At Least We Don't Live in France

On the Champs Elysees, better watch what you say: Aging icon of French pulchritude Brigitte Bardot fined $6,000 for remarks about Muslims and gays that a French court found hateful. Ah, the troubles that result from trying to balance liberty, equality, and fraternity….

[Link thanks to Ivan Osorio.]

Comments

[thoreau]

Paging Jean Bart....um, I mean, Gary Gunnels.

[Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkey]

I don't suppose you want a French lesson, but it's "Champs Elys?es" (since "champs" is plural, "?lys?e" must become so too).

[wellfellow]

You know it had to eat Gary up to wait and not be the first post here, thus blowing his cover. 🙂

[meep]

Egads! Here's a notion: if they start fining people for hateful remarks against America(ns), the French coffers will overflow! Since the US is a minority in global political opinion, aren't we entitled to some sort of victim status as well?

[thoreau]

wellfellow-

It's possible that Gary is the true identity and Jean Bart was the alias.

Or maybe Gary and Jean are both aliases for somebody else. Maybe that same person is posting as me, and you, and joe, and Joe, and Joe L., etc.

If I keep going down that road I'll have the same conversation about reality that a friend and I had after watching Matrix Reloaded.

[wellfellow]

I always wanted to be Edward Teach, Tim(not Cavanaugh), Steve from CN, or Emmerson...

[Shady O'Grady]

That will be a 3000 franc fine for each accent agu missed. Does this website show up in France?

[Geotech]

The only conversation I got into after seeing 'The Matrix Reloaded' was a discussion about what a bad movie it was. I got into a similar discussion after seeing 'The Matirx' too.

[Patriot]

Since when have the French tried to balance liberty with anything? Liberty loses everytime. Sadly, the US is heading in the same direction...

[grizzly]

Man, I had to look up "pulchritude".

[Lisa Simpson]

Francs, Shady? Pas plus...

I can't bring myself to watch The Matrix 'cuz it's so damned washed-out, bleak, and ugly. Couldn't get into the later parts of Fight Club for the same reason.

[Eric II]

meep, I think the French are only in the business of fining those who fling insults at people who actually give a damn about them.

[Gary Gunnels]

willfellow,

What cover?

I was doing some ADR work; helping to site a SW facility - we have one nutbar environmentalist trying to torpedo the plan.

[Todd Fletcher]

You should have labeled the Bardot link NSFW.

[Gary Gunnels]

There appears to be little difference between this action and fining Clear Channel for what Stern might say - though of course the subject matters differ.

[Jose Ortega y Gasset]

I, for one, do not believe that Mr. Gunnels is also Mssr. Bart. This thread questions the wisdom of a decision by the French. Given my observations of Mssr. Bart, I believe he would have 1) defended the action of the French court, 2) found a way to point out the outstanding record of the French in fighting terrorism, 3) insulted someone.

Mr. Gunnels does not distinguish between the action of a court and the action of a private employer. Whatever one might say about Mssr. Bart, I cannot see him making the error of drawing a comparison of the two situations.

[chthus]

Hey, at least I don't live in Baltimore either. Oh crap, I do. That's it, I'm not leaving the house anymore.

24-hour camera surveillance in city is part of bigger plan
Financed by homeland security grants, new network aimed at fighting terrorists as much as drug dealers

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-te.md.cameras10jun10,0,2211108.story?coll=bal-local-headlines

[J]

"Mr. Gunnels does not distinguish between the action of a court and the action of a private employer."

Neither one involved private employers, did they? Bardot was fined by the court, Clear Channel was fined by the FCC. (Unless you're talking about Clear Channel dumping Stern, but I thought that came about because of the FCC action).

PS - I bet they're the same person, or someone went to a lot of trouble to copy writing style, commonly used phrases, general unprovoked aggressiveness, etc. There are too many similarities....

[thoreau]

Senor Ortega y Gasset,

I agree that Mr. Gunnels and Monsieur Bart have somewhat different political stances. However, there are some uncanny similarities in the styles that they use to present their arguments.

1) They pay very close attention to errors made by other posters, and after homing in on an error they'll sometimes announce that they don't take that poster seriously anymore.
2) They frequently draw upon their formidable knowledge of history (which is not a bad thing, just an uncanny similarity). One key difference here is that Jean Bart was more likely to post links.
3) They have a similar style of posting several messages in a row, first making one point and then another. Sure, plenty of people here will occasionally have an additional thought after hitting the "post" button and subsequently post it. But it's a frequent occurence for Mr. Gunnels. And many posters here try to reply to multiple people in the same post (i.e. first address a point from one person, then address a point from another), while Gunnels and Bart tend to (usually, but not always) make separate posts for separate people.
4) There are similarities in tone.
5) As a matter of style, Mr. Gunnels is supposed to be in Vermont right now, but he usually refers to his experiences in the South rather than his experiences in VT. Monsieur Bart, as I recall, said that he was living in New Hampshire because of his American wife (correct me if I'm wrong), but almost all of his posts made reference to his experiences in France rather than his experiences in NH.

None of these things prove anything, but they've stuck out in my mind, and they are suggestive. I think there's one person (who may be neither French nor Southern) with (at least) 2 distinct online identities.

[you'll never know who]

What's so bad about posting with several distinct identities? I can't believe I'm the only one here doing it.

And in case you're wondering, I'm neither Jean Bart nor Gary Gunnels. But those gentleman kinda seem similar to me.

[Mo]

What about Lefty? I remember when JB first appeared, Lefty disappeared (there was 0 overlap) and some speculated that Left was JB. GG and JB both posted in the same board occasionally, so maybe GG is Lefty risen from the ashes.

[SPoodge]

I feel somehow dumber for having read thru this thread.

[J]

"I feel somehow dumber...."

I get that feeling all the time. You'll get used to it.

[Gary Gunnels]

thoreau,

I'm not Jean Bart. However, as nothing I will write will convince you otherwise, I consider any statement my might make to be futile.

I am a Southerner; I do live in Vermont (where I go to law school); and I was in a former life a graduate student at Auburn University (history).

[Gary Gunnels]

Mo,

I ain't Lefty son. 🙂

[J]

I used to be joe. Tomorrow I think I'll be thoreau. I thought about being Tim Cavanaugh, but he's too mean.

[B.P.]

And J.B. was The Merovingian for a bit. Oooh, what a potboiler.

[thoreau]

However, as nothing I will write will convince you otherwise, I consider any statement my might make to be futile.

Aw, come on, you did that one on purpose! 🙂

Seriously, though, maybe you aren't Jean Bart. All I know is that there are some interesting similarities, and you appeared on my radar just as JB faded away. (Although I admit that there was a short period of overlap.) Anyway, it's always fun to guess at the identities of people on this forum. It adds a more personal dimension to our debates.

[SM]

Then there was also Croesus, also french, who disappeared when JB arrived.

[fyodor]

I believe JB was indeed Croesus, and he may even have owned up to it.

But if Gary Gunnels is Jean Bart, he must have taken a whole bunch of prozac since his JB days!!! Just think of the squealing he'd be doing on this thread!! Not only would JB insult others, as Jose mentioned above, but at any *perceived* slight of France he would invariably and frenetically take shots at the US. Of course, others may have started it by gratuitously insulting France first, I couldn't say anymore....

[Mark Fox]

I have lingering suspicions that Jennifer and Julian Sanchez are the same person. 🙂

Clever ploy by the Illuminati, as we try to discern who is who, we forget the real question: Who is in control?

[Phil]

As a matter of style, Mr. Gunnels is supposed to be in Vermont right now . . .

The capital of which is Montpelier, which is, of course, French . . .

[Mo]

Agatha Christie this is not. I'm pretty sure you aren't Lefty, GG, just stirring the pot. Maybe there needs to be a comments section devoted to H&R navel gazing.

To respond to your statement GG, I guess the differnece is that the CC fines are because the radio is transmitted into homes, the whole public airwaves deal, while Bardot was fined for a book (something that wouldn't happen here). I don't agree with Stern fines either. Maybe we can stay on topic.

Everytime a H&R poster leaves, an angel gets a life. 🙂

[Mona]

FWIW, I do not think Gary Gunnels is Jean Bart. Gary demonstrates a great deal of competency in American social history, especially regarding matters pertaining to race. He claims to have done graduate work in the area of American history and evinces thorough familiarity with prominent names in that field. That I've seen, Jean Bart is not nearly as well versed in American history as Gunnels is. Indeed, I had some impression of Gary as the prototypical grad student anxious to impress us all with all his book larnin', which has not been a particular trait of Jean Bart's.

Gary says he is in law school. I believe it. It's where we all end up when we realize how many Ph.D's in history work at MacDonald's. And he has the asshole traits necessary to thrive in that profession. (I mean that sincerely, and personally find practicing law very distateful largely because of the personality types of too many of my colleagues.)

That said, Gary does not strike me as quite as gratuitously obnoxious and insulting as Jean Bart. While I have often found much of substance in Jean Bart's posts, after a bit I found the patronizing arrogance too annoying, and if there were an ignore feature on H&R, he'd be in my kill filter. Gary isn't that egregiously nasty, at least not that I've seen.

But I could be wrong.

--Mona--

[Lisa Simpson]

What happened to DJ of Raleigh?
He *seemed* pretty intelligent,
but I don't really know,
since I couldn't read his
peculiar
way
of
typing.

[Douglas Fletcher]

"What happened to DJ of Raleigh?"

I've seen his posts on a bluegrass list I'm on, and being as it's summertime, he's probably out going to bluegrass festivals and all that. Basically, he's probably on vacation.

[Gary Gunnels]

Its rather interesting how this community shifts in its membership over time.

Mona,

I guess I should say, hmm, thanks? 🙂

[Rick Barton]

I was just thinking that it would be neat if it turned out that one of us was actually an AI construct, aka a "bot".

Hmmm...that sounds like the basis for a great cyfi story...

[Rick Barton]

Patriot:

" Liberty loses everytime. Sadly, the US is heading in the same direction..."

It need not be that way. The future is unwritten.
However, liberty might well require "eternal vigilance".

[MALAK]

Jean Bart also mentioned taking a new job in Europe to be closer to (allegedly) aging parents. Also closer to the family vineyard. Have had an e-mail exchange outside this forum with JB/merovingian. Do not believe that GG is JB. But then, what the hell do I know?

[thoreau]

In light of comments in this thread, I'm stepping away from my confident assertion that JB and GG are the same person. I still think there are some uncanny coincidences, and the anonymity of this forum means that anything is possible, but I consider it more likely that the similarities are a coincidence.

[Ray]

I used a pseud one time long ago on a political board such as this because I thought everyone did (I was new - so sue me).

Anyway, I tried to lay low for a week or so and then come back with my real name just so I wouldn't be hiding behind an alias. I didn't want anyone to know because posters like JB would forever use it against me whenever they ran out of anything intelligent to say.

And of course I was detected almost immediately. I don't post here enough to recognize such styles but if the general consensus is that JB is GG, I think that is pretty solid evidence.

Of course the Reason editors can check the IP on the posts and confirm this one way or another but if neither are being abusive they probably won't (and shouldn't).

[rst]

denied the holocaust

It never happened, it was just a conspiracy by really hungry Jewish cannibals.

Am I a criminal in Europe now?

[Jose Ortega y Gasset]

Ah, Thoreau, nice men are all alike; every ass is ass in his own way. I have some experience with the French culture and the mere suggestion of idiocy by the French court would sent Mssr. Bart into a frothing diatribe. Mr. Gunnels, however, lacks this essential uber-nationalist impulse. Of course, it might all be a clever disguise.

And I must apologize for misreading Mr. Gunnels post... although I note that Mr. Stern was not held personally liable for his remarks, his employer was fined by the FCC. I also note that Ms. Bardot was fined for remarks made in a book, a medium in America that generally enjoys the protection of the First Amendment. Comments made over the "public" airwaves, however, do not enjoy the same protections (for rather esoteric and arbitrary reasons). I suspect Mr. Stern could write a book far more scathing than Ms. Bardot's excoriating any number of politically-protected minorities without ever having an American court fine him for being... well, Howard Stern.

Insofar as online identities, I once posted extensively under my real name on an online forum. After some particularly divisive debates, one of my more mentally unstable opponents decided to track me down "in real life." Apparently, there is nothing more offensive than one who argues in a civil manner. I understand why some participants in the forum may wish to remain anonymous... although I do appreciate when people use a consistent nom du plume.

Ah, my final guess is that Mr. Gunnels did in the Billiards Room with a rope. Do I win?

[Jose Ortega y Gasset]

You need not go to the effort of denying the Holocaust. It is enough simply to be American. I agree that the remark's by Bardot are repugnant, however, this does not justify the actions of the French court (a body that might benefit from a dollop of Voltaire.) The great advantage of freedom of expression is that it makes identifying the stupid and/or crazy much easier. Furthermore, "prohibition" does not work (it often makes things worse). This general rule applies to alcohol, drugs, hateful speech, etc. C'est la vie.

[MALAK]

Nice one Jose. Personally, I suspect that Jean Bart did it (to himself), in the library, with the candlestick. It has that Gallic flare, tinged with JB's overdone thoroughness.

A toast to the departed Jean Bart: May the wine from his vineyards be as sharp as the cheese from his posts. Thank you, and don't forget to tip your server . . .

[Douglas Fletcher]

What is this, a friggin' state funeral or something?

[Gary Gunnels]

Karl Kraus,

The only thing I can see on the Auburn website about me are some finding aids I did back in 1999-2000 when I worked for the Archives Department in the Library. Anyway, if you want to insist that I am Jean Bart - apparently a lover of pirates he is - there is nothing I can do about it in particular. Why this is an issue that chaps your ass I don't know, but if your object is to try to turn every discussion we have into one concerning my identity, then I'd say you're a little obssesed.

[John Hensley]

The most ironic part is that French intellectual tradition encourages verbal bomb-throwing. It's only recently that the government has chosen to decide which bombs are acceptable.

[JDM]

GG is JB on his meds. He is slightly sharper as JB, which leads me to wonder what he's taking. Not that it matters. Use whatever drugs or names you like, or 3 names at once.

[Gary Gunnels]

Jose Ortega y Gasset,

I read some of your works in a historiography class that I had as an undergraduate.

As to Ms. Bardot, I think French law is being applied to her as it was applied to an earlier author who denied the holocaust - however, I can't recall the other author's name at this point.

[Jose Ortega y Gasset]

I thought the defining element of French intellectual tradition was the sense of superiority over all other intellectual traditions. And Mr. Gunnels, I hope you enjoyed the work of my namesake. I had given some thought to using "Thorstein Veblen," but I settled on Ortega y Gasset for several reasons. We have in common education by Jesuits and a passion for hunting. And, of course, he is not French.

[Jeff Clothier]

While French politics has always been obscure to me, I find Ms. Bardot's even moreso. A radical right-wing animal rights activist? Only Seulement en France..

[Jeff Clothier]

"I'm Brian of Nazareth."

"No, I'm Brian!"

"I'm Brian, and so is my wife."

Who is Jean Bart?

Who is John Galt?

[dhex]

more importantly, who is john guilt?

one of my favorite RAW cheapshots.

[Gary Gunnels]

Jose Ortega y Gasset,

It was interesting.

I like a lot of French historians: for example, Marc Bloch, Georges Duby, Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie, Ferdinand Braudel, de Tocqueville, Francois Furet, etc.

Jeff Clothier,

I think reactionary might be a better term; from what I read of her views in the article, her attitudes are, well, appalling.

[MALAK]

Where have you gone merovingian? Reason loves you more than you could know . . .

with apologies to DJ in Raleigh, Simon & Garfunkel, and the entire state of Rhode Island. Just because . . .

[Jeff Clothier]

Gary,

"I think reactionary might be a better term; from what I read of her views in the article, her attitudes are, well, appalling."

I think we have reached a rare and glorious moment of agreement. 😉

While I share a milder form of alarm about runaway immigration, Muslim culture, and the decline of public behavior, as well as a more benign streak of nationalism - American, not French - with Ms. Bardot, I believe she takes all to insane extremes, and certainly busts out all the seams of good taste and common sense.

I've always suspected animal rights activists of a certain amount of self-loathing. After all, when one downgrades one's own species in favor of others so blatantly, what can that say about one's self respect as a member of the species she vilifies?

[Karl Kraus]

Is this why "Gary G. has more nics than can be listed here" according to the Auburn Website? And is this why he claims on an Anti War Petition to be "USA/France"?

[thoreau]

I still think it would be cool if it turned out that one of us was actually an AI construct, aka a "bot".

I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.
I am not a bot whose algorithm got stuck in a loop.

[Rick Barton]

thoreau,

LOL Also; a funny scientist! You're smashing another stereotype.

[Rick Barton]

So France, not Bulgaria or the Czech Republic, but France mind you, is having some pretty serious free speech problems and we're too caught up in the JB-GG identity drama to write much about it!

Just what might cause such a response on this thread could be the subject of a whole new thread!

FWIW; I think the JB and GG are different folks. One of the reasons that I believe this is that GG implied that he was Gay and JB spoke of a wife. That's a pretty big bio difference for a deception as non-critical as a blog handle.

One of the last threads (perhaps THE last) I remember JB posting on is one that he said that; since the US government is making such a cluster f*** out of the Iraq occupation (true), now France needs to help. (kinda cute, huh? And, I don't think that you can fake that sort of charming, pride driven naivet?)

I told him that if France were to do that, they would be giving up the high moral ground that they claimed when opposed the whole fraud in the first place.

I still think it would be cool if it turned out that one of us was actually an AI construct, aka a "bot".

[Rick Barton]

Make that...."when they opposed the whole fraud." Sorry about that. I better crash.

[Rick Barton]

Actually, we don't need a new fallacy to cover when people post under different names to give the impression that another person agrees with them, as if that could somehow buttress whatever case that they are making. It's:

ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM

Description: A fallacy that asserts that the more people who support or believe a proposition then the more likely that that proposition is correct; it equates mass support with correctness.

http://www.locksley.com/6696/logic.htm

[Rick Barton]

What ever the truth is; WHAT JB and GG have said has been far more interesting than if they are the same person or not.

Sometimes people post under a certain name in a dishonest and futile effort to enhance a point. I remember when joe exposed someone who was defending the actions of the Israeli government using an Arab sounding name. joe did a little email address checking and the ruse was laid bare.

Or, sometimes people will post under different names to give the impression that another person agrees with them, as if that could somehow buttress whatever case that they are making. Perhaps we need to add another fallacy to the standard list of fallacies to cover this one. I propose: "Argument From Plurality".

BTW, here are two nice logical fallacies links:

http://www.locksley.com/6696/logic.htm

http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Logical%20Fallacies.htm