The Volokh Conspiracy
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McCarthy: "'We Intended the Strike to Be Lethal' Is Not a Defense"
NRO's Andrew McCarthy on why strike on defenseless survivors of strike on drug boat was "at best, a war crime under federal law."
Over at NRO, Andrew McCarthy largely agrees with Jack Goldsmith's conclusion that the the reported attack on survivors of a drug boat strike was unlawful. According to McCarthy, "If this happened as described in the Post report, it was, at best, a war crime under federal law." He writes further:
even if we stipulate arguendo that the administration has a colorable claim that our forces are in an armed conflict with non-state actors (i.e., suspected members of drug cartels that the administration has dubiously designated as foreign terrorist organizations (FTOs)), the laws of war do not permit the killing of combatants who have been rendered hors de combat (out of the fighting) — including by shipwreck.
To reiterate, I don't accept that the ship operators are enemy combatants — even if one overlooks that the administration has not proven that they are drug traffickers or members of designated FTOs. There is no armed conflict. They may be criminals (if it is proven that they are importing illegal narcotics), but they are not combatants.
My point, nevertheless, is that even if you buy the untenable claim that they are combatants, it is a war crime to intentionally kill combatants who have been rendered unable to fight. It is not permitted, under the laws and customs of honorable warfare, to order that no quarter be given — to apply lethal force to those who surrender or who are injured, shipwrecked, or otherwise unable to fight.
A key point here is that McCarty is not relying upon UN-affiliated entites nor unincorporated international law for his conclusion. Rather, he is resting his contentions on federal law (including those portions of the laws of war or international law that have been formally ratified by the Senate).
The laws of war, as they are incorporated into federal law, make lethal force unlawful if it is used under certain circumstances. Hence, it cannot be a defense to say, as Hegseth does, that one has killed because one's objective was "lethal, kinetic strikes."
And, it is worth noting, that federal law imposes the most severe penalties on war crimes.
McCarthy also highlights the fundamental irrationality of the Administration's policy, particularly given the constraints of federal law
. . . if an arguable combatant has been rendered hors de combat, targeting him with lethal force cannot be rationalized, as Bradley is said to have done, by theorizing that it was possible, at some future point, that the combatant could get help and be able to contribute once again to enemy operations. . . .
if the Post report is accurate — Hegseth and his commanders changed the protocols after the September 2 attack, "to emphasize rescuing suspected smugglers if they survived strikes." This is why two survivors in a subsequent strike (on October 16) were captured and then repatriated to their native countries (Colombia and Ecuador).
This was a ludicrous outcome: under prior policy, the boat would have been interdicted, the drugs seized, and the operators transferred to federal court for prosecution and hefty sentences. Under the Trump administration's policy, if the operators survive our missiles, they get to go back home and rejoin the drug trade. But put that aside. The point is that, if the administration's intent to apply lethal force were a defense to killing shipwrecked suspected drug traffickers, the policy wouldn't have been changed. It was changed because Hegseth knows he can't justify killing boat operators who survive attacks; and he sends them home rather than detaining them as enemy combatants because, similarly, there is no actual armed conflict, so there is no basis to detain them as enemy combatants.
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" if an arguable combatant has been rendered hors de combat, targeting him with lethal force cannot be rationalized,"
Of course it can be "rationalized." For that is precisely what the administration is doing. What it can't be is justified.
Does the National Review have editors anymore?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki
Plenty of people are not fans of that, but collateral damage isn't the same thing as intentional murder.
And what is it with you and your obsession with whattabouting? You've had the fallacy explained to you many times.
Collateral damage implies the desired target was hit.
It wasn't.
"My point, nevertheless, is that even if you buy the untenable claim that they are combatants, it is a war crime to intentionally kill combatants who have been rendered unable to fight. "
If the combatants are still alive, not unconscious, not sick, not in custody, not surrendered, etc....are they really "Hors de combat"? If they are "trying to escape"....they are not.
If you can drop a Hellfire missile by drone onto a group of people who are at a party in Yemen, presenting no clear immediate threat to US interests, without a legal issue....how is it different if the same group of people are on the open ocean?
Read the OP, maybe.
If they are survivors of a shipwreck, they are really hors de combat. That is explicitly the case; no extrapolation or the like required. The laws of war define them to be hors de combat.
Really? Let's give a hypothetical here.
Let's imagine that 5 of the perpetrators of 9/11 are on a small ship near to the shore. They are identified via done, and a missile strike is sent in to kill them. The strike destroys the ship. However, upon review, 3 are left alive, in good health, and are spotted swimming towards shore. Estimates are they will make it easily. Unless action is taken.
Is the "Rules of war" rationale that these 3 individuals cannot be struck again, so long as they are in the water? But as soon as they hit the land, they can be?
at best, a war crime under federal law
Not great, Bob.
The dropping of the first bomb on the ship is not at issue. Rather, the issue is killing, rather than capturing the survivors. There was no follow up in Yemen.
Also, it is feasible to rescue people at sea. I Yemen, not so much.
It actually is, although that's not the primary focus of this discussion. There is no lawful authority for the president to tell the military, "I think that guy is breaking the law; go kill him."
It is plenty feasible to rescue people in Yemen.
You're gonna need a bigger hoax
"Drone imagery showed the initial Hellfire engagement incinerating the vessel from bow to stern, with no signs of life amid the inferno. No “two men clinging to wreckage,” no improvised follow-up." -
@SecWar
Does it matter much whether or not the actions taken are war crimes under federal law? Trump was on board for these actions, so he'd be likely to apply the “He who saves his Country does not violate any Law” principle to pardon everyone at any risk of being charged with any federal crime(s).
Yes. This is what confuses me about the “it’s a hoax” comments.
"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?"
Occasionally, the guy gets something right.
Anyway, when attempting to rationally discuss these extra-judicial killings with a Trump supporter, bear the quote above in mind. You're not going to get anywhere.
But let's have a lot of fun with some hypotheticals here.
1.) A group of Al Qaeda terrorists are on a speed boat.
a) Can the speed boat be hit via done strike?
2) A group of Al Qaeda terrorists are on a speed boat. It's blown up, but several survive, and are seen swimming towards shore.
a) Can the terrorists be shot via drone?
b) Can they be shot via drone when they stand up out of the water?
3) A US special forces group attacks an Al Qaeda camp in a third party country. They kill a number of suspected terrorists. In the last room, they come upon a wounded terrorist without a weapon.
a) Can they simply shoot and kill the wounded terrorist, rather than try to apprehend him alive?