Smarten Up on Public Schools This Friday

Check out John Stossel's next ABC News 20/20 special, "Stupid in America: How we are cheating our kids," which airs this Friday the 13th. From the press release:

Are kids in the United States being cheated out of a quality education? American high school students fizzle in international comparisons, placing well behind countries, even poorer countries like Poland, the Czech Republic and South Korea. American kids do pretty well when they enter public school, but as time goes on, the worse they do. Why? School officials complain that they need more money, but as John Stossel reports, most of the countries that outperform us spend less per student than we do. There are many factors that contribute to failure in school, but according to some, foremost is the government's monopoly over the school system, which means that most parents don't get to choose where to send their children. (more)

Comments

[joe]

Except for the part where the kids in South Korea also go to public schools, the thesis that we score worse than they do because our kids go to public schools is spot on.

[Jennifer]

Because schools have the attitude that self-esteem is more important than actual achievement, for one thing. So if you give me a badly written paper I can't tell you what is wrong with it and how to make it better, because doing so implies that what you did just isn't good enough.

Also, schools these days refuse to admit that there are actual differences in what kids can achieve, intellectually. I still remember one of the "teaching enrichment" classes I had to take, and what the professor told us about student achievement: "Ability doesn't matter; effort does." (I am not making this up.)

Also, we were in many cases supposed to grade on effort, not achievement. So if Mike Alissi effortlessly writes a flawless essay, and Joe Blow puts a lot of time and effort writing a piece of unrreadable crap, guess who is supposed to get the higher grade?

I taught high-school English, and was even told that grammar and spelling don't matter, so long as you can tell what the student is trying to say. Yeah, those kids will have great careers, won't they?

"Helo. I am riting to applie fur the job you had in the paper. You shud higher me cuz I kin do the job reel good." (You know what I'm trying to say here, don't you? So you can't criticize it.)

[Alan Vanneman]

Hmmmm. Our kids are losing to such bastions of private education as France and Japan, where there are virtually no private schools, where at 10 AM every six-year-old child will be studying the exact same thing. Maybe the quality of education in a country actually reflects the priorities of its citizens. Maybe Americans like to have their kids have fun rather than study. You can always catch up in community college or graduate school, right? Look at our president and vice president.

[Eddy]

Could it be because no child gets left/held behind? We can't have them feeling bad about themselves after all. On the other hand we could teach to the international test instead...provided it doesn't teach kids to think of course.

[science]

A combination of public and private educations is always going to be the right solution for most communities. Those communities would be wise to provide adequate support for both.

Totally unrelated here but check out this link.

http://news.com.com/Create+an+e-annoyance,+go+to+jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html

Apparently it is now a crime to annoy someone via the internet...

It's illegal to annoy

A new federal law states that when you annoy someone on the Internet, you must disclose your identity. Here's the relevant language.

"Whoever...utilizes any device or software that can be used to originate telecommunications or other types of communications that are transmitted, in whole or in part, by the Internet... without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any person...who receives the communications...shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

[Jennifer]

Oh, here's another goodie from that stupid class: tests and assignments should not be timed, because "in the real world, what matters is that you do a good job, not how much time it takes to do it."

So I mentioned a few real-world examples where time actually matters: you're on a bomb squad, and if you don't defuse the bomb in thirty seconds it will blow up. You're a paramedic, and if your patient doesn't start breathing in forty-five seconds he will have brain damage. Your taxes are due tomorrow, or else you'll pay penalties. You're a lawyer, and tomorrow you have to be ready to represent your client in court. . . . the teacher dismissed all of this. So long as you can get the job done, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to do it.

[joe]

I wonder what would happen if the international scores were normalized for recent immigrants and students from impoverished families?

A public middle school that raises the English reading level of a Spanish-speaking kid from zero to fifth grade level over three years is doing a much harder job than one that raises a native-Korean student from sixth to eigth grade over the same period, but the simple cross-tabulation of their 8th grade standardized scores would make the Korean school look much better.

[downstater]

i find the range of public education to be so broad as to make the ability to say "public schools fail kids" to be a pretty extreme generalization.

jennifer, my wife also teaches high school english in a public school. kids who write shitty papers get F's. there is no emphasis on self esteem or anything like that. quite the contrary - the almighty test scores unfortunately drive curriculum more and more and there is no self esteem section on those tests.

individual experiences will vary, but that is why such a generalization serves no use in my opinion.

if some public schools produce well educated graduates and some don't - is the problem really because the school that doesn't is public or is there something more at work there?

[Twba]

In primary education, on a per-pupil basis, the United States spent 66 percent more than Germany, 56 percent more than France, 27 percent more than Japan, 80 percent more than the United Kingdom, 62 percent more than Belgium, and 122 percent more than South Korea. High school figures were similar.

Money doesn't buy everything.

[Jennifer]

jennifer, my wife also teaches high school english in a public school. kids who write shitty papers get F's.

In which state does she teach?

I'll freely admit standards are different from state to state or city to city, and I also think the problem (at least with my experiences) has more to do with the philosophy of the school system, not the fact that it was public versus private.

Unfortunately, the crappy public school where I taught has a virtual monopoly on the area; even if you want to put your kids in a private school you still have to pay the taxes to support the public one.

[Eddy]

Jennifer, keep on like that and the poor nail will be stuck. A friend's wife teaches HS and she isn't allowed to correct english written in "txt msg" format! So now "b4 u go" is acceptable writing.

[dhex]

cue "they schools" by dead prez.

what kills me is the number of people in the teaching business - i work with someone who was a union rep and a teacher for 30 years - who don't see much of a problem with fucking over 5 talented kids for the sake of 50 who can't be bothered to learn sentence construction.

and we're not just talking about ESL folk here, obviously (though colleges are definitely exploiting people from other countries who do not have the english skills necessary). my wife tutors college students at fordham; some of the american born essays are often as bad or worse. not just stuff like tense changes, mind you, but complete and utter incoherence.

which explains a lot of the resumes we get here in the office, mind you, but still...

[Jennifer]

don't see much of a problem with fucking over 5 talented kids for the sake of 50 who can't be bothered to learn sentence construction.

Exactly. I had students who were capable of doing post-graduate work, but I had instead to give them 'high-school' work more appropriate for a ten-year-old. If I could choose just one thing to change about the public education system, it would be this asinine idea of age-segregation. It is ridiculous to think that if you and I are within six months of the same age, then that means we must have the exact same intellectual abilities.

[thoreau]

A new federal law states that when you annoy someone on the Internet, you must disclose your identity.

That could be problematic on Hit and Run.

[Jennifer]

If school athletic departments were run on the same philosophy as academic departments, then gym teachers would be expected to turn all of their students--even the wheelchair-bound quadriplegics--into professional NFL quarterbacks.

Whaddaya mean, a skinny little woman like me has no chance of becoming a pro football player? Ability doesn't matter; effort does.

[Curious]

Thank god the US public schools suck or I'd be wasting my time and money sending my kids to parochial schools! How else can I think the money is worthwhile if my kids can't outperform the average to get into an elite high school and college?

[mk]

There certainly is a problem with public schools, but I would use caution when reading how US students stack up compared to other countries.

For instance, I remember reading an article that claimed that US students tested very poorly compared to German students in high school level math. I had just happened to have arrived here from Germany at the time I read it and wondered who the German kids were that they had tested. All the German kids I knew didn't take math classes as they were in the school that taught them to be tradesmen (car mechanics and similar).
It turned out that the results were skewed due to the fact that all the American kids took math at that level whereas the kids who were still taking math courses in Germany were only the ones who had shown some talent for it earlier in their lives. Because they were the only ones taking the classes, they were the only ones counted.
In other words, "Public school" can mean vastly different things depending on where you are talking about.

[Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK)]

A new federal law states that when you annoy someone on the Internet, you must disclose your identity.

"That could be problematic on Hit and Run."

Not for me! I always post under my real name, especially when I'm writing about the lesbian schoolgirl orgies in Oklahoma's highschools. In fact, it's probably those orgies that are pulling down the test scores of America's youth!

[mk]

Of course, I would vote that forcing kids to study things that they clearly will never be good at might one of the reasons that German public schools actually are better than the American ones.

But I can't help but think that having your lifelong career trajectory set in stone at the age of 9 leaves a lot to be desired.

[Eddy]

tests and assignments should not be timed, because "in the real world, what matters is that you do a good job, not how much time it takes to do it."

Actually, that would explain a few things. The only thing done quickly by government is closing the door after Elvis leaves the building. Leaks of nuclear secrets, 9/11, Katrina, hoof and mouth, SARS, ad infinitum.

[Twba]

From the Washington Post: U.S. students had much higher confidence that they were doing well in math than did students in South Korea and Japan, even though their performance was significantly weaker.

The self esteem lessons seem to be working.

[Richard Tyler Brandt of Hollan]

Thoreau, you idiot.

[cliff]

I guess it's OK that most of our publically educated children will be stupid, as long as they are drug tested. That is the most important thing, you know, getting tested for drugs. It doesn't matter if they can't write an articulate paragraph or add and subtract without a calculator, just that they are drug free, yay. At least they feel good about themselves.

[theOneState]

because the money is attached to the student, the principal has to please the parents. And that makes a world of difference

Um...be careful. There are many parents you don't want to please, like the ones the yell at principal for suspending their kid who stabbed another kid with the scissors. Or the ones who demand good grades from the *teachers*. Etc.

[emme]

"Hmmmm. Our kids are losing to such bastions of private education as France and Japan, where there are virtually no private schools, where at 10 AM every six-year-old child will be studying the exact same thing. "

That's not totally true. There are plenty of private schools in Japan. In addition, Japanese students usually go to tutors and other private educational institutes in additional to their regular schooling. See: http://www.jref.com/society/japanese_educational_system.shtml

I have cousins in Greece who basically went through the same routine. Public school in the morning and afternoon, and then private school in the evenings. As far as which one is a finer institution . . .I'm not sure. I never asked them.

[Jennifer]

Also, when I taught English I had to offer alternative assignments for kids who had poor writing skills. Can't write an essay? Then make a pretty collage out of magazine pictures.

"How does the oppressive society of Oceania affect Winston Smith? I lack the vocabulary to tell you with words, but I think this interpretive dance piece will let you know."

There was also something called "Assistive Technology." Can't spell? Then the school will buy you a computer that will tell you how to spell the words properly. Can't read? Then when you take your tests the school will hire someone to read the questions to you.

[Eddy]

That could be problematic on Hit and Run.

Thoreau, it's just campaign finance reform all over again.

[mk]

My nine-year old couldn't read at all up to third grade. I sent her to Sylvan learning Center for 4 hours a week for 4 months and now she reads at a ninth grade level.
I can't say that it would work for all kids that well, but tutoring certainly made a world of difference for her. It cost me an arm and a leg, but it was the best money I've ever spent.

[Kevin]

Jennifer:

Going by his screen name, I'd guess downstater is from Illinois.

[Number 6]

MK-Seriously? What is it that Sylvan does differently?

[Eddy]

There was also something called "Assistive Technology."

At least the school was trying to make up for its failures.

"in the real world, what matters is that you do a good job, not how much time it takes to do it."

It just struck me how profound and hypocritical that mindset is. If it doesn't matter how long it takes, then one would assume that a kid would stay in 'n'th grade as long as it takes to do the job. Instead, the kids are pushed through as fast as possible to keep pace with their peers. Clearly the educators would agree that they are not doing a good job.

[Twba]

Joe: I wonder what would happen if the international scores were normalized for recent immigrants and students from impoverished families?

Lies, damned lies and statistics?

I wonder how our nineteen year-old high school freshman compare to their freshman.

[Mr. F. Le Mur]

The dirty little secret is that relative "school performance" is almost entirely a function of the demographics of the students in the school, not of the schools' policies, programs, methods, class sizes or expenditures. US schools with student demographics similar to Europe or Korea "perform" quite similarly to schools in Europe or Korea.
(IOW, Korean students in US schools perform like Korean students in Korean schools).

I used to have some better links to this info, which They don't like to publicize, but this will have to do for now:
http://www.schoolmatters.com/App/SES/SPSServlet/StaticMenuRequest?MenuType=naep_comparative_state_performance_2005_schoolmatters.shtml&MenuLevel=1
(note their coyness about demographics, and the desire to factor student demographics out of performance data).

[Jennifer]

If it doesn't matter how long it takes, then one would assume that a kid would stay in 'n'th grade as long as it takes to do the job. Instead, the kids are pushed through as fast as possible to keep pace with their peers.

I was told, strictly off-the-record and unofficially, that I shouldn't give failing grades to more than five seniors in a year, because otherwise they wouldn't graduate and we just didn't have the room to have them as students for another year. And when I had students who could only read at a sixth-grade level to start with. . . well, you can imagine how discouraging it was.

I remember one October, four weeks into the school year, I had a parent blame ME for the fact that her kid had such poor reading skills. Sure, lady, your kid was Einstein until I got hold of him last month. And the woman's husband refused to consider the possibility that maybe his son would have to spend some of his own time practicing his reading skills. The kid was a soccer player, so I tried to use a sports analogy: "You know that to be a good soccer player your son has to practice the game outside of gym class; the same holds true for reading."

Nope. Also, the parents insisted their kid would go to a four-year college. The kid's total GPA was a 1.3 (on a four-point scale), and that included the 'A's he got in gym class. So you can figure out what his academic grades were like.

[Warren]

I wonder how our nineteen year-old high school freshman compare to their freshman.

huh? To what are you referring? I thought the problem was that we pushed everybody through the system and handed them a diploma at 18. If they can read, write, and count by graduation, it's considered a bonus.

Where are these 19 year old freshmen? Have they been held back? However they stack up against other HS freshmen at least they're not being compared to HS graduates!

[downstater]

kevin's right.

i'd never say that public schools are without issues - even the best ones. but the fact is that some educate kids very well, and others are horrible jokes.

i just don't see the problems as stemming directly from a school's public nature.

education seems to be the only realm where personal responsibility is selective. if a kid fails in public school - it's because of the school. if he succeeds in private school - it's because of the school. but if he succeeds in public school or fails in private school, is it also because of the school? i doubt most people would say so.

[science]

"the teacher dismissed all of this. So long as you can get the job done, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to do it...."

Although there are time-based tasks, not all are time-based. Is it reasonable to require that a child perform a non-time-based task under time pressure?

I think the term "get the job done" implicates that it is done to meet all required parameters. If there are time pressures as part of the job, then you can't "get it done" without meeting those time pressures. Flexible rules are required to be sensitive to contextual issues of this sort. Don't argue about absolutes that don't exist. Education is not a sink or swim proposal. It is about maximizing potential. Not all have equal potential for all tasks, but they deserve the opportunity to learn, even if it takes them longer. The school system can provide for flexible criteria of success to support the educational process in ways that support later performance in the real world.

None of this has anything to do with funding sources. If you are not happy with the quality of schools in your community, get involved and learn something about the educational process to help find a solution. Funding is not, usually, the issue (whether private or public).

Remember also that school teachers are the 2nd largest category of workers in this country, so you would expect there to be a fair amount of variation in talent. If you have problems with the way the system works, solutions come from supporting and training teachers, not infusing profit motivation into the mix.

[Twba]

Where are these 19 year old freshmen?

There was one in my high school. He dropped out to take a job hanging drywall. I went to a shitty school where it did not take much to graduate, but it was still possible to fail.

[Randolph Carter]

"How does the oppressive society of Oceania affect Winston Smith? I lack the vocabulary to tell you with words, but I think this interpretive dance piece will let you know."

That's some powerful irony

[thoreau]

"How does the oppressive society of Oceania affect Winston Smith? I lack the vocabulary to tell you with words, but I think this interpretive dance piece will let you know."

Of course they lack the vocabulary. Newspeak is the only language in the world whose vocabulary gets smaller every year.

[js]

Ability vs effort is a huge false dichotomy. A strong case could be made that effort (time and energy efficiently applied) is the single largest determinant of ability. But yes, grading effort instead of ability rewards inefficiency whatever else it does.

[Jennifer]

Although there are time-based tasks, not all are time-based. Is it reasonable to require that a child perform a non-time-based task under time pressure?

Is it unreasonable to say that a kid who needs an hour to solve a math problem that his peers can do in five minutes may not be very good at math?

What is it that Sylvan does differently?

My guess is this: parents who take their kids to Sylvan know that the kid needs help in learning a particular skill. Therefore, the parents want Sylvan to teach that skill, not talk about how the kid is just fine the way he is.

[shecky]

The big temptation is to treat education as something that could be fixed from the top down. Truth is that you can't force a good eduacation down a kid's throat if he has no interest in being taught. Motivated students, on the other hand, seem bound to succeed regardless of how bad their school may be.

[js]

Public schools in the u.s. IS too large a generalization to be meaningful. Some are pretty good many are pretty aweful.

What annoys me is the aweful ones continue to be aweful year after year and absolutely nothing changes. The teachers remain entrenched in their jobs, the politicians entrenched in their offices, and the students stuck in bad schools - generation after generation. I suppose if I tried not to care at all about even attempting to provides semi-decent educational opportunities for young people maybe I'd be happy go lucky about it.

[Cantakerous Old Bastard]

I think we should stop this new fangled practice of allowing women to excel at whatever career they wish and pay them crappy wages to only work as teachers and nurses.

Look what these feminazis have done to the education and health care fields!!!!

[dhex]

"solutions come from supporting and training teachers, not infusing profit motivation into the mix."

man, i gotta take some pictures of those superintendent meetings. those cars are fuckin' sweet!

what i'm trying to say is that there is a profit motivation already at work. what's the incentive to fix the public school system when even egregious failures - like the new york school system as a whole - are so intricately constructed. there's plenty of profit motive; what we lack is corrective action.

like i've said more than a few times, when you compare the curriculum of an elite private school with a public school you begin to understand who is doing what and why; those who would be part of the ruling class don't have too much of a fixation on self-esteem, because people who live in the brick and mortar real world realize that there's no time for something so utterly retarded.

who learns philosophy and who reads at a 6th grade level?

[Rhywun]

It turned out that the results were skewed due to the fact that all the American kids took math at that level whereas the kids who were still taking math courses in Germany were only the ones who had shown some talent for it earlier in their lives.

You just pointed out the biggest failure of American education. Why are we teaching trigonometry to kids who clearly won't benefit from it? The answer seems to be that we don't want our schools to be "elitist".

[Jennifer]

The problem with merit pay for teachers is what shecky said before--today's official educational philosophy refuses to admit that the student has any role to play in his own education. The idea is that a teacher can pour knowledge into the kid's head the way a bartender pours a drink into a glass--despite the "effort vs. ability" idea, there isn't even lip service paid to the notion that if a kid just plain doesn't want to learn anything, the best curricula and best teachers in the world will have no effect.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, and you can lead a kid to knowledge but you can't make him think.

[science]

Hmmm

"because people who live in the brick and mortar real world realize that there's no time for something so utterly retarded."

I live in a reinforced steel and concrete world, but...

Self-esteem comes from learning skills. Good educators have always known that. Trying to build self-esteem as a goal is not the problem. It is the methods used by poor educators that are the problem. Good elite schools build lots of self-esteem (you are better than everyone 'cuz you go to this school...). Look at Bush or Kerry for examples of how elite schools provide ability rather than attitude.

[Ben]

In a study a couple of years ago, Germany came out below the U.S. and most other countries. I can't remember what the study was called. Named for an Italian city or something.

This totally freaked out Germany.

German "high school" is divided into three different groups based on ability. The university prep school is called "gymnasium." The other ones prepare for careers or less intensive higher education. Definitely a better idea than the U.S. system of pushing everyone into a college preparatory track.

[Jason Ligon]

I can speak to the Japanese educational system:

1) It is public/private. Every student I had in my private ESL school also went to a private 'juku' or school after school in addition to their public school classes.

2) They cut the fat, as it were. Educational resources and high quality schools are targeted only at those students who they believe have the potential to succeed in those environments. If you do poorly on a test in the 6th grade, you will be diverted to a high school in the lower tier, and it is very difficult to impossible to recover from that. Top universities get students only from top high schools, and top employers only hire from top universities. Parents have been known to off themselves if their boy screws up the wrong test in middle school. There is no old folks home - kids take care of their aging parents (they move in). This means that parents can lean on young boys very very hard to perform at very young ages.

3) Their entreprenurial spirit is crap. The whole system is based on job security, such that the best educated students vie for spots at the largest companies.

4) Their university system doesn't do much except for professional degree holders. For the average student, we make up the difference with much higher quality undergrad programs. The common wisdom of the eager beaver students is that slack university work is a reward for busting your ass throughout k-12.

All this stuff is changing, and there is a lot of fall out in the generation wars. Companies no longer guarantee lifetime employment and kids don't have much time for the Confucian hierarchy that their parents formed the whole society around. I can only report what life was like in about 1996.

[emme]

"The big temptation is to treat education as something that could be fixed from the top down. Truth is that you can't force a good eduacation down a kid's throat if he has no interest in being taught. Motivated students, on the other hand, seem bound to succeed regardless of how bad their school may be. "

Nonsense. I fuckin hated going to school. But I knew that if I didn't bring home at least a C average my parents wouldn't stop bitching. So I got my C average just so they'd shut their traps.

As long as you just hang in there by the time you graduate high school you'll be fine. Hopefully by then you'll mature a little and realize that grades matter. During college you could put forth more effort because you'll realize that you have to in order to more easily make something out of yourself.

"Motivated students, on the other hand, seem bound to succeed regardless of how bad their school may be. "

I'm not sure about this either. My friend's dad teaches in a inner city chicago public school. The bright ones who actually want to learn are ripped a new one like you wouldn't believe by their fellow thugged out students. This is obviously anecdotal evidence and I'm not trying to generalize, but if that's the environment you're in how the fuck are you supposed to learn anything?

[thoreau]

You just pointed out the biggest failure of American education. Why are we teaching trigonometry to kids who clearly won't benefit from it? The answer seems to be that we don't want our schools to be "elitist".

Rhywun, you may be right about trigonometry. However, we should remember that basic academic subjects do matter for career education: American businesses are bitching about employees who can neither think in terms of numbers nor construct a readable sentence.

And I used to teach an applied science class at a fairly elite private career school (college level, not high school). The one complaint echoed by EVERY instructor, regardless of subject, is that the first year students didn't take a writing class until they'd been in college for 8 months. (We taught in sessions of 2 months rather than semesters of 8 months, so they took 2 classes per session for 8 credits per session, rather than 4 classes per semester for 16 credits.) They took one class in their major and one general education class every session, and for some asinine reason the writing class was scheduled for their 5th session.

Maybe most high school students don't need trig and Shakespeare, but they do need better math, English, and science classes. Reading, writing, and quantitative thinking are crucial skills for almost any career. And applied science classes are crucial supplements for many career programs. My students were all very creative and technically proficient, but they couldn't write to save their lives.

[Twba]

Rhywun,

In many American high schools, few students make it to trig. Check out the number of kids who enter school and then compare to how many graduate. About thirty percent don't finish.

[Danielle]

I've been a public school teacher for twelve years, and I'll be the first to admit that there are many, many problems with the American education system that are in serious need of correction. I favor school choice and do not favor teachers' unions.

That said, he idea that teachers allow administrators to bully them into poor pedagogy such as "collages" and "interpretive dances" as acceptable alternatives to rigorous academic work is absurd to me. I realize that there are plenty of teachers who nod their heads in faculty meetings when directives are given, then go back to their classrooms, close the doors, and let the kids sail through school doing mediocre work at best.

Yet there must be some of us who nod our heads in faculty meetings, close our doors, and push the kids to achieve excellence, and accept nothing less, even if we have to risk our jobs to do it. There have to be some of us out here who are willing to stand up to parents and administrators and explain that we're not doing kids any favors by accepting sub-par work or presenting sub-par curriculum.

School reform doesn't happen because teachers accept the status quo.

[David]

You just pointed out the biggest failure of American education. Why are we teaching trigonometry to kids who clearly won't benefit from it? The answer seems to be that we don't want our schools to be "elitist".

Worse than that, we punish the kid who fails at trig(or whatever subject serves no purpose to him) on his transcript, making it difficult for him to pursue the subjects that he does excel at. All of which is strange, considering how specialized we expect people to be later in life.

[thoreau]

CORRECTION:

(We taught in sessions of 2 months rather than semesters of 4 months, so they took 2 classes per session for 8 credits per session, rather than 4 classes per semester for 16 credits.)

Me no good with numburz.

[dhex]

"Good elite schools build lots of self-esteem (you are better than everyone 'cuz you go to this school...)."

i disagree. their entire environmental upbringing is engaged in pushing forth offspring to rule and defeat their peers, or at the very least, to rapaciously cling to whatever structure their forefathers built/created/stole/etc and not fuck up too badly.

the good elite schools don't build self-esteem - they provide a do-or-die situations and expectations.

ever see the movie mad hot ballroom? not only is that program a tremendous good, but the film didn't shy away from the fact that kids who had tried really hard - and who live in not great neighborhoods and families in many cases - ended up "failing" in the sense they didn't win first place. but they succeeded in dozens of other ways; the woman i was discussing this with was a professor very deeply on the side of "self-esteem" and she actually thought it was horrible for these kids to go out and compete. she doesn't feel, as i do, that success is meaningless without challenge, and without the threat of failure.

otherwise, what motivates us?

the world is filled with competition. pretending it isn't so just makes it that much harder for the percentage of non-fuckups in public schools to succeed to the best of their abilities. in some cases, i think this woman's attitude is the prevailing attitude, and that's a detriment to everyone.

[Jennifer]

That said, he idea that teachers allow administrators to bully them into poor pedagogy such as "collages" and "interpretive dances" as acceptable alternatives to rigorous academic work is absurd to me.

If you've been teaching for twelve years then you likely have tenure, which means you can't be fired for silly things like "objective standards." But where I taught, you couldn't get tenure until you'd been there for three years, and that three-year period was a time for the administrators to find the squeaky wheels and get rid of them. (I only lasted the three years.)

I'll admit, that "interpretive dance" thing I wrote was a sarcastic joke. But I was told to accept things like collages and dioramas in lieu of essays and term papers, for certain students. Don't get me wrong--I think students with artistic ability should be taught how to make the most of it. I'm just saying that an English literature, grammar and composition class is not the place to do it. And furthermore, that the ability to draw a pretty picture or cut and glue pictures into an attractive collage is not a real-world substitute for the ability to read and understand something, and express your thoughts in words.

[Twba]

Sure, South Korean students are scoring better on a math test, BUT DO THEY DRINK BEER ON FRIDAY NIGHT?

[Eddy]

you can lead a kid to knowledge but you can't make him think.

Jennifer, mind if I steal that? I've been having trouble keeping up with the MLA citation standards.

[MP]

You just pointed out the biggest failure of American education. Why are we teaching trigonometry to kids who clearly won't benefit from it? The answer seems to be that we don't want our schools to be "elitist".

There was a fantastic article on the history of High School education in the US in the most recent issue of Education Next. It discussed the genesis of the College Preparatory vs. Trades tracks in High Schools. There was a lot of good backstory that I was totally unfamiliar with. It is worth a read for anyone curious High Schools.

[thoreau]

Don't get me wrong--I think students with artistic ability should be taught how to make the most of it. I'm just saying that an English literature, grammar and composition class is not the place to do it.

The best among those students wound up in my optics class at an elite photography school. And they had to write a paper where 50% of the grade was based on the scientific and technical content, 25% was based on their quality visual presentation (should be an easy A for them, but some are lazy), and 25% was based on their writing skills.

And you know what? My administrators backed me to the hilt on that. We were a career school. Yes, it was a school for artistic careers, but we're still talking about careers. Bosses and clients don't like unreadable sales pitches, memos, progress reports, price quotes, etc.

[thoreau]

EDIT:

25% was based on the quality of their visual presentation and how effectively they integrated images into the text

If I'm going to complain about poor writing schools I feel obligated to edit my posts.

[Danielle]

My school district doesn't have tenure. I can be fired at any time. And, I didn't join the teachers' union, so I have no pretend support system should my practices ever be called into question.

I totally knew your "interpretive dance" comment was made in jest - I even laughed! My point is that this kind of administrative bullying happens all the time, everywhere, and teachers let it happen because many teachers are terrified of being fired. I've seen absolute crap hanging on bulletin boards with a big, fat, red A adorning the top of the paper that wasn't duly earned. Any teacher worth their salt wouldn't ever let that happen.

Unfortunately, too many good educators (anyone can be a teacher, really - it's not that hard) jump ship because they get fed up with this kind of nonsense, and public schools continue to go downhill.

If I had my way, I'd bring back tracking. One step at a time...

[Rhywun]

Check out the number of kids who enter school and then compare to how many graduate.

I don't have time to read that very long article you linked to, but... one has to wonder why there aren't more alternatives to either "graduate and go to college" or "drop out and flip burgers at McDonalds". The big problem IS school choice; it's just that libertarians want to frame it as a public/private issue when I believe it's more a problem of lack of choice in curriculum.

[zero]

Jennifer:
Your idea about grouping students by ability not age group was tried at my grade school in Bellevue Iowa in the mid to late 70's. All the students in the grade school were given a standardized test and then grouped by ability for English instruction. I remember feeling a little intimidated by having to be in a class with fifth and sixth grade students. I also think some of the older students were probably not happy being put a class with predominately younger students. I don't know if they still split students by ability.

[Jennifer]

I've seen absolute crap hanging on bulletin boards with a big, fat, red A adorning the top of the paper that wasn't duly earned. Any teacher worth their salt wouldn't ever let that happen.

I gave bad grades to students and then would be ordered by the administrators to change the grades. The only way a kid could fail in my school was if his parents were unwilling to make a stink. At my high school a high-school diploma was viewed almost like the right to vote--once you reach a certian age, it is automatically given to you.

At the middle school the kids attended before reaching my high school it was even worse--apparently kids were allowed to re-take tests as many times as necessary, in order to pass. Terry Schiavo could have earned an A average at that school.

[Twba]

I don't have time to read that very long article you linked

I'm sorry about that. Here's the bad news:

The national graduation rate for the class of 1998 was 71%. For white students the rate was 78%, while it was 56% for African-American students and 54% for Latino students. Georgia had the lowest overall graduation rate in the nation with 54% of students graduating, followed by Nevada, Florida, and Washington, D.C. Iowa had the highest overall graduation rate with 93%, followed by North Dakota, Wisconsin, and Nebraska.

[Jennifer]

certian = certain.

But hey, you know what I meant so it really wasn't a problem, huh?

[Jennifer]

I also think some of the older students were probably not happy being put a class with predominately younger students.

Which hurt their self-esteem, no doubt. Just because you can't read is no reason to feel bad about it, right?

[butterbarrel]

allow students to take whatever classes they want to take ... if they fail, they fail

[Rhywun]

The national graduation rate for the class of 1998 was 71%.

What that tells me, is that a lot of kids are going to the wrong schools. They're dropping out, flipping burgers for awhile and/or having a couple kids, then if they can scrape up enough money they'll go to a trade school which should have been a choice during their high school years.

[David]

I gave bad grades to students and then would be ordered by the administrators to change the grades. The only way a kid could fail in my school was if his parents were unwilling to make a stink.

I wonder if the way people view grades contibutes to the problem. Rather than a grade being a mark of what you know, and what you need to learn, they're more like prize medals. I think that leads to the mentality of "What can I do to get an A." and the pursuit of the grade rather than the knowledge that the grade is supposed to represent.

[Jennifer]

I agree, David, that the grading system needs to be changed. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing grades scrapped altoghether, and replaced by tests to see what the kids actually know.

[bubba]

It was a long time ago, but my high school had at least 3 separate tracks. Not only did (does?) Texas offer different diplomas with different requirements, but kids were split into honors classes, "regular" classes and "shop" classes. The less inclined students could spend 1/2 of each day, their senior year, as an apprentice somewhere.

[Ig]

I notice there is very little said in this thread about the parental responsibility regarding a child's education. I agree that much of the tripe being passed for education in P.S.#XXX is daunting, but often even in the crappy schools, the kids who do well do so because their parents take an active role in their childs education from early on. Private schools as well as the Sylvan type alternatives are typically comprised of students whose parents are predisposed to be involved, hence their selection of alternative education at a higher expense. IOW, they see the value to the extent that they're willing to pony up for it.

[Twba]

They're dropping out, flipping burgers for awhile and/or having a couple kids, then if they can scrape up enough money they'll go to a trade school... or buy a bitchin' Camaro with a 350 four barrel.

[Danielle]

Oh, man. I'm glad you brought up grade-changing. We have this debate in our house all the time about vouchers, school choice, and getting government out of public education... I'll pose this question to see what everyone else thinks.

I'm now painting with too broad a brush when I say many schools are dictated by the will of the parents. As Jennifer said, administrators force the hand of good teachers to change grades when parents voice their (loud) displeasure.

Let's say for the sake of argument that government schools are replaced with privately run institutions of learning, devoid of heavy-handed teachers' unions, political interests, and government funds based on expected performance.

In this scenario, to what degree will parents have 'control' over grades, etc.? Would schools be as willing to bend to the demands of parents not to damage wittle Biwwy's precious self-esteem by giving him an F? Anyone working in a charter school, for example, that can give insight? I certainly don't have all the answers but I'm interested in the discussion.

[nmg]

The system is fine! It's just that we need the right people in charge. If we could only get the right people to run things, everything would be great. There's NO need to talk about changing anything with the way public education works in the US. We just need to vote in the right people and things will go smoothly and beautifully, without waste or corruption and without leaving a single child behind.

Right?

nmg

[Danielle]

That was supposed to say "I'm not painting with too broad a brush..." So much for my fantastic editing skills.

[Jennifer]

In this scenario, to what degree will parents have 'control' over grades, etc.? Would schools be as willing to bend to the demands of parents not to damage wittle Biwwy's precious self-esteem by giving him an F?

[Jennifer]

That was supposed to say "I'm not painting with too broad a brush..." So much for my fantastic editing skills.

Just so long as you feel good about your editing skills, is all that matters.

[Ig]

Dannielle, I agree there is some element of the parental $$$ influence at private school. I have Teen-agers & a five yr old. They have been in private as well as public schools. In private school you do see a certain amount of that. In fact there are some kids that are in private because they've been booted from public, but as a percentage, they are a smaller group and are handled better by the staff than in public where so many of the kids are just there as a form of day care. (bit of a run on sentence, sorry, I'll take my lumps from Jennifer and the other English teachers now)

[Danielle]

That depends on whether parents view school as a place where their kids get an education, or a place where kids get grades.

Exactly, Jennifer. Right now, many people know that they can moan and complain about grades and something will be done because a) the public school has to take the kid, and b) the public school doesn't want bad press so they'll change the grade rather than expel the kid based on academic failure.

So as I see it, two things can happen in a privatized education system. 1) Replication of what's already happening in public schools, because enrollment = dollars. 2) Parents of kids who repeatedly fail out of school after school will realize that it's not the school, it's the kid, and commence with some at-home academic ass-kicking.

[Eddy]

In this scenario, to what degree will parents have 'control' over grades, etc.? Would schools be as willing to bend to the demands of parents not to damage wittle Biwwy's precious self-esteem by giving him an F?

It would be more like Yale and Harvard. Each new room to the library gets 1 letter grade for the year, a wing is 2 letter grades for the nominal four years and a new laboratory building or observatory is Dean's list baby with an edge on Summa Cum.

[happyjuggler0]

There is more than one thing going on here.

For starters, there are indeed countries that send their kids into voacational training instead of an academic track,and this skews the results of international comparisons.

There are countries around the world that consistently rank high (many, but not all, Asian countries) on the standardized tests, and those that rank low (Latin America). If you take a look at what the difference is, it seems to be in large part to a cultural understanding that education is "their ticket". If you take a peek at how immigrants, and children of immigrants in the US do in school, those students from the Asian countries do better than the ones from Latin countries. Why? Their parents demand the kids learn and take school seriously.

The suburbs in the US all outperform their respective cities in pretty much every measure of publicschool perfomance. There are two main reasons for this. 1) The parents demand their kids learn, at least more often than the urban parents do. They are also more likely to help with homework and have the financial resources to hire tutors when their kids ar elagging, or when their kids show special talent. 2) The parents demand that the schools perform. The way it works is that new parents who have some amount of decent income search out towns with good school systems. They then move to those towns. The towns have a huge incentive to perform highly, or the property prices suffer. The school systems are much smaller units, and are therefore more accountable to angry parents that complain about subpar teaching. At the same time, in the urban school system, there seems to be no accountability, and not nearly enough parents demanding that it be accountable.

In short, not all US public schools suck. Just mostly the urban school systems, and quite possibly the rural ones too. At the same time, the parents of kids that have failed to learn have a heaping of blame to take for it.

How do we get those failing schools to ramp up dramatically in quality? How do we get parents who don't put an emphasis on their kids' learning to do an about face in attitude?

My vote is for our cities to sell off all the schools, and hand all parents tuition vouchers to be used at any school anywhere. Put the parents in charge of comparison shopping, and it may occur to them to try to get their money's worth. Put the schools in a position where they will be held accountable, and then just like their suburban counterparts, they will indeed find a way to perform.

[Bonar Law]

"The common wisdom of the eager beaver students [in Japan] is that slack university work is a reward for busting your ass throughout k-12."

I can't buy this line about Japanese schools being so academically rigorous and difficult. If that were the case, how come the students have so much free time in which to ride around in giant robots, not to mention fighting vampires, ogres, cyborgs, etc?

[Twba]

If Asian students are doing well in Asian schools and American schools, are we overlooking a genetic component to academic success?

[thoreau]

Regarding grades, pushy parents, and private schools, I have a couple anecdotes.

First, I went to a Catholic grade school. They wouldn't change grades for anybody. You do NOT mess with the nuns. They may have a much softer exterior than the stereotypes, but they do NOT compromise.

I also taught at a private, for profit college. They were known to bow to pushy parents on the advice of the school lawyers. Of course, after doing that they would immediately insert new language into syllabi, handbooks, etc. so that they didn't have to bow again.

I'd advise sending your kids to a private school that's either (a) run by nuns who never compromise or (b) run by people with really, really good lawyers, so they don't have to compromise.

[dhex]

speaking of parental bitching:

i have a friend who is the advisor for the film program at a very large and very expensive private university in new york city. each year he notices more and more parents calling in not only to request grades (which he can't release without the written consent of the student, which don't happen to offin') but to bitch him out for not paying more attention to their dear child's academic behavior.

[Jennifer]

If Asian students are doing well in Asian schools and American schools, are we overlooking a genetic component to academic success?

No, we're overlooking a cultural component. Asian parents think it's their kids' responsibility to find their place in the world, whereas American parents think it's the world's responsibility to make a place for their kid.

[Cauky]

If Asian students are doing well in Asian schools and American schools, are we overlooking a genetic component to academic success?

The average IQ of Asians is about 4 points higher than Caucasians. That's not enough to explain the difference in academic achievments between the two groups.

[happyjuggler0]

Anyone who think skin pigmentation is correlated with brain function needs a biology lesson. And also needs to look deeper, such as cultural expectations and demands.

[Eric the .5b]

If Asian students are doing well in Asian schools and American schools, are we overlooking a genetic component to academic success?

Why the leap to genetics while ignoring culture? These kids aren't excelling because they have "heavy studying" genes, they're excelling because their parents expect them to study hard and get on their cases when they don't.

[Timothy]

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing grades scrapped altoghether, and replaced by tests to see what the kids actually know.

Some friends of mine from Portland went to a school like that...it worked out okay, I guess, but I don't know too much about the particulars.

My most similar experience was my advanced microecon analysis prof in college. He always weighted the final more heavily because it was comprehensive exam and he figured he wanted you to know so much about micro econ by the end of the term and didn't care all that much the transition path.

[Timothy]

...didn't care all that much about the transition path.

I are smart.

[emme]

"Anyone who think skin pigmentation is correlated with brain function needs a biology lesson. "

Arthur Jensen would disagree.

[smacky]

It's illegal to annoy

A new federal law states that when you annoy someone on the Internet, you must disclose your identity. Here's the relevant language.

"Whoever...utilizes any device or software that can be used to originate telecommunications or other types of communications that are transmitted, in whole or in part, by the Internet... without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any person...who receives the communications...shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

Some of us on H&R could potentially be a lot of trouble. (cough, coughgarygunnelsstevencrane cough, cough) Just so you all know, it was never really I who was annoying any of you...it was the gnome who lives in my ear who told me to type all of those things.

[John Mack]

Are we too worried about the overall qualilty of eduction? Doesn't our "national health" really depend upon the delivery of the relevant level of education to the people being educated? Our graduate and professional schools are the best in the world, and our scholars and professionals are accodringly world-class. Our colleges vary widely in quality, but can provide first-rate educations for those who have the interest in using them. Our high schools are poor except for the top rung of students, but so what? That top rung will get the needed education after high school, and the rest probably will not need the "frosting" that a first-rate education would provide anyway. There are only so many slots in a given economy that professions can fill; that PhD's can fill; that the liberally educated can fill, etc. Educating others beyond their desires, needs and capacities is a waste of resources. Ironic as it may seem, America's educational system may be remarkably effecient at producing the level of educational competence necessary to perform the social roles appropriate to the country, and at doing so with economic efficiency.

[Hairy]

"Anyone who think[s] skin pigmentation is correlated with brain function needs a biology lesson."

There is no difference in skin pigmentation between Asians and Caucasians. But Caucasians are hairier.

[mk]

Number 6,

I don't know what they were doing in those tutoring sessions. Parents weren't allowed in the teaching areas. I don't know why that was, but I can make a few guesses 🙂

I do know that there was a rewards system. Kids did x amount of work and earned points. With enough points they could get a toy or something. Cheap crap, but stuff that they liked.

I also know that the kids went in to study, say, writing. That's all they did - write, with the tutor hanging over them the whole time helping them. The tutors seemed like an intelligent bunch. None of them were teachers during the day and I don't think that you needed to have any kind of special certification. You just had to be smart at the subject that you tutored in and like kids.

Like I said, it worked for my kid, but she really did want to learn how to read. She loved fantasy stories and the like. My brother sent his child to Sylvan and they told him that he was wasting his money. The kid refused to do anything.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Intelligence is a distinct trait among countless traits. To believe that race has anything to do with intelligence is to believe that brain-power is genetically linked to something as arbitrary as skin color. This doesn't make sense.

Except for Eskimos. I believe every one of them share a fixed set of traits that make them untrustworthy, shiftless, and extremely violent (especially towards seals, elk, and polar bears). And if you ever spot a 'mo a fiver, you might as well kiss it goodbye. Bastards.

[science]

"My vote is for our cities to sell off all the schools, and hand all parents tuition vouchers to be used at any school anywhere. Put the parents in charge of comparison shopping, and it may occur to them to try to get their money's worth. Put the schools in a position where they will be held accountable, and then just like their suburban counterparts, they will indeed find a way to perform."

This would not change the situation positively (check out the performance of the districts/cities/states who have tried), or a least not necessarily. It would, most likely, result in an increased distance between the haves and have-nots in the society. Public education is about providing an opportunity to learn for anyone who wants it. It is not about providing the assurance that any particular child will learn. Keeping an eye on the opportunity to learn (and creating environments that actually provide that opportunity) has little to do with what the funding source is.

[Mo giggity]

The world needs ditch diggers too.....

[Jennifer]

Public education is about providing an opportunity to learn for anyone who wants it.

I have no problem with that; unfortunately, public school these days is also a place to warehouse kids who don't want to learn a damned thing, but have to be kept off the streets until they are eighteen.

[joe]

'"Anyone who think skin pigmentation is correlated with brain function needs a biology lesson. "'

'Arthur Jensen would disagree.'

Not to mention Charles Murray...

Mistah Niceguy,

That was very insensitive. The untrustworthy, shiftless, violent, drunken louts prefer to be called "Inuit." You...racist...BASTARD!

[happyjuggler0]

Science,

I was not aware that any cities in the US sold off all their schools. I do know there are various cities that have tried various methods that try to incorporate vouchers for a small amount of students, and still have government run most schools though.

I find it amazing that everyone acknowledges that a government run company in autos, publishing, computers, televions, design, movie production, restaurants, etc. is not going to be as good as a privately run version of the same. Why do we think education will be different?

[MP]

I have no problem with that; unfortunately, public school these days is also a place to warehouse kids who don't want to learn a damned thing, but have to be kept off the streets until they are eighteen.

See the article I linked to above...

"The economic crisis [of the Great Depression] and the resulting enrollment boom combined to produce a profoundly important shift in the nature and function of high schools. Increasingly, their task was custodial, to keep students out of the adult world (that is, out of the labor market) instead of preparing them for it."

[mk]

Happyjuggler0,
Because you can't just move the public school system school to India?

I'm just guessing here 🙂

[happyjuggler0]

http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/schoolchoice/index.html

Note: the universal vouchers system seems to not be employed anywhere in the US according to the lack of examples under that category.

FAQ #1 seems to contradict the claim that vouchers don't work. If you disagree with Milton Friedman's facts, you can take it up with him. He knows more about it than I do. 🙂

[Blue Baby]

To believe that race has anything to do with intelligence is to believe that brain-power is genetically linked to something as arbitrary as skin color.

Skin color is not arbitrary. To play off of a George Carlin joke, "Why are their no blue babies?" Your skin color comes from your parents, their parents, and so on. Why would you think your intelligence doesn't?

[Jamie Kelly]

Mo Giggity, don't fuck with me. I've got that movie memorized. Every last word. And I've always wanted to be a golf club.

[John]

"But then I began to think, what else is there that we believe? (And I thought then about the witch doctors, and how easy it would have been to check on them by noticing that nothing really worked.) So I found things that even more people believe, such as that we have some knowledge of how to educate. There are big schools of reading methods and mathematics methods, and so forth, but if you notice, you'll see the reading scores keep going down--or hardly going up--in spite of the fact that we continually use these same people to improve the methods. There's a witch doctor remedy that doesn't work. It ought to be looked into; how do they know that their method should work? Another example is how to treat criminals. We obviously have made no progress--lots of theory, but no progress--in decreasing the amount of crime by the method that we use to handle criminals.

Yet these things are said to be scientific. We study them. And I think ordinary people with commonsense ideas are intimidated by this pseudoscience. A teacher who has some good idea of how to teach her children to read is forced by the school system to do it some other way--or is even fooled by the school system into thinking that her method is not necessarily a good one. Or a parent of bad boys, after disciplining them in one way or another, feels guilty for the rest of her life because she didn't do "the right thing," according to the experts.

So we really ought to look into theories that don't work, and science that isn't science.

I think the educational and psychological studies I mentioned are examples of what I would like to call cargo cult science. In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to make things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head to headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas--he's the controller--and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land."

From Richard Feynman, famous Cargo Cult Science Commencement address at CalTech

I think this speaks to people like Joe who continue to defend the public school beaurocracy.

Yes, Joe, just build the control tower a little higher this time and I am sure the planes will come.

[smacky]

Some of us on H&R could potentially be ina lot of trouble.

I'm beginning to think it's requisite to have at least one typo on this thread about education. Makes us all look stupid that way, I guess.

Or the ones who demand good grades from the *teachers*. Etc.

Not all parents who demand good grades from teachers are without cause. I had a problem with 3 English teachers in highschool who lowered my grades unduly. I know why they did this -- for no other reason than the lack of effort that they claimed I appeared to exert. My mother took it up with one of these teachers...the other two I silently suffered through. Never mind the fact that I was a more competent speaker and writer of English than even the Valedictorians of my graduating class -- since I appeared to have a "bad attitude", they were much quicker to take points off of my assignments than off the paper of a bigger ass-kisser. This sort of thing never happened to me in private school (which I attended in gradeschool and college), where the classes are smaller, and the teachers know all of the students much better. My sullenness was never mistaken for lack of talent in private school because the teachers took more of an interest in the students and actually knew more about me, *and* my interests, *and* my style of learning than any of my unionized public school teachers ever did.

One of my favorite high school memories was totally pwning my Advanced Placement writing exams, despite all of the discouragement and naysaying and "D" grades that I had to put up with from my 11th grade English teacher...it was such a great feeling to expose her for the know-nothing she was. She even admitted to the graduating class below my year to thinking I'd fail the AP exam, but then was absolutely *shocked* to find that I had achieved the highest score possible! (gasp!) (She didn't identify me by name, but I know it was me, for various reasons.)

[Mr. Nice Guy]

joe:

I am not a racist. Some of my friends are 'mos. Not many, but a few. There are good 'mos and bad 'mos. As long as they stay in their tribe, I have no beef.

I just wish those damned 'mo kids would stop harpooning my tires in the middle of the night.

[emme]

"I just wish those damned 'mo kids would stop harpooning my tires in the middle of the night."

Yeah right. Everyone knows Eskimos are make believe. Like Leprechauns and unicorns.

[Disgruntled]

Blue Baby: How dare you say such a thing! Of course intelligence is randomly distributed 8 days after birth by the IQ fairy. You can't tell me my little darling is stupid just because I am!

[Jennifer]

I had a problem with 3 English teachers in highschool who lowered my grades unduly. I know why they did this -- for no other reason than the lack of effort that they claimed I appeared to exert.

It goes back to what I complained about much earlier on this thread: that effort is supposed to be graded, not ability. Personally, as a teacher I didn't give a damn how long you spent on an assignment--I cared how well you DID the assignment. Period.

That twit who first told me that ability matters more than effort--oh, how I would love to be a plumber or exterminator going to his house for a job. "Well, your toilet is still a geyser spitting raw sewage into your house, and there are still millions of cockroaches everywhere, but since I put a lot of effort into the job I think you should pay me anyway."

[Eric the .5b]

I just wish those damned 'mo kids would stop harpooning my tires in the middle of the night.

Stop getting gray tires and painting cute little baby-seal eyes on them.

[Eric the .5b]

"Well, your toilet is still a geyser spitting raw sewage into your house, and there are still millions of cockroaches everywhere, but since I put a lot of effort into the job I think you should pay me anyway."

Heh!

[John]

Jennifer,

The effort matters more than ability cult has been growing for years now. Think about college admissions. It used to be back in the dark ages, any student could get into virtuallly any presigous college by doing well enough on an entrance exam. They didn't care about your grades, they cared about what you knew and what you could do. Now, colleges care about things like "activities" and "commitment to the community". There are a lot of geniuses who in the past got into our best universities who wouldn't stand a chance today because they had no interest or time to run for class president or work in a soup kitchean on the weekends.

[happyjuggler0]

Compare

"Anyone who think[s] skin pigmentation is correlated with brain function needs a biology lesson. "

with

To believe that race has anything to do with intelligence is to believe that brain-power is genetically linked to something as arbitrary as skin color.

Woooooo hoooooo! Let's hear it for the ability to misquote. If your intention was to deceive, you failed. If your intention was to rephrase what i said in such a way to point out I may be missing something, it would be nice if you compared the two statements like I just did, instead of implying that what you said is what I said. They are different. Skin pigmentation is not a part of the brain's functioning and vice versa.

I understand I opened a can of worms here, and that the debate on genetics of groups has been raging on for some time. The big problem I have with this debate is not that people may make the distasteful inquiry of the genetics of groups, but that they raise the issue without also addressing the cultural arguments as well. If you can explain the disparities by how people are brought up, such as educational expectations and familial demands that the kids try, and by single parent families doing worse on the education numbers, then injecting race genetics into the issue seems like someone has a race-based agenda.

As per the culture and institutions vs genetics argument in education, the genetics crowd has the uncomfortable position of explaing why there are several Asian countries with less than stellar education numbers while some have stellar numbers, and why countries like India and the US have huge internal regional differences in educational pre-college numbers, even after accounting for race? Texas has had pretty abysmal education numbers for white and black, while Massachusetts has done much better. Texas is improving, and so "coincidentally" is their attitude that education is important.

This does not mean that there may indeed be some differences in brain power among different races, but is it really so hard to see that pretty much all the differences can be explained by attitude and institutional and economic differences? Perhaps those races at the bottom of the charts right now have superior genetic brain power than the ones at the current charts. It is impossible to know until we all have parents and grandparents that pressure us to learn etc.

[joe]

John, "Yes, Joe, just build the control tower a little higher this time and I am sure the planes will come."

The problem is, the planes are coming. You can bitch and moan all you want that they have scratched paint, but they keep coming.

And for somebody as obesessed with conservative sound bits as you are, you'd think you'd've learned to spell "bureaucracy."

[John]

Oh really Joe,

They are coming? How is that? We spend exponentially more on education than we ever did, but seem to get worse and worse results. In fact there seems to be a direct negative correlation between what we are doing and achievement. Do you really beleive that the professionals are getting it right?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"Stop getting gray tires and painting cute little baby-seal eyes on them."

....

..I think you're on to something.

That could explain why they're constantly busting my back windshield and pilfering the baby seal plush dolls I have on display.

And they steal my Whale Songs CDs, too, but leave the rest. I have all the Clay Aiken essentials.

Could there be a link?

[joe]

Jennifer, doesn't "today's official educational philosophy refuses to admit that the student has any role to play in his own education" contradict "Ability doesn't matter; effort does?"

[John]

Perhaps you really do believe that the planes are coming Joe. I guess that is why Feynman called it "Cargo Cult Science" instead of "Cargo Science". It really is a cult meaning that it is impervious to reason.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, doesn't "today's official educational philosophy refuses to admit that the student has any role to play in his own education" contradict "Ability doesn't matter; effort does?"

Yes, it does. But as I mentioned in my comment at 11:56, nobody seemed to realize that.

Then again, I know better than to expect logic or consistency from anyone who would look me in the eye and say "When it comes to student achievement ability doesn't matter; effort does."

The reason kids with Down's syndrome or microencephaly do poorly in school isn't because they lack ability, you see; it's because they're not making an effort. That is also why I never became a professional quarterback for a football team--lack of effort, not lack of athletic ability.

[John]

Jennifer: The reason kids with Down's syndrome or microencephaly do poorly in school isn't because they lack ability, you see; it's because they're not making an effort. That is also why I never became a professional quarterback for a football team--lack of effort, not lack of athletic ability.

Good for you. Good answer.

[joe]

John, "They are coming? How is that? We spend exponentially more on education than we ever did, but seem to get worse and worse results." The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Ideologues aside, the public school system in this country, for the most part, does a good to very-good job of educating students. There are a small minority of messed up schools, but they are far outweighed by the good ones out there. For maybe 90% of the schools out there, the most reform they need is tinkering around the edges.

"In fact there seems to be a direct negative correlation between what we are doing and achievement. Do you really beleive that the professionals are getting it right?" For the most part. There are improvements to be made here and there, but the "schools in crisis" meme, applied to the system as a whole, is no different from most other crises people make up to justify their ideologically-based goals.

Tell me, John, if it was proven to you that public schools were doing a damn good job of educating their students with the money extorted at gunpoint from our most productive citizens, would you support it?

I didn't think so.

[mk]

Smacky,
What is really priceless is when you ace the intelligence tests when the whole reason they gave the test to you in the first place was that the teachers were convinced that you didn't know how to read
🙂

[dhex]

joe: and vice versa. i mean, c'mon. you've got a ponytail and everything.

which is an ad hair-inem, btw.

[w]

i thinks weze put a little too much clout in these rankings (see new posts on economic liberty rankings on H&R). maybe I've been a skinz fan for too long, but do we really have to be #1 in every damn ranking someone can think of? and isn't the fact that we dominate the world generally good enough? i keep hearing about great german engineering, despite the fact that my VW is a piece of shit (i think too many people have bought into the marketing of german engineering anyway, kinda like the cowboys being 'america's team - suckers), but their economly is shit. I'd rather rank lower on some dumb school ranking than live in a shitty economy (and i still think these rankings are dubious in the first place). i've been hearing about other countries 'catching up' and 'speeding ahead' of us for decades, but it never really seems to happen.

[John]

Joe,

Why are the test scores so much lower in the United States than they are in other countries? Why are the test scores so much lower today than they were say 50 years ago? Is this the best we can do? Why did poor black children excel in places like Cardozo High School in the 1950s but don't anymore? Lastly, if the public schools are so wonderful, why is choice such a threat to them? Afterall, why would anyone choose to leave such a wonderful system for a private alternative?

[mk]

I would like to see some recent numbers on how parents' opinions of US schools in general compare to their opinions of their local schools. I saw an older study where 70+% of parents around the country said that schools in America were in trouble. A similar percentage, when asked about their local schools, said that they were doing a good job.
Also, it's awfully easy to say yes to the question "Do you think that public schools could be improved?" Hell, I don't think the answer to that question would ever be "no".

[David]

Smacky,
What is really priceless is when you ace the intelligence tests when the whole reason they gave the test to you in the first place was that the teachers were convinced that you didn't know how to read
🙂

You too, mk? I had to be tested in second grade when the teacher thought I was learning disabled.

[smacky]

It seems to me that the best thing to do would be, if more private investors and companies would invest in charter and private schools, to legally sanction these private schools as acceptable and thereby have more private competitors competing with the public schools. Since there would be more private choices, they would compete pricewise for student enrollment. When these privately owned schools (trying to avoid using the "c" word since I know the stigma associated with it) start proving themselves to produce smarter, more prepared students, the populace will lose its faith in public schooling.

[Russ 2000]

you can lead a kid to knowledge but you can't make him think.

True, but from what I remember of elementary school, kids were generally discouraged from thinking. Kind of hard for high school kids to think when they've been infantilized for the 8 school years prior. (And that's true of parochial schools as well.)

[David]

A similar percentage, when asked about their local schools, said that they were doing a good job.

It the same disconnect people have politically. Ask people what the think about politicians, and you'll hear how they're sleazy and dishonest. Ask about their guy, and you'll hear the opposite.

[smacky]

What is really priceless is when you ace the intelligence tests when the whole reason they gave the test to you in the first place was that the teachers were convinced that you didn't know how to read

mk and David,

Well, the AP test I specifically mentioned wasn't an intellegence test in that sense. It did, however, exempt me from my otherwise-mandatory freshman year composition class in college. Whee!

Funny story about the tests you two are talking about, though: When I was in the first grade I took an Iowa-style multiple choice standardized test for reading. I had to retake the entire test on a different day because I had colored in the pictures of the answers I thought were correct instead of the little ovals. Although I was a bit embarrassed, I was at least relieved to know that standardized tests weren't meant to be as gruelingly painful on my hands as it was when I was coloring the full illustrations.
Also, for the most part all of my initial answers were correct, so that might have saved me from them writing me off as retarded at such a young age...that came much later in life.

[smacky]

To further explain my previous post, I hadn't even noticed the little ovals.

[joe]

John, "Why are the test scores so much lower in the United States than they are in other countries?" They are not "so much lower," for one thing. But as I mentioned in my first post, the high levels of immigration and poverty in our country cause lower scores. We constantly have a cohort of students who need to be "brought up to speed." In addition, there are a few large school systems that genuinely do need help to become as good as the larger number of quality suburban school systems.

"Why are the test scores so much lower today than they were say 50 years ago?" They're not, uniformly. But today, a much higher % of the kids take the standarized tests who would have before. You think the scores from the 1950s included a lot of black students in segregated schools in Mississippi?

"Why did poor black children excel in places like Cardozo High School in the 1950s but don't anymore?" There are still good schools at which poor black children excel. Once again, I'll put PS Anynumber in NYC today up against 99% of the separate-but-equal Negroe schools from 1950.

"Lastly, if the public schools are so wonderful, why is choice such a threat to them?" Because of fears that needed funding will be diverted, while the easiest-to-teach students leave for private schools, leaving the public schools trying to do 90% of the job with 75% of the funding.

[joe]

dhex,

HAD a pony tail. But not for years.

The old hairdo wasn't working with the new hairline - it was turning into a hairdon't.

[Jennifer]

"Lastly, if the public schools are so wonderful, why is choice such a threat to them?" Because of fears that needed funding will be diverted, while the easiest-to-teach students leave for private schools, leaving the public schools trying to do 90% of the job with 75% of the funding.

Public schools need to stop wasting money trying to teach the unteachable. When I taught high school my class was above the hard-core special ed room--I'm talking kids who suffered such severe mental retardation that they reached the age of 18 or 19 without learning how to talk. Kids who did not know how to close their mouths to keep from drooling on themselves. Kids who had to wear helmets and elbow pads, and in one case these boxing-glove-type things on their hands, to keep them from damaging themselves.

My school didn't always have money for textbooks, but we had two or three full-time professionals assigned to each such special ed kid. This is a complete of time, money and effort. I'm not saying these kids should be tossed on the street and left to starve, but they had absolutely no business in a regular school.

By the way, these kids DID count against the school, in terms of "how many of your students have not learned how to read."

[John (the IT guy)]

Todays lesson in vocabulary: juxtaposition

"Because of fears that needed funding will be diverted, while the easiest-to-teach students leave for private schools, leaving the public schools trying to do 90% of the job with 75% of the funding."

"what kills me is the number of people in the teaching business - i work with someone who was a union rep and a teacher for 30 years - who don't see much of a problem with fucking over 5 talented kids for the sake of 50 who can't be bothered to learn sentence construction."

[Ed]

I blame hip-hop.

[joe]

Jennifer,

Massachusetts guarantees every child a free and appropriate education. I believe that is as it should be, but sometimes I wonder about the definition of "appropriate."

[mk]

David,
2nd grade? This happened to me in 8th grade!

[dhex]

"The old hairdo wasn't working with the new hairline - it was turning into a hairdon't."

http://www.headblade.com

best hair-related decision i ever made.

http://dhex.org/pics/headblade/headblade1.jpg
http://dhex.org/pics/headblade/headblade4.jpg

[David]

mk,

You didn't happen to have one of those cardboard, anti-distraction boxes on your desk, did you?

[thoreau]

"Well, your toilet is still a geyser spitting raw sewage into your house, and there are still millions of cockroaches everywhere, but since I put a lot of effort into the job I think you should pay me anyway."

Isn't that called "billing by the hour"?

[smacky]

2nd grade? This happened to me in 8th grade!

I was not given such an "intellegence test" in college, but I can say with little hesitation that my college calculus teacher thought I was retarded.

[David]

dhex,

You should have a before shot on there, especially if before was a bad comb-over or scraggly mullet!

[mk]

David,
Me? no. I could have used one though. It would have been easier to sleep without anyone noticing.

I had some great teachers in my day. Ones for whom I would have done anything and did. If I didn't like the teacher, I usually failed. I was a pain-in-the-ass.

[Jennifer]

Massachusetts guarantees every child a free and appropriate education. I believe that is as it should be, but sometimes I wonder about the definition of "appropriate."

Apparently, "appropriate" means "ALL kids will reach the same standard of academic achievement."

I hope the military never adopts the philosophy of the public schools. "So what if you're a quadriplegic? You can still join the SEALS. Legally blind? That doesn't mean you can't be a sharpshooter."

[Russ 2000]

effort matters more than ability...

Yep, that's how the teacher's union wants teachers to be paid.

[Twba]

Why are the test scores so much lower in the United States than they are in other countries?

According to this paper, the tests are comparing apples to oranges.

Given the diversity of the curricula across countries and given that "secondary school" can last from 2 to 5 years, one might have expected that TIMSS staff and the U.S. Department of Education, which funded much of the study, would have emphasized the differences among these countries and would have tried to tease out how differences among the systems affect and produce differences in outcomes.

That goes a long way toward explaining the divergence of scores after fourth grade. If the Norwegian studies physics for three years before taking the science test, he will outscore the American who has barely studied physics.

[Jennifer]

If the Norwegian studies physics for three years before taking the science test, he will outscore the American who has barely studied physics.

So then the question is, why are the Norwegian kids learning physics while their American counterparts learning intelligent design? (Okay, I'll admit that was a cheap shot.) Nonetheless, our curricula have been severely dumbed-down. I am still ticked off by my own experiences as a student--in second grade, I would be ordered to stop reading that month's "National Geographic" or Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" so the teacher could teach me how to read "The fat cat sat on the mat."

And as a teacher, I had smart kids, dumb kids and average kids in the same class--the smart kids were bored, the dumb kids hopelessly confused, and only the two or three average kids got anything out of it.

[Twba]

...the smart kids were bored...

Thanks, you're bringing back some great memories.

[Timothy]

One of my favorite high school memories was totally pwning my Advanced Placement writing exams, despite all of the discouragement and naysaying and "D" grades that I had to put up with from my 11th grade English teacher...it was such a great feeling to expose her for the know-nothing she was.

I got a 4 on the AP English test, same sort of circumstances. They wouldn't accept my application for Honor's/AP English so I took exactly zero years of it. I did not a whit of studying, missed one too many questions and got a 4. The kids who'd done four years of advanced English and gotten a 2 or 3 sure were pissed.

But, of course, I can't really blame my sophomore English teacher for hating me (the other three were fine), I did call her a "Fat, black-wearing, coffee-swilling English department freak." She responded with, "I may be fat, but I'm beautiful", to which I chirrped "That's debatable." Of course, bitch had it coming.

[smacky]

I really don't see why classing students according to ability wouldn't be a good idea. Someone suggested that the older kids wouldn't like being lumped together with younger kids, but that doesn't really matter: I was taking classes in college with people several years younger than me -- that's just how college works. No matter what "year" you are in college, you sign up for the class, and if you are not a freshman chances are you'll have someone younger than you taking the same class as you.
Likewise, it would be a good idea to more easily alert bright students about options such as skipping a grade, if "gifted programs" are not available. I know I wish I had skipped a grade at certain times in my school career...I may have remained a more motivated student if I had not had to idle around in my classes, waiting for the slow kids to catch up. (Disclaimer: I'm not claiming to be some sort of genius. I do know that chronically leaving brighter kids in an environment with much slower kids will eventually drop the intelligence level to the lowest common denominator, that is all. And I think that's a crying shame...).

[Stretch]

The problem with public schools isn't so much the federal government as it is local government. As much as I hate congressmen who pontificate pointlessly and coerce needlessly, there are few things worse than petty, small-time bureaucrats. While their power may be derived from national directives, what school administrators choose to do with that power is largely left up to them. It is a rarity that administrators get ousted as they did in PA recently, so their actions are largely unaccountable as long as they meet the funding requirements. Of course, solving these problems from DC is an impossiblity.

I don't have as much a problem with nationally mandated public schooling as I do with excessive burdens to running private alternatives. Regardless of vouchers, a decrease in regulation coupled with significatnt tax advantages to running a private school could greatly decrease the cost, making them much more affordable to many, though certainly not all.

[Number 6]

Joe-I just happen to have the test results from our local district on my desk. I live in a semi-rural area noticably light on immigrants. The district's reading scores are still abysmal.

Jennifer-I had the same problem in 2nd grade, as well as the others. I was the kid who would hide my own book inside the textbook. It was always something more difficult-and interesting?than whatever pablum was being churned out by the teacher.

[Held Back]

Worst...H&R...ever.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer-I had the same problem in 2nd grade, as well as the others. I was the kid who would hide my own book inside the textbook. It was always something more difficult-and interesting?than whatever pablum was being churned out by the teacher.

Number 6, if you and I were the only students in history who ever did that, then I'd say maybe it was just our problem, not the schools. But there were enough kids like us to make it an actual system-wide problem--damn this stupid homogenization which says "If two kids are within six months of the same age, then of COURSE their intellectual abilities must be exactly equal."

(I of course had that problem every year, not just in second grade; I just remember the second-grade example because it was the most egregious. "Stop reading adult science articles so you can 'learn' how to read words like 'cat.'")

[shecky]

emme,

Nonsense. I fuckin hated going to school. But I knew that if I didn't bring home at least a C average my parents wouldn't stop bitching. So I got my C average just so they'd shut their traps.

So you were motivated! Doesn't really matter why. You're anecdote makes my point.

I'm not sure about this either. My friend's dad teaches in a inner city chicago public school. The bright ones who actually want to learn are ripped a new one like you wouldn't believe by their fellow thugged out students. This is obviously anecdotal evidence and I'm not trying to generalize, but if that's the environment you're in how the fuck are you supposed to learn anything?

The fact that some kids are ridiculed into submission for being good isn't necessarily the school's fault. This sort of race to mediocrity happens in the best of schools, too.

[smacky]

Jennifer and Number 6,

I had similar situations to yours in my classes, except I would do homework for other classes during certain courses. Killed two birds with one stone...then I'd have more time to do recreational drugs after school! 🙂

[dhex]

helpful ap english test hint: don't write about henry miller, and most certainly don't use the word "cunt" - quotation or not, you will not get that five you deserve for perfect marks on every other section.

no, not bitter at all. had no use for that 10k scholarship award whatsoever. i loved working 3 jobs freshman year. it was great!

i learned a lot; for example, the people who grade ap tests are "cunts."

[Timothy]

Likewise, it would be a good idea to more easily alert bright students about options such as skipping a grade, if "gifted programs" are not available

Or where the "gifted programs" are a total joke. I was routinely pulled out of things I really quite liked (science, math) during elementary school to go participate in activities for "gifted" students such as: solving brain-teasers, building towers out of newspaper, and other things to help aid in "creative thinking". Nevermind that I still had to suffer through hours of tedium in reading groups and art appreciation. Nevermind that I actually learned things from the math & science parts of the day, whereas the reading instruction was beneath me eventhough I was in the "highest" group. No no, I was "Talented and Gifted", I needed to figure out that the poison was in the ice cubes!

[Number 6]

Jenifer- I should point out that I went to private schools from kindergarten through college. I can't really say I resent the forced slowing down all that much. By about 4th grade, the teachers had learned to let me do my own thing when we weren't sitting at our desks passively recieving instruction, and asked only that I be quiet when we were. Of course, there were exceptions. There always have been and always will be teachers whose primary values are conformity and obedience. There were also teachers at the school who actively encouraged me to pursue my own interests, and I'm still grateful to them.
Overall, my school did a good job of giving my parents something for their money.

[emme]

"So you were motivated! Doesn't really matter why. You're anecdote makes my point."

I was motivated by a top-down system. Yes, I was motivated but it was initiated by my parents' top down approach.

So yeah, I guess I was motivated in a way.

[Jennifer]

When I was in the Gifted and Talented program, we got to leave school every Wednesday to go to Colonial Williamsburg. Every week, for a whole semester. Which was a lot of fun, but I never understood the point of it.

We also played "Oregon Trail" on those old-fashioned computers.

One good thing about my GAT experiences: they introduced me to logic puzzles, which I enjoy to this day. Otherwise, no benefit.

[emme]

"The fact that some kids are ridiculed into submission for being good isn't necessarily the school's fault."

Whether it is the school's fault is arguable. But the student is stuck in a school and he can't go anywhere else. Some schools are worse than others in this respect.

"This sort of race to mediocrity happens in the best of schools, too."

It's all a matter of degree. Some schools are worse than others.

Bottom line is that there are situations in schools where the kid no matter how motivated is ridiculed for his efforts. Therefore he keeps quiet.

[emme]

"We also played "Oregon Trail" on those old-fashioned computers."

I hated that game. I always died of hay fever or something.

[Timothy]

Jennifer: In Oregon we played Oregon Trail as a part of the regular curriculum. And I hear you on the reading, I read Lord of the Rings the first time in fourth grade, Catcher in the Rye in fifth...nobody wants to talk about those books in elementary school, so I ended up reading a lot of "junior fiction" (Beverly Cleary, etc) so that my classmates would understand my book reports.

[smacky]

Jennifer and Timothy,

In a weird way, your bad experiences with Gifted and Talented programs make me feel a little better about not ever having them offered at the schools I attended. The only similar personal experience I can report is that as a person who was always in the most advanced English and literature courses, I always felt a little cheated but moreso guilty that all of the lower reading levels had more reading assignments, more writing assigments, more leg work, and generally read many more books and wrote more reports than the advanced kids such as myself. It never really made much sense to me, but I always saw most English class assignments as busywork anyway, so I didn't mind that much.

[Timothy]

I always saw most English class assignments as busywork anyway, so I didn't mind that much.

Except for a few classes in college, I always saw most assignments this way. More exams!

[smacky]

I should point out, though, that I'm probably much less of a reading-for-pleasure type of person than some of you.

[Timothy]

Smacky:

I can say that I never felt particularly bad about being denied entrance to Honor's English in high school, their reading list was mostly stuff I wasn't particularly interested in anyway. Jane Austen, Hawthorne, things like that. In the normal English I got Shakespeare, Orwell, Poe, Huxley, Miller...generally more aged classics and more modern literature without all that Victorian crap about adulterers and wanting to marry a man of higher status. I'll take Fitzgerald over Hardy any day.

[Bonar Law]

"In the normal English I got Shakespeare, Orwell, Poe, Huxley, Miller . . ."

Henry or Arthur?

[David]

I wasn't allowed to go to Gifted and Talented class as a punishment because after my intelligence test revealed that I was ahead of the class rather than disabled, it was determined that I was lazy.

Now that I think of, most of my school experiences were people angry with me for being me.

I didn't get into AP English either, the teacher said I wasn't AP material. Oddly, I had the 4th highest SATs in my class and like smacky had a high enough TSWE score to skip comp I.

[smacky]

David,

Maybe it's the computer scientist in me, but I never especially valued hard work for hard work's sake. Of course, there is the possibility that I may be eating my words should I develop Alzheimer's later in life...

Off-topic (surprise, surprise!), but has anyone noticed the addition of a second shirtless guy among the H&R advertisements? Are they trying to attract more women or more bodybuilders to Hit and Run? Is that who they are targeting with these ads? Alternately, are they just posting bad advertisements as new fodder for the H&R regulars to mock? Either way, the gay Hit and Runners must find this trend thrilling. What say you, Herrick and company?

[Timothy]

Bonar: Arthur.

Smacky: I just scrolled up and, lo, there is yet another shirtless man. Damn you for making me notice.

[s]

I repost Jennifer's earlier post because it deserves more discussion

"Public schools need to stop wasting money trying to teach the unteachable. When I taught high school my class was above the hard-core special ed room--I'm talking kids who suffered such severe mental retardation that they reached the age of 18 or 19 without learning how to talk. Kids who did not know how to close their mouths to keep from drooling on themselves. Kids who had to wear helmets and elbow pads, and in one case these boxing-glove-type things on their hands, to keep them from damaging themselves.My school didn't always have money for textbooks, but we had two or three full-time professionals assigned to each such special ed kid. This is a complete of time, money and effort. I'm not saying these kids should be tossed on the street and left to starve, but they had absolutely no business in a regular school. By the way, these kids DID count against the school, in terms of "how many of your students have not learned how to read."

Man, that comes across as a hateful post... and it severely distorts the impact that special education within the same environment provides for both the students in the special education classroom and those students who do not have severe learning problems.

The point behind having these damaged children in the same environment as others less damaged involves a complex set of issues. Don't pounce on "learning to read" and funding as the end all of education. Schools also teach children how to have respect for others with lesser abilities, different abilities, different circumstances, and different priorities. It would be nice to keep all of life's problems locked away somewhere so that people didn't need to be bothered with them wouldn't it? Everyone would be happier if it weren't for those challenging kids. If we excluded all trouble makers, retards, and the like, then schools could all be like Lake Wobegone where all the children are above average. Or like the mythical schools of the 1950's referenced frequently in this thread, where children scored better on tests and there were no problem children (only punks that deserved what they got).

Again, I would say that the issues of providing an opportunity for education for ANYONE who wants it for their children requires a combination of solutions and that little if any of this involves where the funding comes from. Public vs. private does not have anything to do with quality. Simplistic views of "the problem" come from an inability or unwillingness to examine the complexity of the issue. To conflate ability & effort, reform & funding, support & funding, priorities & demographics, race & ability, culture & race, selling off the schools & providing choice, simply underscores why we need a more functional education system. To avoid simplistic political debates about complex issues.

No across the board solution makes sense to fix "the problem" with schools in our country. Each school has its unique issues that will require unique solutions. Few will be solved by disolving the school district, vouchers, or quadrupling of funding. Most will be solved by subtle changes in procedures, priorities, training, staffing patterns, and attitudes. ALL will occur at the local level.

I recognize that this is just an on-line discussion where people don't think too carefully about what they post. But a recognition that most if not all people involved in public or private education are doing what they can to address a complex task would go a long way to further the discussion. Don't take the particular issue you see in the school where you learned/worked, and assume it is the problem that plagues the rest of the country.

Schools where special education is an issue exist. Many schools use special education too quickly to address issues that could be addressed in the regular classroom. Many do not provide a wide enough menu of solutions for kids that don't fit in the regular classroom box. Few, if any, suffer from funding issues due to the existence of special education children in the building. Particularly when you are talking about severe disabilities that may only impact 1% of the children in a community. They are a blip in the districts funding.

But I rant.
Excuse me.
I am at least encouraged by the obvious interest in the topic that is evidenced by the debate here.

[scape]

Hey, uh ... anybody have a pencil I can borrow?

[Timothy]

I only have a #4, scape. Sorry.

[One of Them Van Halen Kids]

I got my pencil.

[science]

And given that rant, I suggest you watch 20/20's analysis to see how not to think about the issues. John "Give Me A Break" is an idiot who always tries to pretend he has a common sense solution to offer. If his analysis sparks debate, good, but don't pretend you will be informed by the program's content. The title "20/20" has something to do with the IQ of the hosts, but I am not sure if it is a percentile or standard score.

[dead_elvis]

Thank you for bringing up "Gifted and Talented", Jennifer. In the third grade, I was singled out to do some sort of independent study, which was retarded because being in the 3rd grade I really didn't have the creative skills to do much more than copy stuff out of the dictionary. By 5th grade or so they had us doing "Future Problem Solving," which I found absolutely dreadful, but I stuck with it because it got you out of class once in a while.

I think that approach to the more advanced kids is flawed, because you know what I really wanted to do? GO FASTER. Not to do some wierd shit on the side, just to GO FASTER.

[dead_elvis]

From the original article in the post:

Yet the system does not allow parents and kids a choice - in most states children can only attend the public school for which they are zoned.

It should be noted that a *real* choice has to be offered. In Memphis a few years back they made a big deal about "open enrollment," by which kids could go to any school they wanted, with priority given to local kids. Of course, the problem is that *all* of the schools you are choosing from are run by the same system. The really good schools were magnet programs that had different selection criteria anyway.

[dead_elvis]

didn't have the creative skills to do much more than copy stuff out of the dictionary.

oops. That should be "copy stuff out of the encyclopedia"

[happyjuggler0]

"s",

Do you think that a school system that is "failing" by some sort of objective measure should still be owned by the goverment? You talk about subtle things needing to occur, and no one sized fits all rhetoric. This sounds exactly like we need a free market. No one (sane anyway) is claiming that a free market education system of some sort where the government is providing the funding will result in perfect schools. We simply think it is the best system to generate the individualized and subtle changes that are necessary to make real improvments. When one size fits all government run shcools are not working, it is not unreasonable to want to scrap that system.

I think the fact that so many here have different ideas on what is wrong is proof we need a K-12 education market instead of monopoly. One size does not fit all.

[biologist]

From the Washington Post: U.S. students had much higher confidence that they were doing well in math than did students in South Korea and Japan, even though their performance was significantly weaker.

The self esteem lessons seem to be working.

Comment by: Twba at January 9, 2006 10:56 AM

check out this excellent funny/sad peer-reviewed article:
Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own
Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

[SixSigma]

biologist -

Nice link, and while I haven't read any of it, it reminds me of a study (I think Harvard) whereby they posited and attempted to prove that the intelligence it took to "do" an act well, was the same basic brain function to recognize others perform that same act well.

Or reworded for people like me, "Some people are too stupid to know their stupid."

Anyway - thanks for the link.

[SixSigma]

I meant, "haven't read all of it" - but I believe this is the same paper.

[biologist]

If Asian students are doing well in Asian schools and American schools, are we overlooking a genetic component to academic success?

Comment by: Twba at January 9, 2006 01:31 PM

Anyone who think skin pigmentation is correlated with brain function needs a biology lesson. And also needs to look deeper, such as cultural expectations and demands.

Comment by: happyjuggler0 at January 9, 2006 01:50 PM

If Asian students are doing well in Asian schools and American schools, are we overlooking a genetic component to academic success?

Why the leap to genetics while ignoring culture? These kids aren't excelling because they have "heavy studying" genes, they're excelling because their parents expect them to study hard and get on their cases when they don't.

Comment by: Eric the .5b at January 9, 2006 01:55 PM

Intelligence is a distinct trait among countless traits. To believe that race has anything to do with intelligence is to believe that brain-power is genetically linked to something as arbitrary as skin color. This doesn't make sense.

Comment by: Mr. Nice Guy at January 9, 2006 02:16 PM

Compare

"Anyone who think[s] skin pigmentation is correlated with brain function needs a biology lesson. "

with

To believe that race has anything to do with intelligence is to believe that brain-power is genetically linked to something as arbitrary as skin color.

Woooooo hoooooo! Let's hear it for the ability to misquote...

Comment by: happyjuggler0 at January 9, 2006 03:13 PM

happyjuggler0, you also misquoted twba.

good work on the straw men, misrepresentations and false dichotomies, everyone. I assign you ALL to a biology lesson or two. or read "Nature via Nurture" by Matt Ridley

[Shem]

What is it that Sylvan does differently?

Well, for starters they actually figure out why you're doing poorly and then go from there, as opposed to just repeating the same stuff over and over again until you slink back to your seat feeling like an idiot. I spent years pounding my head against the figurative and literal wall trying to understand math, and it wasn't until the eighth grade (when my parents finally sent me to a Sylvan) that anyone realized that I had dyslexia. I asked a teacher how anyone could have missed such an obvious affliction, and she said: "well, you communicated so well that we always sort of assumed that you were just lazy."

Funny how approaching students as actual, distinct human beings can have a positive affect on your success rate.

[happyjuggler0]

Interesting paper. I admit to some serious skimming when the redundancies of their tests started getting too much for me, but I supposes their point was to actually beat into us they were correct.

So with that skimming in mind, I am a bit disturbed that a quarter of college students couldn't recognize that their grammar skills were poor, although it was understandable they felt this way. If the admissions board thought they were grammatically competent enough to get into college, why should they feel they were incompetent? It is that admissions failure that is what really disturbs me, that and the fact that the paper's authors didn't spot this, or at least chose not to mention it.

Or maybe I missed that part when I skimmed.

[s]

HappyJuggler

"K-12 education market instead of monopoly"

My point is that no single solution makes sense, so no I don't support a monopoly. Nor do I think that that is what we have under the current system. On the local level, it is plausible that a better monopoly will meet some local communities' needs. Other localities may have different priorities and needs. I do believe that everyone should have the RIGHT to send their kids to any school they feel is the best to meet their needs. This doesn't mean that I feel that public funding of that choice (i.e. vouchers) is the smartest policy in most cases. A true freemarket of education might include for some communities a government run program supported by taxes that distributes the funding burden across large numbers of individuals. That is what most public school systems and their funding looks like. To say that taking away that option in anyway represents a larger menu of choices is not, I think, a fair representation of what would happen. Nor wise public policy. The societal forces that created public education still exist in our society. Scrap that system, and it will only be recreated later. Instead, find ways to improve educational choices at a local level to address local needs. Don't pretend that a one-size fits all solution (which would include at "FREEMARKET FOR ALL" solution) can address the myriad issues in the wide variety of communities in this very large country. This is, by the way, a problem that Libertarians need to consider in other issues of public policy on a national level. Maximizing individual rights may involve allowing for collective action using government mechanisms,despite the apparent contradiction.

[happyjuggler0]

no I don't support a monopoly

Don't pretend that a one-size fits all solution (which would include at "FREEMARKET FOR ALL" solution) can address the myriad issues in the wide variety of communities in this very large country

Um, I am missing something here. You are opposed to a government (or private sector) monopoly on schools, and you are opposed to a free market. What exactly is left? A duopoly?

I do believe that everyone should have the RIGHT to send their kids to any school they feel is the best to meet their needs.

This is a relief.

This doesn't mean that I feel that public funding of that choice (i.e. vouchers) is the smartest policy in most cases.

A ha! You do support a monopoly, or at least for everyone who is not rich. The rich have the right to send their kids to any school they feel is the best to meet their needs. The rest of us get stuck with the government monopoly. I am not impressed.

A true freemarket of education might include for some communities a government run program supported by taxes that distributes the funding burden across large numbers of individuals.

To say that taking away that option in anyway represents a larger menu of choices is not, I think, a fair representation of what would happen.

Okay, in another post I mentioned I thought all government run schools should be sold. Most voucher advocates don't actually say this, perhaps I am in the minority. But it is important to realize that there is a difference in goverment owning and running of schools, and school vouchers. A school voucher program allows parents to choose the school of their kids, be it government run school or a non-profit or a for-profit school. To put it another way, vouchers will only end government run schools if no parents will send their kids to government run schools. This is hardly a reason to say non-rich parents should not be able to use vouchers for the school of their choice.

[poco]

Jennifer, you should write a book about your teaching travails. Or a long article, anyway.

My PE classes nearly 20 years ago were graded by effort rather than ability, for which I was deeply grateful. I still knew I sucked, though -- no illusory high self-assessments there.

[John (the IT guy)]

biologist,

I cannot thank you enough for that link. I'll be distributing the printed article far and wide...

[science]

Happy Juggler,

Re: I am missing something here.

I think the answer to that is yes. I am not advocating any particular across the board solution for the myriad problems that face the vast number of individual school districts across the thousands of communities in the country. For some one solution may make sense. For others a different solution makes sense. To discuss the issue as if a solution that works in your community will make sense in mine is pointless. I do find it unlikely that vouchers are the panacea they are touted as in most cases, but there is the possibility that they would work in some communities is properly structured.

Re: vouchers will only end government run schools if no parents will send their kids to government run schools.

Well, maybe. But what you are basically advocating (or what most voucher systems look like to me) is a tuition based education system that pits public run institutions against private run institutions and then provides for a complex wealth distribution system using vouchers. That might work in some cases, but I find the idea of providing a consistent funding source to the public institution with an all-comers welcome policy more likely to work in a larger number of communities. (It seems both fairer and more efficient).

Like I said before. No single solution. Subtle changes determined at the local level. Different solutions address different problems. Don't assume that government has no role in any issue that impacts the majority of households in a community. Community-based, local solutions will always include the option of government mechanisms.

Re: The rest of us get stuck with the government monopoly.

At its best the government monopoly IS US, so we are only stuck with it to the degree we are not involved in shaping it. To suggest that vouchers somehow support the opportunities for poor families to compete with the rich is just silly. Vouchers will provide for an education at an institution that operates on a similar budget to the public schools system. Except, if that institution is profit-based, there is the chance that it will not be motivated to provide a good education, but rather a profitable one. Not saying there aren't conflicting interests in a government solution. Just that there are conflicting interests in any model. Communities need to weigh them for themselves at a local level to solve the particular problems in their schools.

Re:This is hardly a reason to say non-rich parents should not be able to use vouchers for the school of their choice.

I wonder about the concept underlying vouchers as it would apply to other services that impact the community at large. Would a voucher system that allows me to hire my own security service always provide for better law enforcement? Would a voucher system that lets me use FedEx as my primary mail carrier always improve mail service? It might in some cases I guess, but if it were a great solution it wouldn't it have been tried more widely...

Just wondering.

[Eric the .5b]

"Why the leap to genetics while ignoring culture? These kids aren't excelling because they have "heavy studying" genes, they're excelling because their parents expect them to study hard and get on their cases when they don't."

good work on the straw men, misrepresentations and false dichotomies, everyone. I assign you ALL to a biology lesson or two.

I assign you to a good remedial course on critical thinking and to an overview on human intelligence since the days of eugenics.

[Eric the .5b]

advances in the study of human intelligence, that is...

[Timothy]

I guess, but if it were a great solution it wouldn't it have been tried more widely...

Two words: Political Economy.

A few more: Public choice theory of politics.

When a bureaucracy is involved, never under estimate the power of momentum.

[jw]

Off-topic (surprise, surprise!), but has anyone noticed the addition of a second shirtless guy among the H&R advertisements? Are they trying to attract more women or more bodybuilders to Hit and Run? Is that who they are targeting with these ads? Alternately, are they just posting bad advertisements as new fodder for the H&R regulars to mock? Either way, the gay Hit and Runners must find this trend thrilling. What say you, Herrick and company?

Comment by: smacky at January 9, 2006 05:55 PM

Sure! I noticed several days ago, and I have already thought of a name to call him. How about ..."97 pound weakling guy"? He reminds me of those old ads with the guy getting sand kicked in his face at the beach.

[Russ 2000]

Funny how approaching students as actual, distinct human beings can have a positive affect on your success rate.

I was going to comment on all the posts from people explaining their school experiences. It seems like everyone is pigeonholed via tests rather than any actual meaningful one-on-one conversation with the student. It's as if school is someone else's science project.

And Shem's sentence nailed it.

[Twba]

I brought up genetics because it matters. Not everyone can become a power forward in the NBA, no matter how much effort is expended. If you don't have the genes, you won't make it. Not everyone can ace calculus, no matter how much effort is expended. Let's not kid ourselves that every student can become an NBA star or a math wiz. Being encouraged to study and do well in school is important but won't produce miracles. We are not born blank slates.

[smacky]

Don't pretend that a one-size fits all solution (which would include at "FREEMARKET FOR ALL" solution) can address the myriad issues in the wide variety of communities in this very large country. This is, by the way, a problem that Libertarians need to consider in other issues of public policy on a national level. Maximizing individual rights may involve allowing for collective action using government mechanisms,despite the apparent contradiction.

That sounds like doublespeak to me. It's as though you're suggesting that one "One size fits all" method (for example, choosing your own groceries to purchase with your own money at the grocery store) is as good as another "One size fits all" method (collecting everyone's money together and then having a group of people tell you which groceries you are going to buy with the money they redistribute to you). This is simply not the case. It's entirely likely that one solution is much better than the other. For some reason you seem to think that collectivism has to be part of the answer, although it is not.

[AmyLou]

w: "i've been hearing about other countries 'catching up' and 'speeding ahead' of us for decades, but it never really seems to happen."

I would direct you to view Shirley Ann Jackson's various talks on a topic she calls "The Quiet Crisis." http://www.rpi.edu/president/speeches/index.html.

I recently invited Dr. Jackson to be a keynote at an event my company sponsored. Her talk highlights the decline in innovation and a general stagnation that is occurring in American science and mathematics education. The population of well trained science/technology researchers, who brought so much innovation to the United States in the 50s and 60s and 70s is now aging and on the brink of retirement. The numbers of students who enter and complete PhD programs in the STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) fields has been declining steadily over the past decade or so. The numbers of international students who enter and complete PhD programs in the US is also declining; also, a portion of those students who complete their degrees here are choosing to return home - I have no problem with that in general, but resources used to educate those students don't net a return on the investment when we cannot retain their services in our public and private sectors.

The National Center for Education Statistics has databases available to the public that catalog, by various cateogories and criteria, the numbers of students entering and completing AA, BA/BS, Masters and PhDs. Generally the number is on the rise (~21% overall from 1979-2003). However, if you begin to breakdown the major fields of study for post-baccalaureate education, there is a marked decline in fields like physiscs, engineering, mathematics, biochemistry, etc., while fields like education and the humanities see moderately increasing numbers and less attrition in enrollment.

You mentioned that you don't see how other countries are pulling ahead of the US - well, today, they aren't, just yet. But given the attrition in numbers of students choosing to go into fields and have careers as researchers, inventors, engineers, etc., and the imminent retirement of our nations current innovative researchers, scientists, and engineers, it won't be long before we reach an edge with a sharp drop towards mediocrity, while countries we may have previously considered far beneath us have caught up or surpassed us in the "Space Race," the "Arms Race," biotechnology, etc.

It is crucial that we maintain an edge in education in America - and it is demonstrable that the edge is being dulled. I don't believe that all children can achieve equally - as someone said before, there is only so much infrastructure available to support so many scientists, liberally educated people, tradesman, et. al. But identifying and utilizing to thier maximum potential the talents and abilities of our population should be a focus of the education system. That is not to say we need to "career track" kids in 5th grade the way they do in France or Germany, but if a kid is a brilliant builder but sucks at writing, then perhaps s/he should be taught a practical trade instead of made to feel stupid for four years in English classes that will ultimately do no good to him/her. Don't waste time and money teaching where it isn't necessary, in short.

[mk]

Thanks for the feedback on Gifted & Talented programs. I have a daughter in one as we speak and have been given some food for thought and perspective.
What I found funny about the whole GAT experience was the noticable undercurrent of "These kids need to be kept away from the general population because they are strange". It seems like being gifted is approached similarly to being learning disabled. LD, but in a nice way.

[biologist]

I assign you to a good remedial course on critical thinking and to an overview on human intelligence since the days of eugenics.

Comment by: Eric the .5b at January 10, 2006 01:08 AM

---

advances in the study of human intelligence, that is...

Comment by: Eric the .5b at January 10, 2006 01:13 AM

Eric, the half-a-bee:

you mean like the studies of identical and fraternal twins and non-twin sibs raised together and separately that clearly show that intelligence has a substantial genetic component?

perhaps you could more specific on where you think my critical thinking skills have failed.

eugenics is really just a fancy term Darwin's cousin Francis Dalton gave to artificial selective breeding of humans. forced eugenics and sterilization has ethical implications, but voluntary eugenics does not. I don't see what this has to do with anything, or exactly what your point is.

[dead_elvis]

What I found funny about the whole GAT experience was the noticable undercurrent of "These kids need to be kept away from the general population because they are strange".

Sounds like "Malcolm in the Middle"

I dunno, YMMV. I think the important thing is to get honest feedback from your daughter. For some kids it might work great. Me, I'd rather have skipped a grade.

[Randolph Carter]

After over 2 years of reading this board, I just got Eric .5b's name. haha.

[Eric the .5b]

you mean like the studies of identical and fraternal twins and non-twin sibs raised together and separately that clearly show that intelligence has a substantial genetic component?

But not substantial at an ethnic or "racial" level, which was the suggestion of the post you were mocking criticisms of.

perhaps you could more specific on where you think my critical thinking skills have failed.

The same place as the original poster's. Students in some countries reportedly perform well in schools, while children of immigrants from those countries also tend to perform well in schools. Sooo, working from that...Ignore all vastly important cultural issues and simple common sense around parental involvement in academic performance and bring up genetics! Brilliant!

[One of Them Van Halen Kids]

After over 2 years of reading this board, I just got Eric .5b's name. haha.

People get it or...well, get it later. 🙂

[Stevo Darkly]

Hey! And I finally just now "got" Eric .5b's email address. It takes knowin' a bit of the Latin, you see.

[still don't get it]

Leader:A-one, two, a-one two three four
Leader: Half a bee, philisophically,
Must ipso facto half not be.
But half a bee has got to be
Vis a vis it's entity.
-d'you see?
But can a bee be said to be
Or not to be an entire bee,
When
half the bee is not a bee,
Due to some ancient injury.
-Singing!...
All sing: La di di, one two three,
Eric the Half a Bee.
A B C D E F G,
Eric the Half a Bee.
Leader: Is this wretched demi-bee,
Half asleep upon my knee,
Some freak from a mena
gerie?
All yell: No! It's Eric the Half a Bee.
All sing: Fiddle di dum, fiddle di dee,
Eric the Half a Bee.
Ho ho ho, tee hee hee,
Eric the Half a Bee.
Leader: I love this hive employ-ee-ee,
Bisected accidentally,
One summer's afternoon by me,
I love him carnally.
All sing: He loves him carnally...
Leader: Semi-carnally.
(speaks)
The End.
Voice: Cyril Connolly?
Leader: No, semi-carnally.
Voice: Oh.
All sing: (Quietly)
Cyril Connolly
(Ends with an elaborate whistle)

[smacky]

Eric the half-a-bee, still don't get it, Stevo,

I'm confused.

*whimper*

[science]

The complete sketch

Fishlicence from Monty-Python's Flying Circus.

Customer: Hello, I would like to buy a fish license, please.
Shopkeeper: A what?
C: A license for my pet fish, Eric.
S: How did you know my name was Eric?
C: No no no, my fish's name is Eric, Eric the fish. He's an halibut.
S: What?
C: He is...an...halibut.
S: You've got a pet halibut?
C: Yes. I chose him out of thousands. I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.
S: You must be a looney.
C: I am not a looney! Why should I be attired with the epithet looney merely because I have a pet halibut? I've heard tell that Sir Gerald Nabardo has a pet prawn called Simon (you wouldn't call him a looney); furthermore, Dawn Pailthorpe, the lady show-jumper, had a clam, called Stafford, after the late Chancellor, Allan Bullock has two pikes, both called Chris, and Marcel Proust had an haddock! So, if you're calling the author of 'A la recherche du temps perdu' a looney, I shall have to ask you to step outside!
S: Alright, alright, alright. A license.
C: Yes.
S: For a fish.
C: Yes.
S: You are a looney.
C: Look, it's a bleeding pet, isn't it? I've got a license for me pet dog Eric, and I've got a license for me pet cat Eric...
S: You don't need a license for your cat.
C: I bleeding well do and I got one. He can't be called Eric without it--
S: There's no such thing as a bloody cat license.
C: Yes there is!
S: Isn't!
C: Is!
S: Isn't!
C: I bleeding got one, look! What's that then?
S: This is a dog license with the word 'dog' crossed out and 'cat' written in in crayon.
C: The man didn't have the right form.
S: What man?
C: The man from the cat detector van.
S: The looney detector van, you mean.
C: Look, it's people like you what cause unrest.
S: What cat detector van?
C: The cat detector van from the Ministry of Housinge.
S: Housinge?
C: It was spelt like that on the van (I'm very observant!). I never seen so many bleeding aerials. The man said that their equipment could pinpoint a purr at four hundred yards! And Eric, being such a happy cat, was a piece of cake.
S: How much did you pay for this?
C: Sixty quid, and eight for the fruit-bat.
S: What fruit-bat?
C: Eric the fruit-bat.
S: Are all your pets called Eric?
C: There's nothing so odd about that: Kemal Ataturk had an entire menagerie called Abdul!
S: No he didn't!
C: Did!
S: Didn't!
C: Did, did, did, did, did and did!
S: Oh, all right.
C: Spoken like a gentleman, sir. Now, are you going to give me a fish license?
S: I promise you that there is no such thing: you don't need one.
C: In that case, give me a bee license.
S: A license for your pet bee?
C: Yes.
S: Called Eric? Eric the Bee?
C: No.
S: No?
C: No, Eric the Half-Bee. He had an accident.
S: You're off your chump.
C: Look, if you intend by that utilization of an obscure colloquiallism to imply that my sanity is not up to scratch, or indeed to deny the semi-existence of my little chum Eric the Half-Bee, I shall have to ask you to listen to this! Take it away, Eric the orchestra leader!.......

A one... two.... A one.. two.. three..four...

[piano intro]

Half a bee, philosophically, must, ipso facto, half not be.
But half the bee
has got to be,
vis a vis
its entity - do you see?

But can a bee
be said to be
or not to be
an entire bee
when half the bee
is not a bee
due to some ancient injury?

Singing...

La dee dee, 1 2 3,
Eric the half a bee.
A B C D E F G,
Eric the half a bee.

Is this retched demi-bee,
half asleep upon my knee,
some freak from a menagerie?
No! It's Eric the half a bee.

Fiddle dee dum,
Fiddle dee dee,
Eric the half bee.

Ho ho ho,
Tee hee hee,
Eric the half a bee.

I love this hive employee-ee-ee [with buzzing in background]
bisected accidentally
one summer afternoon by me
I love him carnally.

He loves him carnally... [together]
...semi-carnally

[spoken]

The end

"Cyril Connelly?"
No! "Semi-carnally"
Oh!

Cyril Connelly [sung softly and slowly]

[dead_elvis]

I always thought it was a software-type numbering, like Eric is only at release 0.5 beta in his personal development.

[science]

re:
That sounds like doublespeak to me. It's as though you're suggesting that one "One size fits all" method (for example, choosing your own groceries to purchase with your own money at the grocery store) is as good as another "One size fits all" method (collecting everyone's money together and then having a group of people tell you which groceries you are going to buy with the money they redistribute to you).

That is not what I suggest, though it may be what you infer. As long as you concede that education should be free to everyone, then there will be some element of public funding involved. Efficient and effective use should be the goal for each community. A voucher system might work in some small communities with a fairly homogenous income distribution. In most larger communities, it will create inequities by neighborhood (unless you include a transportation voucher, unlimited enrollment in each particular school, etc.). It sets up an incentive, in fact, to be a mid-level school so that you don't have to deal with the issues of overcrowding coming from everyone wanting to go to your school... blah, blah, blah.

Contextual information is going to be essential in deciding if a particular collective solution is appropriate for a particular community. I never said "vouchers always bad." I do think "let the family fend for themselves in the education of their children" makes no sense as long as we continue to mandate that all children are educated without cost (which I happen to think might be a good thing).

I must repeat this again. Vouchers are a collective solution... that might work for some communities. Don't pretend they are a panacea that will fix issues at a national level for what is a collection of local problems (if you don't believe that, we agree with each other).

School choice does not need to include a funding mechanism. If you support any form of publicly provided education, then the issues that are important do not so much involve how they are funded, as much as how they perform.

[biologist]

OK, Eric, nonetheless, there is a substantial genetic component to intelligence, even if there isn't evidence that there are statistically significant differences among ethnic groups. that could be true, or could be the result of type II statistical error. in the absence of evidence, I'll concede no statistically significant differences in innate intelligence among ethnic and racial groups.

still, my main points are:

1. nature vs. nurture is a false dichotomy

and

2. "If Asian students are doing well in Asian schools and American schools, are we overlooking a genetic component to academic success?" is not equal to "Anyone who think skin pigmentation is correlated with brain function needs a biology lesson. And also needs to look deeper, such as cultural expectations and demands." so there are still straw men and misrepresentations of twba's comment, followed by your misrepresentation of my point, or perhaps it wasn't clear to you. or you assumed facts not in evidence.

[happyjuggler0]

Science,

Ok one more time, and then I give up on trying to educate you. I suggest you read all the pages on Friedman's site before typing a response, but you are of course free to ignore my advice. The following two links look like they are things you should read, probably in that order. Then read my points below if you please.

http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/schoolchoice/state_of_schools.html

http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/schoolchoice/index.html

First of all, there is no such thing as a free education, to paraphrase Milton Friedman's famous statement from long ago regarding school lunch. I couldn't let that one pass without comment. 🙂 Read on though.

Second, school vouchers will be for the same amount of $ per pupil in the same grade throughout the city in question, regardless of which school the parent chooses.

Third, no one on this thread has advocated that the government shouldn't be providing "free" education for all kids. Vouchers are in fact nothing more than government-funded free education certificates controlled by parents, redeemable by a school that is prequalified. By prequalified I mean one that passes the state's minimum teacher certification etc.

Fourth, most, if not all, voucher programs will be in cities with a large enough population to support different types of schools, instead of small towns that can support only one school feasibly.

Fifth, vouchers are about giving parents the ability to fund their kids' education wherever they want. If they want to send their kids to government run schools, they are free to do so with vouchers. If they prefer a private non-profit school, they can send their kids their instead. If they prefer a private for-profit school, they can send their kids there instead. If they prefer to send their kid to a school that teaches Chinese in the 1st grade, they can do that, assuming such a school exists. Or Spanish. Or French. Or Japanese. They can send their kid to a school that seperates kids by gifted, remedial, and "normal". They can send their kids to a school that puts all three categories in the same classes. They can send their kids to vocational school. They can send their "authority challenged" kid (i.e. trouble maker that keeps getting kicked out of "normal schools") to a school that specializes in such behavioural problems. They can send their kid to a school for the artistically talented. Or one that is designed to prepare kids for a rigorous math and science college future.

Sixth, for-profit schools that try to make a profit at the expense of a good education will quickly find themselves without customers.

Seventh, schools that are so good that they find themselves inundated with your fear of too many students have a simple solution to that "problem". Expand the school. We should hope they "all" have that problem.

Will all these choices magically appear if people like you finally let the parents pick the schools instead of the government forcing the kids to go where it wants them to? No, but more and more choices will appear, and the kids and society at large will benefit by going to a school that better fits them.

Hopefully this is my last post in this thread. 😮

[science]

Not so happyjuggler 🙁

Sorry I frustrate you. It is not my intention to make you so unhappy. My posts are not even necessarily directed at you. I was just trying to contribute a perspective on the issue that recognized the fact that the issues are more complex than Milton Friedman or many on this board seem to think, and have little to do with the economics of educational systems.

I won't presume to send you to specific sources since I don't know your background or education or experience in the area (but am confident you can research this issue competently on your own). If you are comfortable with your understanding of the this issue, then continue to work towards the solution you see fit to pursue. I just hope you consider an assortment of options.

Re: people like you ...blah blah... forcing the kids to... blah...blah...more choices will appear...blah...blah.

I think you are confusing me with someone else, but it happens. I, again, never said vouchers might not work in some communities if structured properly... but vouchers have very little to do with creating or encouraging educational choices because public education is not ideally a game with winners and losers. And if that makes no sense to you, you might work on figuring out why.

To your seven lessons for the misguided me.

Point the first: give me a break. You know what I meant by free, and I know what you mean by no such thing.

Point the second: Yes I understand what I am talking about (I know how vouchers work). Maybe you need to work your way through some school budgets before you see how the very fact that they are equal for every child is a potential problem. Will there be additional funding provided to support infra-structure? Where will that come from? What happens if a school can't quite enroll enough kids to cover costs? where do those kids that enrolled in that school go? It can all be worked out fur sure, BUT again I say FUNDING SOURCE or MECHANISM ISN"T THE ISSUE...

Third: never said anyone advocated anything. Just pointing out that a true freemarket solution does not involve collecting taxes and redistributing them (selling off the schools was mentioned a few times, but I recognize that most aren't advocating that). But once you agree that education should be provided freely (read, at the same cost to all if you like that better), then you are talking about some variety of collective solution. The choice then becomes which one is likely to perform best for you community. I wouldn't put all your eggs in the voucher basket because FUNDING SOURCE or MECHANISM ISN'T THE ISSUE.

Fifth: Your characterization is a fantasy. To believe that competition for meager public funds alone will result in something much different than what we have now shows that you haven't thought the issue thru because FUNDING SOURCE or MECHANISM ISN'T THE ISSUE.

Sixth: You can keep customer's happy without providing good product. Go to Walmart or McD's sometime ... which is one of the reasons why FUNDING SOURCE or MECHANISM ISN'T THE ISSUE.

Seventh: Expand the school and you may lose what was good about it in the first place because PROFIT isn't a good motivation in educational facilities. Another reason
FUNDING SOURCE or MECHANISM ISN'T THE ISSUE.

Thanks for trying to educate me, but...I believe you are frustrated with the wrong guy here. It is possible, just maybe, that the one who needs to expand their understanding is part of the current dyad. Determing which of us it is might require some soul searching from both ends.

I won't suggest you widen your reading because I don't know what you read. I did read a good autobiography by one Samuel Delaney who went to a very creative school. Seems like (if I remember correctly) it was a public school in a large city (NYC). Pretty sure it was based on a model that would do poorly in the market place. But I like his science fiction books, so I am glad he went there to learn. It was a good solution for his community it seems.

[smacky]

FUNDING SOURCE or MECHANISM ISN'T THE ISSUE.

Just keep telling yourself that, science. Gee, that's a really good mantr- er, I mean, "argument"?

but vouchers have very little to do with creating or encouraging educational choices because public education is not ideally a game with winners and losers.

As a matter of fact, education is a game with winners and losers. If my kid is smarter and more capable in the end because of the "winning" school I sent him to, guess who's kid is going to get the job, the better paying salary, etc. etc.? Not the kid who went to the losing school. There is an inherent problem with your ideology -- if you believe that education and schools are meant to level the playing field societally, you're sadly mistaken. That is an utter fallacy. Society doesn't owe any student anything; I think someone already mentioned that the problem with American parents is that they expect society to find a place for their child, when in fact it's supposed to be the other way around: you find your own place. Smart students (i.e. smart people) know this and usually do as best they possibly can under their given circumstances.

And if that makes no sense to you, you might work on figuring out why.

Nice cop out.

You seem to lack a basic understanding of market-driven products.

[science]

Hmmm...Just make me soooo Smacky.

Re:You seem to lack a basic understanding of market-driven products.

Yawn. Nice Mantra.

I wish I had the clarity of Smacky, then I could be assured that all issues are economic in the end and I could solve all problems with economic solutions. I do believe there is a long tradition of that approach in education. It has worked out well, huh? Marx, I believe, also saw things from this narrow perspective. Effective educational reform may include a funding based solution, but in the end, the funding source or mechanism will not be the element that results in success or failure... it will be something else.

"Nice cop out." I see you have worked hard to understand my argument. You didn't cop out. You worked hard to figure out what I meant. You wouldn't just jump to some simplistic analogy regarding jobs and salaries that flow from the "winning" of some educational game. No, you took time to consider what I meant. Try again. Why wouldn't I think education is a winners/losers affair? What could I mean by that? Am I just a crazy idiot? Or did your dogma eat my argument in its rush to defend itself?

"Level playing field." Who are you arguing with. Not me.

"Doesn't owe any student anything?" Well, unless you count an opportunity to learn, and a whole list of natural rights that are the basis for a libertarian political philosophy.

"I think someone already mentioned that the problem with American parents..."

My major point again (for smacky, who reads between the lines, but forgets to read the lines) is that if you think you know what THE PROBLEM with American education is, you are simplifying the issue (which does reduce your own cognitive dissonance I realize, but don't let the grown up view scare you so much, you can understand it with some effort I promise). What you have identified is A PROBLEM that SOME parents have...Read a book, or better yet a peer reviewed journal. Get involved in your local school and find a solution for your own community, but don't pretend you've got a handle on the national problem.

Or you can Watch 20/20 on Friday. I am sure Johnny boy will make you feel reeealll smart 'cuz he'll tell you you're right (It is simple Smacky. Everything is a market and we are all consumers). Then you won't have to consider anyone else's perspective. Cuz' it really is all economics. The solution really is simple. Parent choice only has one definiton. Success in education really is a zero sum game.

Yawn.