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Thoughts on Today's Oral Argument in Our Case Against Trump's IEEPA Tariffs
Outcomes are hard to predict. But the judges seemed skeptical of the government's claim that Trump has virtually unlimited authority to impose tariffs.

Earlier today, a three-judge panel of the US Court of International Trade heard oral arguments in the case challenging Donald Trump's massive "Liberation Day" tariffs brought by the Liberty Justice Center and myself on behalf five US businesses harmed by the tariffs. The Administration claims that the President's imposition of 10% or higher tariffs on virtually every nation in the world is authorized by the International Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977 even though IEEPA doesn't mention tariffs at all, and its invocation requires the existence of a "national emergency" and an "unusual and extraordinary threat" to the United States.
Audio of the oral argument is available at the Court of International Trade website. It's generally difficult to predict the the outcome of a case based on oral argument. Judges will sometimes rule on issues that get little or no play in argument. Still, I was encouraged by the fact that all three judges seemed skeptical of the government's claim that IEEPA gives the president virtually unlimited power to impose tariffs. And, as we have argued from the beginning, the government's position amounts to saying that the president can impose tariffs of any amount, on any nation, at any time, for as long as he wants.
The issue of limits came up again and again during the argument. Judge Restani noted to the government's lawyer that "[t]here's no limit, is what you're saying — there's no limit." She also suggested that the government's position would enable the president to declare that a shortage of peanut butter qualifies as a "national emergency" and an "unusual and extraordinary threat" justifying tariffs. She did not strike me as happy with that state of affairs.
Judge Katzmann suggested that the government's position amounted to "deleting" the role of the judiciary from reviewing the legality of tariffs. Judge Reif - whom some observers believed was the judge least likely to support our case - seemed troubled by the fact that the government's ultra-broad interpretation of IEEPA would allow the president to bypass a number of other statutes that authorize the executive to impose tariffs in narrower circumstances, but only after following mandated procedural rules. If IEEPA grants the kind of sweeping authority Trump claims, there would be little point to these other laws.
In fairness, the judges also had some tough questions for LJC Senior Counsel Jeffrey Schwab, who argued the case for us. In particular, they focused on the issue of whether we have a standard for judging what qualifies as an "emergency" or an "unusual and extraordinary threat."
I think, as Jeff noted in oral argument, the longstanding and entirely normal trade deficits that the administration cites in this case, are so obviously neither an emergency nor unusual and extraordinary that the court could simply say they don't meet any plausible standards. As Jeff put it, an umpire doesn't have to precisely define the strike zone to call a ball on a pitch that's so far from the plate that it goes behind the batter and can be considered a wild pitch.
But if the court wants to articulate a standard, they should, as Jeff later indicated, conclude that, as the House of Representatives report leading to IEEPA put it, "emergencies are by their nature rare and brief, and are not to be equated with normal ongoing problems." Trade deficits are pretty obviously neither rare nor brief, and they are clearly "normal ongoing problems." Similarly, as even the government's counsel suggested, an "unusual and extraordinary threat" must be something that is "not usual." Trade deficits are in fact entirely "usual."
I was also struck by the fact that none of the judges asked about remedies or the scope o the injunction that should be imposed against the tariffs if we prevail, including whether the injunction should be nationwide or limited to our clients.
Overall, I am guardedly optimistic, though it's always possible that the judges' statements in oral argument don't fully indicate their thinking. We tentatively expect a ruling from the court within the next few weeks.
I have gone over the legal issues in the case in greater detail in my Lawfare article, "The Constitutional Case Against Trump's Trade War." See also my post on why these sweeping tariffs threaten the rule of law.
There are also several other cases challenging the tariffs, including one filed by twelve states led by Oregon, which will be heard by the same CIT panel on May 21. In addition, there is the aptly named Princess Awesome case filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation on behalf of ten businesses (also before the CIT), a case filed by the state of California in federal district court, one by the New Civil Liberties Alliance (challenging tariffs against China on behalf of an importer, filed in district court), and one brought by members of the Blackfeet Nation Native American tribe (challenging tariffs against Canada, filed in district court; that court ruled the case should be transferred to CIT, and the plaintiffs have appealed that ruling).
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Nice. I tend to agree; a court need not exhaustively consider every possible scenario to rule that "Trump stubbing his pinky toe" does not qualify as an emergency sufficient to justify arbitrary imposition of tariffs on penguins.
This is yet another instance where Trump could have taken a defensible position but seemingly chose not to on purpose.
Yes, it's a common "negotiating" tactic employed by Trump. Start with a maximalist claim and hope that the judge will "split the baby" in an attempt to seem reasonable.
So, when they claim that the president can impose tariffs of any amount, on any nation, at any time, for as long as he wants, they might just wind up with "the president can impose tariffs of some amount, on some nations, sometimes, for a "reasonable" period of time.
The thing is, this should be all null and void since there is no emergency. But some judges like to seem "judicious" by meeting both the parties halfway. And if that's the case, might as well shoot for the moon.
"sufficient to justify arbitrary imposition of tariffs on penguins"
Do you actually not know why we put tariffs on the Heard and McDonald islands, or is this some strange attempt at humor?
We actually do know why: some guy went down the list of places with ISO codes (or possibly the CIA World Factbook) and just scraped the database.
(It was not whatever laughable post hoc rationalization that MAGA came up with about trying to prevent people from using it as a tariff workaround, because that just isn't a thing that could happen.)
"some guy went down the list of places with ISO codes (or possibly the CIA World Factbook) and just scraped the database"
Evidence? Any at all?
Not sure if you really believe this or are just trying to save face. I saw a plaintiffs counsel embarrass himself stuttering away on his standard-less recommendations before some skeptical judges.
Where in the audio recording do you recommend we listen for this alleged embarassment?
If you want, all you have to do is listen to plaintiff counsels initial oral argument. I didn't bookmark it for you little troll. As noted, he's not sure how to define an emergency, but, like pornography, he knows it when he sees it.
Be precise here.
1) Were you at the hearing (as in "I saw...")
2) Listening to the audio?
3) Shitpost reacting to Prof Somin?
You made a claim that "I saw a plaintiffs counsel embarrass himself stuttering away on his standard-less recommendations before some skeptical judges."
Put up or STFU.
That's called a figure of speech you clown.
Why do you keep replying to insult people or call them trolls when they are politely responding to you? It's pretty rude.
He wasn't polite, so I treated him, her, it accordingly. Anyone wants to engage in a reasonable polite exchange here, fine. Would be a first for commenters here but who knows, maybe someday.
Riva, for once in your fucking life; just respond with something substantive. "Oh, it's at about 10:15 or so."
That's all you have to do. Jesus Christ...you make reading you so exhausting. It's like you want to antagonize every reader, and turn every possible supporter into an adversary.
If you have an actual helpful citation, I think we'd all like to have it.
How many thousands of cookie-cutter lawsuits from every company that imports goods does the CIT want to have on their docket? If it's a slam dunk on the merits, judicial efficiency is going to be a big factor here.
This seems like a case where nationwide relief is completely appropriate (much like the birthright citizenship case - it's just a lousy, lousy vehicle for arguing national injunctions are never ever appropriate).
Did anyone post a bond?
Does the Anti-injuction act apply?
The government made a fairly perfunctory bond request, but AFAIK no one has posted a bond. I'm not an expert on that topic, but I am skeptical that bonds will be required.
Why do you ask?
Well unless special circumstances apply a bond is required when requesting an injunction.
But I guess this case their are special circumstances, the anti-injunction act:
"no suit for the purpose of restraining the assessment or collection of any tax shall be maintained in any court by any person, whether or not such person is the person against whom such tax was assessed".
"Well unless special circumstances apply a bond is required when requesting an injunction."
No, Kazinski. A judge granting an injunction can waive the bond requirement, so long as the order specifically addresses the waiver.
Why do you ask?
It's one of those questions like "Does the American flag in the courtroom have fringe around the edges,"
No need to take it seriously.
I hope they make the right decision, the bottoms just fallen out of the market!
For anyone interested, the docket can be accessed here:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69888953/vos-selections-inc-v-donald-j-trump/
I do agree the Administration probably has a losing argument.
But the courts, especially the lower courts should be very careful about injuctions or court orders affecting the status quo while the case progresses.
Congress should have plenty of opportunity to confirm the trade ageements Trump is negotiating before any court decdes they are null and void.
What's the correct "status quo" to maintain?
My ex-wife is a top manager at a fairly large board game company (the board game nerds in here have almost certainly played games she's had a hand in).
This is the time period when they're normally manufacturing games in China and shipping them to the U.S. by the many container-loads for the holiday season. Currently ... they're not. (I haven't checked in the last day or two to see if 145%-->30% will change their plans). And they literally cannot shift their production pipeline in time for the holidays.
How long should her company - and thousands like it - have to wait while Trump flips and flops and flips again? IMHO the proper "status quo" is pre-tariff, not baking in Trump's sudden, non-statutory, and possibly unconstitutional power grab for months or years.
Well the current tariffs are 30%, thats the status quo.
Im not saying its not a difficult environment for importers, but the courts getting involved before a final judgement could make it worse.
The status quo in law is the state of affairs prior to the earliest challenged action. It's not whatever definition flitters through your mind in the moment.
Oh I get that the current tariff rate is 30%; but that's not the question.
Your answer is overly simplistic, and not how courts approach the issue. For example: if the President claims that he can shoot anyone he wants on 5th Ave., and then get sued, is the proper status quo "can shoot anyone he wants until there's a final judgment"?
The notion is that following a sudden and radical shift in policy/law/procedure/etc., the "status quo" is not necessarily determined solely after the massive power grab. Think about how that could be abused by either a (D) or (R) president. What's wrong with saying "the general status quo ante is 'can't shoot people'"?
Congress should have plenty of opportunity to confirm the trade agreements
Unless they decide to use reconciliation and/or blow up the filibuster over this, that seems a tricky assumption.
Even with reconciliation or blowing up the filibuster, "tricky" seems ... generous.
Only if you don't know what you are talking about.
We have already established that tariffs area tax, in fact they raised an additional 8 billion in April Y/Y.
Senate rules:
"Under Senate interpretations of the Congressional Budget Act, the Senate can consider the three basic subjects of reconciliation — spending, revenues, and the debt limit — in a single bill or multiple bills, but a budget resolution can generate no more than one bill addressing each of those subjects. In practice, however, a tax bill is likely to affect not only revenues but also outlays to some extent (for example, via refundable tax credits). Thus, as a practical matter a single budget resolution can probably generate only two reconciliation bills: a tax-and-spending bill or a spending-only bill and, if desired, a separate debt limit bill."
https://www.cbpp.org/research/introduction-to-budget-reconciliation
So a tariff bill could be taken up by itself or under "One Big Beautiful Bill".
I'm not completely sure about that, the Sanders wing of the Democratic party has long favored higher tariffs, at least they did until Trump started advocating for them.
But in any case tariffs can be enacted via reconciliation because they are taxes that provide revenue.
It isn't actually true that if you ever supported even one tariff increase to be consistent you must support Trump's insane idiot tariffs.
What would be a usual timeline on when we get a ruling based on today’s hearing?
"As Jeff put it, an umpire doesn't have to precisely define the strike zone to call a ball on a pitch that's so far from the plate that it goes behind the batter and can be considered a wild pitch."
This is not, in fact, how your autistic colleague "put it," and it is not admirable that you would lie to try and clean it up. Here is a transcript of what was actually said:
"I guess what I would say is, that I'm asking this Court to be an umpire, and to call a strike, and you're asking me, 'well, where's the strike zone, is it at the knees, or slightly below the knees?' and I'm saying, 'It's a wild pitch and it's on the other side of the batter and hit the backstop,' so we don't need to debate the difference between the strike zone at the knees or slightly below."
So, um, pretty much like Ilya said?
Kleppe's post may be the weirdest personal attack ever. "You accurately characterized what your colleague said! How dare you!"
My point (which was abundantly clear), was that Ilya was NOT accurately characterizing what his colleague said. Here were the breadcrumbs I left that you could have followed to that destination:
-"That is not, in fact, how your autistic colleague 'put it'"
-"It is not admirable that [Ilya] would lie to try and clean it up
-"Here is a transcript of what was ACTUALLY [emphasis added] said"
-And then me accurately quoting his colleague referencing a "strike" in his argument vice a "ball", which Ilya lied about in the OP
No, Ilya attempted to salvage what his autistic colleague said by claiming he was analogizing calling a wild pitch a "ball" without defining the exact strike zone. What his autistic colleague actually said, humiliatingly, was that the umpire should call the pitch a "strike" because it was a wild pitch. The dumb ass lawyer is making references to a sport he clearly doesn't understand.
"... emergencies are by their nature rare and brief, and are not to be equated with normal ongoing problems."
Yet, in 1995 Congress ordered the President to move the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, but every six months beginning with Clinton and finally ending with Trump, every President declared an "emergency" existed that prohibited the movement of the embassy. That's 23 years of a "rare and brief" emergency not "equated with normal ongoing problems."
I'm sure Congress will hold hearings to discern how the tariff power they gave to the president is being abused, and tighten up the laws. Or whatever. Or watch TV.