The Volokh Conspiracy
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McCarthy: "'We Intended the Strike to Be Lethal' Is Not a Defense"
NRO's Andrew McCarthy on why strike on defenseless survivors of strike on drug boat was "at best, a war crime under federal law."
Over at NRO, Andrew McCarthy largely agrees with Jack Goldsmith's conclusion that the the reported attack on survivors of a drug boat strike was unlawful. According to McCarthy, "If this happened as described in the Post report, it was, at best, a war crime under federal law." He writes further:
even if we stipulate arguendo that the administration has a colorable claim that our forces are in an armed conflict with non-state actors (i.e., suspected members of drug cartels that the administration has dubiously designated as foreign terrorist organizations (FTOs)), the laws of war do not permit the killing of combatants who have been rendered hors de combat (out of the fighting) — including by shipwreck.
To reiterate, I don't accept that the ship operators are enemy combatants — even if one overlooks that the administration has not proven that they are drug traffickers or members of designated FTOs. There is no armed conflict. They may be criminals (if it is proven that they are importing illegal narcotics), but they are not combatants.
My point, nevertheless, is that even if you buy the untenable claim that they are combatants, it is a war crime to intentionally kill combatants who have been rendered unable to fight. It is not permitted, under the laws and customs of honorable warfare, to order that no quarter be given — to apply lethal force to those who surrender or who are injured, shipwrecked, or otherwise unable to fight.
A key point here is that McCarty is not relying upon UN-affiliated entites nor unincorporated international law for his conclusion. Rather, he is resting his contentions on federal law (including those portions of the laws of war or international law that have been formally ratified by the Senate).
The laws of war, as they are incorporated into federal law, make lethal force unlawful if it is used under certain circumstances. Hence, it cannot be a defense to say, as Hegseth does, that one has killed because one's objective was "lethal, kinetic strikes."
And, it is worth noting, that federal law imposes the most severe penalties on war crimes.
McCarthy also highlights the fundamental irrationality of the Administration's policy, particularly given the constraints of federal law
. . . if an arguable combatant has been rendered hors de combat, targeting him with lethal force cannot be rationalized, as Bradley is said to have done, by theorizing that it was possible, at some future point, that the combatant could get help and be able to contribute once again to enemy operations. . . .
if the Post report is accurate — Hegseth and his commanders changed the protocols after the September 2 attack, "to emphasize rescuing suspected smugglers if they survived strikes." This is why two survivors in a subsequent strike (on October 16) were captured and then repatriated to their native countries (Colombia and Ecuador).
This was a ludicrous outcome: under prior policy, the boat would have been interdicted, the drugs seized, and the operators transferred to federal court for prosecution and hefty sentences. Under the Trump administration's policy, if the operators survive our missiles, they get to go back home and rejoin the drug trade. But put that aside. The point is that, if the administration's intent to apply lethal force were a defense to killing shipwrecked suspected drug traffickers, the policy wouldn't have been changed. It was changed because Hegseth knows he can't justify killing boat operators who survive attacks; and he sends them home rather than detaining them as enemy combatants because, similarly, there is no actual armed conflict, so there is no basis to detain them as enemy combatants.
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" if an arguable combatant has been rendered hors de combat, targeting him with lethal force cannot be rationalized,"
Of course it can be "rationalized." For that is precisely what the administration is doing. What it can't be is justified.
Does the National Review have editors anymore?
The National Review commentary is utter horse shit premised on a WP hit piece from more anonymous sources. And in fact, the WP was advised by the administration that the entire narrative was false. As noted by John Hinderaker (from powerlineblog.com):
1) The story is based on anonymous “sources,” i.e., deep state leakers. Unless and until someone steps forward, identifies himself, tells us what he knows and how he knows it, and takes responsibility for his statements, I assume everything in the story is probably a lie.
2) Given the lack of regard for the “law of armed conflict” that is consistently shown by our enemies, my reaction is: boo hoo.
3) Is there really a “law of armed conflict” that says you can only shoot at a target once? And if someone escapes an initial bombing, or burst of fire, or whatever, he is home free and can’t again be targeted? I’d like to see that law. I haven’t seen any news source cite to it.
4) If such a rule exists and applies in the present context, it is stupid. If it applies, and one were determined to follow it, it would incentivize a massive first strike that would eliminate any chance of survivors. And would also increase the risk of collateral, unintended damage.
(As Rush used to say, for those of you in Rio Linda, the text following the colon is a block quote)
5: If the goal is to destroy the drugs, every piece of floatsam is a legitimate target.
Why would someone program a bot to repost other people's work online but refuse to link to the original source?
Why would an asshole post such a response? Because the asshole has no substantive response and simply wants to distract. Because he's an asshole. And an idiot.
At least you're not falsely accusing me of plagiarism again asshole. Or are you trying to insinuate that?
So I guess we'll never know why the Rivabot refuses to post links.
Remind me again, is there any legal liability for false accusations of plagiarism?
Since the great Maha Rushie never had to deal with a stupid asshole quite like crazy Dave, allow me to make a correction. For the benefit of those in Rio Linda and assholes like crazy Dave, powerlineblog.com is a website, which posts articles. And the work of the author of the above quoted text is posted on that site. Alternatively, the really challenged could use a search engine (look it up if anyone doesn't know what that means, but google would suffice) to search for the text.
Now, of course, and this is the important part, all that effort would have no real purpose because the text is quoted above and anyone who has an issue with the ideas in that text has all the information needed to respond. And they're welcome to do so. Anyone but asshole.
Rush almost never had guests on….his last guest was Dickwad Cheney together for eternity!!! And now they are burning in hell!! Burn baby burn!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki
Plenty of people are not fans of that, but collateral damage isn't the same thing as intentional murder.
And what is it with you and your obsession with whattabouting? You've had the fallacy explained to you many times.
Collateral damage implies the desired target was hit.
It wasn't.
Bingo! The 9 little kids were “collateral damage” of the intended target of the little American girl that Trump assassinated for calling him a “poop head”. America, fuck yeah!
American Taliban set the precedent…don’t let them obfuscate with that example when Trump assassinated his little sister and 9 of her little friends and a SEAL was lost in the operation in which no actionable intelligence was gathered and Trump even lied to the Gold Star father!
Whataboutism is nearly always an admission that the action being compared to is indefensible.
It's the equivalent of the playground taunt, "So's your old man."
Only if it's accurately used.
Whataboutism needs to change the topic. If it's the SAME topic, and someone just claims "whataboutism" to avoid the comparison, it's a sign they have a poor argument.
If someone claims to support a Toyota Camry over a Honda Civic, and the person says "Well, a Honda Civic burns gasoline which contributes to global warming!" And the response is....a Toyota Camry burns gasoline too...
It's the height of silliness for the Camry supporter to claim "That's just whataboutism! We're focusing on the Civic and why it's a bad car!"
The topic is this admin did a bad thing.
Your response is 'Obama did similar thing' does not effect whether what Trump did was wrong or not.
Doubly irrelevant in this case when the thing isn't very similar at all.
And my response to the assertion that the Trump administration did anything wrong in the recent bombing is that it is a bullshit lie made up by the WP’s anonymous sources. As noted above, “Is there really a ‘law of armed conflict’ that says you can only shoot at a target once? And if someone escapes an initial bombing, or burst of fire, or whatever, he is home free and can’t again be targeted? I’d like to see that law. I haven’t seen any news source cite to it.” No, actually there is no fucking rule that says you can only shoot or bomb a lawful target once, and that someone who survives an initial, lawful attack is automatically free to go.
It’s a good thing no one is claiming that such a rule exists,
1) affect, not effect.
2) The topic is the question of potentially illegal orders. If your only concern is "this administration" and their illegal orders, and you don't care a damn about what other administrations in the US have done...well....it's a very weak case you're making.
3) How individuals responds to similar actions in the past influences how we should respond to them in the future.
The topic in question is a specific order. You want to talk about a different topic, because you can't defend this one.
The legal question of is this a war crime doesn't turn on previous events, unless there is a legal precedent you want to bring in.
And your examples of past events have thusfar been off-point hypotheticals or a single off-point example.
You're desperate to deflect to some wider scoped issue or some other example, but all you got is straws for the grasping.
Man, I don't know how many times we've had to point out to you that you're not the goalpost czar, and don't get to rule out mentioning anything you don't want mentioned, and you keep trying anyway.
Pointing out how a post has changed the subject from the issue in the OP is not arrogating some kind of authority to myself.
It's a common tactic among you lot to deflect rather than defend the indefensible, so it happens a lot.
I'm hardly the only one to notice it.
The proper whataboutism is Biden with the strike on the family in Kabul after Abbey Gate…and that was a just strike even though it was a mistake because like Trump’s assassination of a little American girl in Yemen it was properly predicated by the CIA/Pentagon determination that the individual driving the vehicle was a threat. Now if you found a transcript of Biden ordering the Pentagon to just create a target to make Biden look tough after Abbey Gate then that would be an illegal strike. The military isn’t coming up with these targets and so these aren’t like Trump killing the little American girl and a SEAL dying in the raid and Biden killing the family or Bush killing American soldiers with a bomb in Afghanistan that were the first combat deaths after 9/11 or Obama killing an entire wedding party. Mistakes happen and in war the mistakes tend to be deadly.
And what is it with you and your obsession with whattabouting? You've had the fallacy explained to you many times.
Tom Nichols explained it pretty clearly:
Armchair seems to have skipped directly to level 4, although I might have missed something. But it's the standard issue-evading rhetoric, and not to be taken seriously.
I think whatabout is higher up in the cycle, and it's missing 5. Of course it happened and it's great that it did.
Trump assassinated his little sister you fucking moron.
So much tears spilled over these drug traffickers. When future archeologists dig up this civilization they're going to think George Floyd and Narcotraffickers were our version of Jesus and Buddha.
No, the tears are spilled over violating the rule of law.
I'm probably the last one to defend the rule of law, which is just a myth covering up rule of men. But this strike violated federal law. It was illegal. It was murder. This worse than Obama targeting and killing an American citizen.
If you can't tell the difference, then you are not an American. Hie thee hence, blackguard.
The rule of law does NOT say that you can only hit a target once. The boat was still there. Ergo, a follow up strike. If we missed a Japanese pilot at Pearl Harbor (no declared war) then you think shooting at the plane again is a war crime. So sick of you America hating PsOS.
Ghost,
Terrible analogy.
1. Your hypo: Japanese pilot, flying a plane. We miss. And we shoot at him again. Answer: OF COURSE that's fine. No one is arguing otherwise. That would be moronic. He is STILL IN THE BATTLE!!!!
2. An accurate hypo: Japanese pilot, flying same plane. We shoot at him, and miss. Then, his plane engines misfire, and he crash-lands in Hawaii. He crawls out of the wreckage, and is lying 50 metres away from the destroyed plane, screaming in pain, with his gun and his knife still inside the burning plane. We come upon him, and decide to shoot him and kill him. Answer: THAT'S A WAR CRIME. This is a soldier that is not currently fighting us, and has no weapon to currently fight us.
The humane thing to do is take him into custody, and try to heal him. The inhumane thing to do is to just leave him, in pain and helpless, with his broken legs (or whatever). The war crime thing to do is to kill this undoubtedly-no-current-threat person. If you can't see the differences, then I'm afraid that you're the piece of shit. And I'd delight in being the lawyer to prosecute you . . . if for no other reason than I want my own Americans to be saved by the enemy in a similar situation. Since you are a fucking asshole, who would want the Americans killed (obviously, you're aware that the enemy would start to act as amorally as you), I'd love for you to spend the next 50+ years in a prison.
You can try to justify your awful behavior to whomever is sodomizing you that particular day.
Actually a better analogy is a shooter just killed 100 school children and a citizen took a second shot and killed him after the first disabled him. And you would weep tears over the mass murderer while being 'delighted' to destroy the life of the citizen vigilante. What a heroic compassionate person you are.
Ummmm...you OK, man?
You've always strawmanned the other side a lot, but you're leaning into some out there demonization. No one has said anything like that. The alleged drug running is cocaine. I'm not into legalizing it, but supplying it is in no way the same as gunning down 100 school children.
This nonsense is like psyching yourself up to have a break; you need to chill.
In fact, there was a Japanese POW captured at Pearl Harbor, from a midget submarine. Yes, it would have been a war crime to kill him after he escaped his midget submarine, unless he was still attacking.
You lose, loser.
If it even happened, Trump is likely going to say cartel narcotraffickers are a class of combatants not covered by the law for nationstate and semiregular combatants and can be double tapped at sea just like people double tapped on land and nobody GAF just like Bush II did and just like many of countries have already unofficially done. Thats the law. Now are you going to bring up a valid discussion point against this or just cry over narcotraffickers some more like the other leftoids here?
like people double tapped on land and nobody GAF just like Bush II did
When?
"My point, nevertheless, is that even if you buy the untenable claim that they are combatants, it is a war crime to intentionally kill combatants who have been rendered unable to fight. "
If the combatants are still alive, not unconscious, not sick, not in custody, not surrendered, etc....are they really "Hors de combat"? If they are "trying to escape"....they are not.
If you can drop a Hellfire missile by drone onto a group of people who are at a party in Yemen, presenting no clear immediate threat to US interests, without a legal issue....how is it different if the same group of people are on the open ocean?
Read the OP, maybe.
If they are survivors of a shipwreck, they are really hors de combat. That is explicitly the case; no extrapolation or the like required. The laws of war define them to be hors de combat.
Really? Let's give a hypothetical here.
Let's imagine that 5 of the perpetrators of 9/11 are on a small ship near to the shore. They are identified via done, and a missile strike is sent in to kill them. The strike destroys the ship. However, upon review, 3 are left alive, in good health, and are spotted swimming towards shore. Estimates are they will make it easily. Unless action is taken.
Is the "Rules of war" rationale that these 3 individuals cannot be struck again, so long as they are in the water? But as soon as they hit the land, they can be?
If they can be captured, then yes. Also, not at all the same scenario as discussed here.
And if they may not be able to be captured? What then?
Again, the claim was "If they are survivors of a shipwreck, they are really hors de combat." No conditions about "being able to be captured".
I've given a direct example of people who are "survivors of a shipwreck". But...you put conditions on it. Rather than just saying "Yes, they can't be killed".
So...is it true? Or do the individuals need to "be able to be captured"?
Moron, under Obama you whined about Obama not sending them Gitmo!! I guess it was Obama’s level of melanin that clouded your judgment. 😉
And if they may not be able to be captured? What then?
This is just trolling. None of your hypotheticals are anywhere close to the realities, or any other realities.
Five guys are on a ship hit by a missile strike. Miraculously, three survive uninjured and are swimming to shore. Good swimmers I guess. Further, we have no means of capturing them, even though we know exactly where they are. No ships, no boats, no helicopters, no people with big guns waiting on shore for the survivors to arrive. WTF are we doing with that humongous defense budget?
The only thing you left out was that the survivors can fly at supersonic speeds, so can easily escape.
Ignoring the fact that...people can swim...is hardly attributing them to have "supersonic speed.
Moreover, let's say they are 1/2 a mile off-shore. We don't really know. An "intermediate" swimmer can do that in 1/2 an hour. It's very possible that we don't have assets in place to get to a random place in the sea in 1/2 an hour. Especially a capability that can perform a sea rescue. That's part of the reason we use all those drones. We actually can't be "everywhere".
"Is the "Rules of war" rationale that these 3 individuals cannot be struck again, so long as they are in the water?"
yes
"But as soon as they hit the land, they can be?"
Maybe. Not if they are stranded on a coast.
Note this is similar to people parachuting from a disabled aircraft, who are protected in the air. Once on the ground, they must be given a chance to surrender, but after that they are fair game.
Ah. So, so long as they have 1 foot in the ocean, they cannot be attacked...ever again?
So, Mr. Bin Laden could be "shipwrecked" (and it doesn't need to be by hostile forces, could just happen naturally), then sit with 1 foot in the ocean off his sea-side estate and say "You can't attack me. I've been shipwrecked".
I don't know where the line is precisely. But since neither the guys in the Caribbean nor the guys in your hypo have one foot on land, I'm not sure why it matters.
Not knowing where that line is precisely is the problem. Quite a big one.
It's easy to come in after the fact and say "Oh yeah, THIS is a violation of the rules of war". What's much harder (and actually necessary) is doing that analysis beforehand. Simply linking to a document, absent any examples is basically avoiding the question.
One way to approach such a question is to take extreme examples on both sides. One clearly being a violation of the rules of war. And one clearly not being a violation. Then working one's way towards the middle and that proverbial line. To give an example, an order demanding the rape and murder of a unarmed village of 30 people surrounded by a troop of 200....clearly a violation of the rules of war. On the other hand, if an enemy commander is "shipwrecked", makes their way to shore, a friendly (to him) base, and has just one foot in the water, and is then hit by a bombing run...not a violation of the rules of war.
That's why the example is useful. It provides an extreme that is "not" a violation of the rules of war. Once that can be agreed on, the proverbial line can be moved closer towards the middle.
But not knowing "precisely where the line is"...then demanding the troops "not obey illegal orders"....when they don't know "precisely where the line is"...that's an issue.
Everyone knows firing at survivors trying to surrender is a war crime.
This is not a fuzzy line.
As you do, you are rolling into hypotheticals that do not touch this situation. There is even a case basically directly on point.
"Everyone knows firing at survivors trying to surrender is a war crime."
Are they trying to surrender? Do we have evidence of that?
Fair point - hors de combat includes those taken out of the fight through injury or incapacitation, not just those who surrender.
Executing such people, that's a war crime. It's not a fuzzy line. Because of that going back to affirmatively kill them.
Did you notice all your off-topic hypotheticals include people able to fight or more of a failure to rescue situation? Think on why you're so compelled to go off-topic...
hors de combat includes those taken out of the fight through injury or incapacitation, not just those who surrender.
Also, quite explicitly, shipwreck survivors.
"Also, quite explicitly, shipwreck survivors."
Addressed above, in reference to what exactly is a "shipwreck survivor" and for how long.
Addressed with your 'Mr. Bin Laden' bullshit?
You chose him for emotionalism, not for any factual clarity.
Quit trying to throw up chaff.
WTF are you trying to prove, Armchair? That there might, in some scenario you make up, be some ambiguity about whether someone could be targeted? Well probably, though you haven't come up with anything remotely realistic yet.
But so what, not only have you failed to come up with an analogy that makes sense on its own terms, you have failed to come up with one similar to the incident under discussion.
Just pointless trolling.
Not knowing where that line is precisely is the problem. Quite a big one.
Not in this case. You can draw all the gray areas you want. That doesn't obscure the fact that there are also black and white areas. This case is clearly in the black.
Is it?
See, for me, if you can take drone and attack a group of people attending a wedding or party in order to kill the selected people....but you can't do the same when they are swimming in the ocean...it doesn't make much sense.
Bush droned two wedding parties in Afghanistan in 2008…in one of the operations it took 3 bombs over several minutes and they first killed the children in front, and then another bomb killed women, and finally the men…because if they didn’t kill the men the men would have spent their lives seeking revenge!! Oh, and then Republicans flew Afghans into America!?!!! What could go wrong?? 😉
An AK-47 will still fire even if dunked in salt water, won't it?
They are still lethal threats anyone they encounter.
The drugs are still a legitimate target if not destroyed, i.e. sunk.
Repatriating survivors has a psychological effect -- it will discourage others!
at best, a war crime under federal law
Not great, Bob.
The dropping of the first bomb on the ship is not at issue. Rather, the issue is killing, rather than capturing the survivors. There was no follow up in Yemen.
Also, it is feasible to rescue people at sea. I Yemen, not so much.
It actually is, although that's not the primary focus of this discussion. There is no lawful authority for the president to tell the military, "I think that guy is breaking the law; go kill him."
As I perceive it, the argument here is that, regardless of whether the first strike was legal, the second strike was independently, unambiguously illegal.
Yes.
It is plenty feasible to rescue people in Yemen.
Meh, it’s the torture debate all over again. If torture is for gathering information we could simply kill them instead of detaining them and so from their perspective it’s better to be tortured and remain alive. And with respect to false confessions which is what Bush/Cheney were actually using torture for…using puppies licking a person’s face to get a false confession is just as unAmerican as using torture.
You're gonna need a bigger hoax
"Drone imagery showed the initial Hellfire engagement incinerating the vessel from bow to stern, with no signs of life amid the inferno. No “two men clinging to wreckage,” no improvised follow-up." -
@SecWar
I mean, this admin never lies so this truly ends the discussion.
So, they could be lying about these so-called strikes. The pictures could be cleverly staged. Is anyone there to witness these so-called strikes ?
And, if they are lying, then they could be telling the truth.
One of the reason that most lobster boats went Diesel 40-50 years ago is that gasoline is (a) explosive and (b) vapor is heavier than air.
They have four thirsty motors and quite a bit of gasoline aboard.
That alone would be lethal if it ignited.
Does it matter much whether or not the actions taken are war crimes under federal law? Trump was on board for these actions, so he'd be likely to apply the “He who saves his Country does not violate any Law” principle to pardon everyone at any risk of being charged with any federal crime(s).
Yes. This is what confuses me about the “it’s a hoax” comments.
In MAGA lingo, "hoax" is anything they don't like. It is the new "fake news".
But they DO like these boat murders! It’s all over these threads.
I don't ! Deaths are to be avoided. Interdiction may cause deaths to the interdictors besides the cost of holding them and the trials, but it would save the poor fish who are now hooked on the cocaine ! "Fred, I can't feel my gills. That's OK Bob, we can swim faster now."
It might not matter regarding consequences because Trump pardons people (he might miss someone), etc., but it matters as to wrongdoing.
"Does it matter much whether or not the actions taken are war crimes under federal law? Trump was on board for these actions, so he'd be likely to apply the 'He who saves his Country does not violate any Law' principle to pardon everyone at any risk of being charged with any federal crime(s)."
It matters conditionally. Trump could decline to pardon, or he can always screw up an intended pardon.
It may also matter in the event that control of one or both houses of Congress changes hands next fall. Pete Hegseth deserves to be impeached.
"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?"
Occasionally, the guy gets something right.
Anyway, when attempting to rationally discuss these extra-judicial killings with a Trump supporter, bear the quote above in mind. You're not going to get anywhere.
As I said above— this is why “it’s a hoax” confuses me. Hegsbreath at the very least, seems to be at least slightly concerned about downstream consequences. Perhaps he was hoping for a nice European vacation in future? People end up in The Hague for things like this.
Trump supporters come in various shades, so it somewhat depends.
There is a certain "can't do no wrong & even if they did wrong I don't really care" quality that arises.
I find it somewhat annoying. Sometimes, supporters don't even want to give an inch (e.g., Trump v. U.S. really didn't do much), even if it wouldn't change much (it did something, just correctly) in their view.
But let's have a lot of fun with some hypotheticals here.
1.) A group of Al Qaeda terrorists are on a speed boat.
a) Can the speed boat be hit via done strike?
2) A group of Al Qaeda terrorists are on a speed boat. It's blown up, but several survive, and are seen swimming towards shore.
a) Can the terrorists be shot via drone?
b) Can they be shot via drone when they stand up out of the water?
3) A US special forces group attacks an Al Qaeda camp in a third party country. They kill a number of suspected terrorists. In the last room, they come upon a wounded terrorist without a weapon.
a) Can they simply shoot and kill the wounded terrorist, rather than try to apprehend him alive?
Exactly, you would most likely want to keep them alive for intelligence gathering purposes because they are a real threat. With the drug boat they pose no threat and so they have no value for intelligence and so we are killing them just to make a political statement for Trump. Great hypothetical because it shows Trump is killing foreigners not to protect Americans but to make his base happy. And Republicans criticized Obama for killing terrorists instead of capturing them because they believed Obama didn’t want to have to send them to Gitmo.
I do not know the answers to your questions. However the present case is distinguished from your second set of questions because the people aren't able to escape by swimming.
You don’t remember these debates under Obama?? Republicans wanted terrorists captured and sent to Gitmo because they were invested in the legacy of George W Bush who captured terrorists and discovered they had no intelligence and so he started torturing them to elicit false confessions to tie 9/11 to Saddam.
"However the present case is distinguished from your second set of questions because the people aren't able to escape by swimming."
What evidence do you have that this is true? That they were unable to escape by swimming (or any other means)?
It's an assumption based on where they were hit. Perhaps the analysis is different if 1) there was a means of escape, and 2) we could not interdict in time. I doubt both of those conditions hold.
Why do you doubt that? Do you have evidence where exactly they were hit? Do you have any evidence of what naval assets the United States had nearby?
It is a familiar proposition of law that one cannot claim that a law or regulation, which clearly applies to the conduct of which he is accused, cannot be heard to complain of vagueness and/or overbreadth by posing a series of hypothetical questions as to other, marginal applications to other actors and situations.
CORRECTION: My syntax there was garbled. The idea I intended to convey is that it is a familiar proposition of law that one cannot be heard to claim that a law or regulation, which clearly applies to the conduct of which he is accused, is vague and/or overly broad by posing a series of hypothetical questions as to other, marginal and speculative applications of the regulation to other actors and situations.
This is just whattabouting without even a real event to point to. Just I guess 9-11 invocations (what else is Al Qaeda known for?)
You shred your soul trying to defend this stuff.
You really need to learn what "whatabouting" really is.
No - you do.
Making hypothetical scenarios does not somehow change the real facts under discussion.
You're deflecting. It's the best you've got, since you've decided to defend this. Which is a choice you made for some reason.
Al-Qaeda affiliation here may actually make some difference. Unlike the recent Caribbean strikes, Congress has authorized use of military force by the President "against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons." https://www.congress.gov/107/plaws/publ40/PLAW-107publ40.pdf
With the lapse of time since that approval, however, such authorization has lost much of its force.
"Congress has authorized use of military force by the President "
That makes no difference at all. It's a red herring. Congress authorizing military force does not make violation of the rules of war OK. It just doesn't.
"That makes no difference at all. It's a red herring. Congress authorizing military force does not make violation of the rules of war OK. It just doesn't."
It may make some difference for purposes of federal criminal prosecution. Whether such a difference is dispositive, I don't claim to know.
For instance, suppose a service member is prosecuted under 18 U.S.C. § 1111 with murder, within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States, for killing a known member of Al Qaeda, whom the President had determined to have harbored someone who aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001. If I were defending that service member, I would offer that AUMF in order to create reasonable doubt as to whether the killing was "unlawful" within the meaning of § 1111(a).
Avoiding conviction takes only persuading one juror.
I will take a Devil’s advocate position here.
Two questions for Professor Adler.
1. If the US had used the CIA rather than the military, would your opinion be different? Historically, when the CiA has instigated an assassination, it has finished the job rather than attempted to help survivors.
2. If it’s Ok for the CIA to do it but not the military, could the problem be solved by the participants getting out of uniform? How much would they have to shed before military law no longer applies? Their insignia? Their jackets? How about if they had brought a good-for-one-day CIA membership card?
We’ve had organizations like the CIA that have done lethal covert dirty tricks overseas for decades. Is the fuss here about using the wrong organization or wearing the wrong clothing? Is this like when the lawyers mess up the paperwork and judges get all hot about how DARE the federal government try to regulate something outside the commerce power? If you had just worded things differently you could have done it. Is this any different? Given how often the US has been involved in assassinations and such in the past, to what extent is the fuss real?
The fundamental problem here is that what the CIA does when it assassinates etc. is simply not considered “war,” making the concept of war crime irrelevant. So what makes this “war?” The use of uniformed personnel? Then is why not just have them take off their uniforms and be done with it? Why not just make the minimum technical paperwork-type change necessary to take this out of the technical definition of “war”? No war, no war crime.
Nope, if they are important enough to kill then we should capture them and interrogate them. So by killing them Hegseth is conveying these people are being killed to make Trump’s base happy even though many of them love cocaine.
It may be bad policy to not capture and interrogate them. But if bad policy were a crime, what US office-holder would fail to be guilty at some point or other? Most would have a very long rap sheet.
Nope, by having no desire to capture it is obvious that these are murders and not just strikes.
So the CIA does murders?
Yep. We have civilian control of the military and for something to not be murder due process must be followed. Trump has not followed due process in these drug interdictions. Trump could and should be impeached over this abuse of power but ultimately Republican senators wouldn’t remove him because they fear his voters. What’s funny is everyone agrees Lindsey Graham is a pussy but pretty much all Republican senators are pussies.
You classify all of these as murders? It’s a long list over quite a long time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_by_the_United_States
Of course they're murders. Easy way to tell: if some foreign country did it to an American, would we consider it a murder?
(I set aside the Trump cowardice in being unwilling to call out those foreign countries he fears for their crimes, a la the murder of Khashoggi.)
So, we should bring up Barack Obama on murder charges?
"So, we should bring up Barack Obama on murder charges?"
Pursuant to what statute(s) and for what conduct?
Whom did President Obama arguably murder outside the ambit of the official acts for which he is immune under Trump v. United States, 603 U.S. 593 (2024)?
It's not just the CIA, we occasionally do bad things during clandestine military operations, like the one reported recently where SEALs killed some North Korean fishermen.
Not sure how to feel about that.
Are you asking whether the CIA did war crimes in Latin America?
I believe the accepted answer yes, then cough and change the subject.
No war, no war crime.
No war, no justification for any of the attacks, including the initial one here.
So they would all just be murder. Of course there is no war, so they really are murder, but if Trump and Hegseth want to claim there is a war, then they should be bound by the rules, which make the second attack a war crime. No?
Let's drop one more bit of information here.
Here is Senator Mark Kelly. He is directly asked "Would he refuse to follow a similar order". (Technically, he's asked "KRISTEN WELKER: So would you refuse these specific orders to strike drug boats, if you were still in uniform?")
He doesn't respond "Yes, I would refuse such an order". He avoids the question. It's telling. If you are a member of the Armed Forces, and you're paying attention...and a Senator who opposes these strikes is directly asked "Would you refuse such an order"...and that Senator avoids the question. There's legal ambiguity.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2025/11/30/nbc_to_sen_mark_kelly_would_you_refuse_orders_to_sink_suspected_drug_smuggling_boats.html
Do you really believe Trump told SEAL Team 6 that they were about to assassinate a little American girl and 9 of her little friends??
So not even one of the Seditious Six will say what WAPO is saying...
Interesting.
It tells us that he's not a moron. Given that the loons are already falsely claiming that he and his colleagues told service members to disobey orders, it's wise of him to dodge a hypothetical question. Whether an order is legal depends on its specifics, but that is not going to come through in a talking head hit on TV. Even though he'd be answering in the abstract, the story would be twisted into, "Kelly is telling service members that they should disobey this specific order from Trump" or "Kelly is admitting that Trump's order was legal."
Yes, we know DN. Orange man bad, this admin always lies, and (D) always tell the truth.
Kelly (D) can't even answer if he would refuse the order. One of the poster children for "you must refuse illegal orders (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)" can't even say that he would refuse this order - as the (D) party runs around crying to the heavens that the whole admin should be sent to a ICC war crime tribunal.
" it's wise of him to dodge a hypothetical question."
It's only hypothetical in that it puts Kelly in the soldier's shoes. If it's clearly illegal, Kelly should be able to say so. If Kelly dodges the question even though he isn't actually under orders....what's the soldier supposed to think? "Yeah....Senator Kelly dodged the question, so I should dodge too and not put my foot down saying it's illegal".
He doesn’t know the information the soldiers had. Once again, if SEAL Team Six knew they were being ordered to take out a day care do you think they would have followed Trump’s very first military order?? Honestly I would believe the Deep State fed Trump bad information to undermine his presidency except in his second term it’s emboldened him because he already did the worst thing a president can do!?! You can’t do worse than lighting up a day care and retrieving no actionable intelligence.
No, it's hypothetical in that he's being asked about whether he would disobey an order that he hasn't heard. Tell me what the order actually is and I'll tell you whether I'd obey it.
If he says, "Yes, I'd disobey that order" and then Hegseth claims the order that was actually given was different, Kelly could try to defend himself by (correctly) saying, "That's not the order I was asked about on TV," but that would be a difficult sell.
They shouldn’t disobey illegal orders….they should do what Vindman did and take advantage of whistleblower protection. You would never admit it because you were a Bush true believer…but America would be much stronger today had the interrogators tasked with eliciting false confessions from detainees taken advantage of whistleblower laws if the laws were around in 2002.
Listen, the text is there. Let me quote it again.
" If you were still in uniform, if you received an order to strike suspected drug boats overseas and kill everybody onboard, would you refuse that order in real time?"
"So would you refuse these specific orders to strike drug boats, if you were still in uniform?"
If yours or Kelly's response is "Well....it depends on the EXACT order given"....that's just dancing around. And Kelly does dodge. You may say "Well, that's smart of Kelly". Sure. But it doesn't help the officers at all. If something is clearly illegal, Kelly should put his money down. He doesn't. And it shows.
Of course a reasonable response to, "Would you follow an order to do X?" is "It depends what the actual order says." An order that says, "Sink that boat, even if people on board are killed," is different than "Sink that boat and kill all the people on board."
Now, I'm not a politician and don't have to worry about reprobates from the administration lying on Fox News about what I said, so I can say that the answer is: blowing up a boat outside of the context of self-defense or war is a crime, and killing survivors is an even more heinous one, so no, I would not follow such an order.
Armchair, as Mark Kelly understands and you don't, that question deserves a far deeper discussion than possible on a short TV hit. And no, it isn't up to a Senator (or President, though that doesn't stop Trump) to make the equivalent of a legal judgement in a specific, on-going, real-world instance—that's the province of the judicial system.
Senator Kelly wasn’t going to explain all the circumstances applying to the dick-wagging kill-them-all 'War Secretary' and his 4-star just-following-orders SOCOM commander, to Margaret Brennan in two minutes.
The point Mark Kelly and the other members of Congress made and continue to make, is that nothing removes the legal and moral responsibility of every military member to refuse to follow a manifestly unlawful order (term used in the UCMJ as I recall), at any rank or grade.
Right. But then you recognize the game. The statement is general enough to apply to anything, everything, and nothing. That's the point of it.
Yeah, Kelly was understandably circumspect in that interview. However, according to CNN
Link: https://www.cnn.com/2025/11/30/politics/video/trump-hegseth-af1-comments-digvid
Could not find a transcript, but Kelly seems pretty clear that a second strike would be illegal and that he wouldn't have followed such an order.
So you might want go pick up that football you spiked and undo your victory dance to the extent that you can.
From your history, Armchair, it seems unlikely you were ever a member of the Armed Forces or that you've ever payed much attention to its culture and issues.
During my USAF military career, from shaven-head Airman Basic until retirement 21 years later as a Senior Master Sergeant, discussions around the obligation to refuse illegal orders were common. When the question of when to do that came up in the Law of War section of Senior NCO academy, my instructor said the only answer to the question, is "Penzon." He was Hungarian and that was his pronunciation of and shorthand for "It depends on the specific circumstances of each unique situation."
As Mark Kelly understands and you don't, it needs and deserves a far deeper discussion than possible on a short TV hit. And no, it isn't up to a Senator (or President, though that doesn't stop Trump) to make that judgement on a specific instance—that's the province of the judicial system.
One common point that was explained to me as a young Airman and I passed along to young Airmen as a Senior NCO, was that a significantly unusual important order reaching the lower ranks had already been vetted by multiple levels of command, and it was unlikely (though not impossible) that a truly illegal order would make it through that gauntlet to the young airman.
Another related point was that, the greater the authority of the military member, the greater the responsibility to refuse a patently illegal order—and thus free those under their command from having to make that decision on incomplete information or less knowledge. In other words, my responsibility as a Senior NCO was greater than that of a Staff Sergeant or Senior Airman; my commander's responsibility was greater than mine; and the General's responsibility was far greater than either.
But the final point, always made, is the point of Mark Kelly and the other members of Congress—that nothing removes the legal and moral responsibility of every military member to refuse to follow a manifestly unlawful order (term used in the UCMJ as I recall), at any rank or grade.
By the way, military commissioned officers and enlisted members take different oaths, influencing not just the finer legal points but the culture and tradition of following orders. Mark Hertling (LtGen, Ret., USA) nicely explains some of that in this Bulwark piece:
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/what-americans-should-understand-about-the-military-disobeying-illegal-orders-two-oaths
I disagree with much of Hertling’s opinion about what he believes to be my own traditionally—not legally—lesser responsibility, but it is a common point of view in the officer ranks. Well worth reading for the facts, culture, and process info.
Now the environmental and regulatory law guy has an opinion on the law of armed conflict. It's so tiresome.
Adler, in both cases, cited people with related expertise.
Jack Goldsmith. Now, Andrew McCarthy. Both conservatives.
AM is a former U.S. prosecutor, involved in terrorist prosecutions, and has expert knowledge about international terrorism issues.
OTOH, I guess proverbial shooting the messenger is not a war crime.
"if the Post report is accurate..."
Given the Post's history I remain doubtful.
And by "conservative" you mean that they once served in an (R) admin - and they hate trump.
Trump is not a conservative president; he's something else entirely. Conservatives *should* hate Trump, but many decided that bending the knee was more important.
Also, I'm curious... is there anyone who criticizes Trump that you'd see as legitimate, or at least arguing in good faith? Anyone at all?
No, he's definitely not a conservative President.
This is not the politics of what conservatives want. It's the politics of what they'll settle for, in a system where they demonstrably can't GET what they want.
The Democratic party never produces Presidents acceptable to conservatives, and that's not shocking, you wouldn't expect them to.
Somewhat more shocking is that neither does the Republican party. The GOP establishment has, for decades, reliably produced candidates who were actively determined not to deliver large parts of the conservative agenda. They'd make conservative noises during the campaign, then pivot. Usually as soon as they had the nomination, sometimes even before that.
In Trump they have a guy who is decidedly not a conservative, but who has no ideological convictions that get in the way of his trying to make conservatives happy. So he actually does try to deliver. As I've remarked before, the novelty of this causes conservatives to cut him a lot of slack.
And he needs it, because his means are seldom conservative even when he's trying to accomplish something conservatives want accomplished.
He tries to "dance with the one who brung him", but he's a terrible dancer. But just not kicking them to the curb as soon as the election was past earns him a lot of credit.
Still fanfic. The only way to make it even a tiny bit accurate is to treat a willingness to negotiate and compromise — in other words, basic approaches in a democratic society — as if it were actually a secret refusal to try.
"It's so tiresome."
I know. And the posts are too short.
Since when must this be a prerequisite and to whom must the US military prove this too?
They are intentionally introducing concepts from criminal law into military affairs to muddy the waters. A soldier doesn't need to "prove" an enemy soldier is anything before shooting him.
Which branch of government gets to designate which soldiers are enemy soldiers?
You are intentionally introducing concepts from military affairs into criminal conduct to muddy the waters. There are no enemy soldiers here.
Also, even when we are talking about military affairs, if a soldier is prosecuted afterwards he needs to prove that he reasonably believed the person was an enemy soldier, and that it was within the rules of engagement.
And, "My superior officer SAID he was an enemy soldier, and he wasn't flying a Red Cross flag!" will usually be sufficient proof.
That, in fact, will usually not be sufficient proof.
SECDEF Hegseth, as the superior officer giving the original unlawful orders, might find a way to ‘escape on a technicality’ in a way similar to Capt. Ernest Medina’s successful defense in the Vietnam My Lai Massacre court martials. Paraphrased, Medina said ‘When I told Lt. Calley the village was infested by Viet Cong and to kill them all, he knew I meant the Viet Cong, not every man, woman and child in the village!’
That does, by the way, put ADM Frank M. “Mitch” Bradley (four-star SOCOM commander) loosely in the role of the not very bright, poor-performing officer, Lt. William Calley, whose court martial defense was essentially ‘The Captain was my boss. He told me to kill them all. I followed his orders. I’d do it again.’ He was convicted of killing 22 noncombatants. Counts differ, but 300-500 villagers were killed. None of the 100 soldiers under his command were charged (some received immunity for their testimony).
So, ADM Bradley can say, 'the Secretary of War is my superior officer. He told me to blow up the boats and kill the smugglers. I followed his orders. And, called back from retirement to face court martial, be convicted of not refusing to follow, but passing on, manifestly unlawful orders.
That is, by the way, both the original order for Seal Team Six to conduct nonjudicial summary executions of civilians, and to then kill shipwrecked survivors.
In any event, IIRC it was legally irrelevant whether or not the victims at My Lai were non-combatants.
They were non-resisting human beings under the control of the US armed forces, and the panel was instructed that any order to kill non-resisting human beings under the control of the US armed forces was unlawful as a matter of law.
There's little doubt some of the go-fast boats blown up were engaged in cocaine smuggling…as has been the case for decades. The U.S. practice—legal under U.S and international law—has been to interdict them. The well-practiced Coast Guard technique is to disable the tall outboard engines with a .50-caliber rifle round from a sniper in a helicopter, have a ship seize the drugs and transfer the crew to the judicial system for trial, conviction, and sentencing.
That often ends with underlings accepting a plea agreement and reduction in sentence if they can provide enough information on higher-ups in the drug trafficking ring. That assumes you’re at all interested in combating drug trafficking. But what if that isn’t any particular priority of a president? Well…game recognizes game…
But backing up a little, if you're in favor of the rule of law, all of that means little. Summary extrajudicial execution of civilians (even criminals) who are not a threat to our forces is, in a time of some sort of acknowledged war, a war crime. If not in a time of war, it’s simple murder.
I just don't want it to become accepted that Trump can, without consequence, order your or my murder for the seditious act of being insufficiently enthusiastic about his “DEATH” threats to members of Congress (perhaps you should consider using more ALL CAPS).
I would just add that if the drug smugglers shoot at you, you are of course allowed to use deadly force in response.
Yeah, I could have added that, with links to specific instances were just that happened. That's why Coast Guard Cutters on drug interdiction patrol have a 57mm deck gun and (I just looked) "M2 .50-caliber machine guns and M240B 7.62mm machine guns."
But, what, you think my comments aren't long enough already? (͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
They just need to use bigger bombs henceforth.
People across the aisle are pushing for investigations to obtain information about this issue.
That, not trying to find gotchas from interviews where the person specifically notes they can only opine based on news reports, so carefully does not provide final conclusions, is the ideal path.
The person cited by the OP notes:
Hegseth, responding to the Post report on X, begins with the familiar pining about how all derogatory reporting about the Trump administration is “fake news,” but then doesn’t actually rebut any assertion in the report.
A so-called non-denial denial? It then addresses Hegseth's comment:
Neither Hegseth’s statement nor the explanation attributed to Bradley (and excerpted above) makes legal sense.
Along with Jack Goldsmith, we are getting careful commentary from conservatives with some legal expertise in this area.
Given the stakes, along with past actions by this Administration, including how unreliable Hegseth is, it is quite appropriate to be very careful here. Even the possibility of an administration committing war crimes and/or murder should be guarded against.
Thus, some Republicans and conservatives, not just some easily targeted "TDS" subject, are starting to be seriously concerned.
Hegseth is a nazi.
Hegseth is a Cheney Republican and had he been German in the 1930s he would definitely have been a Nazi.
Are we setting up a case to arrest Obama?
Or did we forget about him already?
Watch out, the usual suspects will declare that "whataboutism".
You see, when (D) presidents drone US citizens without due process it is ok, because (D) have golden hearts.
(R) presidents have black hearts, so they should be impeached for removing drug traffickers without due process.
yawn
The problem with "Obama did it too!" isn't that the statement is false. The problem is that people use that as a rhetorical dodge to avoid answering the more important question of *whether it is right or not*.
It's like people don't want to actually think about an issue, like the only reason they're talking about it is to score points in an endless (and unwinnable) war against Democrats or Republicans.
People use it to point out that, if you're only concerned about 'war crimes' when the other guy commits them, you're not concerned about war crimes, you're concerned about the other guy being the other guy.
Lots of people were pretty unhappy on here at the time. Hell the whole drone policy had plenty of Dems unhappy.
And it’s flatly false that it’s being used to point out hypocrisy.
It’s being used to defend this administration.
Which is indeed a dodge.
Yeah, and lots of people weren't unhappy at the time.
You are a Cheney Republican!!! Lolololololololol!!!!
>even if one overlooks that the administration has not proven that they are drug traffickers or members of designated FTOs
So . . . we are ignoring Obama.
Yes, because that isn't the topic under discussion. We are also ignoring possible illegal orders from James K. Polk during the Mexican-American War.
Haven't proven it to whom??? You think you are entitled to be briefed on this??? Ha, ha, ha. The relevant Congressional Committees have been briefed. You should delete your account here in shame.
Doing great, chief!
Countries are arbitrary constructs and what they do too. Civilization requires actions others may not like. People make decisions. There are consequences.
Bush II set the tone of modern statecraft with all others following suit. Congress sits on their butts quibbling over seating arrangements. What the law of these actions fall under, some debate. Deaths are to be avoided.
There are better ways than blowing up these boats, but it does make a strong statement in doing so, which is the point of the exercise - deterrence, for what it's worth. Interdiction would most likely cause US deaths. Would everyone agree that would be acceptable ?
Returning the topic, law has always been malleable.
Might makes right…what a novel concept!!
“Make a strong statement”
This is a key point. Interdiction is possible and this is likely not a source of fentanyl to begin with. But the point is the “statement.” That is a nicer way of saying we are killing people for propaganda purposes. But you’ve curiously stopped short of the final logical step. Just who is the intended audience for these “statements”? It’s not the cartels.
The audience is Trump’s base. They are sick of 25 years of sacrificing their brother and sisters in order to maintain “proportionality” in war as Bush did. So Netanyahu has the right idea—create a nuclear graveyard without dropping a nuke! Trump’s base ran out of fucks to give a long time ago!!
Why the base? They already love Trump.
Trump’s a lame duck and so his concern is Republicans getting out of line. Keeping his base energized keeps Republicans in check. Remember that on January 7, 2021 Republican establishment was trying bury Trump and they wanted a DeSantis/Haley ticket with Liz Cheney as Speaker. A few weeks later Haley had changed her tune and Cheney was voted out of leadership and DeSantis still thought he could be president…what a joke!
Am I supposed to care? We can either do extrajudicial killings of these drug traffickers, or we can try to seize their boats and have shootouts.
It's reminiscent of the perennial debate on using the atomic bombs in Japan to save American lives that would be lost in a ground invasion.
Shootouts?
Who do you think these guys are? Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid?
You America-hating, mask-hating patriots have rationalized child rape...and now you rationalize murder. Why should any of us engage in conversation with you ever again?
The thing is...I'm fairly anal about facts. Here's the list from above that approve of murder:
Poxigah146
NvEric
Incunabulum
DDHarriman
Kleppe
I know you boys think you are immune from consequence. But trust me...in 2029, well, things can happen
"Trump told SEAL Team 6 that they were about to assassinate a little American girl and 9 of her little friends??"
For those of us who have no idea what this alludes to, might we have a link to clarify it?
“Killing of Nawar al-Awlaki” on January 29, 2017. The mission was FUBAR from the jump. The fallen hero was William “Ryan” Owens, fair winds and following seas.
A lot of digital ink based on unsubstantiated anonymous allegations.
If the only way to meaningfully interdict the supply of these drugs (at least at a possible level of resource expenditure) is via Trump's method (including kill everyone, as both a deterrent to others and to take the participants out of future smuggling), does a necessity argument carry any weight legally? How about morally? How about a billionaire who has already lost one child to drugs and fears that his remaining kids, having also used drugs and flunked out of rehab, can only be saved by stopping the flow? Any sympathy for him if he undertakes a similar operation? More broadly, is there any conduct so heinous and/or so destructive that those engaging in it forfeit all legal protection? All moral protection? How about a Bond villain who threatens nuclear destruction and has the means to deliver it? Consider that, if we stipulate the Bond villian gets no protection, then it's a matter of decding if the drug smugglers fall in the same category. Why or why isn't such a judgment defensible? Spies don't get laws of war protections. Should drug dealers?
Erik Bolling lost his son to fentanyl poisoning. I know a family friend whose son died due to fentanyl poisoning. In both instances the young man believed he was popping someone else’s prescription Xanny and the dumbass drug dealers screwed up the fentanyl dosing which is added to make it more addictive.
Incorrect. They don't get to be treated as POWs; they still cannot be summarily killed.
Drug dealers Are. Not. Combatants. It. Is. Not. War. They are just criminals. The govt cannot kill them any more than it can kill bank robbers, or embezzlers, or drunk drivers. (That is, any of those suspected criminals can be killed under certain circumstances, but not just because they're suspected criminals.)
Your helpfully bolded and highly punctuated sentence represents a judgment. I asked whether a contrary judgment could be justified, morally or legally. To me, that is a much more interesting, and portentially more useful, discussion to have. Why should it be the case that a society cannot decide that the consequences of not summarily killing drug importers en route are so bad, that legal protrections provided others cannot apply?
According to this story, there were no survivors of the first strike on the boat. Which story is true? The Secty of Defense should release the drone footage.
https://x.com/Rasmussen_Poll?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1995203244516315424%7Ctwgr%5Ee89f213454453696136a70e664a721d667335503%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Finstapundit.com%2F759615%2F
In a truth contest between The Washington Post and anybody, I go with whoever isn't the WP.
Fittingly, that link doesn't link to a story.
Adler is a nut job. Inherent powers of 'we the people' to defend our country allows for pummeling speedboats full of illegal drugs. Adler is mad because his leftist pals profit from such illicit trade. Oh boo hoo! Adler's twisted fallacy objection, sponsored by money from such evil trade, foolishly claims there is not a war, no armed combatants, not a state actor .... poor boy Adler betrays his allegiance to the dark side. Drug trade is an armed conflict, sponsored by a sovereign state, even protected by friends of Adler.
Perhaps Adler can file a complaint to some authority with power greater than USA to punish 'we the people' for taking out the bad guys. Adler has never been to war, would not know the difference between crime and battle. Another fine example of the ivory tower law professor, detached from reality.
PP
"Murder is the unlawful killing of human beings. These Venezuelan traffickers are not human beings, but vermin."
Supporting facts, Poxigah146?
Yeah, Trump often publicly confesses, too.