Rudy Giuliani

We Were So Much Younger Then, We're Crueler Than That Now

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I used to think I was an expert on 1920s Mississippi Supreme Court decisions, but Is That Legal? blogger Shertaugh takes the crown:

In a case called Fisher v. State, 110 So. 361, 362 (Miss. 1926), Mississippi's highest court ordered the retrial of a convicted murderer because his confession was secured by a local sheriff's use of the water cure.

Here's the court:

The state offered . . . testimony of confessions made by the appellant, Fisher. . . [who], after the state had rested, introduced the sheriff, who testified that, he was sent for one night to come and receive a confession of the appellant in the jail; that he went there for that purpose; that when he reached the jail he found a number of parties in the jail; that they had the appellant down upon the floor, tied, and were administering the water cure, a specie of torture well known to the bench and bar of the country.

But Rudy Giuliani disagrees!

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  1. So, torture in Mississippi, torture in Cambodia, torture in WWII Japan, not torture in Gitmo

    phenomenal

  2. a specie of torture well known to the bench and bar of the country

    So this would make Guiliani’s endorsement just a continuation of policy, then? I thought they had graduated to phone books + sledghammers.

  3. Oh to be young and naive like the Supreme Court once was.

    Dear Supreme Court circa 1926,

    It’s not torture when we do it.
    9/11 Changed Everything.

    Love
    The US Government.

  4. So we are now officially more barbaric that 1920s-era Mississippi. Great.

  5. Weigel,

    Given that lynching was still common at the time throughout much of the U.S., and that the response to end a lynching was often devastating (e.g., the Tulsa, Ok. race riot), I don’t think that we are “crueler … now.”

  6. was that an eric burden reference?

  7. To be fair, the CIA has ceased the second-hand smoke torture.

  8. Yea, the old “water cure” is the same as water boarding fiction.

    Please cue the unconstitutional war comments now.

  9. Guy Montag,

    FWIW, waterboarding appears to have a problematic and contested legal standing in the U.S. Furthermore, even if they are not exactly the same, if they are similar enough then one can draw inferences about that.

  10. And we have not been using it for 4 years. So why are you people still crying about it as if you just experienced it, unwillingly, before today’s breakfast?

  11. The neocons must be so proud of themselves.
    I’m ashamed. I wouldn’t vote for Rudy if the Dems nominated Nader.

  12. “””And we have not been using it for 4 years.”””

    How do you know? The government told you so?

  13. Next complaint about the military: Unconstitutional quartering of troops in private homes during times of peace before the Revolution!

  14. How do you know? The government told you so?

    Actually, that is how we both found out they were doing it to begin with. If it is just a big lie then what are you crying about?

  15. I don’t know Guy, because it’s on the record that we waterboarded KSM and his confessions were part of the evidence used to draw us into the Iraq war?

    Oh, and it’s torture

  16. Guy Montag,

    And we have not been using it for 4 years.

    You really don’t know if that is the case or not, do you?

  17. And we have not been using it for 4 years.

    I, for one, don’t believe that.

  18. The other point is, I think it’s miles apart using coercive measures to secure a confession in criminal matters versus using coercive measures on enemy combatants. If you need to read the Miranda to every capture on the battlefield I think I’d prefer to take no prisoners at all.

  19. And we have not been using it for 4 years.

    You’re a very trusting soul, Guy.

    Sources and methods.

  20. Morgan,

    If you need to read the Miranda to every capture on the battlefield I think I’d prefer to take no prisoners at all.

    Who is exactly asking for that again?

  21. Go on, Guy, explain in gory detail the process used in the “water cure,” and how it’s different from waterboarding, so we can tell exactly how harmless and non-tortuous it is.

  22. They didn’t just rule that the confession was obtained illegally, Morgan.

    They ruled that the confession was obtained illegally THROUGH TORTURE.

  23. Morgan,

    In other words, there is a significant difference between stating “let’s not torture prisoners of war*” and “let’s give prisoners of war Miranda rights.”

    *I realize that there is much debate over who these folks are, but I’ll call them POWs for the time being in light of how many of these folks who clearly did not need to be in our custody.

  24. J sub D | November 16, 2007, 3:37pm | #

    The neocons must be so proud of themselves.
    I’m ashamed. I wouldn’t vote for Rudy if the Dems nominated Nader.

    If the Dems nominated Nader, I’d be trying to get false US documentation to vote for anyone else, even a third term for GWB.

  25. Jack,
    I don’t know Guy, because it’s on the record that we waterboarded KSM and his confessions were part of the evidence used to draw us into the Iraq war?

    U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM on March 1, 2003 in Rawalpindi, Pakistan. He was not water boarded until a few months after that, according to the same sources you use as the existance of the technique.

    So, please tell us, how is time travel now involved in all of this?

  26. Jack,

    You’re thinking of al-Libbi, not KSM.

    But the answer is “Yes, yes we did gather the intelligence used to support claims of ongoing WMD programs in Iraq and an alliance betweeen the Iraqi government and al Qaeda by waterboarding a captive.”

    He was mentioned specifically in Colin Powell’s speech to the UN.

    Guy Montag knows this. Guy Montag is more interested in winning arguments than in the truth.

  27. So, the terrorist allies here believe that the water cure is still in use today, even though the same exact sources that revealed it was only water boarding also revealed that it has not been used in 4 years.

    Trying to get just hown you guys pick your “facts”.

    Oh, wait, the answer is in the first line of this comment. My bad.

  28. Guy won’t answer my question because I scare him so much that he pees his pants.

  29. Ad hominem attacks and begging the question? Now that’s a compelling argument!

  30. When I walk down the street towards Guy Montag, he crosses the street and turns his face away, in the hope that I won’t notice him and put him in a headlock.

    But it doesn’t work. Guy is a such a chicken-livered little wuss that I make of habit of putting him in a headlock and until he calls me Big Papi, on my way from the organic food store to the meeting of the Sensitive Liberals of America.

  31. Guy, if you don’t answer my question, I’m going to make you wear the polka dot dress I grabbed on the way out of your mom’s bedroom.

    Again.

  32. a specie of torture well known to the bench and bar of the country.

    We really need to move Westpoint, Washington DC, the CIA and the Pentagon out of the South.

  33. If Giuliani and Tancredo don’t believe in merciful restraint, neither do I. Let’s force them to eat their own shit until they recant their support of torture.

  34. was that an eric burden reference?

    Bob Dylan.

  35. joe,

    You should listen to guy. After all, guy knows more about torture than the fellow who was the chief instructor at SERE school.

  36. Guy, if you don’t answer my question, I’m going to make you wear the polka dot dress I grabbed on the way out of your mom’s bedroom.

    Not one question mark in any of your comments joe.

    They look like this:

    ?

  37. Oops – hit post too soon.

    After all, everyone knows that Navy Seals are one step away from being joint-smoking hippie pacifists.

  38. Guy,
    Why don’t you tell the to Rudy and Mitt “Double Guantanamo”, who seem to think that waterboarding isn’t torture.

    Oh and as for this point:

    Yea, the old “water cure” is the same as water boarding fiction.

    From Wikipedia:

    “Water cure (also known as water torture) is a form of torture which is intended to make the subject feel the sensation of drowning. In the most common variation, the torturer pours water down the throat of the subject to inflict the terror of drowning, without causing the subject to drown. The victim also experiences the pain of stomach distention, and water intoxication. In another variation, the subject is tied or held down in a chair, his face is covered with a cloth or plastic sheet, and water is poured slowly or quickly over his face to encourage him to talk (see “waterboarding” for more detail).

    This really can’t be said too often: You’re a moron.

  39. joe, I actually agree with you and not with Guy but thanks for reminding me what an ass you are. It’s not that I would forget, but it’s nice of you to keep it fresh.

  40. So, the terrorist allies here believe that the water cure is still in use today, even though the same exact sources that revealed it was only water boarding also revealed that it has not been used in 4 years.

    Why do you think it’s okay to call people who disagree with you about waterboarding “terrorist allies?” You know, you often get shrill when you’re arguing this stuff.

  41. So, the terrorist allies here believe

    The enemy, whether he be internal, like the “Jew” or the “kulak,” or external, seems to be an indispensable requisite in the armory of a totalitarian leader. FA Hayek

  42. Also, Guy, tarran brings up an essential point regarding your position on waterboarding.

    Why are you (or Giuliani, for that matter) more qualified to assess what waterboarding is than military men who have taught it and experienced it? Are they also, “terrorist allies?”

  43. Waah waah waah.

    Sombodies need to get over their whuppings.

  44. “”””In other words, there is a significant difference between stating “let’s not torture prisoners of war*” and “let’s give prisoners of war Miranda rights.””””

    I would say the differnce is in unalienable rights. We pretend to be a counrty that believes in it, but our government’s actions beg to differ.

    Guy if want to support torture, go right ahead. It’s your choice, but don’t try to belittle people who want to stand up against such an evil act. Torture is what the evil side does. It is part of what makes them wrong and worthy of our wrath.

  45. TrickyVic,

    Don’t forget, the fact that Saddam tortured was part of the reason we went after him in the first place. It was one of the many crimes that made him an “evil dude” worthy of being overthrown was the fact that he tortured his own people.

  46. joe, you sure are one big man on teh intertubes. Maybe you could brag some more about your “victories” on the Internet, it might impress an equally non-existent woman.

    I mean, chimp-like posturing via a keyboard is impressive and all–I wouldn’t want to take away from your accomplishments–but spanking it to virtual arguments is no way to go through your mid-life crisis.

  47. This really can’t be said too often: You’re a moron.

    Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron. Guy, you’re a moron.

    Hey Mo, you’re right. You really can’t say it too often. And I doubted you.

  48. Guy if want to support torture, go right ahead. It’s your choice, but don’t try to belittle people who want to stand up against such an evil act.

    Hell, Guy, belittle us if you want to, even. Just don’t fall victim to the idea-fuckwittery that opposing my government’s use of torture make me a “terrorist ally.”

  49. Oh, good, my groupies are here to talk about me.

    It’s good to know I count on you to keep trying make every thread a discussion of me, Episiarch. The fact that you keep using the same words adds nicely to the dependability.

    I’m sure everyone else appreciates your devotion, too. Otherwise, we might get bogged down in boring discussions about politics.

    What was this thread about, again? Banana bread or something?

  50. Seriously, morality aside (if that’s possible) torture is an notoriously unreliable way to gain information. It always has been, it always will be. Guiliani and Tancredo would both admit to buggering their own daughters if I could question them unfettered by legal niceties and my own morality.

    Guy, how fucking stupid do you think people are?
    Hint, it’s less stupid than you.

  51. I do believe that, if you stripped all the name-calling, ad hominem, ass-biting nonsense from Hit & Run, you’d be able to fit what’s left into a thimble. And with that…it’s weekend.
    Helloooo Johnnie Walker.

  52. polka dots?

    OMG!
    okay. okay. okay.

    That was really funny!

    Epi – just as extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, making fun and ridiculing those sick fucks who excuse torture is also no vice. It’s a virtue.

    🙂

  53. ed, you ignorant slut.

  54. ed,

    I like to think of my name-calling, ad hominem, ass-biting nonsense as a bit of salt to add to my content. Just a bit as garnish, no more, no less.

  55. Jack | November 16, 2007, 3:09pm | #
    So, torture in Mississippi, torture in Cambodia, torture in WWII Japan, not torture in Gitmo

    phenomenal

    You left out the Spanish Inquisition, and the Spanish-American war in the Philippenes

    e.g. http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/scriven/bohol-history.html

    …Not all of the “insurrectos” who were killed, though, were always insurrectos, or killed in combat. Some were civilians who’d been executed. Others — whether insurrectos or not — had been tortured to death. The commonest form of torture was known as the “water cure,” and it was so common that, on Bohol, toward the end of the war, people joked about getting it — and then got it. It became, as its nickname suggests, a kind of liquid panacea, a cure for whatever you couldn’t kill — a cure for disloyalty, a cure for native “insolence,” a cure for the insurrection — that the army doled out like the shots for the small pox it also dispensed. Ostensibly, the “water cure” was used to elicit information. But the information it obtained was always suspect. And people died from it. Testifying before Congress in 1903, Lt. Grover Flint gave a sanitized but still vivid account of the way that it worked:

    A man is thrown down on his back and three or four men sit or stand on his arms and legs and hold him down; …a carbine barrel or a stick as big as a belaying pin… is simply thrust into his jaws and his jaws are thrust back, and, if possible, a wooden log or stone is put under his head or neck, so he can be held more firmly. In the case of very old men I have seen their teeth fall out, — and I mean when it was done a little roughly. He is simply held down and then water is poured onto his face down his throat and nose from a jar; and that is kept up until the man gives some sign or becomes unconscious. And then… he is simply… rolled aside rudely, so that water is expelled. A man suffers tremendously, there is no doubt about it. [S. Doc. 331, 57 Cong., 1 Sess. (1903), pp. 1767-1768]

    “…so that water is expelled” was a decorous way of saying “vomiting, atrociously.” But sometimes victims didn’t get that far; sometimes they just drowned. Or they talked — they “spilled their guts” another way — and they were executed anyhow.

    The “water cure” and other tortures, along with the burnings, gave the army campaigns of the summer and fall an air of vandalism and of offhand, almost casual violence. But outside of Bohol the situation had changed, and the army was under pressure to bring the fighting to an end. Early in 1900, President McKinley had appointed a committee of civilians to administer the islands’ affairs and in July 1901 this second Philippine Commission, headed by William Howard Taft, had been officially installed at Manila. It began to treat the islands like a colony, and less like a theater of war, “substituting,” in McKinley’s words, “the mild sway of justice and right” for “the extensive burning of the barrios… [and] the torturing of natives by the so-called `water cure'” that were more often the rule (and not McKinley’s words at all). The Commission expected and wanted the war to be over. So, increasingly, did people back home, from all the usual, loud and conflicting persuasions.

    Next up

    Guy Montag | November 16, 2007, 3:50pm | #
    So, the terrorist allies here believe that the water cure is still in use today…

    1 – we’ve used it extensively in at least one of the black sites (romania), as testified to by 3 or so “misidentified” dudes rendered there – see Frontline’s piece on this from last month

    2 – the Admin continues to try to get full “exemption” for the CIA’s use of the practice from the McCain ‘anti cruelty’ clauses in the war funding bill last year

    Whether they (the CIA) are still employing the tactics cannot be known 100%. But the point should be clear = it’s been determined to be unconstitutional, illegal, and in violation of the international convention on torture, to which the US was a signatory.

    The argument against the use of torture is in no way “sympathy for the victims” – its in favor of rule of law, and not letting our country make mealy-mouthed ‘exceptions’ for unconscionable behavior. If we say, “torture for me but not for thee”, we lose any ability to protect our own servicemen and CIA from rampant abuse. Just as we throw away the Geneva convention for ourselves, we give others latitude (and reason!) to use any means they choose on captured ‘suspects’. Once you let this cat out of the bag, you undermine 100 years of UCMJ, existing service field manuals, and basic human rights arguments.

    Guy, you seem to think that it’s IMPORTANT we should use this tactic. The simple point is that it isnt worth it, and isnt particularly effective. All you have on your side is some stupid “more manly american than you” posturing, and it’s disgraceful and childish. If you used your brain rather than your dick when arguing about this, you’d see the sense of calling a spade a spade, admitting it’s torture, and that the US has more to lose than to gain in defending its use.

  56. What was this thread about, again? Banana bread or something?

    Banana bread totally rules.

  57. Oh, and torture is wrong and stuff. Damn, I’m good!

  58. “””Maybe you could brag some more about your “victories” on the Internet, it might impress an equally non-existent woman.”””

    Joe’s women exist, he just needs a credit card. 😉

    Sorry joe, couldn’t resist.

  59. What was this thread about, again? Banana bread or something?

    I thought it was about banana bread that you baked in Guy’s mother’s hot yeast-infected pussy, or something like that. I can never tell with you, joe.

  60. wow.

    oh.my.zod.

    Eipsiarch.

    that.was.beautiful.

    But when “What A” Guy Dienstag is at Dave and Buster’s tonight, he’ll be dripping salty ham tears in his appletini before he goes home to dry hump his penis shaped pillow while chanting 9/11 over and over again until the predictable, lackluster finish that only needs one tissue to clean.

  61. VM, sometime I will impart my “why does your dorm room smell like you’re baking bread in here?” story. Guaranteed to make you squirm.

  62. If you need to read the Miranda to every capture on the battlefield I think I’d prefer to take no prisoners at all.

    1)POWs are not required to give any more information than name and rank. Using coercive methods of any kind to obtain any further information from POWs is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Conventions generally require that POWs be treated humanely (and not subjected to punishments that are not warranted due to misconduct) and returned to their own countries at the end of hostilities.

    2)Many of the detainees at Gitmo and other sites were not captured on the battlefield. They were arrested or otherwise detained in the course of intelligence and police investigations. Some were simply turned over to us by our Afghan “allies” and have, to say the least, a somewhat suspect terrorist connection.

    3)It is true that spies, saboteurs, insurgents and terrorists are generally held to fall outside the protections of the Geneva Conventions as they apply to POWs, eg they can be interrogated, the same limits that are normally held to apply to normal criminal suspects apply.

    Naturally, there are wide differences of opinion among different countries as to the appropriate treatment of criminal suspects, the US is supposed to fall on the side of countries with fairly strict limits on coercion.

    As someone else said, nobody here is complaining that detainees were “not read their Miranda rights”, the complaint is that they were tortured.

    Guy Montag, it doesn’t matter if it’s been four years since water torture was used (wow, FOUR WHOLE YEARS, huh?). What matters is that it WAS used and that high ranking administration officials approved it. And, furthermore, they have announced their intention to use it again.

  63. ed | November 16, 2007, 4:26pm | #
    I do believe that, if you stripped all the name-calling, ad hominem, ass-biting nonsense from Hit & Run, you’d be able to fit what’s left into a thimble. And with that…it’s weekend.
    Helloooo Johnnie Walker.

    True, true. But thats the spice of life. No logic could be digested without the flavor of the occasional “fucking asshat!” or “terrorist sympathizer!” Come for the Vituperation….Stay for the *Reason*

    That said… hellooooo makers mark!

  64. Happy Jack | November 16, 2007, 4:08pm | #

    So, the terrorist allies here believe

    The enemy, whether he be internal, like the “Jew” or the “kulak,” or external, seems to be an indispensable requisite in the armory of a totalitarian leader. FA Hayek

    HJ

    Good quote.

    I think the current jargon is “fellow traveller” if you are talking about leftists trying to point out subtleties on their side, “comprador” if you are talking about right-wingers trying to point out their subtleties and “soft on terror” if you are trying to look at Islamic extremists in terms of the complexities of the Middle East.

    FWIW, torture can extract useful information, if it is used in a strictly calculating fashion. In WWII, resistance fighters assumed that, if one of them were taken alive, the person captured would ultimately divulge everything they knew. This was the primary reason for the “cell” system, where the amount each resistance fighter knew was limited.

    There was also the CIA station head taken [by Hizbollah?] in Lebanon (I regret I don’t have the man’s name) in the 1980s. Through the KGB, the CIA ultimately obtained the tapes of his interogation under torture. They played the tapes and listened while entire CIA network in Lebanon was ultimately blown.

  65. Oh, and Guy, if that’s AOK with you (and it seems to be) then, yes, you’re a moron.

  66. That said… hellooooo makers mark!

    What, you don’t start drinking until 5?

    I’m still at work, bitch 🙁

  67. Epi – can’t wait!! 🙂

  68. For the life of me, I just don’t get what all the fuss is about. But then, I am pro-toture.

  69. FWIW, torture can extract useful information, if it is used in a strictly calculating fashion

    The Economist did a special ‘survey’ issue on torture in… i forget. 2001 i think. The results are mixed as far as efficacy of torture vs. other means. One problem is that torturing people WILL guarantee they tell you *something* – however, that something usually is a) false, b) what you want to hear, c) often less useful than getting the suspect to “sell you” their info…i.e. you use them as an asset. Quid pro quo. Of course this isnt always the case, nor always possible, but the effectiveness of torture has shown to be fairly limited, and not the best way to get “all” the information you need from someone. If you need just ONE thing, a name, etc… it can do the trick.

  70. Addendum: I mean, I look at the anti-torture crowd as being akin to the global warming alarmists. It’s just a way to present one’s self as superior to everyone that doesn’t agree.

    e.g., I drive a prius and of course, I don’t approve of tourture.

  71. oh, addendum to the above =

    the Frontline story I’d mentioned above noted that substantial ‘evidence’ about “Al quaeda partnering with Saddamn” and Saddamns WMD caches had come from suspects we’d nabbed and tortured in the Romanian black site.

    meaning, our decision to torture first and investigate later is part of what got us into this shitpot in the first place. We asked them the wrong question, then tortured them until they said ‘yes’. Just an example of how you will often get information through torture… but not necessarily the right information.

  72. Mark | November 16, 2007, 5:09pm | #
    Addendum: I mean, I look at the anti-torture crowd as being akin to the global warming alarmists. It’s just a way to present one’s self as superior to everyone that doesn’t agree.

    e.g., I drive a prius and of course, I don’t approve of tourture.

    har. We both ‘addendumed’ back to back.

    Well, that may be the case for some people, undoubtedly. Just as it is for the people who approve of it because they’re RED BLOODED AMERICANS WHO THINK WE SHOULD NUKE IRAN AND DRIVE AN AMERICAN TRUCK WITH A SHOTGUN AND A ‘THESE COLORS DONT RUN’ AND ‘JESUS IS MY CO-PILOT’ BUMPER STICKERS

    meaning, there is no monopoly on reasoning-through-narcissism.

    My particular opposition to the policy is already clarified above, and has more to do with practical application of tactics and diplomacy than bleeding-heartness.

  73. “meaning, our decision to torture first and investigate later is part of what got us into this shitpot in the first place. We asked them the wrong question, then tortured them until they said ‘yes’.”

    I don’t recall saying anything about extracting information. All I said was that I’m pro-toture.

  74. Historically, torture has been used to get the answer you want, truth be damned.

    Answers given under torture is about as reliable as curveball. But this administration has no problem pretending unreliable is of quality.

    Torture is not something you use to get quality infromation. But it works great to get someone to admit something they didn’t do. Even if we sidestep the moral issue, torture should not be used because it is more likely to produce bad information.

    Can everyone here can agree that when we get information, we want it to of quality so we don’t waste time chasing ghosts while the bad guys are doing their deeds?

  75. GILMORE

    I agree. I should have put more emphasis on “can”. It depends on the interrogator taking a rigidly self-critical approach with careful cross-checking of the information.

    The “quid pro quo” scenario is effective if you have something to bargain with. In the case of an idealogically/religiously/patrioticly committed individual, there is little to offer in a positive sense, only a relief from the pain.

    Even with the caveat, one still has to ask “Do we WANT to be the kind of people who use torture to achieve our ends, however noble those ends or base our enemies may be?”

    I suspect you & I & joe & J sub D & most of the other posters on this thread would answer “no”.

  76. Mark = Uday.

    Or a really lame-ass troll job.

    Aresen – I’d asnwer, “FUCK NO!!!”

  77. The difference between waterboarding and the water cure is simple. One is used today, by our government and is therefore not torture. The other is used by other countries or in other times and is torture.

  78. “Mark = Uday.

    Or a really lame-ass troll job.”

    Sorry if holding an oposing view gives you cause to make the claim that I am a troll. Pretty sad, really.

    But again, I am fine with torture. Even if it’s simple to exact revenge. Thinkl of it this way: if your enemy knows that he will be tortured if captured, then there is a good chance that they will choose to commit suicide rather than be captured. This rudeces the risk of having to deal with prisoners.

  79. Make certain to point out my typos. That will really show me!

  80. They ruled that the confession was obtained illegally THROUGH TORTURE.

    Technically, that would be dicta, as they were not asked to rule on whether it was torture or not, only whether the confession was obtained illegally.

    Carry on.

    our decision to torture first and investigate later is part of what got us into this shitpot in the first place

    I don’t recall AQ listing our harsh treatment of suspected terrorists in their list of particulars re: the 9/11 attack, but maybe I ust overlooked it.

    Please, there’s plenty to kvetch about in the WOT without making stuff up.

  81. Mark,

    That’s exactly how I feel about people who are anti-raping your mother.

    “Oh, look at me! I think it’s wrong to rape Mark’s mother! I’m so much better than people who think it’s wrong to rape Mark’s mother!”

    Buncha superior assholes, you ask me.

  82. They want to be the evil that defeats all other evil. That, in no way, puts them on the side of good. They want to be greatest of evil.

  83. And as we all know, a suicidal terrorist is a harmless terrorist.

  84. Les,

    My mother is 20-years in the grave, but if you wish, have at her.

  85. “And as we all know, a suicidal terrorist is a harmless terrorist.”

    All enemies are terrorists? I had no idea!

  86. No – holding a barbaric opposing view is why either you’re Uday (or no better than he) or a troll.

    Think of it this way: you equated Pius (sic) driving greenie freaks to those who aren’t barbaric and as pussified as you. That’s trolling. Dan T level prime.

    Pretty Sad, really.

    ooh. Typeos. bazing. A toughie and a jokster, too!

    good thing that your mom doesn’t know what a puke her son turned out to be.

  87. “”””But again, I am fine with torture. Even if it’s simple to exact revenge. Thinkl of it this way: if your enemy knows that he will be tortured if captured, then there is a good chance that they will choose to commit suicide rather than be captured. This rudeces the risk of having to deal with prisoners.”””

    Did you get that out of the AQ field manual?

  88. VM

    Anger management just might be a help to you. It’s amazing the effect an opposing viewpoint has on you.

  89. Uday,

    Nah – I’m pro dumping on you.

    It’s just my fun. Like torture is yours. I like dumping on you. Pro dumping, if you will.

    And I stand by my statements.

  90. I also like racketball.

  91. “And I stand by my statements.”

    I appreciate that, VM.

  92. .. and I like long walks in the woods.

    And I like hating torture.

    And kittens and puppies. I like them, too.

  93. … and I like BATIN while listening to early years REM.

  94. AND I LIKE THE WEIBSKOBOLD WHEN THE URKOBOLD ISN’T LOOKING.

    *BOUNCY BOUNCY*

  95. Mark,

    Any concerns at all about the possibility that the people captured might not be “the enemy” in any meaningful sense? That maybe not all of them “hate us for our freedoms” or are withholding plans for some nefarious act? Don’t you think revenge (accepting only for the sake of argument that it’s a reasonable justification for torture) makes the most sense when it’s exacted against people who have actually done something to harm us? Or do you take the view that anyone we capture must be our enemy?

  96. … and I like BATIN while listening to early years REM

    But VM…

    do you like pina colada’s? Gettin caught in the rain…

    🙂

  97. “Any concerns at all about the possibility that the people captured might not be “the enemy” in any meaningful sense? That maybe not all of them “hate us for our freedoms””

    While I woudn’t discount the posibility, it’s important to know I’m not one of those “hate us for our freedoms” people.

  98. I suspect you & I & joe & J sub D & most of the other posters on this thread would answer “no”.

    Aresen, with the exception of Vince McMahon, it’s a definitive NO!

  99. While I woudn’t discount the posibility, it’s important to know I’m not one of those “hate us for our freedoms” people.

    So, you believe it’s okay to torture innocent people in order to scare guilty people into killing themselves?

  100. gaijin, pina coladas are sooo gay. Not that there’s anything wrong with that…

  101. “So, you believe it’s okay to torture innocent people in order to scare guilty people into killing themselves?”

    No, I’m open to the possibility that mistakes can be made. Your sentence is not a summary of my position.

  102. The troll job started out well, with the Pius comment, but it deteriorated. 3.5/10

    AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PENA COLADAS. THEY AREN’T GAY. MR. SULU TOLD ME SO.

  103. I suspect that someone started posting here under one handle, got seriously humiliated, and so came back posting under a different handle. Hmm.

  104. R.C. Dean,

    Remember, Qutb only turned to radicalism once he was tortured by the Egyptian regime. Qutb’s writings were central to the creation of Al Qaeda.

  105. Actually, that is how we both found out they were doing it to begin with. If it is just a big lie then what are you crying about?

    Wow, what a fucking idiot. You aren’t familiar with the phrase “statement against interests”, are you?

  106. “Wow, what a fucking idiot”

    an excellent, general description of anybody who is in favor of torture.

  107. “an excellent, general description of anybody who is in favor of torture”

    I have to respectfully disagree; it only comments on intellectual deficiencies, but doesn’t say anything about the moral deficiencies.

  108. J sub D

    “…with the exception of Vince McMahon…”

    I’m not sure whether that means you hate Pro Wrestling or you love Pro Wrestling but hate what Vince McMahon’s done to it.

    Rips off opponent’s arm, throws it into the crowd, prances around ring with his arms in the air.

  109. I have to respectfully disagree; it only comments on intellectual deficiencies, but doesn’t say anything about the moral deficiencies.

    What if we change “fucking” to “goatfucking”?

  110. Vince McMahon is, of course, the worst and best thing to happen to pro wrestling. No one has done more to make it mainstream, and no one has done more to make wrestling boring as sin (especially lately). I watch TNA out of protest now.

  111. I’m not sure whether that means you hate Pro Wrestling or you love Pro Wrestling but hate what Vince McMahon’s done to it.

    I’m not sure either. I loved it when i was 10 and no Vince Mcmahon in sight. But I also thought Gilligan’s Island was funny when I was 10. Still, Vince McMahon is a real douchebag, ain’t he?

  112. I actually had to google “Vince McMahon” to find out what you were referring to.

    I detest Pro Wrestling.

    And that was from watching it for all of two minutes. My younger brother did amateur wrestling & taught me how to watch it and see what was going on.

    Amateur wrestling is an art. Pro Wrestling is a sham. I have no idea what degree of responsibility Vince McMahon has for the state of the latter.

  113. No, I’m open to the possibility that mistakes can be made. Your sentence is not a summary of my position.

    So, you’re pro-torture for only people that have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to…what? Be terrorists? Be terrorists with information we can use?

  114. Pro Wrestling is a sham.

    Since it doesn’t pretend to be real, it’s merely “entertainment.” I think it’s the vaudeville of our age, actually. Only the jokes aren’t as good.

  115. The troll job started out well, with the Pius comment, but it deteriorated. 3.5/10

    No, no, the Prius comment was the worst part of it. Saying you support something is one thing. Saying that everyone who disagrees with you must be trying to look superior is junior-high level reasoning.

  116. Everyone who watches wrestling and is over 10 knows it is not real. So what if it is fake. I’m sure you realize that Sienfeld was not a documentary about this Jewish guy in New York, or that Hamlet was not derived from the clinical notes of a psychologist treating a young royal who was melancholy.

    The only thing lower-brow than pro wrestling is someone who says pro-wrestling must be low brow because it is (horror) staged.

  117. J sub D
    McMahon is a strange one to pin down. Sometimes he will do some grand things, like take care of some wrestler’s widow when he does not have to. And other times he acts like white trash with a mean streak…I imagine both are true to some extent…

  118. As a matter of policy, we don’t get to decide to implement torture only in the right circumstances, against the right people, done in the right way.

    We get to decide whether George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, or Duncan Hunter gets to order people tortured.

    Ergo, pointing out that it can be useful in precisely the right circumstances isn’t good enough.

    (I think somebody got humiliated, too. I hope my methods weren’t too terribly offense. I know some are more tightly-wound than others.)

  119. (I think somebody got humiliated, too. I hope my methods weren’t too terribly offense. I know some are more tightly-wound than others.)

    Your methods are guaranteed by the first amendment. In this case, they may have seemed like torture to some, but seeming and being are two different things. Well done.

  120. RC DEAN sez =

    GILMORE = our decision to torture first and investigate later is part of what got us into this shitpot in the first place

    I don’t recall AQ listing our harsh treatment of suspected terrorists in their list of particulars re: the 9/11 attack, but maybe I ust overlooked it.

    Please, there’s plenty to kvetch about in the WOT without making stuff up.

    RC Cola =

    You and i agree about 1 out of 10 times. this could have been one of those moments if you didnt assume i was bullshitting. I was referencing this frontline piece about “extrordinary rendition” =

    http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701/video/video_index.html

    they cite that at least 3 sources who were ‘rendered’* post Afghanistan invasion confessed under duress to Saddam links with their org, when in fact there were none. My point was not anything about 9/11, but rather how we used torture to get faulty information about iraq that we wanted to hear at some levels, whether we trusted the source or not. I was not making some hysterical accusations on no evidence or “making things up”, FWIW.

    I give this one a score of (-) for agree/disagree simply because i dont know if you read my comments or were just reacting to a random remark you picked up, slashing it out of context.

    JG

    *re: extraordinary rendition = the term “render” always makes me think we mean to turn terrorists into really super-quality soap or something.

  121. p.s. to the above –

    the frontline piece isnt entirely one-sided about the situation; the first interview they do is with a guy that to most people would seem with precisely the kind of guy you’d want to crush his nuts in a vice.

    some of the later examples were purely innocent guys snatched and tortured

  122. Sorry –

    “most people would seem *with*” = “most people would seem *like* precisely the”…

    (stupid makers mark, fast typing)

  123. So we are now officially more barbaric that 1920s-era Mississippi.

    Hey now!

  124. So we are now officially more barbaric that 1920s-era Mississippi.

    err..all i can think of are Faulker stories. We mo’bad than Barn Burning

  125. Aresen | November 16, 2007, 5:23pm | #

    Even with the caveat, one still has to ask “Do we WANT to be the kind of people who use torture to achieve our ends, however noble those ends or base our enemies may be?”

    …pretty much the same point as this guy here, who has done the specific deed (waterboarding), a whole lot more than anyone else here at least:

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec07/waterboarding_11-08.html

    MALCOLM NANCE: Well, the question is, before September 11th, we had this — we didn’t actually have this written into our policy. We were using the practices and procedures of military intelligence. And the ticking time bomb scenario has always been used as a straw man for other dictators and totalitarian nations. The Argentineans had this problem when they carried out the dirty war…Will that scenario ever happen? We can’t say that it’s going to happen without certainty. But the laws exist. And if we’re going to sit here and we’re going to exist as a nation and understand that America doesn’t torture, if there is an exceptional circumstance, well, perhaps those people are going to have to be absolutely certain that they have the right people, and they may have to violate the law and then suffer the consequences. If they’re wrong, I want them to think once, twice, 30 times.

    [Malcolm Nance is a former U.S. Navy instructor who trained Navy Seals to deal with waterboarding and other harsh interrogation tactics. Nance is the director of Special Readiness Services International, a consulting company that has worked with the Department of Homeland Security and other government agencies.]

  126. Last stupid joke (from me) on this thread

    Conan | November 16, 2007, 8:51pm | #
    So we are now officially more barbaric that 1920s-era Mississippi.

    Hey now!
    Hey now!
    Aiko Aiko all day,
    Jockomo feno na na nay
    Jockomo feen na nay.

  127. last comment (i swear!) –

    RC DEAN = i apologize. we probably agree 3 out of 10 times. i just dont bother to rebutt or concur sometimes 🙂

  128. I give this one a score of (-) for agree/disagree simply because i dont know if you read my comments

    I couldn’t tell which shithole you were talking about – the big one (the global conflict with radical Islam) or the little one (Iraq).

  129. R C Dean | November 16, 2007, 10:53pm | #
    GILMORE =I give this one a score of (-) for agree/disagree simply because i dont know if you read my comments

    I couldn’t tell which shithole you were talking about – the big one (the global conflict with radical Islam) or the little one (Iraq).

    Actually, i was referring to the truly big shithole (iraq) not the little one (the “global war on terror” which is mostly in northwest pakistan and east+south afghanistan), based on lives and dollars its cost so far.

    thats my way of referencing it, although i understand that shithole is a subjective term

  130. So we are now officially more barbaric that 1920s-era Mississippi. Great.

    It would be cool if we were!

  131. Against my standing rule of not paying any attention to joe, I will respond to this.

    Jack,

    You’re thinking of al-Libbi, not KSM.

    But the answer is “Yes, yes we did gather the intelligence used to support claims of ongoing WMD programs in Iraq and an alliance betweeen the Iraqi government and al Qaeda by waterboarding a captive.”

    He was mentioned specifically in Colin Powell’s speech to the UN.

    Guy Montag knows this. Guy Montag is more interested in winning arguments than in the truth.

    Actually, I may have known that, but I did not rember the slightest bit of it. I saw the post, was pretty sure that KSH was captured close to liberation time, looked it up and posted.

    That is all there was to it.

  132. Hey terrorist lovers, why don’t you encourage your “base” buddies to train on water boarding a lot? Then they will be immune to real Americans asking them anything!

    My recommendation is at least 12 hrs. per day.

  133. Now that I have finally read some of the posts, my response to joe was premature.

    Several posts demanding a response while I was noplace near a computer much less reading this Reason thread?

    Back to skipping anything joe. Sorry for the interruption.

  134. Guy, you seem to think that it’s IMPORTANT we should use this tactic.

    Perhaps you should stick with what I write for an attempt at what my position is?

    I am the one who said we have not used this for about 4 years. Yea, I would prefer it to be around but it isn’t and I am not King.

    For some reason, the frequent posters here think we are still doing it because we can not believe the government that told us we are no longer doing it. The only authoratitive source we have is the government that told us we did it in the past.

    Have a lovely night all. Sleep well.

  135. “I don’t know Guy, because it’s on the record that we waterboarded KSM and his confessions were part of the evidence used to draw us into the Iraq war?”

    Uh, KSM was captured after the Iraq war had already started. I oppose torture, and I think water boarding is torture, but selecting KSM as your poster-boy does not enhance your argument much.

  136. Hey terrorist lovers, why don’t you encourage your “base” buddies to train on water boarding a lot?

    I’ll tell them tonight when we all go out clubbing. (Confession: I am indeed a terrorist ally, and the reason our government has not yet found Bin Laden is because the stupid assholes never bothered looking to see who’s crashing on my couch. Take that, secular democratic ideals!)

  137. Jennifer, you wild thang!

  138. was that an eric burden reference?

    Byrds. Loved that song. Tried to explain it to my father who was entirely baffled.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ0wDoYJSd8

    Dylan did it up right long time later (for his big shindig celebrating his longevity I think). He wrote it.

    Just in case no one offered.

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