The Volokh Conspiracy
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Trump's Plan to Seize Greenland is Simultaneously Evil, Illegal, and Counterproductive
It would alienate allies, impose US rule on an unwilling population, and blatantly violate both US and international law.The plan to impose tariffs on nations opposing the seizure is also illegal and harmful.

Donald Trump's plan to seize Greenland has the rare distinction of simultaneously combining grave injustice, massive illegality, and extreme counterproductive stupidity. The same is true of his more recent effort to impose tariffs on eight European countries opposing the plan.
Let's start with first principles. As the Declaration of Independence states, government should be based on the "consent of the governed." No real-world government is fully consensual. But a US conquest would make the government of Greenland less consensual than it is now. Polls indicate some 85% of Greenlanders oppose annexation by the US, while only 6% support it. In the 2025 Greenland election, the overwhelming majority of them voted for parties that support either independence or continued rule by Denmark.
Forcible annexation could perhaps be justified if it were the only way to stop some kind of severe oppression. But there is nothing like that in Greenland. Nor is there any reason think that US rule would be significantly better in terms of protecting various human rights than the current combination of Danish rule and extensive regional autonomy.
In addition to being unjust, US conquest would also obviously be illegal. It would, in fact, be a war of aggression similar to Russia's assault on Ukraine. The Nuremberg tribunal ruled that starting a war of aggression is "the supreme international crime," and this was one of the main charges on which many of the Nazi defendants were convicted. Denmark has owned Greenland for centuries and its sovereignty over that territory is universally recognized, including by the US in a 1917 agreement, in which the US accepted the "extension" of Danish control over all of Greenland.
The initiation of war - perhaps even an illegal war - can sometimes be justified for the purpose of removing a brutally oppressive regime. But, again, Danish rule in Greenland is nothing like that.
A war of aggression to conquer Greenland would violate US law, as well as international law. The US and Denmark are both signatories to the North Atlantic Treaty, which established NATO. Article V of that treaty requires the parties to come to each other's defense in the event of an "armed attack" against any of them, in Europe or North America. If the US is required to help defend Denmark against attack, it is obvious that it also has an obligation not to attack Denmark's territory itself.
Under Article VI of the Constitution, "all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land." Thus, Trump and other US officials are required to obey both the North Atlantic Treaty and the 1917 treaty recognizing Denmark's sovereignty over Greenland.
These points all still apply if Trump's plan is "merely" to use the threat of force to coerce Denmark into selling Greenland. Using the threat of an unjust and illegal war to take another nation's land is itself unjust and illegal. It's a kind of international extortion scheme.
In addition to being unjust and illegal, the plan to seize Greenland is also incredibly stupid and counterproductive. The main official rationale is the supposed need to protect Greenland from seizure by Russia and China. But those countries have no forces in the region that could possibly take it. Moreover, in the unlikely event that a genuine threat were to materialize, an existing agreement with Denmark already allows the US to station as many troops in Greenland as it needs for defense. In the event of attack, the two nations could also call on the assistance of the other NATO states.
If Trump really wanted to counter Russia, he would join with other NATO allies in backing Ukraine. If Russia is defeated in Ukraine, or even just remains bogged down there, it cannot pose much of a threat to Greenland or any other NATO territory. Instead, Trump has been betraying Ukraine and undermining NATO by threatening an ally's territory. Such moves actually help Russia and our other enemies, rather than hinder them.
An attack on Greenland would predictably alienate the allies, and severely undermine the alliance, if not destroy it completely. The loss of our most important allies would weaken the US and strengthen our enemies far more than owning Greenland could possibly benefit us. Denmark itself is a longtime steadfast ally, and sent some 10,000 troops to support us in Afghanistan. If we betray a close, longstanding ally in such an egregious way, other allies will see they cannot count on us, and will draw the obvious conclusions.
Another possible rationale for Trump's move is obtaining Greenland's mineral wealth. But we can far more easily obtain access to it through the simple mechanisms of trade and investment, to which Denmark and Greenland are open. In any event, any economic or strategic gain here is far outweighed by the immense harm of alienating all our allies.
What is true of Trump's plan to conquer Greenland is also true of his more recent plan to impose 10% tariffs (slated to increase to 25% on June 1) on eight European nations opposing his effort. Using such economic coercion to promote an unjust goal is an additional injustice. In addition to unjustly punishing the European allies, it will also harm numerous US businesses and consumers, much as Trump's previous tariff increases are doing.
This use of tariffs is also illegal. The likely mechanism Trump intends to use is International Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977 (IEEPA). As I have pointed out before, IEEPA doesn't authorize tariffs at all (the word isn't even mentioned in the statute). In addition, IEEPA can only be used to counter an "unusual and extraordinary threat" to America's economy, national security, and foreign policy.
There is nothing unusual and extraordinary about Danish rule over Greenland. It has existed for centuries! Nor, for reasons noted above, does it pose any kind of threat to the US. The utter ridiculousness of claims to the contrary is yet another example of why courts should not defer to executive invocations of extraordinary emergency powers, but rather should require the executive to prove the claimed emergency triggering the use of extraordinary authority actually exists. Otherwise, emergency powers would become blank checks the president can use whenever he feels like it, which is the exact opposite of how emergency powers are supposed to work.
In the event there is uncertainty about what IEEPA means, the "major questions" doctrine, which requires Congress to "speak clearly" when authorizing the executive to make "decisions of vast economic and political significance," mandates a narrow interpretation here. Tariffs imposed for the purpose of facilitating a war of conquest that would have the effect of undermining America's most important alliance are pretty obviously an issue vast economic and political significance.
Furthermore, if IEEPA really is a blank check for the president to impose tariffs in any situation he wants, the law would become unconstitutional. It would violate the nondelegation doctrine, which limits the extent to which Congress can transfer its powers to the executive.
These and other issues related to IEEPA are among the questions currently being considered the Supreme Court in the tariff case in which I am one of the attorneys for the plaintiffs. If we prevail, it may prevent Trump from using IEEPA to try to help him seize Greenland, as well.
Trump could potentially instead rely on Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962, which allows imposition of tariffs against imports that the Department of Commerce investigates and concludes "threaten to impair" national security. But, as with IEEPA, the claim that national security is threatened by imports here is absurd. If it were to be accepted by courts, Section 232 would also become a blank check for unlimited executive imposition of tariffs. Here, too, the major questions and nondelegation doctrines would weigh against the administration's position. The supposed threat is here is not actually the imports themselves, but Denmark's refusal to transfer Greenland to the US. And the claim that that is a threat is also ridiculous.
Finally, imposing massive tariffs on NATO allies in order to pressure them to abandon Denmark is yet another stupid and counterproductive move. It, too, alienates allies and undermines US national security far more than it could possibly benefit it. Having numerous European states as allies is infinitely more valuable than anything we could get from owning Greenland.
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Anyone who claims that the analogy to Hitler in the 1930s is anything other than precisely and directly on point has either been keeping his head up his ass or is a shill supporting totalitarian takeover and repositioning the country as an empire that extracts from smaller countries, an enpire with no friends, and no honor.
It's always Hitler with you.
What about Lenin? Mao? The Kim's? The literal whole history of Europe?
Hell, you can't even analogize it to the most recent - fucking Ukraine! No, it's always Hitler.
And it doesn't work anymore. You are all trying to play by 'rules for radicals' but that book described the rules in a completely different media environment. It's rules for playing chess - we're playing pickleball today though.
> It's always Hitler with you.
Why are you always the one defending and minimizing Hitler?
Because he's never been able to get laid.
Do any of those alternate analogies make this look good?
Sure, just for you, Trump can be on the Soviet side of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact this time rather than the Nazi side. It is a good idea to keep things fresh. However, according to my lawyer, you are now required to sign off all your posts with Comrade.
How about Putin? Xi? Clear inspirations to Trump.
I’ll answer. Hitler took over an established functioning Western liberal democracy with a bill of rights and a working legal system, and did so using mostly constitutional means. None of these others started with their countries in a similar situation.
That’s why I consider Hitler the best analogy to our country’s situation.
The USA has been an empire before you were born. Officially, in 1945, the USA became an empire through several means. One was to blast the two Japanese cities. Then the wordings used by the federal government changed, such as, the Department of Defense, and from then on the war footing never stopped, hence, EMPIRE. Civil liberties were curtailed through the further expansion of the Executive branch by Congress.
What Trump is doing is slight of hand and open furtherance no different than any other executive since Lincoln. He'll claw back some stuff, then sucker punch the fools who blink. He's a master of his future, and the next one in office will be in awe, speechless and unwilling to upset his position, so there'll be a lull in the empire's expanse. But, future predicting is dangerous.
This latest thing with Greenland is another crafty thrust which indicates a strong hand in bringing power over the other countries who fail to grasp their history. Expect civility. Give them that while punching away too. Just don't attack Russia with troops ; Putin blew it already, poor guy. He's extended past breaking, but will defend itself to no end.
Arguably the US became an empire in 1898, after the Spanish-American War
You are just a blathering idiot.
There is nothing crafty about taking an incredibly unpopular position despised by the majority of our own population for the reasons Trump stated to NY Times reporters—that he personally wants the psychological reassurance of ownership rather than consensual agreement for Greenland to continue to provide us with security assurances and allow us to freely station our troops as a NATO ally as they have for decades. Blowing up that alliance because he’s mad that the Norwegian Nobel Committee didn’t award him a peace prize—which is what he just wrote to the Norwegian Ambassador—is childish and pointless.
This isn’t three dimensional chess. It’s a peevish, selfish old man with no self control and the instincts of a tyrant surrounded by sycophants who never say no to him. Those of us who didn’t vote for this psychopath could see this coming. What’s the excuse of those who did vote for him?
Actually, the historical analogy that fits best is precisely the other way around, with Churchill, Mackenzie King and FDR playing the role of Reader Y's, er, Hitler.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_occupation_of_Iceland
The British occupied Iceland, against the will of the Icelandic government, because they were worried that the Germans (that would be Hitler's Germans) would occupy Iceland. The justification was analagous too - that Iceland could not defend itself against the Germans and was vital to British military interests.
They then handed Iceland over to the Canadians and then to..... the USA. Note that the US occupation was performed while the US was still a neutral, without the consent of the Icelandic government. That FDR, eh ?
There was a bit of a war on:
"On 9 April 1940, Germany overran Denmark, Iceland's former mother country, whose king was still the Icelandic head of state. After failing to persuade the Icelandic government to join the Allies, the British invaded on the morning of 10 May."
Also of note:
"The British promised compensation, favourable business agreements, non-interference in Icelandic affairs, and the withdrawal of all forces at the end of the war."
And:
"One year after the invasion, military forces from the still officially neutral United States were stationed on the island by agreement with the Icelandic government,..."
(italics added)
Generally speaking, I think there are a lot of things that are justified in a world war that aren't OK in peacetime.
"Generally speaking, I think there are a lot of things that are justified in a world war that aren't OK in peacetime."
How many have died in the Russian - Ukrainian war? More or less than died in WWII by April 1940?
There are two obvious distinctions between that and this.
1) The UK didn't annex Iceland.
2) The UK and Iceland weren't allies.
The only allied state Hitler conquered was Austria, and there seemed to be at least some support in Austria to join Germany.
I don't recall Hitler trying to conquer an allied country that was strongly opposed to joining Germany.
The USSR?
"No one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence is to repulse them as enemies."
Maximilien Robespierre - https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Maximilien_Robespierre:
"The most extravagant idea that can be born in the head of a political thinker is to believe that it suffices for people to enter, weapons in hand, among a foreign people and expect to have its laws and constitution embraced. No one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence is to repulse them as enemies."
"La plus extravagante idée qui puisse naître dans la tête d'un politique est de croire qu'il suffise à un peuple d'entrer à main armée chez un peuple étranger, pour lui faire adopter ses lois et sa constitution. Personne n'aime les missionnaires armés; et le premier conseil que donnent la nature et la prudence, c'est de les repousser comme des ennemis."
Consent of the governed, huh?
Now do illegal immigration, voting, and enabling fraud.
"Whatabout?"
> Now do illegal immigration, voting, and enabling fraud.
Which fraud do you think is greater: some immigrants in Minnesota, or the president of the United States openly accepting bribes in exchange for pardons and using the weight of US diplomacy to support his private business deals?
If he's "openly" accepting bribes (which I doubt), then it's not fraud.
It's a fraud on the American people.
Do you have an alternative theory for the pardons of Juan Orlando Hernández, Trevor Milton, Changpeng Zhao, and other big donors?
The Somalis.
Immigrants are governed too.
What part of illegal do you not understand?
We, the governed, don’t want them here and our law reflects that.
You mean, you have a policy preference, and that policy preference is borne out by law, and you were able to elect leaders to enforce that law?
So what was your argument supposed to be here, exactly?
Stop undermining the Will of the People and our Sacred Democracy with your illegal targeting of a lawful government function.
It is against the law to say what you people say about lawful government functions.
You mean any time someone says something nasty about the IRS, say, or some other agency, they are committing a crime?
What law is that?
"It is against the law to say what you people say about lawful government functions."
Which federal criminal statute(s) does that violate, DDH? Please cite by numbr.
“There is a man alone, without family, without children, without God…He builds legions but he does not build a nation. A nation is made up of families, a religion, tradition; it is made up out of the hearts of mothers, the wisdom of fathers; the joy and exuberance of children. …an all-swallowing state, disdainful of human dignities and the ancient structure of our race, sets itself up in place of everything else. And the man who, alone, incorporates in himself this whole state, has neither God nor honor nor a dynasty to conserve, nor a past to consult.”
“For a few months I was inclined to believe in National Socialism. I thought of it as a necessary fever. And I was gratified to see that there were associated with it, for a time, some of the wisest and most outstanding Germans. These, one by one, he has gotten rid of or killed. He has left nothing but a bunch of shirted gangsters…This man could bring home victories to out people each year without bringing them glory…But of our Germany, which was a nation of poets and musicians and artists and soldiers, he has made a nation of hysterics and hermits, engulfed in a mob and led by a thousand liars or fanatics…”
Kaiser Wilhelm, on Adolph Hitler
Sound familiar?”
Sounds a lot like they're talking about Biden.
You know, the guy who told you to make common cause with the Nazis you hate so much. But you never pushed back on that.
Hitler used the same approach to everyone to his left, accusing them of exactly the things he was doing as he was doing them.
Biden didn’t attempt to annex territory of a country his nation had guaranteed the territorial integrity of and sworn to protect by treaty. Hitler did. Trump is in the process of doing it. No other American President has. Any claim any former American president, any at all, is even remotely comparable totally falls apart.
But of course, your statement that Biden “told you to make common cause with the Nazis” — I gather uou mean the Ukrainians - totally gives you away as a Putin shill. Putin sure has a lot of chutzpah by imitating Hitler in making war on another country, then trying to call the VICTIM country Nazis. You really think you can get us to believe half-assed bullshit like that?
> Sounds a lot like they're talking about Biden.
Wow, you're still really upset that you had to wear a mask for a few months, huh?
What's worse is that this happened under Trump! MAGA has totally memory-holed the fact Trump was president in 2020, and keeps attributing bad things that they think happened in that year to Biden. So they act as if they’ve forgotten that COVID started under Trump and the massive disruptions (closures to the economy, stay inside rules, etc.) all happened under Trump. (To be sure, some continued under Biden.)
Only one difference from the democrats.
"National Socialist German Workers' Party"
The democrats are globalists, not nationalists.
It's hilarious to me that you think calling someone "socialist" is some kind of zinger insult.
I have occasionally called MAGAs the "National Socialist American Family Party."
It is past time to put and end to Trump's tenure. Trump should be impeached, convicted and removed from office. The People in our Constitution decreed that "[t]he President . . . shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction" any "high Crimes [or high] Misdemeanors." Trump is guilty of "Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States," which Congress (and a previous president) defined in 18 U.S.C. § 371.
As the Preamble emphasizes, "We the People" did "ordain and establish [our] Constitution" for particularly important purposes, including to "establish Justice" and to "provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves." The People in Article VI established that "the supreme Law of the Land" consists exclusively of our "Constitution" and federal "Laws" that were "made in Pursuance thereof" and "all Treaties."
Now, Trump is abusing our economic and military power to threaten our allies in violation of treaties that are part of the supreme law of the land. Too many times and too dangerously, Trump has trampled on our Constitution (especially the First Amendment), federal laws made in pursuance of our Constitution and treaties. It is past time to impeach Trump.
The whole thing is indefensible and stinks. And if you would support Trump's forcibly attempting to seize Greenland, you deserve to be ridiculed as a vile cultist moron.
Paging Josh Blackman!
A President who actually wants to secure strategic resources and areas vital for US and Western security? What the fuck could he be thinking?
Now I appreciate that some who have nothing but contempt and disdain for the US and would prefer the country were weakened from a security and economic perspective might have a different view.
> A President who actually wants to secure strategic resources and areas vital for US and Western security?
The US already has a base there and is welcome to build more. American businesses are already welcome to develop resources in Greenland but it's not cost effective.
So in what sense are are "strategic resources" not yet secure? As Trump himself admitted, he wants Greenland for his own "psychological" value, not for any tangible benefit to the country.
Yeah, we're welcome to expend billions US tax payer dollars to secure an area (25 % larger than Alaska and 1/4 the size of the continental US) essential to US and western security that Denmark absolutely cannot secure on its own.
Which do you think is more expensive: (a) to add security to Greenland in its current state, or (b) to start a war against our allies over Greenland, then replace all civilian administration in Greenland, then add security to Greenland, or (C) to buy Greenland, then replace all civilian administration in Greenland, and then add security to Greenland?
Don't know but I think it is suicidal for world security to allow Denmark to maintain control of so vital a territory that they absolutely cannot secure and defend themselves. And it is grossly unfair to expect the US to assume essentially 100 percent of the full cost and responsibility of Greenland's defense while Denmark enjoys 100 percent control.
1. The question I asked was easy. Your failure to answer it means that you're not smart enough to think about international diplomacy or you're willing to pretend to not know the answer to a question that would show the emptiness of your argument.
2. It's "vital" to control this territory that I guarantee you never thought about in your entire life until Trump told you to.
3. Denmark does not enjoy 100 percent control. Greenland is an autonomous territory.
4. It remains a mystery to me (and everyone else) what concrete benefit you think would be gained by "owning" Greenland. Do you really want to collect taxes from a country with the population of Cedar Park, Texas? Do you think the US will profit from operating Greenland's polar bear control program? Why not leave that stuff to locals and just build army bases?
1) Your question was not very nuanced focusing only on superficialities while ignoring the importance of US jurisdiction and control over critical minerals, sea lanes, and missile routes, as well as control of an important space/communications hub. Your ignorance of these aspects and the value of preventing US rivals and adversaries from getting a foothold here shows that you're not smart enough to think about the full scope of the matter or you're willing to ignore issues that would show the emptiness of your argument.
2) Whether and when I appreciated how vital this area is to US and western security is irrelevant although I can pretty much guarantee that you're only opposed to this because President Trump is for it.
3) Illustrates your ignorance. Denmark absolutely enjoys sovereign control. Denmark retains 100 % authority over foreign policy, security/defence policy, and overall security matters, including the framework for U.S. and NATO military presence in Greenland.
4) Again illustrates your ignorance. Greenlands importance is noted above. To sum up again that is vital for early warning, missile defense, critical resources, and control of key North Atlantic and Arctic routes that are essential to U.S. and broader Western security planning. US rivals/adversaries are devoting serious resources to control polar arctic area navigation. Why are you even commenting on this matter given your complete fucking ignorance?
1. I asked my question only because you brought up the question of financial cost ("we're welcome to expend billions US tax payer dollars"). I agree that financial cost is not of paramount concern, although I don't think that I'd go so far as to call it a "superficiality." But if cost is so superficial, why did you even bring it up?
2. No, actually, I oppose all threats to violently take over sovereign countries without the consent of the governed, no matter who proposes it. I oppose it in Greenland, I oppose it in Ukraine, and I oppose it in Palestine. The fact that you're trying to pin "TDS" on me reveals how little thought you've put into this currently colonialist push. And I do think it's relevant when you reached these conclusions about Greenland. If Greenland was really so essential for the US, it would have been essential two years ago, and we would have begun this discussion before Trump. But we didn't, because there are only two people involved in discussing Greenland: (a) those who know that Trump's quest to own Greenland is needless self-aggrandizing intended to soothe Trump's ego and (b) those who know and won't admit it.
3. You said, and I quote, "Denmark enjoys 100 percent control." I said that was wrong, and it is. Greenland manages its own domestic affairs including education and, critically, resources. And typical for the conservative playbook, you then try to spin your own mistake by attacking me for my alleged "ignorance." You really are shameless.
4. You are not at all responding to my point. I didn't say that Greenland was unimportant, I said that owning it is unimportant. Everything you mentioned in terms of its geopolitical relevance can be accomplished under our current framework. Again, in a sad attempt to mask the fact that you are intentionally failing to respond to my point, you attack me for my "fucking ignorance," because just like Trump, the only move you have is "deny and attack." You are a pathetic human being and I feel sorry for anyone who knows you.
Cost is a factor but US jurisdiction and control would be a fundamentally better circumstance than the present situation in terms of securing Greenland. And if you think Greenland’s control over “education” or other domestic matters is in any way significant, you’re welcome to your views.
And some closing advice. If you don’t like anyone pointing out your TDS bias, then stop expressing your idiotic TDS bias. Now, since you seem to have regressed to basically insult laden rants, consider this exchange concluded. You may now feel free to fuck off.
A war with NATO will cause major damage to the US. Greenland has almost nothing to do with our security.
It will also enable Russia to invade Europe without the threat of the US responding as part of NATO.
And why would that be a bad thing?
Western Europe is already gone, taken over by radical Islam, which Russia already has a major problem with. Ever hear of.Chechniea?
Maybe the stupidest post you’ve ever made.
It is not. I doubt it's in the top 10. It's a verrrrrry high bar to clear for Dr. Ed.
Yes, exactly. Why, just look at the Muslim presidents of France, Germany, and the UK. Notice how Sharia law is practiced everywhere west of the Rhine.
Or you pull your head out of your ass.
Western Europe is already gone, taken over by radical Islam,
I heard they are converting all the cathedrals to mosques. Notre Dame is next on their list.
You're insane, by the way.
What makes an illegal occupation of a protesting country more "secure" than using existing bases and negotiating commercial agreements?
Your security is the security of someone standing on someone else's neck which works as long as you're willing to keep their face firmly in the pavement.
Is the territorial seas that Trump wants.
First, a shipping route through a territorial seas is controlled by the country whose territorial sea it is. The reason why we don’t have an oil refinery in Eastport Maine is because the approach is through Canadian waters and they refused to allow oil tankers to go through their waters because they wanted to protect the Irving refinery on the other side of the river in St. John New Brunswick.
Second, a great deal of the easiest to access natural resources, not only oil and gas, but also rare earth minerals, is offshore.
Trump wants to these because he doesn’t want the Chinese to have these two things.
Is Denmark planning on letting the Chinese have it?
Denmark cannot defend Greenland.
So what? That is why we have NATO. Taking over a country because you could defend it better has never been a valid in world history.
In world history, countries defend themselves or they cease to exist. Greenland is not viable as an independent country. Denmark only exists because no one wants it.
Greenland is protected by the most powerful alliance on earth—NATO—and has U.S. troops occupying Thule Air Force Base. We are a part of an alliance that provides that an assault on any member nation is an assault on all of them. Blowing that up for Trump’s ego is senseless, which is why so few of your fellow Americans (if you happen to live here rather than in St. Petersburg or Moscow) agree with you.
Denmark cannot defend Denmark much less Greenland.
The Canadians already are in bed with a Chinese.
That Greenland and its resources need to be secure and protected for US and Western security is apparently not in dispute. Now, it may an open question as to whether President Trump's ultimate policy goal to achieve this end is the right one. Ok, fair enough, but positions here seem to assume this policy goal is not only bad, it's somehow "evil." And that every tool available to achieve this policy is indisputably illegal. That is TDS from those so corrupted by TDS that they don't recognize it anymore.
In some cases its TDS. In others its pro-PRC propaganda. Somins case is party TDS, and partly that he doesnt understand that China plays by mafia rules: no rules just raw extortion.
Is Ilya on the CCP payroll?
Whose payroll are you on?
Are you kidding?
Who would pay Dr. Ed to do anything?
Short lobster company.
> no rules just raw extortion.
Isn't that exactly what Trump is now doing to Denmark, with his tariffs?
It is not actually an open question as to whether President Trump's ultimate policy goal to achieve this end is the right one.
Nor does anyone think that US military security, including US troops in Greenland, nor US economic security, including US access to Greenland's minerals, is "evil." We already have both of those things. We might not soon, if Trump keeps it up.
Nor does anyone think that US military security, including US troops in Greenland, nor US economic security, including US access to Greenland's minerals, is "evil." We already have both of those things. We might not soon, if Trump keeps it up.
Recall the wisdom of the ancients: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Is Denmark planning on letting China have it?
Attacking an ally to seize its territory is indeed evil.
The U.S. obtained the U.S. Virgin Islands from Denmark in a treaty in which we agreed to recognize Danish Sovereignty over Greenland. Trump thinks he’s a tyrant who can violate U.S. laws and treaties whenever he wants to. He isn’t. This is a nation of laws and not men and we are better for it. If you want to live in a country where that isn’t the case, you have many to choose from.
And yes, you're a vile cultist moron.
You can tell it's a cult because there were precisely zero Americans who ever thought Greenland was important to have until Trump started talking about it.
You can tell they're leftist bullshit artists when they project their ignorance on their opponents.
When Trump first talked about Greenland in his first term, the cultists insisted that he was trolling the libs because it was obviously not a serious idea.
Why? Are borders important now?
"Kaiser Wilhelm"
LOL
The guy who invaded neutral Belgium and started a terrible destructive war which paved the way for Hitler and then a second terrible destructive war. The guy whose generals sent Lenin to St. Petersburg which caused nearly as much destruction and suffering than the wars.
That’s part of the point. The man was neither a liberal nor a pacifist. He was speaking from a very conservative point of view. As a traditional conservative, he could see through Hitler clearly enough to see that he was not one.
The turning point for Kaiser Wilhelm was the Night of the Long Knives, when Hitler’s thugs murdered (among other victims) not just a former Chancellor but his wife in cold blood. When he first came to power, the Kaiser made a deal with the leader of the Social Democrats by which Germany established the first social security and workers’ compensation system. While firmly believing in the prerogatives of the monarchy and making a total mess of foreign policy, the Kaiser saw himself as having a responsibility for the welfare of all Germans.
No one thought Hitler was a conservative. Wilhelm was a war criminal under the Nuremberg standard and a loathsome man.
"Kaiser made a deal with the leader of the Social Democrats by which Germany established the first social security and workers’ compensation system"
That was Bismarck, the new kaiser just did what Bismarck told him.
https://www.ssa.gov/history/ottob.html
“No one thought Hitler was a conservative.”
But the conservatives were the ones who put him into power anyway
They thought they could ride the tiger, yes.
No, Bob, they, and the Jews, we’re more afraid of the communists.
The Jews in interwar Germany were overwhelmingly communist.
Not all of them
Dr Ed. Is English your first language? Are you literate? Read the fucking words that I wrote. Then shut up. Thank you.
Pretty sure fascism is a conservative thing. Far-right, yes, but still those are conservatives who flock to it now.
The Soviet Union circa 1970 was a fascist state.
I take it your goal is to distance MAGA from fascism by labeling it a communist thing. So I guess dems are both communists and fascists in your world. Which is a disingenuous trick that will only fool those who like MAGA and nationalism and war and brutality.
Ed couldn't trick a two-dollar whore. I'm pretty sure he's just a day-drinking idiot who desperately wants approval and validation from the real shills.
Conservatives supported him. He was not a conservative by Burkean standards, but he was a conservative by European blood-and-soil standards. Just like MAGA.
Hitler was a socialist.
Stupid comment. He took over the socialist party and corrupted it, using it as a vehicle in his rise to power. That’s very well established. He clearly turned the Nazi party into a fascist party.
Not in favor of "seizing" Greenland.
On other hand, Somin's screeds are so bad they tend to persuade me of the opposite.
> On other hand, Somin's screeds are so bad they tend to persuade me of the opposite.
Translation: "owning the libs" is more important to me than rational foreign policy.
Trump isn't the first President to want Greenland, nor the first President to threaten to take it.
China loaned Greenland a truckload of money for an airport, which Greenland will never be able to pay back. China extorts people same as the mafia, to get footholds in strategic places. They are looking to leverage the airport into a base.
Fact is, US needs to control Greenland and keep it out of Chinese and Russian hands. THAT is rational foreign policy. Do I trust Denmark to do the right thing? no, lol. Their recent "show of force" was about three dozen people lol.
A compact of free association would be fine. Trump is very clumsy about it. Owning it would be strategically better.
If "owning the libs" means owning the Chinese PRC propping up a lot of these left wing progressives then guilty as charged.
As usual, Trump is focused on short-term transactions with no strategic thinking at all. Is "getting" Greenland worth losing the trust of our allies?
Shattering NATO and driving away our allies will do more to boost China than Greenland ever could. Trump either doesn't know that his actions are helping China, or he knows but doesn't care.
NATO wont "shatter" if Denmark sells it. Nothing but hyperbole.
Trust is already broken, which is a good first step to breaking up NATO. If you’re Russia.
Denmark has already said they won't sell it. Hence Trump making threats about taking Greenland "the hard way," imposing tariffs on European allies, and continually hinting about military action - a.k.a. shattering NATO.
BTW, what would "a compact of free association" do that we don't already have? We're already allowed to build military bases in Greenland. We're already investing in Greenland, with US-led mining operations and other interests. We already have an ironclad military alliance with Denmark and the rest of NATO.
Literally all Trump is doing is turning allies into enemies. How dumb would you have to be to think that somehow advances our interests?
If Greenland is effectively a USA territory already, then what is the objection to Trump's plan?
It's not "effectively a USA territory already." It's a friendly territory of a close ally, where we have military bases and strong commercial ties. It likely won't be for very long if Trump keeps it up.
If Greenland is effectively a USA territory already, then why does Trump need to alter the status quo?
According to Trump, there is psychological value in ownership. Just as he would rather own a hotel, than lease one from someone else.
That's not even true, though. Trump realized many years ago that he wasn't very good at running businesses but was good at marketing himself. So he stopped building things and started licensing his name to them.
According to Trump,
"Trump has said it, I believe it, that settles it".
I believe that there is psychological value *to Trump* in ownership. However, the president's job is not to use the resources of the United States to make himself feel good, but rather to do what is best for the people of the United States. Owning Greenland does nothing to help the people of the United States, psychologically or otherwise.
Trump is going to be President for three more years. We need to support his psychological well-being.
We need to support his psychological well-being.
Afraid of being sent to the cornfield, huh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Good_Life_(The_Twilight_Zone)
.....moved
China did not loan Greenland any money for an airport, and is not "looking to leverage the [nonexistent] airport into a base."
China TRIED to loan Greenland a truckload of money for an airport, the Danes didn't let the deal go through.
What about this is a "screed"? He thinks this would be a very bad idea, detailed the reasons why, and linked to multiple sources to support his arguments. What's the problem here?
I swear, the way people go on about Somin makes me feel like they're reading something completely different to me. What's with the animosity? Did he bully you in school or something?
He's a real libertarian. Some people here pretend they are and so his actual principles, in contrast to theirs, embarrass them.
Others just hate liberty.
"The initiation of war - perhaps even an illegal war - can sometimes be justified for the purpose of removing a brutally oppressive regime. "
Is this a Libertarian principal? Serious question, no snark intended.
In an interview with New York Times reporters on January 7, Trump explained that he wants not simply to work with Greenland, as the U.S. has done successfully for decades, but to own it. “Ownership is very important,” he told David E. Sanger.
“Why is ownership important here?” Sanger asked.
“Because that’s what I feel is psychologically needed for success,” Trump answered. “I think that ownership gives you a thing that you can’t do, whether you’re talking about a lease or a treaty. Ownership gives you things and elements that you can’t get from just signing a document, that you can have a base.”
How about a trade?
And then, of course, Trump says he wants Greenland, a resource-rich autonomous island that is part of the Kingdom of Denmark. In a January 8, 2026, piece in the New Yorker, Susan Glasser noted that Trump dumbfounded his advisors in 2018 by suggesting a trade of Puerto Rico for Greenland
https://substack.com/inbox/post/184847919
I appreciate the blog entry by the one regularly contributing member of the VC blog who consistently seems to be concerned about the Trump Administration.
With apologies to Bono and his comments on how Charlie Manson stole “Helter Skelter” from the Beatles,
“1,000 years ago the Vikings stole Greenland, (from who? Don’t stop me I’m rolling)
“We’re stealing it back”
That’s what technologically advanced Societies do to Primitive ones (See “United States, History of”)
Frank
Trump needs to be impeached before he starts a war with NATO.
The House can't even manage to override a couple of vetoes, but yeah.
Ha ha. I wondered what happened to those vetoes. Unanimously passed too!
I guess Tina Peters in jail is worth more to Colorado than water and illegal immigrants more important to the Miccosukee Tribe.
Typically "unanimously passed" just means "They pretended to hold a vote in a nearly empty chamber." Roll call votes are the only ones that really mean a vote was actually held.
"Unanimously passed" means no one objected. Thus no vote or debate needed. Basic parliamentary procedures.
You're not contradicting anything I said...
Impeachment has a lower vote threshold than overriding a veto.
Okay. So you are saying we have a chance?
No. Because the Republicans are spineless fascist fucks.
Under Article VI of the Constitution, "all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land." Thus, Trump and other US officials are required to obey both the North Atlantic Treaty and the 1917 treaty recognizing Denmark's sovereignty over Greenland.
For the record, the UN Charter also forbids invading foreign countries. In fact, it forbids invading all foreign countries, including Venezuela.
When has the law ever stopped Trump?
Vainglorious, unnecessary, needlessly provocative, stupid. No more need be said.
One of the strongest points against the “it’s fascism” thesis was Trumpism’s apparent lack of imperial or expansionist ambitions.
No. It never was. Imperial or expansionist ambitions is not part of the criteria for fascism.
MAGAs said that because they could not defend Trump against any legitimate list of fascist traits. Trump is a fascist by every definition.
I don't think we need fear NATO losing faith in us, they have already. They realize that Trump isn't satisfied just to preside over the USA. They also realize that Congress, so far, is in lockstep with him...Even too many court decisions have gone his way. Hopefully, there will be a blue tidal wave (and I've never voted for a Democrat) come November. Even so, it will take the next two years to undue his damage.
It's more likely to be a blue ripple, like the 2022 ripple. Maybe not even that in the Senate.
More than two years.
Then maybe Denmark will negotiate a deal.
All this talk of Greenland independence and consent of the governed is absurd. Only a few thousand Eskimos live there. They have no ability to manage Greenland. They do not even live in the parts that Trump is interested in. Greenland is mostly unused and unclaimed territory.
It is claimed. It is managed. It is fuckers like you that gives the US it's bad reputation.
Only a couple of coastal villages. The rest is up for grabs. America has a manifest destiny.
Roger S - another vile cultist moron
Far more important than Trump's mad dream of manifest destiny and foreign conquest, the U.S. has a Constitution that was written and ratified by the People for the purposes stated in the Preamble: "We the People" did "ordain and establish [our] Constitution" for particularly important purposes, including to "establish Justice" and to "provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves." The People in Article VI established that "the supreme Law of the Land" consists exclusively of our "Constitution" and federal "Laws" that were "made in Pursuance thereof" and "all Treaties."
Now, Trump is abusing our economic and military power to threaten our allies in violation of treaties that are part of the supreme law of the land. Trump shouldn't be given the chance to take us to war (military or economic) against our most important allies--especially when they're already combatting one of our most powerful enemies after it invaded and is destroying another nation.
Too many times and too dangerously, Trump has trampled on our Constitution (especially the First Amendment), federal laws made in pursuance of our Constitution and treaties. It is past time to impeach, convict and remove Trump from office.
The capacity of Dodger Stadium is larger than the population of Greenland.
I'm actually inclined to agree that Greenland has the right to keep Americans out, but if Greenland played be the rules America does, then we could take it over by simply sending people who claim to be refugees. If you recognize that Greenland has a right not to be conquered, you recognize that Ukraine has a right not to be conquered and you recognize that Israel has a right not to be conquered, then why can't you extend that same logic to the USA?
Or, put another way, why does Greenland object to having half a million or so Americans move in? Don't they know about all the economic benefits from immigration?
You have an idea. Maybe we can start deporting illegal aliens to Greenland.
There we go. A person can't be illegal and they're refugees, so Greenland can't possibly object.
There are a half million Americans who want to move to Greenland, get jobs working for Greenlanders and become Danish citizens?
Who knew?
I'm quite confident we could scare them up. Among other ideas, the choice could be given to either go to prison or go to Greenland and claim to be a refugee. That's basically what South American countries have been doing to the USA for decades, since it's cheaper for them to simply send rapists and murders north than to imprison them. Now, if you see problems with this rather farcical proposal, then great. Apply the same logic to the USA.
No South American countries have ever been doing that to the US.
MAGAs get dumber and dumber each day. They need to be purged.
That is Somin's pitch. Americans are ignorant. Too stupid to vote correctly. Replace them with Third World migrants.
Third World migrants have more honor, courage, and integrity than a MAGA has in their pinky. I happily welcome them.
They call the Great Replacement a racist conspiracy theory, but then they gloat that it's happening. They want it both ways.
If you send half a million Americans to Greenland, the polar bear population will have 100 million pounds of extra food. Let's start by sending the Republicans.
How many false premises can Ilya cram into one article?
First-It is a false premise that Greenland becoming American territory would alienate allies.
Second-It is a false premise that the United States will unwillingly impose its rule on an unwilling population.
Third- It is a false premise that an American acquisition of Greenland would violate any law whatsoever.
Ilya specializes in arguments based on false premises. For example, he claimed tariffs were bad because they caused inflation, unemployment, and led to recession.
Ilya writes a straw man article to vent his infinite supply of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Ilya blatantly ignores any element of proposals put forth by the Trump administration that contradict the straw man he trots out in this article.
The endless question is how such a completely unhinged individual consistently posting inaccurate arguments based on fallacies maintains a hold on a position in higher education supported by taxpayer dollars.
Somin is a sad commentary on the massive decline in the academy.
MAGAs are the dumbest lying shits on the planet.
Somin is a Marxist Russian Jew. He will make any argument to promote the destruction of America.
He is an libertarian American atheist, you antisemitic POS.
He's not a libertarian, nor is he an American. I'm not interested in his religious beliefs, or lack thereof, one way or another.
He is a libertarian; most people here are just too dumb to know what that means. He is 100% the opposite of a Marxist. And he is, of course, an American.
Someone who wants to fill America with worthless third world savages from Latin America and Africa who will turn America in a statist dump is neither an American, nor a libertarian.
They are still better than MAGAs.
No, Somin is not American. He is about as American as those Somali welfare scammers. Libertarians believe in freedom, but he keeps arguing that American freedoms are evil. And he is a Jewish atheist. Apparently Judaism allows its followers to be atheists, as long as they subscribe to a sufficient number of Jewish practices and causes.
You don't even need to subscribe to any Jewish practices or causes. You only have to have a Jewish mother.
I left this awful group of demons decades ago and joined a church, and these assholes always try to pull me back in.
He has never once argued that.
Roger, you missed one of the primary principles addressed (repeatedly) in our Constitution. Religious or political beliefs cannot be used to discriminate in the definition of who is an American.
That's why our original Constitution (Article VI) expressly established and emphasized that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
That's why our original Constitution was almost immediately amended (with the First Amendment) to expressly establish and emphasize that no federal employee can punished, penalize or otherwise discriminate against anyone for any religious or political thoughts or any expression or communication of such thoughts or assembly or association for such purposes.
That's why the Fourteenth Amendment expressly established that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." And "No State" has any power to "make or enforce any law" that "abridge[s any] privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States" or to "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" or to "deny to any person" absolutely "equal protection of the laws."
completely unhinged individual consistently posting inaccurate arguments based on fallacies
Pretty good description of yourself, not Ilya.
> It is a false premise that Greenland becoming American territory would alienate allies.
That is not his premise. (It would help if you read the article before responding to it.) The issue is instead that Greenland becoming American territory against their will would alienate allies, and it obviously would.
> It is a false premise that the United States will unwillingly impose its rule on an unwilling population.
That is exactly what Trump has threatened to do. Whether he will or not remains to be seen, but it is not a possibility that can be excluded.
> It is a false premise that an American acquisition of Greenland would violate any law whatsoever.
It really depends how they acquire it, doesn't it? Again, Trump has threatened military invasion, repeatedly, in stark terms. Would you agree that would violate, at least, the NATO charter? To say nothing of the Constitution, which authorizes only Congress to declare war, and they have never delegated power to invade an ally who poses who threat whatsoever.
"If the US is required to help defend Denmark against attack, it is obvious that it also has an obligation not to attack Denmark's territory itself."
Actually, that's not obvious to me at all. I would be inclined to say that in the event that the USA DOES attack Greenland/Denmark, the USA is required by treaty to provide all the same support that the USA would offer Alaska, Maine, Minneapolis, or Portland if the USA attacked THOSE locations.
And the USA attacking those locations might actually happen someday, for any number of reasons. Civil war, counter-attacks against Russian/Chinese invasion, civil rights issues escalating to paratroopers in schools, badly miscommunicated orders for a routine military training exercise, zombie apocalypse, biowarfare agents on the loose...
The US is not allowed to attack Greenland/Denmark. If they did the rest of NATO would be will withing their rights defend Greenland/Denmark with all they have. And I and most Americans would cheer NATO on, for Trump would (is) also an enemy of the US.
One could make an argument that the US military is obligated by oath to defend the US against all domestic enemies (Trump).
With all 20 of their troops? There is no NATO. For all intents and purposes, NATO forces are U.S. forces.
Maybe those Nato countries should take the USA's side, if the USA invades Greenland.
The US would lose a war with NATO. They have a combined military almost the size of the US, and Mexico, Russia, and China would join it.
And we would deserve to lose.
LOL, lay off the rock.
You're an awful human being.
MarkJawz, are you triggered, my delicate little snowflake?
Everything Trump has ever done is evil, illegal, and counterproductive. Trump himself is evil and counterproductive, and, because of section 3 of the 14th Amendment, is president illegally. Do you have anything to tell us that we don't know?
Do you remember Joe Biden? He was President only a year ago. We still do not know who was running the White House.
The closest analogy to Trump's proposed annexation of Greenland is the American conquest of Native American tribes in the 19th century. Eighty-nine percent of Greenlanders are Inuit -- in other words, they are essentially Native American. Like the Native Americans in the 19th Century, they overwhelmingly oppose their land becoming part of the United States. As with the Native American tribes in the 19th Century, Trump proposes to take the land against their will.
TDS, ten years now and counting.
Today I learned that "maybe we shouldn't invade our allies" is evidence of TDS.
I don’t know what Trump is trying to do. I assume he is making outrageous statements in order to get into a good negotiating position. Using force to take Greenland is unwise. But I can see a lot of good reasons for the US to take sovereignty over the island.
> I don’t know what Trump is trying to do. I assume he is making outrageous statements in order to get into a good negotiating position
Don't kid yourself that Trump is playing some kind of 4D chess. He is really as stupid and dangerous as he appears.