Liberal Hawks Still Ignoring the Beam In Their Own Eyes
This is more than a month old, but I recommend Sam Rosenfeld and Matthew Yglesias' takedown in The American Prospect of the liberal hawks and the "Incompetence Dodge"—wherein the liberal hawks blame the Bush Administration's bungling for their own buyer's remorse about not getting the war they wanted. (Apparently they wanted a war where nobody dies.) The desertion of the liberal hawks is a topic after my own heart, but Yglesias and Rosenfeld have a decidedly different take on it:
This position may have its own internal logical coherence, but in the real world, it's wrong. Though defending the competence of the Bush administration is a fool's endeavor, administrative bungling is simply not the root source of America's failure in Iraq. The alternative scenarios liberal hawks retrospectively envision for a successful administration of the war reflect blithe assumptions -- about the capabilities of the U.S. military and the prospects for nation building in polities wracked by civil conflict -- that would be shattered by a few minutes of Googling.
The incompetence critique is, in short, a dodge -- a way for liberal hawks to acknowledge the obviously grim reality of the war without rethinking any of the premises that led them to support it in the first place. In part, the dodge helps protect its exponents from personal embarrassment. But it also serves a more important, and dangerous, function: Liberal hawks see themselves as defenders of the legitimacy of humanitarian intervention -- such as the Clinton-era military campaigns in Haiti and the Balkans -- and as advocates for the role of idealism and values in foreign policy…
It sounds alluring. But it's backward: An honest reckoning with this war's failure does not threaten the future of liberal interventionism. Instead, it is liberal interventionism's only hope…
Reckoning with fact, by contrast, might have led to some acknowledgement of the tragic worldview that is, however much our better angels may not prefer it, a necessary component of foreign policy making in a world characterized by far more "less bad" options than genuinely good ones. It is perhaps a seduction peculiar to liberalism, which wants to believe the best about human nature, to ignore the tragic character of much of the world -- and to reflexively interpret the failures of an ambitious social-engineering endeavor as evidence of bad technocratic management rather than mistaken premises. Recognizing the flaws of the incompetence argument when it comes to Iraq would necessarily lead liberal hawks to acknowledge that not all interventions are created equal.
It's a pretty thorough piece that dismantles a variety of liberal hawk excuses. I've never been sure what the liberal hawks were expecting to get out of this war. They've got Saddam on trial, various elections, and an assortment of Kodak moments, at a cost of 2,000 American lives. Isn't this better than any reasonable person had a right to expect?
But to keep the liberal hawk phenomenon straight, you have to keep a few things in mind:
1. It's not new. Am I the only one who remembers the Prospect when it was giving Sidney Blumenthal a forum to kick Dole for his "isolationism" against Democrat wars? The rise of the neoconservatives is the main reason war is now defined as a conservative issue—and the neocons are by definition (and for the most part by biography) people rooted in the left. Even the liberal New Republic has rarely met a war it didn't like. After looking at a stack of 1964-'65 issues, I found that TNR did in fact oppose the Vietnam War pretty much from the beginning, but with that exception (admittedly a pretty big exception), I can't think of a war the magazine didn't cheer for. Take this to the bank: When the United States is weighing its next military adventure, TNR will, after ostentatious deliberation, regretfully conclude that yes, war is our country's only option.
2. The excogitating class' pattern of enthusiasm followed by regret follows a very dependable historic pattern. Randolph Bourne's essay "The War and the Intellectuals" is a study in the way intellectuals of the World War I period imagined themselves as major world leaders. Intellectuals are always desperate to feel like they're important historical actors. Woodrow Wilson threw some ideological dog biscuits their way, and they decided all the gassy talk about democracy and a league of nations meant that the intellectuals themselves were driving the war effort rather than just shilling for it. Compare that with the inflated sense of self-importance evident in the way the liberal hawks used to gas about holding Bush to his democratic promises and jumping into the justification-vacuum created by the WMD fiasco. The intellectuals always end up disappointed, but they don't learn.
3. Ultimately, Rosenfeld and Yglesias are trying to rescue liberal interventionism from people they believe abused it. This piece is a good reminder of why I have no truck with people who consider Bill Clinton's Kosovo adventure—which was illegal under both the U.S. Constitution and whatever passes for international law and has produced a judicial circus with an audience even smaller than the Hoxie Bros. Circus—a success. Liberal interventionism doesn't deserve to be rescued. It deserves to have a stake driven through its heart and to be buried in a garlic-filled coffin.
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"...not all interventions are created equal."
Yes, they are only in favor of the easy ones; those ones make great PR for the Democrats.
And liberalism's tendency to ignore the tragic nature of life isn't a only a seduction, it's a fatal flaw.
Brilliant! So it's the liberals, not the administration, who put the "fuck" in the clusterfuck that is Iraq War. Naturally. Was there ever any doubt?
The whole piece is based on the unexamined, and in my mind deeply flawed, assumption that we have failed in Iraq.
Failed at what, exactly? Saddam is gone, Iraq is a net consumer, not exporter or supporter, of Islamist terrorists, Iraq will not be in the WMD business in the foreseeable future, the Iraqis already have a more functional democracy than any other Mideast country except Israel. Even the majority of Iraqis are feeling optimistic these days.
You can point to a number of areas where we have progressed toward our strategic objectives because of the Iraq war. I don't think you can point to any significant progress by our Islamist enemies, with the notable exception of the Iranian nuclear program.
Could it have been done better? Sure, hindsight, 20/20, blah blah. Could it have been done for free? No.
Yes, they are only in favor of the easy ones; those ones make great PR for the Democrats.
To be fair, not just Democrats have grabbed the low hanging fruit, just for different reasons. Granada and Panama, anyone?
And liberalism's tendency to ignore the tragic nature of life isn't a only a seduction, it's a fatal flaw.
sadly but deeply true, i fear.
Failed at what, exactly?
while assertions of failure may or may not be premature, mr dean, what is certainly premature is the assumption of success.
i would agree that the war hardly failed to do what it set out to -- it *couldn't* do most of the things it set out to because everything it explicitly set out to do was based on a lie of some variety or another.
but, even if we ignore that for the cause du jour and what was probably the driving premise all along -- global democratic revolution -- we have to say that assuming a more functional democracy than any other Mideast country except Israel isn't saying much. moreover, that "democracy" really isn't -- it's underwritten by american military force and treasury funds with american-approved candidates running for office -- and the sudden removal of some critical mass of american power from the equation may topple this particular house of cards in a week, resulting in a shia tyranny and/or civil war.
Iraq is a net consumer, not exporter or supporter, of Islamist terrorists,
Is this not a failure?
Iraq will not be in the WMD business in the foreseeable future
Nor was Iraq much in the WMD business in the recent past before the war.
the Iraqis already have a more functional democracy than any other Mideast country except Israel
Yet Iraq is still a big huge shithole, possibly bigger than when Hussein was in power.
If we're gonna build nations, I want the result to be a place where I wouldn't mind living. Iraq isn't now that place, and doesn't look like it will be anytime soon.
So, RC, what foreign policy goals did we achieve by invading? Other than exposing ourselves as liars before the world? Introducing a doctrine of pre-emptive war which will come back top haunt us sooner or later? Fighting Islamic terrorism by toppling a secular government and replacing it with a theocratic one? And still sucking up to the Saudis who funded the 9-11 attacks?
At least the Iranians are happy Saddam is gone--Chalabi was a fine investment for them. But the thought of my countrymen dying to make IRAN a happier and safer nation is bullshit.
R C Dean-
Iraq is indeed a "net consumer" of terrorism, but that's not due solely to changes on the domestic supply side. There's also an increase in imports, in response to our presence.
Say what you will about the reasons for that, but don't try to say that the "net consumer" thing is A Good Thing. It isn't. There are many widows and orphans, both American and Iraqi, who can testify to that.
Again, this is not in and of itself a case against our policies. But don't try to take bugs and turn them into features. Be honest about the costs and benefits, if you're so confident that it's been worth the cost. Honest hawks will put the events that have made Iraq a "net consumer" of terrorism in the "minus" column, not the "plus" column.
I remember Mort Sahl commenting many years ago how all our wars happened under the Democrats.
To which one might add, Republicans who act like Democrats (and when you think about it, isn't that a perfect definition of "neoconservative")...
Also, is there any event that wouldn't be spun as "not a bug, it's a feature!"?
Also, is there any event that wouldn't be spun as "not a bug, it's a feature!"?
Bug: According to a news article I read today, many Iraqi women and young girls are being forced into prostitution.
Feature: Maybe the Middle East will become more peaceful now that males have an outlet for their sexual frustrations!
Jennifer-
See, if Iraq were as bad as you claim, then all those women would be stoned to death for engaging in prostitution.
Do you see any dead hookers? I don't. The place must be doing fine.
Also, is there any event that wouldn't be spun as "not a bug, it's a feature!"?
i doubt it, mr thoreau. if the tendency to ignore the tragic nature of life is the hallmark of liberalism, can there be any doubt that the republican party has become, under bush and the neocons, a bastion of the most egregious sort of militant liberalism.
I just realized that with all this talk of Iraqi hookers I could make some "net consumer" jokes.
But I won't go there.
Thoreau--
I have no doubt that when these young girls are raped so their pimp/kidnappers can make an extra couple bucks, the main thought going through their heads is "I am so fucking (pun intended) glad that the United States invaded my country! Constant rape and some vaginal tearing is a small price to pay for this wonderful freedom I now enjoy."
Jennifer, being raped by a John is better than being put in a plastic shredder.
Iraq is a net consumer, not exporter or supporter, of Islamist terrorists
and need we say that the likelihood is that iraq, like the afghanistan of the 1980s, has become a sort of production facility for terrorists? if it consumes its output now, wonderful -- but what of the day when its ability to produce and service terrorism exceeds its internal demand?
RC, if I suggest that the Iraqi exercise has been so successful that we should leave NOW, are you going to trot out an even longer list of things we haven't successfully accomplished as reasons why we should remain there?
It's like I said before--the United States has been reduced to the status of the big, muscular (but generally powerless) guy who hates the fact that his boss keeps yelling at him. And he wants to lash out at somebody, but he can't lash out at his boss without getting into big trouble--so he goes home and beats his wife instead. It doesn't solve his problem, but he feels much better for it. Manly.
So we really can't do jack shit to Saudi Arabia, which after Afghanistan was the main culprit behind 9-11. . . . but we CAN and DID totally beat the shit out of a piss-poor country that had nothing to do with 9-11 but is at least small enough for us to crush!
Well, Jennifer, we can always beat up some Iraqi prostitutes.
Thoreau--
Just so long as we beat up SOMEBODY.
Russ D - excellent question for Mr Dean.
"Could it have been done better?" - RC Dean
Yeah, we could've kept our dicks outta the beehive.
"Even the majority of Iraqis are feeling optimistic these days." - RC Dean
Proof, please.
And it's real great that we're fighting a bunch of terrorists over there. Maybe a lot of them wouldn't have become terrorists if we hadn't invaded Iraq...did that ever cross your mind, RC? Oh, you say I can't prove it did? Well, you can't prove it didn't, so you can't really trot that out as some positive thing.
Again, now that we're there, let's try to do it right (something this administration can't do, apparently, but still). But why we went over there just makes absolutely no sense, unless you just want to go totally imperial and we had gone over there to secure...and I mean secure all that oil in Iraq...
So much for reason.
It's impossible to have any kind of rational discussion about Iraq.
JonBuck, do you call this irrational because of the ones who support the war, or those who oppose it? What qualifications must be met for a rational discussion, do you think?
Why JonBuck, whatevah do you mean? 🙂
Seriously, though, you can't say it's ...impossible to have any kind of rational discussion about Iraq... without offering any input of your own. Maybe it's possible for some people to have a rational discussion about Iraq, and you're automatically tuning them out.
What do you think about Iraq?
I don't buy into the whole "Bush lied, people died" meme--it's clear a whole lot of people had certain ideas about Iraq that had varying bases in reality. I'm sure people in the Administration were guilty of believing stuff that fit their preconceptions, but Iraq had enough nastiness going on to justify that. It's the same reason we blew up stuff pretty much on a regular basis in Iraq since the Gulf War. And it's the same reason many Democrats supported the latest war. Not to mention, post-9/11 America had a strong urge to use its might to freakin' solve the problem that is the Middle East. Not entirely rational behavior on anyone's part, but I think it's less pre-meditated and evil than a lot of people suggest. And don't talk to me about oil. If it was about oil, why not invade Venezuela? Though I should say that oil is clearly why the House of Saud still exists.
In any event, we're there, and we owe the people of Iraq a little stability before we pull out. And, frankly, I'm a little tired of the craziness out there myself and secretly hope we manage to impose some sort of liberal society on at least one Arab nation. There, I said it. Uh, oh 🙂 Though, I hasten to add that we were 50% of the way there with Iran, but were too interested in playing at real politik and failed to exert our enormous influence with the Shah to get him to stop oppressing the people so much. Oops.
On a side note, I wonder if we should just use force to remove governments when these situations arise. We lose about ten soldiers when we do that, and we don't have to deal with all of the political fallout afterwards. Go in, zap whomever, leave. If we don't like the next whomever, we go back and zap again. Rinse. Repeat. Not that I advocate such things--I'm with Asmiov: "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
There's a difference between flaming and having fun. Jennifer and I are just having fun. My first two posts in this thread were serious, and I would be curious to know what R C and others think of the points raised.
My posts about Iraqi hookers, of course, were mostly joking. (The fact that more women have to turn to prostitution is, of course, a serious matter, but my "Do you see any dead hookers? Must be OK then!" post was obviously not meant seriously.)
I don't think I need to invite serious hawks to disregard those posts, since I'm quite confident that they will recognize them as jokes and move on.
As best as I can derive , the reason most people give for Iraq being a failure is the continual bombing by 'insurgents'. So if any political party in any nation is now unhappy about losing an election all they have to do is place carbombs all arouind the country , killing civilians (as opposed to troops) and that state will be declared a 'failure'? It's amazing to me how a few , acting like spoiled brats with big boy toys (weapons) cancreate sympathy , but troops (American and Iraqi) putting their lives on the line for a new start on governing are dismissed as 'failing'.
Ditto what Thoreau said, but the article about women being kidnapped and forced into prostitution is an actual story, not just flaming. Part of the general collapse in the country; things are far more dangerous for Iraqi women since we got there. They can't even leave their houses without male protection.
And I meant what I said about the wife-beater metaphor: I really think we lashed out at Iraq from a blind desire to hit SOMEBODY, combined with the knowledge that even we--the Mightiest Country on Earth--can't invade Saudi Arabia without causing serious damage to ourselves in the process.
Oh, and just to clarify:
It is perhaps a seduction peculiar to liberalism, which wants to believe the best about human nature, to ignore the tragic character of much of the world
No. Wrong. I am a liberal as well as a complete misanthrope with a very low opinion of human nature. Which is why I'm a liberal in the first place--I don't want to give anybody the authority to force his particular religious/psychosexual morality/bigotry on me.
"it's underwritten by american military force and treasury funds with american-approved candidates running for office -- and the sudden removal of some critical mass of american power from the equation may topple this particular house of cards in a week, resulting in a shia tyranny and/or civil war."
this resembles Europe in many ways both hitoricaly after ww2 and durring the cold war and the underwritten by american military force is still true today...just thought i would throw that on in for fun. 🙂
I don't buy into the whole "Bush lied, people died" meme
mr liberate, i must admit i find it difficult to believe that some still accord their government the benefit of the doubt -- in light of stovepiping, yellowcake/plame, aipac, and the almost endless list of confirmed fabrications that are constantly repeated by the likes of cheney and rumsfeld. why do you do it? out of a misplaced fealty to the nation? you aren't protectingthe country by hoping these people are making honest mistakes.
we owe the people of Iraq a little stability before we pull out.
i think murtha's (quite valid) point is that our presence is a huge, perhaps the primary source of instability.
Even with my more moderate feelings about the war, I tend to agree with Jennifer--at least in part--that we wanted to punch someone in the face, and Iraq became a convenient target. I think we'd have gone after even Saudi Arabia if the 9/11 connection with its government had been strong enough. Heck, in October 2001, I was wondering if we weren't just going to talk Europe and the UN into agreeing that the whole region needed occupation. That, or maybe just tell Israel to have at it. We were not a happy population at the time, that's for sure.
Jennifer:
I call it irrational because there is no effort to find concensus. No effort to reconcile. No agreement on our national goals.
My feeling is that regardless of the reasons for this war, there are really only two ways out of Iraq: Victory or defeat. We owe it to the Iraqis to follow through on our committments. As for liberal hawks:
"It appears that with the deadline for exile come and gone, Saddam Hussein has chosen to make military force the ultimate weapons inspections enforcement mechanism. If so, the only exit strategy is victory, this is our common mission and the world's cause. We're in this together. We want to complete the mission while safeguarding our troops, avoiding innocent civilian casualties, disarming Saddam Hussein and engaging the community of nations to rebuild Iraq." -- John Kerry, March 20 2003. (emphasis mine)
From my reading of military blogs, things are going better in Iraq than the media portrays. This is from reading blogs like Stategypage and Indepundit. I feel that victory really is within our grasp, in spite of the President's apparent incompetence.
I think we'd have gone after even Saudi Arabia if the 9/11 connection with its government had been strong enough.
It probably was strong enough, until the State Department blacked all Saudi references out of the 9-11 commission report.
Liberal Hawks Still Ignoring the Beam In Their Own Eyes
Well, geeze, can't be too many of them then, right? If we had lots of flying liberals with eyebeams helping out with the war, we'd be done by now.
I think since we had UN coverage to invade helped a little. For all the stupid Immanent Treat stuff spouted by Bush, we went after someone with UN sanctions against them.
Besides all the rhetoric coming from France and Germany at the time, didn't they vote with the rest of the SC to authorize action (vaguely)?
That's why I keep wondering about Syria and Iran, and which will be targeted by France in the UN so the US can follow up with an invasion.
"I don't want to give anybody the authority to force his particular religious/psychosexual morality/bigotry on me."
damn right sister now lets go out and kill some libral femenists to free of ourselves from thier opression.
🙂
anyway back to seroiusness how is this different or worse then what was under suddam and his rapist sons?
oh yeah I know women can now vote and have access to a free and open press. The liberation of Iraq (is there anyway of saying that without sounding ironic or hokey) will in no way emidiatly change middle eastern misogany...i don't think that claim was ever made. But at least women in iraq now have a voice and a fighting chance...what more do you expect?
the only exit strategy is victory
i'd like to ask mr kerry what the hell he thinks victory is going to look like. and if it's even possible that we'll see it.
anyway back to seroiusness how is this different or worse then what was under suddam and his rapist sons? oh yeah I know women can now vote and have access to a free and open press. The liberation of Iraq (is there anyway of saying that without sounding ironic or hokey) will in no way emidiatly change middle eastern misogany...i don't think that claim was ever made. But at least women in iraq now have a voice and a fighting chance...what more do you expect?
Here's what they've lost under our occupation: the ability to hold jobs outside the home. The ability to leave the home unescorted by a male. The ability to go out without a burka. The ability to freely associate with male friends. Now they're basically under gender-based house arrest, but at least they got their fingers dyed purple after they voted!
Gaius, I distrust the government on principle, and this particular government (not just the POTUS and his appointees but the current gang of bureaucrats and Congressmen, too) all the more, but the evidence out there is mixed. Plenty of the stuff the Administration said had been said before they were in power. I don't know what they really believed and what they didn't, and I'm even willing to believe some of what they said were lies, but the idea that everything was fabricated just doesn't ring true to me. Not because the government isn't capable of it, I just don't buy it from a logic standpoint.
Perhaps my greatest frustration with the world is how hard it is to know the truth. I'm so sick of "spin" and all of the lying that goes on, but I hesitate to totally retreat into believing that everything people I disagree with say is false.
Which is why I'm a liberal in the first place--I don't want to give anybody the authority to force his particular religious/psychosexual morality/bigotry on me.
Well, on social issues that viewpoint matches up well with liberalism...but what about economic issues? Liberals are all too happy to take and spend my money on their own particular causes, which often have a pseudo-religious character.
Well, on social issues that viewpoint matches up well with liberalism...but what about economic issues? Liberals are all too happy to take and spend my money on their own particular causes, which often have a pseudo-religious character.
True enough, Crimethink. But it's a lesser-of-two-evils thing. I'd rather be taxed to pay for a home for unwed mothers, than imprisoned for having sex outside of marriage. Or, as I said today on a drug-war thread, I'd rather pay tax for free painkillers for old farts, than to imprison drug users.
Jennifer, that would be a more reasonable position than what liberals en masse actually vote for and what liberal politicians do.
"I think we'd have gone after even Saudi Arabia if the 9/11 connection with its government had been strong enough."
How is putting a Shia dominated democracy right on the northern boarder of Saudi Arabia not going after them?
How is putting a Shia dominated democracy right on the northern boarder of Saudi Arabia not going after them?
So now you're saying that Iraq's having a government cozy with the government of Iran was really our plan all along?
How is putting a Shia dominated democracy right on the northern boarder of Saudi Arabia not going after them?
Are you saying that a Shia dominated theocracy isn't really a bug, but rather a feature?
Damn, Thoreau. You're good.
Ron Popeil should come to this forum. He can persuade people that ANYTHING kicks ass!
I've been totally blind. Iran is a big hoax. The hostage thing, the nukes, all of it. What's actually happening is that we're restoring the Persian Empire and Zoroastrism, with a Hellenistic Renaissance thrown in. How wise we are.
Admittedly I haven't read the Iraqi prostitution article nor do I really care to, but I assume that this is only occuring in certain pockets of the shia population? As a point of contrast, how many women are forced into prostitution in the United States? How many women in the US have been forced into demeaning marital situations? Have you been to Utah lately?
Clearly these atrocities toward women aren't Iraq's burden alone. The culture vacuum created by Saddam was replaced, in this case, by extremist muslims. But their actions are solely their fault, not ours.
With that said the argument probably then morphs into "Well they weren't doing it before we were there". This outcome is expected, however. It has been shown time and time again that fascism, dictatorship, and totalitarianism can be used as tools to squeeze violent crime among the population to almost nil. By that metric, they constitute "safer" countries. But that's not the metric we use, for good reason. It might be cute to mock the purple finger, but women in Iraq now wield far more political power then they did before.
I think givin the choice between Iran and Saudia Arabia I would choose Iran everytime...we seem to be focusing on women's issues so lets compare.
Women in Saudi Arabia can't vote can't drive can't get an education, can't get a job, can't hold office, and can't apeal to a courts...in Iran they can.
oh yeah and Saudi Arabia blew up 3000 americans with planes...Iran has been relativly good recently. I really wish Bush would go to Terran...or Clinton did or the hope beyond hopes the next guy (or girl) goes.
It might be cute to mock the purple finger, but women in Iraq now wield far more political power then they did before.
They can't leave their fucking homes without some shithead throwing acid in their faces. How does that equal empowerment to you?
Joshua--
What point are you trying to make? I've said before that Iran is less bad than Arabia from a woman's perspective; are you saying that because of this it's a good thing that we've turned Iraq into Iran's ally?
Oh yeah and just a side note...A Shia democratic majority in Iraq does not in anyway put an Iranian theocracy in control.
Under your metric Pakistan is now controlled by Iranian Shai.
A Shia democratic majority in Iraq does not in anyway put an Iranian theocracy in control.
I never said it did; I said it makes them ALLIED with Iran.
"I never said it did; I said it makes them ALLIED with Iran."
Good then an Iraqi Shia dominated democracy that is cozy with the US (and yes they are cozy and will likely only become more so) can pull Iran's thocratic democracy out of the dark ages.
joshua-
What you describe sounds less like a liberal republic and more like a client state.
I think we should aim higher, if we're going to aim at all.
It's just a matter of time before Iran figures it out. Most of the people in Iran are young and want to wear designer jeans, listen to rock or dance music, have sex, make money, and all the other things young people usually want to do.
Unfortunately, a theocracy controls the government, but I would think with a little time, liberalism will prevail there. For us to go around threatening them only provokes the theocracy and makes the average Iranian question our motives.
Lowdog, I am not saying we should threaten Iran; I'm merely suggesting that turning Iraq from a secular country that hated Iran into a theocracy that likes Iran was perhaps not an original US policy goal in regards to the Iraq War.
You guys need stop trying to convince yourselfs that Iraq is not a stratigic gain for the united states and democratic revolution.
I realise there are other arguments against the war but saying that libraliszing iraq is bad for US goals in Iran and Saudi Arabia then I have to point out how far a feild you have wandered. It is pretty damn far.
I wasn't commenting on anything you had said, Jennifer. I was just throwing out a semi-educated opinion (I've got an Iranian friend who tells me a lot of things, plus I've read about the disparity of young vs old in Iran).
I'm hoping Iraq doesn't become a theocracy (as I'm sure you, a fellow atheist, would know). I think there will be more religious elements to it than with Saddam, but as has been pointed out, ruthlessly keeping religion down through toture and a vicious spy network isn't exactly a liberal/libertarian wet-dream.
We really need to be going around Iraq with our superiour weapon technology and support and killing lots of insurgents. We should also be continually training and "indoctrinating" the Iraqi security forces/army so they can be ready to take over for us, hopefully very soon. Of course, the infiltration of insurgents (into police/military/etc) hurts this area quite a bit, but what the fuck else are we supposed to do? Just bugging out now probably would be a bad idea, allowing the country to degenerate even worse.
At the same time, maybe a prolonged civil war in Iraq wouldn't be so bad for US interests. Humanitarily it would be a disaster, but I'm obviously fairly heartless because I don't think humanitarian reasons are really super-persuasive for our military to get involved in a region.
"Apparently they wanted a war where nobody dies."
Yea. Sure Tim. I'm sure that's what they wanted.
The incompetence critique is, in short, a dodge -- a way for liberal hawks to acknowledge the obviously grim reality of the war without rethinking any of the premises that led them to support it in the first place.
Incompetence is like pregnancy--either you are or you aren't. ...and if you are, you're full of promise.
The incompetent among us may do something stupid for good reasons, or they may do something smart for stupid reasons. ...but neither of these alternatives makes them competent.
I've said it before: I prefer a competent occupation to an incompetent withdrawal, and a competent withdrawal to an incompetent occupation. ...Whether we stay or go is less important than the manner in which we stay or go.
That wasn't true with the decision to invade or not invade. Whether we invaded or not was more important than the manner in which we did so. These guys are right to point that out.
I have to repeat the question, how is the policy a failure? If the answer is over 2000 of America?s best have died. Then the argument seems to be one of pacifism vs. intervention. There may be some who thought we would stage a little air war and in a few months everyone would get ribbons and come home. I for one never believed that, and thought the war would be much more similar to the Philippine American war then our expedition in the Balkans. Let me remind you that in the 3 declared years of that war we lost twice as many (over 4000) Americans fighting an insurgency, of Moslems, which lingered for another 16 years. Funny thing is I never hear anyone say, " Iraq is another Philippines." You can even throw in American soldiers torture of insurgents too if you want to draw an even closer comparison. Anyone who advocated war and has regrets because it is harder thatn they thought or because people die deserves to be ridiculed, but not everyone thought it would be easy; for anyone who has read even the smallest amount on military campaigns know that it is not.
So what have we gained. Sadam is out of power. He is not gassing his people or the Iranians. The Arab street is marching against Al Quade (see 200,000 in Jordon last week). Marching for Democracy ( see Lebanon). A major nuclear arms proliferation racket was uncovered and stopped ( see Libya, Pakistan, North Korea, and Iran). And there is a country that is going to be having its 3rd election in a year coming up this next month. And I think that is no small thing. I look back to our past mistakes. I didn't think they were at the time, but now do. In 1989 there was the Tiananmen square massacre. Did we step up and confront the Chinese, and I don't mean move the fleet, but just our government step back on trade relations? No, a few days later we essentially said to China, "That's cool, no worries. We still want to buy your sweetshop products at cheep prices." In 1994 in Rwanda did we send the Marines to stop the genocide? No. In order to not embarrass the Europeans, or maybe just as and excuse We said, "what 10 Belgian peace keepers died? If the Belgians can't stop it what can we do." I admit I didn't think it was our fight then, but now I am ashamed of both of these incidents. We should have done something then, and today I am going to stand behind those Iraqis who want a democracy and not live under Sadam's or his son's thumb. Call me a cretin, a war monger, whatever. I think it is the right thing to do, and call myself a liberal for it.
"Iraq is a net consumer, not exporter or supporter, of Islamist terrorists"
Iraq is a net PRODUCER of terrorists. Some are consumed for the local market, some are imported, and some are exported, but Iraq seems to be inspiring the production of more units than it consumes.
Nice try, Rush.
The asshats who like to say that invading Iraq puts pressure on the Saudis must live in a real interesting alternate universe where the Saudis _actually_ cracked down on terrorism before alQaeda screwed up and attacked _them_ prematurely.
I can't think of how we could have put any _less_ pressure on the Saudis than we did, other than to have Dick Cheney have us bend over for oil companies or something like that. Oops.
The premise for most previous comments in this thread has been Jennifer's unsupported - and wildly improbable - assertion that life was paradise for iraqi women under Saddam's tyranny, where a legion of hard-working and on-the-ball iraqi civilian cops were nose-to-the-grindstone enforcing the Mid-East's most progressive civil code...even in the heart of Sadr City, under a UN sanction regime that left at least 60 to 70% of Iraq entirely out of work.
And, of course, we know that outrages against women didn't occur in the Saddam time (and violent crime, generally) because Saddam's cops would have known about it, and reported the stats accurately?
Believe that? thoreau? Whadd'ya say?
Jennifer?
(Yeah, I'm back.)
BTW...is not that same civil code still in effect, for the time being? What? the cops aren't always effective ( or enthusiastic) re. enforcing it? Not Johnny-On-The-Ball...as in Saddam's day?
Thoreau - a Shiite majority elected Shiite politicians (funny how those things happen when you have elections, as opposed to Sunni politicians tyrannizing and brutalizing everyone)...and is this a theocracy, or even an Iranian ally?
Andrew,
How are people supposed to consider your arguments seriously when you deliberately misrepresent what Jennifer has asserted? That's a really rotten way to disagree with someone.
is this a theocracy
Technically, no. Unless by theocracy you mean a game of Simon says.
Andrew-
First, welcome back! We've occasionally had one or two other people show up and post with the same name, and every time I check the email address to see if it's you.
Second, Jennifer never said that pre-invasion Iraq was a paradise for women. She implied that things went from really bad to even worse for Iraqi women. You can disagree with that if you like, but at least disagree with what she actually said and not with what you wish she said.
I never expressed agreement with that sentiment. Instead, I began the long holiday weekend by joking about. ("No dead hookers? Alright then!")
I don't think that theocracy is the right word to apply to the Iraqi gov't right now. My only commentary on that matter in this thread was:
I wrote that in response to:
You see, joshua corning was taking that suggestion (that Iraq is a Shia theocracy) and arguing that it's actually a good thing. Personally, I think that there are good pro-war arguments out there, and the war supporters would do well to tell the "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" folks to shut the hell up.
I'll be happy to debate you, Andrew, but it will go much better if you don't try to put words in my mouth.
Finally, for the record I don't think that Iraq is a theocracy right now. I do think that some of Iraq's leaders are disturbingly cozy with the Iranians, and I'm not referring to the liberals of Khatami's former administration. I'm not trying to make an anti-war argument here, so don't take it as such. But it's certainly, well, disturbing.
Yes...it IS a very important foreign policy goal not to have Iraq and Iran fight each other again, and it was a central reason for removing Saddam.
Duh, not having a war between two of three contiguous oil states (of the three largest in the world) seems like a sensible goal for the world's largest economy, dontcha think?
And you might even be mindful of a couple million humans consumed in the last Iran-Iraq brawl.
Some Shiite politicians in Baghdad are sounding like they may never take their country to war with Iran again, and...
...Thoreau, are you trying to take this virtue, and make it a "bug"?
Every other week, the anti-war whine is that a Shiite majority elected a Shiite government...
...because A.) they will represent the majority that elected them, and b) aren't likely to make war on the nation Saddam did. Such problems!
Yes...it IS a very important foreign policy goal not to have Iraq and Iran fight each other again, and it was a central reason for removing Saddam.
First, I agree that avoiding war between Iran and Iraq is a VERY GOOD THING. And it is most CERTAINLY a feature!
That doesn't mean that the leaders of the up and coming liberal beacon of the Middle East need to be BFF (best friends forever) with the theocrats next door. It's not like their only choices are (a) war or (b) best buddies with theocrats.
Of course, I don't know enough to say for certain that this is indeed the situation. But it is telling that you are more interested in spinning the possibility than in refuting it.
Finally, while I'm a big fan of avoiding regional wars, I didn't realize that peace between Iran and Iraq was one of the central reasons for removing Saddam Hussein from power. That list of central reasons keeps changing every week, which makes it really hard for poor doves like myself to argue with hawks.
A question for those who follow these sorts of details:
I keep reading that some of Iraq's Shia leaders have friendly ties to Iran. Does anybody know whether, prior to the June elections in Iran, these Iraqi leaders enjoyed friendly relations with Khatami's reformist administration? Or did they not bother with Khatami, and mostly focus on cultivating ties with the theocrats?
Cultivating ties with theocrats might be understandable, given that Khatami and the prior reformist parliament had little real power. Still, it would be encouraging if it should turn out that some of the Iraqi leaders felt it important to be friends with liberals next door.
Does anybody know?
Whatever Jennifer's assertions may be, she is scant on supporting any of them. I have to wonder whatr life was like in Sadr City BEFORE Saddam fell. What we hear often now, is that like many of the slums in police states, cops ignored crimes that were not "political" in nature - as long as the regime's OK, they don't care. I find it hard to believe Saddam's cops were running themselves ragged enforcing the Scarf Law. In Jordan the cops can't keep fathers from honor-killing daughters, and I somehow doubt they did a better job in Saddam's Iraq. (Hell, they don't do an effective job in Paris!)
Unemployment was %70 in Saddam's Iraq...probably more like 100% in Sadr City - did Leila have a job? Think so?
Thoreau
I would challenge you to link to a single extended statement detailing America's rationale for taking down Saddam which didn't reference his previous aggressions against Kuwait and Iran...is ADD a problem with doves?
I should have said FOUR contiguous oil states.
OK, I do recall a lot of mentions of aggression against his neighbors. Fair point.
thoreau
Good to be talking with you again. I don't want to sound too bitchy. Partly just getting used to posting again. I get TOO pithy!
Also, when I have dropped in to read, it sounded like a smug self-congratulatory circle-jerk...not enough debate or balance.
I suppose there is a loss of order whenever a society unwinds from a police state...but it is chilling and eerie to hear a chorus of leftists and liberals (and libertarians among them) get exercised if the streets aren't safe in three weeks. Don't you think?
"How is putting a Shia dominated democracy right on the northern boarder of Saudi Arabia not going after them?
Comment by: joshua corning at November 23, 2005 04:53 PM
You see, joshua corning was taking that suggestion (that Iraq is a Shia theocracy) and arguing that it's actually a good thing."
yeah i wasn't responding to you on that one i was responding to someone elses comment about why we didn't go after saudia arabia.
and what i ment by shia dominated democracy was that its existince would put a real heel into the back of the house of saud...like "dear Prince why can the iraqis have a free press and we cannot? and why does my daughter keep asking me to drive like Iraqi women can? and why is it so hard for me to get a job here but jobs are plentiful in Iraq" and on and on and on.
It is no secret that canada became a democracy seperate from Briton becouse of its proximity to the US. (well that and the US would have takin it over if they hadn't)
I would challenge you to link to a single extended statement detailing America's rationale for taking down Saddam which didn't reference his previous aggressions against Kuwait and Iran...is ADD a problem with doves?
I don't want to sound too bitchy.
That's good, but keep working on it.
Do you think it matters that neither Iran nor Kuwait desired a U.S. invasion of Iraq? Is it relevent that weeks prior to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, the U.S. explicitely told Sadaam that we had no opinion on Iraq's border dispute with Kuwait? Is it relevent that we supported Iraq's aggression against Iran?
I think it is because I think that while there's a reasonable case for overthrowing Hussein (or any mass-murdering dictator), the people who supported him (and other terrorists) in the seventies and eighties, were not the people to do it.
Of course, I fully admit that if we were to wait for honest, competent people to be in charge of our government before we invaded, we might have had to wait forever.
Finally, don't you think it's reasonable to allow the Iraqi people to decide if they want our help any more?
Les, we had an opinion about Saddam's armed invasion of Kuwait...not his "border dispute" considered in the abstract! Where do you get this crap?
The elected government of Iraq can get us out any time they like. Perhaps they will...but I think that's about as likely as the Democratic caucus in the Senate voting for a time-table anytime soon, don'tcha think?
Wouldn't I just love to see the hearings where one veteran commander after another testifies that they don't think it's a good idea at all? Then watch that Dem caucus get whittled to half by 2008?
MEA CULPA
I misread joshua corning's comment. I thought he said "Shia dominated theocracy", when he actually said "Shia dominated democracy."
Now that I've learned how reading is fundamental, I realize how dumb my response to joshua was, and I apologize. He wasn't taking a bug and turning it into a feature.
Me kan reed reel gud!
Andrew-
I agree that getting the streets safe in 3 weeks is unreasonable, but we're getting closer to 3 years.
In any endeavor you have to ask for metrics for success and failure. Here are my questions for you, in regard to our continuing presence in Iraq:
1) What must happen so that we can declare success and withdraw?
2) In any endeavor, you must also ask whether your actions are actually making things worse rather than better. What would be a signal that our presence is making things less stable, and that our withdrawal would actually make things better? That was the notion that Murtha was getting at. Under what conditions would such an assessment be accurate?
It is no secret that canada became a democracy seperate from Briton becouse of its proximity to the US. (well that and the US would have takin it over if they hadn't)
So, the US army being chewed to pulp and Washington DC being burnt to the ground the last time you tried; was that a bug or a feature?
Well...
The Administration has given two triggers for a prompt withdrawl:
1.) A request by any legitimate Iraqi government...according to the administration, even the interim authorities in 2003-2004 could hqve made such a request, and we would have honored it - the current government may, if it wishes, ahead of the Dec elections.
2.) An assessment by field commanders that the security context merits a significant and rapid scale-down.
I don't believe either the elected authorites in Iraq, or are commanders in the field, are mere stooges for some Administration "cabal"...or that there is a "cabal" in the Administration that wishes to stay in Iraq a long time.
A third unvoiced but assumed trigger to leave would be an assessment that the situation was dteriorating into hopelessness.
Murtha does not appear to feel this way - he seems wildly optimistic that Iraq will be fine if we leave quickly...I disagree, but only to an extent. At some point we can begin to leave - probably well before 2005 is over - and I would guess that the bulk of American ground troops will be gone at some time during 2006. Announcing a timetable now gains little and carries a price.
I believe Murtha has a point that some politicians in Iraq would wish America to do all the fighting as long as there's fighting to be done...but if we withdraw to hastily some Shiia factions may simply hunker down for a civil war, and therby make it inevitable. Why get so anxious now?
Hey I have a lot to add to this, but I am going to bed now.
I just wanted to say; Jen, did you see that many women in Burkas during the purple finger event? I didn't and I was there.
I mean I saw women in Burkas but they are usually older and married, and if I had to guess, I would say that it was their choice.
Also, I don't mean to say that things are peachy. That is not the case. There are many corrupt politicians over there. And there are many tribes that have sexually repressive ways, and conduct honor killings. I met some of the tribesmen of said tribes and tried to talk sense into them about the error of their ways. I don't know if I made an impact.
I wouldn't say that Iraq is a failure, but I would say that it might not turn out too well. It could go a bad way.
Les, we had an opinion about Saddam's armed invasion of Kuwait...not his "border dispute" considered in the abstract!
Actually, we said that in reaction to Sadaam's threats to take the oil fields in Kuwait he believed to be Iraq's. Of course, he went beyond that with his invasion.
My larger point, however, was that the same people who dishonestly ("the tubes could only be used for nuclear purposes") and incompetently (claims Iraq would finance its own reconstruction; that we'd be greeted as liberators; that no more than 100,000 troops would be necessary for occupation; claims that conflicts between Sunni, Shia and Kurdish factions should not hinder the post-war peace and reconstruction; etc, etc, etc.) are the same people who supported terrorists in the 70's and 80's and who favored friendly relations with Sadaam after he used chemical weapons. And that these are not the people to be trusted to engineer a war.
And according to this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5431131,00.html
the elected Iraqi leaders, unable to agree on much else, agree that there should be a timetable for U.S. withdrawal.
"Is it relevent that we supported Iraq's aggression against Iran?"
I believe the term used by the good old US of A was "We have no dog in that fight"...but ya you keep the faith brother and make sure every shred of real history is forever hidden and your left wing crazy history is always front and center.
revisionist!
I believe the term used by the good old US of A was "We have no dog in that fight"...but ya you keep the faith brother and make sure every shred of real history is forever hidden and your left wing crazy history is always front and center.
I'm sure the U.S. government appreciates your knee-jerk trust. The "official" stance was that we were neutral, but to anyone who's done their homework and not a reflexive apologist for U.S. foreign policy it's clear that "official" policies of the U.S. in the eighties were quite frequently bullshit. (It was also "official" policy not to arm Iran, but remember that "neat idea" to sell weapons to Iran and funnel the money to terrorists in Nicaragua who were trying to topple a deeply flawed, but democratically elected government?)
Some documents detailing our support of Iraq in the 80's are here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
And why must someone be "left-wing" to not trust the U.S. state department? I'm certainly not. I'm against reflexive faith when it comes to government.
revisionist!
That's also what they call folks who point out that educated people already knew the world wasn't flat when Columbus set sail.
"It was also "official" policy not to arm Iran, but remember that "neat idea" to sell weapons to Iran and funnel the money to terrorists in Nicaragua who were trying to topple a deeply flawed, but democratically elected government?"
hmm so we sold arms to Iran and Iraq durring the iraq/iran war...seems nutral to me. Not something I like but nuetral non the less.
Of course this was durring the cold war and getting oil was our main consern. Opening relations with Iraq was not a defacto go from the US to the Iraq for invading Iran. Suddam was thier leader and we had to deal.
I am only correcting slanted opinions that it was the US who put Suddam in power armed him and then pushed him to invade Iran. Did we act as good characters in the region at the time insuring that our money and technology only went to the good guys? Hell no.
The Iran/Iraq war had everything to do with Suddam and little to do with the US.
hmm so we sold arms to Iran and Iraq durring the iraq/iran war...seems nutral to me. Not something I like but nuetral non the less.
Okay, we're not so far apart in general, but that means we supported Iraq during the war. I don't think it matters who else we supported. We supported Iraq after it used chemical weapons, after it gassed villages. That's really my point. And remember, the "official" stance was that we didn't support Iran or Iraq, yet we gave aid to both terrorist nations. Why should we trust the people who thought this was a good idea? Until they say it was wrong to aid terrorists during the cold war, why should we take seriously anything they say about fighting terrorism? I've always believed that, with American ingenuity and determination, we could win any war (hot or cold) and find energy supplies without resorting to helping terrorists and mass-murdering dictators.
The Iran/Iraq war had everything to do with Suddam and little to do with the US.
I don't disagree with you. My point was that the very same people who engineered this war (in a demonstrably dishonest and incompetent way) are the very same people who thought that giving aid to terrorists and terrorist states (in the Middle East and elsewhere) in the seventies and the eighties was good policy. I think supporting terrorism is a good reason to have your war-waging license revoked. But that's just me.
Believe me, the rhetoric on the left frustrates me, too, partly because so many of my friends and relatives engage in it (my wife checked out "The Motorcycle Diaries" from the library yesterday and my stomach is in knots as I try to think of a tactful and loving way to remind her that the hero was a mass-murdering thug).
Anyway, I wish you and everyone here a Happy Thanksgiving as I go attend to the bird roasting in my oven. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we bicker!
Ooh, bad time to be dissing the Balkans intervention. What with the agreement on Bosnia's presidency, Slobodan in a cell, ethnic cleansing being stopped in two different places, Al Qaeda operatives prevented from gaining a foothold among a European military, and all.
A key ingredient of liberal interventionism is modesty. It works just fine, as long as it doesn't reach too far.
Reading this thread, especially joshua's comments, I've had a realization:
Neocons like him - real, idealistic ones, not people like Cheney who use the lingo to put a nice spin on their imperialistic goals - don't believe in spreading democracy as a means to provide better lives for people. They want to raise the flag of their movement over countries as an end unto itself. Like the Soviets - they were willing to see people killed, jailed, tortured, and ground under the boot because they simply accepted their own beneficience, rather than actually needed to see it proven. Jennifer, it simply doesn't matter if life is objectively worse for people in Iraq. They are liberated* and that's all that matters. Who cares about bombs, acid in the face, death squads, torture prisons? They have purple fingers, his truth goes marching on. Someday, when the revolution is completed, everything will be wonderful.
It's the Soveits, the CPUSA, all over again, and it has nothing to do with liberalism.
Joe, I see what you're getting at. It's like the people who, in the name of protecting America, will destroy everything that makes America worth protecting. I think of America as an ideal first and foremost--the importance of the individual over the state, the idea that government serves the people and not vice-versa, the commitment to human rights--yet there are many who would gladly trash all of this and more, to ensure the military strength of AMERICA--the big hunk of land between Mexico and Canada. Idealism and principles be damned.
I would like these people to ask themselves a question (and don't bother giving me your answer; this question is for YOUR benefit). Given a choice, which would you prefer: an America that is exactly what you think it should be in terms of laws and human rights and how it treats its people, but it has no real military power (beyond the ability to defend its own self) and is of little importance on the world stage; or an America that is the mighty world hegemon, but little better than a dictatorship?
Me, I'd rather have a country weak but humane than a country strong and evil.
joe and Jennifer
Using any of the metrics that roughly measure whether life is fetting better in Iraq , or worse, it would appear to be getting better: Iraqis are not leaving Iraq, millions have returned along with hundreds of thousands of immigrants; the economy is expanding; foreign investment is tremendous. These are not the earmarks of a failing society.
There are lots of tensions and frictions in an open Iraq - conflicts repressed but not resolved by the previous police state. There are shortages, although this is largely a matter of fresh effective demand. There has definitely been an upswing in both ordinary and organised crime.
And there is insurgent violence - the principal complaint Iraqis voice about the current situation.
It turns my stomache to hear doffee-shop types honor the insurgency as a kind of understandable response to the presence of a foreign army.
First, because it usually comes from people who I cannot imagine would risk or sacrifice anything for the USA under any circumstances.
And secondly, because the kind of mindless nationalism that would scorch the earth to deny the motherland to an occupier does not remotely overlap my own conceptions of patriotism...and I am one who did serve in uniform.
I'd rather have a country weak but humane than a country strong and evil.
The first isn't really a secure option if the latter exists.
Eric, I was talking about an either-or, not being the humane country next to the evil one.
Andrew, even assuming that what you say is true in regards to Iraqi men, can you so blithely dismiss the fifty percent of the Iraqis who are female? THEY are worse off, their country is becoming more Islamic-fundie by the day, they're being forced to quit their jobs, they can't leave their houses without wearing a burka AND being escorted by a related male, they can't freely associate with their male friends (in my own case, this would mean losing every single friend I have), they're losing rights in regards to marriage, divorce, inheritance and child-custody. . . . the list goes on.
Yes, yes, I know some of the new Parliamentarians are women. Yes, some upper-class Iraqi women will live quite well. But I am talking about the rank-and-file ordinary women of Iraq.
Don't forget, they haven't yet installed the flying car system in Iraq, yet another sign of failure.
The evidence of failure in Iraq is based on the fantasy world created by defenders of the status quo who seem to believe that a successful war is one in which the enemy immediately runs away forever and ever so that the locals can begin their daily flower tossings at the troops. Complications or discomfort in any way is considered a failure
In the real, ugly, violent world Iraq isn't a failure by any reasonable measure.
We invaded Iraq for US national interests and the rest is gravy.
The most criminal element of the Balkan's war, on the US side, was waiting so long while hundreds of thousands died.
We invaded Iraq for US national interests and the rest is gravy.
We should judge Iraq a success or failure based on this criteria.
In what way, precisely, did the invasion of Iraq serve our national interests?
Of course. What other criteria would a country use?
This list of US national interests in this war has been provided time and again. Anybody that doesn't know them by now has probably ignored them. No need to restate it all again.
Tim Cavenaugh: No one will probably be reading this at this point, but I am amazed that no one has challenged Yglesias and Rosenfeld's argument that the competence (or lack thereof) in carrying out the Iraq war has nothing to do with America's "failure" in Iraq. I don't hear Afghanistan described as a "failure". Why is that? There is daily violence there, warlords, corruption, etc. Could it be because in Afghanistan we had uncontrovertible proof that the Taliban were a threat to Western Nations, by harboring Al Qaida, and we had (and continue to have) the active support (or at least acquiesence) of the rest of the world in dealing with it?
Why isn't the Bush administration's use of a false premise for going to war (even if done in good faith), together with diplomatic failure (alienating western Europe, failing to get Turkey on board), called what it is: INCOMPETENCE. Do Yglesias and Rosenfeld really believe Iraq would be viewed as a "failure" if we had found chemical and biological weapons in quantity, and proven pre-war links to Al Quaida, even if everything else had played out as it has? Do they believe that Iraq would be a failure if we did not find WMD, but had strong international support?
I refuse to buy the argument that one can't criticize the administration for the WAY they went to war. This "either you are for the war or against it" argument, is a lot of BS. We could have gotten international support for action which would have eventually lead to war if we hadn't had a bunch of gunslinging, obnoxious, holier than thou Texans running the show (I ought to know, I've lived in Texas).
Kwais, if you read this, I would be very interested in your take on this. I know a number of people in the military, and I know many of them have spent many years studying strategic doctrine. I can't believe anyone looking at this issue without ideological blinders on would think we went into this the right way.
JonBuck: I've been looking at Strategy Page for 4 years now, and I find it to be of very little value. Why? They cite no authority for anything they say. All you get is this smug "well, we know what's REALLY going on; don't you wish you did?" How can you possibly assign any credibility to them when they don't set forth the basis for their assertions? They may as well be a propaganda mouthpiece for the Pentagon. If you love hearsay, keep reading them.
If I am not mistaken, one of the fucked up things of the Balkans was that we prevented one side from aquiring weapons to defend themselves (the Bosnians) and thus allowed them to be massacred by the Serbs.
If we had allowed the one side to defend themselves, our intervention would not have been so necessary.
Am I wrong on that one?
Kwais: I assume you are referring to Srebernica (sp) where the UN probably wouldn't allow arms in, but then failed to defend the place themselves. I don't know what role, if any, the US played in that.
Ron,
How would you have done it different?
I have heard most the arguments about how most the people of the State Dept think it should have been run, and how some of the dissenting Generals think it should have been run. Some of the dissenting Generals had me on their side for a while, but now I dissagree with their differences.
The State Dept line, that we should have left the Iraqi police and military intact had me going for about 5 minutes, but now I think that also would have been a horrible idea.
I have thought long and hard about how I would have done things differently with the benefit of hindsight. (without it I probably would have made the mistake of leaving the police and military intact).
There are a couple of things that I can think of. One would have been to enter the initial war much more ruthlessly, to have decimated the Iraqi army and to have been much less conciensous of civilian casualties. If we had gone about the war that way, hard and evil to begin with, and then loosened up and been humane, that might have lessened the current headache.
The other idea would have been to do more of what we did in Afghanistan, and limit much more the use of conventional troops and instead used mainly SF teams. I don't really know if that would have worked though. And really the forces the SF teams would have been working with would be Kurds. That might have been a blood bath for the Sunni Arabs, and I really don't know how the Kurds (mostly sunni) would have reacted with the Shia Arabs, in a position of power.
So maybe we did the only right thing to do. It is hard to tell.
By the way, I believe that if we hadn't gone into Iraq, the war in Afghanistan would be a real failure. I mean no doubt about it failure. We might be resorting to nukes by now.
Kwais: I assume you are referring to Srebernica
Yeah, I don't really know. I just remember something about some congressional hearings about how we were preventing arms from being going into the former Yugoslavia. But because the Serbs had the bulk of the former Yugo army, and the russians were laughing at our arms embargo and actively arming the Serbs that the net effect was a complete one sided war. With one side having no qualms about genocide, and no natural reason to fear it.
Kwais: I would have spent more time getting international support for the attack, and I would have told Rumsfeld to shut up (during the runnup to war, he repeatedly undercut Tony Blair, our one major supporter); I would not have bet the farm that we would find WMD and argued that there were a lot of other good reasons for dealing more aggressively with the problem of Saddam. Would have taken longer, but we would have gotten there eventually.
Not getting Turkey on board was a massive screw-up. I don't buy this "well, the parliament was just unpredictable" bit. There have been fewer strategic allies as strong as Turkey, and they ended up making a decision against their own strategic interests! The only way that could possibly have happened is that we screwed up. Newt Gingrich has taken the same point of view.
As wars go, this one hasn't gone too badly, but the failure to find WMD, combined with p-oing the rest of the world, is a poison pill the military will never be able to overcome, no matter what they do. I am convinced the only reason more than half of the public thinks the war was a mistake is because we didn't find WMD. And whose fault is that? The administration was responsible for setting the expectations.
As for your comments, I'm not sure it would have made much difference whether we were more ruthless in the beginning or not. It is pretty obvious that Saddam had a pretty good "insurgency" contingency plan in place when we invaded. The scale and organization of the insurgency couldn't have happened without some planning and a lot of money.
Now, I'm wondering why you think we shouldn't have kept a lot of the Iraqi army on the payroll. Common sense tells you that if the other side has a lot of money to spend and you fail to buy off the fence-sitters, you're going to be in a world of hurt, particularly in that culture. I would bet dollars to donuts we are buying-off a lot of Sunni tribal leaders as we speak.
Kwais: I would be interested in hearing your theory why invading Iraq was necessary to success in Afghanistan.
The theory that Iraq was horrible for women pre-Saddam only holds if your comparison is to the West. Compared to the rest of the Arab world, it was a friggin' paradise for women. Part of Saddam's strategy to keep down Islamists was the promotion (at gunpoint!) of a rabidly secular gender equality.
That ain't so good compared to what we've got, but it beats the hell out of Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.
This list of US national interests in this war has been provided time and again. Anybody that doesn't know them by now has probably ignored them. No need to restate it all again.
Sorry, I guess I missed the memo. Judged by the standard of national interests, I consider Iraq a net minus for the USA. I was hoping you'd enlighten me; really, I haven't always known everything I know.
I hear a lot about the interests of Iraqis; it's refreshing to find someone who supports the invasion on the basis of American interests. So why don't you enlighten me? ...I won't ignore your wisdom.
M1EK--
On this thread we have already had one intellectually dishonest man insist that when I said "Thing have gotten worse for women in Iraq" I actually meant "In Saddam's day Iraq was a veritable paradise." In light of this, maybe you should avoid comments like "Compared to the rest of the Arab world Iraq was a friggin' paradise?" I mean, I am capable of understanding things like hyperbole and figurative language and such, but we've got some dishonest people here who would use that to misrepresent our opinions.
Today on NPR, This I Believe, with raconteur and owl-about-town, saw-whet.
W never argued in good faith and he had an agenda which he refuses to admit to.
Oh, this is supposed to be a 500 word essay? I'll get back to ya. Man, that Newt Gingrich made it look easy. Hmpf!
Oh Jennifer, I'm not an i9ntellectually dishonest man...I'm just note a one-note Johnny, like you. Before the war 60 -80% 0f Iraq was unemployed...do you really believe lots of Iraqi women had jobs to lose?
Ron
You have a point...but not really one pertinent to R and Y's hypothesis. The "incompetence" of going to war on faulty WMD data, and without Euro support is SHARED by the Liberal Intellectuals they describe in the article.
They ALL bought the same WMD arguments the administration did, on mostly the same data. They ALL suppoted the war in April 2003 knowing Europe wasn't on board. This doesn't distinguish them from the Administration. The Liberal Interventionist critique of the Admin focusses on other things...looting and electricity and such - and R and Y are right to dismiss it as fluff.
Andrew, when I said "thing have gotten worse for women" you interpreted that as "Iraq used to be a paradise." If you don't call this intellectual dishonesty, then what do you call it--poor reading comprehension?
I notice you avoided my comments about women now being confined to their homes, forbidden to associate with males who aren't their relatives, forced to wear burkas and so forth.
Oh Jennifer, get over it!
Wanna supply some links? I don't think you're intellectually dishonest...I don't think you're intellectual, at all. A lightweight.
Andrew, when you've been reduced to saying things like "I think you're an intellectual lightweight, nyaah nyaah nyaah," perhaps you should just admit that you are not capable of honest debate. At least not on this topic.
I believe ther are some areas in Iraq that have been just as bad as anything jennifer contends, and worse. The areas controlled by insurgents, for example. And the areas controlled by Shiite militias.
Everyone who wants to cut and run, and partition Iraq between different flavors of fundies, tell me how you think that will work out for womwn.
jennifer, what do you figure happens when we leave? Saddam rides a white horse back to Baghdad, and restores womwn's rights?
jennifer, what do you figure happens when we leave? Saddam rides a white horse back to Baghdad, and restores womwn's rights?
Of course, Mr. Paragon of Intellectual Honesty. That's exactly what I think will happen.
"They ALL bought the same WMD arguments the administration did, on mostly the same data."
This is an outright lie. See the stuff Bob Graham complained about:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/18/AR2005111802397.html
It's highly doubtful that any of those folks you mentioned (liberal intellectuals) had access to the data that even Graham's senate committee had, much less the administration's stuff.
So why's it gotta be US long-term occupation or bring back Saddam. Looks like someone is excluding his middle!
I think long-term occupation is a bad idea but that was the Administration's goal. And anyone who gets all blather spittle about it is not being intellectually honest. For god's sake, no one (and by that I mean your average US citizen) gave a damn about this guy in the 80s when the Saracen were eating themselves. Is this just about identity politics?
Joe,
"Neocons like him - real, idealistic ones, not people like Cheney who use the lingo to put a nice spin on their imperialistic goals - don't believe in spreading democracy as a means to provide better lives for people. They want to raise the flag of their movement over countries as an end unto itself. Like the Soviets - they were willing to see people killed, jailed, tortured, and ground under the boot because they simply accepted their own beneficience, rather than actually needed to see it proven."
there is a limit Joe and recognizing that war is sometimes nessesary to secure liberty does not make me a murderer...of course you also recoganize this or you would not be claiming victory in the balkins if you did not.
Andrew,
If two people are having a disagreement about who was worse, Hitler or Stalin, and the person who thinks Hitler was worse accuses the other person of saying that Hitler was a great leader, is that, in your opinion, a constructive, honest way to argue a disagreement?
"...honest way to argue a point" I should have said. I'm still full from last night.
jennifer, what do you figure happens when we leave? Saddam rides a white horse back to Baghdad, and restores womwn's rights?
As saw-whet said, it is very difficult to argue with you if you keep excluding the middle and accusing us of holding opinions that we don't hold. It's obvious that you feel strongly about the project in Iraq, and have little use for those who can't see the importance of this project. But if you aren't willing to consider the possibility that those who disagree are nonetheless honest and realistic people, what is the point of discussion?
"This is an outright lie. See the stuff Bob Graham complained about:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/18/AR2005111802397.html
It's highly doubtful that any of those folks you mentioned (liberal intellectuals) had access to the data that even Graham's senate committee had, much less the administration's stuff."
read your article from the post and it seems that Mr Graham simply did not read the intellegence...claiming ignorance through incompatance hardly seems like a worthy argument.
Anyway clinton in 1998 came to the same conclusions that the Bush admin did and he had the same intellegance...oh ya and Blair did also and he had independant intelligance.
Do we have to go through this over and over again, or are you going to keep up the false indegnation and continue to call people liers?
"As saw-whet said, it is very difficult to argue with you if you keep excluding the middle and accusing us of holding opinions that we don't hold. It's obvious that you feel strongly about the project in Iraq, and have little use for those who can't see the importance of this project. But if you aren't willing to consider the possibility that those who disagree are nonetheless honest and realistic people, what is the point of discussion?"
I think his point is that jenifers solution of pulling out would actually be worse for women then staying. She has not put forth a logical solution.
Complaining about incompetance and unintended consiquinces after the fact is great for election debates but what do we do NOW to remedy those mistakes?
By not taking the possision that we should be doing more for Iraqi women rather then pulling out and calling it quits seems to make her argument disingenious...does she really care about Iraqi women or does she just want Bush to be proved wrong?
I think his point is that jenifers solution of pulling out would actually be worse for women then staying. She has not put forth a logical solution.
I'm not offering any solutions; I merely pointed out that life has become worse for Iraqi women since we invaded.
Seriously, guys: why are you incapable of being honest about what was said by those who disagree with you? It's like "debating" affirmative action by saying "Everyone who disagrees with me is a racist." Or "debating" abortion by saying "pro-choicers just want to murder babies and pro-lifers just want to oppress women."
Seriously, guys, what the hell is your PROBLEM? Even you, Josh--despite your consistently abysmal spelling you don't strike me as a stupid man.
I think his point is that jenifers solution of pulling out would actually be worse for women then staying. She has not put forth a logical solution.
Fine. Then he should say that instead of accusing Jennifer of thinking that Saddam-era Iraq was a paradise for women. She never said that. Her opinion merely seems to be that things have gone from really bad to even worse for most Iraqi women.
I'm certainly not of the opinion that our withdrawal would make things much better for Iraqi women, but I don't know that our withdrawal would make things all that much worse for them either.
And I do think it's worth harping on the past: If mistakes have been made, then those mistakes need to be recognized rather than dismissed, so that the lessons are not forgotten the next time around.
millions have returned along with hundreds of thousands of immigrants
Have to ask for a cite. The CIA factbook doesn't reflect these positive influx numbers.
the economy is expanding
As well it should. When it starts off from a low base, I'd be frightened if it didn't show rapid upward movement.
foreign investment is tremendous
I'd have to see this statement fleshed out. There is some investment in the north, like Norway's oil deal, but the returns won't show up for 5-10 years. Perhaps you have something else in mind.
But rather than focus on details, I'd prefer a discussion on the larger picture. If we're looking to change the status quo, how can we be sure we'll achieve our goals with the current situation?
An oil state, let alone federalism, doesn't have a good track record recently as far as nascent democracies go. What are the signs that point out Iraq isn't headed for a rentier economy? Does oil help or hinder federalism?
P.S.- I'm not an advocate of cut and run, and I don't drink coffee 🙂
"I'm not offering any solutions; I merely pointed out that life has become worse for Iraqi women since we invaded."
If that is all you are saying then I apologize. I made assumptions I should not have.
does she really care about Iraqi women or does she just want Bush to be proved wrong?
I'm also wondering why you guys seem to think that there's no way anyone could legitimately disagree with what's going on these days--no, no, we just hate Bush, is all. Let me guess--you think that if everything were exactly the same except that Gore or Kerry were President, I'd think everything in Iraq was just peachy, huh?
"I'm also wondering why you guys seem to think that there's no way anyone could legitimately disagree with what's going on these days--no, no, we just hate Bush, is all."
Maybe it's because you, and those like you, tend to assign the worst possible motives to everything the administration does? Not to mention taking a relentlessly negative attitude toward anything that the adminstration might have accomplished, regardless of evidence that might conflict with your views. And you actually wonder why people might think you are blinded by Bush-hatred?
I am constantly amazed that people who pretend to be concerned about human rights aren't overjoyed that Saddam was removed from power, even if they wish that it hadn't taken a war to do it. Minimizing the human rights disaster that was Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and making ridiculous statements about how things are worse now is no way to be taken seriously.
It might come as a shock to you, but even many people who support the war disagree with aspects of how it is being run, and think that the administration has screwed up a variety of things.
But disagreement and criticism is not the same thing as demonizing the administration and every action of the U.S.
"read your article from the post and it seems that Mr Graham simply did not read the intellegence."
Is your internet in an alternate universe or something? Graham's contention is that the intelligence _he_ saw wasn't _allowed_ to be shown to most of the Senate.
"Anyway clinton in 1998 came to the same conclusions that the Bush admin did and he had the same intellegance."
Clinton came to the conclusion that we ought to be worried enough to keep sanctioning and bombing Saddam. This is quite different from thinking that we needed to invade, NOW. And stating "we know he has them; we know where they are" was a lie, plain and simple. We didn't "know" he had them; and we certainly and obviously didn't "know" where they were.
But you knew that, didn't you? Which brings us to...
"Do we have to go through this over and over again, or are you going to keep up the false indegnation"
My 'indegnation' [sic] would be the same if it had been Gore dragging us to war with lies. I'd be hoping that HE, not W, would be smoking a big fat turd in hell right next to LBJ, who, in case you forgot, was also a Democrat, and also lied to drag us to war.
"and continue to call people liers?"
No, I think I'll stick with "moron" for you. Thanks.
"Minimizing the human rights disaster that was Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and making ridiculous statements about how things are worse now is no way to be taken seriously."
The idea that things might be worse now for women in Iraq is not ridiculous. If you can't even treat it as worth discussion, you're the one who can't be taken seriously.
Maybe it's because you, and those like you, tend to assign the worst possible motives to everything the administration does?
Yes, it is only my natural cynicism that makes me assume bad motives on the part of those who, among other things, tell lies to start a war, gut the Geneva Conventions and fight for our right to torture people.
making ridiculous statements about how things are worse now is no way to be taken seriously.
For women, things are indeed worse.
Also, David C., when did I "minimize the human-rights disaster that was Saddam's Iraq?" Andrew's claims to the contrary, I've never said Saddam's Iraq was a nice country to be in; I only said that from a woman's perspective, it wasn't as bad as it is now.
Which makes me reprise my earlier question: what IS it about you people, that you're incapable of debating your opponents without resorting to strawmen, excluded middles, out-and-out misrepresentations, and so on?
It's always funny when people come to a libertarian forum and complain that some of the posters assign the worst possible motives to public officials.
What other motives are we supposed to assign to them, pray tell?
Here is a brilliant article on the subject
(based very much on Libertarian priciples).
http://www.republicansforhumility.com/
That was a brilliant article, Terry.
thoreau
If you can never call a government good, then you're a monkey!
And if that is what libertarians contend, then I would feel uncomfortable calling myself one.
I believe it is possible to call a government good with about the same assurance that one may call a man good, or decent, or half-decent...with a host of unspoken caveats about the ubiquity of human limitation and failure.
The government Iraq has now is - I would say - half-decent, and well on the way to rather decent. At least as good as Jordan...and if every Arab state was as cool as Jordan I doubt we would perceive a problen in that part of the world.
Of course, every thing you see is as messy as human life is - particularly human life in perhaps the most benighted region, politically, in the world.
I will add, the US is GOOD...under any president, any party. Incomparable in human experience.
I will add, the US is GOOD...under any president, any party. Incomparable in human experience.
For now.
Now is all that matters.
Ken said:
I hear a lot about the interests of Iraqis; it's refreshing to find someone who supports the invasion on the basis of American interests. So why don't you enlighten me? ...I won't ignore your wisdom.
Well Ken, while you wait for my pearls of wisdom, thank you by the way for your sincere request, I'll have to disappoint you. Evidently you have not developed the skills necessary to listen to or read or remember the list of American interests that were served by the Iraq invasion as stated in multiple public forums by various public and private speakers. Therefore it would be a waste of my valuable, and yes, precious time to provide the enlightenment you so kindly requested.
As I?m sure you understand, I have too preserve my energy so that I can absorb other public statements being made, my knowledge of which will serve to impress others in the future.
Jennifer,
"Which makes me reprise my earlier question: what IS it about you people, that you're incapable of debating your opponents without resorting to strawmen, excluded middles, out-and-out misrepresentations, and so on?"
You are joking right? I see you doing this constantly.
" I've never said Saddam's Iraq was a nice country to be in; I only said that from a woman's perspective, it wasn't as bad as it is now."
From what woman's perspective, yours? Are you an Iraqi woman living in Iraq? You appear to be confusing your opinion with a fact.
And yes, carrying on about how women are now worse off in Iraq than under Saddam counts as minimizing Saddam's atrocities. Some black women in America were probably better off as slaves, than as newly freed people, given the conditions of life in the reconstruction-era South. If we were talking about the effects of the Civil War and that was one of my main arguments for why the war was bad, would you be telling me I wasn't minimizing the horrors of slavery?
Thoreau,
I'm well aware of how libertarians feel about government as I hold many libertarian positions myself. But being naturally suspicious of government isn't the same thing as automatically assuming that it operates based on the worst possible motives. It can be well-intentioned and produce bad results. It can be incompetent. There can be good people who believe they are doing what is best for the country, even if they might be mistaken. I wasn't aware that assuming that government administrations were staffed by evil people with evil motives was a requirement for being a libertarian.
M1EK,
"The idea that things might be worse now for women in Iraq is not ridiculous. If you can't even treat it as worth discussion, you're the one who can't be taken seriously."
The key word there is "might." I'll accept that some Iraqi women might be worse off now. But making blanket assertions about Iraqi women and passing them off as fact is indeed ridiculous.
Ron,
Let me see if I can address all the points you bring up:
-Waiting for international support.
I don't think that is a good idea. I am not a big fan of the whole "international" thing. I think we are allies with those who are really our allies. I think the French and the Germans had a little under handed thing going on with Saddam. And they would never have gone along with doing the right thing.
-Not betting the farm on WMD's.
I agree with you. I suspect that the administration believed that Saddam had WMD's but I don't think that was the reason for the war. Nor do I think that should have been the reason for the war. I actually don't think that another country devoloping WMD's is a valid reason for war.
Not getting Turkey on board.
I don't really know much about that. But Turkey has to be at least part in the wrong in that they fear an independant Kurdistan will give hope to their own repressed Kurds. Maybe we did do wrong negotiating with them. They surely have done wrong themselves.
P oing the rest of the world.
Fuck the rest of the world. The rest of the world that everyone talks about is the leftist, statist Europe and coffee shop intelectuals. They were upset with Reagan for everything that was right with Reagan. If we ever had the great libertarian hope win the white house they and all the press would be spreading the bad word about him too.
More about the argument for being ruthless.
Most the ones causing problems in organized crime and with terrorism are former police and former Baath party military. If we had killed more the argument goes is that we'd have less to deal with. There would be a lot less males to repress Jennifer's oppressed womenfolk. And the population would be more war weary and fearfull of our firepower. The running theory that the Germans didn't cause so much problems post WW2, even though they are a much more bellic people, is that they were much more war weary, and that then we had less morals about killing people than we do now.
"Using any of the metrics that roughly measure whether life is fetting better in Iraq , or worse, it would appear to be getting better"
Well, except for the "are people being killed by the dozens every day in terror attacks?" metric, everything is freaking peachy. World Trade Center levels of terror murders every couple of months. Great success you've got there.
And frankly, Andrew, I don't give a shit what your prejudice tells you about what I would do to defend my country. You've already proven that you're delusional.
"there is a limit Joe..."
Of course, joshua. And, first off, I don't consider you a murderer. I consider you a poor student of foreign affairs.
But as to limits: the obvious disaster that has ensued from this mission cannot be explained away with shiny, happy stories about painted schools. The only defense is the purple finger argument - sure, they're country is being destroyed by terror, civil war, secret police, and ongoing military operations. Sure oil production, electrical service, and crime are all much worse than before the war. But hey, how about those purpose fingers?
The retreat into ideology and the promise of a golden dawn just around the corner, in the face of some pretty horrible facts on the ground, is the hallmark of every failed revolution.
joshua, "Anyway clinton in 1998 came to the same conclusions that the Bush admin did and he had the same intellegance"
In 1998 Iraq did have WMDs and the capability to make more. In 2003, they did not. If George Bush invades Germany next week to "preempt" a fascist dictator from taking over the country, are you going to write "Franklin Roosevelt believed the same thing in 1939" when he's proven wrong?
David C., I'm quite happy that the Saddam regime was toppled. I'm stunned and outraged that you people managed to make Iraq a more violent, more dangerous, more threatening place than it was under Saddam. And don't give me any of your painted schools and dyed fingers bullshit, or I'll start putting up links of kids with their skin melted off by white phosphorous shells.
Ken, since bb doesn't care to list the American interests this war was fought over, allow me:
Protecting our country from WMD attacks;
Preventing international jihadi terrorists from operating in Iraq;
Removing our military from a location that inspired resentment among Muslims;
Freeing up military forces that were tied down enforcing the blockade;
Creating an Iraqi political sphere that would serve as an inspiration to countries throughout the region, causing their populations to look favorably upon democratic liberation efforts.
We seem to be looking at four Fs and a N/A.
joe, it's obvious that you're just saying these things because you don't trust our government.
What do you think this is, some sort of libertarian forum?
BTW, it's ridiculous to suggest that our government lied about WMD. Not only did George Bush think Iraq had WMD, so did Bill Clinton and Jacques Chirac.
If you can't trust those guys, whom can you trust? I mean, really!
This is something I tried to post earlier, but got a strange message saying that my comment is being held for review, since "This is my first time commenting." What the hell? I'm not using a new computer or IP or anything. Jeff suggested it was because I had Web addresses (not active links) in it. So I am going to cut out the three Web addresses I had for these quotes, and see if that works.
Here are some excerpts from articles discussing the current situation of Iraqi women. The first is from the Christian Science Monitor:
In the nearly two years since the regime of Saddam Hussein fell, pressure has grown for women to conform to stricter Islamic standards. "The Baath Party, with all the things many believe they did wrong, [still ensured that Iraqi] women had the most rights in the region," says Rime Allaf, an associate fellow with the Royal Institute of International Affairs in London, where she is researching women's status in Iraq. "Now, a lot of women are being very careful about how they dress. They are being told by perfect strangers, 'You need to cover your hair ... [and] your arms.' " . . . .
Umm Sermat, who also would not give her full name, thinks Islamic law is a good idea but wants the protections she had under Mr. Hussein's secular regime. "The law [then] was with the women 100 percent," she says. A man "had to get his wife's permission to take a second wife. They should share the [assets] if the wife is separated. In a divorce, they have to prepare a furnished house for her.... We don't want a sharia constitution like the Iranian model.
From Jihad Watch
Violence against women and Christians and threats of forced islamisation are growing in Mosul. At the beginning of Ramadan, a flyer started appearing at Mosul University promising 'death to all Iraqi women who did not cover their heads'. It was signed by a shadowy group calling itself the Mujahideen Parliament representing six armed groups: 'Monotheism and martyrs', the 'Army of Sunnah members', 'Mujahideen Squads', the 'Islamic army', the 'Secret Islamic army' and the 'Sunnah members group'. It warned women against wearing make-up and Western-style clothes. "We will follow transgressors to their homes," it said, "and shall not hesitate from striking you."
A few days ago, two young women were attacked for not wearing a head cover in a Mosul market. A syringe containing nitric acid--a corrosive liquid inorganic acid--was sprayed onto their faces.
Madre.org
The administration's decision to trade women's rights for support from religious conservatives has left Iraqi women worse off today under U.S. occupation then they were under the notoriously repressive regime of Saddam Hussein. The Ba'ath Party utilized women's rights only to consolidate its own power. Yet, for all its brutality, Saddam Hussein's government guaranteed women's rights to education, employment, freedom of movement, equal pay for equal work and universal day care, as well as the rights to inherit and own property, choose their own husbands, vote and hold public office. Ironically, these fundamental rights stand to be abolished in an Iraq "liberated" by the United States in the name of (among other things) promoting democracy.
Good, my last post went through. I had to take out the Web addresses, unfortunately, which will make it much easier for certain commenters to insist that I made it all up or something. C'est la vie.
Dear Reason,
Could you please try another "liberal hawks" thread, and maybe warm people off of turning it into another Iraq War debate thread?
Fletch and dead elvis tried to stay on topic, and I had an on-topic response much later, but this one fell into the hole almost immediately and never emerged.
Thanks a lot, JENNIFER!!! 😉
"David C., I'm quite happy that the Saddam regime was toppled. I'm stunned and outraged that you people managed to make Iraq a more violent, more dangerous, more threatening place than it was under Saddam. And don't give me any of your painted schools and dyed fingers bullshit, or I'll start putting up links of kids with their skin melted off by white phosphorous shells."
Well Joe, since I'm not part of the administration, I didn't do any such thing. And I disagree with your assessment of Iraq being more dangerous and more threating now.
And if you think elections and various other improvements are bullshit that's your right. Just as it is my right to consider your assessment bullshit. As for kids and white phosphorous -- I'm not impressed. Civilians die in war. War is ugly and brutal, especially guerilla wars in which the enemy hides amongst the civilian population. Civilians, including kids, will die, and it doesn't particularly matter which weapon happens to kill them.
Jennifer,
Sorry, but I don't consider the opinion of various anti-war activists any sort of demonstration of fact. What you are expressing is an opinion supported by others that share your view of the war. Somehow that isn't all that convincing. Were the women that went thru the rape rooms, the Kurdish women and the women in the Shiite areas better off under Saddam? I suspect their opinions might differ from yours -- the ones that are still alive to express an opinion. Again, that some women in Iraq might now be worse off is probably true. But that's a far cry from making a sweeping statement about women in Iraq as a whole and trying to pass it off as established fact.
And please, quoting Saddam's laws as guaranteeing anything for anyone is pretty funny. Dictatorial regimes always abide by their own laws, right? Do you believe Saddam's repeated elections to the presidency were evidence of democracy in pre-war Iraq too?
I will add, the US is GOOD...under any president, any party. Incomparable in human experience.
Was the U.S. good when slavery was legal? When it broke treaty after treaty with the aboriginals and forcefully relocated them? Was it good when it was illegal to publically speak out against U.S. involvement in WWI? Was it good when it refused to act against lynchings in the south? Was it good when it secretly bombed undefended villages in Southeast Asia, killing tens of thousands of unarmed civilians? Was it good when it helped to overthrow democratically elected governments and supported murderous totalitarian regimes and terrorists during the Cold War? Is it good now as it imprisons people for taking politically incorrect drugs?
The U.S. Constitution is good, the best part of the U.S.. It makes the U.S. improve. It makes the U.S. my favorite country and the place where I most want to live. But to suggest that the U.S. is good "under any president, any party" is just base, loyalist nationalism.
Joe
Who is being delusional? I didn't even know you were on this thread when I posted...did YOUR name come up? I spoke of a certain kind of coffee-shop dimbulb - are you the shop steward for those guys?
Jennifer - thanks for some posts. I believe they are a little impressionistic and anecdotal...but I'm not complaining - that's the best you can do sometimes.
I am sure that all kinds of creeps crawl out from under the rocks when repressive societies open up, but on any level I believe it is a mistake to parley with hostage-takers. I don't think your concerns are misplaced...and you may take this as an apology.
Thoreau
I can believe Clinton threw pins at a map of Iraq, and said to the Pentagon "Bomb 'em! We'll say we just destroyed some WMD sites!"
I CAN'T believe Rumsfeld and Cheney sat around and said "We'll tell the world there's WMD in Iraq, over-run the country, then play off the failure to find it as an honest mistake."
What makes sense to you?
Les
Do we have to reprise the entire Chomskyite canon?
I'm glad we took the Indians land, and I think we dealt with them about as humanely as circumstances permitted.
Slavery was an abomination present in every New World society remotely suited for it...and abolished by the American Republic.
I would rather have been a war critic in America, than Imperial Germany or Tsarist Russia.
The American constitution was not a meteriorite, ar a special intervention by God...nor was it dreamed up by the Lakota. It was an understandable product of a Europen - and then specifically English - tradition...an end product of commercial civilization.
Andrew,
Do we have to reprise the entire Chomskyite canon?
Funny thing is that history exists outside of anything whatsoever to do with Noam Chomsky.
I'm glad we took the Indians land, and I think we dealt with them about as humanely as circumstances permitted.
Wow. I'm not sure how to respond to this. How did "circumstances" make forced relocation, mass murder, and chronic deceit "humane?" Please explain.
Slavery was an abomination present in every New World society remotely suited for it...and abolished by the American Republic.
That evades the point. You said the U.S. was "good" under all presidents. I asked if it was good when slavery was legal. You call slavery an "abomination." So I guess you're admitting, in your own way, that the U.S. wasn't good when slavery was practiced here. You can wag your finger at other nations and squeal, "but THEY were doing it, too!" It doesn't really have anything to do with your assertion that the U.S. is always good.
I would rather have been a war critic in America, than Imperial Germany or Tsarist Russia.
And I'd rather be raped by Angelina Jolie than Hulk Hogan. Try to muster the courage to admit that it wasn't "good" to limit political criticism during wartime with threat of imprisonment. It's easy to point your finger at someone worse. So very easy. It's difficult to admit that a country we love could act so terribly at times. The inability to do so and to suggest that our (or any) country is "always good" is to admit to a type of intellectual cowardice.
"It's always funny when people come to a libertarian forum and complain that some of the posters assign the worst possible motives to public officials.
What other motives are we supposed to assign to them, pray tell?"
resonable good hearted ones....that through the use of big government and thier own incompatance more often then not end up creating a giant pile of shit.
🙂
hey and I got a libertarian solution for jenifer...give all the women of Iraq a nine millimeter pistol..with a pink handle and the words "for women only" written in arabic on it. and preferably paid for and givin out by an NGO with training in its use. 🙂
give all the women of Iraq a nine millimeter pistol..with a pink handle and the words "for women only" written in arabic on it.
Finally, Josh says something I can agree with. Only don't make the guns pink. I hate the color pink.
Oh Les
You are a very dull and predictable kid(you wouldn't be Gary Gunnels by any chance?).
I could have (did) recite that entire catechism, likely decades before you were born. It is Stacdard Sophomore, and you probably got most of it from your teachers...in my day we had to acquire it ourselves (you pass with a B for leaving out Japanese Interment and the Zoot Suit riots.)
"sure, they're country is being destroyed by terror, civil war, secret police, and ongoing military operations."
wow all that sounds like post revolutionary US, post civil war US, and post ww2 europe.
oh yeah and post US bombings in the Balkins.
"Finally, Josh says something I can agree with. Only don't make the guns pink. I hate the color pink."
yeah the intent of the pink was to use Muslim/arab masoganoy against itself...ie the husband or brother or father would not take it away from the woman and use it for themsleves on the grounds that the gun is too feminine.
I have no idea if Iraqi's have the same stereotypes with the color pink that we do.
Andrew, why do you assume that people who are critical of America must be victims of indoctrination by college professors? IIRC, at one time you accused me of the same.
For the record, other than physics classes, I took 7 econ classes (where I got a very non-lefty perspective, for the most part), a Shakespeare class as a summer student in England (no PC crap in that class), a rather dull humanities class on the Holocaust (the prof spent most of his time just trying to get people to actually do the reading, which left rather little time for indoctrination), and two classes on "great books" where we were supposed to "expand our perspectives" (i.e. PC crap, where I tuned out after the prof. called me a "positivist" as though it were an insult).
So, tell me, when did the indoctrination take hold? How did they slip past my guard and fill my brain with lies?
I could totally support a policy of arming Arab women.
Hell, in Iran I'd go even further and give a gun to anybody who isn't a cleric.
Let them sort out the rest.
the intent of the pink was to use Muslim/arab masoganoy against itself...ie the husband or brother or father would not take it away from the woman and use it for themsleves on the grounds that the gun is too feminine.
No, to make Arab male sex idiocy work against itself, make the handle of the gun in the shape of a penis.
Hell, make it a circumsized one, so we can use their anti-Semitism as well.
the prof. called me a "positivist" as though it were an insult
What in the world was he talking about, Thoreau? Criticizing you for being an optimist, or was it one of the other definitions of positivism which I just found on Wikipedia?
my bet is with this one
"A highly complex political theory which stems from the Enlightenment legacy. It refers to objective ways of knowing, that a process needs to be rational and scientific. It seeks to separate the subject from the values we apply to it, and argues that it is possible to develop value-free knowledge. An opposing tradtition is that of Post-Positivism, which holds that knowledge cannot be value-free or neutral, and that our world is entrenched in meaning and history."
"Say what you will about the reasons for that, but don't try to say that the "net consumer" thing is A Good Thing. It isn't."
In warfare sustainded demonstration of the ability to inflict more damage to the enemey then is recived is generally acepted as a good tactic.
this is all hypothetical of course becouse we are not actually at war or anything.
No, to make Arab male sex idiocy work against itself, make the handle of the gun in the shape of a penis.
Hell, make it a circumsized one, so we can use their anti-Semitism as well.
Jen, I don't know that Iraqi men, or Arabs in general would have any problem holding another man's penis. They are a lot more comfortable with the whole homosexual thing than we are.
Also, circumcision is Islamic as well as Jewish. And if you try to go with an antisemitism thing you would have an equal time getting women to hold the gun. Anti-jew, is not only a male thing.
I don't know that pink would work either. I think that may be a wester construct.
But I am all about giving women guns to defend themselves.
Actually when I read about the acid in the face thing it enrages me, to the point that I question the no torture rule, and think that to get some of these people rat their buddies out wouldn't be a bad thing.
But I guess that eventually their society, if it is a free and democratic one will sort itself out.
Joshua-
It was a "great books class" in my first semester of freshman year. The prof said something about zoos and how they represent some bad things about our culture. So, as a naive young science major, I say that a lot of zoos conduct research with the goal of preserving endangered species, which would suggest that zoos hardly take an imperialist view of animals.
He says "My, my, we have a positivist in the room!" Then something like "Oh, it's really quite nice how you view the world, like we can just take things apart and see how they work." I didn't know what a positivist was (after class I looked it up in a dictionary and decided that it wasn't such a bad thing) but the way he said it I thought it was some kind of insult.
And after looking it up in the dictionary I went to my research lab and worked on the designs for a device that would examine things and see how they work. Even before that incident I'd already figured out that figuring things out in the research lab was more educational (and fun!) than taking classes on what other people had figured out, and the prof dissing my scientific attitude only reaffirmed that.
On the subject of Congress having access to intelligence, I found an interesting passage in the Washington Post.
American voters elected lazy, incompetent representatives. Democracy is awesome.
"Civilians die in war. War is ugly and brutal, especially guerilla wars in which the enemy hides amongst the civilian population. Civilians, including kids, will die, and it doesn't particularly matter which weapon happens to kill them."
You tell 'em, Saddam! Damn Kurdish rebels...
Oooh, today's BBC has a fun article in which Allawi says abuses committed by the current Iraqi government are "as bad as in the Saddam era." But that's okay, right, guys? All that matters is that Saddam is gone. Being tortured is okay, so long as the orders come from a guy who is not surnamed "Hussein."
And thus vanishes the last pathetic rationalization for out going over there. No WMDs, no responsibility for 9-11, no freeing Iraqis from a murderous, torturous government. . . but we saw those photos of the purple fingers! What more do we need?
Let's see if Reason's obsessively paranoid anti-spam software will let me put the address here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4475030.stm
Quoth Mr. Allawi:
"People are doing the same as (in) Saddam Hussein's time and worse," Mr Allawi told the newspaper. "It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam Hussein, and now we are seeing the same things."
Remember why we went to war: so Iraqis could enjoy the freedom of being tortured by someone other than Saddam Hussein.
joshua,
"In warfare sustainded demonstration of the ability to inflict more damage to the enemey then is recived is generally acepted as a good tactic."
Since most of those being killed by terrorists are Iraqi civilians, I have to ask: are you defining Iraqi civilians as enemies, or are you giving up on your contention that the status of Iraq as an importer of terrorism means we are winning?
Andrew,
It's telling that your only response is to accuse me of being a college student. I wish I was. You know, you've said things the Klan would agree with, but I'm not accusing you of being in the Klan.
Considering that you've been so unwilling and/or unable to rationally engage people here, I think it's time to agree to disagree.
Kwais: I agree we shouldn't necessarily have waited forever for France, Germany, and Russia to join the invasion bandwagon, but the Bush administration never really made the case that should have been made, so we'll never know. Turkey probably voted no because they were intimidated by France, who likely told them they could kiss their chances of getting into the EU goodbye forever if they supported the invasion.
Turkey probably voted no because they were intimidated by France, who likely told them they could kiss their chances of getting into the EU goodbye forever if they supported the invasion.
Or because the Turks were afraid that an invasion might lead to an independent Kurdish nation right next door.
"Or because the Turks were afraid that an invasion might lead to an independent Kurdish nation right next door."
or both
Jennifer: Turkey knew the invasion was going to happen with or without them. If Turkey had joined in, they could have put their own army in Kurdistan and made sure there was no independent nation. At the very least, they would have had a much greater say about what happened there. They also passed up on a few billion $ in "aid" from the US. Totally dumb on their part. Or, they are incredibly altruistic.
Joe
"Since most of those being killed by terrorists are Iraqi civilians, I have to ask: are you defining Iraqi civilians as enemies, or are you giving up on your contention that the status of Iraq as an importer of terrorism means we are winning?"
This is great sort of like how the left critisis the right for being against abortions but being for the death penalty....isn't the inverse just as bad if not worse...ie being for abortions but being against the death penalty?
Anyway I do not think that the US military views Iraqi civilians as the enemy but to point out that the enemy views them as legitimate targets is telling.
Turkey knew the invasion was going to happen with or without them.
I don't know if that is true or not. WAS it that obvious to the rest of the world, that the invasion was a foregone conclusion regardless of what the UN inspectors determined?
Another possibility occurs to me: could be as simple as thinking it would make them look bad in the eyes of their fellow Muslims, aligning with us to invade a fellow Muslim country.
They also passed up on a few billion $ in "aid" from the US. Totally dumb on their part. Or, they are incredibly altruistic.
Ron-
Putting aside what I or others might have felt about the invasion, I totally understand why foreign leaders opposed it. Let's say, at least for the sake of argument, that it was totally the right thing to do and in the long run the world will be a better place as a result. In the short term there will still be costs in blood, treasure, domestic politics (in most countries), and possibly terrorist blowback (yes, I know, blowback is not sufficient reason to refrain from doing what's necessary, but it is still a possible repercussion to keep in mind).
If you know that the US is going to do this with or without your help, and that in the long run everybody will reap the benefits of a freer, more prosperous, less violent Middle East, why not just reap those long term costs but avoid the short term costs?
In that sense, you could think of Iraq as a public goods problem: As soon as somebody does it, everybody benefits, so there's no incentive for anybody else to share in the costs.
(And yes, I know, some will say that Iraq is not a public good, etc. My only point is that even under the assumptions made by the proponents of invading Iraq, there was little incentive for foreigners to join us.)
Now, you could argue that Turkey had a unique incentive that "Old Europe" didn't have: The chance to shape events in Kurdistan. I think they knew that the US won't allow, or at least not support, a fully independent Kurdistan. We're already babysitting one non-Arab state in the Middle East, and whatever you might think of that situation, there's no denying that it's been, um, difficult at times. The Kurds will enjoy considerable autonomy within the Iraqi state, but we won't support any steps that would spark confrontation with Turkey, Iran, and Syria (all of which have Kurdish populations).
So, as long as the Turks know that we won't allow certain lines to be crossed, their politicians have a strong incentive to go along with the electorate, which was strongly opposed to the war. They get the long-term benefits of a freer, more stable neighbor, they avoid paying domestic political costs, and they are confident that we won't cross certain lines.
Todd Fletcher writes: "Yes, they are only in favor of the easy ones"
And the GOP fights all wars as if they are easy ones, regardless of the reality.
Another point on my earlier post:
The benefits of invading Iraq will be realized in the long term, longer than the typical election cycle. If the popular thing at the moment is to oppose the war, and you're confident that the US will go ahead and do it anyway and thus deliver the benefits to the whole world in the long term, then it's pretty easy to figure out what a foreign politician should do.
Thoreau--
Your posts contradicted Jennifer's theory about Kurdistan. You were supposed to point this out and talk about what a stupid ignorant buffoon she is. I suggest you go back to your high-school debating team and learn a few things.
Andrew writes: "I will add, the US is GOOD...under any president, any party. Incomparable in human experience."
You sound like you've mixed up the US and the Pope.
You certainly don't sound like any kind of libertarian. More like an authoritarian.
joshua corning writes: "Anyway I do not think that the US military views Iraqi civilians as the enemy "
Apparently, they do, if you write "I IZ A INSERGENT" on a note and stick it on a random civilian's back.
The poor sod will wake up wearing a hood with his legs crushed to a pulp. Whoops!
"In that sense, you could think of Iraq as a public goods problem: As soon as somebody does it, everybody benefits, so there's no incentive for anybody else to share in the costs."
I will have to say that the discussion points and arguments against the iraq war givin by Thoreau are the most consistanly "libertarian" on the board.
The above is just an example there are plenty of others. Anyway it is refereshing to hear a libertarian's argument against the war which is distictly different from say a leftist one.
Thank you Thoreau.
joshua-
Glad you liked it, but I didn't really think of that as an argument against the war. It's more a discussion of why other governments had no reason to support the war, irrespective of its merits. Even if the war will yield long term security benefits that are worth the costs, once the coalition is large enough to get the job done there's no incentive for anybody else to jump on board. Enjoy the long term benefits, avoid the short term costs that acrue to members.
It's also the reason why I was skeptical of Kerry's whole "I would have gotten more allies on board." However sincerely he might believe in his diplomatic abilities, why should a foreign politician buck domestic popular opinion, spend money, sacrifice soldiers, and risk terrorist retaliation (in the short term, before the liberal beacon is firmly established and wooing young men away from terrorism) for something that the US can accomplish on its own?
To elaborate, if in some alternative universe I were a foreign head of state in 2002, and John Galt Kerry was US President in 2002 and coming to win me over on the war, here's how the conversation would go:
Me: OK, you've persuaded me, this war is absolutely necessary to the security of the world.
Kerry: Glad you agree.
Me: Now, I'm looking at the troop numbers, and it seems to me that you can do this with your existing active and reserve forces.
Kerry: Yes, but it would look better if you join us.
Me: It would look better for you domestically, you mean. Me, I have an election next year. And a budget deficit. And we've already got forces in Afghanistan and the Balkans. Not to mention that the last thing my country needs is to risk terrorist retaliation.
Kerry: Yes, but...
Me: I need you to win, but I don't need to help you in order for that to happen.
Kerry: If I don't have your support then I won't go.
Me: But, you agree that this is absolutely essential to the long term security of Western Civilization!
Kerry: Exactly! So why do you oppose it?
Me: You have enough troops to save Western Civilization for the long term. Are you saying you'll hold off on that crucial task?
Kerry: Well, no...
Me: So, I wish you luck, my friend. But in public I will have no choice but to denounce this. You will save all of our asses for the long term, but in the mean time I will keep my own ass safe.
(And if you think that I'm a little more idealistic than that, keep in mind that this is an alternate universe where I'm a savvy politician.)
BTW, I have no idea if the French and Germans actually secretly thought that the war was a good idea. Probably the opposite.
I'm just saying that if even if the hawks' most idealistic claims are indeed right, and the war in Iraq is necessary to save civilization, then there's still no incentive for them to help us do this.
Funny--I thought "I would have gotten more allies on board" was more meant to send the subliminal message "I wouldn't have gone unless I could have gotten more allies on board." Since he lacked the guts to suggest that the war itself may have been a bad idea.
joshua, you totally ducked my question about the implication of your statement re: importer/exporter of terrorism, and casting Iraqi civilians as enemies.
Jennifer: By the time Turkey bowed-out, the whole world knew we were going to attack (we had an infantry division floating around in the eastern Med waiting for the Turkish OK which never came), and the rest of the troops were at their start lines in Kuwait.
Regarding "not having the guts to say the war itself was a bad idea"--Well, I guess this is what happens when you try to stay on topic. The war was certainly a bad idea IF you go about it the way the Bush administration did. You may think it was a bad idea anyway, but that's not what the original post was about. Since I don't have a direct pipeline into the State Department, I can't prove what might have been accomplished diplomatically if we hadn't taken the Texas gunslinger approach, but at the very least it is likely that the French and the Russians (especially the Russians) could have been bought off for the right price, which would almost certainly have been a lot lower than what we have paid so far (and maybe even lower than what we offered Turkey). And if we had done that, we might have leeway to put more pressure on Iran and North Korea.
Thoreau: France and Russia, and to some extent Germany, all had more to lose by an invasion than they gained, due to their strong commercial ties (and enormous loans) with Iraq. I really believe the whole thing came down to money more than anything else.
As a liberal hawk, of course I disagree with Tim and the American Prospect writers.
Tim sez: "The rise of the neoconservatives are the main reason war is now defined as a conservative issue - and the neocons are by definition (and for the most part by biography) people rooted in the left."
In reality, it was 9/11 that shifted things and brought on the rise of the neocons. I'll never forget in a 2000 debate with Gore, Bush was asked about Rwanda - 600,000 men, women and children slaughtered in an ethnic cleansing campaign within a few months - and he responded that it wasn't in our national interest to intervene, so he wouldn't have at the time. Definitely not "idealistic" or "humanitarian" or pollyanish. Deeply cynical and self-centered in fact.
I think after 9/11, Cheney, hard ass conservative that he is, decided the US should stop paying off the dysfunctionally corrupt Cold War era, Mid-East dictatorships and remake the Middle East, as risky as that was. Plus he thought if there was any chance, any whatsoever, Saddam would help terrorists, (remember, your enemy's enemy is often your friend) he should be removed from power. Time magazine reported that in March 2002 - a full year before the invasion - Bush outlined his real thinking to three U.S. senators, "F--- Saddam," Bush said. "We're taking him out."
Bush and Cheney are and have always been conservatives and they made the choice, not the neocons as Tim suggests. Wolfowitz and the neocons made the argument, but they weren't in charge.
Sam Rosenfeld and Matthew Yglesias want to appear "realistic" and "tough minded" - "Iraqis have to suffer under Saddam? Too bad for them. Thems the breaks" and yet still retain their idealism cred. They want to have it both ways and I don't see how their piece resolves this contradiction.
Or perhaps it's mere partisanship, i.e. Bush is for it, ergo we must be against it.
Ron-
I have no doubt that you're right. My bigger point was that, even if they weren't profiting from the status quo, and even if we had John Galt Kerry as President, why should they help us? Look at all of the other countries on the globe that either gave no help or just some token help. Were all of them profiting from the status quo?