moneybomb" scheduled for 11/21, the day before Thanksgiving, looks to have been a bust. He received only 82 pledges for $100 apiece, so it's likely he raised less than $100,000.

Ron Paul rising. Earlier this week Mike Huckabee told reporters he was the only presidential candidate who's seen a steady surge of support. Not true: Ron Paul has decisively broken from the 1 percent/margin of error ghetto into, at the very least, spoiler status. RealClearPolitics still doesn't include Paul in all of the averages, but 4.5 percent in Iowa, 6.8 percent in New Hampshire, and 7.3 percent in Nevada. The latest South Carolina poll puts Paul at 8 percent. David Bergland, the (disastrous) 1984 Libertarian Party candidate for president, is overjoyed.

There is no one, true path to liberty. The Ron Paul campaign, the internet, and the millions of people involved in both prove it every day. The old, political establishment is under siege. The power-mad goons are surrounded by heroic lovers of freedom whose numbers will continue to increase exponentially. I'm glad I have lived long enough to see it.

It's a little surprising, how little sting the "nazi" and "9/11 truther" attacks are hurting Paul. Maybe they're an internet phenomenon with no purchase in the real world. You know, like the Paul campaign used to be.

Below the fold…

– Debi Ghate wishes you an Ayn Rand Thanksgiving.

– Bruce Falconer explains the rise of Help Save Manassas, the anti-immigration powerhouse in suburban DC.

Ezra Klein advocates for a Joe Biden vice presidency. Some people call this the "silly season."

– Yes, Kerry Howley conclusively demolished all that whining about Hillary Clinton "playing the gender card." Still… Clinton's caucus page for women is called "You Go Girl." She can't be playing cards—all that winking gives her hand away.

This week's installment of Politics 'n' Prog is a hit by The Nice that encapsulates the meaning of the holiday.

NEXT: Howley and Hamburger on Red Eye

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  1. Don’t forget it was buy nothing day today as well.
    http://adbusters.org/metas/eco/bnd/

  2. the nice. omfg. i’m 16 again! thanks!

  3. Anybody else spend the whole day Christmas shopping?

  4. heroic lovers of freedom

    That really sounds creepy.

  5. Through the 90s, Ron Paul was also a regular on the far-right talk circuit. He spoke to Texas secessionists in 1995 on the “once and future Republic of Texas”; has appeared on a radio program affiliated with the Council of Conservative Citizens; and is a frequent speaker at John Birch Society functions — the group has given him a perfect 100 in its legislative rankings. These days, those who monitor CCC, David Duke, and Stormfront say they can’t get enough of him. They know he’s one of their own.

  6. heroic lovers of freedom

    That really sounds creepy.

    Why?

  7. Through the 80s and 90s I pimped Edward’s mom. She was a solid hooker who never chiseled; she was always available for the adventuresome johns, even on holidays; and she once saved a kitten trapped in a tree with her prehensile trunk ass.

  8. eddy, it’s a conspiracy. the paulites are just waiting until after the election to break out their hoods and nooses.

  9. With apologies to Ernest Lawrence Thayer

    The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the student march that night;
    The quads were filled with rent-a-pigs and not a picket sign in sight;
    With Cooney busted for possession, and Barrows, the riot laws;
    A sickly silence fell upon the supporters of The Cause.

    A straggling few got up to go, in deep despair. The rest
    Clung to that hope which “springs eternal in the human breast;”
    They thought, If only Trollin’ Edward could be rallying that mob,
    We’d put up even money now, with Edward at the quads.

    But Flynn preceded Edward, as did also Jimmy Blake,
    And the former was a no-good and the latter was a fake;
    Forlorn, that stricken multitude discouraged by the odds,
    For there seemed but little chance of Edward’s getting to the quads.

    But Flynn let fly a bottle, to the wonderment of all,
    And Blake, the much despised, set a bomb off in the hall,
    And when the dust had lifted and men saw what had occurred,
    Jimmy beaned the Dean of Students, while the bombed out library burned.

    Then from five thousand throats and more there rose a lusty yell,
    It rumbled through the valley, it rattled in the dell,
    A Harley roared up from the street, and was tearing up the sod,
    And Edward, Trollin’ Edward, was advancing through the quads.

    There was ease in Edward’s manner as he wheeled into his place;
    There was pride in Edward’s bearing and a smile on Edward’s face,
    And when, responding to the cheers, he lightly gave a nod,
    No stranger in the crowd could doubt `twas Trollin’ Edward at the quads.

    Ten thousand eyes were on him as he gunned the throttle loud;
    Five thousand tongues applauded as he signaled to the crowd.
    And while the nervous rent-a-pigs grabbed the night sticks from their hips,
    Defiance gleamed in Edward’s eye, a sneer curled Edward’s lip.

    And now a can of tear gas came hurtling through the air,
    And Edward stood a-watching it in haughty grandeur there,
    Close by the haughty Edward, the can unheeded sped —
    “That ain’t my style,” said Edward. “Break it up!” the coppers said.

    From the streets, black with people, there went up a muffled roar,
    Like the beating of the storm waves on a stern and distant shore.
    “Kill them; kill the pigs!” shouted someone from the mob;–
    And Edward guns his engine, and wipes-out on the lawn.

    With a fist of protest shaking, Edward’s visage shone;
    He jumped back on his Harley; he bade the march go on;
    The Harley takes off through the quads, ’till it hits a vicious bump;
    And Edward sails through the air, landing smack upon his rump.

    “Fascists!” he screeched, “Capitalist, Imperialist, Racist, Sexist pigs!”
    “If I must I’ll ride a tricycle, but we’ll have this march – you dig?”
    They saw his face grow stern and cold; they saw his muscles strain,
    And they knew that Trollin’ Edward wouldn’t lose that bike again!

    The sneer is gone from Edward’s lip; his teeth are clenched in hate;
    He sniffs with cruel derision as he lets go of the brake.
    And now he throws it into first, the clutch he now he lets go,
    And now the air is shattered as the bike takes off – alone.

    Oh! somewhere there’s a campus town where they drum and chant all night.
    They protest for the rain forest, and demand the caribou’s rights.
    And somewhere bongs are being passed, and somewhere radicals shout;
    But there is no joy at Old State U — Trollin’ Edward has Wiped Out!

  10. Don’t forget it was buy nothing day today as well.

    Whoops. A case of Double Bastard, some Great Divide Fresh Hop, Port High Tide, Assorted Dogfish Head six packs…. But since it’s all food, hopefully I get a pass from the Adbuster folks.

  11. I was starting to worry about this week’s weekend thread. We Reasonoids got ripped off twice in the last three weeks (or was it two weeks?).

    If you want to laugh out loud, you may not have seen this. (Edward: You may not want to watch this.)

    And don’t know if you have been to Rudy’s Reading List website.

    Also, in case you have not heard: Krugman attacks Paul here on Paul’s nay vote on SOX and gets debunked in the commentary. Related to SOX and Paul’s no vote, see:

    Ron Paul’s statement on his vote against SOX.

    “Ron Paul vs. SOX” by Jennifer Haman

  12. Wow…thought someone was beating my cat to death with an accordion…then realized that I had accidentally clicked play on this weeks politics and prog…

  13. Paul at 8% in South Carolina?

    South Carolina has no libertarians so it must be the Stromfront/KKK voting bloc.

    Did Ron Paul just release his “nigger policy” paper?

  14. From the Save Manassas article:
    This growth has demanded new houses, shopping malls, parking lots, gas stations, and roads. Construction projects have required cheap labor

    All created by and staffed by you know who.
    So it comes down to “Work here, especially if you are willing to work cheap. Then get the hell out and live somewhere else”.

  15. I generally believe in free speech 99% of the time, but when a person proves himself to be little more than an obnoxious cutter/paster (namely, “edward), I believe he deserves the ban hammer. Do I have anyone who supports my position in regards to “edward”?

  16. Edward,

    SC governor Mark Sanford is a pretty libertarian guy, and has spoken highly of Dr. Paul. Do you have anything besides your own prejudice to back up your claim that there are no libertarians in SC?

  17. Do I have anyone who supports my position in regards to “edward”?

    I do.

    crimething and everyone else, here is a challenge: LETS NOT RESPOND TO EDWARD AT ALL… AT ALL… AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS Otherwise the thread will be dead boring and stupid as what happens when Edward joins in. Dondero, may be. Edward, no!

  18. I vouch not to respond to any of Edward’s comments. Any one would second that?

  19. iih, it’s a good idea, but it never works. Someone always responds. And, correcting those who respond merely adds to the troll’s delight.

  20. crimethink- Well copy the above and have it ready to be pasted every couple of hours or so.

  21. I vouch not to respond to any of Edward’s comments.

  22. Ignoring trolls on a non-modded system like this is not particularly effective. Even if we all ignored him (and I don’t think that’s the best way, and so I don’t ignore him)–but even if we did–a newcomer to the site will wonder why amidst the Paulistas and the pseudoanachists there seems to be this guy posting fairly contrary arguments that nobody else seems to be able to see…it’s confusing at best and likely to, well, provoke a response from them. Or at least a query.

    Re: “Republic of Texas”…I’ve been all about Texas seceding from the Union and reliving its good old days for a long time now.

    Just a question, though, Edward. Why does it matter why people support Ron Paul? You harp about the whole “racists like him” thing…a lot of racists liked Ronald Reagan, too, and I don’t think that fact says much about Reagan. We’ve also had racists in the White House (e.g. Wilson, T. Roosevelt) who, for better or worse, had a legacy as president basically unrelated to race. Nothing about Ron Paul’s platform or his legislative history suggests an intent to institutionalize racism in any way. So, why does it matter?

  23. Edward is fun, like one of those punchy clowns. Enjoy it.

    (I don’t think it’s really Edward anyway. I think it’s a clever troll riding Edward’s stubby coattails.)

  24. Karl, where did you get the Double Bastard? The two distributors I go to (Halftime in Poughkeepsie, NY and Vinnin Sq. Liquors in Swampscott, MA) don’t have it in yet and don’t have a clue when it’s supposed to arrive. I’ve bought it at both places in the past, which is making me worried that I won’t be able to snag any this year.

  25. If you’re still thinking about gifts, how about a 3-CD history of America through cover songs, edited by Janet Reno? (Sadly, she passed on AC/DC’s “Burnin’ Alive.”)

    Dude, that’s just mean. People just need to Waco and smell the coffee.

  26. A digression from the all politics is local desk:

    This is a question for prolefeed or anyone else who has an insight on the Hawaiian Republican party.

    Do you know who Scott R. Hadley is? And does he really speak for the “Hawaii Republican Party” as was his byline in a bizarre letter to the editor that appeared in the Nov 14 ed of local alt-weekly?

    I can’t link to it because The Honolulu Weekly does not publish hardly any of its content on-line, but a another letter from him here in the Star-Bulletin contains some of the same stuff as his most recent letter. But while the S-B letter sounds reasonable, the Weekly letter went off into the delta quadrant with rants against Lingle, the Democrats, and just about every other political, cultural, and social power base in the islands. And the weekly letter signs off with a plug for Duke Aiona for Gov in the next election and a byline that one would infer he is speaking for the Hawaiian Republican Party.

    Anyone know what the heck is going on?

  27. Unconvincing quote of the week…

    “Hell, yeah, I’m confrontational.” – John Edwards to a voter in Iowa, on Tuesday.

    To be fair, he’s won a metric ass-ton of money for his clients (or prevented them from losing the same). You don’t get to be a winning trial lawyer by being conciliatory.

  28. David Bergland, the (disastrous) 1984 Libertarian Party

    Well, I grant you that during this election I was voting for Transformers over Go-Bots, but again charity would dictate that there should be a discernible difference between the legacy left by Mr. Bergland and any other Libertarian candidate to characterize him as a ‘disaster’.

  29. Ignoring trolls on a non-modded system like this

    well, somewhat modded. i managed to get banned under a different id back in the tim era.

  30. Wow.

    1. The linked AynRand essay is even more far gone than the other similar one: aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10469&news_iv_ctrl=1021

    2. Reason’s got the MoJo! (Trivia question: which far-left groups/pubs has Reason linked to approvingly and unquestioningly?) It’s a lightweight article, and I tend to doubt the meeting described. Especially since it seems like the opposite number to the one described in the first update here: tinyurl.com/ypgkbw

    I note also that even the WaPo was forced to admit “certain downsides” of HSM’s opponents:
    washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/26/AR2007082601188.html

    3. Here’s yet another in the long line of privacy sapping proposals that Reason has ignored (for one odd reason or other).

    4. Here’s a new proposal that could help give Ron Paul’s policies a fair hearing (and show the flaws in his opponents’ policies): youtube.com/watch?v=xA8Kgn_48t0

    5. As for the song itself, I don’t recall NeilDiamond advocating for massive PoliticalCorruption or giving PoliticalPower inside the U.S. to foreign governments, so perhaps he won’t make a good libertarian spokesman.

    6. As for the performance of the song, all those seeking antidotes for that and other prog-related symptons can watch this: youtube.com/watch?v=_FIrLSsTRFk

  31. also known as the CAVANAUGHA dynasty, in power from AP (Annus Postrelis) 6-11.

  32. I like Edward, therefore he is a racist.

  33. crimethink- Ah I see. It took my a while to realize that you’re responding to me! (or at least I think so)

  34. Tim’s power began to wane after he “outed” one of my aliases. The moral of the story is, DON’T FUCK WITH CRIMETHINK.

  35. TLB,

    Don’t look now but this story about an IllegalHero is making the rounds right now.

  36. crimething-

    Tell me what you had to do so that no one DFWC? I called the publisher of the blog once to take off a comment with an email that would have “outed” my alias too. They were good. May be that was one of the consequences of DFWC.

  37. Don’t forget it was buy nothing day today as well.
    http://adbusters.org/metas/eco/bnd/

    I don’t buy into that adbusters marketing hype.

  38. Um, Dave, after the last TWO times you emplored(sp?) me not to take or post pictures fo you, you are not anybody to talk about shopping.

  39. The Edwards quote is something. I think he has really, really done quite a bit to build up the idea of himself as a really big sissy, and surely the right has and will capitalize on it (the worst was having his WIFE go on Harball to defend him from Ann Coulter, he should have called Coulter a stupid b*tch ho and at least looked like a man). I wonder if the man really is a big wuss or if you just have to do that to win a Democratic primary (be all touchy feely, like the old NPR SNL spoofs).

    I wonder, if we could transport all the candidates (Dem and GOP) from their prime and have them duke it out, who would be the winner?

  40. I wonder, if we could transport all the candidates (Dem and GOP) from their prime and have them duke it out, who would be the winner?

    No question about it, Ron Paul will win. He will refuse to intervene, while the others kill each other off by their interventionist policy. The other guy remaining: Kucinich. At least his wife endorses Paul.

  41. I’m guessing McCain…But I’ll admit to massive and unexcusable ignorance considering the atheletic and/or military background of the candidates (which is what I would use to select the badasses from the wimps [of course this is for fun, I would not vote for someone just because they could kick tail {though it wouldn’t hurt}). Anyone know a link to find such things out?

  42. On a kinder note (I am Mr. Nice Guy) if we were to rank candidates by how effective they were in their chosen professions Edwards would come off quite good…Love him or hate him he would be the one you would want representing your case in court.

  43. MNG,

    Don’t even go there. The hypothetical battle between LOTR and Star Wars characters has been going on for 20 years now, I don’t think we’ll come to a resolution any quicker.

  44. Don’t know if you guys have seen this, but it’s your chance to “digg” the candidate of your choice. And gee, I wonder who the most dugg candidate is, by over 4,000 diggs over the second place dude (Obama).

  45. eh, I guess it’s OT, but on Thanksgiving, I went outside to my car for more beer, and Dr Paul was riding his bike down our street…I just said hello and happy thanksgiving.

    gogo small towns!

  46. Double Bastard is released every Nov.

  47. The improving situation in Iraq: The Washington Post yesterday ran a story about Iraqis returning to Iraq. Forty six thousand iraqis returned last month. The inbound flights are booked; you can’t buy a seat. The security situation improves daily. I can’t find the link to the story, but that is no matter anyway because those of you with open minds have already read it and the rest won’t.

    Here is herr Krauthammer’s take on the Iraq situation:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR2007112201089.html?nav%3Dhcmodule&sub=AR

  48. wayne:

    I haven’t actually heard about it, but sure sounds like great news.

    Stay safe over there.

  49. watne:

    I am also curious, what do you think the best course of action now is? Stay, completely go, or go with some substantial presence left behind?

    Also, given your experience, would you be kind enough to give some feedback on my blog (click my name)?

  50. Sorry for the typo: “wayne” not “watne”

  51. Hi squarooticus – I’m in Tucson, AZ, so I can’t help you with distributors on the east coast. Double Bastard is released in late October, early November of each year. I have a couple of bottles from the last couple of years and am looking for a good excuse to do a vertical. Fortunately, there are a fair number of places that carry the Double around here, even so I’ve been known to make a special trip out to stock up on some of the rarer releases – and the restaurant is top notch. My local watering hole managed to get a keg of Double this year but in general the supply has been a bit thin – the fires interrupted production a bit. The last time I was out east, the Stone selection was a bit slim, so I’m not sure how much luck you will have – it’s been out for a couple of weeks – if your distributors don’t even have a clue… You might be better off scheduling a trip out to San Diego! I have around 1.5 cases right now – I plan on cellaring about 6 bottles, but if you really can’t get any out there, drop me a line and maybe I can ‘drop’ a bottle in the mail – putridmeat@comcast.net
    -Karl

  52. well, somewhat modded. i managed to get banned under a different id back in the tim era.

    What?? Could edna be yet another alias of of the enigmatic Gary Gunnels?

    Who else was banned during Tim’s reign… seems I remember Jennifer getting (albeit temporarily) booted for wishing some kind of violence on someone or something… but she’s been around the whole time… so, who else?

    Oh, now that I think of it, I vaguely remember from around that time someone asking “whatever happened to so-and-so” and someone else said the person had been banned and there ensued some discussion and general surprise that people had actually been banned from commenting… but I can’t remember who it was now… Anyone else remember who all was banned back then?

  53. The last time I was out east, the Stone selection was a bit slim, so I’m not sure how much luck you will have – it’s been out for a couple of weeks – if your distributors don’t even have a clue… You might be better off scheduling a trip out to San Diego!

    Indeed. It is much easier to get out here on the left-coast (Oregon for me) than when I was back there. I’d offer to send you a bottle or two but it looks like Karl has you covered. 🙂

  54. Brian:

    How do you know that someone who disappears is banned? If what you are describing is not some sort of theory, do they do it by IP addresses?

  55. iih,

    Yes, I believe they do it by IP address, so of course it wouldn’t be all that hard to get around if one really wants to (and GG came back as a few different names after that). Oh, and we knew they were banned because at least one of the banned people emailed some other frequent commenters to tell them about it. Tim also admitted it at the time and explained his reasons for it, if I recall.

  56. I am still curious, what could have been said that warrants “banning”? I have seen some pretty explicit stuff on here. Plus, isn’t that against the motto “free minds and free markets”?

  57. I generally believe in free speech 99% of the time, but when a person proves himself to be little more than an obnoxious cutter/paster (namely, “edward), I believe he deserves the ban hammer. Do I have anyone who supports my position in regards to “edward”?

    Cesar — is it so hard to just scroll past the edward comments unread? Or is it a case of “I wish I knew how to quit reading you, Edward”?

    Free speech means tolerating the occasional douchebag. And Dan T. managed to turn it around and every now and then post something worthwhile, so there’s always hope …

    P.S. I thought edward’s “Stromfront” comment was a clever play on words, albeit buried in another really annoying post.

  58. 1. The linked AynRand essay is even more far gone than the other similar one: aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10469&news_iv_ctrl=1021
    Really? Pieces like that is what draws me to the philosophy of Objectivism before I remind myself that it is a religion for the insane and lonely high school students.

    Don’t forget it was buy nothing day today as well.
    http://adbusters.org/metas/eco/bnd/

    I read a message board on Adbusters for this year’s Buy Nothing Day where kids in Miami where making plans to protest Black Friday. Their plan was to wander aimlessly around Walmart like zombies (getit GETIT?) and “get posters of images of people out of work (due to the power of walmart) and children in sweat shops and put them on over our heads and then sit in front of one of the walmart or best buy stores that everyone is waiting to go into ….just a little something to jar them into thinking what they are participating in”

  59. This is a question for prolefeed or anyone else who has an insight on the Hawaiian Republican party.

    Do you know who Scott R. Hadley is? And does he really speak for the “Hawaii Republican Party” as was his byline in a bizarre letter to the editor that appeared in the Nov 14 ed of local alt-weekly?

    Kenny, the letter you linked to has the d00d saying he has lived in Hawaii for all of three months, so he definitely isn’t speaking for anyone but himself.

    And, as someone who has had around 200 or so letters to the editors printed in the two “major” papers here (plus a few minor papers), I can vouch that it’s pretty easy for even the most tweaked-out, untalented hacks to get printed here. 😉

    There really isn’t a Republican Party in Hawaii, anyway — the tiny contingent of ostensible Republican legislators has been hijacked by the center-left Linglecrats. If I had to break the 76 seat legislature down by actual political affiliation, rather than stated party, it would be about like this:

    5 Communists
    4 Greens
    25 Socialists
    30 Democrats
    4 Democrats posing as Republicans
    4 Centrist Linglecrats posing as Republicans
    3 Republicans
    1 small-l right-libertarian

  60. I am still curious, what could have been said that warrants “banning”?

    iih, as best I can tell, to get banned you have to either persistently and gratuitously insult an actual Reason staffer, or be a creepy threatening stalker who advocates physically harming someone here in the meatworld, or post blatant commercial spam without even attempting to be relevant to the discussion at hand. Pretty much anything else goes — the First Amendment is live and kicking here. I’m amazed at the stuff I’ve gotten away with here and not a single comment banned.

  61. I am still curious, what could have been said that warrants “banning”?

    Well, you’ll have to go back and read some of the archives because I can’t say I remember exactly what it was.

    In Gary Gunnels case, well, there is just no way I can do him justice. Gary Gunnels was a special character around here (and had many other names – Jean Bart, Hakluyt to name a couple) both admired and reviled by many, often both at the same time. His breadth of knowledge on any and all topics was matched only by the acerbic vehemence of his rants, diatribes and insults. I rather miss him myself, but he alienated a lot of the regulars over time. I think thoreau would be a good person to ask about GG as I recall there was some bad blood between those two around the time of the ban.

    As for what got him banned, well it was more the overall nature of his behavior rather than any one post. At some point in the discussion I think either Tim Cavanaugh or Gary posted the email that Tim sent to Gary with some conditions which Gary was to adhere to if he wished to avoid being banned. I don’t recall the specifics now, but I do remember there was a line from Tim that went something like “Gary, you’ve hijacked your last thread.”

    Of course Gary didn’t comply and was banned. However he returned on various aliases over time, though who knows if he’s still around. Certainly nobody these days posts anything like his masterpieces anymore so I doubt that he’s here under a different name these days.

    Later, Tim posted another comment I just came across which referenced the bans and is pretty funny to boot so it warrants reposting in it’s entirety for those who weren’t around then:

    Tim Cavanaugh | August 16, 2005, 6:44pm | #
    Things I do know: Jane plays more roles on Hit & Run than Alec Guinness and Peter Sellers combined.

    Things I don’t know: Whether Hakluyt is JB/[Gary Gunnels]/JB/TM, etc. I hope so. I need somebody to play Klaus Kinski to my Werner Herzog.

    Something I just realized: That Mona has been around lately. I hadn’t noticed him or her for months, and assumed that Mona had finally made good on that promise to leave us once and for all. But I see a late-July subway thread was a regular Monathon.

    Things I wonder about: What became of dj of raleigh, Thomas Paine’s Goiter, Andrew, James Merritt, and so many others. You all shit your pants whenever I ban somebody, but who sheds a tear for those regulars who just fade away… Where are the snows of yesteryear?

  62. prolefeed, Brian,

    Ah, I see. I think this gives me a clear idea of what we’re talking about. That and the thing about Jennifer mentioned above. She could be both blunt and amusing (mostly the latter).

    May be crimethink can tell a bit about his encounter with Tim.

    Honestly, I have to say, I have a very lets say romantic view of libertarianism (more accurately, liberty –I do not like the “-ism” at the end; I do not like ideologies nor ideologues). I know that this sounds collective (but this is how the general public perceives them) “libertarians” need to work on their social skills a little bit more, though I think there are many wonderful “liberty-loving” people on H&R.

  63. Pieces like that is what draws me to the philosophy of Objectivism before I remind myself that it is a religion for the insane and lonely high school students.

    Wow, what a substantial criticism from someone who is obviously an intellectual heavyweight.

    /sarcasm

    Here’s the (partial) list of insane/lonely high school students who consider themselves Objectivists:

    Dr. Tibor Machan (Ph.D., professor emeritus at Auburn and former editor of Reason)

    Dr. Harry Binswanger (Ph.D., philosophy, Columbia)

    Dr. Andrew Bernstein (Ph.D., philosophy, CUNY)

    Dr. Yaron Brook (Ph.D, finance, UT-Austin)

    Dr. Tara Smith (Ph.D., philosophy, Johns Hopkins and current philosophy professor at UT-Austin).

    So, johnathan, are you going to admit that you’re an ignorant slut, or is it just one of those things that doesn’t need to be said?

  64. “I am also curious, what do you think the best course of action now is? ”

    I am a big fan of doing what works. I think the US should continue with the surge tactics (it is more than just added troops). We should push the Iraqis to assume more responsibility and control of their own security.

    We should be actively involved in discovering and destroying insurgents who are embedded in the Iraqi security forces. This will build faith and confidence in a lawful security force.

    We should pressure the militias to continue to cooperate. Muqtadr Al Sadr has just issued another order for his Shiite militia to refrain from confrontations with coalition forces for six months. He did this not because he is a nice guy, but because the new surge tactics were making his militia (JAM) pay a heavy price for confrontations.

    We should press the Iraqi leadership to come to a political compromise that will allow peace. This will probably be something different than was envisioned in the new Iraqi constitution, but that is, after all, the definiton of compromise.

    As the situation stabilizes we should withdraw to our fortified bases; occasionally, and only when warranted, we should drop the hammer on the bad guys. This will ensure continued stability because ordinary Iraqis will be confident that they will be protected from the middle-east crazies.

    Over time, after Iraqi security forces demonstrate their competence, we should withdraw entirely.

    If we begin an immediate, hasty withdrawal that will precipitate a return to anarchy because the “Iraqi on the street” will be left to confront the thugs; we know how that worked out.

    If this works out we will not be left with “America on the banks of the Euphrates”, but with a middle-east state with middle-east solutions. Whether Iraqis seize their opportunity for freedom and democracy is up to Iraqis. That is OK with me.

  65. If reason really intends to cover the primary “from the ground,” the place to be is Murphy’s Taproom, 494 Elm St., Manchester. Contact me for further details and to arrange interviews with local grassroots people.

  66. Oh, JB/Gary Gunnels/Haklyut is here. He’s the Syloson of Salomos or whatever…he’s had like 40 names, so failing to keep up is understandable.

  67. Just curious, anybody know why all fifty state primaries are not held on the same day, like the general election? Is it an anachronism, or is there some other reason?

  68. Here’s the (partial) list of insane/lonely high school students who consider themselves Objectivists:

    Dr. Tibor Machan (Ph.D., professor emeritus at Auburn and former editor of Reason)

    Dr. Harry Binswanger (Ph.D., philosophy, Columbia)

    Dr. Andrew Bernstein (Ph.D., philosophy, CUNY)

    Dr. Yaron Brook (Ph.D, finance, UT-Austin)

    Dr. Tara Smith (Ph.D., philosophy, Johns Hopkins and current philosophy professor at UT-Austin).

    So, johnathan, are you going to admit that you’re an ignorant slut, or is it just one of those things that doesn’t need to be said?

    I was just being cute, lay off.

  69. aww, johnathan, I’m sorry – us insanely lonely high school students get sensitive sometimes, especially to throwaway insults that marginalize a serious intellectual movement.

    C’est la vie.

  70. If we begin an immediate, hasty withdrawal that will precipitate a return to anarchy because the “Iraqi on the street” will be left to confront the thugs; we know how that worked out.

    Unfortunately, I see this happening. Would you disagree with Dr. Paul then that immediate withdrawal would be bad for Iraqis? That seems to be one his major difference with the rest of the pack.

    If this works out we will not be left with “America on the banks of the Euphrates”, but with a middle-east state with middle-east solutions. Whether Iraqis seize their opportunity for freedom and democracy is up to Iraqis. That is OK with me.

    One really wonders what will happen immediately after any withdrawal, whether now or later.

  71. RE: Ayn_Randian

    Maybe you can answer a question I’ve had for a while. Back in 2003, I listened to an interview with Leonard Peikoff promoting the Iraq war using some lame defense argument. Granted, I’ve only read “Atlas Shrugged” and “The Fountainhead” but what I heard Peikoff saying seemed completely inconsistent with the logical, reasoned philosophy I got from those novels. I immediately sent a letter (via an address listed on the society’s website) asking how objectivism could reconcile using the state as a means to extract funding from individuals for a non-defensive war. I also asked, if he was convinced it was defensive, what he based his conclusion on. I received no answer so I sent it via email to every contact address I could find on the website. Never received a response. Do you have any links to explanations for this?

  72. “Unfortunately, I see this happening. Would you disagree with Dr. Paul then that immediate withdrawal would be bad for Iraqis? That seems to be one his major difference with the rest of the pack.”

    I am not familiar with Ron Paul’s opinion about the impact of an immediate withdrawal. I think an immediate withdrawal would generate an immediate showdown between the parties vieing for power: Sadr’s militia, the Sunni militias, Al Qaida, and the elected government. This would spawn an immediate civil war. How long it would last is not clear to me. It would definitely be violent with none of the politically correct boundaries that the US observes. To me, that sounds “bad for Iraqis”.

    After the bloodletting, the victors would establish their rule. I can’t imagine how it would be “good” to be ruled by Sadr, or Al Qaida, or any militia.

    To be fair, I am not terribly convinced that the current elected Iraqi government would be much “better”; they all seem to me to be grasping for the sort of dictatorial power and boundless wealth that Saddam enjoyed.

    So, yes I think it would be disastrous for the average Iraqi if the US withdrew hastily.

  73. Jibbster – Peikoff does not speak for Objectivism. Example one: his (irk) endorsement of John Kerry in 2004 for equally lame reasons made me hate him all the more.

    However, I do have some links if you want to e-mail me (I don’t know how to link things in HTML…sometimes I feel like an old man)…The Iraq war created a big fault line in Objectivism too, with ARI members corrupting Rand’s beliefs about interventionist wars.

    There’s no question in my mind that Rand would have opposed the war. Whether rational thinking Objectivists can come to a different conclusion (I don’t think they can; I think residual 9/11 anger and a refusal to admit error drives the bloodthirsty Objectivist wing) is a great question.

  74. “One really wonders what will happen immediately after any withdrawal, whether now or later.”

    Withdawal later would at least give ordinary Iraqis the opportunity to go through an election cycle. If they are fed up with Maliki, they can vote his ass out of office and bring in the next lieing bastard, just like we do in America. Iraq is a corrupt, tribal country, and it is not going to change overnight.

  75. wayne – you need to pack up your crystal ball and your trunk of prognostications and peddle that junk somewhere else.

    The truth is that you have no idea what is going to happen to the Iraqis if we leave, and neither does anyone else. Confessedly, relatively few of us (that is, withdrawal advocates) care…it’s not our responsibility to stick around and figure things out for grown adults, especially not at 1 trillion dollars and 4,000 dead, with an additional 40,000 wounded Americans.

    Not good for the Iraqis? We should be asking what’s good for America…that is who I fight for, anyway.

  76. I am still curious, what could have been said that warrants “banning”?

    Hitler was banned for being bad and evil. I have never been banned.

    Go Vanderbilt! Vote Ron Paul!

    You really need to get out of Iraq, it is a lost cause for you and your troops are just in my way.

  77. Ayn,

    First off, you can kiss my ass so far as my prognostications are concerned. I was asked a reasonable question and I responded civilly with my reasoned opinion.

    I agree with you that we should be asking what’s good for America. There are many different ways of judging what is “good”. An immediate withdrawal would stop the hemorhage of blood and money (or ate least slow it), but it might not be “good” in the long run. Your crystal ball is no better than mine.

  78. What?? Could edna be yet another alias of of the enigmatic Gary Gunnels?

    no, nor any of the others mentioned. i was a pretty minor character, not really worthy of notice, but disagreed strongly (though absolutely politely- my style has not changed) with tim regarding the israeli-hizbollah war. for obvious reasons, tim had some personal issues with that and i found suddenly that i couldn’t post. so, ip and nick change.

    this all happened right about the same time as that awful incident that took away my pinkie fingers (shift key is now difficult for me).

  79. Fair enough, wayne, I was a little harsh. My apologies.

    The facts, however, are this: we are hemorrhaging money and Soldiers for an unknown. That doesn’t sound like the best course for the country to me, and I’m not sure how you can justify that to yourself.

  80. it’s not our responsibility to stick around and figure things out for grown adults

    the perfect summation of a wise foreign policy.

  81. UN/MSM INDEPENDANT NEWS

    Global Warming Takes More Prisoners

    The good ship Explorer was, er, exploring the ever warming Antartic when it was pierced by something, no doubt put there by President George Bush, and almost 2,000 people died because of a US failed policy.

    Exploring the pristine wilderness, unmolested by man, were some 150 people who were tossed haplessly into the freezing water requiring rescue by the UK Royal Navy.

    Expect more people to freeze to death because of George Bush global warming.

  82. Apology accepted.

    I agree with Colin Powell’s remark, “You break it, you own it”. We broke it, we own it.

    It strikes me as very cowardly to walk away from Iraq and leave it in the clutches of multiple violent groups, each with bad intents.

    It is popular here to pretend that Islamic fundamentalism (Islamofascism) is no threat to the west, but I disagree.

    We should not have invaded Iraq, but that is water under the bridge. Now we have to figure a way to allow Iraqi citizens to establish a government of their choosing.

  83. Now we have to figure a way to allow Iraqi citizens to establish a government of their choosing.

    why? are they stupid children? do they need to be guided by their besserwissers?

    It is popular here to pretend that Islamic fundamentalism (Islamofascism) is no threat to the west

    of course islamofascism is a threat to the west. and the east, too. but post-saddam iraq is not.

  84. “why? are they stupid children? do they need to be guided by their besserwissers?”

    No, they are not children. I don’t know what a “besserwisser” is, so I won’t comment on whether Iraqis have one, or need one. We should help them for the same reason that you do not abandon an injured man by the side of the road.

    “of course islamofascism is a threat to the west. and the east, too. but post-saddam iraq is not.”

    Islamofascists have chosen to confront US forces in Iraq. You are not claiming that the US is simply opposed by ordinary Iraqis who only want the US to withdraw, are you?

  85. Uh, Wayne – if the injured man on the side of the road kept trying to stab me in the eye with a pencil, and kept trying to steal the trillion dollar bill in my pocket, I would in fact abandon his injured ass right there.

  86. “Uh, Wayne – if the injured man on the side of the road kept trying to stab me in the eye with a pencil, and kept trying to steal the trillion dollar bill in my pocket, I would in fact abandon his injured ass right there.”

    Yes, you would, and his injured family as well, even as they asked for your help.

  87. And by the way, Wayne, the surge has “worked” to the extent that it has returned violence to 2005 levels. That’s better than the disaster that was 2006, but I have to tell you: I thought the war wasn’t worth it in 2005 either. So returning to the 2005 situation is not exactly a win to me, and not exactly a reason to suddenly embrace the war.

    iih –

    I don’t think Paul believes that there would not be a sectarian showdown following a US withdrawal. But we have a sectarian showdown already, which has been indefinitely extended because the US won’t let one side actually WIN. If the US withdraws, there will be a spasm of violence followed by a return to stability. That may not be a great thing, but it’s better than a slow bleed of violence that lasts another decade, and produces thousands of US casualties and another trillion in US costs. The line to a stable Iraqi republic may be shorter and less costly if they are allowed to make their own mistakes than it will be if we continue to try to dominate the environment.

  88. You are not claiming that the US is simply opposed by ordinary Iraqis who only want the US to withdraw, are you?

    no, but i’m claiming that (in current iraq) the u.s. is opposed by people who present no threat to us.

    the threats are real, but they’re not from the rag-tag “army” that is busy blowing up markets and cars.

  89. With regard to Objectivism not being a serious philosophy:

    I think everyone who says that should keep in mind that Objectivism is not derided academically for its political or economic aspects. All the stuff we argue about here, about how Objectivists are “heartless” or whatever means absolutely nothing in that respect. It’s described as an unserious philosophy because Rand set as axioms to her philosophy the statements that the world we see around us exists, and that there is no additional plane of existence to consider, and that the formal rules of noncontradiction that we call “logic” are valid and represent not just an arbitrary system but the actual state of affairs in existence as a whole. She also refused to accept any rejection of those axioms that employed assumptions that were only possible if those axioms were true. Since speculation about the possible rejection of those two axioms makes up quite a bit of the history of modern philosophy, that placed her firmly outside of that system.

    Of course, the funny thing is that most of the people who say that Objectivism is unserious actually accept those axioms in their, you know, actual lives, and don’t find them unserious at all. And if they don’t accept those axioms, well – I’m happy to concede that Objectivism is absurd if reality doesn’t actually exist and if it is, in fact, possible for A to simultaneously be A and not A.

  90. “I don’t think Paul believes that there would not be a sectarian showdown following a US withdrawal. But we have a sectarian showdown already…”

    I don’t think there would be a sectarian showdown either, except that sectarian resentments might be stoked by those grasping for power. I think that is what has happened already. It was to the benefit of the displaced Saddamites to have Shiites and Sunnis killing each other, so they committed terrorist acts designed to inflame whatever resentments existed naturally. The danger the inflamers run is that they can’t restore peace between Sunnis and Shiites when it sectarian mayhem no longer benefits them.

  91. Yes, you would, and his injured family as well, even as they asked for your help.

    Yes, I would, because the condition of getting my help is that you refrain from trying to stab me in the eye with a pencil, and refrain from trying to steal my trillion dollar bill. If you think that’s immoral, you are an immoral bastard. It is SIMPLY NOT JUST for you to demand help while refusing to PUT THE FUCKING PENCIL DOWN. If you can’t meet my extremely reasonable conditions, you have no grounds for trying to guilt me into helping you, and you should go fuck yourself. Anyone else whom I cannot or do not help because you won’t put the pencil down is your moral responsibility, and not mine. Hit the bricks.

  92. The point is probably moot in any case. I think there is a very good chance that the US will withdraw after the next presidential election. Then we will see what happens.

  93. wayne – how long did the British fight to “stabilize” Ireland? Look at how long and painful that process was. And those were two nations/groups of people who shared geopgraphical and cultural heritage.

    wayne, you really don’t want to stick to the “break it, own it” argument. When you have to replace something, you replace it with the same or a similar item. So if we deposed Saddam and just installed a socialist strongman, you would be happy, right?

    Besides, who’s this “we” in the “we broke it” argument anyway? Is the government the people of the US? Should we the people (and the Armed Forces) continue to pay for a government mistake?

  94. “no, but i’m claiming that (in current iraq) the u.s. is opposed by people who present no threat to us. ”

    I agree that some who want the US out of Iraq are simply POIs (pissed off Iraqis), and that they represent no large threat against America after we vacate Iraq.

    There are some groups operating in Iraq who represent a significant threat to the US and others. These are not POIs, they are from Saudi Arabia and Libya and Chechnya and Afghanistan and Paksitan, etc.

  95. Since speculation about the possible rejection of those two axioms makes up quite a bit of the history of modern philosophy, that placed her firmly outside of that system.

    Fluffy – I had never considered that as the reason for the systematic academic rejection of the philosophy. That’s exceptionally insightful, esp re: to academics utilizing the axioms but then rejecting that they are absolutes.

    well-played, sir. well-played.

    *golf claps*

  96. “Besides, who’s this “we” in the “we broke it” argument anyway? Is the government the people of the US? Should we the people (and the Armed Forces) continue to pay for a government mistake?”

    The “We” in this argument is the United States. You live in a representative Republic. Actions of the state, ordered by the US President are “your” actions.

    I am not going to bother to address your “break it, own it” point.

  97. Good to see someone finally attaching the adjective “dissastrous” to David Bergland and his 1984 Libertarian Presidential Campaign.

    Easily the very worst LP Prez Campaign in the Party’s entire history. Got so bad, post-Bergland that the Party even dipped below 4,000 paid members for a few months in 1985.

    Bergland should crawl back under a rock, and leave us Winner-tarians alone.

  98. Hey, wayne: I’m an anarcho-capitalist. I certainly don’t take moral responsibility (and I shouldn’t have to take economic responsibility) for the actions of a federal government whose elimination I advocate.

    But more widely, I don’t see why anyone who didn’t vote for Bush and the rest of the Neocon crowd—and especially those who have spent substantial time and effort advocating an end to this war—should be held responsible for his policies: short of armed rebellion, they’ve done just about everything they could to bring an end to it.

  99. Donderoooooooooooooo: Don’t you mean “Winner-cons”? Oh wait, that would require that you actually win. Good luck with that. 🙂

  100. The David Bergland era was when I first heard about the Libertarian Party, then forgot all about it for about 10 years.

    There was some guy on a national financial show back then that ran on PBS in Knoxville, TN in the early 1980s who would mention the Libertarian Party on occasion and said more and more Americans were turning to it and then I did not hear much more from him or the Party either, but it did sound interesting and a co-worker said her parents in PA were Libertarian.

    I really should look up some of the stuff from back then just to see how my attitudes have changed.

  101. I am not going to bother to address your “break it, own it” point.

    Why? Because you can’t refute it or it doesn’t conform to your interventionist attitude?

    Eric:

    “Winner-tarians”

    Are you delusional, syphilitic or both?

  102. “Winner-tarians” may be the most excruciatingly bad neologism since “Freedom Fries”.

    Seriously, is there some sort of contest somewhere to see who can come up with the most tone-deaf political catchphrase?

  103. “Hey, me and the other winner-tarians are going to go get some liberty cabbage and then we’re going out to win some hearts and minds among the differently-abled. Who’s in?”

  104. Ayn_Randian-

    Isn’t Alan Greenspan an Objectivist too?

  105. wayne:

    Since I was a child, I was told that it is common wisdom that Iraq has historically a very bloody place, from the Persian-Byzantine era (and probably earlier), through the bloodshed of the “faction” of Ali (“Shia” means “faction”, thinking that they were defending Ali, who acually had nothing to do with the whole thing) against the a new and “unelected” system of hereditary governance, the Moguls came through and completely destroyed Baghdad, through to the Saracen-Ottoman rivalry, onto the modern era bloodsheds, which we are all familiar with.

    As the saying goes, “don’t mess with Iraq“.

    Anyhow, Iraq has been a mess. Things seem to be improving. Unfortunately, I still believe that there are those (Sadamites, Sadrites, Al-Qaida) who, while committing some atrocities now (with a decreasing rate of violence) are keeping their heads low and will be waiting for a US withdrawal. Once the US withdraws, it will be free for all, whether the withdrawal happens now or later.

    I am not basing this on “facts” or reports, or whatever. I am basing it on the common wisdom. These 3 groups (Sadamites, Al-Qaida, and Sadr) are violent, criminal, stubborn, but no stupid.

    On the bright side, however, I see that, after a bloodshed that will ensue US withdrawal (regardless of whether that happens today or in 10 years), the different factions will come to realize that they can’t take it all and will have to reach a compromise of sorts. It feels like Lebanon all over again.

    I really hope I am wrong.

    BTW, I am not sure if Fluffy, Ayn, and others who disagree with wayne, realize that wayne is in Iraq. At least wish him safety.

  106. Donderoooooooooooooo: Don’t you mean “Winner-cons”? Oh wait, that would require that you actually win. Good luck with that. 🙂

    Need some Joementum for that don’t you?

  107. fluffy
    I don’t think academics deride or ignore Rand because of what you mention. I think it has to do with the fact that she did not, in fact, play by the rules of philosophy. If you read her For the New Intellectual you get something you will not find among the philosophers that academe takes seriously: a rant/screed in which she claims only Aristotle among the entire Western tradition had ANYTHING good to say. She derides everyone else for not just being wrong on EVERYTHING but for being bad, evil, delusional “witch doctors” and the like. She just could not see that many of the folks she disagreed with had some weighty things to say, or was unable to grasp the nuance of what they were saying (saying the John Locke and David Hume did not “believe in reality” is absurdly simplistic). In doing these kinds of things she demonstrated a low level of thought, and thus is not taken seriously by philosophers. My philosophy professors in college were not knee jerkers opposed to libertarian ideas, they taught Nozick and Hospers for example quite a bit. But Rand was a joke to them.

    Now, having said that, I always thought it was a crock that she was not addressed and taught more in English and Literature classes. I find some of her early work (We the Living for example) to be quite good and provocative literature, and with strong women characters which one would think would make the feminists in those departments swoon. Yes, her later stuff became polemical to the point of making her work unintentionally hilarious (the speeches in Atlas Shrugged or Fountainhead demonstrate that when it comes to writing dialogue Rand had the ear of a snake), but Lit departments (at least in my day) taught equally polemical and artifical writers (think of Upton Sinclair or Harriet Beecher Stowe, or her hero Hugo). There is no excuse to ignore her in that area.

  108. I agree with Colin Powell’s remark, “You break it, you own it”. We broke it, we own it.

    It’s amazing how many hawks are latching on to that quote, for purposes entirely contrary to the point Powell was trying to make. “You break it, you buy it” is intended to mean “Don’t break it.”

    I’ll believe they’re sincere about this when they start advocating impeaching/firing the fools who talked us into breaking it, and stop advocating “breaking” more countries (Iran). Till then, it’s just another political ploy.

  109. Look, as I’ve said before here I am not a libertarian. Lord knows the “libertopian” types seem a bit nuts to me. But this Donderooo guy misses the point of a party like the Libertarian Party or the movement in general. A movement like that may not do well in general elections, but it has big influences on the currents of thought within the two parties. Without Libertarian influence the GOP would simply be a theocratic Party (the Party of God?), but as it is they invoke a wide range of market ideas that often had their roots in some place like Cato. In the same way the socialists and the progressive party may not have won many elections, but they made the Democrats adopt many, many of their ideas. Mocking libertarians for not winning elections is childish and misses the point entirely.

  110. BTW, I am not sure if Fluffy, Ayn, and others who disagree with wayne, realize that wayne is in Iraq. At least wish him safety.

    I did not know that. In that case, I respect wayne for putting his life where his mouth is, so to speak, though I still disagree with him.

  111. Thank you crimethink for bringing that up. Hawks seem to miss that point entirely. They forget how they reviled Powell at the time for not jumping on the bandwagon fast and strongly enough for them…Now they quote him…And badly…

  112. MNG,

    You’re welcome. I wonder how many hawks think we have an obligation to fix the Native American civilizations that our ancestors broke.

  113. Islamofascists

    What is an Islamofascist?

  114. oldnumberseven, if you don’t already know, you never will.

  115. I think there is a very good chance that the US will withdraw after the next presidential election. Then we will see what happens.

    Please, throw this in my face when and if I’m proved wrong. A little humility is good for a guy, but this probably won’t be a lesson in that.

    When the U.S. forces leave Iraq, the government there WILL evolve into, or be replaced by, an authoritarian strong man reminiscent of (TA – DAAA) Saddam Hussein. Whether it is Muqtada al-Sadr, or some other player in the mess of tribal and religious intolerance that is present day Mesopotamia matters not. It will still be a dictatorial strongman, full of bluster and false international bravado, who ignores human rights while enriching himself and his cronies.

    I didn’t even need to fire up the Xtal ball for that one.

  116. What is an Islamofascist?

    Whoever I damn well say is.

  117. squarooticus | November 24, 2007, 9:37am | #

    Hey, wayne: I’m an anarcho-capitalist. I certainly don’t take moral responsibility (and I shouldn’t have to take economic responsibility) for the actions of a federal government whose elimination I advocate.

    But more widely, I don’t see why anyone who didn’t vote for Bush and the rest of the Neocon crowd—and especially those who have spent substantial time and effort advocating an end to this war—should be held responsible for his policies: short of armed rebellion, they’ve done just about everything they could to bring an end to it.

    Because we in America have profited buy it, perhaps. I would prefer to toss a bomb and be done. Hopefully, it will happen. I cannot wait for all those ‘Git-R-Done’ rednecks to realize what will happen after that bomb is tossed.

    “Be Ashamed to Die Until You Have Won Some Victory for Humanity.” Horace Mann

  118. Bo Diddley | November 24, 2007, 11:21am | #

    oldnumberseven, if you don’t already know, you never will.

    Islam and fascism don’t seem to really mix. Islam was around a long time before fascism, so at the least the term should Islamic Fascist, but I don’t really see that easier. People who want to defeat Islam should know that it will happen by defeating their God. This is how it has been done since men had Gods. The only easy way to do this through pornography.

  119. I am going by memory, so it is possible I am wrong, but I am pretty sure Powell’s words were, “You brake it, you own it”. He was advocating against breaking it in the first place, and I agreed with him on that point, we should not have invaded Iraq.

    His point though, was that we could not just go in and destroy a functioning dictatorship and simply walk away. I agree with that point. We did break it, and now we are trying to fix the problem that we now own.

    Ultimately, it is the Iraqis alone who can fiz their problem. All we can do is provide some breathing room and some protection, temporarily, from the evil ones who simply want to substitute themselves for Sadam.

  120. “Be Ashamed to Die Until You Have Won Some Victory for Humanity.” Horace Mann

    Who gets to define “victory” and “humanity” –“humanity” as in “civilization”, “humanity” as in “democracy”?

  121. iih | November 24, 2007, 11:35am | #

    Who gets to define “victory” and “humanity” –“humanity” as in “civilization”, “humanity” as in “democracy”?

    You do. You are empowered. Shape the world.

  122. Should be:

    You do. You are empowered. Shape the world.

  123. Regarding Islamofascism, for the life of me I can’t yet figure out what it means. I think I know what those who use the terms mean by it. I think the better word should be either “Islamic fanaticism”, or better yet “religious fanaticism”, and best of them all is “fanaticism”. That way we do not alienate moderate Muslims who are very defensive of their religion.

    Here is a quote from this article:

    People like Giuliani, who insist on conflating Islam with terrorism and fascism, care not about the linguistic absurdity of such combinations. “Islam” is an Arabic word while “terrorism” and “fascism” are English words rooted in the European, not Islamic, experience.

    You may also like to see my view on these issues here, especially the first article and the “moral” of the second article (after the video). Don’t forget to leave feedback.

  124. Chavez’s refendum is ten – count ’em, ten – points behind in polling, 49% to 39%.

    Let’s cross our fingers, and hope that the elections are as free, fair, and clean as the others that have taken place over the past few years.

  125. iih | November 24, 2007, 11:46am | #

    I think I know what those who use the terms mean by it

    It means anyone who worships in an Islamic fashion is an enemy. They must be killed, converted to christianity, or tortured. If they convert, then you must immediately put them to death so that they do not revert to their barbaric ways. That is all it really means.

  126. iih,

    Islamofascism is a term used to conflate the political Islam with Arab nationalism, and mislead the American public into thinking that the two parties are the same, instead of the mortal enemies they actually are.

    There is Islamic fanaticism. And there are fascist nationalist movements in the Muslim world, including pan-Arab nationalism and its degenerated step-children. And they are at war.

    Islamofascism is a term whose purpose for existing is to mislead the American public by redirecting the militancy we feel towards al Qaeda towards unrelated enemies, in the service of an imperialist, hegemonic foreign policy.

  127. Closer to home, for me anyway, the Michigan Supreme Court has approved the Jan. 15 primary for both major parties. Some salient points –

    Mighigan is an open primary state. When you get to the polls you can vote in either primary. Not both, of course. This is significant in that Democrats crossed over in 2000 giving John McCain the victory over the favored GW Bush.

    Because of a hissy fit outbreak in the Denocratic party over Michigan advancing its primary date, Hillary Clinton is the only big name that will appear on the Democratic primary ballot. None of the Dems will campaign here, so Hillary is pretty much a shoo-in.

    The Dems appear ready to “punish” Michigan for holding an early primary, by reducing or eliminating their delegates at the national convention. That should be interesting. Michigan is not Vermont or Alaska with three electoral votes, Michigan matters in the race for an electoral college majority. Do the Dems, in the name of party discipline, want to piss off us Michiganders, possibly throwing the state to the Republican party in November? Hmmm.

    The open primary, coupled with a complete Chinese fuck story of a democratic primary, gives, I believe, Ron Paul a very good chance of a second place (or better?) finish in the Republican primary.

    The preceding is not to be taken as gospel by any means. Addiitions, updates and corrections would be appreciated.

    Your thoughts?

  128. It means anyone who worships in an Islamic fashion is an enemy. They must be killed, converted to christianity, or tortured. If they convert, then you must immediately put them to death so that they do not revert to their barbaric ways. That is all it really means.

    No, I actually do not buy that either. That adds fuel to the fire.

  129. David Bergland’s comments are disturbing. Ron Paul is not sweeping the nation. Ron paul is a single-digit candiate in a primary. The non-libertarians are not “surrounded by a sea” of libertarians.

    Language like this suggests that Paul’s campaign is to be judged purely in terms of whether he wins the nomination, and that’s ridiculous.

  130. Islamofascism is a term used to conflate the political Islam with Arab nationalism, and mislead the American public into thinking that the two parties are the same, instead of the mortal enemies they actually are.

    There is Islamic fanaticism. And there are fascist nationalist movements in the Muslim world, including pan-Arab nationalism and its degenerated step-children. And they are at war.

    Islamofascism is a term whose purpose for existing is to mislead the American public by redirecting the militancy we feel towards al Qaeda towards unrelated enemies, in the service of an imperialist, hegemonic foreign policy.

    Sir, you have put it very very well! May I quote you in my blog when I find the right place fot it?

  131. J sub D,

    It might be possible for Paul to link the DNC’s actions in Michigan to the leading candidates’ alleged pro-Iraq War positions.

    “Liberals, the Democratic Party doesn’t want to listen to you! They aren’t listening to what you’re saying about Iraq, and now they don’t want to listen to you at all! The Washington establishment candidates are all the same, I’m the outside who’ll end the war…” blah blah blah. It could work, because they aren’t just two little points – they could be part of a narrative.

  132. Chavez’s refendum is ten – count ’em, ten – points behind in polling, 49% to 39%.

    Let’s cross our fingers, and hope that the elections are as free, fair, and clean as the others that have taken place over the past few years.

    joe –
    Agreed. If it all turns out for the best, I’ll have to eat some crow on an earlier prediction. I hope to do so, but remain guarded about the legitimacy of the election.


  133. The open primary, coupled with a complete Chinese fuck story of a democratic primary, gives, I believe, Ron Paul a very good chance of a second place (or better?) finish in the Republican primary.

    I heard (and hope) that Arab Americans in SE MI will vote for Paul. Those holding back are still bitter about Bush stabbing their back with Patriot Act and Iraq. Have you heard anything about that? RP was very well received by Arab American Institute in Dearborn.

  134. wayne – good luck, brother. It sucks over here.

    However, I don’t believe anybody’s service status makes them more or less qualified to speak on any philosophical point.

    Just because we started a war (think WoD) does not mean that it passes a sanity check to continue it. Yes, the extricating oneself from a conflict is painful, but it’s better to just rip the bandage off now.

  135. My last comment & question were for J sub D.

  136. iih | November 24, 2007, 12:01pm | #

    No, I actually do not buy that either. That adds fuel to the fire.

    Eh, what the hell else do you expect from all the talking heads who use a term like islamofascism? They mean the term to add fuel to the fire. They mean that the whole of the U.S. population should be happy were all people who worship in an Islamic fashion be destroyed, or put into camps.

  137. The Venezuela story is on the front page of http://www.boston.com

  138. iih,

    You might find this difficult to believe, avowed atheists are not especially welcomed by the Arab Americcan Institute in Dearborn. My talking up Ron Paul there would likely(assuredly?) be counter=productive. I’ll keep my ears to the ground though. I can read the local Arab American papers on Monday.

  139. wayne, Ayn Randian,

    I hope you both stay safe, and I hope you spend the next Thanksgiving at home surrounded by your families.

    Having people with your commmitment and courage is something we should all be thankful for.

  140. iih | November 24, 2007, 12:10pm | #

    My last comment & question were for J sub D.

    And I aws responding as you were posting that.

    At your service,
    J sub D 😉

  141. oldnumberseven-

    I really believe that joe put it very well above. For the lack of a better word, it is a fad, with the Islamic terrorists, confused with Arab nationalism and other injustices, as evidence. It will die out eventually as people grow tired/bored. Then onto something new, some new fear and new enemy. Repeat ad infinitum. Foreign intervention ad infinitum.

  142. J sub D:

    AAI is secular, no? At least that is my understanding. Many are liberal Christian, at least that was my impression when I used to drive there for some baklava.

  143. It will die out eventually as people grow tired/bored. Then onto something new, some new fear and new enemy.

    I humbly propose “The latest singing craze – The Arabic Spice Girls”. Sometimes it’s better to get riled up over unimportant stuff like that. Lord knows, lots of westerners have vented at the originals.

  144. iih,

    Congratulations, you now get to speak for The Muslim Community. I knew this one Arab guy, and he told me…:-)

    So, about your people…what do you think the effect of Paul’s anti-secularist, Christian nation rhetoric would be on Musllim voters? On the one hand, I don’t think people with ties to the Middle East would be too thrilled at the prospect of living as a religious minority in an avowedly-religious nation. On the other hand, Bush’s success in 2000 would seem to suggest a certain openness to the idea of a Christian and Muslim conservatives being allies in a war against secular modernity.

    What say you? And by “you,” I mean the millions of Americans you speak for. 😉

  145. An Islamofascist is a person who refuses to allow others to live in peace absent Islam. Convert or die. It is acceptable to murder non-Muslims. I fail to understand why some of you pretend that this is a difficult concept.

    “Death to infidels, death to America”, etc. These are the utterances of an Islamofascist.

    The fact that “Islam” is an Arabic word and “fascist” is European in orgin is irrelevant in my opinion. The English language has a long history of adopting non-English words; that is what makes the English the richest language on the planet.

    Islamofascism is the ideology taught to kids in many (not all, I hope) Madrassas throughout the middle east. The fruits born of that education are people who fly airplanes into buildings full of innocent people. This is not to say that most Muslims are fascist, but it only takes a fairly small percentage of the largest religion on Earth to make things unpleasant for everybody, Muslims and infidels alike.

  146. iih | November 24, 2007, 12:17pm | #

    I really believe that joe put it very well above. For the lack of a better word, it is a fad, with the Islamic terrorists, confused with Arab nationalism and other injustices, as evidence.

    I have never heard an Arab terrorist, or an Arab terrorist political wing describe themselves as islamofascists. The term is meant to describe the enemy, and is used, as far as I know exclusively by the right wing in the U.S.

    Yourself, and joe, seem to me to be describing the term in real world terms and definitions, and the possible etymology of the term. The people who use the term do not care about definitions, affiliations, or figuring out the difference between Shia or Sunni. As King George said in this comment an islamofascist is who is whomever is said is an islamofascist.

    They only write islamofascist because they can not write sand-nigger and be taken seriously. They only write islamofascist so that the Git-R-Done crowd will be frightened and vote the way the writer desires.

  147. joe,

    I am actually not sure if you’re being sarcastic. I think thee is a disconnect between me and you in your first paragraph. Are you doubting that I am Arab/Muslim? If not, and I am not being defensive here, but where do I claim or imply to speak for “The Muslim Community”?

    Regarding your second para, I think in general, many Muslims would feel comfortable in either a secular or tolerant Christian society. Regarding,

    On the other hand, Bush’s success in 2000 would seem to suggest a certain openness to the idea of a Christian and Muslim conservatives being allies in a war against secular modernity.

    Yes, I think you are quite right. That is why having them vote for Paul may be a tough sell. They may simply not trust any Republican in the foreseeable future.

    Regarding Paul, I am personally very enthusiastic about him, initially, because he wants to bring an America that was advertised to me personally, though my readings of American history, the Revolution, the Constitution, Independence, freedom of speech and religion (or lack thereof), etc. When Christian conservatives come to endanger that, as a Muslim, I feel threatened once they start adopting things like “Islamofascism”, etc. They are not the kind of Christians I would like to have in office. Similarly, for seculars.

    Later, I continued to inquire about Paul’s religious beliefs. I have no problem with him or his religious philosophies at all. He has defended Muslims in this country and outside better than any one else. He did not do so pandering to a Muslim audiance. He did it before a conservative, libertarian, and right wing audience at Liberty Fest 2007. He slammed D’Souza. See the video here.

  148. wayne | November 24, 2007, 12:46pm | #

    Islamofascism is the ideology taught to kids in many (not all, I hope) Madrassas throughout the middle east. The fruits born of that education are people who fly airplanes into buildings full of innocent people. This is not to say that most Muslims are fascist, but it only takes a fairly small percentage of the largest religion on Earth to make things unpleasant for everybody, Muslims and infidels alike.

    So how many people worship in the Islamic fashion, and how many people flew planes into buildings? What is the math on that? What is the percentage of islamofascists to people who worship in the Islamic faith?

  149. wayne,

    We aren’t having trouble understanding what the people who use the term mean by it, any more than we have trouble understanding what the Bolsheviks meant by “kulaks.” We just think it’s bullshit.

    The definition you just provided does not include Saddam Hussein or Bashir Assad, who are clearly supposed to fit into that category.

    Even if your definition was the operative one, it would still be a misnomer. Fascism is a actual, historical phenomenon with certain characteristics, not a catch-all term for bad guys. Do you see politically-violent Muslim fundamentalists arguing for biological definitions of the People? Endorsing corporatist economic policies? Those are fundamental, non-negotiable planks of fascism, and they are completely absent in the jihadist/wahabbist political movements.

    The Muslims you describe are bad dudes, but they are not fascists. They are something else, with their own specific beliefs and means of operationg. Misunderstanding the nature of the threat can only serve to make it harder to defeat that threat, and that is a luxury we cannot afford.

  150. iih,

    I was being sarcastic.

  151. I don’t think people with ties to the Middle East would be too thrilled at the prospect of living as a religious minority in an avowedly-religious nation.

    Their freedom to worship as they choose is far safer in the US than anywhere in the Middle East. And that definitely wouldn’t change under a Ron Paul presidency.

  152. iih,

    In the US, there are a lot of workplaces, classrooms, and neighborhoods which are populated by a large group of white people and one black guy. It’s become a well-known, much mocked practice to ask The Black Guy his opinion, and treat his opinion as “what black people think.”

    I was making a joke about your being The One Muslim Guy, like The One Black Guy.

  153. In the town I live in, some chaps decided to throw bricks through the windows of store keepers they thought were islamofascists one fine evening. Of course, the store keepers were greeks.

  154. joe,

    Does that make you the One Liberal Guy? Or should I say, the One Progressofascist Guy?

  155. “However, I don’t believe anybody’s service status makes them more or less qualified to speak on any philosophical point.”

    I absolutely agree with this point. The only advantages I have by being here are that I have met a fair number of real Iraqis, and heard their stories directly, and I have become more attuned to the whole situation because I am in the middle of it.

    I am no hero. I came over here for several reasons, none of them heroic. The main reason I came is because my 20 year-old son is in the US Army in the 4th Infantry Division. I was pretty certain he was coming over here, so I figured I would join him. As luck would have it, he was assigned to Korea for a year instead. He just came back to the states from Korea in September. The rumor mill says he will soon be headed this way though, so I will probably get to meet up with him soon.

  156. Their freedom to worship as they choose is far safer in the US than anywhere in the Middle East.

    Certainly that is true, but I’m sure you could see how relgious minorities could see any politics that would move us away from secularism and towards a national Christian identity as being a step away from that tradition of tolerance and freedom for religious minorities, and how people with familitarity with the Middle East could be especially apprhenstive about what such a movement could mean.

  157. wayne:

    Islamofascism to me implies an organized, nationalistic movement meant to drive hoards of people against a perceived enemy. The appendage “fascism” implies a well organized, systematic ideology., while this is partially true, it gives it a sense of place and nation. Appending it to “Islam” implies that anyone who is “Islamic” is part of that “fascist state”. Which is far from true. That is why many Muslims are extremely alarmed by the choice of word. “Islamofascism” also implies that there is no substitute for “fascism” in Islam, for why don’t they (those who coined the term) offer an alternative solution (that does not dismiss Islam from the picture)?

  158. crimethink,

    I get the One Liberal Guy treatment on occasion.

    I get asked who I’m supporting in the primaries a lot.

    I’m not complaining, but yeah, sometimes.

  159. oldnumberseven,

    If I recall, there were more than a few incidents like that during the Crusades, where the Christian soldiers would go through an Eastern Christian town in the Near East and kill the residents because they looked like Muslims.

  160. joe:

    I see. You do not know any Muslim guys? I thought that there were plenty in the North side of MA, no?

  161. “They only write islamofascist because they can not write sand-nigger and be taken seriously. They only write islamofascist so that the Git-R-Done crowd will be frightened and vote the way the writer desires.”

    One universal truth that I have discovered is that those who disagree with you in America will ultimately call you a racist, and THEY will always trot out an ugly racist epithet to “bolster” their point. That has convinced me who the real racists are.

  162. crimethink:

    Their freedom to worship as they choose is far safer in the US than anywhere in the Middle East. And that definitely wouldn’t change under a Ron Paul presidency.

    Ditto! Certainly ditto!

  163. some chaps decided to throw bricks through the windows of store keepers they thought were islamofascists one fine evening. Of course, the store keepers were greeks.

    How do you know they weren’t going after those Greek-Orthodofascists too?

  164. Their freedom to worship as they choose is far safer in the US than anywhere in the Middle East. And that definitely wouldn’t change under a Ron Paul presidency.

    I completely agree. As an atheist –

    It’s the same old story
    Everywhere I go,
    I get slandered,
    Libeled,
    I hear words I never heard
    In the Bible*

    But, I’ve never been aasaulted or forced to worship anything I don’t believe in. It (theocracy) won’t happen here.

    *Paul Simon

  165. The other problem with the term “Islamofascism” is that comparing the jihadist enemy with the Nazi enemy carries the implication that they should be fought in the same manner.

    It’s an attempt to steal a base for those arguing for a main-force military response (attack, invade, capture, hold territory) as opposed to the smaller-force, more precise, more targetted actions against stateless terrorist groups.

    That “there are no good targets in Afghanistan” strategy brought us into Iraq, allowed the Taliban and al Qaeda to come back from the brink of collapse in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and has more-or-less shut down the actual war on terror.

  166. iih,

    I know a few – I voted for one for City Council – but not well enough to discuss politics with them.

  167. iih | November 24, 2007, 1:03pm | #

    …that there is no substitute for “fascism” in Islam, for why don’t they (those who coined the term) offer an alternative solution (that does not dismiss Islam from the picture)?

    Holy Christ!

    They don’t want to. Americans, be they socialist, capitalist, communist, libertarian, independent, are anti-fascist. Ernest Hemingway, the greatest American that ever lived, described himself as an anti-fascist. Every great American that we ever learned about in grade school, junior high, senior high, and college are anti-fascists.

  168. One universal truth that I have discovered is that those who disagree with you in America will ultimately call you a racist, and THEY will always trot out an ugly racist epithet to “bolster” their point.

    “The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk, but the third time someone calls you a horse, well, then perhaps it’s time to go shopping for a saddle.”

  169. joe,

    How exactly is Ron Paul going to move us toward a national Christian identity? Really, you’re spewing Edwardian nonsense here. Do you still not understand that Dr Paul’s opinions rarely translate into policy positions?

  170. You gotta admit, wayne, there are certainly some people who use the term in exactly that sense.

  171. Ah, thanks prolefeed, I did not see that Mr Hadley is as of yet just pretty much a tourist who missed his return flight.

    There really isn’t a Republican Party in Hawaii, anyway — the tiny contingent of ostensible Republican legislators has been hijacked by the center-left Linglecrats.

    So (serious question) do you think this is the exact same dynamic as the New York City Republican party and (pre-9/11) Giuliani?

  172. crimethink,

    I didn’t say he would, just that his rhetoric about the Christian roots of this nation and his attacks on “secularists” can certainly create that impression. As a matter of fact, Paul seems to be counting on exactly that perception as he attempts to court Republican primary voters.

  173. “The appendage “fascism” implies a well organized, systematic ideology., while this is partially true, it gives it a sense of place and nation. Appending it to “Islam” implies that anyone who is “Islamic” is part of that “fascist state”.”

    I would say any muslim who behaves as a fascist; who uses the Koran as justification for murder and barbaric acts; who believes that the world needs to be shed of non-Muslims, can rightly be called an Islamofascist. Fascism is not confined to Islam, but there is a struggle between a small percentage of Muslims and non-Muslims that cries out for categorization. Just as it might be appropriate when you meet a loud, obnoxious over bearing blowhard to say, “my, that fellow is disturbingly loud, obnoxious, overbearing and insufferable”, it is just so much more succinct to say, “what a dickhead”.

  174. How do you know they weren’t going after those Greek-Orthodofascists too?

    Those damn bearded funny-hat wearing filioque-deniers.

  175. wayne | November 24, 2007, 1:06pm | #

    One universal truth that I have discovered is that those who disagree with you in America will ultimately call you a racist, and THEY will always trot out an ugly racist epithet to “bolster” their point. That has convinced me who the real racists are.

    Yep, I hope we toss a bomb on them.

  176. Jihadist.

    Islamist.

    Violent Islam.

    Theocracy.

    There are plenty of terms for what you’re describing, wayne, that don’t suggest misleading parallels between two very different ideologies and movements.

    The term Islamofascism was coined, and has become popular, specifically because of the misleading parallels it creates.

  177. Brian Courts | November 24, 2007, 1:07pm | #

    How do you know they weren’t going after those Greek-Orthodofascists too?

    You have me there. Maybe brick throwers did not like ouzo.

  178. How do you know they weren’t going after those Greek-Orthodofascists too?

    Those damn bearded funny-hat wearing filioque-deniers.

    But I like their music. Shouldn’t that count for something?

  179. wayne,

    By that definition, there are probably a few hundred “Islamofascists” in the world. Their numbers are dwarfed by the ranks of Muslims out to avenge US interference in their politics, both real and perceived.

  180. “The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk, but the third time someone calls you a horse, well, then perhaps it’s time to go shopping for a saddle.”

    Thanks for the education. You just have to call somebody your favorite boogeyman-label THREE times and the deed is done.

    One thing I can say with certainty is that I have never used the N word on H&R.

  181. Hot Greek chicks too.

  182. wayne | November 24, 2007, 1:16pm | #

    …but there is a struggle between a small percentage of Muslims and non-Muslims that cries out for categorization. Just as it might be appropriate when you meet a loud, obnoxious over bearing blowhard to say, “my, that fellow is disturbingly loud, obnoxious, overbearing and insufferable”, it is just so much more succinct to say, “what a dickhead”.

    Are you in grade school?

    WTF?

  183. Crimethink,

    I take it that you have not seen the video clips prepubescent children in various Madrassas chanting “death to America”, etc?

  184. I guess that’s why people who throw around the term “Islamofascist” are so reluctant to define it: you have to either make it such a broad classification as to provoke accusations of racism/religionism, or so narrow that it becomes hard to believe that such a small group could really be an existential threat.

  185. I would say any muslim who behaves as a fascist; who uses the Koran as justification for murder and barbaric acts; who believes that the world needs to be shed of non-Muslims, can rightly be called an Islamofascist.

    What about who those who use the Qur’an to attack innocent (non-fascist) Muslims? The “Islamofascists” (according to your definition, while I would not agree with your nomenclature) and Muslim-haters use the same Qur’anic verses to justify attacking the other side. The former use the Qur’an to attack and kill non-Muslims, and the latter use the same verses as evidence that Muslims (anyone who admits to being Muslim ,regardless of specific religious views) can’t be anything but fascists. Both ignore the Qur’anic counter-evidence given here.

  186. wayne,

    I could show you a few video clips of Catholic school kids chanting “Amen” to stuff that they probably won’t abide by once they grow up, too.

    Also, realize that people who are really or perceivedly oppressed often become fanatical in their religion. Once we stop messing around in Middle Eastern politics, acting as if we have a right to tell its people who is going to rule their nations, those madrassas are going to have a harder sell.

  187. “What about who those who use the Qur’an to attack innocent (non-fascist) Muslims? ”

    I am perfectly willing to label them Islamofascists as well.

  188. wayne | November 24, 2007, 1:25pm | #

    Crimethink,

    I take it that you have not seen the video clips prepubescent children in various Madrassas chanting “death to America”, etc?

    Holy shit Wayne! Are you advocating we should take those islamofascist children off to some sort of re-education camp? Some place safe, where they can get the love and proper re-education they need.

    Or, should we just exterminate the brutesl? Drop the bomb, says I.

  189. I am perfectly willing to label them Islamofascists as well.

    I was talking about the non-Muslims who do so. E.g., many (not all) of those behind “Islamofascism Week”.

  190. The problem I have with mainstream Islam is its apparent willingness to shield the fanatics in their midst.

  191. Drop the bomb, says I.

    I hope you’re kidding. Are you voting Tancredo?

  192. “I could show you a few video clips of Catholic school kids chanting “Amen” to stuff that they probably won’t abide by once they grow up, too.”

    Come back when you can show me videos of catholic school girls flying airplanes into buildings full of innocent people. Then you will have a good foundation for an argument.

  193. “I hope you’re kidding. Are you voting Tancredo?”

    He is not kidding, he is drunk.

  194. I prefer this instead:

    The problem I have with mainstream Islam many Muslims is its apparent willingness to shield the fanatics in their midst.

    I reall believe that the best way to reform Muslims has to come from within and through, Islam (and it can change, see my blog, first article). It is human nature to resist change. So I advocate an ideological path that uses Islam to fight Islamic extremism, instead of fighting Islam, which has in the past (see Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Pakistan) resulted in nothing but more people going underground, fueling and abetting more extremism.

  195. iih | November 24, 2007, 1:39pm | #

    I hope you’re kidding. Are you voting Tancredo?

    Take a look at a book called ‘Heart of Darkness’ by Joseph Conrad.

    I would never vote Tancredo.

  196. wayne | November 24, 2007, 1:42pm | #

    Come back when you can show me videos of catholic school girls flying airplanes into buildings full of innocent people. Then you will have a good foundation for an argument.

    Are you basing this on the number of deaths per terrorist act, or the audacity of the act?

  197. “I reall believe that the best way to reform Muslims has to come from within and through, Islam… So I advocate an ideological path that uses Islam to fight Islamic extremism…”

    I agree, but I have not seen any efforts made along those lines.

  198. wayne | November 24, 2007, 1:49pm | #

    I agree, but I have not seen any efforts made along those lines.

    Because you have not seen them, are they not there?

  199. I agree, but I have not seen any efforts made along those lines.

    There are, they are not given much attention by the MSM here (not as exciting as seeing bombs go off somewhere or Britney exposing herself). Then there are those who really do not like Islam altogether. They find some of those who give hope and adopt my kind of philosophy and try to smear them to death. That is why I keep myself anonymous.

  200. wayne | November 24, 2007, 1:49pm | #

    I agree, but I have not seen any efforts made along those lines.

    Because you have not seen them, are they not there?

    Have you sought them out, or should the mountain come to Mohammed? So to speak.

  201. If I had to break the 76 seat legislature down by actual political affiliation, rather than stated party, it would be about like this:

    5 Communists
    4 Greens
    25 Socialists
    30 Democrats
    4 Democrats posing as Republicans
    4 Centrist Linglecrats posing as Republicans
    3 Republicans
    1 small-l right-libertarian

    And a partridge in a pear tree…

  202. Sorry to interrupt the islamofascist debate, but for those who were discussing the banned commenters issue last night, here’s the infamous Tim Cavanaugh / Gary Gunnels thread which includes Tim’s email to Gary and explanation of the ban:

    Tim Cavanaugh | April 5, 2005, 4:22pm | #
    I never justify myself, but since Gary is a good old boy (and I blocked a few of his hundreds of IPs solely in the hope of getting him to modify his behavior somewhat), I give you the full text of my message to him:

    Actually, Gary, yes, you have been blocked. It hurts me more than it hurts you, but you’ve hijacked your last thread.

    I’ll be happy to unblock your IP on the following conditions:

    No more consecutive comments. Post one, and don’t post again until somebody else posts.

    No more abusive language.

    No more accusing anybody of not addressing the point you raised, not answering your question, etc.

    No more citations of song lyrics, legal material, or anything else of more than 100 words.

    No more Jean Bart, Jason Bourne, Merovingian, etc. From now on you stick with Gary Gunnels and whatever his purported biography and identity is.

    No more hijacking threads in any other way.

    If you agree to these terms, reply in the affirmative. If you want to argue about it, point out others who are guilty of the same stuff, or in any other way give any backtalk, then I wish you the best of luck somewhere other than Reason.

    yr pal,

    tim

    As his intemperate private reply to me and his peevish comments here indicate, Gary has chosen not to address my concerns. Since IPs are easy to come by, he can certainly find ways to keep making comments, but I had hoped he would listen to reason. Gary’s yoke is mild and his burden light, but he remains stiffnecked.

    The rules around who gets to post, how the rules get enforced, what comments are out of bounds, etc., are simple: They are whatever I decide they are at any given moment. If any of you think that my way of running things is unfair, or that that it doesn’t result in a remarkably open and varied comment forum, well, go post your thoughts at Andrew Sullivan, Instapundit, National Review Online, etc.

    Oh, and the not-quite-as-infamous Jennifer (temporary) ban thread here in which Tim Cavanaugh explained, in part:

    My objection to comments like the one at issue has nothing to do with federal laws or threats. Do not make comments that threaten, speculate about, express approval of, show idle curiosity regarding, counterfactually fantasize about, or in any other way entertain the idea of death or bodily injury against any other person. That goes for public figures, fellow commenters, Reason staffers, and any other individual.

    As I have said before, there are no official rules around what’s approved and what’s not-though I am considering a general ban on anybody who bellyaches about Reason’s comments-editing policy. Exercise common sense and discretion, avoid doing anything that will require me to do any extra work, and above all avoid the occasions of sin, and you’ll be in the clear.

    We now return you to your regularly-scheduled debate, already in progress. 🙂

  203. I imagine that a rifle scope is a less than ideal portal for viewing the liberalization and democratization of a society.

    What are they, still too mouthy at the checkpoints?

  204. Beautiful. My “Christian Fanatic” hero has spoken 😉

    Ron Paul with Nevada NewsMakers 2007.11.20 part 1

  205. Do not make comments that threaten, speculate about, express approval of, show idle curiosity regarding, counterfactually fantasize about, or in any other way entertain the idea of death or bodily injury against any other person. That goes for public figures, fellow commenters, Reason staffers, and any other individual.

    Does that include nuking the middle east?

  206. “There are, they are not given much attention by the MSM here…”

    Maybe so.

  207. Come back when you can show me videos of catholic school girls flying airplanes into buildings full of innocent people. Then you will have a good foundation for an argument.

    Well here is a picture of a “Christian terrorist”. Here is another. Would you like a third? I’ve got plenty of them.

    Perhaps we should declare war on the Jesusfascists? Look at their history.

  208. OldNumber,

    Are you fantasizing about nuking the middle east?

  209. JsubD,

    That is funny! You trot out pictures of Hernando Cortes. Man, that is relevant to the 21st century!

  210. wayne | November 24, 2007, 2:00pm | #

    Maybe so.

    wayne’s response. What a @^#^(!%#.

  211. wayne,

    You may want to read the book description for
    Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (one of RP’s reading material for Rudy).

  212. “@^#^(!%#.”

    Speak English, or did you spill your drink on the keyboard?

  213. Man, that is relevant to the 21st century!

    That’s why I gave you Tim Mcveigh as well. You remember him, don’t you. #2 on the bombing hit parade. You are attempting to judge approx. 1,000,000,000 people based ont the actions of say, 3,000 terrorists, is my guess. What’s yours, genius?

  214. wayne | November 24, 2007, 2:03pm | #

    Are you fantasizing about nuking the middle east?

    Only on my most cynical days. Days when I read the shit chaps like yourself write. Then I think, well, you don’t really care what I think, so I will not bother to share it with you.

    But on this day, you wayne, have inspired me to say:

    ‘Exterminate the brutes.’

    brutes, islamofascists etc…

  215. “Perhaps we should declare war on the Jesusfascists? Look at their history.”

    Just in case you are the least bit serious: I am perfectly willing to pursue and prosecute Christian fascists as well.

  216. “But on this day, you wayne, have inspired me to say:

    ‘Exterminate the brutes.’

    brutes, islamofascists etc…”

    Careful old boy, you might pop one of those swollen blood vessels in your nose..

  217. “That’s why I gave you Tim Mcveigh as well. ”

    I am glad you mentioned him. Whatever happened to old Timothy McVeigh? I haven’t heard much from him lately. I wonder what he is up to now days?

  218. wayne | November 24, 2007, 2:13pm | #

    prosecute

    or persecute? I could see wayne as one of those roman guard who led Jesus of to his crucifixion.

  219. Come back when you can show me videos of catholic school girls flying airplanes

    I’ve got some Catholic school girl videos I could show you, but they’re not exactly flying airplanes in them.

  220. wayne | November 24, 2007, 2:14pm | #

    Careful old boy, you might pop one of those swollen blood vessels in your nose..

    Not sure what you mean by that. You will have to explain for me to get the joke.

  221. “You are attempting to judge approx. 1,000,000,000 people based ont the actions of say, 3,000 terrorists, is my guess…”

    You are apparently too agitated to read my posts, or your comprehension isn’t what it ought to be. I am NOT indicting all one billion Muslims. I specifically said a small percentage of Muslims (for Joe, not specifically Arab Muslims, either) are fascists.

  222. Whatever happened to old Timothy McVeigh? I haven’t heard much from him lately. I wonder what he is up to now days?

    Hey, thanks for asking. I wish I had time to stay and chat, but I’m really buried right now.

  223. I heard Tim Mcveigh fucked a horse once. What a sick fuck.

  224. “prosecute

    or persecute? I could see wayne as one of those roman guard who led Jesus of to his crucifixion.”

    Well, I said prosecute. This is getting pretty damn funny; now I am driving nails through the poor Christ child.

    The nose joke: Alcoholics often develop large rosette noses with blood vessles at the surface ala W.C. Fields.

  225. Tim,

    Thanks for checking in! I need all the help I can get with these guys.

  226. wayne, J sub D:

    Fawkes was a Catholic terrorist, no?

  227. Tim,

    That was very funny!

  228. I am perfectly willing to pursue and prosecute Christian fascists as well.

    Wow, that’s what thinking people said after 9/11.
    BTW, Eric Robert Rudolph had assiustance by the local Xian populace. Let’s invade North Carolina.

  229. Look, I’m not trying a threadjack here, or start a pc tidal wave, but it strikes me that the creation of the State of Israel has done more to “fanatacize” the Middle East than anything else. Don’t get me wrong, part of the reason for this is an underlying meme of anti-semitism in that area (making it all the more atrocious to those folks), but it really was one of the most boneheaded things done in this century. In fact, if you read some of the Zionist stuff it sounds closer to fascism than “political Islam” (all the “One Land for One People” stuff, the ethnic purity talk, the link to a Glorious Past and Stunning Future).

    I think if we were more fair minded in the Arab/Israel conflict, from the very beginning, then wayne and other heroic people would not be over there thesedays. We’re fighting battles that were started by that historical blunder.

    *Sadly these days the usual disclaimer should be inserted here:
    1. I don’t think Jewish people are inferior, nefarious, bad, etc. In fact I think that they are culturally seldom matched and responsible for ethical and intellectual precepts that were world changing (for the better).
    2. I think that their (and at that only a segment of that community, another credit to them) hyper-nationalism is no morally worse than any other, and in fact given what they faced in Europe entirely understandable (while still nutty). I also think Zionists in the US are doing nothing that any ethnic or religious lobby does, just they are good at it (but again so are other ethnic lobbies, like the Cuban lobby).
    3. I don’t for a second think the “Israel Lobby” “caused” us to be in the current conflict. It was WASPish Christians who made nearly every major decision to go to war in Iraq.

  230. This thread has turned quite hilarious. I am going to smoke a cigar now, but you guys continue to argue amongst yourselves until I get back.

  231. What about Uganda’s Lord’s Resistance Army. They are terrorists, no? And Christian-motivated. Why isn’t the US fighting those terrorists, too? You see, many Muslims see these discrepancies, along with conflation of Islam and fascism, and would either (a) be easy resource for the terrorists, or (b) decide to remain moderate (most do anyways), but not too enthusiastic about supporting the WoT as the perceive it as a war on Islam. That is why, again, I say winning the WoT has to be through Islam and not against it.

  232. wayne | November 24, 2007, 2:22pm | #

    The nose joke: Alcoholics often develop large rosette noses with blood vessles at the surface ala W.C. Fields.

    Yeah, you are a regular laugh riot wayne. If I was not drunk at the moment I might mistake you for someone with a sense of humor. But I am drunk, and you have not said a humorous thing on this thread. So, all I know is you are some sort of fellow who is frightened by muslims and think they are islamofascists and I take your opinion seriously and say exterminate the brutes.

  233. “nothing different that any ethnic or religious lobby does”

  234. iih | November 24, 2007, 2:28pm | #

    That is why, again, I say winning the WoT has to be through Islam and not against it.

    You speak logic. Not aloud in current climate. Wait until global warming has its way, then logic, may be aloud again.

  235. MNG, good points all. Hindsight being 20/20, perhaps we should have given the Jews a new promised land in North America. Alas, what is done cannot be undone.

  236. I am perfectly willing to pursue and prosecute Christian fascists as well.

    but where are we going to find a prison big enough to hold pro-war republicans?

    infrastructure is important!

  237. The WoR (War on Republicans), how apt!

  238. “Yeah, you are a regular laugh riot wayne.”

    Thanks… I try.

    “If I was not drunk at the moment… But I am drunk…”
    No? Really? I guess I just got lucky with that guess.

  239. A very good article by our very own Nick Gillespie supportive of Ron Paul

  240. Speaking aloud is allowed!

  241. wayne-

    I think I have answered one of your earlier questions at 2:28 above.

  242. BTW, Eric Robert Rudolph had assistance by the local Xian populace. Let’s invade North Carolina.

    Been there, done that. Need another hassle like that like I need a hole in my head.

  243. “What about Uganda’s Lord’s Resistance Army. They are terrorists, no? And Christian-motivated. Why isn’t the US fighting those terrorists, too?”

    IIh, I have never heard of the Lord’s Resistance Army, but I will take your word for it. As to why we are not fighting them, maybe it is because they have not attacked us.

    “That is why, again, I say winning the WoT has to be through Islam and not against it.”
    So, you agree that it is Islam that is behind the terrorism against the west (and east)?

  244. If you smoked it in less than 20 minutes, it must not have been a very good cigar.

  245. “If you smoked it in less than 20 minutes, it must not have been a very good cigar.”

    I only smoked half of it. I am trying to quit. Swisher Sweet, the cigar enjoyed by gentlemen the world over.

  246. wayne | November 24, 2007, 2:51pm | #

    So, you agree that it is Islam that is behind the terrorism against the west (and east)?

    Do you agree you are the chief cocksucker wayne, or the deputy?

  247. “Been there, done that. Need another hassle like that like I need a hole in my head.”

    Abe, don’t you mean ANOTHER hole in your head?

  248. “Do you agree you are the chief cocksucker wayne, or the deputy?”

    You seem peeved, ONS. Has the bottle run dry?

  249. So, you agree that it is Islam that is behind the terrorism against the west (and east)?

    There is nothing in this world that does not have dual use. It applies to Islam as it does with other religions (or lack-their-of-philosophies). All I am saying is that the West should work closely with moderate Muslims within and without the West to defeat the extremists.

    If you want my own belief, the Qur’an can not be taken piecemeal. The terrorists take certain texts (very scary ones, no doubt, as in the Old Testament) out context and ignore the verses that seem to be in stark contradiction. To say the least, the Qur’an is a complex legal text. The shallow terrorists and Muslim-haters take the part that suites their purposes and, superficially and shallowly, interpret them. Again see my second article on my blog (click my name).

  250. PEARL HARBOUR, HI, USNA– Presidential candidate Rudy “Mitt” Rompson was outed as a Fascist Party member after being linked to a fundraising website promising to reopen World War II on behalf of the Imperial Axis. His membership was proven under United States of North America law when he failed to deny connection with the website within 72 hours of its registration.

    Early this month, the same law had nearly branded Ron Paul as an Anarchist Party member, but he was acquitted due to the technicality that anarchists don’t form parties.

  251. There is nothing in this world that does not have dual use.

    In the case of my anus, I beg to differ. It’s for one thing only.

  252. “There is nothing in this world that does not have dual use. It applies to Islam as it does with other religions (or lack-their-of-philosophies). All I am saying is that the West should work closely with moderate Muslims within and without the West to defeat the extremists.”

    Iih, I used a cheap semantics trick in my response to you. I was just kidding you, mostly. As I said, several times, I am not indicting all of Islam.

  253. OK all you haters, I am going to bed. ONS, have another snort for me.

  254. crimethinkIn the case of my anus, I beg to differ. It’s for one thing only.

    Then how do you poop?

  255. One thing before I go to bed: What is an anarcho-capitalist?

  256. Oh, J and Sub D I actually agree…I’m not sure that anything we could do now about Israel would make up to our enemies in the Middle East, at least for decades (and I think we ought to do some of those things, because my kids will be around decades later). I think the creation of and backing of the State of Israel started much of the fire, but Arab intransgience helps keep it going…

  257. One thing before I go to bed: What is an anarcho-capitalist?

    Unless you have a night to spare, it is someone who, roughly, is pro 100% government nonintervention in the economy.

    Wiki it. They have a good article.

    Also wiki Uganda’s LRA. They are not small, are behind the longest standing atrocity in Africa, and quite very brutal.

  258. Oh, J and Sub D I actually agree…
    Mr. Nice Guy, you sound surprised that I’d agree with you on something. For the record, I readilly acknowledge intelligent points and reasoned arguments no matter the source. Those who adopt an opposite attitude are commonly known as fools, intellectual slackers, et al.

  259. I’ve got to get a copy of Italics for Dummies.

  260. Iih, I used a cheap semantics trick in my response to you. I was just kidding you, mostly. As I said, several times, I am not indicting all of Islam.

    Well, this helped me express something important anyways.

    Good discussion. I have to go, too.

  261. J sub D
    The Oh was for enthusiasm, it strikes me that we’ve disagreed on quite a bit and disagreed on quite a bit. Heck, I’ve even agreed with SIV every Halley’s comet ;). You know what they say, if you let a monkey wack a typewriters keys long enough you’ll eventually get a line of shakespeare.

  262. I meant “disagreed quite a bit and agreed quite a bit.” I need Writin For Dummies…

  263. wayne, what are you thoughts on Vietnam? Did we leave too soon? Should we still be there?

    When we left Vietnam, there was a wave of violence but, it was temporary, and Vietnam has been making progress ever since. We now trade with Vietnam, Americans travel to Vietnam and individuals and businesses alike, invest in Vietnam.

    I believe there probably will be violence when we leave Iraq but I still have come to the conclusion that leaving ASAP is what’s best for the US and Iraq.

    Ayn_Randian, I’m glad to hear that. I was actually worried about reading additional Rand books after I heard Peikoff. I didn’t want to tarnish my view of 2 of my favorite books. Now I can read Anthem.

  264. here’s the infamous Tim Cavanaugh / Gary Gunnels thread which includes Tim’s email to Gary and explanation of the ban:

    interestingly, tim banned me with no explanation and wouldn’t respond to my emails asking why. i must have done something really, really egregious.

  265. Is this the same edna whom I owe a free lunch?

  266. Anarcho-capitalism is old and busted

    Agorism is the new hotness

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism

  267. It’s a little surprising, how little sting the “nazi” and “9/11 truther” attacks are hurting Paul. Maybe they’re an internet phenomenon with no purchase in the real world. You know, like the Paul campaign used to be.

    Maybe because the only places peddling them enthusiastically are Team Red outlets, who can’t say “OMG, small-government crazies! They want to get rid of the IRS!” quite as convincingly as members of Team Blue can. And, right now, folks just aren’t paying as much attention to what Team Red diehards are saying.

  268. Maybe it has something to do with Ron Paul getting very, very little media attention of any sort.

    I hear those attacks on Chris Dodd’s relationship with the banking and insurance industries aren’t getting a lot of play, either.

  269. Remember the South Carolina “Firewall” Lee Atwater built in the 1980s. If a non-Establishment-Republican does too well in New Hampshire and Iowa – like Pat Buchanan in 1992, or John McCain in 2000 – they start cranking out the despicable windshield fliers, push polls, and other dirty tricks.

  270. they start cranking out the despicable windshield fliers, push polls, and other dirty tricks.

    … and unfortunately the sheep (using Napolitano’s term) have attentive ears and are obliged to do nothing but obey, unless an awakening happens.

  271. I hear those attacks on Chris Dodd’s relationship with the banking and insurance industries aren’t getting a lot of play, either.

    No, joe. THAT’S because the media is full of craven liberals who want to help Dodd win.

    You’re a stubborn one, but we’ll teach you.

  272. Dodd would be a lot better than just about every other Democrat. Well, at least in a tie with Richardson for that honor.

  273. What I’ve never understood is why the first couple of states are so terribly important in these primaries. It’s almost as if you’re watching a baseball game where the outcome is decided after the first inning.

    I mean, why is it so impossible for someone to lose in tiny, early states like Iowa and NH, but then go on to win in larger states that have later primaries?

  274. Plain text is a difficult medium, crimethink.

    That was a joke, right?

  275. crimmethink-

    I don’t know either and found it very odd when I first came to the US and watched the 2000 elections. But I have read it somewhere that IA and NH are representative of the entire (i.e., like taking a poll, where the sample size is the size of the residents of NH and IA).

  276. insert “country” after “entire”

  277. Dodd would be a lot better than just about every other Democrat. Well, at least in a tie with Richardson for that honor.

    Yup. But they’d never pick Dodd.

  278. Heh, looks like at least one Thompson supporter has a “Fred’s Giving Day” hangover:

    Thank you to all of those who supported Fred’s Giving Day. 🙂

    To all the decent Ron Paul supporters out there, my apologies for what I am about to say. This does not pertain to you.

    A special shout out to all the Paul supporters who littered this site with phony pledges and racist e-mail addresses. Of all the supporters of different candidates out there, it was only you guys who took the time to make asses of yourselves. Only you.

    Laugh now guys. Enjoy your moment.

    My turn will come in a few months from now when Ron Paul’s campaign is no more. You see, you can raise all the money in the world, but when you go around continually insulting and pissing off the hearts and minds that you need to win elections, you get nowhere!

    That’s where you’ll be in a few months, and that’s just what you deserve.

  279. Dodd, is he the guy with the gray hair, or the other one with gray hair with a fly on it? No, just kidding.

  280. iih,

    IA and NH are both pretty homogeneous rural northern states. Illinois is much more of a bellweather state (you’ve got a massive megalopolis, a large swath of midwestern farm country, and a sizable southern-ish area) and their primary is pretty much ignored because it’s in March.

  281. crimethink- Yeah, it baffles me too, but I heard one of the talking heads say this a while ago.

  282. Is this the same edna whom I owe a free lunch?

    tanstaafl, achaver. but yes, anytime you’re in the sf bay area, it’s on me.

  283. edna-

    HA! Since it is now on you, I actually think it was dinner. TANSTAAFD?

  284. Remember the South Carolina “Firewall” Lee Atwater built in the 1980s. If a non-Establishment-Republican does too well in New Hampshire and Iowa – like Pat Buchanan in 1992, or John McCain in 2000 – they start cranking out the despicable windshield fliers, push polls, and other dirty tricks.

    I don’t disagree with the analysis, just two minor points
    1) Would you say the same dynamic occurred with Howard Dean in ’04 as the non-Establishment candidate?
    2) ‘Dirty tricks’ again Pat Buchanan? Pat Frackin’ Buchanan?! Against a man, per wikipedia “was the first person hired as an advisor to Nixon’s presidential campaign; he worked primarily as an opposition researcher.” What happened to McCain may or may not have been excessively dirty (vice politics as usual since Grover Cleveland or even Andrew Jackson), but any ’92 shenanigans are just distilled 195 proof karma.

    What is more interesting about what you said is that it brings up the question:

    Who the heck would be the “Establishment” Republican in this race? For the Democrats, that’s an easy question. However, as there is no Bush in this election for only the second time in 28 years, there doesn’t seem to be anyone who’s equivalent to (Sen) Clinton. Each of the Republican candidates (including Paul) represents a portion of the Reagan/George W. coalition, but ideologically, it doesn’t seem like anyone has a clear majority where the Establishment can come to consensus. There would seem to be a high risk of fratricide if one goes into the ‘snake-eater’ style of politics too early.

  285. Watching that Cavuto interview, what I think the GOP “establishment” needs, and may seek, most is Ron Paul. Yes with all the seeming opposition to him by other GOPers. He would mend the image of the GOP, while not implementing much of his agenda, in their view, because the Dems and a few “dispensable” republicans would oppose him in Congress. In 4 or 8 years time, a seemingly benign substitute will emerge and things will be back on track for the extreme right wing elements of the GOP. Otherwise, it is loss-loss situation for the hawks. I think.

  286. Gold prices are up $20 an ounce in the past 24 hours…now at $820/oz.

    ::kicks self for not buying gold a few months ago::

    So, if the US$ crashes, is this good or bad for Ron Paul? Discuss.

  287. crimethink-
    At $1.50 for a Euro, I’m not sure your verb tense is correct.

  288. Good point. I’m seriously wondering whether I should get up early and go to my local gold dealer Monday morning and stock up. It’s probably not a good idea to buy high…but I’m not sure $820/oz is going to look “high” in a few weeks.

  289. OTOH, we’re not in Zimbabwe territory yet.

  290. So, if the US$ crashes, is this good or bad for Ron Paul? Discuss.
    I know it is certainly bad for a person like me.

  291. I’m torn. The dollar crashing would be terrible for me, since I don’t have any real assets. But, it would vindicate Dr Paul’s monetary policy positions; and saying “I told you so” to all the people I know who made fun of the gold standard might be worth it.

  292. edna was banned? WTF? I’ve had heartfelt disagreements with edna (over Israel stuff) and never found her anything but polite…That she was banned, of all, people, finds me dumbfounded…

  293. MNG- I think edna is a guy, no? edna?

  294. Oh, and the not-quite-as-infamous Jennifer (temporary) ban thread here in which Tim Cavanaugh explained, in part:

    Do not make comments that threaten, speculate about, express approval of, show idle curiosity regarding, counterfactually fantasize about, or in any other way entertain the idea of death or bodily injury against any other person. That goes for public figures, fellow commenters, Reason staffers, and any other individual.

    Mmm-kay. Can’t talk about the death penalty, either pro or con. Can’t say that the world would be a lot better place if (insert arsehole politician’s name here) were to drop dead of a heart attack. Can’t talk about the consequences of socialized medicine (you know, the killing people thingy). Can’t do like an editor at Harper’s did, in a wonderfully sarcastic non-critical criticism, where he repeatedly talked about how, theoretically, it might or might not be illegal to talk about whether it was OK to speculate about strangling Bush with one’s bare hands. Etc.

    Talk about a really sloppy job of wording an allegedly unwritten policy.

  295. edna was banned?

    under a different nick, to be sure. but, yeah, tim gave me the heave-ho, without notice, warning, or response. and to be fair, he was the bartender, it was certainly his right to bounce me, this is a private establishment. and it’s my right to think that it was done rather arbitrarily and to say i don’t miss him a bit.

    ‘s ok, there’s plenty of other ways to waste time on the internet. i understand that they use computers for that now.

  296. Illinois is much more of a bellweather state

    Naw, Illinois is a solid Team Blue state, due to the Chicago voters overwhelming the rural areas. Iowa and New Hampshire are both swing states, though if they really wanted to make the first states voting bellweathers, Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico would be better picks.

  297. edna- Curious, what’s your view on Ron Paul, especially regarding what we’ve discussed about in the past… the “tribes” 😉

  298. prolefeed,

    When I was but a lad, I remember Illinois going in the Bush I column, and a string of Republican governors (Thompson, Edgar, Ryan).

    But you’re right, it has swung massively blue in recent years. I’m not sure why…the suburbs, which used to be deep Red, are the part of Chicagoland that’s exploding, but perhaps they’re not as red as they used to be. Also, the rural areas of the state have probably been hemorrhaging population.

  299. This blog can ban anyone solely because their nick begins with the letter “k”, and still be intellectually consistent. Their servers, their rules, no matter how arbitrary or capricious, right?

    It’s a big internet, and opinions and websites, for all practical purposes, are still free, both in the political and economic sense. (and normally worth every penny.)

  300. Curious, what’s your view on Ron Paul

    i voted for him in ’88, i’ll vote for him again in ’08. is that simple enough? 😉

  301. Their servers, their rules, no matter how arbitrary or capricious, right?

    absolutely, yes.

  302. I’m not sure about that, Kolohe. Reason does often criticize private interests that attempt to squelch free speech within their domain, even while admitting that private entities are legally entitled to do so.

  303. Edward:

    …CCC, David Duke, and Stormfront say they can’t get enough of him. They know he’s one of their own.

    I’ve seen Edward make repeated ridiculous accusations of racism on this blog and URKOBOLD against Ron Paul and the URKOBOLD folks…

    http://urkobold.blogspot.com/2007/11/new-wave-saturday_17.html

    Did Ron Paul just release his “nigger policy” paper?

    …but with this, we’re shown that Edward is as lacking for decency and as he is for honesty.

  304. crimethink-
    example, if you please?

    Hell, even the Muslim brotherhood piece this past week was aggressively neutral. By which I mean: it was a hundred or so word post with only one sentence (“the Muslim Brotherhood has discovered blogging”; slightly snarky in subtext, but mostly non-judgmental) that was not a quote from a linked piece.

  305. Reason does often criticize private interests that attempt to squelch free speech within their domain, even while admitting that private entities are legally entitled to do so.

    that was my point at 11:01. it’s a completely consistent view and i respect that.

    The dollar crashing would be terrible for me, since I don’t have any real assets.

    it has been a godsend for those of us who do export business. i haven’t seen any recent panic articles about the trade deficit recently, how about you?

  306. Is Dr. Paul still undecided on that Ohio Statehood issue?

  307. – Ezra Klein advocates for a Joe Biden vice presidency. Some people call this the “silly season.”

    That one really is silly. Is Senator Biden actually using his own words this year or are his old habits just slipping under the radar?

  308. This is quite silly too, on your part David:
    – Bruce Falconer explains the rise of Help Save Manassas, the anti-immigration powerhouse in suburban DC.

    Even the Mother Jones page that you link to reveals that it is anti-illegal immigration, not all immigration. As much as the Reason Foundation may wish for any entry into any country to become legal in the future it is not now and there is a genuine, massive and vocal group who advocate secure borders. I believe Dr. Paul is in those ranks?

  309. “it has been a godsend for those of us who do export business. i haven’t seen any recent panic articles about the trade deficit recently, how about you?”

    The trade deficit is still running north of $50B per month. The death of the dollar migh seem to a few, fleetingly, like a good thing, but it is not. Pain is in the pipeline for a long time to come.

  310. The death of the dollar migh seem to a few, fleetingly, like a good thing, but it is not.

    IIRC about five years ago everyone was talking about the death of the Euro and how strong the dollar was. I see no reason why this situation can’t reverse itself completely in five years, either.

  311. ‘IIRC about five years ago everyone was talking about the death of the Euro and how strong the dollar was. I see no reason why this situation can’t reverse itself completely in five years, either.”

    The Euro is crap too. The value of the dollar relative to the euro has declined, but when you divide crap by crap, you get crap. Look for a “currency crisis” in the European Union very soon. Probably the EU will take some measure to drive down the euro, and all will seemingly be well again.

  312. The hysteria about the trade “deficit” has just been replaced by other news-typer hysteria. One being news-typer hysteria on relative value of various currencies.

  313. i voted for him in ’88, i’ll vote for him again in ’08. is that simple enough? 😉

    Excellent!

  314. Kenny,

    1) I’d say something different occured in 2004. For one thing, the Democratic Establishment was not pulling for John Kerry the way the Republican Establishment was pulling for the George Bushes in 1992 and 2000. Remember, John Kerry won Iowa to start out his run of success, and Iowa voters are known for their independence and contrarian-ness.

    2) ‘Dirty tricks’ again Pat Buchanan? Actually, as I understand it, the GOP corralled South Carolina voters not by sliming Buchanan, so much as getting religious leaders to talk up George HW Bush.

    Who the heck would be the “Establishment” Republican in this race? That’s a good point. In a sense, every one of the leading Republicans is outside of the party orthodoxy in one way or another. Still, “cutting and running” in Iraq is a red line.

  315. I’m not sure why…the suburbs, which used to be deep Red, are the part of Chicagoland that’s exploding, but perhaps they’re not as red as they used to be.

    Suburbs usually shift towards blue as they grow.

    That’s why the stats about “the 10 fastest-growing counties in the country are overwhelmingly Republican!” that get trotted out are so misleading. Sure, they’re growing. They’re also turning more Democratic. That’s how Arizona came to have a Democratic governor.

  316. To J sub D at 11:59 am yesterday (or anyone else who can edify):

    a complete Chinese fuck story

    What, please, does that expression denote? I googled it to no avail.

  317. The Boston Globe Idea section today has a story about the mythical North American Union and NAFTA Superhighway.

    According to the story, Ron Paul has been flogging these conspirac theories.

  318. 2) ‘Dirty tricks’ again Pat Buchanan? Actually, as I understand it, the GOP corralled South Carolina voters not by sliming Buchanan, so much as getting religious leaders to talk up George HW Bush.

    The only ‘dirty trick’ I remember against Pat Buchanan was the Bush ad before the Michigan primary showing Mrs. Buchanan driving around in her Mercedes.

    Hardly a dirty trick at all, but I have heard it described as one by the Buchananoids out there.

  319. What, please, does that expression denote?

    M – I think it’s a mangled reference to “Chinese clusterfuck”

  320. Baked, thank you. I suppose “Chinese” for its assumed immediate local unintelligibility.

    An old Cold War quip had it that the pessimists were learning how to eat caviar with chopsticks.

  321. Okay, for all those wanting to know the history of Islamo-Fascism, please watch these 8 to 10 minute videos from YouTube (History channel), on Saddam Hussein and his links to Adolph Hitler. It’s called “Saddam and the Third Reich.”

    The videos explain in detail how Hitler’s rise in the 1930s inspired a young Syrian — Michelle Afluk — who later founded the Batth Party in Syria and helped a young Saddam to found the Party in Iraq, with help from Hitler’s Arab henchman The Grand Mufti.

    The Batthists were rabid Arab Nationalists who wanted to establish Pan-Arabia stretching from Morrocco to Persia. They were modeled after the German Nazi Party, and even used Nazi symbols. In short, Saddam Hussein was the moderd day ideological and political heir of Adolph Hitler.

    If you watch only 1 of these 8 minute vignettes, PLEASE make it Part 7 where you will learn of the direct link from the Nazis, through Saddam’s Hitler-worshiping Uncle to Saddam himself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6exIni6UtM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIbVLN4O8TI&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdyE_bvaPAQ&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vUEoFv7CEY&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dF0p-K7VL4&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pISnBTOP0Jg&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE79ajyr5u8&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJdYzl3jJBk&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaR1iCZoz_I&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spdm0rVetBE&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvFrSPfndhE&feature=related

  322. sorry, eric, not impressive. saddam was a classic middle eastern dictator-thug, of no particular ideology other than saddamism. i’m glad he’s dead, but a nazi connection? this sort of “he knew someone who was one associated with…” b.s. does your cause no good.

    the alliance between the nazis and the contemporary arab thugocracies is an interesting story, and does have some odd contemporary resonance, and i’m astonished how completely the history channel videos miss the point.

  323. once, not one. damn pinkies….

  324. What needs to be understood about Saddam Hussein and the Islamo-Fascists, is that were not at all Communists. This is a total misconception. In fact, Saddam fiercely opposed the Communists. He was temporarily aligned with them to overthrow King Fassel, but soon after, he and the Batthists overthrew the Communists, and murdered them all.

    This the source of the confusion from the Anti-War Libertarians. They make claims that “Saddam was a puppet of the CIA,” and “Saddam was aligned with the US.”

    No, he was not aligned with the US at all. He was just opposed to the Communists, and thus the Soviet Union.

    Like Hitler, he was Anti-Communist, but also fiercely Anti-British, and Anti-American.

    Which may explain why the USS Stark was bombed by Saddam in the middle 1980s, killing 37 US Sailors. But at the time we were still in the grasp of the Cold War. Thus, the incident was downplayed.

    And now today, it’s all but forgotten, cause the Left and the Liberal media do not wish to portray Saddam as evil and stridently Anti-America, else they appear to be on the same side as Bush and those who support the War in Iraq.

  325. Eric, you get your knowledge of history from the History Channel? No wonder you thought the French had low defense spending (ha!) in the early 1900s and 1930s.

  326. The History Channel is not known to have a “Right-wing bias.” In fact, if anything they’re kind of like CNN-lite.

    I’m amazed that this video was even made, and got through the liberal media censors.

    Are you asserting that the information in the video is biased or incorrect?

    Are you asserting that Saddam’s Uncle Tarela Turfa was not a Hitler worshipper, and that the Grand Muftia was not aligned with the Nazis?

  327. Cesar, I get some of my knowledge from YouTube and the History Channel.

    If you want a more complete accounting of Saddam Hussein’s Fascism (and his ties to Osama bin Laden and other Arab Nationalists), I sugget two excellent books:

    Richard Miniter’s “The Shadow War: How Bush is Winning the War on Terror” – 2005, by Regnery. Miniter is a self-described “libertarian.”

    And, “Saddam’s Secrets” by Saddam’s former Top Air Force General Georges Sayda. Caution: This book is not for the faint of heart. Sayda goes into gruesome detail on accounts of Saddam brutally murdering his enemies both within and without of Iraq. This book was a NY Times Bestseller.

  328. The History Channel is not known to have a “Right-wing bias.”

    I’ve never taken much note of the political leanings of the History Channel. they do, however, have a conspiracy theory bias.

    Are you asserting that the information in the video is biased or incorrect?

    Yes, I’m saying that making a direct connection between Nazism and Saddam Hussein is tenuous at best, disingenuous at worst. Certain Muslim national leaders may have had links with the Germans and certain times, but it was more anti-British than pro-German. They wanted independence from Britain and France. Had the shoe been on the other foot, they would have been anti-Nazi.

    Its worth pointing out, btw, that thousands of Pakistani and Indian Muslims died for the Allies.

  329. Eric, vidoes from the history channel aren’t exactly scholarly sources.

  330. Cesar, it’s Sunday after Thanksgiving. I presume like most of us libertarians you’re not a football fanatic. So, what else do you have to do today? It’s too chilli for yard work.

    Take 1 hour out of your day and watch this video from the History Channel. It will forever change your view on the entire Middle Eastern situation, and the War in Iraq.

    I dare you to watch the video.

  331. Take 1 hour out of your day and watch this video from the History Channel. It will forever change your view on the entire Middle Eastern situation, and the War in Iraq.

    I’ve seen it on tv about ten times. It didn’t really change my view on anything, anymore than seeing their shows on aliens or UFOs would.The History will make shows to milk everything they can out of Adolph Hitler in between Modern Marvels marathons.

    I presume like most of us libertarians you’re not a football fanatic.

    Football is OK but I’m much more in to basketball, college or pro. Just as long as its not soccer.

  332. Cesar, it is a well-known fact that Saddam’s Uncle Kairela Turfa was a Hitler worshipper and self-described Nazi. Even liberal historians say this. Everyone says this.

    Pick up any biography anywheres on Saddam Hussein written by a NeoCon, or a liberal on the left. All will give extensive coverage to Saddam’s Uncle who raised him, and how Saddam was taught to worship Hitler and the Nazis.

    You might be able to dispute some of the facts on the margins about the Grand Mufti and/or Michelle Afluk and the Batthists. But the information on Uncle Turfa is historically indisputable.

  333. Right, like I’m supposed to believe you watched the video before. Yeah, like I’m totally convinced there Cesar.

  334. So Cesar, if you’ve watched the video before, how about being specific. Which part do you not agree with?

    Is it the fact that Saddam’s Uncle Tarela Turfa was a Nazi, that you dispute?

    Maybe it’s the fact that the Grand Mufti was aligned with the Nazis, and was part of Hitler’s master plan to eliminate the Jews worldwide? (This one would be really hard to dispute, since there’s film footage of the two of them meeting.)

    Or, do you dispute that Michelle Afluk and the Batthists were indeed Fascists?

    Tell us, which part do you dispute? I mean you claim to have seen the video and all?

  335. Perhaps, more likely, you’re just uncomfortable with all the connections here.

    Ron Paul most recently has gotten into a great deal of hot water, for accepting contributions from American Nazis like Don Black, and the backing of David Duke and the Nazi Storm Trooper Fronts.

    Libertarians are on the opposite end of the political spectrum as Nazis. But all of a sudden, one wing of the libertarian movement – non-interentionists (isolationists), find themselves aligned with the Nazis as part of the Ron Paul coalition.

    And coincidentally, both camps, the American Nazis and the Anti-War Libertarians are opposed to the War in Iraq, and were opposed to the overthrow of Saddam Hussein – another Fascist.

    Hitting kind of close to home, ‘eh there Cesar?

  336. Is it the fact that Saddam’s Uncle Tarela Turfa was a Nazi, that you dispute?

    A non-aryan Nazi? Not likely. Theres no disputing the fact he was an Arab nationalist and a (secular) fascist, but theres a big difference between Nazism and Fascism.

    Or, do you dispute that Michelle Afluk and the Batthists were indeed Fascists?

    Ba’thism was a secular, Arab nationalist fascist political movement. So, yes, they were fascist. They were not, however, Nazis, or Muslim fundamentalists.

    Maybe it’s the fact that the Grand Mufti was aligned with the Nazis, and was part of Hitler’s master plan to eliminate the Jews worldwide? (This one would be really hard to dispute, since there’s film footage of the two of them meeting.)

    There were Muslim leaders that supported the Nazis because they believed (naievely) it would secure independence for their nations, which were at the time being held as imperial colonies.

    There are also, however, thousands of Muslims killed on the side of the allies in the fight against Hitler. To say that “all Muslims supported Nazis, because Islam is just like Nazisn” is stupid.

  337. Hitting kind of close to home, ‘eh there Cesar?

    I think the color of my skin would keep me from being a white supremacist, but nice try.

  338. If you guys would stop confusing party symbols and abbreviations for ideology then maybe you will stop confusing each other.

    National Socialism is found in the Fascists and in the Nazis, as well as in many secular middle-Eastern movements.

    Calling Nazis “facists” is odd to me as they never used the bundle of sticks as party identifier, at least not that I have seen over the years. They were National Socialists, just like the Italian Fascists, where the term is properly applied.


  339. National Socialism is found in the Fascists and in the Nazis, as well as in many secular middle-Eastern movements.

    Thats the key word, isn’t it? Secular, not Islamist. Maybe that coming from a conservative will convince him.

  340. Cesar,

    I would be more comfortable with the term IslamoNationalist, but it just does not seem as catchy.

    I believe the linckage is that the so-called Islamofascists are using Islam to promote their Authoritarian National Socialist agenda, partly through targeted attacks on civilians.

  341. OT: The Canadian hackers are on ESPN2 right now!

  342. There is no confusion here. Simply some evasiveness and blurying of the issue by Cesar, because he’s been cornered by cold hard facts:

    Fact:

    The Grand Mufti was a bonafide Hitlerian Nazi, who was an Honorary SS Captain in Hitler’s Army.

    Fact:

    Saddam Hussein worshipped and aligned himself with the Grand Mufti.

    Fact:

    Saddam’s Uncle was one of the original Nazis in Iraq. He was aligned with the burgeoning Batthist Party headed by Michelle Afluk of Syria.

    Fact:

    Saddam was truly “his Uncle’s son.” He did everyting his Uncle told him to do. He even murdered for his Uncle.

    Fact:

    Saddam worshipped Hitler as a boy in his Uncle’s home.

    Fact:

    Saddam had a master plan of ruling the entire Muslim world from Morocco to Tehran, and eliminating the Jews.

    Fact:

    Anti-War Libertarians have aligned themselves with Modern Day Nazis in the Ron Paul coalition to oppose those who support the War in Iraq (Against Saddam and the Fascist Batthists).

    Fact:

    Just this week it was revealed that Don Black, America’s Number One most outspoken Nazi has given a $500.00 contribution to Ron Paul’s campaign for President.

    Fact:

    Both David Duke and the Nazi Storm Trooper Front are fiercely supporting Paul.

    Fact:

    Anyone who critizes Ron Paul within the libertarian or conservative movements is savagely castigated as a “NeoCon” (modern nomenclature for Jew or Jew Supporter.)

    Starting to see the connections here??

  343. Starting to see the connections here??

    in fact, no.

    my father idolized jfk and fdr. guess that makes me a crypto-democrat.

  344. btw, michel aflaq would have been amused at your attempts at gender reassignment. if you’re going to troll, at least learn to get the names right, eh?

  345. Edna, Dondero and other neocons (and no, thats not a synonym for “jew”) compare every single incident to World War II. Therefore, they’d love to make a connection between Nazis and Islamists that doesn’t exist so they can frame the current conflict as some kind of continuation of World War II.

    This is, of course, coming from the same guy who thought France had low defense spending in the decades before World War I and World War II, when in reality they had one of the largest armies in the world

  346. Cesar | November 23, 2007, 7:43pm | #

    I generally believe in free speech 99% of the time, but when a person proves himself to be little more than an obnoxious cutter/paster (namely, “edward), I believe he deserves the ban hammer. Do I have anyone who supports my position in regards to “edward”?

    This is NOT a free-speech issue. reason magazine and reasononline are not state entities. Free speech issues are only raised when the state or one of its agents suppresses speech.

  347. This is NOT a free-speech issue. reason magazine and reasononline are not state entities. Free speech issues are only raised when the state or one of its agents suppresses speech.

    Yes yes, I know. Its just my personal opinion that if I ever ran a blog I’d let anyone say anything as long as its not spam. And Edward has entered the realm of political spam. Reason online of course, can do whatever it wants.

  348. well, i certainly believe that much of the current conflict can be justified without resorting to this sort of hysterical insult-to-the-intelligence stuff from e.d., so (as you well know) it’s not like i’m coming at this from the same viewpoint as you or cesar or iih. which ought to embarrass e.d., but almost certainly won’t.

    i’d almost suspect that he’s a plant from saudi arabia whose job it is to discredit the legitimate arguments for middle eastern interventionism.

  349. Cesar,

    The french ‘defense’ spending pre-WWII was blaintantly inadiquate, combined with one of the worst implimentations of hardware in history. It would have been perfectly adiquate if they had bothered to enforce the arms limitations imposed on Germany, but they turned their backs on that responsibility. Not unlike when they dropped out of no-fly-zone enforcement over Iraq.

    Also, not every comparison with WWII, or the Cival War for that matter, is incorrect. Like comparisons of how some outlets, like reason invoke the “quagmire” term that could easily be substituted if they were reporting on the campaign in North Africa, Italy or at Normandy.

  350. The french ‘defense’ spending pre-WWII was blaintantly inadiquate, combined with one of the worst implimentations of hardware in history.

    They spent massive amounts of money on useless, ineffective projects. That was my point in my previous argument with Dondero. He basically said defense spending will solve everything. I said, no, having stealth bombers doesn’t stop hijackers. Its about as effective as the Maginot Line was against Blitzkrieg.

    Also, not every comparison with WWII, or the Cival War for that matter, is incorrect. Like comparisons of how some outlets, like reason invoke the “quagmire” term that could easily be substituted if they were reporting on the campaign in North Africa, Italy or at Normandy.

    World War II was a war with clearly defined objectives against a foreign enemy. The Iraq War is not. We don’t have a clear, concrete objective. Thats why it only took four years to finish off the German war machine, but its taking years on end to finish up Iraq.

  351. To J sub D at 11:59 am yesterday (or anyone else who can edify):
    a complete Chinese fuck story
    What, please, does that expression denote? I googled it to no avail.

    I picked up that phrase approx 30 years ago while in that hotbed of vulgarity, the U.S. Navy. It is a term for some that is not only fucked up, but so totally fucked up that you can no longer understand or comprehend it. A fairly good example would be our immigration policy or lack thereof. A complete disaster, not working, not rational, with inexplicable origins. IOW a Chinese fuck story.

  352. Heres my preferred solution, Guy. If terrorists attack us with the knowledge or active support of a state, we overthrow the government and kill anyone who was even remotely involved. Then we leave.

    “Mission Accomplished, Don’t Make Us Come Back”.

    That makes more sense to me then sitting around nation building while our troops get shot at.

  353. To whoever rattled Dondi’s cage, STOP DOING THAT!

    Thank you for your cooperation.

  354. That is enough!!! If I hear Islamofascist one more time somebody is staying late after school. For those who weren’t paying attention last semester –

    Theocracy
    Pronunciation: \th?-??-kr?-s?\
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural the?oc?ra?cies
    Etymology: Greek theokratia, from the- + -kratia -cracy
    Date: 1622
    1 : government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided
    2 : a state governed by a theocracy

    The word’s been around a long time. It is a more accurate, (and correct), word that describes what is desired by Al Queda, Hamas, Hizbollah, Pat Robertson, and has been achieved by the mullahs of Iran. Please, no more newly fabricated, ill defined words.

  355. The word’s been around a long time. It is a more accurate, (and correct), word that describes what is desired by Al Queda, Hamas, Hizbollah, Pat Robertson, and has been achieved by the mullahs of Iran. Please, no more newly fabricated, ill defined words.

    See, thats the real stumbling block. The supporters of the Endless War can’t use that word for their enemies, because it perfectly describes many of their own supporters.

  356. “Mission Accomplished, Don’t Make Us Come Back”.

    Cesar, I couldn’t agree more. “You like electricity, standing bridges, warehouses, railyards? Don’t fuck with us or you won’t have them any more.”

    Qadaffi (sp?) started behaving much better after Reagan had his home destroyed, didn’t he?

  357. They spent massive amounts of money on useless, ineffective projects. That was my point in my previous argument with Dondero. He basically said defense spending will solve everything. I said, no, having stealth bombers doesn’t stop hijackers. Its about as effective as the Maginot Line was against Blitzkrieg.

    Your earlier post on this thread was not quite that clear, but we do agree on that point.

    Also, the Maginot Line was not supposed to be just a bunch of turreted guns and infantry tunnels. The plan was to have a substantial, effective, Armor force behind it. That portion was never purchased. In the end, the civil engineers had built some expensive targets for the German mechanical engineers to destroy.

  358. Qadaffi (sp?) started behaving much better after Reagan had his home destroyed, didn’t he?

    Yes, an example of effective foreign policy. His actions did not seem to waiver a bit when Clinton bombed the Midol plant, but then he straightened up a whole lot more by some event during the Bush administration.

    I ‘wonder’ what that one was . . .

  359. The supporters of the Endless War can’t use [theocracy] for their enemies, because it perfectly describes many of their own supporters.

    I have to admit, I used “Islamofascist” a few times, before realizing that was its purpose.

  360. Eric Dondero,

    I saw that special when it first came out. There’s no question, the Ba’ath were a fascist party. But the thing is, they weren’t Islamofascist, they were Arab Fascist. It was the Arab Nation, not political Islam, that was at the heart of Baathist ideology.

    We’ve got Arab fascists. And we’ve got political Islam. But no Islamo-fascism. The fascists aren’t pushing an Islamist ideology, and the Islamists aren’t fascists.

  361. For example, Eric, you might have noticed that Saddam Hussein made a habit of jailing and killing Islamists, just like fellow Arab fascist, Bashir Assad.

    Remember Sadat? Arab nationalist – some would argue fascist – that was assassinated by Islamists.

    Or, you can look at the “Anbar miracle,” where Baathist supporters who were nationalist (tribalist, actually) ended up at war with the jihadists in their midsts.

    The Arab fascists and the Islamists (I prefer jihadists) are two distinct, mutually hostile political movements that spend most of their time at war. Pretty much the only time you see them working together is when they are fighting some outside force. Hint, hint.

  362. Hamas vs. Fatah would be another example.

  363. Cesar, I get some of my knowledge from YouTube and the History Channel.

    man this explains a whole fucking lot.

  364. It’s not that bad a piece; the influence of the Nazis on anti-British Arab nationalists can’t be dismissed out of hand; and Saddam did deliberately set out to create a totalitarian police state. The founder of the Ba’ath Party in Iraq was a Nazi admirer.

    It’s not a conspiracy-theory documentary, even it is just a work of popular history.

  365. history is good.

    history channel? less so.

  366. history is good.

    history channel? less so.

    dhex, remember that 90% of everything is crap. That goes for cable TV offerings as well. The notable exception is The Oxygen Channel, which weighs in at 99.5% crap.

  367. edna,

    saddam was a classic middle eastern dictator-thug, of no particular ideology other than saddamism.

    Actually, the video Dondero is flogging gets into that. Saddam was basically a street thug that the party ideologues used for dirty work, and ended up killing his way to the top after the ideologues managed to put themselves into power.

  368. I’m not even sure what Dondero was trying to say. That we invaded Iraq because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem endorsed the Nazis, and Saddam’s Unlce liked Hitler? Is that the earth-shattering revelation I’m supposed to have? You’d think its 2003 or something.

  369. Even if Saddam was a Nazi, or fascist, or whatever, there remains the fact that he had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11…so is Dondero saying that Islamofascists weren’t responsible for 9/11?

  370. crimethink,

    Why must this imagined 9/11 link keep getting brough up by you folks who do not believe that we should be involved in Iraq?

    The Bush administration never made that link, never even hinted at one. Why is it an issue for you people?

  371. I’m not even sure what Dondero was trying to say.

    Cesar –
    I didn’t even read his posts, so of course I’m not sure what he was trying to say, either. It appears one of us was wasting their time.
    Hmmm. 😉

  372. The Bush administration never made that link, never even hinted at one. Why is it an issue for you people?

    Guy Montag –
    President Bush in his State of the Union address, January 2003.

    Before 11 September 2001, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents and lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons, and other plans – this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take just one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known.

    You can also go here and here for more info.

    Yet you post “The Bush administration never made that link, never even hinted at one. Why is it an issue for you people?

  373. Hmmm, I remember reading that Saddam Hussein’s library was full of books about stalin, and he consciously modeled many aspects of his regime based on lessons he gleaned from Stalin’s experiences.

    If I wanted to pigeonhole Stalin into the cluster of super-evil dictators, I would call him primarily a Stalinist.

    What a dumb thing to argue about, though.

  374. J sub D,

    Nicely done.

    My favote is from Flight Suit Day:

    The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We’ve removed an ally of al Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because the regime is no more. (Applause.)

    Nope. Never even hinted.

  375. Saddam’s Stalin fetish is just more evidence of his estrangement from Ba’athist ideology.

    The Ba’athists were passionately anti-Communist. Saddam got his start fighting and killing Iraqi communists, and had to go into exile after a failed attempt to assassinate the Iraqi military dictator, after the Ba’athists decided he was too close to the communists.

  376. Yea, J s D? So you make a quote with no link to 9/11 made by anybody and present that as evidence of what?

    There certainly were AQ links, but 9/11 was not one of them. Why you must insist in circular speech? Just get to the point.

    If you believe that no military action is valid unless there is a 9/11 link for the rest of our days, just say so. If you believe that Iraq should have never been liberated because they had nothing to do with 9/11, please say that too, although it would be included in the previous statement.

  377. Guy, The Bush administration never made that link, never even hinted at one. Why is it an issue for you people? (J sub D’s emphasis)

    That is your post, right? Or is somebody (Odin knows why) impersonating you? If you can’t get that hint from Bush’s SOU address, you likely missed out on a lot of sex.

  378. Cesar,

    My guess was that you understood the distinction before you wrote what you wrote. But it’s a pet peeve of mine that I like to call people out on. We need to be more judicious with our use of the phrase “free speech.” Too many people already think companies and other non-state entities are capable of censorship that violates the First Amendment. We need to work on a education campaign that starts with being less sloppy when we speak and write about free speech issues.

  379. Guy,

    Dondero is attempting to link “islamofascists” to actual fascists via Saddam; but without a link between Saddam and 9/11, that doesn’t prove anything…unless you think that it wasn’t Islamofascists that attacked us on 9/11. That’s why I’m bringing it up.

  380. Want links between Saddam and 9/11?

    Richard Miniter in his book “Shadow War: How Bush is Winning the War on Terror” has an extenisive appendix in the back which documents over 40 instances of direct links between Al Qaeda and Saddam. Most are not well-known and publicized, but a few are, like Saddam harboring two Terrorist Training camps in Iraq before 9/11 – Salman Pac and Answar Al-Islam.

    Both camps were far more insidious and much more strongly connnected directly to Bin Laden than the liberal media reported.

    Answar Al-Islam was pretty much “Al Qaeda in Iraq” pre-9/11. The media during the invasion in 2003 brushed it off, cause they said “it was located in Kurdish controlled Iraq, and couldn’t have been linked to Saddam.”

    Only half true. Yes, they got the geography right. It was located in Northeastern Iraq. However, it was in a small region, completely controlled by Saddam NOT BY THE KURDS!!

    Salman Pac, 20 miles south of Baghdad hosted Al Qaeda fighters all throughout 1999.

  381. Guy-where is the proof about these links of Al Q and Saddam? I thought the 9/11 Committee found nothing of note and doesn’t even Bush when pressed now say that there was no link of note? I mean, if there were solid evidence they would certainly be trumpeting it…

    This Dondero guy is pretty dense. I’m not voting for Ron Paul, but the “fact” that some Nazi’s support him means nothing, and the allegation that anti-war libertarians must be Nazi’s because they opposed action against the “Nazi” Iraqi’s is hilarious. Interestingly it strikes me that the Right opposed war with the ACTUAL Nazi’s until Pearl Harbor, so in Dondero’s world that must make the Right Nazis.

  382. Bottom line:

    Is it just a coincidence that NeoNazis are flocking to the non-interventionist/Anti-Israel/Defacto Pro-Radical Muslim Presidential campaign of Ron Paul?

    You all can deflect, whine, complain, and bring up side issues til you’re blue in the fact. In the end you cannot escape the fact that:

    Saddam Hussein was a Nazi-admiring Fascist.

    Ron Paul opposes the War on Islamo-Fascism/War in Iraq.

    NeoNazis are flooding into Ron Paul’s Presidential Campaign, and beefing up his Campaign Coffers with $$$ contributions.

  383. Mr. Nice Guy, not necessarily in Bush’s interest to expose links between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Bush has been beaten down so severely by the Liberal media, that it’s quite understandable that he’d stay away from such things with a 10 foot pole. (Though, you might remember PA Senator Rick Santorum and a couple Congressmen held a press conference on this very subject two years ago, and got some press on it for a couple days, immediately following the discovery of those 500 missiles laden with Sarin in the Iraqi desert.)

  384. MNG, I find it easier (and more productive) to use the Page Down key than to bother to read Dondi’s rants. Try it, you’ll thank me.

  385. I thought Saddam was dead, no? Why are we talking about him?

    But…

    Certain Muslim national leaders may have had links with the Germans and certain times, but it was more anti-British than pro-German. They wanted independence from Britain and France. Had the shoe been on the other foot, they would have been anti-Nazi.

    Its worth pointing out, btw, that thousands of Pakistani and Indian Muslims died for the Allies.

    100% agreed. That some Muslim (and in fact non-Muslim) leaders saw in Hitler a common perceived enemy (the British, the French, the Zionist movement [not to be confused with Jewish]) does not mean that ALL Muslims, past and present, support Hitler. In fact, I think that the Mifti of Jerusalem was stupid in his move towards Hitler to say the least.

  386. How in the world is Ron Paul the “defacto Pro-radical Muslim Presidential Candidate”? Because he opposes intervention in the affairs of the Middle East? That’s a leap the Hulk would be proud of. There are lots of non-Nazi reasons to oppose intervention, even intervention to eliminate Nazi admirerers…

    There are all kinds of reasons I imagine neo-Nazis might prefer RP. They tend to be heavily into firearms and RP takes a strong stance in favor of gun rights. They tend to not like government safety net programs and RP would be in favor of pulling the plug on many federal ones. But one can hold these positions without being a Nazi (I imagine Dondero himself holds these positions). So yeah, its a coincidence.

  387. dondero,

    so your logic is that if you don’t go to war with a certain group/state you are defacto pro- that certain group/state and their idealogy. Militarism and perpetual war here we come!!

  388. Yeah, as I remember it Santorum came up the fool at that since these WMD’s were like decades old artillery shells if I remember. I certainly don’t think Bush would be fearful to say anything because of his fear of the “Liberal media” as he regularly says and does things that could be reported to make him out to be a fool. He doesn’t seem to mind saying and doing such things. He gets taken to the woodshed all the time for “hinting” at links between Al Q. and Iraq so if he had something credible to back that up he would be singing it from opera houses. The fact he’s so mum should be quite telling to you…

  389. “MNG, I find it easier (and more productive) to use the Page Down key than to bother to read Dondi’s rants. Try it, you’ll thank me.”

    I read it as comedy; something roughly akin to a less sophisticated Stephen Colbert without the knowing, self-referential angle.

    Like this: “…not necessarily in Bush’s interest to expose links between Saddam and Al Qaeda.”

    See, that’s comedy gold!

  390. You know J sub D, that’s twice on this thread I’ve agreed with you :). Page down it is.

  391. No Javier, not at all.

    I think there are many sincere non-interventionists, both liberals and libertarians.

    You know how to tell a sincere non-interventionist from an insincere one? Ask them if they also protested against Clinton’s invasion of Bosnia.

    I applaud sincere non-interventionists. In fact, I would offer them a tax check-off on their returns if they do not wish their tax dollars going to support the War in Afghnistan or Iraq.

    What I am saying is that it’s awfully odd that Ron Paul has a history of attending meetings of fringe groups, and of making comments that appear to be aligned with those groups, and to receive support from those groups, AND at the same time, taking the same exact position as those groups on foreign policy matters.

  392. Santorum was no fool at all. In fact, he was proven 100% correct. Yeah, maybe the Huffington Post and Daily Kos dissed him, but he was up for reelection. Of course, they would attack him on just about anything.

    Two American GIs were severely wounded by those supposedly “old and outdated missiles” laden with sarin and mustard gas.

    The bottom line is that the Left was screaming “No WMD, No WMD, Where’s the WMD Bush.”

    Well, they found them – 500 misiles in fact. It was a 1 day story on CNN. Even the liberal media admitted that yes, they were WMD. Then the story disappeared from the media. They were wholly embarrassed so they dropped it like a led balloon.

  393. No Javier, but there is something to Pan-Arabia. These are not nation states as we view them as. There is a cohesion in the Arab world. And to isolate them and say, “Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11” does not make much sense.

  394. I think there are many sincere non-interventionists, both liberals and libertarians.

    What about Muslim non-interventionists?

    No Javier, but there is something to Pan-Arabia. These are not nation states as we view them as. There is a cohesion in the Arab world. And to isolate them and say, “Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11” does not make much sense.

    OMG!

    Islamists viewed Pan-Arabism as their foremost enemy. Nasser put 100s of theousands of the Islamists in prison because he viewed them as the enemies of Pan-Arabism.

  395. Lets ALL change the subject to Rudy and put a friend of ours on the defensive for a little.

    Has anyone seen the IAFD-produced, NYFD firefighters featured YouTube (Eric, I know you only get your sources from YouTube) video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0E0wfShJ58

  396. ihh, (alias pussy boy cause you’re too scared to post your real name here), I can take criticisms of Rudy just fine. In fact, I engage in it myself from time to time. Like a few weeks ago, a waitress at a diner offered him a plate of food in front of the TV cameras. Rudy, like an idiot, turned the women down. He pushed the food away. One of the truly most idiotic moments by a candidate in Presidential history. Almost as bad as John Kerry asking for Grey Poupon with his Philly Cheesesteak.

  397. well, i certainly believe that much of the current conflict can be justified without resorting to this sort of hysterical insult-to-the-intelligence stuff from e.d., so (as you well know) it’s not like i’m coming at this from the same viewpoint as you or cesar or iih. which ought to embarrass e.d., but almost certainly won’t.

    You know what edna, I really agree with you. The difference between you, Cesar, and I, and Eric is that we are reasonable people. In fact, if it were left to the two of us (you and I), we can probably solve the Middle East issue together. We are reasonable people.

    Eric, not that I am saying that you are unreasonable. I really believe that you are a very smart man (and remember we agreed to be friends–Did you get my message regarding calling me Ali?), but you are just talking to the wrong croud. We too are smart, you know.

  398. Eric, it is iih not ihh. Is this sort of the same thing as calling it the Democrat Party and not the Democratic Party? Kind of like an insult? Guess, what I would not care much about it.

    You asked for my name, and I told you to call me Ali. That is truly my name (albeit my Grandfather’s… no, actually, my great grandfather’s… but what’s in a name?)

  399. Big news today from NH: Rudy draws “dozens” of supporters in Manchester. Eric, can you verify?

  400. Don’t know. But I can verify this:

    Rudy Giuliani wins endorsement yesterday of Manchester, NH Mayor Frank Guinta, who is known as a strong advocate of property tax cuts, and school choice.

  401. Shit, Ali, I truly forgot. Not BSing you here. I honestly did forget.

    At this moment, I’m writing it on my white board, right next to my computer in my study room, in big letters: Call ihh, Ali! And though we oppose each other, we did agree to be friendly!!

  402. But, what’s up with “ihh”?

  403. Eric- Thanks re Manchester.

  404. (alias pussy boy cause you’re too scared to post your real name here)

    OK, Eric Rittberg.

  405. Eric, also curious about the NYFD thing. What do you think?

  406. Apparently Dondero is afraid to answer questions from someone he calls a pussy boy.

  407. Santorum was no fool at all. In fact, he was proven 100% correct.

    Dondi, do you mean this Santorum?

    Savage Love readers, by a wide margin, want Sen. Rick Santorum’s name to stand for… THAT FROTHY MIXTURE OF LUBE AND FECAL MATTER THAT IS SOMETIMES THE BYPRODUCT OF ANAL SEX!

  408. Sorry about my previous post, folks. But every time I hear or read the name Santorum, that’s what comes to mind. Amazingly enough, that definition comes up first if you google santorum. He’s sure made a lot of friends.

  409. J sub D:

    I thought that might be because of the Lions’ loss today, and it only came at the cost of Santorum!

  410. iih, The Lions never lose the Sunday after Thanksgiving. They lose on Thanksgiving day and have a long weekend. It’s been that way for decades.

  411. crimethink | November 25, 2007, 6:25pm | #

    (alias pussy boy cause you’re too scared to post your real name here)

    OK, Eric Rittberg.

    Ka-BOOM!!!

  412. iih, The Lions never lose the Sunday after Thanksgiving. They lose on Thanksgiving day and have a long weekend. It’s been that way for decades.

    HA! Well, lets make that the Pistons then, unless it was really Santorum who brought onto himself.

  413. insert “it” where you see fit.

  414. Real name – Eric Dondero Rittberg. Use Rittberg if you like. No problem. Dondero = biological parents, Rittberg = adoptive parents.

  415. Don’t know much if anything at all about the NYFD thing. Is that related to Kerik? If so, I liked Kerik and thought he got a definite bumb deal. I was pissed at Bush when he canned him. Bush can be such a pussy sometimes, not wanting to fight back against the liberal media on Scooter Libby, Kerik, et.al.

    I want more of the “Bring it on” Bush.

  416. I go away for Turkey Day and when I come back… nothing has changed.

    Dondero is still making moot points (Saddam was a fascist) and twisting history to promote an indefensible position. Referring to Rudy is one level of absurd but Santorum?!?! What was found was around 500 artillery shells with degraded mustard gas and sarin, dating from the Iran-Iraq War.

    In a Faux News article

    Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.

    “This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991,” the official said, adding the munitions “are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war.”

    The Washington Post couldn’t find anyone in DC who took it seriously either.

    I like Edward better. He doesn’t pretend to be serious.

    And, to Guy Montag…

    Does Cheney count as the “Bush Administration”? Does claiming one of the hijackers met with Iraqi intelligence 5 months before the attacks count as linking Iraq to 9/11? If so, then here.

  417. Eric- I meant the video. Have you seen it? What is your first reaction to it? Just curious.

  418. Franklin digged up the facts on Santorum’s Folly. But interesting all one needed to see Dondero’s point was lacking in something can be found in his very own quote:

    “Two American GIs were severely wounded by those supposedly “old and outdated missiles” laden with sarin and mustard gas.

    The bottom line is that the Left was screaming “No WMD, No WMD, Where’s the WMD Bush.””

    The WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION injured two soldiers. I always regret the injury of an American soldier, but that ain’t much of a WMD…

  419. J sub D:

    I never knew that we were paid commenters!?! See last comment.

  420. btw, michel aflaq would have been amused at your attempts at gender reassignment.

    I never did trust that duck; my suspicions are confirmed now that I see it’s a transgendered nazi.

  421. In defense of the History Channel, it, like Wikipedia, is great for filling your knowledge tanks from MT to about 50-60%. But, to top off, you actually have to read a few different things.

  422. Is this guy for real?

    You know how to tell a sincere non-interventionist from an insincere one? Ask them if they also protested against Clinton’s invasion of Bosnia.

    Paul voted against the war resolution on Yugoslavia. Furthermore, he was part of dozen or so congressman who filed a suit that said Clinton overstepped his authority vis a vis the War powers act.

    Consistent enough for ya?

    (Disclaimer: yes, the majority of all congressional actions during the period of the Kosovo campaign were partisan. But, we’re talking about people who took the contra postion both times.)

  423. If so, I liked Kerik and thought he got a definite bumb deal.

    why?

    that’s just plain fucking baffling. i can understand some kind of outsider nostalgia for bratton, to be sure, but bernie?

  424. The comical thing about Kerik was that when he was made Interior Minister of the Iraqi Occupational Govt, instead of working on building the national police, he spent hi time

    Driving around Baghdad kicking in doors with a bunch of South African mercenaries.

    Here’s a guy who has done infinitely more harm to the U.S. attempt to create a friendly government in Baghdad than a thousand Justin Raimodos, and Eric likes him?

    Just one more example of Eric Dondero’s analytical abilities in action I guess.

  425. Nazis eat apple pie

    they even enjoy it

    we should ban apple pie

  426. haiku fairly shouts:
    libertarianism means
    free markets, not verse

  427. I thought Saddam was dead, no? Why are we talking about him?

    more importantly, now that he’s dead (and unlike many here, i think he needed killing), why are we still there?

  428. We’re not so much “still there.” Headlines all over the Newsblogs like Drudge this morning: “5,000 American Troops coming home from Iraq.”

    Now with Bush’s drawdown, the question is, how will you and other Americans welcome home our brave Soliders, Sailors and Marines?

    Will you continue to deny that they won the War, and are returning home as victors with your nasty-ass cynicism and America-bashing, or will you greet them at airports around America with placards in big bold red letters: “Thank You American Military – Mission Accomplished.”

    I and others will be watching to see which way you go.

  429. Franklin says the missiles they found were “degraded WMD”. That may be so. But the fact remains THEY WERE WMD!!!

    I don’t remember seeing any protestors out in San Francisco with signs that read: “Bush, Where’s the Degraded WMD”. I don’t remember headline stories on LewRockwell.com: “Bush lied on degraded WMD – None have been found.”

    Add the adjective if you like. You can even throw in “old” or “Iraq/Iran era.” Bottom line: THEY WERE WMD AND THEY WERE FULLY CAPABLE OF KILLING PEOPLE.

  430. I think it’s pretty clear that the only person on the thread who lets his political opinions dictate how he views American service personnel is you, Eric.

  431. “Thank You American Military”

    I have nothing against our troops. They are only doing their job. But tell me, Eric, what did they do for us that we should be thankful for? Are they there for us or there for fulfilling the nation building goals of the neoconservatives? Our involvement won’t help American citizens, it will harm us in promoting more terrorist acts against us.

  432. I and others will be watching to see which way you go.

    you can be arrested for that.

  433. I never knew that we were paid commenters!?!
    iih, Where the hell is my check? Cheap ass Ron Paul campaign.

  434. You know Rattlesnake Jake, I answer a lot of stupid quetions here, but your latest is so damned offensive, I’m not even going to bother.

    If you have to ask a question like that, you don’t deserve to be an American.

    Leave the US, and don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out you scum.

  435. But tell me, Eric, what did they do for us that we should be thankful for?

    I’m certainly not Eric, and indeed I have a punch in the nose available for anyone who thinks I am, but we should be thankful that they carried out the orders of their superiors, even when it meant putting their life and health on the line. That’s what a soldier is expected to do.

    If we think the orders they were given were foolish and counterproductive, ire should be directed towards the people who originated those orders, not those who had to carry them out.

  436. Well said crimethink. But many of your comrades in the Anti-War wing of the Libertarian movement actually do blame the Troops as we just witnessed here. That’s a black eye for your wing of the libertarian movement that you’ll have to deal with, and you can rest assured that we Pro-Defense Libertarians will not let you forget the Military bashers in your crowd.

  437. Rattlesnake Jake @ 3:42pm,

    Good points. And our government should never have attacked Iraq in the first place. The duplicity used by neocons, both in and out of the administration, to gain the consent of the American people for starting and continuing the attack on Iraq was and is shameful. And the consequences have been tragic. And now the same group of Israeli government firsters wants to waste American lives and money attacking Iran.

  438. Eric Dondero:

    If you have to ask a question like that, you don’t deserve to be an American.

    What a frightening sentiment! That’s an expression of fasism, not libertarianism. It sounds like you know as little about what it means to be an American as you do about defending America.

    and you can rest assured that we Pro-Defense Libertarians will not let you forget the Military bashers in your crowd.

    Eric, please don’t call yourself a “Pro-Defense Libertarian”. The evidence is that the intervention that you support endangers rather than defends us. Also, I’m beginning to wonder if you should call yourself a libertarian. I mean, the military is part of the government. It’s libertarians who should lead the bashing of certain folks in our military when bashing is called for.

    Ron Paul is a Pro-Defense Libertarian, not you.

  439. crimethink:

    I’m certainly not Eric, and indeed I have a punch in the nose available for anyone who thinks I am.

    crimethink, Don’t worry. I’ve read your comments for years and I think that most everyone here who has will agree; our noses are safe.

  440. Eric Dondero:

    Leave the US, and don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out you scum.

    Charming. You sound like you’re trying out to be a FOX news foreign policy analyst.

    Now Eric, if you have integrity, you’ll apologize to Rattlesnake Jake forthwith.

  441. He insulted the United States Military. If you have any integrity Rick, you’re denounce him and distance yourself from his views.

    Fox? Give me a break. They’ve become so squishy as or late. Right wing my ass. They’re like so middle of the road, that they regularly get squashed like an armadillo on the yellow line.

  442. “He insulted the United States Military. If you have any integrity Rick, you’re denounce him and distance yourself from his views.”

    Eric, if you had read my post closely, you would see I wasn’t criticizing our troops, I was criticising those who gave the orders. My point was that our involvement in Iraq is not an action that we should be thankful. It has not contributed anything for us, but has probably done us more harm by promoting more acts of terrorism down the road for us. As I pointed out, our troops are only following orders. Many of them are also opposed to our involvement in Iraq. That’s why Ron Paul is receiving more contributions from them than any of the other Republicans. They want us to return to our Constitutional principles of defending our country and not meddling in the business of other people overseas. We should only go after the ones who were responsible for 9/11 and not use 9/11 as an excuse for nation building. So get your stupid head out of your ass and pay closer attention to my posts.

  443. Eric,

    Rattlesnake Jake asked, Are they there for us or there for fulfilling the nation building goals of the neoconservatives?

    Nicly put. And then answered his question:

    Our involvement won’t help American citizens, it will harm us in promoting more terrorist acts against us.

    The evidence says he’s speaking the true. And note that he also said that, I have nothing against our troops. They are only doing their job.

    I know what you’re saying about Fox, Eric. And part of that is due to their myopic focus on the neocon foreign agenda at the expense of real conservative issues.

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