The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Guns, Felons, Religion, and Islam
From U.S. v. Thompson, decided Monday by Judge Karen Marston (E.D. Pa.):
On August 12, 2004, Thompson was sentenced to eight to twenty years' imprisonment after being convicted in the Court of Common Pleas of Philadelphia County for Attempted Murder, Aggravated Assault, Carrying Firearms without a License, and Possession of an Instrument of Crime. He was paroled on August 15, 2011. While still on parole on December 20, 2022, Thompson allegedly possessed a Ruger, Security 9, 9mm semi-automatic pistol loaded with fifteen live rounds of ammunition….
He was prosecuted for being a felon in possession, and argued, among other things, that this violated his religious freedom "by substantially burdening his ability to adhere to the Quran's requirement that he carry arms during prayer as a practicing Muslim":
RFRA "guarantee[s] more generous protections for religious freedom than are available under the Supreme Court's present interpretation of the First Amendment," by "proscrib[ing] government conduct which 'substantially burdens a person's exercise of religion' unless the government can demonstrate, inter alia, that the burden is the 'least restrictive means of furthering a compelling government interest.'" …
Thompson identifies as a "devout Muslim" and "strict adherent" to the teachings of the Quran, "the central religious text in the practice of Islam [and] a revelation directly from Allah." According to Thompson, the Quran "requires him to carry arms" during prayer. (See Doc. No. 26-1 (a passage from the Quran attached to Thompson's motion, which purportedly states, "And when you are among them and lead them in prayer, let a group of them stand [in prayer] with you and let them carry their arms.").) He argues that § 922(g)(1) substantially burdens his ability to do so.
The court concluded that Thompson hadn't adequately alleged that he believes the Quran requires him to carry firearms:
Thompson's argument relies entirely on a single passage from the Quran, which, according to his supplied translation, instructs the carrying of "arms" and refusal to neglect "weapons" during prayer. But § 922(g)(1)'s prohibition is limited to the possession of a firearm. Thompson does not argue or otherwise show that he can follow the Quran's mandate to carry "arms" or "weapons" during prayer only through possession of a firearm. Indeed, he seems to concede that these words in the Quran encompass more than just firearms: "The Quran provides that during prayer, you should carry arms and not neglect your arms. Arms are generally accepted as weapons, including firearms."
In short, Thompson has not established that compliance with § 922(g)(1)—which, as the Government argues, does not prohibit Thompson from possessing other types of weapons, like a knife or a sword, during prayer—"seriously violates [his] religious belief." …
(For a similar argument in a different factual context, see Tony & Susan Alamo Found v. Secretary of Labor (1985), where the Court rejected a Free Exercise Clause challenge to federal minimum wage law; the challengers claimed that they had a religious objection to being paid "wages" for their work for a religious organization, but the Court reasoned that the challengers' own characterization of their religious beliefs didn't preclude applying the law: "Since the associates currently receive [board, lodging, and seminilar] benefits in exchange for working in the Foundation's businesses, application of the Act will work little or no change in their situation: the associates may simply continue to be paid in the form of benefits. The religious objection does not appear to be to receiving any specified amount of wages. Indeed, petitioners and the associates assert that the associates' standard of living far exceeds the minimum. Even if the Foundation were to pay wages in cash, or if the associates' beliefs precluded them from accepting the statutory amount, there is nothing in the Act to prevent the associates from returning the amounts to the Foundation, provided that they do so voluntarily. We therefore fail to perceive how application of the Act would interfere with the associates' right to freely exercise their religious beliefs.")
The court also concluded that, in any event, applying the felon in possession ban to Thompson would pass strict scrutiny:
Even if Thompson had established that § 922(g)(1) substantially burdened his religious belief that he is required to carry arms during prayer, the Court would find that the Government's prosecution of Thompson under § 922(g)(1) is the least restrictive means of furthering its compelling interest in promoting public safety and preventing violent crime through the uniform application of § 922(g)(1)….
[T]he Government has "a compelling interest in public safety and preventing crime through the uniform enforcement of gun control laws," including § 922(g)(1)…. The Court also agrees with the Government that exempting Thompson from prosecution under § 922(g)(1) based on his religious belief that he must carry (fire)arms would "seriously compromise [the Government's] ability to administer" § 922(g)(1). It would create an exception for any convicted felon who claims that possession of a firearm is necessary to adhere to his religious beliefs and thus render § 922(g)(1) effectively unenforceable.
For the same reason, the Court finds that prosecuting Thompson represents the least restrictive means to further the Government's compelling interest in the uniform enforcement of § 922(g)(1)…. [T]here are no statutory exceptions to § 922(g)(1), thus this is not a situation where "the existence of government-sanctioned exceptions to a scheme purporting to be the least restrictive one possible can show that other, less-restrictive alternatives could be envisaged."
Robert E. Eckert represents the government.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Yeah, I mean the original language wasn’t talking about firearms.
Sure, but what was the original public meaning?
The original language of the statute or the Quran?
The Quran. Living Quranism?
But seriously, you know that there are entire schools of jurisprudence within Islam that battle each other exactly about such issues? And then you wind up in discussions about how the fasting during Ramadan is supposed to work if you live in Northern Canada and you have 22 hours of daylight each day. (Or 24 hours.)
But no Constitution does. It is an organic law, a founding document, a meta-law. They knew guns would change..but they were giving meat tothe unalienable right to have personal protection.
The Bible does this all the time,state a universal principle in the timebound way it has to
Is it alright to covet your neighbors car, Aruba vactions, full-screen TV or swimming pool because hey, they aren't mentioned in
You shall not covet your neighbor's house, wife, servants, animals, or anything else.
Per Exodus 20:17 (RSV), the Israelites were commanded, ""You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's."
What about coveting one's neghbor's wife's ass?
Hey Bob from Ohio!
See, there are LIMITS to 1A and 2A.
What part of "Congress shall make no law" do you not understand???
I haunt dreams.
I have nightmares.
(FTFY)
"Thompson allegedly possessed a Ruger, Security 9, 9mm semi-automatic pistol loaded with fifteen live rounds of ammunition…."
Well, without live ammunition, it is a club, not a firearm.
An unloaded gun, like an unloaded camera, is a paperweight.
The Supreme Court (unanimously) still finds an unloaded gun is a "dangerous weapon."
McLaughlin v. United States, 476 U.S. 16 (1986)
Three reasons, each independently sufficient, support the conclusion that an unloaded gun is a "dangerous weapon." First, a gun is an article that is typically and characteristically dangerous; the use for which it is manufactured and sold is a dangerous one, and the law reasonably may presume that such an article is always dangerous, even though it may not be armed at a particular time or place. In addition, the display of a gun instills fear in the average citizen; [Footnote 3] as a consequence, it creates an immediate danger that a violent response will ensue. Finally, a gun can cause harm when used as a bludgeon.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/476/16/
As the 1911 guys say about Glocks (and the same applies to the Ruger, Security 9, 9mm made of Polymer High-Performance Glass-Filled Nylon) pistol whipping someone with a hunk of plastic just does not get your message across.
Some are serious in this:
Ban ammo but not guns!
Ban film but not cameras!
Ban paper but not printing presses!
"Whee! Motivated neo-dictatorship is so fun! And now, to find talking heads to support all that. Good thing this neo-dictator has the one real superpower: the gift of gab."
As Chris Rock said, "If a bullet cost $5,000, there'd be no more innocent bystanders." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw
Glad to see the Court went on to hold that the Govt. had a compelling interest in stopping him from carrying weapons. That's the right result, in this case.
Now what if Thompson had been convicted of a non-violent felony. That would be a harder issue. IMO.
Mr. Thompson hasn't been convicted of anything yet in federal court. This was an order overruling a pretrial motion to dismiss the indictment.
What do they expect him to carry? A machete? A sword? That’s silly. He’d be laughed out of the death cult.
What did Muhammed, honored be his memory, say about AR-15s?
Anyways, this does seem to be a case where you can focus on limited grounds, the compelling interest, without trying to parse a "single passage from the Quran."
Trying to determine some objectively reasonable interpretation of religious documents is a dubious enterprise in this context.
Trying to determine some objectively reasonable interpretation of religious documents is a dubious enterprise in this context . . . and one exercise specifically not authorized by the US Government anyway.
NO, you can't blame God for your not following the rules of the country you live in. That was what killed slavery and bigamy
The question raised was whether sincere religious beliefs exempted a practicing member of the Mormon Church from the laws against polygamy
REynolds v United States
Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship, would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband, would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice?
So here, as a law of the organization of society under the exclusive dominion of the United States, it is provided that plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances. . .
Muslim loses and shows contempt for United States.
Mormons are not required by their religion to marry more than one woman.
All Mormons, or just the ones who identify as male?
Didn't say that, Mormonism was used in the Reynolds case to justify it for a Mormon who wanted more than one wife
The case involved George Reynolds, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), who was convicted of bigamy in the Utah Territory for marrying a second wife while still married to his first. Reynolds argued that his religious beliefs required him to practice polygamy and that his conviction violated the First Amendment's free exercise clause.
Doesn't matter a whit whether Reynolds takes it as allowed, his personal vocation, or simply facultative
A strict reading of that passage would indicate to me that when you come through the doors to a prayer service you take a hymnal, or whatever the Muslim equivalent is, and a handgun or some weapon and at the end of the service you hand it back on your way out the door.
That would seem to satisfy the religious requirement and based on McLaughlin v. United States it need not even be loaded.
His religion had nothing to do with why he was banned from possessing a firearm. He was banned from owning a firearm because he was a volent felon.As a violent felon he loses various rights and in this case there are alternatives that will allow him to fulfill the requirements of his faith without him possessing a firearm.
As one who has sometimes been accused of anti-religious bigotry, to the extent that anti-religious bigotry exists, this is why. Sane, rational, thinking people look at stuff like this and say, You have got to be kidding. And it's not just Islam; crap like this is found throughout pretty much any religion you want to look at. Sometimes this kind of idiocy is relatively harmless but not always.
People who are religious suffer from confirmation bias so they don't see it in their own religion, but it's there. One of my favorite lines from a movie is the following prayer: Please, dear God, do not give us any more religion as I don't know how much more religion we can stand.
You are a stupid woman, there are lots.
And of course like all lazy folk, you say you happen to escapte this confirmation bias for your beliefs.How convenient 🙂
Your beliefs are ridiculous and mine are rational
MOre and more athests are ridiculing people like you as ---- get this ---bigoted
I would ask you to listen to Aayan Hersi Ali (the 5th horseman of the New Atheists and now a Christian)
“In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper–namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. THOMAS NAGEL an atheist way smarter than you
Atheism is not a belief, it's a lack of belief. While I disbelieve the existence of gods, I also disbelieve astrology, palm reaching, weather predictions by groundhogs, phrenology, elves, goblins, and the existence of Little Red Riding Hood, and all for the same reason, which is that there's no good evidence for any of them. So it's not that I suffer from confirmation bias; it's that I want to see evidence for something before I believe it. Do I also suffer from confirmation for not believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny? Show me some evidence; I'll reconsider.
And it's not really a fear of religion so much as a fear of what adherents of religion have done to the world. Take religion out of the Middle East and half to two-thirds of the conflict there goes away.
Some religions are better than others. The 1A was written to protect Christian beliefs, not Moslem ones.
Like I was saying about confirmation bias.
"Some religions are better than others. The 1A was written to protect Christian beliefs, not Moslem ones."
Roger S, is that as true as everything else you have said?
On August 12, 2004, Thompson was sentenced to eight to twenty years' imprisonment after being convicted in the Court of Common Pleas of Philadelphia County for Attempted Murder, Aggravated Assault, Carrying Firearms without a License, and Possession of an Instrument of Crime. He was paroled on August 15, 2011.
It's not even the main point, but this is a case study in just how soft we are on crime. Look at that list of offenses. Eight to twenty is incredibly generous and he didn't even serve the eight. We shouldn't be having this conversation, because this predator should still be in a cage.
That does not appear to actually be a list of offenses; it appears to be one act charged in many different ways. So the real crime there is attempted murder. Now, is 8-to-20 "incredibly generous" for attempted murder? No. It may be light, but that would depend on the actual facts.
In any case, simple math would tell you that even if he had served the entire sentence, he would not "still be in a cage" now.
I have been predicting for some time now in these comment threads that a felon-in-possession defendant would raise an RFRA claim in a motion to dismiss the indictment.
As Garry Wills observed in the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre:
https://www.nybooks.com/online/2012/12/15/our-moloch/