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Only Congress May Suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus
Lessons from Hamdi v. Rumsfeld
As my co-blogger Ilya Somin notes below, White House aide Stephen Miller commented today that the Trump Administration is "actively looking at" whether it would be possible to suspend the writ of habeas corpus on the grounds that the country is suffering an "invasion" by illegal immigrants.
My own view is that the White House can look at this question all it wants, but it is ultimately up to Congress whether the writ should be suspended (at least during times of peace). This is clear form the Constitution's text and structure. The suspension clause is in Article I, section 9, as among several enumerated constraints on legislative power. It is an interesting question whether Courts can review a legislative suspension of the writ, but I think it is relatively clear that the Executive cannot do so unilaterally.
I also think that the Supreme Court has fairly consistently operated under this assumption. Consider Hamdi v. Rumsfeld. In that case there was unanimous agreement that Congress had not suspended the writ, and so the question was whether the federal government could detain Hamdi (an American citizen alleged to be an enemy combatant captured in Afghanistan) in the United States without putting him on trial.
Justice Scalia, joined by Justice Stevens, concluded that the answer was "no," absent suspension of the writ of habeas corpus by Congress.
Where the Government accuses a citizen of waging war against it, our constitutional tradition has been to prosecute him in federal court for treason or some other crime. Where the exigencies of war prevent that, the Constitution's Suspension Clause, Art. I, § 9, cl. 2, allows Congress to relax the usual protections temporarily. Absent suspension, however, the Executive's assertion of military exigency has not been thought sufficient to permit detention without charge.
In other words, the Constitution's full procedural protections apply unless and until Congress suspends the writ.
While other justices did not agree with Justice Scalia on the merits, a majority of the justices indicated that they too believe it is for Congress to determine whether the writ should be suspended.
Justice O'Connor's plurality opinion, for example, noted that the write exists as a check on executive power unless and until Congress suspends it. Consider these two passages:
Though they reach radically different conclusions on the process that ought to attend the present proceeding, the parties begin on common ground. All agree that, absent suspension, the writ of habeas corpus remains available to every individual detained within the United States. U.S. Const., Art. I, § 9, cl. 2 ("The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it"). Only in the rarest of circumstances has Congress seen fit to suspend the writ. See, e.g., Act of Mar. 3, 1863, ch. 81, § 1, 12 Stat. 755; Act of Apr. 20, 1871, ch. 22, § 4, 17 Stat. 14. At all other times, it has remained a critical check on the Executive, ensuring that it does not detain individuals except in accordance with law.
Unless Congress suspends the writ, it remains a check on the Executive. This is a claim that would be nonsensical if the Executive could suspend the writ unilaterally. As she wrote later in her opinion:
Likewise, we have made clear that, unless Congress acts to suspend it, the Great Writ of habeas corpus allows the Judicial Branch to play a necessary role in maintaining this delicate balance of governance, serving as an important judicial check on the Executive's discretion in the realm of detentions. See St. Cyr, 533 U.S., at 301, 121 S.Ct. 2271 ("At its historical core, the writ of habeas corpus has served as a means of reviewing the legality of Executive detention, and it is in that context that its protections have been strongest"). Thus, while we do not question that our due process assessment must pay keen attention to the particular burdens faced by the Executive in the context of military action, it would turn our system of checks and balances on its head to suggest that a citizen could not make his way to court with a challenge to the factual basis for his detention by his Government, simply because the Executive opposes making available such a challenge. Absent suspension of the writ by Congress, a citizen detained as an enemy combatant is entitled to this process.
Even Justice Thomas, who embraced an incredibly expansive view of the Executive Branch's authority to detain enemy combatants in an armed conflict, wrote as if it is solely up to Congress whether the writ should be suspended. Indeed, this formed part of the basis for his disagreement with Justice Scalia, as if suspension of the writ was necessary to detain Hamdi, Justice Thomas wrote, Congress would have to violate the Constitution (by suspending the writ absent the required predicate) to achieve the desired result.
Justice SCALIA apparently does not disagree that the Federal Government has all power necessary to protect the Nation. If criminal processes do not suffice, however, Justice SCALIA would require Congress to suspend the writ. See ante, at 2673. But the fact that the writ may not be suspended "unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it," Art. I, § 9, cl. 2, poses two related problems. First, this condition might not obtain here or during many other emergencies during which this detention authority might be necessary. Congress would then have to choose between acting unconstitutionally4 and depriving the President of the tools he needs to protect the Nation. Second, I do not see how suspension would make constitutional otherwise unconstitutional detentions ordered by the President. It simply removes a remedy.
So even if the White house is convinced that the United States is currently subject to an "invasion" (a view I reject), I believe there is broad (if not universal) agreement that it would be solely up to Congress to suspend the writ.
UPDATE: On the original meaning of the suspension clause, see John Harrison, "The Original Meaning of the Habeas Corpus Suspension Clause, the Right of Natural Liberty, and Executive Discretion."
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IANAL and asked this in the other post.
Article I section 9 only says that Congress cannot suspend Habeas Corpus except during rebellion or invasion. Article II has no such provision. Isn't there a legal principle that when a word or phrase is used one place but not another, that is deliberate and the difference matters? What then prevents the President from suspending Habeas Corpus any time?
And yes, I am aware of Lincoln suspending it, and Congress belatedly authorizing him to do so two years later. But nothing was decided about that two year interim. Doesn't that establish some sort of precedent?
I am not asking about the wisdom of doing so. I'm not asking for or against Trump. IANAL and want to understand the legal logic here.
All the necessary logic is contained in the legal phrase "IT'S TRUMP!!!"
No branch of the United States can act absent a power given to it, typically by the constitution, sometimes by delegation. What constitutional provision gives the President/Executive the power to suspend it?
As I said, my understanding of legal jargon is that if something is mentioned one place but not the other, there is some legal principle saying the difference matters. Since Article I lays out the conditions when Congress can suspend Habeas Corpus, and Article II says nothing, can't that be quibbled into not prohibiting the President from suspending Habeas Corpus?
There's also the tons and tons of things the government does which are not authorized by the Constitution -- most departments and agencies, the FBI, Social Security, Qualified Immunity, on and on. The Constitution means what judges and lawyers say, not what you say or even what the Constitution's text says.
Congress can suspend habeas corpus in certain conditions. The President can't suspend it at all. As you said, there is a difference, and the difference does indeed matter (even if not in the direction you are asking about). Suspending Habeas Corpus is simply not a presidential power at all, which is precisely why Article II doesn't mention it. There are an infinite number of hypothetical powers that Article II doesn't mention, and of course that means that the President doesn't have such powers (not that he does due to the absence of their mention).
Yes, there are an infinite number of powers not mentioned. But suspension of Habeas Corpus is the only one specifically mentioned in Article I and not mentioned in Article II.
Now you are just making things up.
Congress has quite a few specifically mentioned powers not given to the President, and in some cases they are expressly limited. For example, Congress can appropriate money for armies, but not for a term of more than two years. That doesn't mean that the President can appropriate money for armies for more than two years; in fact, he can't appropriate money at all.
Art 2.2: "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States"
Art 2.3: "he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed."
I would read it that in an invasion, he has the right to do it unless Congress says he doesn't. As to Precedent, FDR;s Japanese removal act -- SCOTUS only ruled on American=born citizens.
Art 2.2: "..., and the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; ..."
However, since the Constitution has been bastardized, then anything goes !
"the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States" becomes _________________________.....
>There's also the tons and tons of things the government does which are not authorized by the Constitution
You are misapprehending the issue. The issue is not whether the government can suspend the writ. The question is whether the President can do so unilaterally. None of your examples were done unilaterally by the President.
"No matter the context, the President's authority to act necessarily 'stem[s] either from an act of Congress or from the Constitution itself.'" Trump v. United States, 603 U.S. 593, ___, 144 S.Ct. 2312, 2327 (2024), quoting Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579, 585 (1952).
If President Trump and Stephen Miller are conspiring for Trump to unilaterally suspend the writ of habeas corpus, Miller deserves to be prosecuted under 18 U.S.C. § 241.
Since Article I lays out the conditions when Congress can suspend Habeas Corpus, and Article II says nothing, can't that be quibbled into not prohibiting the President from suspending Habeas Corpus?
No, because, first, that argument would extent to everything Congress is not permitted to do - whether in the original Constitution or the Bill of Rights - and second, because you're looking at the Constitution in the wrong way. It's a delegation of power from the People. Any power not delegated, the legislature or the executive or the judiciary do not have, rather than anything not explicitly restricted they can do
How does this differ from interpreting "Congress shall make no law" to allow Executive abridgment of free speech?
That's what I'm asking. I'm not asserting anything. I'm asking.
But the logic is so obvious, you have to be willfully obtuse not to make that immediate connection, so your motivations are suspect.
Oh for Pete's sake! Logic has nothing to do with lawyering. If logic applied to interpreting the Constitution, 99% of the current laws and federal government would disappear.
Indeed so. Most indeededly.
If this world were a logical place, then men would ride side saddle, as Riders in the Sky are wont to say.
(I think that the novelist Rita Mae Brown may have said it first, but I am a Riders fan.)
I think it's probably more like 90%, but absolutely.
BrettLaw.
In Sarcastr0's alternate timeline, there was no 'switch in time that saved Nine' followed by the federal government expanding into a multitude of areas previously understood to be outside its reach.
Habeas corpus is a common-law writ. The common law is the default law. To override the common law a positive law (e.g., a statute or a rule authorized by a statute) must be passed. Under the Constitution, only Congress can pass laws or delegate the authority to pass rules pursuant to laws to someone else, usually (but not always) the executive branch. So, the president has no authority on his own to suspend habeas corpus because he doesn’t possess the power to pass laws that override the common law.
Moreover, the Constitution restricts Congress’s ability to suspend habeas corpus, namely, it can only be done in cases of rebellion or invasion when the public safety requires it. Also note that it can only be suspended, not permanently abolished. Thus, not even Congress can permanently abrogate it with positive legislation.
And just to take your premise to its logical extreme, the Constitution speaks of the limits of Congress’s power over habeas corpus, but not your next-door neighbor’s. Does that mean that, by negative implication, your neighbor has the power to suspend habeas corpus? Of course not. Neither does the Supreme Court, the Pope, or the local dog catcher.
In theory, the states can abolish habeas corpus in their jurisdictions because they aren’t denied that right by the Constitution, so the Tenth Amendment would allow them to do so. It is, however, a reasonable argument that the ability to seek the writ is one of the privileges or immunities contemplated by the Fourteenth Amendment. That aside, in reality this doesn’t matter because federal law authorizes federal courts to issue the writ to state officials when someone challenges a state conviction. There are strict limits to that authority, but it’s still a fairly robust protection.
The Constitution has no Article discussing my neighbor, the Pope, or the local dog catcher. It does have Article II discussing the President.
You clearly have no interest in hearing any different answers to the question you're repeatedly asking, so why continue with the charade? Just be an alpha male and do whatever you want: The Constitution is for suckers.
And that article gives no power to the president to do anything at all related to habeas corpus.
Okay. So does the Supreme Court or inferior courts have the power to suspend habeas corpus? Nothing says they can’t and they’re mentioned in the Constitution. What about the Vice-President? The Electoral College? A grand jury? A petit jury? The 25th Amendment’s “majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide”? All of those people and entities are mentioned in the Constitution but not specifically denied the power to suspend habeas corpus, so they must have the power, right?
I’m just asking questions, after all.
The courts don't NEED to suspend it.
At common law, the writ of habeas corpus was a check on the power of the king. "[B]y the 1600's, the writ was deemed less an instrument of the King's power and more a restraint upon it." Boumediene v. Bush, 553 U.S. 723, 741 (2008). As Justice Kennedy there wrote for the Court:
Id., at 730-740.
Article 2 powers are enumerated, which means if it is not there, then it does not exist.
Which President has that ever stopped?
It is hard to observe the President not using a power, but I’m confident it often doesn’t happen.
But it's not hard to observe the President using a non-enumerated power.
Sometimes it is easy to observe someone not using a power, such as you and reading comprehension.
TOO ironic.
see above
So, Biden acted illegally by allowing the invasion since there's no authority to allow people into the country.
Article I section 9 only says that Congress cannot suspend Habeas Corpus
This is the general implication because it is in Art. I, but the specific text does not say "Congress." The text is general:
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.
This is why Lincoln argued that he had the authority to suspend it when Congress was out of session and a rebellion or invasion led to the public safety requiring it.*
Congress is not out of session now. The current policy is for the Senate to always technically be in session to avoid interim appointments. So, that is somewhat academic.
Generally, the text refers to an existing writ that was crafted by the legislature as a safeguard against executive abuse.
Except in an emergency, and even that was controversial, the president does not have Art. II power to create or suspend the writ. The raw power to do what they want is always there. It isn't legitimately present.
two years later
Congress did so in August 1861 after coming back into session a month before.
==
* If people want to get into the weeds, Steven Vladeck argues in a law article that Congress, by existing law, gave presidents like Lincoln the authority to act in such an emergency. If so, Congress still acted in the situation.
https://www.stevevladeck.com/p/65-lincoln-taney-and-ex-parte-merryman
Lincoln was barely pretending to follow the Constitution, and not even bothering to pretend at times. This is simply not a Presidential power, period, end of story.
I believe habeas corpus is a common law writ, not the product of legislative action.
"Habeas corpus originally stems from the Assize of Clarendon of 1166, a reissuance of rights during the reign of Henry II of England in the 12th century.[13] The foundations for habeas corpus are "wrongly thought" to have originated in Magna Carta but in fact predate it.[14] This charter declared that:
No Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseized of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land."
From Wikipedia
I am fine with a gloss to clarify that the "existing writ" was not "produced" by the legislature. It was "crafted" by the legislature like clay in various ways to safeguard liberty. See, e.g., the Habeas Corpus Act of 1679. Others can discuss its exact origins.
You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that Air Bud is fiction.
Man you people are idiots. There's really no other way to put it. Do you really imagine that the left will never again be in power? And yet you're bending over backward to try to strip away what has for centuries been considered among the most important protections of individual liberty and finding excuses to massively concentrate power in the hands of the federal government. I guess every village has its idiot, but how did we come to get so many of them
My history of law is a little fuzzy, but I recall that Lincoln and Taney had this exact argument in 1861. Lincoln argued that the Constitution was silent on who could suspend habeas corpus, and that the President should certainly be able to exercise it in response to danger, which was the whole point of the suspension in the first place.
Yes, and couldn't Trump use that as precedent to do the same? Again, I'm not saying he should or shouldn't, I'm not opining on Trump or Biden or Grover Cleveland. But IANAL and lawyers love to quibble over this stuff, which is why I ask.
Your memory's not as fuzzy as you think. Your recollection of Lincoln's argument is essentially correct. (You even remembered Lincoln's terminology—he said the Constitution itself is silent on this matter.) Here is an excerpt of Lincoln's message to Congress on July 4th, 1861, where he defends his position:
"Now it is insisted that Congress, and not the Executive, is vested with this power; but the Constitution itself is silent as to which or who is to exercise the power; and as the provision was plainly made for a dangerous emergency, it can not be believed the framers of the instrument intended that in every case the danger should run its course until Congress could be called together, the very assembling of which might be prevented, as was intended in this case, by the rebellion."
But the Constitution is not silent on this, because the reference to suspending it was in Article 1, not Article 2, and THAT is the Constitution's way of clearly saying "Congress, not the President".
Lincoln was just rationalizing violating the Constitution. He did that a lot.
OK, so I was prodded into looking up Article I again and finding the place where Habeas Corpus is dealt with. It's not under Section 8, "Powers of Congress", but under Section 9, "Powers Denied Congress":
I'm not sure what to make of this placement, but at best it means that Congress indeed has this power (though with conditions). It's arguable whether they meant they had sole power. A sole power would have been listed in Section 8, along with all the others reserved to Congress (levy taxes, etc.)
Details matter.
I agree and would add that the habeas corpus provision was originally located in provisions dealing with the judicial power and was ultimately moved to Article I by the Constitutional Convention's Committee on Style and Arrangement. In its earliest form, the clause read as a legislative restriction as well:
"The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion, nor touching or abridging the liberty of the press; nor shall the privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus ever be suspended, except in case of rebellion or invasion."
So either the location of the clause in Article I is of no importance, it is purely a matter of style, not substance, or it was arranged purposely with other restrictions on legislative power.
All the Section 9 limitations are limitations on the powers granted by Section 8, in particular the power to make necessary and proper laws for exercising its other powers. Congress can lay and collect taxes, regulate commerce, establish inferior courts, raise armies etc., but it can't declare that suspension of habeas corpus is necessary and proper for the exercise of any of those powers, just as it cannot impose export taxes or do various other things.
"No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by law" also limits the executive.
Also, the Titles of Nobility Clause references "the United States" and limits what a "person" can do. It is not just a restraint on Congress.
Sure, but then there is no importance to the placement of the habeus corpus clause in Article 1 to support the claim that only the legislature may suspend the writ. Section 9 deals with limits on federal government as Section 10 deals with limits on state governments.
"it is ultimately up to Congress whether the writ should be suspended (at least during times of peace)."
It can't be suspended *at all* in times of peace!
"An invasion" is not a time of peace!
A military invasion, not a mass migration. If that is a problem, contact your congressman.
Also, once Congress had time to deal with it, which it has, it cannot be claimed to be an emergency anymore, said extraordinary powers of the president premised on the need to act quickly before Congress has time to react.
Are you suggesting that the Constitution somehow denies the President the right to decide when the restrictions in the Constitution apply to his own actions? Doesn't that go against the Constitution's clear anointment of the President as King of America*?
(* See Trump's latest EO, re-naming the Presidency.)
If Trump so much as tries suspending the writ of Habeas, I'm done with defending him. That's a line in the sand for me.
I had such great... not exactly hope, but such great shortfall of despair, for him. I still think that he's trying to do the right things, but how you do things MATTERS, and he always seems to pick the worst possible way.
I'm starting to think that's not him being clumsy, it's deliberate.
Trump is a narcissistic and narcissists only care about being in the spotlight…so they don’t care about the results as long as everyone is talking about them.
Keep in mind with Fortune 500 CEOs and Popes and major party presidential candidates the process is about managing downside risk. Trump governed like an impotent Jeb Bush in his first term…and before Covid he did a fine job although he increased deficit/GDP ratio above what he inherited which is what you should care about but you don’t.
The term you're looking for is "damaged goods".
Trump isn't "deliberately" doing anything, except being himself.
The fact that it’s even being considered should be enough.
Your rock-bottom and mine are different but at least you finally found it.
The more fundamental political pathology at work here is the Trump administration, and perhaps Trump himself, finds it useful to talk tough like this. That's terribly damaging even if they are not truly serious. But they actually might be.
It's why I couldn't ever vote for him. I won't vote for any candidate who behaves or countenances behavior like this. I did see this coming.
I do have enduring faith in the American belief in the rule of law. I absolutely believe we would see mass resignations and state level pushback were they ever to try such a thing. Obviously Congress would never ratify it, like they did for Lincoln.
Frankly it would be the biggest political mistake in our history, something Trump could never come back from. It would also be incredibly costly.
"The more fundamental political pathology at work here is the Trump administration, and perhaps Trump himself, finds it useful to talk tough like this."
I've observed that.
When the government wants to effectively enforce a law, it has to achieve a high enough ratio of (Probability of being caught*consequences of being caught)/Benefit from commission of the crime. In cases, like drug law enforcement, where the probability of being caught is relatively low, and the benefits of the crime are fairly high, the only way to do this is to drive the perceived consequences of being caught sky high.
Generally higher than the 8th amendment would permit... So the consequences have to be imposed informally.
Trump is trying to drive up the perceived probability of being caught by various procedural shortcuts, and he's trying to drive up the consequences of being cut by more procedural shortcuts AND the threat of CENCOT if you do get caught. With the aim being to highly motivate illegals to cease the crime, self deport, without having to actually be caught.
The problem is that the procedural shortcuts aren't legal, and the procedure is there to protect the innocent, and while deportation by itself isn't the sort of "punishment" requiring a criminal trial, sticking somebody in CENCOT certainly is.
I really think Congress could short circuit this dynamic in the Trump administration by, as I've said, picking up their share of the load, instead of leaving Trump with inadequate resources to do the job in a constitutional manner. They should, they ran on deportation just as much as Trump did.
But they probably won't, because a substantial number of them, unlike Trump, were lying when they ran on that platform.
None of this excuses Trump's procedural violations, it's just explaining the reason he's resorting to them, and understanding the why is important to understanding how to persuade him to cut it out.
The military has been awarding the "Global War on Terror" Medal since March 2003, hence, there is a "War" in progress.
I propose the mayor of Newark to be the first prisoner in the re-opened Alcatraz US Penitentiary, maybe Guantanamo if the Rock's not ready.
We can be sure that most of the cultists would continue to defend Trump even if he tried to suspend it.
This country would not be worse of if Miller were bumped off.
Advocating assassination? Classy.
I suspect he's ultimately as serious about that as Miller is about actually suspending the writ.
As I said to the beadly one, I was not advocating for assassination, merely recognising that some people's continued existence does not benefit the US. There are plenty of cultists here who happily accept that when it comes to some other people.
There are many people whose elimination would not make the country worse off. That is different from advocating for their elimination.
FWIW, though, I note that advocating for assassination is generally a matter of degree, not principle, if one accept the idea that assassinating Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot would not be a terrible act.
Arguably, the chief benefactor of the Butler assassination attempt would have been...JD Vance(TM).
The pitch fork people on the Right are happy to see Trump wage these challenges to Executive power, and the courts are just as willing to go to battle as well. The timid, silent party is our Congress.
My order of preference for who gets to win the day is strictly based on how accountable to voters the actors are. Congress faces the highest degree, the President second, and the Courts dead last.
The most important branch in our current struggle is steadfastly in the bleachers, cheering on the contestants. They aren't even on the sidelines, much less the game.
Is Abrego Garcia back yet? He isn't. The courts need to be mindful that they are the weakest branch. Don't pick a losing battle and expect to win. Words on an ancient scroll are irrelevant, even if it's called the Constitution. Deeds matter, and Trump can put people on a plane and dare courts to do something about it.
By a more than 2-1 margin, the country opposed Biden's border polices. The way most see it: If Biden can let millions of people in and grant asylum through executive order, Trump should be able to take it away and remove them. "Invasion" may be a term of art in the legal profession; however, in the political sphere, people identify Biden's open border policies as an invasion. If you are arguing legal niceties, you are losing.
All the immigration lawfare against Trump has had the side effect of making the judiciary look like nothing more than an arm of the open-border Democrats. Midnight ex-parte rulings, ordering planes to turn around, and continuing contempt hearings even after the Supreme Court has removed jurisdiction are *not* the ways to convince people courts are neutral.
People need to take stock of the fact that they lost on immigration, and people want these campus agitators, human traffickers, and fentanyl dealers gone.
I see this as a threat to jawbone and take the judiciary out of the equation when it comes to immigration laws. As when FDR threatened to pack the Supreme Court, I think it will work. I don't really think habeas will be suspended. But then again, if federal judges without jurisdiction keep ordering planes to turn around...idk.
What people *really* need to come to grips with is that if Trump puts people on a plane, there is nothing anyone can do about it. And defending the likes of Abrego Garcia only sets Democrats up to lose more seats in 2026. Remember: when the constitution gets suspended, it's because it was the popular thing to do, not the right thing. Defending the student visa of antisemitic campus agitators is not the way to bring people to your side.
I'm sure this made sense to you, but it just reads like Presidential power has no checks so long as dwb68 agrees with how it's used.
Anyone claiming otherwise is doing a lawfare.
I suppose those left defending this are gonna be angry simpletons, but my man, are you okay?
Also, people should ask themselves...What if Congress really does suspend habeas, because courts won't get out of the way of deporting people? Is that a better solution? Really?!
Trump does not need a reason to deport people here illegally. Nor does he need a reason to revoke student visas. Migration is not a right. Courts need to get out of the way, or they will get run over.
Most folks don't think the ends justify the means. Even if the ends are popular.
Popular like, just for example, mass student loan forgiveness? I recall vividly how hard you railed in opposition to that gotta-find-a-way exercise.
Who, me? You recall something I said "vividly?" Thank you, I am glad I made such an impression! Honestly, I can't recall a single post of yours. But then I tend to think your a bot.
You know, there are times around here where it can get hard to follow the threading, but this certainly wasn't one of them. I do appreciate the kind words, though.
Do you now? Because I remember saying I thought it wasn't within Biden's powers:
"There needs to be some judicial mechanism to review potentially ultra vires executive action, and as it stands if a benefit is given there is no review; Congress has to act and then it's a political question.
This applies to student loan forgiveness, and immigration policy, etc."
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/03/08/federal-district-court-rules-red-states-lack-standing-to-challenge-legality-of-immigration-parole-program-for-migrants-from-four-latin-american-countries/?comments=true#comment-10479914
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I don't think Biden openly defied the Supreme Court, but that's not the same thing as thinking he was right.
It's not a bad try, but a generic statement that there needs to be a judicial mechanism to review topics X/Y/Z of course doesn't say anything about your personal positions on topics X/Y/Z.
When you did the latter, you were staunchly in favor of Biden's forgiveness plan. A few highlights from one in-depth discussion:
Not one solitary word about you believing it wasn't within Biden's powers, and indeed given everything I quoted above you could only have done so with glee that it was happening anyway.
Oops, missed the broken link.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/06/30/biden-says-he-will-try-to-do-student-loan-forgiveness-under-the-higher-education-act-of-1965/?comments=true
Yes, I can think something is good policy and yet not something the President can do.
You may have trouble with distinguishing between ends and means, but I do not.
Sorry, but you don't fervently cheerlead for something you think is wrong-headed.
Oh, plus you didn't say anything at all about him not being able to do it in that rather extensive discussion about... whether he could do it.
At best, you were being cagey to keep your options open for moments like this.
Below I linked to 2 other examples of me at the time openly saying I thought Biden was wrong.
Your accusation was off base.
As I noted below, those examples weren't "at the time" at all, but about 9 months before you laid down the above unqualified lovefest, which I remembered quite correctly. Keep squirming.
yeah i didnt make a single comment in that thread...and the one you attribute to me wasnt me. I think you mean that for sarcastr0 not me.
Seriously, are you OK? Sarcastr0 is indeed the one I replied to. Go back and look at my post, and let your eyes gently drift upward about an inch and a half.
"I agree Biden is ahead of his skiis, but good lord take off the melodrama hat."
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/10/20/federal-court-issues-dubious-decision-dismissing-six-state-lawsuit-against-biden-loan-forgiveness-program-for-lack-of-standing/?comments=true#comment-9756447
"I think both of these actions [loan forgiveness and Trump diverting funds to his wall] are executive overreach, and unconstitutional."
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/09/29/six-states-file-lawsuit-challenging-biden-student-debt-cancellation-program/?comments=true#comment-9726479
OK, so you were against it about 9 months before you were for it. Perfect strategy -- that way whatever your position is today, you can point back at SOMETHING you said in the past to claim consistency. Really stellar good faith.
Your thesis was: "how hard you railed in opposition to that gotta-find-a-way exercise."
I showed on-point contempranious contradiction to this.
Your dissembling about ends and means is flailing. You've never really contradicted Trump so you can't imagine I might have criticized Biden.
Surprise, I'm not the tool you are.
Your vivid memory that I has been proven to be flatly wrong, and you're flailing.
Take a seat; you're cooked.
It really is like playing chess with a pigeon: you knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and strut around like you've won.
Too bad "contemporaneous" doesn't mean what you need it to mean to pull off your feigned indignation. In June 2023, you were overjoyed it was happening. You can't get away from that, so you're trying to distract with something else you said about one Supreme Court case earlier.
(Which, as I think about it, makes it even more cynical: you briefly alleged to be against it, but then the very day SCOTUS agreed it was wrong you immediately flipped to unqualified cheering for it.)
The point here, which some of us have been making for the past 4 (and 16) years is that Democrat malfeasance also corrodes the rule of law. This is something you have consistently denied, for reasons I could speculate about but won't advance the conversation here.
When one side skirts the law, it makes it easier to justify the other side doing it when they get the chance. The problem here is that people like you believe your side doing it was in good faith, that the law was actually unclear. Too bad, now you get to reap what you have sown.
Those of us critical of Democrat administrations were not just being critical about the policy being pursued. We were concerned about the unlawful way the policy was being pursued.
Don't try and use Trump acting like a maniac to relitigate past partisan grievances.
A partisan moral high horse is fun for you to personally feel righteous but to everyone else, it's tiresome and off topic grudge-keeping.
You call Trump out; you don't fit in the MAGA box. Doesn't mean I'm going to suddenly find your confident but wrong legal hot takes any less wrong, nor your huge partisan chip on your shoulder any less unseemly.
Don't try to use present partisan grievances to bar having your own past offenses thrown in your face.
This is a consistent theme of yours: When you're complaining that somebody's shit stinks, you forbid them from pointing out that yours does, too. Why would they comply?
You think we got here from a state of everything being just peachy? No, the rule of law in this country has been deteriorating at an accelerating rate for most of a century, and for most of that time Democrats were the ones tearing away at it.
But you don't want to talk about that, which makes us think your end game here is NOT a restoration of the rule of law, just Democrats getting a monopoly on violating it.
Few things are more corrosive in politics than the conviction that you have been wronged so much that you're justified in breaking all the rules to get even.
"You're not allowed to take note of my side's crimes because it might prompt you to emulate them!" is not the winning argument you imagine it to be.
"Also, people should ask themselves...What if Congress really does suspend habeas, because courts won't get out of the way of deporting people? Is that a better solution? Really?!"
OF COURSE IT IS! Are you serious? Living in a world where a significant protection of liberty is suspended because hundreds of elected representatives in the house and Senate determined it was necessary and the president found it necessary to exercise this additional power, even if i thought it stupid and unnecessary, is vastly better than living in a world where the president can do so entirely on his own every time he gets a bee in his bonnet. Process matters, structural protections of freedom matter. How did the right get so stupid as to forget this. I'd also add that the constitution put a clearly articulated limit on the circumstances in which it can be done, so the courts have a role too. This is how freedom is protected. Freedom is lost when people become too dumb to remember that
I am reminded of Huey Long's admonition: "When Fascism Comes to America, It Will Come Under the Guise of Anti-fascism."
The first best solution is for courts to realize migration is not a right, and allow people here illegally to be deported.
It couldn't t for the president to -- you know -- recognize that he doesn't have personal authority to make immigration laws, or in fact, any laws at all, to enforce the immigration laws as written, and to stop engaging in clearly unconstitutional stunts like sending people to permanent imprisonment in El Salvador, or incarcerating op-ed writing students who pose no threat to the nation and, you know, respect the process created by Congress instead of engaging in arbitrary conduct and using shock tactics designed to scare people rather than because any necessity compels them. And while you're asking questions that you think people should ask, maybe ask yourself why every single Trump appointee to the supreme court rejected out of hand three president's belief that he could just arbitrarily detain people without notice and a right to be heard. That is, stop to entertain the possibility that Trump's trouble isn't because of lib judges but because he's actually acting contrary to law.
Seems to me the first best solution is for MAGA to stop being such racist fuckwads about immigration.
Its not racist to think we should vet migrants. Letting the border become was an uncontrolled chaotic mess was a major mistake. Funny enough, the deep blue cities didnt want people sucking public resources any more than anyone else. What was the plan, let a billion people in willy nilly? That was never a good idea.
Like anything, immigration is good when its in moderation. It should be easier for STEM phds to emigrate, for example. Harder for drug dealers.
Now that Biden made a hot mess of border security, will have to go all the way to the other end of the spectrum to establish that the border CAN be controlled before we discuss letting people in.
That is in fact the key thing here: Deportation isn't just about being mean. It's driving home the fact that, even if one administration decides to illegally let you in, you can NOT count on the next administration letting you stay. That there is no adverse possession rule when it comes to illegal presence in the country, you will be uprooted and thrown out no matter how long you've been here, so don't even bother trying to hide.
'Must break the rules to go fast and irreversibly, because we may lose an election later.'
Fuck you, this is terrible.
I agree he's breaking the rules. He's breaking the rules to carry through on a promise to enforce immigration laws.
You know what we call it when President breaks the rules to break a promise to enforce immigration laws?
Tuesday.
There's no such thing as suspending habeas just for deportations.
Again, due process habeas protections to aliens are more for the benefit of citizens.
Steven Miller: not actually a lawyer!
As always, Steve Vladeck gets right to the nut of it:
Miller gives away the game when he says “a lot of it depends on whether the courts do the right thing or not.” It’s not just the mafia-esque threat implicit in this statement […] it’s that he’s telling on himself: He’s suggesting that the administration would (unlawfully) suspend habeas corpus if (but apparently only if) it disagrees with how courts rule in these cases. In other words, it’s not the judicial review itself that’s imperiling national security; it’s the possibility that the government might lose. That’s not, and has never been, a viable argument for suspending habeas corpus.
The legal community continues to obliterate its credibility by claiming that the illegal entrance of twelve million foreigners in not an invasion. You just can't make up the insanity generated by blind pro-immigration ideologues.
12 people, 12 thousand people, or 12 million people: migration is not invasion.
idk, "12 million people illegally pouring across the border" certainly sounds like an invasion. Maybe not in the legal sense. To the average person, tho, i think youd have a hard time convincing them otherwise.
Amen, brother! Reminds me of a really cool series I watched last year on how the Vikings... um, migrated to Britain. Unfortunately remittances didn't exist back then, so they actually had to sail back with their... um, earnings each time. Technology for the W!
So, what's the definition of 'invasion' that you believe the Founders intended to apply to the Constitution?
Organized military force used by a government with the intent to wage war. See, e.g., US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, Iraq invasion of Kuwait (although couched as a civil war), Russian invasion of Ukraine (also couched as a civil war), Germany invasion of France and Russia.
The immigration we see today is a disorganized mass of people seeking a better life. It might be a crisis. It is not an invasion as contemplated by the Constitution or the 1798 law.
From what I have been reading lately, a district judge can suspend it nationwide if he wants to.
District judges can do anything.
I'm not going to go thrrough all of these arguments, but I'll just lend my voice to say that I'm aware of no serious modern jurist or academic who argues that the president has suspension power. (And I would probably know.)
As folks have pointed out, the anti-suspension clause is part of restrictions on congressional power. The idea that Congress would have less suspension power than the executive is preposterous, if you know anything about Lord North's suspensions during the Revolutionary War and the role they played in shaping the Clause. Given that the most essentialized function of habeas is to restrain an over-detaining executive, the argument that the executive also gets to determine when to suspend habeas is conceptually confused, and deeply so.