In Your Heart, You Know He's Batshit Insane

Old CW: Don Goldwater was a second-rate candidate for governor of Arizona, trading off his famous uncle's legacy.

New CW: Don Goldwater is a wild-eyed racist loon.

A Republican gubernatorial candidate's call for creation of a forced labor camp for illegal immigrants drew rebukes Friday from two GOP lawmakers, who labeled it a low point in the immigration debate.

Don Goldwater, nephew of the late Sen. Barry Goldwater, caused an international stir this week when EFE, a Mexican news service, quoted him as saying he wanted to hold undocumented immigrants in camps to use them "as labor in the construction of a wall and to clean the areas of the Arizona desert that they're polluting."

The article described Goldwater's plan as a "concentration camp" for migrants.

How much of this has been hyped by the "Mexican news service"? Apparently not much; Goldwater has said the same thing before. Sen. John McCain and Rep. Jim Kolbe have both denounced Goldwater and asked Republicans to reject him in the primary. But that won't happen. The bigger question: Will the Minutemen, who (at least among their leadership) endorsed Goldwater, keep their distance?

Comments

[Matt Smith]

I think Goldwater is right to an extent. I don't think that we should hold illegals caught along the border in a camp to build a wall, but I do think that "guest workers" should be housed by their hosts (the employer) in a camp of some sort and not allowed to leave until the job is done. Then they should be put on a bus back to Mexico to await their next turn as a guest worker.

[Rhywun]

guest workers" should be housed by their hosts (the employer) in a camp of some sort

A happy camp?

[Ron Hardin]

English camp.

Put them to work in call centers for the division of motor vehicles.

[The Owner's Manual]

Think of it as "Clean up the mess you made, then go home," Gordo. Kiss their ass and release them isn't working.

[joe]

Forced labor camps.

Wow.

I believe there are still some of the internment camps from WW2 in the Arizona desert. They'd be perfect.

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

New CW: Don Goldwater is a wild-eyed racist loon.
Folks who use "racist" when refering non-racial issues are just run-of-the-mill loons.

I think Goldwater is right to an extent.
Probably so.

Forced labor camps. Wow.
Only for the people who volunteer.

[happyjuggler0]

So he doesn't like illegal immigrants, presumably because they are taking American jobs.

Solution? Employ them (forcibly) to do jobs that Americans "should" be doing instead.

Brilliant! Sadly there will be those who think this makes sense.

[Warren]

Hey, I've got a great idea: If we're going to crack down on illegals and arrest them, we shouldn't just send them to some prison cell and let them live off the taxpayers. We should make them earn their keep: Have them do construction work, pick crops, wash dishes, and so forth.

Oh, wait...

Comment by: thoreau at May 17, 2006 11:05 PM

[Troy]

What is the big fuss? We already have more people in concentration camps than anyone else in the world. They are called prisons.....duh! So, how would the prisons for these illegals be any different than our current concentration camps except that the federal and state concentration camps will pay $0.05/hour?
And since many of the prisons have large, violent mexican populations, I don't see any difference.
Oh, and employers do have camps and they are deplorable. When I worked for legal services in Idaho, these fucking whiny-ass farmers would stick 15 in a room with no running water or sewage. Oh, and if they beat the shit out of or starve the immigrant, the illegals are too afraid of the cops (as they should be) because of the risk of either more abuse or being deported. And how these farmers bitch when they have to pay a descent wage.

[madpad]

...should be housed by their hosts (the employer) in a camp of some sort and not allowed to leave until the job is done.

Takes a real unhinged-from-reality sicko to think this is a good idea.

[Hank]

Great, so the Republican alternatives in Arizona are a right-wing loon who thinks all gay people should be shot (Len Munsil), or a right-wing loon who thinks all latin immigrants should be shot (Don Goldwater). This probably explains why a closet-cased lesbian who thinks 20% per year spending increases are fiscal discipline (Janet Napolitano) will be re-elected by a 40 point margin. Only in Arizona...

[madpad]

Oh, and employers do have camps and they are deplorable. When I worked for legal services in Idaho, these fucking whiny-ass farmers would stick 15 in a room with no running water or sewage.

We've got a similar problem here in North Florida/Southern Georgia. It doesn't stop with Latino illegals. It includes blacks, Bosnians & Asians too. Basically any poor, disenfranchised individual is a target for this.

Let's just say I'm not impressed with the whole "forced labor camp" concept.

It's one thing to be a violent felon or a habitual criminal - on top of being here illegally. So far, I've seen no numbers that indicate the majority of illegal immigrants are here for any other reason than to make a living.

To take a person who's obviously working (or trying to) and put them in prison (or forced labor camp) seems a ridiculous idea, horribly inefficient with a massive potential for abuse.

Turns millions of people who loves America and admire what it stands for into justified America-haters.

[APL]

This is a fantastic idea. After a certain period of labor, the illegals can then be bused back to Mexico. To emphasize this, the camps need some kind of slogan. I'm thinking "El trabajo libera" right over the main gate.

[Windypundit]

To take a person who's obviously working (or trying to) and put them in prison (or forced labor camp) seems a ridiculous idea, horribly inefficient with a massive potential for abuse.

Turns millions of people who loves America and admire what it stands for into justified America-haters.

Well said.

These people aren't coming here to commit crimes and hurt people. They're coming here because they have the same desires I do. They only want the things I already have, and they don't want to take them from me, they want to earn them.

[aliceinnewyorkland]

Hmm. Fundamentalist in government; incredibly wealthy society that doesn't like to share; labor that members of wealthy society don't want to do; unlimited "labor pool" of poverty-stricken "strangers" from neighboring not-so-wealthy nation; big mean construction project designed to show off the power of the people in charge long, long after they're dead; camps to "contain" the "guest workers"...
um. egypt, anyone? those pointy things in the desert that brendan frasier likes to visit in the movies?

[thoreau]

Warren-

Thanks for posting that!

It's sad when dumb jokes are advanced as policy proposals by real candidates.

[AZ ZATIVE]

The Senior Senator from Arizona sure has been having a series of 'senior-moments' of late whilst running for President.

Goldwater knows what's right for Arizona and that's dealing with the issue of illegals from the Middle East to Mexico invading our State.

Doesn't McCain realize that the States #1 ranking for SERIOUS CRIME is hugely due to the fact that his "Open-Door" policy has made the State we love become increasingly destroyed right before our very eyes?

I for one plan to immediately fill out the form on the Goldwater4Governor website and send Don Goldwater $5 so he can run a successful primary campaign.

It's time to stand up against the folks that have been helping demolish the State that used to known as one of the best places to reside and raise our families

[P Brooks]

How can Halliburton underbid slave labor? Oh, wait- somebody will have to provide management services (and baloney sammiches).

[DonGoldwaterComments]

Whatever little credibility Reason might have had evaporates as David Weigel asks, How much of this has been hyped by the "Mexican news service"?

Did Weigel bother to do any research into this matter? Or, did he just take the AP's second-hand "reporting", and add his own into the mix?

If you want to read what Goldwater actually said, click my name. This appears to simply be a yellow journalism invention by EFE, and supporters of illegal immigration are gleefully following their lead.

[midbrowcrisis]

How about on Thanksgiving we just give out guns to all legal citizens and allow a one day free illegal immigrant turkey shoot. Then hand out prizes for how many you bag. Maybe even offer a lottery type of reward, which will help pay for all the subsized farms illegals are working on. I mean, just because I'm a libertarian doesn't mean I'm opposed to slave labor or murder.

[joe]

"It's time to stand up against the folks that have been helping demolish the State that used to known as one of the best places to reside and raise our families."

The Mexicans?

[AC]

Doesn't McCain realize that the States #1 ranking for SERIOUS CRIME is hugely due to the fact that his "Open-Door" policy has made the State we love become increasingly destroyed right before our very eyes?

Yeah, it has nothing to do with Arizona's extremely strict drug laws that attract the most ruthless criminals that take advantage of the high profits.

[Libertarianoid]

Illegals sneaking into Arizona to work in a labor camp is a voluntary act. Being libertarians, in principle it's none of our business to interfere with what others choose to do.

[Karen]

Did this guy read about the case a few years ago in Florida against the labor contractors prosecuted for violating the laws against involuntary servitude? Has he decided that's a GOOD thing in our economy?

Seriously, immigration is a complicated issue that's being reduced to idiocy, largely by the anti-immigrant crowd. (See Vdare.com, but only if you have a strong stomach.) I generally favor generous immigration rules, but I'd like to see some arguments on the other side other than "we just don't like Mexicans." What we have right now works neither for the country nor the immigrants themselves, but surely there is something between eliminating the border patrol and rounding up everyone with a deep tan and a non-English surname. If pressed, I'll go for the first alternative, but Jeez I wish someone offered something other than what we've been presented.

[joe]

"If you want to read what Goldwater actually said, click my name."

Which I did. The page doesn't publish what Goldwater actually said, just your assertion that AP was lying.

The sum total of Lonewacko's evidence that the story is false is that it was reported by Mexicans.

[thoreau]

I mean, just because I'm a libertarian doesn't mean I'm opposed to slave labor or murder.

See, midbrowcrisis, you're learning to move beyond the ideological purity that holds libertarians back! 🙂

[Ruthless]

A side-effect of any government is to incite bitterness between "us" and "them."
Only peaceful anarchists are willing to point out that we are all in this together, and that cooperation is the only way to make faster progress.
Peace, love, daisies.

[IllegalImmigrationIntroduction]

joe opines: Which I did. The page doesn't publish what Goldwater actually said, just your assertion that AP was lying. The sum total of Lonewacko's evidence that the story is false is that it was reported by Mexicans.

Actually, at the link above the reader will find a link to the original story from the Spanish (as in Spain, for those unfamiliar with geography) news agency that started the yellow journalism ball rolling.

Specifically, the EFE doesn't publish more than a snippet or two of what Goldwater had to say about this. Around that they've weaved their "concentrationcamps" charge.

The reader is invited to look into this themselves and decide whether they should believe anything from Reason Magazine.

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

Great, so the Republican alternatives in Arizona are a right-wing loon who thinks all gay people should be shot (Len Munsil), or a right-wing loon who thinks all latin immigrants should be shot (Don Goldwater).
The second assertion is false, therefore I gather the first assertion is also false.

Let's just say I'm not impressed with the whole "forced labor camp" concept.
It *is* pretty outrageous:
"Goldwater, a candidate for governor in Arizona, said in a statement Friday that his comments were taken out of context. He said he was calling for a work program for convicted nonviolent felons, similar to "tried and tested, effective and accepted practices" used by state and local jails."
(from the URL which apparently nobody bothered to read, preferring instead to repeat someone's negative mischaracterization of it).

incredibly wealthy society that doesn't like to share;
How much of your money have you personally "shared" with ... take your pick of groups you think everyone else should share with. Perhaps I should pick a group, since you want to pick groups for others: how much have you donated the Aryan Brotherhood?

Seriously, immigration is a complicated issue that's being reduced to idiocy, largely by the anti-immigrant crowd. (See Vdare.com, but only if you have a strong stomach.)
I beg to differ. Unlike Reason, which presents innuendoes, Vdare actually presents clear information (all those confusing facts 'n' figures), as well as quite a few articles written by immigrants, including immigrants from Mexico. Vdare isn't anti-immigrant, as you incorrectly claim.

I generally favor generous immigration rules, but I'd like to see some arguments on the other side other than "we just don't like Mexicans."
And here you demonstrate that you're actually one of the people who reduce the argument to idiocy.

So, anyway, my two best friends are from Mexico and we're all opposed to illegal and/or other specialized and/or non-quota immigration from Mexico: why do you think they dislike themselves? Are they "racist" against themselves, or perhaps just each other?

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

Let's try that again:
Seriously, immigration is a complicated issue that's being reduced to idiocy, largely by the anti-immigrant crowd. (See Vdare.com, but only if you have a strong stomach.)

I beg to differ. Unlike Reason, which presents innuendoes, Vdare actually presents clear information (all those confusing facts 'n' figures), as well as quite a few articles written by immigrants, including immigrants from Mexico. Vdare isn't anti-immigrant, as you incorrectly claim.

[Mike Laursen]

CW = conventional wisdom? country and western? Really, what do you Reason writers have against fully spelling out words. I hate acronyms!

[kwais]

Some really interesting ideas presented in this thread.

Good comeback Mr F.

I am amused by the idea of forcing illegal immigrants to build giant pyramids out of rock. I meand it is wrong, but pretty cool too.

My personal crazy idea is as follows;
Allow imigrants from Mexico into the US contingent on that they stay employed for as long as they are here, or until they get citizenship.

For every Mexican that comes into the US we export one welfare recipient over to mexico (we still send them their welfare money, which would be huge in the Mexican economy.)

That is my quota system.

the more I think about it the more I like it.

[waiv]

Actually Don Goldwater's own words were:

"First, we must secure the border by constructing a fence/wall complex, positioning ground/air radar and ground sensors, placing the National Guard on the border performing normal military functions, not restricted to vehicle maintenance and logistics, and build a 'tent city' to house the detained illegal aliens near the border so they will be close to their work detail: building the wall and cleaning up the desert. If a fence/wall doesnt work why is there one around the White House?"

So, yes, he's pretty much proposing a concentration camp and forced labor for illegal aliens, specially when you consider that a)being an illegal alien is not a felony but misdemeanor and b) he's talking about detainees, not convicts.

http://redstatepatriot.com/2006/05/maybe_there_is_hope.php

If you want more sources you can google 'Don Goldwater' tent city.

[madpad]

For Lonewacko's assertion that Reason lack's credibility because it reported the story to it's readers, it should come as some comfort that - using his assertion as a gauge, of course - that Reason now holds the same level of credibility as Fox News and CBS News.

Congratulations Reason Mag!

[Dave]

The rest of Goldwater's plan aside, why is opposition to people illegally crossing our borders automatically racist?
I support people of all ethnicities who want to come to this country, learn and adopt the principles that made this nation great, and build a better life for themselves. I don't support people crossing our borders without permission. Does that make me a racist?

[kwais]

McCain is a cunt?

[Jim Walsh]

He should get a job in political squawk radio; he'd fit right in.

[thoreau]

I don't support people crossing our borders without permission. Does that make me a racist?

No.

Since your main concern is making sure that things are legal and orderly, I assume you're fine with making it easier to get permission so that the supply of harmless and eager workers can keep pace with the demand for labor?

I'm thinking of something like heavy border enforcement, with work visas given to anybody who passes a background check against criminal and terrorist databases, pays a fee, and agrees not to apply for welfare.

[kwais]

no one wants to comment on my "alien for a welfare recipient" plan?

It strikes me as genius. I am going to use it in my platform when I run for office.

[thoreau]

It is a great plan, kwais. I'd vote for you.

[kwais]

Thanks Dr T.

[Douglas Westerman]

It's ironic, the slogan above the gate at Auschwitz, was "Arbeit Macht Frei", "Work Leads to Freedom". I'm not in favor, but such camps would most likely end up being nicer than the ones provided for illegal workers by many employers, which although bad, are still better, (coupled with the extra money)than working conditions in Mexico. By the way, the size of our border with Mexico is huge. Anybody computed the cost of effectively patrolling it? If the illegals are anywhere near as resourceful as the Iraqi Insurgency, it doesn't bode well for sealing off our southern border.

[joe]

"joe opines: Which I did. The page doesn't publish what Goldwater actually said, just your assertion that AP was lying. The sum total of Lonewacko's evidence that the story is false is that it was reported by Mexicans."

That the link you provide does not lead to "what Goldwater actually said" is not an opinion.

Nor is it an opinion that you offer no evidence that the story is false other than its Mexican origin. Those are both statement of fact, and accurate to boot, as anyone who bothers to click on the link can easily see.

I like arguing with people who disagree with me, but lying about where your link leads to get more hits on your blog is pathetic.

[Ruthless]

thoreau,
Don't encourage kwais.

kwais,
Your plan is no better than Batshit Don G's.

Borders are the problem. Only governments have 'em.
Which to get rid of first?

[kevrob]

I can't believe that Don AuH?O doesn't see the flaw in his eeeeeeeeeeeeviiiil plan. Sure, you can use detainees, convicts or slaves to build a wall, but that means they'll be able to build secret doors or weak points into it.

Seriously, the guy needs to read the Evil Overlord List.

Kevin

[Ruthless]

"Borders are the problem. Only governments have 'em.
Which to get rid of first?"

I now have thought of what this put me in mind of:

Fleas
by Ogen Nash

Adam
had 'em.
.........

Borders are the fleas of governments.

DDT kills fleas, right, kwais?

What I'd like to see is the UN sponsor a War on Borders.
Maybe it could be made into a movie, at least?

[P Brooks]

Kwais-

I thought your plan had considerable merit. But what happens when we run out of welfare recipients? It might not take long. Do we have to restrict the program to Mexico?

I particularly like the part where you bring them through immigration and thereby provide a database to cross- reference against at the welfare office.

[The Real Bill]

I wonder, if we eliminated welfare, would there be enough laborers to replace the illegal immigrants?

[Ruthless]

The Real Bill,
The secret to creating laborers is eliminating welfare. Not to mention that pesky "permanent disability" shit. (That is the Holy Grail... the Super Lotto. It is what you and I should be ON,like stink on shit.)

[SY]

The secret to immigration control is eliminating welfare, at least for non-citizens. If someone wants to come here to work and make a life for themselves, fine.

We just seem to have an irrational queasiness about treating citizens and noncitizens differently.

Man, oh man, I miss Barry.

[Ruthless]

Si Sy

[Akira MacKenzie]

..why is opposition to people illegally crossing our borders automatically racist?

Because I don't think the nativists would be making batshit insane suggestions about putting immigrants in concentration camps if they where caucasians rather than latinos.

[Akira MacKenzie]

Edit: ...were caucasians...

[thoreau]

IIRC, Cubans who make it to US soil automatically get asylum. The trick, of course, is that the gov't does what it can to keep them from reaching shore because if they do reach shore then they can't be sent home.

Can anybody tell me if my understanding is correct or incorrect?

And, if that is indeed the situation, does anybody have an opinion on whether it's an acceptable situation? Would anybody here want to send people back to Communist Cuba if they came here to work without first going through the bureaucracy and regulations to obtain permission before engaging in economic activity?

[Akira MacKenzie]

Would anybody here want to send people back to Communist Cuba if they came here to work without first going through the bureaucracy and regulations to obtain permission before engaging in economic activity?

Of course not! These are good, potential Republican voters.

[APL]

We just seem to have an irrational queasiness about treating citizens and noncitizens differently.

Jesus, you think it may be because Libertarians get a little worried when the government starts dividing people into catagories for the purposes of disenfranchising one group or another? It's bad enough that we do it to large swaths of people because of the drug war.

[APL]

I thought your plan had considerable merit. But what happens when we run out of welfare recipients? It might not take long. Do we have to restrict the program to Mexico?

Then we move on to the gays, the atheists and the potheads, obviously.

[SY]

Akira, I was under the impression that most Mexicans were Caucasians, at least predominantly. Take a look at a picture of Vicente Fox and report back.

[Ruthless]

thoreau,
Cuba should long ago have had the status of, pick one or two: Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Alaska.

And they never should have put "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

I'm old enough to remember this.

Ed Sullivan loved Fidel.

Who here did Fidel piss off?
Somebody research that.

[thoreau]

I think we should lift the embargo and let the private sector divide Cuba into various Burbclaves, Franchulates, and Franchise-Owned Quasi-National Entities.

[Ruthless]

... and I recall the anxious discussion of how to configure 50 stars on the flag after so many years of 48.

Let's get started early:
A new US flag with (up in the "star" corner) a heart above the sign for infinity.

With that out of the way, the US could move on.
(Yeah, right.)
Only problem I see is that Dubya would want to substitute the universal symbol for "empire" over the sign for infinity.
What is the universal symbol for empire?
Somebody research that.

[Deus ex Machina]

What is the universal symbol for empire?

Uhh, the eagle.

[Ruthless]

Deus ex Machina,
Right on.
But heart symbols and snakes work better than eagles on flags, eh? (Not so busy.)

I'm also thinking the symbol of "infinity" could be like Sputnik, in that it could get a lot of my neighbors thinking, "What da fuck?"
It could become the "taggers' tag"?

[Zach Rodriguez]

Woah, I saw a funny rant baout that very sort of idea on a webpage 2 months ago. Here.

[joe]

I like this contribution from SY, in response to the suggestion that racism could explain the willingness to put these people in camps:

"Akira, I was under the impression that most Mexicans were Caucasians, at least predominantly. Take a look at a picture of Vicente Fox and report back."

Sounds an awful lot like "Arabs can't be anti-Semites because..." Not just wrong, but wrong in a way that it draws attention to what the writer is doing.

[SY]

You might actually research the origin of the term "antisemitism," of recent and very specific coinage, before making a silly and inapt analogy like that. Your invocation of virulent ethnic hate is telling.

[Kwix]

Akira, I was under the impression that most Mexicans were Caucasians, at least predominantly. Take a look at a picture of Vicente Fox and report back.

Ahem:
(Stereotypical)Mexican Worker vs. Loony Honkey.

See a difference? The vast majority of Americans see it and there's where the problem exists. Who gives a shit if Mexican's are only .5% Native anymore, if you can tell the difference between a Mexican and a corn fed Iowa boy then that is enough to sow distrust. They may be white, but they ain't white enough.

[Kwix]

If these bullshit quotas for "desireable" workers were in place when my family tried to come over from Ireland and Germany we'd have been thrown back in the drink. Same goes for Giuliani's Italian roots and just about everybody in the Midwest.

[SY]

Well, by that standard, I'm not nearly white enough.

[Fraggle Rock]

My personal crazy idea is as follows;
Allow imigrants from Mexico into the US contingent on that they stay employed for as long as they are here, or until they get citizenship.

For every Mexican that comes into the US we conscript one welfare recipient into the military with kwais (we won't send them their welfare money, because they will be making a soldiers wages.)

That is my quota system.

the more I think about it the more I like it.

[Fraggle Rock]

Why with all those extra boots on the ground, the US could police places like Columbia and Somalia. I think we are all so tired of their s**t! Kwais would instill the work ethic on these important missions. Sponges ship out and return as police-warriors.

hup two 3 4!

[Dave]

Thoreau,

To answer your above post, yes, I do support those reforms. As my main (though not only) concerns are with border security as it relates to terrorism, I am strongly in favor of a guest worker program that allows Mexican laborers the right to do what they already do in a legitimate and open way. It seems like this would be of huge benefit to those watching over the borders, as the number of bogies on the radar would be greatly reduced, and the certainty that the people sneaking across were up to no good would be greatly increased.
I am employed in the restaraunt business in Phoenix, so I spend every day with the sort of people we are talking about. I respect their hard work, and I imagine their experiences are probably similar to the ones my Irish ancestors went through 120 years ago. On the other hand, it bothers me in principle that are borders would be disregarded, and it bothers me a hell of a lot more because of the war we are engaged in with militant Islam. Neither of these things have to do with race, and it makes my blood boil that many people just assume you are a racist if you care about our borders being respected.

[midbrowcrisis]

"So, anyway, my two best friends are from Mexico and we're all opposed to illegal and/or other specialized and/or non-quota immigration from Mexico: why do you think they dislike themselves? Are they "racist" against themselves, or perhaps just each other?"

There are two possibilities here:
1. They are not racist. They just think because they got here first, they have the moral legitimacy to declare who and how many should come after. It's not racist, just narrow and selfish.

2. People sometimes do make racist statements about their own race. I've heard many white and blacks do this as well.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, Mr. Lemur, and assume it's just the first one.

[SY]

Third possibility: cultural prejudice. And that's the key, not the BS racism stuff. Do a little searching for a historical analogy, the attitude of Jews of German origin to recent immigrants from Eastern Europe at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. As the later waves assimilated, that prejudice went away.

When I talk to people with strong anti-Mexican feelings, I find that they focus on the non-mainstream behavior- the language, the flags, the social attitudes. They don't seem to call fluent, assimilated Mexicans "beaners" or "spics" or "wetbacks."

[SY]

Third possibility: cultural prejudice. And that's the key, not the BS racism stuff. Do a little searching for a historical analogy, the attitude of Jews of German origin to recent immigrants from Eastern Europe at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. As the later waves assimilated, that prejudice went away.

When I talk to people with strong anti-Mexican feelings, I find that they focus on the non-mainstream behavior- the language, the flags, the social attitudes. They don't seem to call fluent, assimilated Mexicans "beaners" or "spics" or "wetbacks."

[thoreau]

Very reasonable, Dave.

[jammin]

So, put them in education camp(s) staffed with reasonoid-libertarian educators for a few weeks. Send them back to their homes to take their country and make it into a country just like the one they have invaded. Problem solved.

[Ruthless]

"Well, by that standard, I'm not nearly white enough."

I saw that about you, SY. (I'm always "si-ing" you, so it stands to reason I done saw you.)

[SY]

Si. There's a wonderful old routine with Mel Blanc dressed as a Mexican bandleader. IIRC, the straight man was Carl Reiner. I've gotta find the link....

[Az Native]

So, this guy Goldwater wants to make non-violent incarcerated felons do an honest day's work and spend some time building an AZ / Mexico fence, instead of letting them just while away their time lifting weights and watching Oprah.

SOUNDS TERRIFIC TO ME!

By the blogway,I just heard recently that Don Goldwater needs everyday Arizonans to FILL-OUT A FORM AND SEND $5 DOLLARS TO GOLDWATER4GOVERNOR, sounds like a way to elect someone who isn't like most all of our other wimpy politicians.

[SY]

Jack Benny and Mel Blanc. Si Cy Sue.

[Apostate Jew]

It's simply too much.

The Goldwater family are descended from Eastern European Jews and Don ought to know better.

The people with the initiative and ability to infiltrate the United States can only add to the strength of the state as they and their descendents assimilate. Emigration is, if you will, an involuntary tax on human capital that poorly governed states pay to America.

[joe]

SY,

You might want to look up the contemporary definition of racism. Weaselly arguments attempting to define prejudice against Mexicans out of the definition aren't going to work.

[Jennifer]

So, this guy Goldwater wants to make non-violent incarcerated felons do an honest day's work and spend some time building an AZ / Mexico fence, instead of letting them just while away their time lifting weights and watching Oprah. SOUNDS TERRIFIC TO ME!

Okay, but if this happens then everyone who supports Goldwater's plan must promise not to whine about immigrants taking their jobs. Or is the formula here "it's bad if an immigrant willingly takes a job that could be done by an American, but it's good if an immigrant is forced to take a job that could be done by an American?"

[SY]

It's heartening to know, joe, that there are always skilled and sensitive people willing to step up and volunteer for the Racial Classification Authority.

[madpad]

So, this guy Goldwater wants to make non-violent incarcerated felons do an honest day's work and spend some time building an AZ / Mexico fence, instead of letting them just while away their time lifting weights and watching Oprah.

If the EFE piece was accurate (still no clear word on that) this is not what got the controversy going...just what Goldwater backed down too after the idea of putting illegals in forced labor camps met with stern reaction from both voters and fellow Republicans.

[joe]

"It's heartening to know, joe, that there are always skilled and sensitive people willing to step up and volunteer for the Racial Classification Authority."

And it's nice to know there will be so many people like you right there to deny that they are being racists when they do so.

YOU decided to start the conversation about race, SY, by declaring that hostility to Mexicans couldn't possibly be racist, in order to avoid discussion of why so many people react so happily to the vision of Mexicans in camps.

That it has blown up so humilitatingly in your face is not my problem.

[kwais]

No where in my plan to trade immigrants for welfare recipients is there forced anything. There is definately no forced military sevice.

The welfare recipients are given a free trip to Mexico, which they only take if they want to continue to recieve benefits.

[joe]

Here is the first comment seeking to racially classify Mexicans:

"Akira, I was under the impression that most Mexicans were Caucasians, at least predominantly. Take a look at a picture of Vicente Fox and report back."

It was written by you, SY.

[SY]

SY, by declaring that hostility to Mexicans couldn't possibly be racist, in order to avoid discussion of why so many people react so happily to the vision of Mexicans in camps.

Inaccurate. I said no such thing. I offered my alternative view, which you as a member of the Racial Police have conveniently chosen to ignore.

Here is the first comment seeking to racially classify Mexicans

Note Akira's post:

Because I don't think the nativists would be making batshit insane suggestions about putting immigrants in concentration camps if they where caucasians rather than latinos.

Since my post was a response, I'm troubled by the discarding of causality. Why don't you boys get your stories straight and report back?

[midbrowcrisis]

Here are some charming quotes from the other post about immigration - the one comparing letters sent to President Bush.

You be the judge whether these are racist or xenophobic:

"If you want to hire a Pakistani to clean your toilet, then I have nothing to say about it.

The problem is what the Pakistani does when he is not cleaning the toilet.

Like: Is he unwittingly spreading a communicable disease?

Does he, as he did in his village, urinate against the first tree or wall that he sees? It takes time to acculture people to proper sanitation.

Does his cultural tradition teach him that if a woman smiles him in greeting, it is a sexual invitation that he has to respond? Does he believe that he has a God-given right to grope any attractive female he sees, as long as she is not veiled?

Has he learned that garbage goes into the garbage can and not on the floor?

It is natural for oriental immigrants to catch the neighborhood cats and dogs for the pot"
(it is actually not at all the norm for oriental immigrants to do put the neighbor's cats and dogs, especially cats, into the pot. Finding an example does not demonstrate that it is natural or the norm. And it is not true that it is the norm, "natural" for orientals to do this in their own countries. It depends on the Asian country, what part of the country they are from, whether it is rural or urban, socio-economic status, etc. and it is also a practice that is slowly dying out where it is still practiced).

[John in Nashville]

Perhaps John McCain, as a result of his experience in South Carolina in 2000, knows a little something about "regular" Republicans' hatred of darker skinned folks. As President Lyndon Johnson is reported to have said, give a man somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.

How many of those who act so alarmed are complaining about immigrants coming across the Canadian border? By the way, how many of the September 11 hijackers entered this county through Mexico? How many entered through Canada?

Ironically, the progenitor of the modern day Republican Party is a Democrat--George Wallace.

[SY]

God, I hate defending Republicans. Sigh.

John, take a look at a picture of the Clinton Administration, the Cabinet and national security staff. Do the same with Bush. Now do the same with the families.

Shit, there are so many good reasons to criticize Republicans, why bother to make stuff up?

[thoreau]

Change "racism" to "irrational bigotry based on national origin" and I think the semantic issues can be resolved without changing the basic issues at hand.

[SY]

I'll follow you up to the "irrational" part. The aversion is rational (I think it's wrong and misplaced, but not irrational). Wherever there are large concentration of unassimilated non-English speakers, I see the same thing. Mexicans, Filipinos, Laotians, Koreans, Russians, whatever.

If we had a whole pile of non-English speaking Dutch, we'd hear people bitching about chocolate-breathed tulip-sniffers and their damned wooden shoes making a racket everywhere they go. Fuckin' Dutchies won't learn the language, they think that because of Peter Stuyvesant, we ought to roll over and turn New York back over to them.

[Jennifer]

The aversion is rational (I think it's wrong and misplaced, but not irrational). Wherever there are large concentration of unassimilated non-English speakers, I see the same thing. Mexicans, Filipinos, Laotians, Koreans, Russians, whatever.

What is "rational" about this aversion?

[Fraggle Rock]

You are right kwais. No conscription. Instead we give able bodied young men and women the choice between volunteering or else having benefits withdrawn for their whole family.

That would be nicer because it would instill a sense of duty toward family while, at the same time keeping things nice and voluntary.

Also, the US can require the military take and cure these malingerers in a way we cannot require Mexico to do. In that sense my version of the plan is much more practical.

Left right count off!

[joe]

thoreau,

The definition of racism embraces national origin and ethnic group as it is. Refusing to recognize this bigotry as racism is not just a semantic point, but an effort to rehabilitate that bigotry, make it look respectable, by disassociating it from the concept of racism.

Sort of like saying that your own prejudices, be they skin tone- or language-based, are rational, and not like those bad, irrational racists at all.

[joe]

The overly cute "you're the racist for noticing my racism" game can be a good gambit, SY, but you've just played it so miserably that it's fallen completely flat.

Following it up by saying it's not irrational to dislike and fear people for cultural or linguistic reasons - hell, lotsa people do it! - isn't a good move if you seriously want to make that smart-assed dodge work.

[kevrob]

SY:

Christopher Cerf and Henry Beard were onto the Gouda-gobblers years ago. See: Americans United To Beat The Dutch!

Kevin

[JW]

What a boffo idea, assuming you like ceding police state powers to an already over-powerful central guvmint. Heck, give it a couple years and we'll be a good proxy of China.

When they came for the mexicans...

Anyway, I will give the cultural anxiety some credence. We have a large part of the Saudi and Kuwaiti missions in our office building and there is something a bit unnerving to see a semi-large group, 20-30 people, of young Middle Eastern men, all talking with one another rapidly and loudly, complete with wild gesiculations. (Doesn't the Koran, have some prohibition againt smoking tobacco? Jeez, these guys are walking chimneys.) Even more fun to ride the elevator with 5 or 6 of them. A social bunch, they are.

Just the same, the concentration camps will open the door to so much official thuggery (wait for the surprise!), not directed at those spanish scoudrels, I may just go buy that shotgun I keep saying I should get. Might need it sooner than I think.

Some quick thinking soul should hook an electrical generator to Barry Goldwater's now-spinning corpse. Probably could light half of Phoenix with that kind of torque.

[Fraggle Rock]

kwais to new recruit: u r a maggot?

"recruit": what is a maggot

kwais: It is a baby fly, just like you.

"recruit": ur not very smart are you?

kwais: no, really I am not.

"recruit": hup two three four!

Kwais: gotta march! I luv this part of being in the military.

"Recruit": I will never go hungry agAIn!

kwais: R we invading Hungary? How can we conquer righteously with so many sponges here?

"Recruit": Just tell me who to shot and I will shoot her!

Kwais: Don't shoot anybody wher I might get in trubble later. Try to shoot enemy combatants where possible or at least intent to.

"recruit": Roger wilco.

[Fraggle Rock]

kwais: and don't torture unless you feel u really have to!

"recruit": I do feel like I really have to. I want to. That is a need of a sort.

kwais: then I order you to follow your best judgement and do what is neccessary to do to police the cocaine producing nation of Columbia.

"Recruit": Electrodes on.

[Fraggle Rock]

kwais: Why did you take welfare.

"recruit": I was lazy.

kwais: didn't you ever read Ayn rand books? She makes the duty to self reliance clear.

"recruit": but I can't read.

kwais: Neither can I really. It doesn't stop me from typing up total bullshit. Would you like to take a march with me?

"Recruit": Would I?!?!?!

kwais: don't forget to break stride on the bridge or we will collapse the structure and I will never get to start a law firm with Dr. T.

"recruit": who is Dr. T.?

Kwais: my hero, maggot! DROP AND GIVE ME TWENTY.

[Fraggle Rock]

kwais: I like to kill a lot!

"recruit": why?

Kwais: to protect America. Bring in the Mexicans. Deport the malingerers?

"recruit": what is a malingerer?

kwais: 99.9% of the people on gov't assistance. except for the student loans. They r hippies. And the soldiers. They are heroes.

"recruit": can I be a hero.

kwais: watch and learn. what r u doing later?

[Fraggle Rock]

kwais: I really have to go to the bathroom.

"recruit": then go.

Kwais: all over the HnR board I mean.

"recruit": I see no problem with that. Your naivete amuses me.

kwais: what is naivete?

"recruit": so we are going to meet later.

kwais: I would like that very much.

[Rick Barton]

If there's an afterlife, Barry Goldwater's nephew makes him nauseous.

A happy camp?

"Is it an evil camp?"

Yes.

[SY]

What is "rational" about this aversion?

(Noting my qualifier!)

Finding it difficult in your own country to place an order at a restaurant, to read signs, to ask directions, or to understand conversations around you can be an uncomfortable experience for many people. Couple it with the excessive news coverage of the inevitable noisy anti-assimilationist activist groups, the inevitable noisy "pride" groups, and the inevitable boogyman stories in the press, and someone without an historical view of immigration can easily come to a conclusion that "they're taking over." You might find this narrow and misguided (I do), but it is not "eeek a mouse!" irrational.

[Dave W.]

freer immigration policy will make the US more like it is here in Canada, for better or worse.

People with professional jobs will be subject to more competition and their wages will probably go down. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Steven Andrew Miller]

News Agency Apologizes to Ariz. Candidate
Jun 28 12:37 AM US/Eastern
By PAUL DAVENPORT
Associated Press Writer

(PHOENIX) A Spanish news agency apologized for a report that described a Republican gubernatorial candidate's proposed work program for illegal immigrants as "concentration camps."

The story last week caused an international stir when EFE, a national news agency of Spain, quoted candidate Don Goldwater as saying he wanted to hold undocumented immigrants in camps to use them "as labor in the construction of a wall and to clean the areas of the Arizona desert that they're polluting."

EFE Executive Vice President Emillio Sanchez said a freelance writer for the news agency inaccurately described Goldwater's plan.

"Upon further reflection, our investigation has determined that your plan to house illegal prisoners in a tent city is consistent with accepted practices for nonviolent American prisoners in your area," Sanchez said in the letter released Tuesday by Goldwater's campaign.

The letter also acknowledged that the freelance reporter never interviewed Goldwater or any of his staff for the story.

Sanchez confirmed the letter's contents when contacted by The Associated Press by phone on Tuesday.

Goldwater, nephew of the late Sen. Barry Goldwater, said he accepted EFE's apology and hopes that several Republican members of Arizona's congressional delegation also will apologize for criticizing him following the report.

Goldwater is one of four Republicans seeking his party's nomination to challenge Democratic Gov. Janet Napolitano.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/28/D8IH0FE80.html