Reading: Still Fundamental

As the Week of Ron Paul comes to a close, here's the episode of David All and Jerome Armstrong's DomeNation that was filmed right after Thursday's press conference.

Also, like I mentioned in my column today, Paul is on Bill Maher's HBO show tonight at 11 p.m. ET/PT.

Comments

[Anntink]

A true Republican; hope you win, Ron Paul! You have my vote.

[Brian]

Very awesome. RP in '08!

[stephen the goldberger]

He did a good job hitting his talking points. The whole "Rudy should read this" angle seems a little smug at this point but that's because i've been watching his campaign closer than most "republicans." I dont know what dome nation is and i have a feeling anybody who bothers to watch it knows who RP is but whatever. Exposure is good.

[Pepe]

America was asking for it with those short skirts she's always wearing.

[The Great Jonathan Hohenseeini]

Gazing into my crystal ball, I see into the future. Tonight, now that everyone views Paul as a maverick among the Republican party, Maher will suck up to Paul instead of asking jack-assy questions about Paul's insane beliefs. Looking further, I see the possibliity of Maher giving himself a hand job for considering himself a liberterian.

[jpok]

He's already been calling Ron Paul his own hero. I think this is the clip: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5OeeevXtlDY

Yeah, Maher's a douchebag.

[AlmightyJB]

Rock on Ron Paul

[Kwix]

stephen the goldberger,
It may be smug, but it is getting him media attention, and not the "fringe, nutso" kind either.

[SxCx]

Whether he's succeeds or not, it's frankly just cool to hear somebody saying this shit on television.

I felt libertarian before I knew any of the characters or ideology. All I hope for Ron is that his fifteen minutes nudges a few people along the road.

[tarran]

What a sweet old man he is. Seriously.

[jf]

I'm really wishing I still had HBO right now so I could see Dr. Paul get better treatment than his last appearance. I guess I'll be hanging around youtube tomorrow morning until the clip is posted.

[Ruthless]

Not to be Karl Rove or anything, but it's time to move beyone Rudy. That asshole would have self-destructed anyway, even if this may not be the actual beginning of his self-destruction.

[Brett]

P.J. O'Rourke is on Maher tonight as well. I don't usually watch that show, but will have to tonight.

[joe]

Ron Paul as Jean Bart.

Mayor Guiliani, I suggest you read these books before you embarrass yourself further.

[joe]

Ruthless, as a partisan Democrat, my only hope is that Rudy can hold off his Macaca moment until after he gets the nomination.

I'm betting on "scream at a 19 year old intern until she cries, on camera," but really, the possibilities are endless.

[Ruthless]

joe,
As a non-partisan peaceful anarchist, we could do much much worse than Obama.
It would be a cleansing experience for the nation.

[jf]

Ruthless, as a partisan Democrat, my only hope is that Rudy can hold off his Macaca moment until after he gets the nomination.

I'm betting on "scream at a 19 year old intern until she cries, on camera," but really, the possibilities are endless.

I'd say that's the front-runner for "comment of the year". If Rudy gets the Republican nomination, I can only hope the Dems nominate someone actually competent, because Rudy will at some point implode and lose in a Mondale-esque fashion.

[joe]

Oh, man, think of the concession speech!

Remember when he just couldn't help insulting Boston and San Diego as he gave his farewell speech as mayor?

[Jonathan Hohensee]

Oh, and Michael Moore is a douchebag too.

[Jonathan Hohensee]

One thing that annoys me the most about Maher is the hard-on he has against food. 90% of people are sick because of junk food?

[Kris]

Mayor Guiliani, I suggest you read these books before you embarrass yourself further.

Damn you joe!

Beat me to the punch.

Bastard 🙂

[jf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQplVsQJ27A

About one minute in I swear Paula Zahn refers to "Juan Paul".

[dead_elvis]

Remember when he just couldn't help insulting Boston and San Diego as he gave his farewell speech as mayor?

I don't remember it, but I just looked up a transcript online. I'm not sure where I see the insult. He trots out a bunch of statistics, which is as always a suspect strategy (insert usual joke about statistics here), but I don't see any insults. Just "the way *I* interpret the statistics, our policing seems to work better, statistically", not "Moms in San Diego are putas, and the Boston Red Sox suck my dick!"

[Dave]

So Paul has now decided that his candidacy is going to be "Ron Paul: I'm the guy who thinks we kinda asked for it". This is the thing that he has decided to make himself known for. Not tax cuts, not eminent domain, not the use of imaginary non-constitutional powers. The "libertarian" candidate is going to make sure the world knows what libertarians stand for is pointing out that if the US would just not involve itself with the world, maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened. Beautiful.

[jf]

Dave,

I was just about to go to bed when I saw your comment. Since I've giving out awards on this thread, I decided to make a special one just for you.

I call it the "WAY TO MISS THE FUCKING POINT ASSHOLE" award.

I hope you are proud of your accomplishment.

[Drew]

Ron was great on Real Time. If any of you support Ron then stop just saying that you support him and start donating money to his campaign and convincing others to donate. If you're waiting for a miracle to occur it isn't going to happen. Get to work!

[Guy Montag]

OT: The president signed the first thing close to a decent aupplimental war funding bill. The Congress was only 109 days late delivering it.

[JLM]

"So Paul has now decided that his candidacy is going to be "Ron Paul: I'm the guy who thinks we kinda asked for it"."

He was on that show because Maher wanted to talk to him about his foreign policy views, and he wasn't really given a chance to talk about much else. Do you really think that Bill Maher, who just got done cleaning Michael Moore's shit off his nose, gives a damn about anything else a libertarian like Ron Paul has to say? The last time Paul was on this show, all Maher wanted to do was pick on him about his views on the Civil War. Real issues barely came up.

[X New-Yawker]

A smug liberal like Bill Maher will never see the irony of hammering Ron Paul for making the case that the Civil War wasn't really about slavery while getting giddy about Paul making the case that 9/11 wasn't really about attacking "our way of life".

[Paul Davis]

Here is the HBO clip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vEkjPkXHSEw

[Randolph Carter]

Anyone else think that Ben Affleck came off as mildly retarded? There were a few minutes where I thought he was going to say "Those fucking fucks! They keep fucking with the fucking fuckers and get fucked every fucking time."

[Gimme Back My Dog]

RC,

Actually, I went into the show thinking that Ben Affleck was mildly retarded, but not after the show. He seemed well informed and obviously was very passionate about the issues.

Even his loss for words at the end with his rant against the Democratic party showed an ability for political analysis that goes beyond "Democrats good, Republicans bad".

[Aybe Sea]

Dr. Paul's gotta be careful to keep ammo in reserve for later in this (too damned long) campaign cycle.

What a President Paul would do with the IRS is a nice campaign salvo. But now's not the time to launch it in earnest. Save it for later, preferably in response to one of the other candidates making the standard noises about taxes and taxation.

In fact, in my opinion, for the rest of this year the Paul campaign oughta make a point out of using statements made by other candidates as prompts. Prompts where Dr Paul will illustrate the many ways that his candidacy differs from those of the fanged liberals who now hold sway in the GOP.

First the product differentiation, then the sell.

[Randolph Carter]

true, I did respect him a little more for the ideas he expressed, it was more the way he expressed them that made me laugh.

[Jon C Jackson 3]

As far as Maher talking about people eating shit making them sick, apparently the point was missed. He was basically telling Moore that people need to be personally responsible for their health. As I've said before here, one can oppose the food police without opposing the idea that being healthy actually matters. Maher can't win- he gets criticized for opposing Moore and adding an element of personal responsibility ( note he didnt say McDonalds is making people sick, he said people are making THEMSELVES sick). ok.

As far as ROn Paul. I thought he did well and he talked about what he was supposed to talk about without getting into any fringe issues and making himself look bad. Hell, he even got in an ambiguous line about healthcare when he was saying the US should earn respect by working on things here and restore civil liberties,etc.

People care about the WAR and things like that. There is no point going on TV rambling about the Gold standard or something. I think its pretty good when a Libertarian can go on a liberal show and talk about Ending the War while mentioning civil liberties, healthcare, while being honest, humorous- and receiving applause and good feedback.

[stephen the goldberger]

ron paul def seemed out of his element. I think he realized no one in the audience, maher included, really understands who he is or what he is about. Also the constant ego massaging by maher seemed to make him uncomfortable. All and all though a good performance, hopefully gets people to think at the very least, and check out who he is.

[ND]

Here's a longer, better quality clip that has Affleck and O'Rourke making fun of Rudy after Paul leaves.

[David All]

Wiegel -

Thanks for the link and cool to see you over the past few days.

We'll have another episode up after the Holiday w/ Ron Paul's communications director, Jesse Benton, that speaks directly to Paul's impressive use of technology to help level the playing field.

Stay connected, always,

David All
http://youtube.com/domenation

[Brinck Slattery]

Hey everyone, I just got involved in the Ron Paul's campaign in an official capacity for Fairfield County, CT. If you are from the area (or not) and would like to offer your time and/or money, contact me at the e-mail address on my name also visit hier for the Fairfield County meetup group. This guy's the real deal for libertarians, so let's support him!

PS sorry but I'm going to post this on a bunch of threads - it's really important that people take their support from the internets to their REAL LIVES and do something for liberty!

[Anthony Gregory]

Thank goodness for Ron Paul. He is reversing a lot of the damage done by pro-war "libertarians" who have confused everyone by suggesting you can oppose aggression, central planning, and big government and yet support the worst government program of them all.

And if you think 9/11 would have just as likely happened sans US interventionism, you're probably hopeless.

[tarran]

I wish people would stop using the term "pro-war libertarian" because it is internally inconsistent.

The proper term is "aggressive war-socialist." There isn't anything libertarian about it.

[Guy Montag]

terran,

So one is either an "aggressive war-socialist" or a surrender monkey?

Earlier on reason Ron Paul told us he was all for Israel attacking Iraq when Iraq had no means to attack Israel.

Sounds like his idea of when war is wrong for America is when someone besides him orders the troops out.

[Guy Montag]

Oh, watch out terran! the US is expanding its 'aggressive war-socialism' to Lebanon! US supply planes are landing there every day with military hardware for their 'aggressive war' against those poor, innocent 'palistinians' in their sad little refugee camp.

OOooooo! Scaaary!

[highnumber]

Where is Mr Steven Crane with his 409 when you need him?

[Rick Barton]

Guy Montag:

Earlier on reason Ron Paul told us he was all for Israel attacking Iraq when Iraq had no means to attack Israel.

What he said was, is that Israel (the Israeli government) attacking Iraqo is to be prefered to us (our government) attacking Iraq, not that Isreal attacking Iraq was meritorious in its self.

[Rick Barton]

Guy Montag:

...are landing there every day with military hardware for their 'aggressive war' against those poor, innocent 'palistinians' in their sad little refugee camp.

The Palestinian refugees aren't the target of this action, in which our government is foolishly and unethically participating. Very few, perhaps only one, of those fighters are even Palestinian.

That and other Palestinian refugee camps exist cuz of shameful aggression by the Israeli government, in which our government has foolishly and unethically participated.

As Ron Paul observed, 9/11 is among the blowback resulting from such foolishness.

I'd certainly rather be governed by Dr. Paul, or someone with like principles, than the most well intentioned, most benevolent person on Earth. And if that most well intentioned, most benevolent person on Earth ever came to understand those principles and the ramifications of those principles put into action, he/she too would support Ron Paul's election

[Grand Chalupa]

The Palestinian refugees aren't the target of this action, in which our government is foolishly and unethically participating. Very few, perhaps only one, of those fighters are even Palestinian.

That and other Palestinian refugee camps exist cuz of shameful aggression by the Israeli government, in which our government has foolishly and unethically participated.

As Ron Paul observed, 9/11 is among the blowback resulting from such foolishness.

In case you missed it, the Israeli government's "aggression" is the result of being surrounded by a hundred million people who want them dead and living with a people who voted for a goverment that doesn't recognize their right to exist.

Ron Paul says we were attacked because we had been bombing Iraq for ten years. No one mentions in this blind worship of him that it was to stop genocide of the Kurds. Excuse us for standing in the way of the desire of the Arabs to exterminate their neighbors.

[Rick Barton]

Grand Chalupa,

You sound the Fox News foreign policy deception team. The occupation of the West Bank is hardly a defensive move against these "a hundred million people who want them dead". What a curious defensive parameter it is into which a government inserts civilians! Looks rather more like theft. And with the Wall, the theft is even more transparent. The wall snakes around so as to steal prime olive orchards from Palestinian families who have owned them for generations. What a shame it is that the government gives our tax dollars to the Israeli government for this outrage. Now why might they hate us?

...and living with a people who voted for a government that doesn't recognize their right to exist.

The Israeli government are the ones who have denied the right, and made it impossible, for a bonafied Palestinian State to exist. And you seem to have spaced, or were never aware, that the Israeli government was instrumental in bringing Hamas to prominence cuz they sought a quieter religious alternative to the PLO. Now that's blowback!

No one mentions in this blind worship of him that it was to stop genocide of the Kurds.

It's not "blind worship". It's admiration of his adherence to a good principle-something that's tragically rare in these times among the governing folks. Also, much of the blood spilled by Sadam was financed by U.S. tax dollars. This is exactly an illustration of what Dr Paul has been saying about the harm done by our government's interventionist foreign policy.

[Guy Montag]

Rick Barton,

You sound like one of those Carter types who want the Jews to march into the sea on their own, rather than being pushed there by their agressive neighbors, but if their agressive neighbors go ahead and do it a strongly worded telegram and a couple of boycotts will teach them a lesson.

[highnumber]

BUBBLES!

[joe]

Do you Ron Paul supporters think he would actually be an effective president, in his role as commander in chief and head of the executive branch, while moving a practical legislative agenda that actually succeeds in advancing his political agenda?

Or is he basically a protest candidate, who'd spend four years failing to abolish Social Security and the Dept. of Educaiton in their entirety, while throwing rhetorical stink bombs?

[Rick Barton]

Guy,

"March into the sea on their own," Certainly not. I just want the Israelis to march out of occupied Palestine, as defined by the 67' boundaries. This, btw, is a position that polls have found that a majority of Israelis advocate...I wonder if the neocons will now accuse the Israeli public of anti-Semitism...

[tarran]

Joe, While not a Ron Paul supporter (he is too statist for my tastes), since I would love to see him win the next election, I'll take a stab at your question.

First, I don't think Ron Paul has a significant chance of winning the primary elections. He's so far from the status quo that most people will not be willing to take the risk.

However, if he plays his cards right, he could pull it off and become the Republican party's presidential candidate. If that were to happen, I expect that the Republicans would lose the election much the same way McGovern lost to Nixon. I think the dynamic would be pretty much the same.

But, again, Ron Paul taps into the origin myths of the United States, so it is possible he could move people to vote for him, or the Democratic candidate could be caught in bed with a live boy or something, and Ron Paul would win the presidency.

Here's where it gets interesting. Ron Paul is quite stubborn. It's one thing to refuse to vote for unconstitutional laws. It's another thing to refuse to enforce them.

I strongly would expect that Ron Paul would begin acting somewhat unilaterally and would defy Congress. It would not just take the form of vetoing every bit of legislation that crossed his desk. I can see him folding his arms and refusing to actually act on those laws after his veto was overridden.

This would create an interesting dynamic. The vast bureaucracy of Federal Employees would begin to fight him. It is possible that they would try to administer programs that they had been told not to. In the meantime Congress would be looking to impeach him. The Supreme Court, who does not have a constitutionally-grounded power of final say on Constitutionality of laws would be enraged that the president stepped on their turf.

I think Ron Paul would be impeached and stripped of his office within 6 months of inauguration, followed shortly by his VP if the VP does not play ball. Then we would have the speaker of the house becoming president.

That's my prediction, and it is worth every cent that you paid for it. 🙂

[Grand Chalupa]

Rick Barton,

Here's an article as to why it would be suicide for Israel to do what you reccomend..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071301667.html

There is not a shred of evidence that a Palestinian state would be anything more then a Jew killing training camp.

I don't know what else the Palestinians could possibly do to lose your confidence in their ability to form any kind of state. Dress their children up as suicide bombers? Elect a terrorist orginization? Fight a civil war after the hated Israelis withdrawl? Dance on their roofs after 9/11? Be generously accepted by the Kuwait royal family and then celebrate when Saddam Hussein takes over their country?

Most times greivances are about rational issues that can be adressed. Other times, like the Palestinian/Israeli issue, one side is simply so filled with hate and has such a destructive culture that any kind of mutual coexistence is impossible.

[tarran]

Oh, watch out terran! the US is expanding its 'aggressive war-socialism' to Lebanon! US supply planes are landing there every day with military hardware for their 'aggressive war' against those poor, innocent 'palistinians' in their sad little refugee camp.

OOooooo! Scaaary!

ROFL. I can just see Guy rocking back and forth, muttering, his fingers slipping on the spittle-slicked keys as he hammered that gem out.

Good job comrade, you really made me look foolish. 😉

[Rick Barton]

joe,

Even If all Ron Paul could do was utilize the veto, there would be significant progress toward liberty.

[Lowdog]

Wow Chalupa, you seem to be as blindingly prejudiced against Palestinians as you are accusing Rick (and most likely me now) of being about Jews.

I would also like to know what your thoughts are on why the Palestinians might be so mad at the Israelis.

I agree with Rick and Dr Paul on this blowback theory stuff.

[Grand Chalupa]

I would also like to know what your thoughts are on why the Palestinians might be so mad at the Israelis.

Well, we all know anti-semetism throughout its history has never been unjustified.

Books have been written about anti-semetism and why it is so prevelant in so many plances. You either have got to believe that Jews are evil and deserve it, or as I do, that people often have irrational hate due to feelings of inferiority and avoidance of responsibility.

This doesn't help either....

"The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him"

[Rick Barton]

Grand Chalupa,

Krauthammer says nothing to justify the occupation of Palestine as a defensive zone cuz actual defensive zones aren't used by governments to move civilian populations into.

The evidence is that the occupation was intended as land theft, going back for at least 35 years:

Note that when Winston S. Churchill III in 1973 asked Ariel Sharon: "What is to become of the Palestinian's land?" Sharon answered: "We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We'll insert a strip of Jewish settlement, in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in twenty-five years time, neither the United Nations, nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart."

The Israeli government has never bargained in good faith.

[Rick Barton]

Grand Chalupa:

There is not a shred of evidence that a Palestinian state would be anything more then a Jew killing training camp.

That ridiculous statement would mean that Israel is nothing but a Palestinian killing military outpost.

Dress their children up as suicide bombers? Elect a terrorist orginization?

There have been more Palestinian children killed since the last intifada than the total number of Israeli civilians. Terrorism is the victimization of innocent civilians. The Israeli government/military is a major terrorist organization and the Palestinian people are its victims. U.S taxpayers shouldn't be paying for it.

Now Grand Chalupa, do you not think that it would be fairer, and more practical for us if we were not forced to pay for the occupation.

[Rick Barton]

Grand Chalupa:

Other times, like the Palestinian/Israeli issue, one side is simply so filled with hate and has such a destructive culture that any kind of mutual coexistence is impossible.

What?? Even if that dismal perspective was true, it's the occupation that forces cohabitation.

You either have got to believe that Jews are evil and deserve it,..

As if the Palestinians just have a bad case of anti-Jewish racism and their animosity has nothing to do with the ethnic cleansing that they were subjected to upon the founding of the Israeli state (Remember the Right of Return? It has yet to be honored) and the brutal occupation of the land given to them at the time by the British Mandate (Mandatory Palestine).

Speaking of hate, how can we ecpect the Israeli government to be fair to the Palestinians:

In Israel, whose government always gets more of our tax dollars than any other regime, Sharon actually supported racist "Jews Only" housing laws on government land in open discrimination against Israel's own Arab citizens. This was a bow to the resident fundamentalist Jewish religious nut balls that he made political league with.

or as I do, that people often have irrational hate due to feelings of inferiority and avoidance of responsibility.

This sounds more like you vis a vis the Palestinians, Grand Chalupa.

[Rick Barton]

joe,

Who are you pulling for for prez?

[Rick Barton]

Oops. I wanted to finish this one with a question mark:

Now Grand Chalupa, do you not think that it would be fairer, and more practical for us if we were not forced to pay for the occupation?

[joe]

Rick Barton,

Gore

Richardson

Obama

Dodd

Paul

...are my preferences right now.

[Lowdog]

Chalupa - I've got no love for islamic fundamentalists, or any religious fundamentalists, for that matter. But as Rick has deftly pointed to, it's not like the Israeli government is innocent of any wrong doing. Hence my question as to why Palestinians may have a beef with Israel.

I also agree with Rick that we should not be funding Israel to the extent that we do. Israel is quite happy to tell the US to stuff it, which is a rather odd stance to take with someone who is in many ways keeping your country in tact. I also wonder how many times the Israelis have derailed any attempts at peace. Not that the Palestinians have not done that, either, but let's not be naive here.

[Rick Barton]

joe,

Thanks. No Dennis Kucinich? He's sure good on the Iraq war. I don't know of any other positions of his that I'd be attracted to...except for he's probably anti-Patriot Act, though.

[Grand Chalupa]

This sounds more like you vis a vis the Palestinians, Grand Chalupa.

Lol, you got me. Jelous of the Palestinians, yup.

Let me ask you something. Do the Indians have the right to your house? Unless you're a Native American you weren't here first. If you live in the American southwest, does the government of Mexico have a claim to your house?

Of course people get kicked off their land all the time. Palestinians got kicked off their land 40-50 years ago. When will people stop talking about some mythical right of return of people now three generations removed from what happened? Another 20 years? Another 50? Until every last Palestinian who was alive in 1967 is dead? Or will all future generations get to play the victim?

There were a hundred fifty thousand Jews in Baghdad in 1948. Today there are none.

Why didn't they stay around and become suicide bombers when faced with opression?

Well, first of all, they would've been exterminated because that's the way Arabs, and Iraqis in particular, have dealt with restless minorities.

Second of all, Jews in the Middle East and wherever they've been kicked out of for the last couple thousand years have cared about their children's future more then their hatred of their enemies. The Palestinians, on the other hand, decided their salvation lay in victimhood and fanatacism with their children in addition to the people of Israel being the victims. For that they can rot.

[Grand Chalupa]

Lowdog,

The Israeli government is not totally innocent, but who wouldn't have blood on their hands with agressive neigbors promising to wipe you out and teaching their children to drink your blood?

For you and Rick Barton, show me one example of a people that dresses their children up as suicide bombers over something that happened over a generation ago. I've read about many cultures past and present but have seen nothing like this. Iraqi Kurds, European and Middle Eastern Jews, Sudanese blacks and many others have been through much worse while still maintaing their dignity as human beings.

I think the Palestinians are worthy of unique contempt because the way they've behaved is uniquely contemptible. Show me comparable behavior from others and I will reconsider.

[joe]

Rick,

I like many of Kucinich's position, but here's the complication: unlike you, I actually look for someone who will provide effective goverance.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich? Fine, I'm glad he's there.

President Dennis Kucinich? I don't think so.

[Lowdog]

Chalupa - I can almost agree with your last couple of paragraphs, I just don't think Israel should get a pass because I see them as also quite vicious in their own way. And again, this is not an indictment of your average Israeli citizen, but mostly of their government.

The worst part about it for me is that we suffer blowback because of our relationship with Israel. Of course, in that case, the actions of those in power at an earlier time in this country started that relationship in a very foolish manner, imo.

But at the same time, that doesn't mean that I want Israel to wiped off the map. Hopefully, the nuances of my position can be understood.

[Equality 7-2521]

"unlike you, I actually look for someone who will provide effective goverance."

Please. no. I have had all I can take of "effective governance."

If governance at all, make it as ineffective as possible.

[Guy Montag]

There is not a shred of evidence that a Palestinian state would be anything more then a Jew killing training camp.

There is no shred of evidence that they are anything more than that now, nor at any point after 1947.

BTW, I have no idea why you use a capitol P for them either.

[Rick Barton]

Grand Chalupa:

Do the Indians have the right to your house? Unless you're a Native American you weren't here first.

The Indians were nomadic and didn't have the institution of property and property rights that the Palestinians had. Not to make pretext for what was done to the Indians but that situation is not even close to being equivalent to that of the Palestinians, nor is it anywhere as addressable and remediable.

Of course people get kicked off their land all the time. Palestinians got kicked off their land 40-50 years ago. When will people stop talking about some mythical right of return of people...

The "shit happens" defense is no excuse for those governments who cause and perpetuate the shit. Also, for all the anti-Palestinians-pro occupation views you express, you seem a little fuzzy on the history of the situation. The Right of Return goes back to the ethnic cleansing that accompanied the founding of Israel.

Why didn't they stay around and become suicide bombers when faced with opression?

What?? There were proto-Israelis who were terrorists against the British and the resident Palestinian population. You never heard of the King David hotel that was blown up by the Irgun, that terrorist group that Menachem Begin was in or perhaps even headed? Do some reading, Grand Chalupa.

For you and Rick Barton, show me one example of a people that dresses their children up as suicide bombers over something that happened over a generation ago.

Give me break! The Israeli, and other countries, celebrate military goals and exploits by wrapping up their kids in military pomp and regalia. Also, it's not just something that happened over a generation ago. It's something that continues to happen!

Also, you never answered my question, Grand Chalupa:

Don't you think that it would be fairer, and more practical, for us if we were not forced to pay for the Israeli occupation?

[Rick Barton]

joe:

unlike you, I actually look for someone who will provide effective goverance.

Well, Im glad to find out that you consider Ron Paul as a possibility to provide effective governance. I, like Dr Paul, see less governance as better governance.

[Rick Barton]

Lowdog:

I just don't think Israel should get a pass because I see them as also quite vicious in their own way. And again, this is not an indictment of your average Israeli citizen, but mostly of their government.

Hear! Hear! Or is it Here! Here!?? Seems like they both work. Guess I just coulda said: "What Lowdog said".

[Rick Barton]

Guy Montag:

There is no shred of evidence that they are anything more than that now, nor at any point after 1947.

I know a gal who's from Palestine who is a scientist, and also I have a friend from Palestine (by way of a refugee camp) who is a chess player of considerable strength. Does that change your mind about that ridiculous statement? BTW, I also have a chess buddy from Israel who despises his ex-government's occupation for a number of reasons.

[Anonymous]

It appears that Guy montag and Grand Chalupa learnt their Middle East history from Denis Prager.

There were the Jews minding their own business in the land that G-d gave them when all the ayrabs started moving in from the USA, Europe and Canada and taking over.

Yep that's how it happened alright.

It's a goddamn awful shame that European anti-semitism drove the jews to seek their own "homeland".

And it's a goddamn awful shame that the Palistinians had to lose theirs.

But no number of wrongs will ever add up to making this right.