Shooting in the Dark

Three things people don't know about the Trayvon Martin case (but think they do)

People who are convinced that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin for no good reason frequently say it's absurd to suggest that an unarmed 17-year-old could have posed a deadly threat to a 28-year-old man who outweighed him by 100 pounds. According to a story in Monday’s New York Times, however, Zimmerman is only 20 pounds heavier than Martin, who was four inches taller. 

The revised numbers by no means show that Zimmerman, a Sanford, Florida, neighborhood watch volunteer, is telling the truth when he says he shot Martin in self-defense on the night of February 26. But given that such basic facts are still a matter of dispute, we should be especially cautious about rushing to judgment on bigger questions like these: 

Who started the fight? It seems clear that Martin would still be alive if Zimmerman had not taken it upon himself to follow a teenager he deemed "real suspicious" in light of recent burglaries attributed to young black men. But Zimmerman claims he was heading back to his SUV when Martin approached him and, after a brief exchange, punched him in the face hard enough to knock him down. Although Martin was understandably nervous (and possibly angry) about being followed, that by itself would not justify the assault Zimmerman describes. But if Zimmerman did more than tail Martin—if he shoved him or displayed his gun, say—he might qualify as the initial aggressor. 

Did Zimmerman shoot Martin "in cold blood"? So claimed Natalie Jackson, a lawyer for Martin's family, citing cries for help in the background of a 911 call received during the fight. "It is so clear that this was a 17-year-old boy pleading for his life," Jackson said. Not so clear, actually: While Martin's relatives say they recognize his voice, Zimmerman and his family say the cries are his. Listening to the barely audible screams, I find it difficult to believe that anyone could say for sure who it is. 

In any case, based on witnesses' reports and injuries that were treated by paramedics and noted by police (which included a bloody nose and cuts on the back of Zimmerman's head), Zimmerman shot Martin in the course of a violent struggle—i.e., in the heat of the moment, not in cold blood. He may well have overreacted, but if so his crime would not be tantamount to deliberately running over a black man with a pickup truck just for kicks, as Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center has suggested

Is Florida's "stand your ground" law the reason Zimmerman has not been arrested? Zimmerman claims Martin knocked him down and repeatedly smacked his head against the pavement. He says his gun was exposed during the scuffle and he feared Martin would grab it, so he drew the pistol and fired. In these circumstances, a right to "stand your ground" would make no difference, since there would be no feasible way to safely escape. 

Under Florida law, the crucial question is whether Zimmerman reasonably believed deadly force was necessary to prevent Martin from killing or seriously injuring him. The same defense would have been available to him under the "duty to retreat" standard that applied in public places prior to 2005—even if Zimmerman threw the first punch. 

Another change to the law seems more relevant: To arrest Zimmerman, police need "probable cause" to conclude not simply that he killed someone but also that his use of force was unlawful. Yet probable cause is the same test that applies to all other crimes, and if it has not been met so far the fault probably lies in an incomplete investigation, rather than the requirement that police have a "reasonable belief" a suspect broke the law before they charge him. 

Showing probable cause, of course, is not the same as proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt—something to keep in mind if, as now seems likely, George Zimmerman's claims are scrutinized by a jury.

Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason and a nationally syndicated columnist. Follow him on Twitter.

© Copyright 2012 by Creators Syndicate Inc.

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  • NotSure||

    Forgetting the whole race obsession thing America has for a moment, weight difference matters when two fit boxers/martial artists fight, not so much when you are fat. Think of a Bruce Lee versus Michael Moore, who would win ?

  • Ryan||

    The one who's alive, probably...

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    race obsession

    It's only an obsession when the victims won't stop resisting white PRIVilge of the right to take the most and best PRIVation property, eh, white boy?

    "[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land ... ANY WHITE PERSON who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent." ~Ayn Rand, US Military Academy at West Point, March 6, 1974

    But its always the others with the race obsession, right?

  • NotSure||

    You are proving my point right now. Tell me, does your endless hate against whites make you any less white ?

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    Why would you assume I hate whites just because city-Statists frauds like you think whites can commit genocide and whitewash it with bromides?

  • NotSure||

    You hate yourself, and you do hate whites, to endlessly make broad statements saying that you are white and therefore have committed genocide is more than enough to know what a piece of slime you are.

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    You hate Non-State people, and you do hate real freedom, to endlessly make broad statements saying that you are libertarian and therefore have no guilt is more than enough to know what a piece of slime you are.

  • NotSure||

    Actually I really don't care if people want to live in forests, I do care that people like you want to prevent people from growing their own food and living in cities.

  • ||

    If they have to forage for it, how the fuck is it free?

  • ||

    Free would be without effort of any kind on the individual's part. So, yeah, when your mom blows me, it's pretty much free.

  • NotSure||

    How have I stopped people from foraging exactly ? I am sure in your world people created farms to enslave people.

  • wareagle||

    well, the forced registration worked for a couple of days. *Sigh*

  • Faithkills||

    saying that you are libertarian and therefore have no guilt

    No libertarian is saying that.

    However we have no guilt for the actions of others and certainly have no guilt for the actions of statists like you acting in our names.

    IE the very theft and murder you are whining about. Inflicted by your beloved state. In violation of the golden rule. In violation of the NAP.

    You may not have been alive, but it if someone is to be blamed, it is squarely at the feet of you collectivists.

  • Soc Indv Sparky||

    But he's a white Indian. He's totally been accepted into their culture and given up his place as a "white man". Right?

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    "White Indian" is the term used in James Axtell's book (The Invasion Within, Oxford University Press) to describe a colonizer who freely rejected agricultural city-Statism (civilization) and ran into the silva (woods) with the silvages (dwellers-of-the-woods) to embrace a Non-State sociopolitical typology where people were "autonomous and sovereign."

    They were the real life north american Robin Hoods, sans the dispensing of justice upon the aggressors.

  • NotSure||

    Another patronizing white mans burden shit coming from the white boy himself. There were Indians already living in cities in the new world, being Indian does not imply living in the forest. In fact before 1500 there were more non white people living in cities than whites, but lets not destroy your good versus evil narrative

  • Jeff||

    They were sellouts. Indian Whites, if you will.

  • NotSure||

    Academically dishonest, what a laugh, you are the one using the word "white indian", a completely dishonest and patronizing word.

  • NotSure||

    What does any of this prove, the word is dishonest. In two ways in fact, first of all Indians does not imply forest, secondly the word Indian came from the idea that Columbus landed in India not a new continent.

    Link all you want, the label is both incorrect and insulting, something that you do all the time.

  • NotSure||

    Even I know that the name is not liked, why don't you move your fat piece of lard and tell somebody in a reservation that you think they are indians.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    I still have that land in BC. You do much hunting or gathering in DFW?

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    I'm not offering. I'm saying I live more like you advocate than you do. If you're right and civilization crashes, what do you do to keep your children and grandchildren 98.6°?

  • NotSure||

    The guy probably squeals if he has to kill a rat, he expects people to believe he is going to be able to hunt a big animal with nothing more than a bow and arrow.

  • NotSure||

    Clowns like you have predicted the end of civilization since it began. It does not matter what kind of a society you get, you will always be a loser in that society as well.

    It really does matter how you live, selling the wonders of hunting and nuts and berries, then not doing it ever does mean something, it means that your ideas are pieces of shit that you would not want to even apply to yourself.

  • NotSure||

    Hit a raw nerve have I ? Of you want to stop being a loser stop hoping for the collapse of society, and do something with your life.

    Civilizations have come and gone, nobody is going to go back to hunting though. I did not nationalise the roads, last time I checked, I pay more tax than you can ever dream of, I have paid more than enough for the roads and should be able to use them, they should be cheaper and privatised though. Why exactly should a fat welfare fuck like you get to the use the roads exactly.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    Clowns like you forget a list of civilizations a mile long that no longer exist.

    Great! Whatcha doin about it?

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    Nice bit of backpedaling. But bully for you.

    I offered, you refused. I see no reason to offer again.

    But it doesn't matter how I live.

    Google this: "especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs."

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    I offered once, months ago. You refused. I see no reason to offer again.
    You should look into coconut oil; helps with memory loss.

  • NotSure||

    I also offered, the guy has probably killed nothing more than a fly, yet despite his fat frame and lack of any outdoor activities likes to pretend he is the "white indian".

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    I also offered, the guy has probably killed nothing more than a fly, yet despite his fat frame and lack of any outdoor activities likes to pretend he is the "white indian".

    She's the overweight wife of a cable guy in DFW. From what she's said I doubt she can cook breakfast when the utilities go out.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    your "offer" was as fraudulent then as it is now

    I have misrepresented nothing. I had the means to help you experience something you claimed to be kept from doing. I decided to find out if you really wanted it. You didn't.

  • Brutus||

    At the local CostCo, maybe.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    A member of the WalMart tribe, eh?

  • ||

    Wow, I guess registration wasn't enough to keep you away. You have a sick obsession my friend.

  • Plisade||

    Self defense training, handgun training, height and weight differences... All of these will matter to a jury. In the absence of other evidence the jury will have to put themselves into Zimmerman's shoes to validate his testimony.

  • khm001||

    Trayvon: 6', 150 lbs
    Zimmerman: 5'9", 170bs

    It helps to get your facts straight if you're not sure about them.

  • free2booze||

    Where was Martin shot (head, body)?

  • Brutus||

    Chest

  • TiggyFooo||

    Funny how someone always has to emerge from a crack int he floor to make a big ole "Black Thang" out of it.

    www.Surf-Tools.tk

  • Barack||

    A couple weeks ago, because the weather was beautiful in Chicago, ‎10 dead and 39 wounded in the course of a weekend. One of the dead was a six year old girl. She was black, and the shooter was black, so there's no media hype. Where is the outrage for this six year old girl?
    She "looks" like our president's child too.

  • Old Dave||

    I brought this up to a very "passionate" supporter of Trayvon. She said that those killers are always caught and brought to justice. Zimmerman is being allowed to get away with murder. See, it's all so simple!

  • junyo||

    Considering the fact that lots of cities/states across the country, and most if not all of the elected officials of the demo of which you speak, are basically perfectly willing to ignore large chunks of the Constitution in an effort to address that sort of crime, that argument by conservatives/libertarians strikes me as particularly weak sauce. And more importantly, none of those people are basically arguing that black on black crimes shouldn't be investigated and/or have no one arrested if the shooter is known, as conservatives/libertarians are in this case. A call for investigation/arrest/a grand jury has become tantamount to an unconscionable affront to Mr Zimmerman's fundamental right to kill people without being inconvenienced.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    The shoddy, sensationalistic reporting in this case, coupled with the President weighing in, has guaranteed that if justice is actually done here, it will be sheer dumb luck.

  • ||

    Rightly or wrongly, Zimmerman is fucked. He couldn't get an objective, dispassionate jury selected from little green men from Mars.

  • Enjoy Every Sandwich||

    I'm also thinking that any prison sentence for him is tantamount to a death sentence. I think it's quite likely that the black inmates of whatever institution he would end up in would deal out some rough justice (and probably be lauded by the Left as heroes).

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    rough justice

    The proper term is "Tough Love," which is lauded by the Right as heroic.

  • Soc Indv Sparky||

    Not only that, but if there is a trial and he's acquitted I'd be willing to bet the NBPP won't take down their dead or alive poster.

  • ||

    I'm also thinking that any prison sentence for him is tantamount to a death sentence.

    That's true, I think. Inmates have nothing but time on their hands, and manage to keep up on the goings on of the outside. He would definitely be a marked man and quite the bounty on the inside. High profile inmates tend to have that problem, especially when the nature of the case is violent and reputed to be racially motivated.

  • SugarFree||

    I wonder how much pause this is giving to other wanna-be cops who think it a crime to walk around while black in their neighborhood?

  • ||

    I wonder how much pause this is giving to other wanna-be cops who think it a crime to walk around while black in their neighborhood?

    I don't know. Depends on the level of crime in the neighborhood, description of alleged perps, and how gung-ho the would-be vigilantes are.

    I would imagine quite a bit.

    Conversely, how much does this case embolden criminals, regardless of racial background? Will predominantly black neighborhoods be more or less hostile to non-blacks, assuming there is hostility at all?

  • SugarFree||

    Conversely, how much does this case embolden criminals, regardless of racial background?

    Not at all. Given that a neighborhood watch guy is going to get away with killing a person not committing a crime, they should probably assume that it would be open season in suburbs for actual criminals.

    Especially since the lesson that will sink after this is all over is that you can provoke a confrontation and then claim self-defense if you kill someone. It be worth getting punched in the face a few times so that you could get away with killing them.

  • ||

    Any way you slice it, this case will breed all sorts of undesirable consequences.

    Nothing good will come of it, right that.

  • Randian||

    "get away with"

    You have not only assumed that a crime was committed, but that Zimmerman should be convicted.

    Why? You weren't there.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    I wonder if the Ayn Rand Institute is going to put an office in the Kentucky Creationist Museum complex.

    They could walk past the wooly mammoth exhibit that you modeled for.

  • SugarFree||

    Someone is dead and quite a few people think he's a murderer. From their viewpoint he will "get away with it."

  • ||

    Other than the fact that they may inappropriately act on their viewpoint, if they aren't on the jury, their viewpoint means less than the gum on my shoe.

  • sarcasmic||

    There isn't enough evidence to disprove a claim of self defense.

    So unless he gets an all black jury there's no way he will be convicted.

  • ||

    Maybe so sarc, but again, the odds of getting an objective, untainted jury is going to be close to nil.

    Let's say you're correct: Where is he going to go upon acquittal at trial or dismissal of charges following a grand jury?

    He's still a marked man.

  • sarcasmic||

    Costa Rica?

  • ||

    Well, the weather is agreeable this time of year. Getting him out of the US furtively would be quite a trick.

  • thom||

    Maybe a nice gated community in Florida with an active neighborhood watch program that keeps away troublemakers?

  • junyo||

    And if he gets convicted, there's will way that white folks will be convinced that justice was served. The jury will be demonized for their race and/or political affiliation, and the white man pity party will continue to roll.

  • ||

    Yeah, like rolling all 18s for your ability scores.

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    ...he might qualify as the initial aggressor.

    Does that Randroid stuff even matter?

    Really. Everybody here seems to have abandoned the N.A.P. when it comes to defending the stuff they own that was taken by aggression.

  • sarcasmic||

    Please don't feed it.

  • Plisade||

    Yeah, my bad.

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    It is possible to EARN the things one defends.

    You still pay property taxes to the aggressor who violently took what you are enTITLED by big-government "own," right?

    Keep trying to whitewash with bromides, Taker.

  • Plisade||

    I guess you don't pay any taxes to the aggressors for goods you purchase/own then, making you the real Libertarian here, right?

    "Trying to whitewash"? Puh-lease.

  • Randian||

    Don't fucking feed it. How hard is that?

  • ||

    Feed what? ;)

  • ||

    You know the sound that a 78 makes on the victrola when it gets to the label in the center? ^^^^^^

  • Bilbo||

    I see no talk about the hoodie. Apparently im to believe the hoodie is the reason he got shot. By listening to the media, it seems the hoodie is to blame, not guns or zimmerman.

    However im convinced the media and the race-baiters would not have covered this story if Mr Zimmermans name was Jorge Gonzales

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    Race-baiters? You don't say!

    Every libertarian knows in his heart that niggers, verified by vigorous racialist science, are the aggressor race, even though they hide such conviction in a failing effort to appear unbiased.

    "In short; RACIALIST SCIENCE is properly not an act of aggression or a cover for oppression of one group over another, but, on the contrary, an operation in defense of private property against assaults by AGGRESSORS."

    ~Murray Rothbard, dean of the Austrian School of economics and the founder of libertarianism.

  • Bilbo||

    You should quit trying to sound smart. You're failing miserably. Any idiot can try to find a quote to back up some obscure point of view.

    Myself, I enjoy seeing the irony of people rushing tonjudgement seeking to circumvent the judicial process in order to have an old fashioned lynching.

  • KPres||

    Especially when they NBC the quote all up.

  • ||

    I don't think it was the guns fault.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    Funny how the misconceptions spread by the media in this case are in Martin's favor (except for the quickly-withdrawn "gang sign" photo wrongly said to be of Martin - and that wasn't mainstream media anyway).

    Even if the media partially walks back some of the initial reports, it's probably too late - a firm conviction has formed in the minds of many Americans that Zimmerman is 100% guilty and if he doesn't get sent away for years and years, it can only be because of racism or the evil stand-your ground law (which is itself racist, of course).

  • Jeff||

    Yep. It's Dharun Ravi all over again. Almost nothing that "everyone knows" about this case seems to be true.

  • Brutus||

    Just ask the Duke lacrosse players about how that works.

  • ||

    I can fully admit that my initial judgement based on what little information was given was that Zimmerman was straight-up guilty.

    As new evidence has come to light, it has definitely pushed me more towards "reasonable doubt".

    I still think it was incredibly stupid of him to get out of his car, even if it was legitimately to figure out where he was.

  • General Butt Naked||

    The way this Zimmerman character ran over Phil Ochs with a limosine, I'm not surprised he turned out to be stone cold racist murderer.

    Fuckin' folkies.

  • SIV||

    No youtube for "My Kingdom For a Car".

    Once I Lived the Life of a Commisar

  • General Butt Naked||

    I had never knew of Ochs until I heard this song.

  • SIV||

    Jason and the Scorchers covering Ochs.

    My Kingdom For a Car

  • Melvis||

    Does anyone know who broke this story? This story seems to have been born with such obvious bias and the race angle played up so significantly I only hope the organization that broke the story can be held responsible for what they passed as journalism. Reminds me of how much of the news media treated the Duke Lacross team story, "makes for great news... just hope it ends up being true."

  • Iamtheeviltwin||

    The very first news story I found on this was way off. It stated that Martin was shot during a robbery attempt or something like that.

    Then there is no more news until the family got lawyers involved because they felt Zimmerman should be arrested. It appears to be the lawyers talking to a willing press that turned this situation into the FUBAR it is now.

  • Enjoy Every Sandwich||

    Even if Zimmerman were to "escape justice" because of the "stand your ground" law, that would not prove that the law must be repealed. If one mistake or misuse of a law invalidates that law, how many laws would survive that standard?

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    The good news in all of this tragedy:

    "...the Trayvon Martin case is turning into yet another hearse trundling the Republican Party to its doom in November.

    Awwww...those poor right-wing-nut RINOs, teabaggers, bitter clingers, Fibertarians, and birthers who think America can be saved by ejecting that damn socialist nigger out of the white house.

    Doom, I tells ya! Doom!

    O-O-O-O 2012

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY-VdxwxSas

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    right-wing-nut RINOs, teabaggers, bitter clingers, Fibertarians, and birthers

    "Bitter Clinger!" Cool, that might be my next handle!

    BTW, a RINO is a Leftie running with an "R" next to his name.

  • Jeff||

    Only agricultural city-statists bother to know what acronyms mean before using them.

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    Cool "free republic" talking points there. Can I parrot them too?

  • jacob the barbarian||

    Zimmerman is fucked, and he did most of it to himself. He is the classic wannabee cop. The only problem is that he could not cut the mustard t be a cop. Since that is not a very high hurdle, Zimmerman is an idiot on top of being a wannabee.

    Is Zimmerman a racist? No - but notice that his being latino did not stop the media and the likes of Sharpton from turning him into the Wizard of Sanford. Is he an idiot? Most definitely. The dispatcher told him to stay in the car. While that does not carry any legal authority it certainly was sound advice. Since Zimmerman was carrying a gun, he is responsible for putting himself needlessly into harms way. 'With great power comes great ...'

    Was Martin another idiot? Yes. As a teen I was harassed - followed and questioned - on several occasions, just because I was male, and walking around at night. I do not recall telling anyone to fuck off, let alone hitting them. It appears that Martin has a history of talking with his fists; that kind of communication usual has only a few result, none positive.

  • sarcasmic||

    The dispatcher told him to stay in the car.

    Wrong. The dispatcher asks "Are you following him?" to which Zimmerman responds "Yeah", and the dispatcher says "We don’t need you to do that."

    The narrative would have you believe the dispatcher said "Stay in your car" or "Do not follow him", but that is not the case.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    'Wrong. The dispatcher asks "Are you following him?" to which Zimmerman responds "Yeah", and the dispatcher says "We don’t need you to do that."'
    OK Sarc, you are right. Still, are Zimmerman's actions qualitatively any less stupid in this light?

  • sarcasmic||

    The stupid one was the one who assaulted a guy who was armed with a gun.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    If Martin threw the first punch you are right.

    Since Zimmerman it appears that not capable of handling himself in a fight, then why is he following larger, suspicious looking individuals around at night? What could the end result be then, other than Zimmerman shooting his assailant?

    When you apply for a concealed carry in this state you get it beaten in your head that you need to avoid trouble, not look for it. Was Zimmerman trolling? If so he is legally culpable for Martin's death. If not, then he should be a free man.

    Either way his life is over.

  • sarcasmic||

    If Martin threw the first punch you are right.

    There is no evidence to contradict that.

    Since Zimmerman it appears that not capable of handling himself in a fight

    Then chances are he wouldn't start one, right?

    What could the end result be then, other than Zimmerman shooting his assailant?

    Maybe he didn't expect to be assaulted?

    Was Zimmerman trolling? If so he is legally culpable for Martin's death.

    Following someone around is not illegal, nor is it deserving of assault.

    It appears Martin assaulted someone with a gun, and got shot for it.

    Would you have preferred that Zimmerman had been unarmed, and been found dead with the back of his head caved in?

    Or Martin grabbing the gun, shooting Zimmerman with it, then running off?

  • jacob the barbarian||

    Sarc, I stated above that Martin is IDIOT # 2 in this mess. My point is that both of them are fools, with Zimmerman being the poster boy for the anti-gun lobby.

    Martin has a history of using his fists when he is provoked. That never ends well. I ain't crying over Martin.

  • sarcasmic||

    with Zimmerman being the poster boy for the anti-gun lobby.

    Yes and no. If you didn't need permission to legally carry a weapon, then common sense would dictate that you treat everyone as potentially being armed.
    In which case Zimmerman likely wouldn't have done what he did, and neither would Martin.
    An armed society is a polite society.

  • MrOblong||

    You may have noticed that our society is (relative to other Western nations) an armed society.

    You may have further noticed that our society is far, far from a polite society.

    Your conclusion appears to be invalid. It is possible that if we further armed society, things would take a turn for the better, but I'm not holding my breath.

    I enjoy shooting, and support gun rights on principle. However, I am under no illusions that we wouldn't have a safer society if there were *no guns at all*.

  • Virginian||

    I enjoy shooting, and support gun rights on principle. However, I am under no illusions that we wouldn't have a safer society if there were *no guns at all*.

    ____________

    Uh, what? You fucking serious?

    Before the invention of the firearm, the world was run by large men with swords. Whoever had the most large guys with swords got to tell everyone else what to do.

    Nothing, not the printing press, not the Internet, not the Magna Carta or the Constitution, nothing in the world has led to more liberty then the firearm.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    One more thing. Right now we do not know who got physical first. You are way too sure that it was Martin. I am waiting for the finding from the grand jury report to come out.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    "An armed society is a polite society."
    +10

  • sarcasmic||

    You are way too sure that it was Martin.

    Look up the transcript of Zimmer's 911 call.
    Seems Martin was all agitated about being followed.

    I see nothing to contradict or doubt Zimmer's account of what happened.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    OK. That is fair. I am holding final judgement until I see how does the witness' testimony aligns with Zimmerman's. Have you ever seen a 'cop' condemn himself?

  • junyo||

    There is no evidence to contradict that.

    There's also no evidence to confirm it. yet, magically "It appears Martin assaulted someone with a gun, and got shot for it."

    Would you have preferred that Zimmerman had been unarmed, and been found dead with the back of his head caved in?
    Would have preferred that Zimmerman stay the fuck in his car, or at minimum exercise better tactics as a person carrying, and he's still be some unknown mall ninja, and the other guy would be a mouthy teen hurtling towards his 18th birthday.

    But I guess mouthy teen should be a capital offense.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    'Feedeth not the troll, lest ye be consumed by his dullness'

  • R C Dean||

    The stupid one was the one who assaulted a guy who was armed with a gun.

    So, we finally have independent confirmation that Trayvon started the fight.

    Good to know. I guess we can put this all behind us now.

  • Sabotage2u||

    The people claiming Martin started the confrontation have no proof outside of "Zimmerman's Claim". I'm glad we are ok just taking people who at their word when a crime has possibly committed "Serial Killers/Rapists" should be very pleased at this development in our legal system. Innocent until proven guilty is thes standard for trial, not being "arrested". The Zimmerman supporters also cleverly neglect the fact that Trayvon's girlfriend who alleges she was on phone with him when Zimmerman confronted Martin (phone records back up her claim of being on the phone with him contradicting Zimmerman's account) thus turning the witness accounts into a he said vs she said. Ignore all the media sensationalism coming from both parties involved, and let this thing play out in court as it should have all along. The reason this blew up was that the SPD botched the intial investigation where any reasonable person would have had a least a probable cause to charge ZImmerman with a crime & investigate further. I'm not saying Zimmerman is guilty, I am saying his story is suspect & there is enough evidence to warrant a "legit" investigation/a trial by his peers.

  • Proprietist||

    I don't think enough information is publicly available to say, but if the DA thought there was enough evidence to bring charges and convict within the scope of the law, they would have brought charges by now to get out of the hot seat. But prosecutor's won't waste time and money if they think they're going to lose the case with an unbiased jury, and their actions so far indicate they believe this to be true. I'm glad they're exercising restraint in the face of the lynch mob.

    The best hope for Martin's family is to bring a civil lawsuit and let a majority of a jury decide (vs. a criminal court that needs unanimous consent beyond a reasonable doubt).

  • wareagle||

    the Zimmerman supporters are the natural reaction to the Martin supporters. Neither side definitively knows what happened and at least one of those sides could care less about actual facts.

    One of Z's friends says there had been a string of burglaries in the neighborhood, a claim that should be easy enough to verify or debunk through police records. If the claim is accurate, then Martin could be viewed as suspicious. Sidebar: so no one thought it would be a good idea to give Trayvon a ride to the store for his tea instead of having him walk in the rain?

  • Mike Giles||

    Sidebar: so no one thought it would be a good idea to give Trayvon a ride to the store for his tea instead of having him walk in the rain?

    As i understand it he was originally at home watching an NBA game with his father's girl friend's children. And perhaps it wasn't raining, or wasn't raining hard, before he set out to the store. Perhaps it only started to rain - or rain heavily - on the way back. Which casts an interesting light on Martin putting his hood up and starting to run. How many haven't done the same thing to get out of the rain?

  • Azathoth!!||

    The Zimmerman supporters also cleverly neglect the fact that Trayvon's girlfriend who alleges she was on phone with him when Zimmerman confronted Martin (

    Actually, this call is easily useable as another example of the out and out lies that are taken as truths recieved from on high.

    Zimmerman was on the phone. Trayvon was on the phone. Both were talking to people who could not see what was going on. But the calls paint a picture.

    In Zimmerman's call, there is a point at which he says Trayvon noticed him.

    In the girl's call there is a point where she says Trayvon says something about a guy watching him.

    We now have something like a contemporaneous timeline.

    She tells Trayvon to run. Zimmerman says Trayvon is running. She says Zimmerman confronts Trayvon. Zimmerman is told by the dispatcher that they don't need him to follow Trayvon. She says Zimmerman attacks Trayvon, knocks his phone out of his hand--phone goes dead. Zimmerman says okay....and continues conversing with the dispatcher for a few more minutes....

    See the problem? Somebody's lying here--and we have Zimmerman on tape. All we have from the girl's call are timestamps and her words--that don't match the recordings.

    So the her call is important--because it did happen, because the times line up, and because it showcases the blatant lying being done by the 'Martin side'.

  • KPres||

    " I am saying his story is suspect & there is enough evidence"

    You haven't seen the evidence. Most of it is being witheld.

    When evidence isn't available, you have to make a character judgement. And Zimmerman seems like a decent guy. He's Hispanic after all. They're good people.

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    I was harassed ... I do not recall telling anyone to fuck off

    That's because you've been properly domesticated into being submissive to the system of domination, boy.

    Submissives to city-Statism call it becoming "civilized."

    Their masters tell them it's a good thing.

  • Brian from Texas||

    Damn Straight! I don't care who you are or who you think you are, if I'm minding my own business and you get in my face you can have a dozen good reasons for doing it and you'll still get an argument from me. And I rarely lose arguments when I pack a piece as I often do.

  • MrOblong||

    So your argument is that Martin should have been able to speak his mind without fear, or that he should only have been able to do so if he was packing? Seems like a bit of a "might makes right" double standard.

    I don't question one's choice for carrying a gun for self defense, but I weep for those who think their weapon makes them a big man.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    So you aren't civilized?
    Ever start a fire with a bow drill? Hand drill? Flint & steel? Mischmetal?

  • jacob the barbarian||

    'Feedeth not the troll, lest ye be consumed by his dullness' JTB 30:1

  • Soc Indv Sparky||

    you repeat this bullshit over and over and over and over

    Why?

    One can only laugh at the irony of this statement.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    One can only laugh at the irony of this statement.

    Discordance. She seeks it in others. Can't see it in herself.

  • Soc Indv Sparky||

    Sounds like a new First World Problems meme.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    Because its a distraction from the realization that the critique of civilization destroys many of your premises upon which your political philosophy is based.

    My political philosophy is to gain and keep whatever freedom is within reach.

    You refuse to check your premises, attempting to keep your house of cards from being blown over.

    I have seen nothing from you that challenges my premises.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    You don't want freedom, you want more stuff you don't need to impress people you don't like; i.e., hierarchical status.

    Hehehe. When I thought you weren't going to show up anymore I explained I was probably the only person here who missed you.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    You don't want freedom, you want more stuff you don't need to impress people you don't like; i.e., hierarchical status.

    Hehehe. When I thought you weren't going to show up anymore I explained I was probably the only person here who missed you.

    You're a sweatheart.

    No, actually I have something to gain.

  • free2booze||

    The only problem is that he could not cut the mustard t be a cop.

    Or, he's a concerned member of the community, who feels that he has a duty to help ensure the safety of his community, rather than depend on the state to protect him.

  • SugarFree||

    Or he's someone so in love the gleam of jackboots that he calls the cop constantly so he can feel like a big man.

  • SIV||

    5 times a year. Maybe he should just cut ot the middle man and shoot the trespassers.

  • SugarFree||

    A lot of people are making hay out of the "cutting between houses" claim. I did that in my neighborhood when I was a teenager hundreds of times, more often when I was trying to get home out of the rain.

    Should the police have been called every time? Should an armed neighborhood watch dipshit have shot me for that terrible offense? We had a few break-ins too. Should my life have been forfeit for simple trespass?

  • Soc Indv Sparky||

    Should my life have been forfeit for simple trespass?

    Careful now, I know there are some here who would say "yes".

  • SugarFree||

    Careful now, I know there are some here who would say "yes".

    I know that. The only solution for their kind is for one of their children to be shot for following a basketball that accidentally rolled into a neighbor's yard.

  • free2booze||

    Should an armed neighborhood watch dipshit have shot me for that terrible offense?

    Not unless you tried to beat the shit out of the neighborhood watch dipshit.

    Martin wasn't shot because for cutting through yards. He was shot, because he initiated violence against a person carrying a gun.

  • free2booze||

    There is nothing criminal about carrying a pistol (with a carry permit), getting out of a car, or asking a person what they are doing in your neighborhood. The same can't be said about punching a person in the face, and allegedly slamming their head into the pavement.

  • SugarFree||

    So the last man standing says. Zimmerman's injures prove there was a struggle, and nothing at all about who started it.

  • ||

    Which is why this is a retarded argument, and even the regulars who know better are falling into the same trap the article addresses.

    You're better than that, diabetes boy.

  • junyo||

    "He was shot, because he initiated violence against a person carrying a gun."

    ...according to the guy who shot him.

  • Brutus||

    Should an armed neighborhood watch dipshit have shot me for that terrible offense?

    No, but that's not what happened so your argument is the flimsiest of straw men.

  • SugarFree||

    Brutus, a lot of people on here and out in the world think that it was OK for Zimmerman to call the cops and then confront Martin for "cutting between houses." This is the "crime" that justifies the events that led to the shooting in their minds.

  • free2booze||

    There's nothing wrong with confronting a person for walking between houses, as long as there is no use of force, or threatening a use of force. It's an exercise of free speech. Martin could have chosen not to answer Zimmerman's questions, continued to walk away, and if he really felt that he was in danger, Martin could have called 911 himself. He decided not to exercise any of those options, and instead, Martin resorted to violence.

  • SugarFree||

    He decided not to exercise any of those options, and instead, Martin resorted to violence.

    Whose word do we have for that? Oh, that's right. The shooter's.

  • Azathoth!!||

    I haven't heard anything about Martin 'cutting between houses'. Are you mischaracterizing Zimmerman's statement about being in a 'cut-through'? In a place where addresses weren't readily apparent? Because that's the only mention of a cut through that there has been--well, only FACTUAL mention. Anyone speculating is doing so without a basis in fact, so why bother?

  • db||

    My parents instilled a strong respect for others' property from an early age. I almost never cut across lawns to get places. Even when neighbors told me it was OK, i felt i should always ask. I always tbought it was weird when people would act lile the property owner was an asshole if he requested you stay off the lawn.

  • ||

    My parent's did too, but everyone on my cul-de-sac let us kids cut through their yards and play football across them. Except one old dude whose lawn we avoided like the plague.

    All of our backyards here in Texas are fenced in, so I'm having a hard time picturing how Martin was cutting between houses.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    If he wanted to be a cop that badly, and could pass the test, he would be a cop. He has WANNABEE written all over.

  • Sabotage2u||

    The Pro-Zimmerman camp also likes to pretend this guy wasn't previously part of a bouncer/security team that was hired to provide security for "illegal parties". He was later let go from this job for "allegedly" flying of the handle consistently & striking a female party goers. (According to his boss/co-worker) However, let's keep ignoring this guy's past/temperament & claiming he was some Good Samaritan hero & not some over aggressive wannabe mall cop who liked to drop a "Coon Ass" into his 911 call. Cause you know "coon ass" is a very professional descriptive word when helping the police.

  • Azathoth!!||

    Zimmerman didn't call 911. If you are this misinformed, perhaps silence would be a better tactic.

    Zimmerman called the non-emergency police line--you know, the one you call when the neighbors are getting a bit loud, or you see someone acting weird.. He didn't call 911.

  • Cult of Personality||

    SSssshhh with those pesky fact things!!

    Trayvon Martin was murdered because George Zimmerman was a racist who hated skittles. End of story.

  • Sabotage2u||

    Ahh yes because the semantics of the non-emergency police line vs 911 is what is being debated. Nice try red herring. Next time try answering any of my questions or disputing actual pertinent facts about the case.

  • Azathoth!!||

    The only thing close to a fact in your post was the mischaracterisation of the call. Everything else is innuendo, speculation and hearsay--including the notion that Zimmerman said anything like 'coon ass'.

    Perhaps if you stuck with things we know to be facts you'd come across as somewhat less rabid.

  • Cult of Personality||

    Might I also add that when he uses the term "Pro Zimmerman camp" he is referring to people who require facts, not speculation, to form opinions.

  • Sabotage2u||

    Ah yes don't let something like the actual unedited audio recording of him saying "coon ass" to the Non-Emergency Police Line get in the way of you dismissing it as inneundo & speculation.

    Also, why rely on the public records of his ex-fiance having a restraining order against Zimmerman due to a domestic violence claim, or the charge he struck a police officer, or the witness account of his former co-workers that he was fired after pushing a women in the face at a party he was hired to be security for.

    You are entitled to your own opinion; but you are not entitled to your own facts. Instead offering a counter to the "facts" I've presented, I'm sure you will stick your fingers in your ears to block out a different POV from your own while scream "inneundo, hearsay"!!

  • jacob the barbarian||

    CONTINUED ...

    In any tragedy it always takes TWO idiots to get someone killed over something this petty. This killing destroyed two families, which is bad enough. Even worse, it brought vultures like Jackson, Sharpton and Farrakan out of their respective lairs. That Obama inserted himself into this is another demonstration of just far in the community organizer is over his head. The real tragedy is that it gave a wedge issue for the Alinsky-ite in chief to run on, and damage the social fabric of our nation further.

    The overwhelming number of murders in this country is of young men who look like Martin, the trouble is that their killers also look like Martin. This circus is grotesque in that the marches should not be over Trayvon, but over the hundreds who die every year in the inner cities needlessly.

  • MOFO.||

    Heh, death is bad enough, but having to deal with Jackson, Sharpton and Farrakan is even worse?

    I like your style sir.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    Martin dying is tragic for his family friends. When the race baiters come out the impact to the nation as greater reach and is worse for the nation.

  • sarcasmic||

    If he hadn't assaulted a guy with a gun then he would still be alive.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    agreed

  • MrOblong||

    I'm much more scared of wannabe thugs as self-styled cops than I am of race-baiters.

    Hell, the ACTUAL cops are bad enough, and the bar is set low enough to become one. I'm terrified by a wannabe cop with a gun who is NOT SMART ENOUGH TO BECOME A COP.

  • Brian from Texas||

    Whatever the legal outcome ends up being here, George Zimmerman's life as he knew it before is over. With all the blind hate and anger that's been stirred up against him he can change his name and move to Alaska and he'll still be living in fear of his life for now on.

  • Soc Indv Sparky||

    +1

  • MOFO.||

    Pththth, this whole thing will be forgotten in 6 months. The left is exceedingly fickle and so is the media.

  • Brian from Texas||

    Not with the likes of Sharpton and Farrakhan. They still think every white person in America living today is legally and financially liable for the institution of Slavery.

  • MOFO.||

    Ok, without looking, what were the names of any of the Duke Lacross team members accused of rape? What was the girl's name?

    What was the name of the black kid that was beaten to death in a florida 'boot camp'? What were his attackers names?

    Now ask anyone around you the same question and see how many people remember any of that.

    Sorry, this manufactured outrage has a short expiration date, after that, its forgotten.

  • wareagle||

    just because someone can't name the entire lacrosse team does not mean what happened won't follow them. Please. When Casey Anthony moves in next door, you going to pretend you either cannot recognize her or never heard the name? Maybe Zimmerman will bunk with her for a while.

  • MOFO.||

    5 years from now, yea, i bet i wont recognize Casey Anthony from anyone. Can you remember what the scandle de jeur was in 2007?

  • MarkVShaney||

    "Can you remember what the scandle de jeur was in 2007?"

    They wanted to pull the feeding tube from that woman who misspelled du jour?

  • ||

    He can always apply for political amnesty to Sweden.

  • ||

    Or maybe France. Hang out with Polanski.

  • jacob the barbarian||

    Won't work, Polanski is a luv-ah not a kil-ah.

  • SugarFree||

    See how JW fails as a candidate for moderator? If it were me, this problem would have already been taken care of? Where is JW? Asleep in his comfortable bed while the board he claims to love is under sustained moron assault? Stuffing his face with doughnuts in a bathroom stall and crying? Who knows?

    But I am here.

    #SFMOD2012

  • ||

    The question is not what I can do for you as a voter, but what you can do for me as a moderator. The name of the game is pork, baby.

  • SugarFree||

    I embrace the corrupt machine that is democracy. Make me your Moderator and I will lavish you with favors, smite thine enemies, and bring prosperity--true prosperity--to this board once again!

    #SFMOD2012

  • ||

    You had me at 'corrupt machine'.

  • Cadwallader Colden||

    Poor dear, hearing things your ears just can't abide.

    Whine more.

  • GILMORE||

    No, you're just an asshole

  • SugarFree||

    There is no bigger asshole than the ones who spin their delusions as "uncomfortable truths."

  • Soc Indv Sparky||

    Some people don't have as much trouble being honest as you seem to have.

  • SugarFree||

    Fuck honest, Sparky. Just "not boring" should be a minimum criteria.

    Which is why as Moderator...

  • Soc Indv Sparky||

    There is no way on Earth I would vote for a genetically challenged being of any sort.

  • SugarFree||

    I agree, Sparky. I would never vote for JW either.

  • ||

    Hey, leave Warty out of this.

  • Xiver||

    Actually I think the term you are looking for is actually delusional idiot.

  • MarioLanza||

    Perhaps the most important point of this episode:

    NBC left out the 911 dispatcher's question of "what does the guy look like?" to which Zimmerman (the "white Hispanic") replied "He looks black." NBC is now "apologizing" for the complete breach of journalism ethics.

    The race baiters are trying to portray this as racial profiling. It was fairly dark to the point that Zimmerman wasn't even sure of Martin's ethnicity!!!

  • Brutus||

    Yeah, but the media don't have a pigeon hole for that, so it's tossed into whichever narrative fits best.

  • Mike Giles||

    You forget the most important part of that conversation: as originally said:

    Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.


    So. Why was he judged to be "up to no good"? The only actions given were "he’s just walking around, looking about". Zimmerman added: "Or he’s on drugs or something". And why did Zimmerman think this? Was Martin staggering or acting in a strange manner? Or did he just add that to make Martin sound more suspicious? I'd like to know what questions the dispatcher asked him after he identified the suspect as black - or was that enough right there?

  • MSimon||

    Burglars are always casing. It gets to be a habit.

  • Azathoth!!||

    I'd like to know what questions the dispatcher asked him after he identified the suspect as black - or was that enough right there?

    You would? Then listen to the damned call and stop making an ass of yourself. The whole thing is available. You can hear EVERY question the dispatcher asked.

  • Marco||

    Zimmerman will probably attach a lawyer who is looking to become a multi-millionaire celebrity lawyer. Anyone who successfully defends Zimmerman will name a name for himself.
    Zimmerman’s lawyer will be able to channel the ghost of Johnnie Cochran.
    Zimmerman like OJ Simpson is entitled to a jury of his peers, which means there will be plenty of Latinos in the jury pool. I believe Zimmerman will walk.
    I wonder how this will play out in the Latino community. Liberals assumed there is an alliance between black and Latinos. But most Latinos fell more connected to the white community and prefer to live in white communities instead of black communities. Or in the case of South Central Los Angeles or Compton, Mexican gangs just harass black residents until they leave.
    Obama is going to get 95% of the black no matter what he does. Getting to involved in the Zimmerman case might clause he some of the Latino vote. In a tight election, look for Trayvon Martin get thrown under the bus.

  • THIS SUX||

    Rubio, is that you? Don't you have the people's business to attend to?

  • MSimon||

    Liberals assumed there is an alliance between black and Latinos.

    And there used to be an alliance between Blacks and Jews.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    I don't know if Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin or not, and I've resigned myself that I will never know.

    What I do know is that journalism in sensational cases tends to be horrific and this one has been no exception. It doesn't help when NBC is editing 911 tapes so egregiously or that the forensic expert used by CNN (and others) to positively refute that it was Zimmerman's screams of help on the recording is no audio expert but a software peddler. They are managing to make Zimmerman into a sympathetic character.

  • Mike Giles||

    Reality check. In some quarters Zimmermen was always going to be a sympathetic character - just as in other quarters he was going to be a villain. Martin was going to be innocent teen - and in others he would be tied in with - if not morphed into - every black thug who ever crossed the landscape.

  • R C Dean||

    There's one fact that overshadows all the others, and its the one fact that it looks like we will never know:

    Who started the fight?

    If your position on this depends on your belief that you know who started the fight, your position is sadly in error.

    Here's what I think:

    (1) Taking Zimmerman at his word, he took a gun with him to pursue Trayvon to make sure he didn't get away. That's reckless.

    (2) If Zimmerman started the fight, he shouldn't be able to claim self-defense no matter how bad his ass was getting kicked. I realize the law can be read differently, but if that's how its read, its a bad law. In this case, Zimmerman's recklessness may push him up from second to first degree manslaughter.

    (3) If Trayvon started the fight, Zimmerman should walk, even though he was reckless.

  • ||

    Unless they can prove he drew and shot without provocation, they can't even make Man 1. Man 2, with a plea bargain down to Reckless Endangerment, followed by a wrongful death suit.

    That's assuming he ever sees the inside of a courtroom.

  • Azathoth!!||

    Where is it recorded that Zimmerman "took a gun with him to pursue Trayvon to make sure he didn't get away"? Or is it more properly stated that he took his gun with him when he went to Target and did not leave it in the car when he pursued Trayvon to make sure he didn't get away?

  • Mike Giles||

    Is it possible that this is simply a horrible misunderstanding? Martin is running home, hood up to get out of the rain - when he runs right into the "suspicious" white guy who was following him. And Zimmerman, heeding the advice of the dispatcher, is heading back to his car, when he runs smack dab into that "suspicious" black kid, who he believes has "ambushed" him?

    And where exactly within that gated community did Zimmerman live?

  • KPres||

    Of course it's possible.

    What's not possible is that any public figure or media personality portray it that way.

  • junyo||

    That's always been my belief. Misunderstanding, escalation; gasoline, match. Then someone makes the wrong move and you have, if not a crime, then a tragic mistake.

    The only issue is the moral (if not legal) onus is on you when you're carrying, to de-escalate and make no mistakes whenever possible. You may have legal cover in an act that deprives another human of their life, that doesn't make it right.

    But we've officially plunged off the cliff where either:
    a) Martin rubbed his dick on Zimmerman's face while rapping and flashing gang signs.
    or
    b) Zimmerman jumped from a cleverly concealed hiding spot and shot Martin dead.

  • MSimon||

    If Zimmerman started the fight, he shouldn't be able to claim self-defense no matter how bad his ass was getting kicked.

    In other words the only way Zim can be sure if Martin has murderous intent is to let Martin murder him.

  • junyo||

    And conversely, never defend yourself, since winning is sufficient grounds for the other guy to shoot you.

  • ||

    Has anyone else had their email address "borrowed"? I've been away for a while, since before the registration process began. When I tried to set up an account, the system said that my email was already in use. I reset the password, and updated with my own info just now.

    Pale Rider/Rather strikes again?

  • ||

    Oh, I'm sure, as they had ample motivation to attack me. *eyeroll*

  • PJ Doland||

    Your email address wasn't "borrowed." Your public username was pre-registered so nobody could spoof your username.

  • ||

    Ah, thank you, PJ. And thank YOU, Reason.

  • THIS SUX||

    Reason, I am extremely disappointed. Not only have you gutted us of our anonymity but we still have articles blemished by this white indian twat. Thanks...

  • Proprietist||

    Yeah, I was going to say that I was fine with registration if it includes Troll Control. Now, what's the point?

  • Sean Mack||

    Very true. It's hard to recommend people to this site when you have to keep apologizing for the utter foolery of the comments section.

    Now it'll be even harder: "Well, see, they DO require registration but they DON'T moderate content even in the most clear cut cases - it's all part of the wild libertarian ambience."

  • Fluffy||

    I think it's interesting to note that Zimmerman's brother now says that Martin punched Zimmerman as Zimmerman was reaching "for his cell phone". (As part of the "brief exchange" you mention above.)

    I'd be very interested to see what, exactly, Zimmerman was wearing, and where he claims he was carrying his weapon, and where he claims he was carrying his cell phone.

  • sarcasmic||

    I'd be very interested to see what, exactly, Zimmerman was wearing

    I bet you would, you perv.

  • Cult of Personality||

    Hey I think the mainstream media deserves more credit than they're getting.

    Think how many months of coverage they will have when the inevitable race riots start that they have created.

  • Fat Bennie||

    It seems strange that those calling for Zimmerman's blood are engaging in the same behavior they are accusing Zimmerman of. Rushing to judgement, racial bias, and unfounded accusing. Isn't it better for all to wait until evidence is actually found and diseminated before labeling this guy as a murderer? I have no doubt that this guy is guilty of something, no one has the right to shoot an unarmed kid, but shouldn't we wait to judge this guy until the "facts" are available? Jumping on the band wagon to crucify Zimmerman is just the same as chasing after someone who is wearing a hoodie?

  • MarkVShaney||

    It really isn't strange; it's kind of predictable. These days when you don't get the decision you like from the establishment you undertake a campaign to get the media to inflame the mob. It is the founding principle for Nancy Grace's career.

  • ||

    Why doesn't stand your ground apply to Trayvon Martin?

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    I don't think they're charging him with anything, either.

  • shamalam||

    According to my reading of the law, the SYG law would have covered Trayvon had he beat Zimmerman to death.

  • shamalam||

    According to my reading of the law, the SYG law would have covered Trayvon had he beat Zimmerman to death.

  • ||

    It all comes down to who initiated the violence. The jury is still out on that one.

  • shamalam||

    How will that question ever be resolved? There is only one breathing witness: case closed.

  • Harvard||

    AS long as we're going to postulate without knowing the facts let me suggest we probably haven't squandered a cure for cancer with the untimely death of a pud that described himself as "No-Limit Nigger" howevermuch he resembled Obama's make believe son. The neighborhood wannabe beaner cop probably wasn't going to replace Seal Team 6 either.
    If nothing else is learned it's that Samuel Colt provided the deciding edge and it's Trevon's fault he wasn't smart enough to back up his attitude with a popper of his own.

  • Sabotage2u||

    Except, Trayvon's a minor & couldn't legally purchase a firearm but don't let that get in the way of your moronic race baiting ignorant terrible attempt at a joke rant.

  • Harvard||

    Except, Trevon's minor status didn't preclude him from trolling pot around school or slugging a bus driver, as the tweet from his brother indicates. But don't let that get in the way of your pitiful attempt at a societal apology and wholesale guilt trip.

  • Sabotage2u||

    Again, nice Red Herring. None of the claims about Trayvons Marijuana use or claims he got into a fight at school have anything to do with the night he was shot & killed. No one's apologizing or offering guilt trips, I'm merely calling out ignorant off topic posts with racist undertones. You stated Trayvon should have had a gun, I pointed out he legally cannot own one. You reply off topic with more attacks on the kid. Ignoring all the instances in Zimmerman's past that point to his demeanor & actions on that night. Don't worry I'm sure if Trayvon had been carrying an illegal firearm like you apparently wanted him to you you'd be bashing him just the same since it would better fit your stereotype argument. Feel free to crawl back under your rock now troll with your David Duke poster.

  • Harvard||

    Speaking of blushing Herring, the totpic I'm supposedly off of was simply that the culture won't miss either. Not the cowboy with the gun who put himself in an untenable position or the miscreant with a 'tude who (if reported testimony of so called witnesses is true) escalated the encounter. If anyone is stereotyping anything here it may well be you. When/if Zimmerman walks feel free to trummpet another "outrage", elitist shitbird.

  • Sabotage2u||

    David Duke struck a nerve huh?! Reported testimony of whom? Zimmerman the man who's ass is on the line and the only alive witness at the start of the encounter. He'd have no incentive to lie right? Glad you dismiss the alleged testimony of "miscreant's" GF whose phone records corroborate she was on the phone with Martin at the time Zimmerman started the altercation. Feel free to keep data mining to support your pre-disposed view. Elitist is such a funny insult since I've never been mistaken for one before. Yet you have no problem labeling a kid you don’t know a miscreant “pot meet kettle”. I'm neither outraged nor incensed. I just want the police to do their jobs & conduct a proper investigation something they failed to do initially. If they determine no wrong doing on Zimmerman’s part so be it. Like any real libertarian I'd like to take solace that I don't have to worry about every wanna be mall cop turd with a gun & a inferiority complex pulling on a gun on me for being a free citizen legally walking down a sidewalk. You however, need to stop masquerading as libertarian and let your race baiting neo-con Glenn Beck panties show.

  • Harvard||

    Must you attempt to try this case on a blog like every other pantload apologist? Ok, I see your girl friend and raise you the black chief of police.
    The point still is, neither subject here is a sympathetic one, and you're included. The term "troll" indicates that anyone here that hasn't 1000 posts is somehow "unworthy". And wearing a tawdry "Real Libertarian" banner on your "I'm a Reg" pin point oxford makes you neither. Fuck off.

  • shamalam||

    If anybody is interested here is a link to the full text of Florida's (and other states') SYG law.

    As I read it, Zimmerman is shielded from prosecution, and from civil suits.

    There are a few ways to lose one's protections under the SYG law, but none seem to fit this case. Zimmer was not charged. This is why.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

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