Immigration

They Took Our Jaaarrrrbs!

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Kerry's post on immigration and abortion is a howler.  But it's still only the second most ridiculous argument I've seen from the anti-immigration camp.

The first still belongs to National Review's Mark Krikorian, or as I like to call him, "all John Derbyshire's bigotry, with none of his charm."  Krikorian complained a couple of years ago that immigrants who take jobs at fast food joints, landscaping companies, and the like are too dependable.  Because they have families to feed and such, they work hard, and they're quite reliable—which makes them more valuable to employers than, for example, native-born, part-time teen workers.  Thus, Krikorian argued, immigrants are stealing a precious right of passage from spoiled American teenagers—the right to half-ass it at your first summer job.

I'm not kidding.

A recent Boston Globe story makes clear that immigrant colonization of the low-skilled job market is not the result of decadent American teenagers opting to shop at the mall rather than work. Quite the opposite—immigrant competition is elbowing teenagers out of jobs they would otherwise be filling. One economist said employers "like the fact that immigrants can work more hours and more shifts than teenagers." A job counselor said "Typically when kids apply for a summer job they might want a week off to go to camp or do something else. I tell them, 'You can't do that. You are up against someone who is going to be there every day and you need to deal with that.'" As a result, the percentage of teenagers holding jobs is the lowest it's been since statistics started being compiled in the 1940s.

Is it healthy for the future of our society to freeze our children out of low-wage, rite-of-passage jobs? When I was younger, I washed dishes in restaurants, packed tomatoes, did lawn work—this kind of thing is essential if we are to preserve a middle-class society that values work, rather than the Old World model that mass immigration is pushing us toward, where only inferiors ever get their hands dirty.

Sometimes you don't even need to argue with the anti-immigrant crowd.  Just let them keep talking, and they'll usually beat themselves.

NEXT: Study: 99 Percent of the Internet Wasted

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  1. See, these immigrants are coming here to sponge off us and live on welfare, while stealing our jobs and working their asses off. They’re responsible for over-population and abortion. They don’t assimilate and learn our language, and their kids are studying too hard and stealing prized spots in magnet schools. (I swear to God, I actually heard some suburbanites make that last complaint. OK, it was in regard to Asians, but still.)

    I have it on good authority that immigrants are responsible for obesity and starvation. They are a leading contributor to global warming and the coming ice age.

  2. While its certainly easy to dismiss the “half-ass” argument, there are laws limiting the number of hours teenagers work. It’s not their fault if an employers hires an immigrant who can, “legally,” work more hours.

  3. Perfectly valid point. Immigrants do take jobs from teenagers. Having teenagers work is good for them and society. This is a negative effect of immigration on the native born population. There are good and bad things about immigration, it isn’t all positive. It seems libertarians (and everyone else) often pick a side and then ridicule anything that doesn’t jive with there view.

  4. Immigrants are responsible for high oil prices, and their cheap labor at oil refineries keeps the price artificially low.

    This is fun!

  5. There’s only one solution to this: a giant gay orgy.

  6. I never had a paying job as a teenager. I just spent a lot of daylight hours on weekends doing yard work…on a darn big lawn.

    Unpaid.

    *grumbles*

  7. Am I the first to get the title reference? (it’s the little things that matter)

    And it’s “jjjeeeeeeooooorrrrbbbsssss!”

  8. Incidentally, I’ve just remembered an article I read some time back where someone argued paying summer jobs were bad for teenagers because they caused premature “affluence” since the kids had money to spend on CDs and such without also buying groceries or paying the rent.

  9. I happen to much rather have Beavis and Butt-head work the grill than some brown immigant…

    Seriously, we need to preserve our teenaged stoner counter-jocks, just for the sake of entertainment. Once, when I was back in college, I ordered a hotdog (with everything) at 7-11 at 3:00 in the morning. The long-haired kid there suddenly yelled “DUUUDE! DEATHDOOOOOOOOOOOOOG!!”

  10. So…. I admit that I am completely hawkish on the border. I think that we should strictly enforce immigration law (though I think such laws should be liberalized quite a bit). Weirdly, among my libertarian friends, that’s a pretty common point of view, so I’m wondering if the diversity of opinion exists elsewhere? From the pages of Reason one would imagine this is an open and shut point for libertarians.

    I don’t want people to be able to cross into the US illegaly, though I think we should make it a lot easier to come in, and I’m fine with a worker program. Is there realy such a monolithic opposition to this idea among my libertarian friends on this site? I don’t base this preference on race, economics, anything other than the rule of law. If we’re going to have open borders, let’s make it policy (though I’m against it) but I am very much against this nebulous twilight where we say one thing and do another….

    Am I that far off the beaten libertarian path here, folks?

  11. See, these immigrants are coming here to sponge off us and live on welfare, while stealing our jobs and working their asses off.

    What does it cost to educate a child in California government schools? To deliver a baby in California hospital?

    80 Hospitals in California have closed their doors due to non payment by illegal aliens. Source: New England Journal of Medicine.

    Importing millions of poor people only grows government. This isn’t rocket science.

  12. Ironchef,

    Do you really think that Joseph Majsterski wants to have a giant gay orgy just for the hell of it? Well, you may be right, but he may remember the episode better than you.

  13. Just my own personal experience..I started working at the age of twelve as a bagger at a convenience store on a military base in Germany. At twelve, I was one of the older kids working there. I even had to find crates for the younger kids to stand on so they could reach inside the bags.
    What did I learn from starting to work so young? I learned that working is terribly dull and that there are lots of ways to get around actually having to, you know, do stuff.
    In other words, I think the notion that kids NEED to work young in a mindless low-wage job to gain an appreciation for, uh, something important is way overblown. Can anyone point to a study that shows that teenagers who work at Burger King (or similar) go on to be CEOs at a greater rate than those who don’t?

  14. sam_h,

    A) Is being satirical about POV’s one disagrees either limited to libertarians or even necessarily bad? If you don’t want to see your POV “ridiculed”, you shouldn’t leave your house or turn on your TV.

    B) Don’t worry. Soon those Mexicans stealing jobs from teenagers will be middle class and giving teenagers jobs themselves.

    Damon,

    Well y’know, within any faction there will be sub factions. No political “group” is monolithic in its thinking, as much as it may seem to be to outsiders.

    That said, based on my personal understanding of libertarianism, the pure libertarian position would be at odds with any penalty at all for crossing a border. So what does that mean about libertarians who don’t take that position? It means that people who identify themselves with the philosophy in a general sense don’t align themselves with its pure position on every single issue. I don’t myself, though I think I agree with the philosophy enough so that it’s reasonable to identify myself that way. That’s how I look at it, anyway. Another way to look at it is that we all define the philosophy differently. Anyway, it ultimately comes down to semantics, which I’d say means it’s a trivial matter. Far be it for me to take away the now proverbial decoder ring! But if you’d like to know why many of us DO think freer borders is slam dunkingly consistent with libertarian principles, I’d be glad to explain it. (Please, though, mind my “if”; I recognize you may already understand this entirely.)

  15. It seems libertarians (and everyone else) often pick a side and then ridicule anything that doesn’t jive with there view.

    Indeed. Welcome to Hit & Run.

  16. You mean the title post doesn’t refer to Coach Z? Man I suck.

  17. Damon,

    I should add that:

    I don’t want people to be able to cross into the US illegaly, though I think we should make it a lot easier to come in

    is probably a common belief in these parts. Of course if you do make it easier to come to the US legally, there’ll most likely be less folks doing it illegally.

  18. Y’know, I’ve seen some nasty shit spewed here, and I think it’s common to all points of view. There’s pros and cons to expressing oneself politely versus letting it all hang out.

    But anyone who takes offense to thoreau’s satirical comments on this thread has a rather thin skin.

  19. Good to know that Radley was born into a wealthy family and didn’t have to work for his first car or save money for college.

    As for me, I started a neighborhood yard service at 13. Then moved on to washing dishes at a BBQ joint at 15. Bought my first car the weekend before I turned 16, 1962 VW Bug with a sunroof.

    Get in the real world! Elitism at Reason. Rather sad.

  20. Lessee, what valuable lessons did I learn from my dishwashing jerb? Uh, um . . . it’s kind of hazy but this one time the alcoholic ex-con prep cook drank a bottle of cooking sherry* and stole my bus pass.

    *dude, that’s low, one step up from getting trashed on mouthwash

  21. mk, I am so with you on this. I really don’t see the point in having kids who have any alternative doing the kind of stupid jobs this guy seems to think are so important as rites of passage. My experience working for three months at a fast food joint taught me very little but that bosses stink. Personally, my most passionate hope is that technology eventually eliminates most of these wretched jobs. What the dumbasses who supervise at these places will do once that happens is not my problem.

  22. sam, while it might be worse than having both immigrants and teenagers get jobs, the idea that employers should have to bear the cost of making sure that we don’t end up like the “Old World” is absurd. The idea that the Protestant work ethic exists and that our society depends on it is pretty out there, and the idea that it will only continue to exist due to shiftless teenage laborers is off the reservation.

  23. What the dumbasses who supervise at these places will do once that happens is not my problem.

    Remember that when one of them breaks into your house or your taxes go up to pay their healthcare, etc.

  24. JimBobT,

    If your implication is that a particular class of teenagers should be protected from competition for jobs by others, I think it’s ironic for you to call others elitist.

  25. Why the fuck should employers be coerced to subsidize teenagers when there is a pool of workers who are actually motivated to show up?

  26. Dan T, I was being snarky, and indulging in some bitter, 25-year-old memories.

  27. There will always be jobs available to teenagers who actually want to work hard, as there will always be people who just need help 10-20 hours a week. The only people getting squeezed out of those jobs are the lazy ones.

    Personally, I gained a lot from my teen menial labor years (delivering papers, bussing tables, waiting tables, working retail). I learned to respect the value of hard work and a dollar, and more importantly, I learned to like and respect the people who do crappy menial jobs for low pay. I certainly know a lot of people who never learned those lessons.

    damon,

    It’s perfectly fine to be in favor of border security and strict law enforcement. Most of the derision here is towards people who cite phantom immigration “problems,” like this lazy teen laborer crisis, and who pretend that stricter enforcement will solve the problem. You know, like when people think more prison for drug users will “solve” the drug “problem.”

  28. If your implication is that a particular class of teenagers should be protected from competition for jobs by others, I think it’s ironic for you to call others elitist.

    Where did I say anything close to that. But what you don’t seem to understand is, when I was washing dishes 36yrs ago, my employer was paying FICA taxes. Today it’s straight cash to illegals. This amounts to corporate welfare and is a driving force why employers would rather hire illegals rather than teenagers. Not because they’re more reliable or work harder. There are plenty of teenagers trying to save money for college or get a car. Date money etc etc.

  29. Why the fuck should employers be coerced to subsidize teenagers when there is a pool of workers who are actually motivated to show up?

    You’ve got it backwards. The taxpayers are subsidizing corporate America with cheap labor.

    Privatize the gains that come with cheap labor and dump all the cost on the taxpayers.

  30. JimBobT, how are we subsidizing with cheap labor? Are you saying gains shouldn’t be privatized? What is the cost to taxpayers?

  31. JimBobT, illegals usually provide false SSs, so they actually do pay taxes into the system and never get anything back out. As to dishwashers, you are right that the corporate monsters running the hospitality industry are cheating us, what with their waiters and bartenders not reporting all their tips. Dastardly!

  32. What’s the big deal? These illegal immigrants will all be legal once the North American Union is created. At that point, we can send the teenagers to Mexico for summer work.

  33. It seems libertarians (and everyone else) often pick a side and then ridicule anything that doesn’t jive with there view.

    Yes, libertarians are quite unique in that regard.

    Can anyone point to a study that shows that teenagers who work at Burger King (or similar) go on to be CEOs at a greater rate than those who don’t?

    With no actual supporting data, I’d guess that most CEOs never needed a part-time job at Burger King. We all knew these guys, they were the ones who were driving BMWs in high school.

  34. Actually, I think a fairly high number of executives in the fast food industry started out guarding the dehydrated pickle barrel. I’m pretty sure that’s true of McDonald’s. In which case, what would be wrong if McDonald’s CEO was a Mexican. I think he’s an Australian now.

  35. But what you don’t seem to understand is, when I was washing dishes 36yrs ago, my employer was paying FICA taxes.

    And when I was bussing tables for $3.25 an hour (less than min. wage at the time) at age 13, I was paid in cash.

    Let’s not pretend like only illegals get paid under the table, ok?? Lots of American citizens get paid cash for low paying / low skill jobs. It’s easier for both parties at times.

  36. I may have scanned this post too quickly, but I don’t see where it specifies ILLEGAL immigrants. It looks to me like the beef here is with immigrants of any stripe.

    Personally I always considered it a shame that teens who work part-time for pocket money are taking jobs away from those who need them a lot more. When I was 17 I worked at the local McDonalds just for the experience. One of the other workers was a guy just out of prison. If you took the high school kids out of the equation there would be more openings for people who really need the work. Kids from well-off families who want to gain experience can take on volunteer positions and get their pocket money from their parents (I would suggest a program like City Year, but on a libertarian site I’m guessing this would not be met with widespread approval.)

    So, being the big-government liberal that I am, I would be in favor of raising the minimum working age with exceptions for kids from low income families.

  37. JimBobT, illegals usually provide false SSs, so they actually do pay taxes into the system and never get anything back out.

    That’s simply not true. I think even the WSJ had to admit that most illegals are payed straight cash. Those that aren’t are treated as indentured servants. If they ask for more money employers just tell them they’ll get another illegal to work for less.

  38. Sam_H said “It seems libertarians (and everyone else) often pick a side and then ridicule anything that doesn’t jive with there view.”

    Sounds pretty obvious when I read it over. The sky is also blue.

  39. Frankly, it’s the kind of jobs that Krikorian describes (along with the sort of people that were my coworkers and managers) that permanently soured by view on work and made me firmly desire to never work again.

  40. sam_h,

    Sorry, missed your parenthetical. (But then, that’s often the point of parentheses, that the contents within can be skipped!)

    That said, I still think the “ridicule” on this thread has been quite mild.

  41. How many people in low paying jobs does it take to equal what -assumption- the posters here pay in taxes? Compare that to the services said low income people receive from the government.

  42. JimBobT,

    First, since I said “if”, you only had to say that no, you didn’t mean to imply that. But I’d say it’s a reasonable assumption to make. I’ll explain if you like.

    Next, you procede tell me I don’t understand that some illegal labor is under the table without my giving you ANY reason to think that!! But of course I understand that. All the more reason to make it easier for illegals to be legal. Since you’re apparently not for labor protectionism (the rationale for keeping illegals illegal, or at least the one raised in the original blog post for this thread), perhaps that means you agree with me?

  43. Those that aren’t are treated as indentured servants. If they ask for more money employers just tell them they’ll get another illegal to work for less.

    Being told that you won’t get a raise because others are willing to work at the wage you’re getting makes you an indentured servant??? I don’t know what you mean by that term, but all workers, and especially unskilled workers, face the possibility that they’ll be turned down for a raise, and ultimately the reason is always that you can be replaced. The less easily replaceable you are, the more likely you’ll get the raise you ask for. It’s a matter of skills (versus your current wage), not your legal status.

    That said, I would agree that illegals face potential problems that others don’t. All the more reason to make it easier for them to be legal.

  44. sam_h,

    I’ll concede this about the “ridicule” thing. Consistent with human nature, it is often more common to address the worst of the arguments made by those with whom you disagree rather than the best of those, and that is what Radley has clearly done here, finding some stupidity from two years ago. One might argue that it’s more noble and even more useful to address the best of your opponents’ arguments. That said, there’s something to be said with having some easy fun once in a while, plus the lesser arguments may shed light on the nature of that side’s mode of thinking in general by inadvertent exaggeration. One might look at it either way…

  45. Like some of the posters here, I had good reason to work in the lowly jobs I worked in as a kid. My allowance was small and I wanted to buy drugs and heavy metal albums. Those are expensive ya know.
    So I entered the workforce any way I could. I’ve never minded working hard. I spent many years in the restaurant industry where working hard and making money are directly correlated. I would suggest that young people work in a environment like that. You learn a lot about customer service if nothing else.
    What didn’t happen is a career, or my acquiring any kind of skills that would get me to that middle-class wage. That took education and an internship. Presently, the only I have carried over from my decade in restaurants is that I am the customer service trainer where I work. A job I do because noone else seems interested, or capable of doing it.
    I don’t plan on forcing my child to work in some dreadful job, unless we are starving or something. THere are a thousand better ways to get the skills needed for a bright future than donning a hairnet. Let those who need that money take that job.

  46. Illegal immigrant workers are totally at the mercy of their employers.
    Do They dare organize? NO!
    Do they dare report unsafe working conditions? NO!
    Do they dare report sexual harrassment? NO!
    Do they dare report racial discrimination? NO!
    And on and on and on.
    Illegals are an employers wet dream.
    Secure the borders and increase the legal immigrant population. Hell, maybe even inform the immigrants of their rights as they enter legally. Are these radical ideas?

  47. Secure the borders and increase the legal immigrant population. Hell, maybe even inform the immigrants of their rights as they enter legally. Are these radical ideas?

    Of course not.

    The people you are arguing against agree completely with this position. The principal difference is that they would make any immigrant who was not a threat to the public be a legal immigrant.

    The other difference is that they believe that an immigrant’s lacking a piece of paper from the state that makes him “legal” does not abrogate his preexisting inalienable rights to travel, residence, and labor.

  48. I believe it was “joerb”, no?

  49. As always, proponents of open immigration never set limits. How many immigrants per year is optimal? Generally the response is “the market will take care of it”, if there is no economic growth immigration will decrease- and anyway population predictions a few decades out say the population will be some number.

    How fast will immigration numbers respond to the economy? If the response is too slow will the US end up with a much larger poor population in need of support?

    How are the free market models for open immigration falsified? Under what conditions do they not work?

  50. MK,

    Where were you in Germany and what’s your age? I’m in my late 20s and was all over: zweibrucken, kreuzberg, grafenwoehr, visleck. Army brat as well.

    -D

  51. Of course argument from authority or ad hominem is the SOP. I’m actually interested.

    And yes, I really dislike brown people- just to get it out of the way.

  52. “Personally I always considered it a shame that teens who work part-time for pocket money are taking jobs away from those who need them a lot more?.
    So, being the big-government liberal that I am, I would be in favor of raising the minimum working age with exceptions for kids from low income families.”

    While we are at it, let’s not allow wives of high paid professionals to work; they don’t really need the money and are just taking away work from people who need it.

  53. StupendousMan,

    You ask a lot of questions for someone from…are you from New Jersey?

    You could ask the same questions about any sort of freedom, and, in fact, no, the market does not adjust or “works” immediately and perfectly, ever. But it generally does work a hell of a lot better than central planning. And if you’re arguing that immigration must be controlled because the freedom of people to do what they want will be bad, you’re essentially making a centrally controlled economy argument (whether you mean to or not) because the alternative is that our enlightened government decide how many immigrants will optimize economic conditions. You also ignore the obvious fact that legislating against immigration doesn’t stop it but only leads to unintended, and undesired, consequences.

  54. New Jersey? WTF?

    Again- do you know what conditions would make the model false? How can you form an opinion if don’t know?

    I wasn’t arguing anything.

    “You also ignore the obvious fact that legislating against immigration doesn’t stop it but only leads to unintended, and undesired, consequences. ”

    In all conditions?

  55. How are the free market models for open immigration falsified?

    fyodor makes good points. How do you falsify freedom? How would one try to falsify free trade, for instance? On the protectionist side, people will point to factories closing and people out of work. The free trade side really has only theory to point to since the gains from lifting protectionist measures usually are reflected only in the aggregate among the hundreds of millions of people who do not work in the affected industry.

    All that said, I would say that GDP per capita would be the best metric. This metric suffers from the fact that it is hard to decompose from other economic effects, just as is the case with free trade. Nonetheless, I expect GDP per capita to be higher under free immigration than under restricted immigration.

    Furthermore, since new immigrants are not generally capital holders in the economy, GDP per capita of long-term residents will rise even more. Those with some misguided notion that citizens somehow “own” the country should be very pleased with that metric.

  56. Ponder this: while you (and you may or may not know who you are) whine about them danged old immigrints what done stold yer jaourbs, I sit out here in the not-zero-sum universe, and wonder who stole yer imagination.

    The Fisher Brothers built carriages, of the horse-drawn variety, until the internal combustion engine came along and took the horses’ jaourbs. I wonder what ever became of those guys…

  57. reason to make it easier for them to be legal.

    fyodor, you are the epitome of a corporate welfare lackey.

  58. Damon,
    I was a bagger at the Vogelweh grocery outside of Kaiserslautern around 1981-82. A looong time ago.

  59. Is it healthy for the future of our society to freeze our children out of low-wage, rite-of-passage jobs?

    We have to keep illegal immigrants from taking our kid’s jobs. Instead we need child labor laws to make it illegal for kids to work, taxes to make it uneconomical for kids to work, and minimum wage laws to price the kids out of the market.

    As always, proponents of open immigration never set limits. How many immigrants per year is optimal? Generally the response is “the market will take care of it”, if there is no economic growth immigration will decrease- and anyway population predictions a few decades out say the population will be some number.

    This is a fallacy resulting from use of the term “immigration.” Immigration leads to the presumption that the workers from Mexico want to move to the U.S. perminantly. Actually most of them want to come up here for the season, earn a little money, then return home.

    Guest worker program. Problem solved.

  60. Read the study below. The logical conclusion is that the mexicans we already have here need help. Does importing millions more hinder our ability to help them? Are anti-poverty resources finite or infinite, and should that effect our decision on how much poverty to import? This study focus’s on second generation immigrants of certain ethnicities who are having an especially hard time.

    UC Irvine study:
    http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1529

    Study sheds light on how young adult children of immigrants assimilate

    Largest, longest study of children of immigrants reveals certain groups are left behind

    Irvine, Calif., October 4, 2006

    While the vast majority of young adult children of immigrants experience upward economic and social mobility, a new study finds that a significant minority are suffering from lower levels of education, lower incomes, higher birth rates and higher levels of incarceration. Furthermore, it is the U.S.-born children of Mexican, Haitian and West Indian immigrants who experience these problems in the largest proportions.

    The study, led by sociologists Rub?n G. Rumbaut of UC Irvine and Alejandro Portes of Princeton University, appears online this week in the Migration Information Source. The largest and longest-running study of children of immigrants yet conducted, the study also confirms the critical importance of education.

    “The greatest educational disadvantage is found among children of Mexican immigrants and Laotian and Cambodian refugees in our sample – close to 40 percent of whom did not go beyond a high school diploma,” said Rumbaut. “Education is the key to successful upward mobility among children of immigrants, so the discrepancies that emerge in educational achievement among immigrant groups tend to persist in trends for income, employment and incarceration.”

    The researchers also point to the influence of human capital (the skills and education of immigrant parents) as well as family structure, racial prejudice and government policies toward certain immigrant groups – particularly the undocumented – that influence this “downward assimilation” process.

    The researchers found that children of Laotian and Cambodian Americans as well as Haitian Americans had the lowest median annual household income at just over $25,000. They were followed closely by Mexican American families, which had a median annual household income of about $30,000. On the other end of the spectrum, children of upper-middle-class Cuban exiles in Southern Florida reported a household income of more than $70,000, and Filipino Americans in Southern California had more than $64,000, followed by Chinese immigrants.

    Furthermore, the study found that the most educationally and economically disadvantaged children of immigrants were most likely to have children of their own at a young age, compounding their difficulties at pursuing higher education. When surveyed at the average age of 24, none of the Chinese Americans had children, while in contrast 25 percent of Haitians, West Indians, Laotians and Cambodians did, as did 41 percent of Mexican American young adults.

    Differences in arrest and incarceration rates are also noteworthy, particularly among second-generation, U.S.-born, males. While only 10 percent of second-generation immigrant males in the survey had been incarcerated, that figure jumped to 20 percent among West Indian and Mexican American youths.

    “Unfortunately, these trends perpetuate the racial and ethnic stereotypes that contributed to their situation in the first place,” Rumbaut said. “On the positive side, we see that children of immigrant families with little money and low human capital can move forward positively in American society. But there is clearly a minority segment among the native-born children of some immigrant groups that is getting caught in a cycle of downward mobility, and we need to understand the trends that drive this process.”

    There are more than 30 million U.S.-born children of immigrants. Rumbaut is continuing to explore the major events influencing the social outcomes of the immigrant second generation, focusing on early childbirth for women and incarceration among men.

    About the Study: The surveys were conducted over more than 10 years with random samples representing 77 different nationalities originally drawn in 1991 in San Diego, Calif., and Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., of more than 5,000 respondents who were then in junior high school, The most recent surveys were conducted from 2001 to 2004 when the respondents were between the ages of 23 and 27. The surveys are part of the Children of Immigrants Longitudinal Study, which was designed to examine the in-depth interaction between immigrant parents and their children and the evolution of the young from adolescence into early adulthood. Results from the CILS surveys provide the most compelling current evidence to date of how the second generation adapts – from education and income to unemployment, family formation and incarceration. The study was funded with support from the Russell Sage Foundation. More: http://www.russellsage.org.

    About the University of California, Irvine: The University of California, Irvine is a top-ranked university dedicated to research, scholarship and community service. Founded in 1965, UCI is among the fastest-growing University of California campuses, with more than 24,000 undergraduate and graduate students and about 1,400 faculty members. The second-largest employer in dynamic Orange County, UCI contributes an annual economic impact of $3.3 billion. For more UCI news, visit http://www.today.uci.edu.

  61. Am I the first to get the title reference?

    No, but you are the only one who won’t *shut up* about it.

  62. fyodor, you are the epitome of a corporate welfare lackey.

    Gee, you’ve sure proven me wrong with that airtight argument!!

    New Jersey? WTF?

    Obscure Gilda Radner/Saturday Night Live reference, sorry.

    Again- do you know what conditions would make the model false?

    Nuclear war? Short of that I expect greater freedom to generally lead to greater economic growth. I’m not aware of a model that specifies exceptions to that. As for under what conditions will penalizing undocumented immigration lead to undesired consequences, I’d say under all that we’re likely to encounter.

  63. “How do you falsify freedom?” How do you ride a unicorn? Flowers, puppy dogs and pixie dust. A great ideal but a universal freedom doesn’t work so well unless it’s adopted universally.

    A “not-zero-sum universe” still requires a “not-zero-sum” model to predict the ramifications of our actions.

  64. “I expect greater freedom to generally lead to greater economic growth. I’m not aware of a model that specifies exceptions to that”

    Why would you expect that? I’m not saying that I think you are wrong, but can you think of ways in which greater freedom would lead to economic stagnation or decline?

  65. A great ideal but a universal freedom doesn’t work so well unless it’s adopted universally.

    Talk about a statement that is not supportable… Why on earth would you expect this to be true?

    Exactly the opposite is in fact the case: In free trade, in free migration, in freedom of speech, press or religion, in abolishing slavery, in any freedom you can think of, a nation — or, more generally, any group of individuals — is better off unilaterally adopting the freedom regardless of what others do.

    One could concoct pathological public goods cases — and maybe that’s what your incessant requests for falsifiable models is all about — but adopting freedom is a clear win for the adoptor theoretically, empirically, and historically. What evidence would you have against it?

  66. Why would you expect that? I’m not saying that I think you are wrong, but can you think of ways in which greater freedom would lead to economic stagnation or decline?

    Hmmmmmm…if the entire population was retarded? Seriously, no, I don’t think that’s likely. I think that based on my understanding of history, economics and human nature. Or, put another way, experience combined with a logical model to explain it.

  67. “Hit and Run” is an appropriate name for this blog. In high school, I worked nights as a factotum at a snack bar / restaurant. There was nothing half-assed about the way I and my co-workers performed our jobs, and it taught us something at a young age about being responsible. I resent the implication that I was a spoiled brat. That’s the point he was making. I agree with him, so I guess I’m a charmless bigot. When I obtain your level of charm and open-mindedness, I’m sure I’ll be a better person.

  68. Except that nowhere in the quote, and I suspect the article or post, does Krikorkian suggest that teenagers will or should “half-ass” the position. That little dollop of bias is all yours Radley.

    It’s also interesting in relationship to minimum wage arguments that in the past, most minimum wage jobs have been held down by people entering the workplace, including a fair number of teen workers learning the work ethic and getting practical experience in a job, as an employee. The presence of immigrant workers willing to do these jobs, changes this dynamic, making minimum wage increases more likely (and logical, since they would therefore at least have a positive impact on some wage earners and their families).

    I’m hardly anti-immigration myself (only opposed to illegal immigration, because, you know… the law and all) but it seems counter-productive in the sense of minimum wages at least for a Libertarian to make the argument Radley is.

  69. Mr. Balko might notice that when the governor of Cali signed an increase in the minimum wage recently, he was surrounded by a bunch of Latino politicians who pressed for an increase in the minimum wage. They, in turn, were put in office by (1) ‘Latino’ immigrants and their children who vote on the basis of ethnic solidarity and (2) the ‘rotting’ of entire districts because of the huge influx of immigrants who can’t vote (and letting them vote is not an answer for you Libertarians, because there is no doubt they would simply add more constituents for decidedly anti-libertarian policies.

    Of course, Balko also does not address another important topic — the ‘family’ to feed that is such an incentive for work is getting free education at $8500 per year per kid , probably a ‘free’ school lunch, some HUD subsidies for housing, emergency room health care. The ‘teenage stoner’ that your commenters so revile doesn’t bring all that baggage with them.

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