Liberty Dollar Reportedly Raided by FBI

The Evansville Courier-Press, the local paper in the city where the Liberty Dollar is headquartered, is reporting:

The future of an Evansville-based company that produces a "private voluntary barter currency" known as the Liberty Dollar is in question after federal agents raided the facility this week, according to an e-mail sent by its founder.

Federal officials reportedly raided the group's headquarters, located in a strip mall at 225 N. Stockwell Road, early Wednesday morning and seized documents and precious metals.

See Stephen Gordon's blog for the full letter Liberty Dollar chief Bernard von NotHaus supposedly sent out this morning, and for some speculation that the whole email and story might be bogus. Like the Evansville Courier-Press, I have so far gotten no comment from the Indianapolis FBI, and no returned calls from von NotHaus or the U.S. Attorney's office for the Western District of North Carolina. The Courier-Press story does state that they spoke to unnamed Liberty Dollar employees who seemed to verify the raid had indeed occurred.

UPDATE: Thanks to reasoner Jeff Taylor, I've seen a copy of a Nov. 9 seizure warrant on an Asheville, NC, address, not available online, claiming that Liberty Dollars at that address are forefeitable for being connected with money laundering and mail fraud. I have not read the entire 38 page warrant, nor am I 100 percent certain it is connected with the actions in Evansville today, but given that the Indianapolis FBI referred me to the U.S. Attorney in North Carolina, probably so, and that multiple raids were planned or executed re: the liberty dollar.

The warrant explains that the FBI from Aug 2005 to July 2007 were "conducting undercover operations to determine the legality of the American Liberty Dollar currency." The warrant also notes that von NotHaus sold an undercover agent a Liberty Dollar T-shirt, and that the agent observed von NotHaus driving a 1999 Cadillac Deville. It doesn't take a trained federal agent to connect the dots here, I suppose. In other words: What-th-what-th-What?

Comments

[Shannon Love]

We used to have a local barter system here that got shut down by the state and local tax authorities. They never raided anybody they just started requiring so much tax paper work for each transaction that people just gave up.

[Russ R]

I wonder if this will have any impact on the Liberty Dollar / FRN exchange rate.

[Taktix?]

Crap, the front page of this story is an ad for Ron Paul liberty dollars. This will make for either:

A: Ammo for the other GOP candidates, or...

B: a chance to publicize the goals standard stuff...

[squarooticus]

The war on gold has begun anew. History tells us how it will end, but it could be ugly in the meantime.

[joe]

Barter currency?

If you're trading goods for currency or vice-versa, how is that bartering?

[Jozef]

As soon as independent currencies are used in transactions, using them places you outside the tax system, which I guess ultimately was the reason behind the Liberty Dollar raids. I don't subscribe the "competition to US currency" theory - people who want to protect the value of their holdings can always purchase gold. I used to do it at 10 ounces apiece, but recently it's become too difficult as the price of dollars falls faster than my salary raises can offset.

[Gambutt Rambutt]

I suggest a new Puberty Dollar made of zits.

[sage]

If you're trading goods for currency or vice-versa, how is that bartering?

Because it's voluntary. You're not required to accept it.

I think this is an ugly precedent, if true. Though it's been said the Mint hates competition.

[carrick]

Barter currency?

If the "currency" is not legal tender per the US goverment, then exchanging this "currency" for other products is by definition "barter".

[Russ 2000]

The war on gold has begun anew.

If it goes anything like the war on drugs, transactions in gold should take off.

[Market Money]

Who wants to buy silver at $20 per troy ounce anyway ?

[Warren]

It's just the Feds way of saying "Who do you think your fucking with"

It's straight up totalitarian oppression. I haven't heard anything about the FBI raiding the town of Ithica NY

[joe]

So it's the fact that the value of the "barter currency" isn't established by law that makes it a barter item instead of a currency?

$20 US is $20 US.

A pile of beaver hides is worth whatever two people in a transaction agree it's worth.

The Liberty Dollars are only worth what people trading with and for them decide they're worth, so they're more like beaver hides.

Is that it?

[sage]

Right now, joe, you can get one liberty dollar for about eighty-six cents.

The "barter" part comes when you offer a liberty dollar as a payment where FRNs are the norm. I imagine most of the time the people will say "no" but sometimes they'll take the coins because no matter what's stamped on them, they are gold (or silver). And they can't be worth less than that. Unlike FRNs.

[John-David]

$20 US is $20 US.

A pile of beaver hides is worth whatever two people in a transaction agree it's worth.

Yes, and how much is that in pubes?

[Daniel Morin]

The action of the FBI is simply another instance of Legal Plunder done by the government.

... while theft by one or more persons or groups is bad and criminal, that when the State engages in such acts, it is not theft but the legitimate and even sanctified act called "taxation."

See "Ethics of Liberty" at http://www.mises.org/rothbard/ethics/twentytwo.asp

[R C Dean]

$20 US is $20 US.

Not over any meaningful time scale.

[sage]

I think the government's biggest problem with this is: if the LD takes off, how could they tax it?

[Kwix]

UPDATE: Thanks to reasoner Jeff Taylor, I've seen a copy of a Nov. 9 seizure warrant on an Asheville, NC, address, not available online, claiming that liberty dollars at that address are forefeitable for being connected with money laundering and mail fraud.

Aww man, quit bogarting it and post it already. Yeah, I know, probably some legal stuff against doing so but still...

[Fluffy]

The money laundering charge makes it pretty clear that this is a tax issue.

The state will probably claim that each time you use one of these coins to engage in barter, you're realizing a capital gain, and have to pay a capital gains tax. Since I have to imagine that none of those taxes are being paid, that means that the state can claim that making these coins available constitutes "laundering".

[Jason]

R C Dean
"'$20 US is $20 US.'

Not over any meaningful time scale."

Nope, it'll still be $20 US. There just won't be a US for it to have value.

[carrick]

The spot price on silver bullion is between $14 and $15 per ounce today. So a one-ounce $20 Liberty coin has a worst case value of 14 to 15 bucks if you melt it down.

Whereas a $20 Federal Reserve Note means the US government owes you twenty dollars worth of nothing, but the law says that sellers are required to take them.

[Market Money]

One amusing thing about the Liberty Dollar people is that they're ostensibly trying to create a new currency and yet trying to peg it to the US dollar (so you can spend Liberty Dollars just like US dollars).

Silver is presently going for about US$ 14.50 per troy ounce. If we assume total confidence in the convertibility of paper Liberty Dollars -- snicker, snicker -- that would imply an exchange rate about US$1 = L$ 1.38 rather than a "you can spend them just like regular dollars" rate of 1:1.

[flix]

Carrick:

Liberty dollars are not sold at face value. A $20 is normally sold by liberty merchants at $15 or $16.

In any case, I'd rather have 14 bucks than an unbacked IOU.

[carrick]

Following up on Fluffy's point, if you trade 15 bucks worth of silver for a twenty dollar dvd at the local video shop, then you have realized a "gain".

[sage]

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, Fluffy, but if I trade you my car for your guitar, isn't that the same thing?

The only way I could see this standing up in court is if they decide it's different because the LD "looks like real money."

[andy]

You can argue all you like about how good a currency the LD is, but the fact is that the FED is scared of the competition and despite assertions to the contrary will defend its monopoly with guns.

[JL]

I think the government's biggest problem with this is: if the LD takes off, how could they tax it?

the same way they tax transactions made by people who exchange goods for federal reserve notes.

[Market Money]

This just in... The euro is now trading above 2.00 L$.

[carrick]

Liberty dollars are not sold at face value. A $20 is normally sold by liberty merchants at $15 or $16.

And then if you "buy" a DVD marked at $20 USD at a local store with a $20 LD, you have realized a gain . . . Unless the retailer is aware enough to give you only $15 USD in credit on the purchase.

[sixstring]

Pretty soon, all we'll have left to trade will be barbs.

[sage]

What andy said.

[question]

"Market Money | November 15, 2007, 4:37pm | #
This just in... The euro is now trading above 2.00 L$."

and what does that mean to you?

[Warren]

It doesn't take a trained federal agent to connect the dots here, I suppose. In other words: What-th-what-th-What?

Ha ha ha ha ha
Brian is definitely funnier than David.

[jj]

good one sixstring

[carrick]

In communities that use the LD, do the participants keep an up-to-date "exchange rate" between LDs and USDs? Or do people actually use LDs at the "face value" for transactions?

[The Democratic Republican]

Fed conspiracy theories are great and all, but I think we need to remember that we don't even know what's happened yet.

I for one am skeptical. I recently ordered a batch of Ron Paul dollars (a small batch), perhaps 10 days ago. I realized I gave them the wrong mailing address, so I emailed LAST NIGHT to give them my correct address (assuming the order hadn't already been mailed and lost). I wake up THIS MORNING to find a badly written email about an FBI raid in my inbox. I'm just saying...this seems weird, and I'd like to get some more info.

Thanks to Doherty for getting the first piece of hard news I've seen about this.

[Shannon Love]

joe,

So it's the fact that the value of the "barter currency" isn't established by law that makes it a barter item instead of a currency?

Something becomes "money" only when the vast majority of agents in the economy will accept it in exchange for any other good. People accept dollars because the government will enforce any contract payed in dollars (legal tender for all debts public and private) Before such discipline existed, people used gold which was a universally accepted trade good.

If something cannot rise to this level of acceptance then it is really only traded due to its intrinsic value. Therefore, the "value' of the liberty dollar for most people is merely the value of the silver it contains. So in taking a liberty dollar, people are really just trading beaver pelts for silver, which is barter.

Theoretically, if a critical mass of people used liberty dollars then they would suddenly become currency. I don't see that happening. Hell, gold coins aren't really currency anymore, Most people won't accept gold as common payment and the State will not enforce contracts paid in gold.

[sage]

I'm sure it's all a misunderstanding. Once vonGotsumgold is cleared of any wrongdoing, all his precious metal will be returned to him.

Right?

[Derrick]

and that the agent observed von NotHaus driving a 1999 Cadillac Deville

A damning piece of evidence, for sure.

[J sub D]

In communities that use the LD, do the participants keep an up-to-date "exchange rate" between LDs and USDs? Or do people actually use LDs at the "face value" for transactions?

In my travels I've noticed that most merchants know the exchange rate for US dollars. In many nations, you do better by doing your exchange in bars than you do at banks. People all over know what money is worth. If I were to accept these tokens as payment, I'd sure as hell know their value, vis a vis the US dollar.

[sage]

Well, this is something:

http://usadaily.com/Article.cfm?articleID=164591

"FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville IN seizing two tons of Ron Paul dollars.

(Editors note: Ron Paul and his campaign are not connected to Liberty Dollar and Paul's campaign has not endorsed the Paul dollar. It should also be noted that not all Liberty Dollars have Paul's likeness on them.)

According to this open letter posted on the alternative news site Whatreallyhappened.com, FBI and Secret service agents seized almost two tons of new Ron Paul gold dollars, files, computers, and froze bank accounts. "

Sorry for your loss, The Democratic Republican. That sucks.

[squarooticus]

I'm sure it's all a misunderstanding. Once vonGotsumgold is cleared of any wrongdoing, all his precious metal will be returned to him.

Right?

Nah... they'll conclude the property itself committed the crime of laundering. The War on Gold will be more analogous to the War on Drugs than most people now think possible.

[The FBI]

"I wake up THIS MORNING to find a badly written email about an FBI raid in my inbox. I'm just saying...this seems weird, and I'd like to get some more info."

Don't worry- we'll be by soon to explain it all to you.

[jmklein]

lol, they could have just let the LD continue existing under the radar, but now their going to a have a huge public kangaroo trial.

[Mark Rushmore]

"If we assume total confidence in the convertibility of paper Liberty Dollars -- snicker, snicker..."

Converted your FRNs lately, have ya?

[Wait, what?]

I agree with Democratic Republican. We still don't even really know what happened yet. Cut the conspiracy crap and wait to see if these dudes weren't actually trying to fleece their customers.

[sage]

BTW, two tons of gold @800/oz = $46M USD.

Now I see why the FBI was so interested.

[squarooticus]

When is someone going to blink? Screwing with gold owners is probably not the best idea, since in this day and age gold owners correlate well with gun owners. Then again, the smart ones got the actual bullion or otherwise put their assets beyond the reach of the Feds.

[joshua corning]

Does this effect the value of World of Warcraft gold holdings?

[Ska]

I'm more disgusted that the $CAN is trading higher than the $US.

However using the Big Mac price index, burgers are cheaper in the US than the UK.

Yeah. That's right. Enjoy this mind-blowing post.

[Ryan]

Brian - don't you read the other posts? Put that warrant up at wikileaks!

[Mangelo]

This country is begging for a 2nd American Revolution.

[Bingo]

How will this effect the value of my bling? I might have to start hanging a diamond-encrusted euro symbol around my neck instead of a platinum $.

[Bingo]

Ska:
Soon we'll have border-hopping canadians taking advantage of our fast food dollar menus!

[The Democratic Republican]

Sage -- The problem is that all of the news stories are linking back to the email sent by the owner.

[creech]

C'mon, the real reason he was arrested was for driving a 1999 Cadillac deville, for gawdsakes.

[FZappa]

One point of a byzantine, enormous legal system is that the state can find something to harass, destroy, or imprison virtually anyone they want to. Madison warned against it, so did Ayn Rand.

We're there. If the U.S. Gubmint wants to put Liberty Dollar out of business -- and they do, because LD cuts in on their money racket -- they can. And, it appears, are in the process of.

If there's a word besides "tyranny" for this, let me know.

[LibertyPlease]

This country is begging for a 2nd American Revolution.

Agreed.

[Mangelo]

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/15/liberty-dollar-office-raided/

Link to the Evansville Courier a hometown newspaper for the Liberty Dollar Business.

[Warren]

Then again, the smart ones got the actual bullion or otherwise put their assets beyond the reach of the Feds.

Piffle. To get "beyond the reach of the Feds" you'd have to put your assets in an Afghani cave.

[rho]

I agree with Democratic Republican. We still don't even really know what happened yet. Cut the conspiracy crap and wait to see if these dudes weren't actually trying to fleece their customers.

I'm not opposed to jumping the gun, but why do you think you'll be getting the full and correct story from the Feds?

The LD folks may have been doing something illegal, but that doesn't make it wrong.

[squarooticus]

Piffle. To get "beyond the reach of the Feds" you'd have to put your assets in an Afghani cave.

Okay, *reasonably* beyond the reach of the Feds. I'd like to see the US government try to seize all the gold in London, for instance. Really: I think it would be instructive, no matter what the outcome.

[Kwix]

Good one Warren.

[Malto Dextrin]

It might be interesting if the Liberty Dollar folks allowed convertibility into Second Life's Linden dollars, and into other alternate currencies. Avoid the FRNs completely, just trade around them.

The Gisele Bundchen approach.

Hmmm.....maybe some of the Liberty Dollars should be struck with her likeness on them.

[iih]

I am not worried about this harming Ron Paul. If anything, if RP can explain it well in debates or interviews, it could be an opportunity to show the ridiculousness of the whole think.

[T]

Pretty soon, all we'll have left to trade will be barbs.

Some of the folks around here will be wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice when that happens.

And since when is driving an 8 year old car a sign that you're a shrewd tax-dodging money manipulator? Unless FBI agents are so stupid they think driving around a car worth (generously) 10K is impressive.

[NH]

SO now we're not allowed to own silver or gold? Doesn't that make millions of us criminals?

[Market Money]

"If we assume total confidence in the convertibility of paper Liberty Dollars -- snicker, snicker..."

Converted your FRNs lately, have ya?

Well, you can use FRNs to buy silver or gold or anything else (euros, pounds, yen). The solidity of the FRN is another issue.

Ultimately the value of any money is determined by the market (yes, excessive printing will affect the market price).

[Craig]

It's funny (or not funny) that the warrant story mentions money laundering and mail fraud, and not tax evasion, if that's the real threat/illegality going on. (It also makes you wonder how much better people think things would be with the "Fair" Tax.)

Why conduct undercover operations to determine the legality of the Liberty Dollar? Why not just hold a public hearing? If some people are indeed laundering money or evading taxes with Liberty Dollars, how does that make all Liberty Dollars complicit in the crime(s)?

I guess the paper bills should have had a disclaimer: Unlike Federal Reserve Notes, this note is backed by ____ ounces of silver, unless the silver backing the note is seized by the government first, for competing with their unbacked currency.

[furbygate]

Liberty Dollars -- or real gold and silver coins --- end the inflation tax imposed by the government and big banks. If your "money" buys more each year unlike the FRN which buys less each year -- why would anyone ever support FRNs as their money... this is the big fear of the banker backed government.

[droogy]

Here's an email I got from Liberty Dollars about the raid:
Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.

For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts.

We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money.

But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken.

This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too.

The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people’s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form.

I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions.

Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don’t let this happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal ??" to return America to a value based currency.

Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.

]-->

Please click HERE to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back!

If the above link does not work you can access the page by copying the following into your web browser. http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php

Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and their dollar sinks to a new low.

Bernard von NotHaus

Monetary Architect

[rp4Prez]

Anyone who is classified by the government or described by the media(?) as being "a threat to
stabilization efforts in [the war on] Iraq" can and -- especially in light of this multi-million dollar FBI/SS raid on Liberty Dollar -- SHALL have property seized by the G-men. This is real, and here is the legal basis:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_Property_of_Certain_Persons_Who_Threaten_Stabilization_Efforts_in_Iraq

You know, I really liked the way the Peace Dollar said "Stop the War" on the reverse...sorry, I digressed.

I wonder how much clearer it will have to get before America wakes up!! The Constitution is all we have left, so remind every Patriotic friend that this battle not only must be fought, but also won...Write your elected officials, all of them and highlight this travesty of justice. If they react accordingly, then we might even pitch in to get them re-elected. Now do we have their attention?

[What\'s the frequency, Kenneth]

"$20 US is $20 US." Which is also a sheet of linen with ink on it, and nothing more, by definition.

...and a $20 liberty is an ounce of silver...

[John-David]

Somewhere, Bunker Hunt is laughing his ass off.

[sage]

Wow, droogy, that sucks. There are two equally plausible explanations. One is that vonMetalbeard is telling the truth. The other is that he's just bilked a bunch of people out of millions.

Either way, if true, it's a sad day.

[One Angry Patriot]

"Who wants to buy silver at $20 per troy ounce anyway?"

Who wants to pay $21.95 for an American Silver Eagle from the US Mint?

http://catalog.usmint.gov/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&categoryId=13738&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=10191&top_category=10191

[Syphax]

Finally some more info, an audio interview with a Liberty Dollar cofounder:

http://www.chrisbrunner.com/2007/11/15/liberty-dollar-raided-by-fbi-and-secret-service-co-founder-confirms/

[grumpy realist]

Ummm....do we have, in fact, any evidence that such a raid in fact occurred? If all the so-called "news reports" are simply pointing back to the very same email sent out by one individual, I'm gonna be suspicious. With the sort of crowd that would purchase these things, you can blame ANYTHING on the feds and they believe it, wholeheartedly.

[John]

This is totally bazaar. I've been scouring the net for main stream news on this and there is nothing. So if this really happened, something is rather fishy about the it. Usually something of this scale would surely catch their attention.

[Market Money]

Who wants to pay $21.95 for an American Silver Eagle from the US Mint?

You don't have to. You can go to a private coin or currency dealer and buy junk bullion coins or silver bars.

Good questions about whether the raid happened. Has any word come out of the J. Edgar Hoover Building ?

[Market Money]

...and a $20 liberty is an ounce of silver...

If it's a medallion, yes.

[thedifferentphil]

Buying one of these Liberty Dollars is an interesting collectible. Buying more than one under the misguided idea that a $14 silver medal is somehow worth more than an Andrew Jackson should disqualify you from reading a magaizine called "Reason." Is a Liberty dollar worth more or less than a $20 FRN? Well, the Liberty Dollar people are happy to trade you as many as you want at that rate, so there we have our answer.

[tarran]

So, thedifferentphil,

Quick question? Do you grow all your own food?

Because I don't see how you could survive if you're avoiding the rip-off artists at the supermarket who offer to sell you food that they think is worth less than the price they want you to pay...

[Kevin Parker]

"I've been scouring the net for main stream news on this and there is nothing."

Maybe they took all that metal and moved to some gulch somewhere. Anybody seen T.J. Rodgers or John Mackey lately? 😉

[John-David]

"Heroes Health Card"? I like Richardson, but hello new entitlement. Do I really need to bitchslap him and tell him that military service is a contract, and you can't change the rules of the contract after it has been fulfilled?

[John-David]

Shit, wrong thread. Sorry.

[Kenny]

tarran-
I think 2ndphil's point is that why would you buy carrots at $20 a bushel when most supermarkets you have access to are selling it for $14 a bushel.

[Market Money]

Good Lord, now we're going to get into carrot-based commodity money !

[Michael]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned a possible Ponzi Scheme:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

I don't know enough about LD, but don't be too quick to blame the government. Something does sound a little out of whack here.

[rp4Prez]

There is nothing "Ponzi" about the intrinsic value of beautiful, precious metals-based tokens that are literally worth their weight...and oftentimes more, as the dollar's value declines.

[R C Dean]

And then if you "buy" a DVD marked at $20 USD at a local store with a $20 LD, you have realized a gain

Not a taxable gain, though. I don't believe trading anyhting for a DVD is a realization event. Still, the Internal Revenue Code is a big place, so YMMV.

[B. Bunny]

Good Lord, now we're going to get into carrot-based commodity money

Woiks for me, doc.

[NH]

We all know why they did this.
I don't care if it's plastic -- they had no right to steal these assets.
How can you all not see this as more serious than you do?

They are trying to take the assets of those they perceive to be part of the 'revolution' against the central banks, and those who would donate on Dec 16th.
And now that have our names, all of us.

Smells like Nazi Germany to me.

[Wolfgang]

Smells like the SS to me too.

[sage]

There is nothing "Ponzi" about the intrinsic value of beautiful, precious metals-based tokens that are literally worth their weight...and oftentimes more, as the dollar's value declines.

I wonder how much of that paper money he had in circulation? The silver and gold are worth their weight, no doubt. Even if I decided to try using LDs, I never would have gone for the paper stuff.

[Ron]

NH "SO now we're not allowed to own silver or gold? Doesn't that make millions of us criminals?"

It happened in 1933 -April 5 - One month after his inauguration President Roosevelt ordered all gold coins, gold bullion, and gold certificates to be turned into the Federal Reserve banks by May 1st under the threat of imprisonment and fines. It was a national confiscation of gold and silver.

June 5 - Congress enacted a joint resolution, that all gold clauses in contracts were outlawed and no one could legally demand gold in payment for any obligation due to him.

1934 - The Gold Reserve Act of 1934 officially prohibited private persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction from holding gold for monetary purposes. It became illegal for U.S. citizens to own gold! The old standard was officially dead.

Not until December 1974 U.S. were citizens once again allowed to own gold.

[Heather Lewis]

How would you like it if you purchased something of value and had it kept for safe keeping in a vault of the seller and the government, with no due process as is gauranteed to you by the constitution, came and confiscated it. That is exactly what has happened. We are given the right of due process by the constitution to protect our property from unlawful seizure by the government and they just shit all over it and used it for toilet paper.

Next they will be kicking down your door and taking your cigarettes at gun point because they pose a fire hazard!

Wake up and smell the burnt ashes of dead bodies before it is to late!

Aloha nui loa!

[Kenny]

LD filed suit against the U.S. Treasury because they issued a letter to all of his RCO's (Regional Currency Offices) warning that exchanging LD's was a crime. LD has a letter from the Fed posted on their web site stating that there is no law that prohibits their activity.

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/legalissues.htm

LD face values are not based on the spot price of gold and silver just as Federal currency when it was on a standard. The spot price on a commodity such as silver is based on "junk" value. Coins such as the Krugerrand and American Eagle have value as collectables and investments. Even though Von Nothaus is encouraging buyers to circulate his product it yields value beyond the spot price.

The warrant and other links are posted at the LD home page:

http://www.libertydollar.org

[Kenny]

This is LD side of the legal argument asserting thier right to exchange:

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/press-kit/usmint-allegations.htm

[Julian Fondren]

If all the so-called "news reports" are simply pointing back to the very same email sent out by one individual,

RTFA.

[Clarence]

As far as the wondering whether this actually happened...

The articles (which are all over the net now, and in some newspapers) all mention the raid on the Evansville office. However, Bernard's email also mentioned that the silver that backed LD certificates and digital LD was confiscated from the warehouse in Idaho where it is (was) stored.

I spoke with a person at the Sunshine Mint today, who confirmed that all of the Silver Libertys being held there in a safekeeping account had been carted away by representative of the US government.

[antonio]

F****ing, mo***f**ngg SOBs!!!
They got my Ron Paul coppers, I can now literally say that the government has stolen from me by any logical definition (not just taxes).

Oh well, my RonPaul silver dollars just quadripled in price over at e-bay. Take that lyin' killin' stealin' Uncle Sam!

[Julian Fondren]

I can now literally say that the government has stolen from me by any logical definition

My jaw dropped when the TV news came out about the raid on David Copperfield's place, and talking head after talking head (with one exception: the lady prosecutor/judge that Fox News always has on) had not even the slightest hint of a problem with the FBI's theft of millions of USD in cash. Some raised eyebrows at David Copperfield, but otherwise nothing.

When I'd expect, at the very least, a moderated "... and I also have it in that the FBI found and seized $bignumber in cash -- wait, what the fuck? What does cash have to do with an alleged rape from months ago?"

Validation of a suggestion of a H&R reasonoid: in this country, you should just expect that a LEO will steal from you if you have 'too much' cash on hand.

[Barnabas Collins]

Yes, cops routinely take large amounts from travelers all the time, something I've been railing against for a few years now.

Doesn't this go against the whole idea that the currency is legal tender for all debts, etc.? What I mean is, are only smaller amounts of cash for transactions legal, but anything in cash over say $10,000 is automatically not just suspect, but criminal, and can be seized without any due process?

[nickelist]

A "silver liberty" costs $20 and contains maybe $15 worth of metal.

But a nickel costs 5 cents and contains more than 6 cents worth of metal! Plus you can deposit it in the bank and not get raided by the FBI!

Screw the liberty dollar! GO NICKELS!

[Heather Lewis]

There are laws against unlawful seizure of property which allow for the offending agency's and their agents, to be held personally and financially responsible. To the tune of $10,000 per day for as many days as they posses the property with out due process (that is without trial by jury in case you don't know).

I suggest that each and every person that has had their property stolen, begin doing their research and filing private lawsuits against the agencies and the agents involved. Their names, and addresses are on the Liberty Dollar website.

Fight them with the laws that were created to protect us. The laws are there you just have to look for them.

Get the information for the attorney who is representing the Liberty Dollar. I am sure they have knowledge of our legal rights!

Fight Back!

[joe]

Thanks, Shannon, I get it now.

It's not the legal status, but the universality of the usage that makes something currency, and the legal status of the US dollar is just a means of making it universal.

RC Dean,

No, not over a long period of time, but at the time of any particular transation, a twenty is worth, to both parties, $20 US.

[robc]

joe,

Actually, sometimes even the value of FRNs varies, even at the of a particular transaction. For example, at a strip club I might trade a $20 FRN for 20 $1 FRNs. This is because, at that particular point in time, the $1 FRNs are worth more than 5% of a single $20.

[robc]

that is supposed to say "even at the time of a".

[Ska]

Robc - it's not the intrinsic value that increased, just the marketability.

But there is a point to that too - how much is a $20 LD worth when I go to a vendor that won't accept it? Yeah, nothing.

[joe]

Ska,

There are people here who don't believe in the concept of intrinsic value - who believe that an item does not have a value until one is agreed upon by a buyer and a seller.

[cduffy]

The meek will inherit the world with sticks and rocks as the new currency.

[R C Dean]

There are people here who don't believe in the concept of intrinsic value - who believe that an item does not have a value until one is agreed upon by a buyer and a seller.

Count me as one of those. Value is an abstraction, it exists only in our heads.

Of course, I also believe that money is a consensual hallucination.

[DCP]

What about in Massachusetts there are towns that use their own currency called the BerkShares note... How legal is it to print your own paper money currency or notes??? What about travelors checks... Interesting!!! http://www.boston.com/business/ticker/2007/06/alternate_curre.html

[Kenny]

If two consenting people want to exchange a pile of dog crap for a product, service, or FRN's there is nothing in the Constitution I have found that prohibits such activity. This is why barter exchanges and local currencies exist in the U.S. today. American Express has a barter exchange.

The difference here is someone has come up with a medium (Liberty's) of exchange that exposes the inflation tax created by FRN's or any fiat currency for that matter. Most people don't understand the history of "good" and "bad" money i.e Gresham's Law and have a hard time grasping the idea of trading anything other than FRN's. The idea behind FRN's is that this fiat currency can be issued and extracted by a small group of so called monetary experts under the guise of economic stability. This has provided our Congress since 1913 and other government leaders the ability to deficit spend with little accountability. Not to mention given the international "Money Changers" as Madison termed, carte blanche over the worlds nations and economies.

For those who have not already seen it I recommend:

http://www.themoneymasters.com

[kevrob]

Let's say that you bought some gold back when the dollar was redeemable @ 1 troy oz. = US$20.00, or somebody paid you with a $20.00 gold coin. You have managed to hold onto said gold through the FDR confiscation and subsequent relegalization, and you now want to sell it at the going rate. ($800/oz., for the purpose of the argument.)

Will not the IRS demand that you claim $780 as income, even though, adjusted for inflation, you made no profit on the sale? They would do the same for any other good held long-term, with only the long-term treatment of capital gains to partially shield you from a full tax hit, right?

BTW, it is untrue that the IRS turns a blind eye to barter. If a dentist swaps services with his local contractor (set of braces for a kitchen remodel, frex) both will have to pay tax on the value of what they receive if they are found out.

Bastards.

Kevin