New York's Trafficking Court Turns Sex Workers Into Victims

New York state's latest attempt to help sex slaves will also punish sex workers

ProstitutionDark SevierOn Wednesday, Sept. 25, New York state’s highest-ranking judge announced a first-of-its-kind initiative. In an effort to combat human trafficking and stop criminal courts from punishing victims of trafficking, New York will no longer treat sex workers as criminals. Instead of prison time, a special court will provide victims with social services, such as medical treatment and job training. However, the policy fails to distinguish between sex workers and sex slaves. This is a paternalistic perception that strips women of agency in an attempt to protect them from their own choices. “Saving” sex workers, after arresting and arraigning them, will not accomplish the court’s goals. 

Federal law regarding human trafficking specifies that the difference between a worker and a slave is force or fraud, except in the case of sex. The law disregards the possibility that someone would choose to engage in prostitution. In doing so, it not only ignores sex workers, who must risk arrest and prison to earn a living, but fails the victims of force and fraud. 

The message from our court system on respect for women’s agency is clear. In 2006, a press release announcing an FBI, Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and New York City Police Department prostitution sting called the story of the 31 arrests “Halting Human Trafficking,” although there was no evidence presented that the sting uncovered any force, fraud or coercion, only prostitution.

Following the sting, FBI Special Agent Andrew Arena spoke at a press conference and the real target was obvious from his words: “The FBI is part of the apparatus in place to protect people, sometimes even from their own poor choices.” 

The first task of New York’s new trafficking court is determining whether the arraigned persons are sex slaves or sex workers. This is a curious task, since trafficking law does not acknowledge the possibility of voluntary sex work, while prostitution law does not acknowledge the possibility of sex slavery. If every sex worker is considered a human trafficking victim, how could anyone be arrested for or charged with prostitution? 

Beyond that quirk of law, if history is any guide, trust in the New York court system to differentiate between consensual employment and trafficking is entirely misplaced. 

Last June, Manhattan’s District Attorney attempted to send two pimps to prison for 25 years on human trafficking charges. However, the effort failed after two of their “slaves” testified in the pimps’ defense. One of the women described their relationship as “family.” One defendant, Vincent George, apparently supported the woman and the daughter they have together for years after she gave birth and while she took a break from prostitution. 

Once the determination is made that the state has a victim on its hands, the treatment begins. All “recommended” services, such as drug treatment, education, job training, health care, and immigration help, are mandatory and must be completed before prostitution charges are dropped. It is similar to the way drug courts handle offenders, with all the attendant problems.

A special court is a recognition that existing laws make it possible to be both a victim and a criminal. They’re an attempt to avoid further hurting victims with prison time and fines, as well as an attempt to offer help to people who need it. But special courts fail to recognize the people who are not hurting themselves or anyone else, but are criminals only by law. 

There are genuine human trafficking victims in the U.S. Some arrive in the country through threats or fraud, and are then forced into sex slavery. But these are not the same people who have chosen sex work. 

Additionally, sex workers are potentially human trafficking’s most effective foes, as they are ideally situated to identify sex slavery and alert the authorities. Or they would be if they did not risk arrest and prosecution for doing so. 

Special courts allow the state to pretend it’s doing something while not implementing the best solution: ending prohibition. Forcing people into treatment for “problems” like deciding to use drugs or engage in sex work creates new problems for them. A woman in state-mandated courses isn’t earning money or taking care of her family. A man in a state-mandated drug-treatment program is likely to lose his job.  

A UN Human Rights Council report from the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women calls for countries to consider decriminalizing sex work, “As a strategy to reduce the opportunities for exploitative labor practices in the sex sector.” 

New York state’s attempt to stop further victimization of people caught up in human trafficking is admirable. But in the process these special courts strip women of their agency while failing to address the biggest problem in the sex trade. 

Today it is incredibly difficult for law enforcement and other organizations to differentiate between sex workers and sex slaves. Arresting everyone for prostitution and then sorting them out in court is not the answer. The only thing that will work is allowing sex workers to work, free from the threat of arrest and prosecution. The job of law enforcement should be to keep sex workers safe from violence and recruit them in the fight against slavery.

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  • Ken Shultz||

    "This is a paternalistic perception that strips women of agency in an attempt to protect them from their own choices."

    "The FBI is part of the apparatus in place to protect people, sometimes even from their own poor choices."

    "All “recommended” services, such as drug treatment, education, job training, health care, and immigration help, are mandatory."

    I swear...

    In some ways, progressives are worse than Christian fundamentalists.

    Christian fundamentalists mostly just want to control what we do, but progressives want to "rehabilitate" us and control what we want.

  • Hyperion||

    Yep, the proglodytes, the ultimate statists, the new puritans.

  • Hyperion||

    But see, it's all ok, because they only want to control every single aspect of your life, for your own good, and the children. And the 'right' people are in charge now.

  • ||

    You ever read Jack Williamson's With Folded Hands? Because it's about total control...for your own good, of course.

  • Hyperion||

    Not yet, but not sure I have to, I think we're living it.

  • Ted S.||

    I'm also reminded of the movie The Twonky.

  • grey||

    Try: The Tall Man; kidnapping children from poor coal mine town to give them to progressive rich people to raise. Actual kidnapping advocacy for the good of the children. Leave it to Hollywood to be on the cutting edge of progressive thought.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Yep, the proglodytes, the ultimate statists, the new puritans.

    If they want to change what you want, then they're worse than Puritans. I think I'd rather be punished for doing what I wanted rather than being subjected to a program where they try to change what I want.

    It's like the difference between authoritarianism and totalitarianism. In authoritarian countries, they may tell you what to do, and you have to do it. In North Korea, however, that isn't good enough. There, they tell you what to think; how to feel; what to want, etc., and you have to think, feel, and want it!

    That's sort of the way I see progressives. They imagine that all thinking, good people want what they want, and everybody that doesn't needs to be educated. Sometimes that means indoctrinating kids in schools; sometimes that means ridiculing adults for being rednecks or for their religious beliefs; sometimes that means pressuring the media to only show things the way progressives see them; and sometimes that means taking people who like drugs or prostitution and making them want what the progressives want through "recommended" but mandatory reeducation.

  • ||

    You have yet to learn how to love Big Brother.

  • mtrueman||

    "That's sort of the way I see progressives."

    Of all the comments posted here discussing what progressives think and want, and I'm talking about a lot of posts, yours is among the more interesting and surprising.

    In most conservative (or anti-progressive) boards I follow, progressives are faulted for their moral relativism. Here you seem to be embracing moral relativism and faulting progressives for their strict moral code. It's an interesting reversal from the norm.

    I suppose it comes from the value libertarianism places on desire, and our ability to carry out our desires unfettered. Whether they lead us into prostitution, charity work, are slouching on the couch watching tv, they all amount to the same thing for a libertarian. One persons desires are as good as another's.

  • Irish||

    As usual, your post is nonsensical and idiotic. Do you ever post anything with even a hint of forethought?

    I suppose it comes from the value libertarianism places on desire, and our ability to carry out our desires unfettered. Whether they lead us into prostitution, charity work, are slouching on the couch watching tv, they all amount to the same thing for a libertarian. One persons desires are as good as another's.

    No. The point is that whether you want to be a prostitute, work in charity, or slouch on the couch watching T.V., it's your decision, and regardless of my personal opinion of your life, you should be allowed to lead it how you want so long as you aren't hurting anyone.

    We're talking about the difference between a political philosophy and a moral belief. People like you believe that it's good when your moral opinions infect your political beliefs. I see it as a corruption and a terrible idea that inevitably degrades the moral and the political alike.

    So long as I'm not hurting anybody, keep your moral opinions out of my fucking life.

  • mtrueman||

    I'm not sure that you aren't hurting anybody. If you have a moral code but shrink away from applying it simply because someone other than yourself in involved, that's an example of moral cowardice. It's yourself you are hurting at the very least.

    I have to admit I don't consider myself a moral relativist. There's a right and a wrong, and that doesn't change no matter who's actions are being considered. If something is wrong for me, then it's wrong for you too.

  • grey||

    It's wrong for me to post on the Reason blogs. So it's wrong for you.

    "If something is wrong for me, then it's wrong for you too."

    Talk about non-sensical. So, what's the next sentence? If it's wrong for you, then you want the Government to use force against me to stop me?

  • larry hammond||

    You confuse having a moral judgement with desiring for the state to enforce MY judgement through force of law. I can be against something, but not wish for the government to control that behavior. Doesn't mean I endorse the behavior.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Progressives, an offshoot of what were once known as liberals, have ceded all claim to being the party of civil liberties.

    And with the libertarian movement making headway "on the right", we may finally have our battle of good vs evil. Liberty vs oppression.

    What can the progs point to that would dismiss the notion that they are NOT completely statist in their philosophy? They have come to worship the state for all things and never question.

    This is the Jedi vs the Sith, the Alliance vs the browncoats, the Justice League vs the Legion of Doom, Harry Potter vs Voldemort, the Fellowship vs Sauron, Austin Powers vs Dr Evil, the Federation vs the Borg...

    They have become TRULY evil.

  • DaveA||

    Progressives were always evil. America was practically a libertarian paradise until the 1910's, when the "progressive" Woman's Christian Temperance Union convinced every state but Nevada to outlaw prostitution. They also argued that women, being the "morally superior sex", should be allowed to vote. The 19th Amendment ended this debate, because 99% of women would vote against anyone who suggested legalization. Even many prostitutes are against it!

  • Flast||

    Puritans recognize the flawed nature of humanity, but progs believe, against all evidence, in the blank slate theory, and that's what makes them so dangerous.

  • mtrueman||

    "and control what we want"

    The ability to control what we want is the sign of an adult. Otherwise it's the sign of a child. The libertarian defence of childishness and their opposition to virtue has always seemed strangely unattractive to me.

  • Irish||

    The ability to control what we want is the sign of an adult. Otherwise it's the sign of a child. The libertarian defence of childishness and their opposition to virtue has always seemed strangely unattractive to me.

    So the belief that we shouldn't coerce or violate other people isn't a virtue? What you're actually saying isn't that we are opposed to virtue, it's that we're opposed to letting you force your idea of virtue onto people who don't want it.

    My apologies if you find the concept of liberty childish.

  • mtrueman||

    "My apologies if you find the concept of liberty childish."

    It's imprudence and intemperance that I find childish. Your defence of these vices is perverse and comment worthy.

  • grey||

    Not using violence to impose an idea on other people is a vice? Would that make not stealing a vice? How about not raping, another vice?

  • Its Amazing||

    I just want to add my story. I get paid over $87 per hour working online with Google! I work two shifts 2 hours in the day and 2 in the evening. And whats awesome is Im working from home so I get more time with my kids. Its by-far the best job I’ve had. I follow this great link http://cuttr.it/ukvczrq

  • Rich||

    Special courts allow the state to pretend it’s doing something while not implementing the best solution

    Wait, are we discussing the FISA Court?

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    When a person is a victim, the government can step in to save her. Ack!!

  • Hyperion||

    If you aren't a straight white male who doesn't vote a straight up Democrat ticket, you're a victim.

  • ||

    uptil I saw the bank draft for $9693, I didn't believe that my sister woz like realey taking home money parttime at there labtop.. there uncles cousin has done this for only about eighteen months and at present cleard the depts on there villa and bought a great Jaguar XJ. he said

    http://WWW.WORKS23.COM

  • ||

    labtop

    Is she cookin' meth again?

  • BakedPenguin||

    Breaking Bot

  • Marshall Gill||

    it will create more problems than it solves.

    Government in a nutshell.

  • Hillary's Clitdong||

    It's nice to new that in one of the most enlightened cities of the U.S., women can now choose whether they should be viewed as sexual temptresses in need of rehabilitation, or childlike victims in need of help.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "All “recommended” services, such as drug treatment, education, job training, health care, and immigration help, are mandatory."

    If this were another country, we might refer to a mandatory program of drug treatment, education, and job training as "reeducation".

    Especially when you're talking about mandatory drug treatment, those drug rehabilitation programs can end up looking a lot like the techniques they use reeducation camps or cults. It's one thing if you go into those programs voluntarily, but you can't change what people want (against their will) without really screwing with their heads.

  • thorax232||

    Adults telling adults what to do as if they were children.
    This is "our" society.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Next they'll be telling me I break into your house and take your cookie jar!

  • Normajeana||

    As a long time libertarian and sex worker rights activist, it is so refreshing to see a few libertarian minded people actually get what harm this prostitution abolitionist agenda causes to sex workers and society as a whole. I've been doing research from the FBI's Bureau of Justice Statistics, and have posted the analysis of 31 years worth of data on our policeprostitutionandpolitics .com website. I highly recommend the long but very informative document put together with stats and links to all sources where the facts completely contradict the lies perpetuated by the government: THE TRUTH ABOUT COPS, PROSTITUTES, SEX TRAFFICKING AND CHILD SEXUAL EXPLOITATION - under the section entitled FACTS AT YOUR FINGERTIPS - THE TRUTH ABOUT SEX TRAFFICKING Statistics and Data

    Please feel free to use the material that we have spent years putting together to counter the lies of the abolitionists from the left and the right. When you see how the prohibitionist laws are being used to give law enforcement agents the opportunity to extort/ rape/ pimp sex workers, the laws no longer seem 'beneficial' to anyone.

  • Irish||

    As a long time libertarian and sex worker rights activist, it is so refreshing to see a few libertarian minded people actually get what harm this prostitution abolitionist agenda causes to sex workers and society as a whole.

    I don't think you'll find many people around here who aren't in favor of sex worker rights.

    The entire idea that women should be treated like wards of the state, to be saved from their own decisions by big strong men in uniform, is disgusting.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Lots of women support outlawing prostitution too. And have you ever heard of female cops? It's libertarians who are the all male gang trying to force their policies down our throats.

  • Irish||

    Yeah, and there were black slave owners and women who hated the suffragettes. There were peasants who were oppressed by feudal lords who nonetheless advocated that system due to the indoctrination of the church and government.

    It's almost like people often don't give a shit about other members of their gender, class or race. Just because women are willing to allow other women to be abused, raped, and violated out of a desire to control other people's genitals does not change the fact that those women were abused, raped and violated.

    It's libertarians who are the all male gang trying to force their policies down our throats.

    All male? I think you should google a few names: Shikha Dalmia, Ayn Rand, Rose Wilder Lane, Julie Borowski, Lucy Steigerwald...hell, let's look at the name of this article's author: Cathy Reisenwitz. How about the person who posted right above me: Norma Jeana. Those are strange names for men.

    I also fail to see how the argument that women should be allowed to choose for themselves involves forcing anyone to do anything. You're the one forcing women into jail cells, 'rehab' facilities, and the black market, you fascist.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Yeah, and there were black slave owners and women who hated the suffragettes. There were peasants who were oppressed by feudal lords who nonetheless advocated that system due to the indoctrination of the church and government.

    Yeah, so why:

    The entire idea that women should be treated like wards of the state, to be saved from their own decisions by big strong men in uniform, is disgusting.

    You were obviously trying to play the feminist anti-male card. I called bullshit.

    I also fail to see how the argument that women should be allowed to choose for themselves involves forcing anyone to do anything. You're the one forcing women into jail cells, 'rehab' facilities, and the black market, you fascist.

    Because he who has the gold, calls the shots. I'm not "forcing" these women to be whores in the Black market. They are making that decision themselves. And economic circumstances, stupidity, and family breakdown is what causes them to make that decision. Again, where are the college educated women from stable families among these prostitutes? Restoring the American family, paying the working class a living wage, and truly helping the less intelligent will do a lot to make prostitution no longer a problem. Look at change in the price for prostitutes over the last century if you think nothing can be done about it. You probably think the price went up. In fact, it went way down.

  • Irish||

  • Irish||

    I'm a college educated suburban stay at home mom...and a prostitute!

    How did the oldest profession become a career choice for middle-class girls?

    Seriously, these aren't even hard to find. Your uneducated, hyper-ignorant stereotyping aside, prostitution is not simply a career for impoverished people from broken homes.

  • johnl||

    Lots of smart educated women have done sex work and write about it. For example, Maggie Mcneill, Brooke Magnanti, and Norma Jean who posted above. You just have to read them to see those women are plenty smart. And it's just dumb to assume they made their choices because of family issues. Maggie started working after she finished school and started working as a librarian. Whatever decisions she made at 24 were not her dad's fault.

  • Normajeana||

    "And economic circumstances, stupidity, and family breakdown is what causes them to make that decision. Again, where are the college educated women from stable families among these prostitutes?"

    Are you for real? There are so many of us out here who are very well educated, have a stable family (I've been with my husband for 38 years) and I hardly think that deciding to earn $500 per hour (or more- when I was still working in this profession) makes one 'stupid.' Prostitution will ALWAYS be around because there are people out here in the real world who do not have access to an intimate partner- due to divorce, widowhood, disability, social ineptness etc. There will always be women like me who believe that providing pleasure to others for a fee is a good thing and a good way to achieve parity with men in terms of income. Sex work is the only work in which a woman makes MUCH more than a man.

    It is clear you are not a libertarian. Either it is my body or it isn't. Either I have a right to make choices for myself of which others might not approve or I don't.

    As for the price of prostitutes over the last century- the going rate when I was working as a call girl 25 years ago was $300- 500 an hour, now it is over $1,000 or more. So, I guess the sex workers whom you hire are cheaper?

    Why would you want to take away our right to earn more than you? Ohhh.... I get it- it is because we CAN earn more than you that you wish to 'rescue' us from our evil clients... (sarcasm)

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Man bights dog stories? I'd bet almost all of them either came from broken families or were brainwashed by certain ideologies. In the vast majority of cases, prostitution is done by drug addicted, economically deprived poor people.

    Normajeana, I'm 90% sure you are a troll. How many prostitutes support libertarianism? And who would want to marry a prostitute? And why would a prostitute want to marry him? If you spent years charging beta males for sex why would you suddenly decide to give it away for free?

    a good way to achieve parity with men in terms of income. Sex work is the only work in which a woman makes MUCH more than a man.

    Rather sad. Working women make less than working men for justifiable reasons, but if they made at least a living wage, they wouldn't have to make such calculations.

    It is clear you have not actually read literature on the subject, you only used your own experience. And who has ever relied on the testimony of a prostitute? Average inflation adjusted prices for prostitutes have dramatically decreased from a hundred years ago. You can find very expensive hookers in the upscale areas, but in the vast majority of cases, it is very cheap, certainly not 1000$ an hour.

  • Normajeana||

    You are concerned that my colleagues don't earn as much as I did? Isn't that sweet! I don't think you get that many of us like the work, like the independence, and the financial rewards are nice as well. It was the best job I ever had... If I could still do the work, I would in a NY minute. Unfortunately I inherited many of my mother's ailments such as arthritis - and I also have residual problems from the traffic accidents experienced while working for the LAPD.

    Now you know that I am not a troll. And your other lame argument about men who would want to marry us... well, I have been married to my husband for many, many years. We've been together since I was 24 and still on the LAPD. I am still madly in love with him and he with me. He is disabled now and I am his caregiver, which is an honor and a privilege. He is the most amazing human being I've ever known, for many reasons.

    And what a funny comment that I haven't actually read literature on the subject that has been part of my life for 31 years? Are you completely bonkers? You ought to see my library- books, articles and other documents on this subject. Not only do I lecture at colleges about this subject, but I write articles for law journals and academic journals. You ought to check out some of my articles- here's my most recent one, published last month... http://www.policeprostitutiona.....&Itemid=50

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    If I could still do the work, I would in a NY minute.

    Bet your husband is just happy about that.

    He is disabled now and I am his caregiver, which is an honor and a privilege.

    And I'd bet he "just happens to be disabled."

    If you knew jack about the subject, you would know about the dramatic decrease in price. But you don't. Colleges invite you because they agree with you, not because you know shit.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    You're really flip-flopping now... weren't you questioning her existence a comment ago? Now you're just throwing random sentences together.

  • grey||

    So, Gigg, please tell us more about how much you hate women?

  • grey||

    "I'm not "forcing" these women to be whores in the Black market." Whores huh? I guess we know how you really feel, you don't like their choice so you have the right to act violently against them now?

  • BakedPenguin||

    When you see how the prohibitionist laws are being used to give law enforcement agents the opportunity to extort/ rape/ pimp sex workers, the laws no longer seem 'beneficial' to anyone.

    In addition to this, current laws encourage human trafficking. I suspect the vast majority of 'Johns' have no desire to have sex with slaves. If anything, since the laws make every sex-for-money transaction illegitimate, they strongly discourage informing about actual human rights abuses.

    Ending anti-prostitution laws and revising immigration laws are necessary to end (or greatly diminish) trafficking. That those two things are not on top of the agendas of ostensible anti-trafficking activists means they have other agendas.

  • Ken Shultz||

    I see the same pattern on a lot of different issues.

    I remember when ObamaCare was supposed to help the working poor afford insurance. Somehow it turned into siccing the IRS on the working poor if they failed to buy insurance.

    Gee, thanks for the help!

    That law enforcement's advertised role in this is, ostensibly, to protect sex workers from abuse--only to find that law enforcement ends up facilitating the victimization of the people they're supposed to be protecting? That isn't surprising to me.

    I think that's almost what we expect to see around here.

    Even those of us who don't approve of women selling their bodies, that doesn't mean those who want to do so and choose to do so shouldn't have all the same protection from violence that anyone else functioning outside of a black market enjoys.

    I don't think much of people who charge up the ying yang for payday loan services--but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be legal. They're a hell of a lot better than loan sharks.

    I imagine it's a lot like the drug war. How many fewer violent gang members would there be if it weren't for the drug war? I'm sure there would be fewer violent pimps involved in the sex trade if it were out in the open and legal, too.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    So shoot the cops who do it.(After a fair trial of course) It's as simple as that. You see that certain countries, certain areas, don't have these problems? Why?

  • Robert||

    Hey, Norma Jean A., great seeing you here.

  • Irish||

    This is hilarious and totally related to the issue at hand.

    Mira Sorvino, with an assist from the Dallas Morning News, claims that prostitution is a $500 billion dollar business.

    That's right: Prostitution apparently makes $120 billion dollars more than British Petroleum. She also claims, and the reporter unquestioningly agrees, that a pimp with 5 prostitutes makes $1.5 million dollars a year.

    Do reporters fact check anything anymore?

  • ||

    But Mira Servino said it and she's a celebrity. There's no reason to question it.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Is there anything Celebrities don't know?

  • mr lizard||

    Well pimpin ain't easy... I would hope they make 1.2 mil a year.

  • winston1952||

    The author make very valid points. Not only does it make victims of sex workers but still leaves them with a prostitution arrest on their records. It doesn't help any of the workers and only generates another level of bureaucracy.

    Prostitution has been around forever and will be as well. Many escorts are in the business voluntarily. They pay taxes and contribute to the economy but are forced to live outside of society and at risk of robbery assault rape and murder without recourse to protection under the law.
    Legalizing will allow escorts to contact police when they needed. Now they can't because no matter why they call they are subject to arrest. Just like gambling, and alcohol and other so called vices, when legalized prostitution will be no longer a vehicle of the mob or pimps or gangs.
    To learn more about escorts watch the documentary "AmericanCourtesans" This is a movie where sex workers, their families and customers have a chance at speaking unscripted. It is powerful and fascinating and has been shown in film festivals all over the world including the ECU festival in Paris and Women's International festival in
    Miami and won awards for best editing and best documentary.

    'American Courtesans' is available on-demand in over 100 million homes across the US and Canada -- including on some of the largest cable systems in the country - Comcast, Time Warner, Cox, Brighthouse and iTunes and available on DVD and BluRay on www.americancourtesans.com, amazon, and ebay.

  • Flast||

    I agree prostitution should be legalized, but why the PC terminology? Calling these whores "sex workers" is offensive to workers everywhere. Just because you get paid, doesn't make you a worker. Would we call "workers?"

  • Troy muy grande boner||

    Oh, its work all right. Imagine if you had to fuck Sugarfree or Warty. Jesus, just being in the same room as Epi is insufferable. And once he opens his piehole, I'd charge him double.

  • ||

    Gives new meaning to the old saw "men don't pay prostitutes for the sex; they pay them so they don't have talk with them afterward".

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Considering libertarians think sitting on their asses and watching their bank account grow is "work" it isn't a big leap before they consider selling your bodies to be "work."

  • johnl||

    The word whore is ruined because it gets applied to lawyers and PR people.

  • analog2000||

    Just because you get paid, doesn't make you a worker.

    So what does it make you? People who work in the auto industry are auto workers, people who work in the health care industry are health care workers, people who work in fast food are fast food workers, etc. People who work in the sex industry are sex workers. If you agree that prostitution should be legalized, why do you not think it is "work?"

    Is it not work because some parts of the sex industry are illegal? So we will call prostitutes "whores" until prostitution is legal, then they can be "sex workers?"

  • Flast||

    The guy who busts his ass at a construction site is a worker. The guy who stands on the side of the road begging for money is not, despite being legal and getting money. I think prostitution should be legal, but don't try and tell me to respect it as if it is actual work. That is disrespectful to workers everywhere.

  • Normajeana||

    Perhaps you think then that actors and actresses aren't workers either? Because, gee, it looks like so much fun that it is a crime to call it 'work...' how about musicians? Not work, of course. Nor could we call it work for those who write for a living, or who are artists... how dare they view what they do as having any value as 'work'?

    Quite frankly your respect for me or my work isn't anything that has value to me, but that prostitutes throughout history have been providing for their families even when non prostitute women were only considered property of their husbands, means that it actually is work, regardless of whether or not your mind is incapable of grasping that.

  • mtrueman||

    Doesn't sex worker apply to pimps, as well? Doesn't most of what is said here of prostitutes apply equally to pimps?

  • Normajeana||

    Given that most 'pimps' are family members or our landlords or the bank- according to the definition of 'pimp' then, no, it doesn't necessarily apply. The law says that a pimp is 'anyone who lives off the earnings of a prostitute in full or in part...' meaning that after I left the LAPD and became a call girl, and I continued to make my car payments to the police credit union, notifying them on the outside of the envelope containing my check that the enclosed money came from my sex work, they were legally my pimp. Does that make them sex workers? Now, on the other hand, there are a number of cops who pimp prostitutes- like NYPD Detective Wayne Taylor, who was pimping a 13 year old girl- telling her that he bought her for $500 and that if she didn't entertain the men he brought to see her, he would arrest her for prostitution... and like California State Drug Agent Norm Wielsch, who was running a brothel in northern California and robbed and arrested the prostitutes who were competing with his brothel.... I guess that would make THEM sex worker cops.... www.policeprostitutionandpolit.....p_2013.pdf

  • mtrueman||

    I agree about the cops, but I don't think that a bank is acting as a pimp when it takes money off a prostitute even though s/he has written it on the back of an envelope.

    Isn't the correct legal terminology 'living off the proceeds of prostitution?' The bank is living off the proceeds of their lending you money. The corner shop the prostitute visits is living off the proceeds of selling gum and cigarettes etc. That's not pimping, and no court would consider it so.

  • Normajeana||

    The penal code 266 h- in California says: "any person who, knowing another person is a prostitute, lives or derives support or maintenance in whole or in part from the earnings or proceeds of the person's prostitution..."
    So, yes, when Norma Jean Almodovar goes on national television and confesses to being a prostitute, and then sends money she earned from prostitution to make her car payment to the police credit union, the law does apply to them.

    Obviously they are not going to arrest themselves, but cops frequently use the law to force a prostitute to give them a free sample. ("if you don't give me a free sample, I am going to charge your landlord with pimping" etc. etc.)

    You see, when the cops used the PANDERING law against ME in an attempt to stop me from writing a book about the police corruption I witnessed on the LAPD when I worked for them for 10 years, I researched this issue in great detail. How they could have sent me to prison because I "was commercially exploiting my law enforcement past to draw on scandalous escapades which undermine respect for the law" is beyond me. A clear violation of my first amendment rights, but they succeeded. See the interview with Mr. Bradley during my incarceration:
    http://www.policeprostitutiona.....om/videos/

  • mtrueman||

    Regardless of what California law says, we both know that there is more to pimping than simply taking money from a prostitute.

    I admire your courage in using your real name here. At times I try to promote this among commenters here, and they all continue to hide behind pseudonyms. You've noticed all the bluster and insults here? It's almost certain to come from people hiding behind pseudonyms. You are a writer, Norma, and taking what you write seriously is second nature to you. I take what I write seriously and that's why I use my real name. Didn't mean to get side-tracked, but honest and open discussion, especially in places where it is permitted, is one of my hobby-horses.

  • johnl||

    Except that most "pimps" who are prosecuted are just male family members of a whore.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Also the concept itself of a pimp law is unnecessary. We already have other laws: kidnapping, unlawful imprisonment, assault, rape, theft, blackmail...

    Technically, if a whore cupcakes and gives them as gifts, the people receiving them are guilty of pimping.

  • Normajeana||

    Are you aware that the word "whore" originally meant simply "beloved one"? So, thanks for recognizing our belovedness. You are so sweet...:-)
    And it isn't because the term 'sex worker' is politically correct that we sex workers use it. I would prefer the term "sex care provider" as that is much more descriptive of what we do. And actually, it is work.
    What is offensive is people like you thinking that what we do isn't work. Perhaps athletes aren't working - but rather, playing games. Not work.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    It's because the left-wing puritan feminist don't believe it's a real job. They can't conceive that a whore might make a lot of money doing this, and that that can motivate people to work; they only see them as victims.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    How many of you would want your daughters to do this? None of you. But you defend it when it happens to other people's daughters. Why? Most normal people would, upon seeing prostitution, fell a profound sense of compassion for the women, and anger at the men who exploit them. These women are almost invariably victims of family breakdown, extremely low intelligence or dire economic straights. After all, how many daughters of stable, college educated families "choose" prostitution? But libertarians look upon prostitution and feel nothing, their tiny hearts are more concerned with capitalists having to pay 15% of their income to the government. What causes such a thing? I think it is a result of a dehumanizing ideology, the same type that led to Nazis to systematically murder 6 million Jews and think nothing of it. They did not view the Jews as human. Similarly, libertarians don't view anyone who is not intelligent or not wealthy as human. Most libertarians draw the line at mass murder, but when these women are fifty years old and dying of AIDS, the libertarian will subject them to a moralistic lecture about economic theory. I wish all of you would just pack up your bags and leave my America, stop trying to turn it into a third world hellhole.

  • JD the elder||

    This is a troll, right? I mean, my trollometer has been badly warped through exposure to Daily Kos and Mother Jones, but still, the Nazi comparison and all...

    Anyway, prostitution is legal in Germany, Israel, and Australia, to name just a few "third world hellholes" that seem to be managing it better than us.

  • Ken Shultz||

    The Netherlands, France, Nevada...

  • Ken Shultz||

    Apparently some idiot right wing site somewhere has linked this story. Check out the guy with the toothbrush mustache below. The average IQ in this room just dropped by 50 points, at least.

  • BART!||

    Just because I disagree with you that makes me Hitler?

  • Ken Shultz||

    Did you notice I accused you of making the average IQ in the room drop by 50 points?

    But you don't even care about that; you just want to talk about Hitler.

  • Irish||

    He also starts his paragraph with "I think the Jews are a big part of this."

    How could you get to Hitler from that, Ken? It's so innocuous!

  • BART!||

    I think the Jews are a big part of this. Libertarianism, like other shades of Marxism, has always been a very Jewish movement. Many Jews(though by no means all of them) hate gentile Whites, and this hatred fuels their support of Marxism. They support legalizing prostitution because they love to see gentiles being whores(fun Jew fact, the Yiddish word "shiksha" comes from the Hebrew word "abomination"). They would never consider that Jewish girls would participate in prostitution. They consider it only something for the goy and the schvartze. Their religion has been dehumanizing people for thousands of years, and now they are doing the same thing to the White race.

  • johnl||

    This is such an awesome piece of racist trolling that it might get censored.

  • Mock-star||

    A++

    Thats some damn fine trolling.

  • Troy muy grande boner||

    [Look at nose from the side].... Holy shit, he is right. I am jewish and I didn't even know it. OK.... who here owes me some money?

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Would it be *truly* tasteless to post the Larry David Palestinian Chicken video here?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NeqZOce1fE

  • Ken Shultz||

    Will there ever be a tasteful time to post the Larry David Palestinian Chicken video?

  • Kyfho Myoba||

    I'd much, much rather my daughter engage in honest commerce, even of the sexual variety than work for the state in any capacity.

    And where do you get off equating Libertarianism with Marxism?!?!?! Are you high? Lobotomized? Libertarianism is NOT "a very Jewish movement". Maybe the Rand-roid Objectivists, but certainly not LP.

  • Normajeana||

    I've been a libertarian for at least 37 years, not jewish, not male, am a whore, loved being a whore- a much better job than working for the LAPD where I spent 10 long miserable years being exploited by Daryl Gates.
    Oh- and been happily married to the most amazing man in the world, been together for 38 years in February 2014. A psychiatrist for the LAPD described my intelligence as 'grossly above average' which explains why I was not able to tolerate working for such a corrupt organization. So becoming a prostitute was a major career step UP.

  • johnl||

    Lots of college educated women become sex workers. Being able to make good conversation means being able to charge more. You might want to read what whores say about themselves before spinning up these far fetched comparisons.

  • Pinky||

    I wouldn't want my daughter working in the sex industry. But if circumstances were such that she determined to work in the industry I sure don't want the likes of you bearing down upon her. Lets make this clear, my daughter isn't any of your fucking business.

  • Pinky||

    Intended as a reply to gigfvvvkf's post. Oh well

  • Irish||

    You mean that you wouldn't prefer to have your daughter thrown in a jail cell where she can be abused by other prisoners or possibly the guards?

    What kind of a mother* are you? Don't you know that the best way to teach your daughter important lessons is with a 3-5 year sentence?

    *I'm not sure you're a woman but...your name's pinky. I played the odds.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    And of course it goes right over the head of the libertarian.

  • Normajeana||

    You really must have a difficult time comprehending this conversation, if something goes over the head of 'the libertarian'... reading your comments and assessment of the men, women and trans-persons who choose to work in this profession, I would imagine you are way, way down on the scale of intelligence... possibly not even caveman smart. Economic 'straights'.... REALLY????? What does it say about you when even a whore like me knows the word should be 'straits' not 'straights'....

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Almost certainly a troll. An aspie, a whore, a female, a libertarian, an ex-cop, with a very high IQ, who talks about "trans" "people." Totally not a troll.

    If libertarians are going to talk about IQ then discuss the elephant in the room when it comes to IQ. On the SAT I scored a 1510. Do you know the average score for that certain group?

  • Normajeana||

    Not a trans, but definitely a female and always been one, definitely libertarian, worked for the LAPD for 10 years (1972- 1982) and not a troll either. If you'd like, I can refer you to the psychiatrist who made that statement about me... although after all these years, he may no longer be in business. After all, that was many years ago when I was in my 20s... turned 62 this year.

    Aren't you just special, scoring high on your SAT... so how come you don't know the difference between "Economic straits" and YOUR 'Economic Straights'? They didn't teach you proper use of language wherever it is you went to school?

    I don't hide behind anything, you can google my name- Norma Jean Almodovar- and find all about me- never been a male in my life- am one of fourteen children- 6 females and 8 males, I was the first daughter... You can even watch me on a number of talkshows on youtube.com/normajeanalmo1 and on "60 Minutes" when I was incarcerated for writing a book about police corruption: http://www.policeprostitutiona.....om/videos/

    I bet you aren't anywhere close to being an elephant in any room! A gnat, perhaps, but elephant? Not with your comprehension level!

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    I admit I didn't bother to google your name before I wrote that. So I guess you are a real person. It is telling that you have a Wikipedia page and I don't. You really aren't very different from the progs.

    Typos are proof you have low intelligence? Intelligence doesn't really work that way. Reading comprehension is a much better measure. You evidently fail at it. You failed to see the obvious sarcasm in Pinky's post and you didn't understand what elephant in the room I was referring to was. Think about it, what group has a certain score on the SAT you always hear about?

  • Normajeana||

    Yours wasn't a 'typo," it was a complete misuse of words. A typo is when someone hits the wrong key and a word is misspelled. As for reading, dear heart, I have read more books, articles, statistics etc. than you even know exist.

    You claim, without knowing a single prostitute, that being a prostitute is some sort of proof of low intelligence, so certainly I am equally entitled to claim that your inability to discern what is the correct word for your comment, indicates that you are not nearly as smart as you think you are.

    As for the Wikipedia page- I had nothing to do with that. One day they contacted me and told me they were posting a page about me and if I wanted to proof read it, to let them know if there were errors.

    I did get your lame attempt at sarcasm, but since you failed miserably in your quest to be funny, I did not want you to think that you had succeeded in any way at being funny or cute.

    So, while you lambast libertarians for being elitist intellectuals who don't want to share their wealth, you feel it is appropriate to boast about your SAT score? Nice.

    Still waiting to hear how many of my colleagues you have ever met.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    So, while you lambast libertarians for being elitist intellectuals who don't want to share their wealth, you feel it is appropriate to boast about your SAT score? Nice.

    But you started it! I actually never used the word "elitist." I simply stated the fact that most libertarians are out of touch and ignorant of the working class, thinking that they are just like them. That doesn't mean I don't think I'm smarter than everyone.

  • Normajeana||

    Actually, you started it. Re-read some of your comments about libertarians. You may not have used the word "elitist' but that's exactly what you implied.

    Having been born in a very large family with very little money, I had to work all through high school in order to afford clothes (and not the latest fashion, either), books, etc. In fact, I started working at age 13 as a waitress. I continued to waitress until my senior year and was hoping to attend Philadelphia College of the Bible, because I had planned to become a missionary until I realized I was an atheist.

    I think I more than qualify as belonging to the working class. So your elitist attitude toward libertarians is completely unjustified. You show your ignorance about everything the more you try to justify your position against sex work and against libertarian philosophy. You really do not have a clue about much of anything, do you?

    And it is abundantly clear that you aren't smarter than anyone. And you certainly aren't smarter than 99% of the whores I know. Have you mentioned yet how many prostitutes you know? Because it seems to me that you do not know any.

    Since I can prove how many I know- having been in the sex worker rights movement for 31 years, organizing an international conference with a university, running an international prostitutes' rights organization, I'd like to know how many YOU know. Put up or shut up, you phony poser.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    I think I more than qualify as belonging to the working class. So your elitist attitude toward libertarians is completely unjustified.

    The exception that proves the rule?

    I knew several.

  • Irish||

    Typos are proof you have low intelligence? Intelligence doesn't really work that way. Reading comprehension is a much better measure. You evidently fail at it. You failed to see the obvious sarcasm in Pinky's post and you didn't understand what elephant in the room I was referring to was. Think about it, what group has a certain score on the SAT you always hear about?

    That's because Pinky's post was not sarcastic, American.

    Intelligence doesn't really work that way.

    We know, American. Intelligence is something encoded into your genes that the noble white and Asian man possess while the obstreperous negro sits in the gutter sipping malt liquor and killing the few brain cells he has after generations of downward evolution in the African savanna. Just say what you mean.

    If you're going to pretend you're a new character, you really have to make it less obvious that it's you, you racist, sexist punk.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Awesome spoof!

  • Irish||

    What possible reason could you have for thinking that's a spoof? Any rational person would want someone like you staying away from their daughter.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Obviously the comment is a spoof of libertarian insults. I am a horrible human being who should stay away from his daughter, yet his daughter is a prostitute, so he can't really say that. My daughter isn't any of your fucking business yet, if she is a prostitute, she is entirely my fucking business, she is entirely disempowered. In saying how horrible I am, he is invalidating his own ideology. The fact that that sarcasm went right over your head tells me a lot about you and what motivates your ideology.

  • Irish||

    There was no sarcasm. You're literally incapable of understanding someone who thinks you should keep your hands to yourself and so, like all true fascists, you claim that anyone who wants you to leave them alone is joking, oppressed, or mistaken.

    No. Myself and most people would really just like a slimy little toad like you to leave us alone.

  • Normajeana||

    People like this individual just don't get the concept of liberty. They cannot see beyond their own desire to be a dictator and control the lives of everyone around them. They like making victims out of people whom they know nothing about. Makes them feel good about themselves. Talk about being disempowered- when the government can take away my children (if I had them) because the government thinks that I am making bad choices for myself in wanting to earn more than I could earn scrubbing floors or flipping burgers, being tossed into jail where I will most likely be raped by the guards (and when I was incarcerated, I WAS sexually assaulted by a corrections officer...) THAT is being disempowered. Providing pleasure to others for a very nice fee does NOT disempower women.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    I've seen these issues myself, unlike libertarians who literally have never known anyone who didn't have a college degree(or was the child of someone who did). Norm is a troll, and the vast majority of women who are prostitutes are nothing the character (s)he created.

    I say absolutely take away the children of whores.

    Capitalism is all about disembowelment. Those who do not control the capital must do something to get it or starve. Gold is power. Norm's character seems to think that if she isn't selling herself, she will be flipping burgers for minimum wage. That is why making sure American workers have a living wage is so important.

  • Normajeana||

    gjggvfrdfgvfnbj- "Norm"???? are you suggesting that I am a male? Wow- you really do have a problem with women! You can't accept that a prostitute can be highly educated, have a life and family and not need YOUR kind to rescue me?

    I suggest you do some research- I am easy enough to find... I wrote a book called "Cop to Call Girl- Why I Left the LAPD to Make an Honest Living as a Beverly Hills Prostitute." Or search for me by my last name- Almodovar, first name Norma Jean. What a patronizing fool you are to make such a claim about me. I spent 10 years working as a traffic cop in Hollywood- at night, without a partner or a gun (I was a traffic cop, before women were hired to be police officers, back in the 1970s to 1982.)

    It isn't ME who thinks that if I weren't selling myself, I'd be flipping hamburgers for minimum wage. It is YOU who believes that if a woman chooses to provide pleasure to others for a significant fee, she must be of low intelligence, financially desperate etc. which means, by your standard, that we would not be able to find any other type of work that you would find more suitable for our station in life. You are a bigot and are afraid of women.

  • Normajeana||

    gjggvfrdfgvfnbj, It must be terribly difficult for men like you who have no other way to deal with female sexuality than to infantilize us so that we aren't quite as threatening to you. By turning us into helpless, disempowered victims, you defuse our power over you and that allows you to be able to cope with us.

    IF a prostitute was imbued with all the stereotypical negative traits as you suggest we are, why would you want to take away the only option we had, given our feeble minds, where we could earn enough money to take care of our families? Do you resent that women without an education could earn so much more than you? Do you think that we ought to learn our place and take work as domestic servants earning minimum wage or less? Because surely if we are of 'low intelligence' what other type of work could we expect to find?

    In your opinion, would that be more 'empowering' for us and would it make you feel better about your ugly bigotry toward prostitutes if we were so economically desperate that we had to clean up the urine, feces and vomit of strangers, rather than earn more money in an hour than a domestic servant can earn in a day (or in many cases, more than they earn in a week), merely by exploiting men's biological urges?

    Do you believe that it would be better for us poor, illiterate whores to go on welfare or to take work which is more 'appropriate' to our station in life, than to earn (at the low end) $50 for a BJ, or (at the high end) $5,000 per date?

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Let me guess, you are "not a feminist," right?

    Actually I was too lazy to write out "Normajeana." Your posts screamed out "troll" but I guess the truth can be stranger than fiction.

    the government thinks that I am making bad choices for myself in wanting to earn more than I could earn scrubbing floors or flipping burgers

    Your words.

    I don't argue with feminist arguments like yours, which are based on unfalsafiable ad hominum attacks. What of the women who think prostitution is wrong?

    IF a prostitute was imbued with all the stereotypical negative traits as you suggest we are, why would you want to take away the only option we had, given our feeble minds, where we could earn enough money to take care of our families?

    You really are bad at reading comprehension. I want to do something about that by assuring that all Americans receive a living wage above minimum wage, rather than just telling them to suck a dick for a living. And, all things being equal, working men do jobs that are much more degrading and dirty than working women. That's one of the reasons they are payed more.

    You are a cultural marxist who is a whore for the reason of your cultural marxism. 99% of prostitutes are not. I know I am such an evil person for telling you to work for a living.

  • Normajeana||

    Please do tell me how many prostitutes you actually know- and where on earth do you get the lame idea that I am a 'cultural marxist'? I am plain and simply a libertarian who believes that my body belongs to me. NOT to the state, not to some invisible guy in the sky... but to me. I believe that the money I earn as a prostitute is mine. Not yours, not anyone else's. Did I pay taxes anyway? Indeed I did. So the government was my pimp.

    Perhaps you ought to be out there rescuing those poor men who are doing those dirty and degrading jobs. Because WE don't need your help. You lack any moral values if you believe that it is more important to stop adult women from making choices for their own lives than it is to stop police corruption. If you have ANY intelligence whatsoever, you will know from history that prohibition of ANY vices ALWAYS results in corruption- not just of those who enforce the laws, but of the entire justice system. If that doesn't bother you, then as I said, you are far more immoral than the worst of the corrupt cops.

  • Irish||

    Please do tell me how many prostitutes you actually know- and where on earth do you get the lame idea that I am a 'cultural marxist'?

    To the drooling social conservative, cultural marxist means 'anyone upset that I throw them in a cage when they do something that displeases me.'

    Don't take it too hard. I think this guy is actually just a troll we have that comes around who used to call himself 'American.' I wasn't sure at first, but American's a racist who is always talking about how American workers (by which he means white people) need a living wage. He also loves explaining how women are the property of their men and whenever issues about sex come up will say things like 'WHAT IF THIS WERE A WOMAN IN YOUR FAMILY!?'

    He's pretty much hit all the markers at this pint, so I assume it's American.

    I remember one time I was mocking a sexual panic about how all the American girls are now selling themselves into sexual slavery via Facebook, and American flew into a rage over the fact that I dared claim that it's sexist to treat women like delicate flowers while ignoring the men who are involved in a situation. He honestly believes that men are natural sexual predators and that women must be defended by noble white knights like himself.

    He's just that kind of guy.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    So what are your cultural views? Let me guess, you never gave it a thought? Cultural marxism is just natural like that.

    You lack any moral values if you believe that it is more important to stop adult women from making choices for their own lives than it is to stop police corruption

    There you go again with the false choices.

    If you have ANY intelligence whatsoever, you will know from history that prohibition of ANY vices ALWAYS results in corruption- not just of those who enforce the laws, but of the entire justice system

    Murder is a vice.

  • Irish||

    You should really define 'cultural marxism' since you don't seem to know what it means. Cultural marxism is founded largely on the belief that capitalism is an oppressive force, which libertarians would disagree with.

    Since you're one of those "Socialism but only for the white man" types, you're actually closer to being a cultural Marxist on that front than we are.

    If you asked most people here what they thought of the Frankfurt school, which is essentially where cultural Marxism originated, you'd hear some pretty nasty things.

    Cultural Marxism also tends to take the form of unthinking and Orwellian political correctness, which everyone here is opposed to.

    You should really learn the meaning of the words you sling around before using them, American.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

  • Normajeana||

    Murder is a crime, not a vice. Wow- from what planet did you arrive?

  • analog2000||

    fell a profound sense of compassion for the women, and anger at the men who exploit them.

    What about male prostitues? Don't they exist? How come they always get left out of the discussion? Oh, yeah, because they mess up your neat little narrative of powerless women and evil men.

    Let's say your daughter (or mine) were a prostitute. You really think the best thing for her would be jail time? How does that help anything? If she is such a helpless victim, how is putting her in prison the moral thing to do?

    As for HIV/AIDS, you really think making something illegal makes it safer? How does that make sense?

  • sticks||

    How many people want their daughters to be gas station clerks?

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Not everyone expects their children to go to college and make 60,000$ a year. For a lot of people, a job like that is the best they can reasonably expect. But libertarians are notoriously out of touch with working-class Americans.

  • Normajeana||

    So, would you want your daughter to have to clean toilets for a living- for minimum wage or less? You really are a piece of work. I was going to say a piece of bovine excrement, but I don't want to insult bulls.

    Your assessment of us shows your complete ignorance of who we are. Try searching for sex worker rights groups online. Read our blogs- our published articles... Your asinine generalization of us as 'victims of family breakdown, extremely low intelligence or dire economic STRAITS (not "straights..." different word entirely...) is insulting, offensive, patronizing and condescending.

    There are many college educated among us- many of us have degrees and choose sex work because it enables us to fund our education, our other pursuits such as writing, sculpting, film making etc.

    Because of people like you, the police feel empowered to rape us, extort us, pimp us etc. And YOU DO NOT CARE that this is the result of your 'concern' for our well being. I would rather be a sex object and get paid $500 an hour than be a 'victim object' which is what YOUR philosophy does to us.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    I already stated that I support a living wage. A false choice.

    All the pro-prostitute* groups are mostly upscale libtards who know nothing of what working people go through every day. They do not represent 99% of real prostitutes. They are simply cultural marxists who take their glorification of sluttines to its logical extreme.

    *A prostitute is not a worker anymore than a panhandler is a worker or a thief is a worker. Workers earn their money.

    I already said those cops should be shot, and I already addressed that that doesn't happen in certain places. Why is you having been sexually assaulted such a big deal if you are a prostitute? After all, if you are gonna give it away for money, the worst it can be described as is a client refusing to pay.

    But I agree it is not enough to ban prostitution. We need to tackle these problems of poverty, family breakdown, and dysgenia.

  • JD the elder||

    Has anything that gjggvfrdfgvfnbj has said in this topic NOT been an ad hominem attack?

    "Why is you having been sexually assaulted such a big deal if you are a prostitute?"

    So, either troll mas grande, or incredibly vile person.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    How the hell is that an ad hominem attack?

  • Irish||

    *A prostitute is not a worker anymore than a panhandler is a worker or a thief is a worker. Workers earn their money.

    Saying that prostitutes don't earn their money.

    All the pro-prostitute* groups are mostly upscale libtards who know nothing of what working people go through every day.

    Calling them libtards while offering no evidence of your assertion.

    Why is you having been sexually assaulted such a big deal if you are a prostitute? After all, if you are gonna give it away for money, the worst it can be described as is a client refusing to pay.

    Arguing that prostitutes should stop whining about being raped.

    These statements are so vile that they don't even aspire to the noble heights of ad hominem attacks. Their more like the droppings of an infant.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Calling them libtards while offering no evidence of your assertion.

    Yeah, I'd bet there are many conservatives among these prostitutes.

    /sarc

  • Normajeana||

    Please tell me again how many prostitutes you actually know? Because in my 31 years as an activist and a sex worker, I've met and personally know THOUSANDS... and YES, they represent REAL prostitutes. And, as the founder of ISWFACE, a prostitutes' rights group I am definitely NOT an upscale libtard... and having worked on the LAPD for ten years before turning HONEST, I certainly DO know what working people go through every day. And I know that you are so full of yourself you haven't a clue what the truth about us really is.

    Why would you want to ban work that gives us more money than someone who had comparable education? Why are you afraid of women who can out earn you?

    Where is it that cops raping prostitutes DOESN'T happen? How many cops raping prostitutes are too many for you? How many cops raping CHILDREN are too many for you? TRUE STORIES OF RAPIST/PEDOPHILE COPS OUT OF CONTROL AND THE JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT FAILS THE VICTIMS

  • Normajeana||

    "Why is you having been sexually assaulted such a big deal if you are a prostitute? After all, if you are gonna give it away for money, the worst it can be described as is a client refusing to pay"

    Okay- why is robbing a bank a big deal since banks are in the business of giving money away? Is it because the bank did not agree to have their money taken from them against their will?

    Beside, one isn't "GIVING IT AWAY" if one is being paid and ONLY if an agreement is reached before that both parties agree to.

    You do know that raping one's spouse is now a crime... even though the wife supposedly agreed to submit to her husband any time he wants it- because he is supporting her and her children... or do you consider domestic rape a crime?

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Why are you afraid of women who can out earn you?

    Because I get so mad at female CEOs. (/sarc) But it is true that that is probably the only way these prostitutes could out-earn me. And because I'm not a communist, I see nothing wrong with that.

    Where is it that cops raping prostitutes DOESN'T happen?

    Same as the place where murder doesn't happen. Heaven. But that doesn't mean some places don't have murder rates hundreds of times those of other places. Some places do. Ask yourself why.

    You make a good point. It is more akin to theft that to rape. If you care about real rape, you ought to look at the demographic who is committing a very disproportionate number of the rapes. I think domestic rape should be a crime, but I don't see it as morally equivalent to real rape for that reason.

  • Normajeana||

    Still waiting to hear how many prostitutes you actually know... or have met personally. If you have never MET one of us, you are a poser. You have NO credibility upon which to base your absurd claims about us. More likely than not, you HAVE met a few prostitutes- those you have hired to service your hypocritical a.s. Because in my 62 years, I have observed that those who are most vocal in expressing their negative views on prostitution are the ones who are using our services. Like Eliot Spitzer and David Vitter. The louder you shout about us poor whores, the more likely it is you are trying to avoid being exposed as a whoremonger. And you should look up Top ICE Agent Anthony Mangione- crusader against child porn- arrested and sentenced to 5 years in prison for--- POSSESSING CHILD PORNOGRAPHY.
    Hypocrites all of you.

    First of all, there is no heaven. You are delusional to think there is. What does the murder rate have to do with anything? Here's the FBI statistics on the murder of prostitutes vs. the murder of cops, children murdered by their babysitters etc. from 1991 to 2011:
    Prostitute Deaths 1991- 2011: 226
    Law Enforcement Homicides 1991- 2011: 1,255
    Children Killed by Babysitters 1991- 2011: 646
    Persons murdered during a rape 1991- 2011: 1,239
    Persons murdered involved in a romantic triangle 1991- 2011: 3,678

    Being a cop is much more dangerous than being a prostitute... at least according to the FBI statisitcs.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    I suppose all these people here who have never met a hooker are also "posers," amiright? And a prostitute lecturing me on morality, priceless.

  • Normajeana||

    Ah- so you admit that you do not know a single prostitute- that all your championing of us is based on your clueless non-knowledge of people you have never met? And yes, all the people who attempt to pass laws against activities of people they do not know because of their baseless opinion of what we are like, ARE indeed posers, phonies, hypocrites and most of all, bigots. "All these people here" are not claiming that prostitutes are all of low intelligence, or that we are in "economic straights..." and forced into prostitution- nor are they trying to take away my freedom, or the freedom of those who know what I am worth and pay me accordingly. YOU on the other hand, make rash generalizations of people about whom you do not know anything whatsoever. And based on your uninformed opinions of us, you are willing to take away our children, call us whores (which by the way, we don't mind at all because a whore is a beloved one...) when we don't submit to your insistence that we are wretched creatures who need saving... you can't stand the thought that a WHORE could be a libertarian, intelligent, independent, happily married, non drug addicted (because I've never even tried drugs - too vain to do so), with many skills and options that far outnumber your limited imagination. It is too much for your feeble brain to process.

  • Irish||

    And a prostitute lecturing me on morality, priceless.

    Well, the prostitute doesn't use government force to throw people whose lifestyles she disagrees with into prison.

    So yes, she is more moral than you.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Haven't you ever heard of human capital?
    Or, for that matter, social mobility? Because whores have those, in spades.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Hello, STATIST!

  • Hillary's Clitdong||

    My daughter isn't any of your fucking business yet, if she is a prostitute, she is entirely my fucking business, she is entirely disempowered.

    Or if she's an upscale hooker, then she could, like a lot of high-priced service workers, refuse you as a client. And her business is her business. There's no consistent reason that the government should forbid women from working in prostitution but allow them to work in far more grotesque and morally degrading tasks, like White House Press Secretary or gjggvfrdfgvfnbj's wife.

  • Normajeana||

    What do you want to bet that gjggvfrdfgvfnbj is okay with raping his wife? After all, when she married him she agreed to allow him to take her any time he wanted, because he is supporting her and their children... So having him take her by force should be no big deal to her. And of course, he is permitted to beat his wife too, under the apparently religious viewpoint from which he seems to be coming. But he sounds so confused- I can't figure out if he is a liberal with his liberal guilt or if he is a religious conservative who has no concept of what 'less government' really means. Either way, I would bet that he has never met a sex worker in his life, so it is fascinating that he feels that he can claim that 99% of my colleagues whom he does not know and never met are NOT like me. But I am sure he READ about us in the paper- or perhaps they discussed us whores at his church group... so of course, his perception of us is quite accurate! NOT!

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    I don't believe in God. I am a conservative. I've known prostitutes myself. They were miserable people, not like you in any way. They were poor, unintelligent, and ashamed of what they had to do. One of them seemed happy with it, but she was very messed up mentally. They were all Mexicans. I grew up around immigrant Mexicans. That is what fueled my conservatism.

  • Normajeana||

    Ever been to a battered women's shelter? Not going to find very many happily married women there... miserable women- hating marriage and their husbands.... mentally messed up, physically abused. If you never met a woman who was in love with her husband, had never been abused, who was happy and well adjusted, you might think that all marriages were like those of the hapless creatures in the shelters.

    Same thing for prostitutes. You met prostitutes who were like the victims of abusive husbands. But anyone with half a brain would know that generalizing about a small group of people when there are SO MANY OTHER happily married women out here- and sex workers who are NOT battered women- is not only illogical, but actually quite stupid.

    And BTW- I would take the morality of a prostitute over yours any day. You can't make up your mind if you want to save us for being helpless children or slap our faces for not conforming to your idea of what woman should be. Gotta go now, I have a life. It's time to cook dinner and then hang out with my beloved husband. You sad, pathetic human being. You wouldn't know what morality was if it bit you on your face.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Yes I have indeed been to a battered women's shelter. Long story short, I grew knew some pretty messed up people when I was young.

    All societies have put some constraints on expression of greed and lust. Our society is the first that has been able to afford to abolish them. And it has caused a great amount of suffering and conflict, mostly among the working class. I ask why. I ask what is so great about it? I think a good compromise would be to allow you to do your own thing, but restrict you to a certain state, let's call it Sodom, that the rest of America can isolate itself from.

    And what do you have against the English language? Everyone else, even liberals, would regard a prostitute lecturing me on morality to be immensely hypocritical. Whatever you consider morality, is very different from what it has always meant. Redefining words is a classic cultural Marxist tactic.

  • gjggvfrdfgvfnbj||

    Long story short, I grew knew some pretty messed up people when I was young.

    Fixed.

  • Normajeana||

    In days before the judeo-christian religions, prostitutes were revered and honored- not scorned. It is not we who redefine morality, but the religions which came along thousands of years after the goddess religions. No, I am not a pagan nor do I practice any religion. I am an atheist, pure and simple.

    An honest whore is far more moral than a dishonest conservative. Just like christians want to redefine marriage to mean what their religious beliefs claim it NOW means, marriage three millennia ago was an entirely different relationship before the abrahamic religions destroyed the pagan/goddess religions and murdered its practitioners. Or perhaps you don't count anything that came before whatever nonsense you claim to believe in. And you certainly don't seem to have a grasp of history.

    Now, I would bet that you and others like you believe that being a law enforcement officer is a 'moral' profession, and that officers are mentally stable... but if, after viewing the long and horrific list of pedophile cops- cops who get probation after raping three year old girls- twice, you still believe that IT is moral but honest whoredom is not, well, sir, your claim of morality is certainly on shaky ground- more like quicksand.

    http://www.policeprostitutiona.....&Itemid=50

  • Normajeana||

    And this: http://www.policeprostitutiona.....&Itemid=50

    Please tell me why you think being an honest whore is immoral, but remaining in a job where you know that your colleagues are committing serious crimes- raping children, adult women, robbing, murdering- would be moral? If a person knows those crimes are being committed by those with badges and remains there, one must look the other way or be punished or killed. So if remaining there would have made me moral in your eyes, you can understand why I would think you an immoral moron, right? That said, of course not all cops are corrupt. Unfortunately, many are stuck in their jobs because they have families and pensions and mortgages to think about, and if they leave, they lose much of their investment. If they stay, they contribute to the corruption which seems to be condoned by people like you who have your collective heads rammed up your posteriors, as you prefer the dishonesty and immoral consequences of unenforceable laws to allowing adults to do with their lives, bodies and money as they see fit.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    You do realize whores have high social mobility right? They can move from the bottom 20% to the top 20% wealth earners very quickly. So trying to create a false dichotomy between poor and rich whores doesn't work (and is a typical left-wing class warrior tactic)

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Your throwing around the term "cultural marxist" might work in the echo chamber you live in but not here. The only people who warp morality to mean what they want to are the deeply religious.
    Libertarianism is based in part on Natural Law which is based in morality.
    The morality of consent.
    From this standpoint it is you who are engaging in moral relativism, especially as prostitution is more stigmatized now than it was in the middle ages.

  • montana mike||

    I guess this went over some people's heads.

    I knew a young lady a couple years ago that used the "business" to pay the bills while putting her significant other through grad school, she wasn't coerced nor was I. I enjoyed her company and she approved of our business transaction, it worked out ok for her as she was recently wedded and I consider her a friend. Coercion free, fuck off state.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    There is a big difference between a sex worker who wants to be a sex worker and someone who doesn't, hates her jobs and only does it for the money.
    What would you do if every sex worker who didn't like her job became a small business owner instead but complained about how horrible it was, since they're only doing it for the money. Would you be talking about using state violence to ban small business ownership (other than franchises)?

  • Normajeana||

    gjggvfrdfgvfnbj, People who encourage police corruption through their desire to use the brute force of government to impose their so called moral values on others- without knowing of or caring about the immoral consequences- can make no claim to possess moral values. It is the antithesis of morality to provide law enforcement agents with laws which must, by their very nature, be selectively and arbitrarily enforced and which have historically and inevitably resulted in the corruption of both law enforcement and the entire criminal justice system. Those who condone or accept the immoral consequences engendered by prohibitionist legislation, are themselves as guilty of moral corruption as is the cop who, using threat of imminent arrest, points his gun at the 'victim/ criminal' and demands sexual favors in exchange for not being arrested.

  • montana mike||

    I don't think most here (speaking for myself) would argue with your point of view here. Coercion by pimp or cop is not acceptable.

  • Sasha Castel||

    Normajean, can I just say that I admire you tremendously for taking the time to engage with a troglodyte like gggg? (And for other reasons too.)

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  • ludovikazaleskas||

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  • Lee Reynolds||

    "sex workers, who must risk arrest and prison to earn a living..."

    MUST?

    I think the phrase you're looking for is "choose to."

  • montana mike||

    Eliot Spitzer could be brought in as an expert witness...

  • wooffjordy||

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