The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Rights and Wrongs of the Supreme Court's Ruling in the Alien Enemies Act Case
The Supreme Court oveturns lower court decisions temporarily barring AEA deportations, but also emphasizes that detainees are entitled to due process, and that AEA deportations are subject to judicial review.

Tonight's Supreme Court ruling in Trump v. JGG is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it overturns lower court rulings temporarily barring deportations under the Alien Enemies Act. But it also makes clear that migrant detained for deportation under the AEA are entitled to due process, and that the president's invocation of the Act is subject to judicial review. I go over the crucial issues at stake in the AEA litigation here, here, and here.
A closely divided 5-4 majority (with Justice Amy Coney Barrett joining the three liberal justices in dissent), ruled that the case should have been tried in Texas (where the detained Venezuelan migrants are now held), rather than in Washington DC, because habeas corpus cases must be heard at the location of detention.
I am not expert on these kinds of venue issues, and therefore cannot say much about them. But it does seem to me the majority got this wrong, for reasons outlined in Justice Sotomayor's dissent. See also this analysis by Lee Kovarsky, a leading academic expert on habeas.
In a detailed discussion of tonight's ruling, Prof. Steve Vladeck argues that limiting the detainees' options to habeas corpus challenges will make it much harder for them to litigate their cases, in part by preventing systematic remedies, as opposed to ones limited to individual habeas petitioners. Justice Sotomayor eloquently expresses similar concerns in her forceful dissent. They may be right. But much depends on whether AEA detainees can file habeas class actions. If the answer is yes, systematic remedies will be available, and individual migrants won't have to all litigate their cases separately. The ACLU and other public interest groups are likely to help the detainees file such a class action. Habeas class actions are permitted in at least some immigration contexts. I lack the expertise to assess whether they can or will be used here. But I flag this issue as a crucial one to consider.
While the Trump Administration succeeded in getting the lower-court rulings vacated, it suffered a potentially important setback by virtue of the Court's ruling that migrants targeted for deportation under the AEA are entitled to due process:
"It is well established that the Fifth Amendment entitles aliens to due process of law" in the context of removal proceedings. Reno v. Flores, 507 U. S. 292, 306 (1993). So, the detainees are entitled to notice and opportunity to be heard "appropriate to the nature of the case." Mullane v. Central Hanover Bank & Trust Co., 339 U. S. 306, 313 (1950). More specifically, in this context, AEA detainees must receive notice after the date of this order that they are subject to removal under the Act. The notice must be afforded within a reasonable time and in such a manner as will allow them to actually seek habeas relief in the proper venue before such removal occurs.
While I differ with much of what Josh Blackman says in his post about the case, he is right to describe this part of the ruling as "a very quiet defeat for the Trump Administration, which sought to spirit the aliens away without any hearing." How big a defeat it is may in part depend on exactly what qualifies as "a reasonable time" and "a manner as will allow them to actually seek habeas relief in the proper venue before such removal occurs."
The majority also holds that judicial review is available with respect to the applicability of the AEA, which only allows detention and deportation in the event of a declared war, or an "invasion" or "predatory incursion" perpetrated by a "foreign nation or government":
Although judicial review under the AEA is limited, we have held that an individual subject to detention and removal under that statute is entitled to "'judicial
review'" as to "questions of interpretation and constitutionality" of the Act as well as whether he or she "is in fact an alien enemy fourteen years of age or older." Ludecke, 335 U. S., at 163−164, 172, n. 17.
It seems obvious that "questions of interpretation and constitutionality" include the issues of whether there is an "invasion" or "predatory incursion" going on, and whether the Tren de Aragua drug gang qualifies as a "foreign nation or government" (Trump's invocation of the AEA is limited to Venezuelans who are members of that organization). This undercuts the administration's claims that all these issues are "political questions not subject to judicial review. In earlier writings about these issues, I have emphasized that the meaning of "invasion" in the AEA tracks the meaning of the same term in the Constitution, which is limited to acts of war, not mere illegal migration or drug smuggling.
Steve Vladeck suggests that the transfer of the litigation to Texas will benefit the Trump Administration, because the federal judges in the Fifth Circuit are generally more conservative than elsewhere. He is likely right about that. But it's worth noting that the Fifth Circuit has twice ruled that illegal migration and drug smuggling do not qualify as "invasion" under the Constitution (see my discussion here and here), which suggests a similar interpretation applies to the use of invasion in the AEA (enacted just a few years later). One of these cases, was later overturned on other grounds by the en banc Fifth Circuit.
In that en banc case, prominent conservative Fifth Circuit Judge James Ho wrote a badly flawed concurring opinion arguing that illegal migration does qualify as "invasion" (see my critique here). But, significantly, none of the other 17 Fifth Circuit judges joined him. That suggests the argument has little, if any, support from his colleagues.
In sum, tonight's Supreme Court ruling is very much a mixed bag. The legal battle over the Alien Enemies Act will continue.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Did I call it or what?
"I'm sure Ilya and or Kovarsky will be along later to explain why the court was wrong, because they of course had it right."
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/04/07/district-court-and-fourth-circuit-order-trump-administration-to-return-wrongfully-deported-immigrant/?comments=true#comment-10993479
"Law Professors never go back and explain what they got wrong and why when their argument loses in court, they go back and explain what the court got wrong, and why."
You called it. Ok, that was your second victory lap, heh.
lol, that was great.
Law professors are not conceited. They're convinced.
When I saw the headline and byline your comment was the first thing that came to mind. Congratulations.
A person pre-Roe explains how the Constitution does not protect a person's right to choose an abortion. The Supreme Court holds otherwise. Is the person "wrong" because they agreed with the dissent? Someone might predict what a court will do ala Josh Blackman. Often, however, they say what they should do given the existing law. The fact that the majority twisted the law, if they did, doesn't make the critics wrong.
So how did they twist the law?
As I said below, the petitioners originally filed habeas petitions, were they trying to twist the law? They were definitely trying to get a more favorable venue.
I don't think you can make a cogent case the Supreme Court is trying to twist the law when the petitioners already knew habeas is the remedy.
I don't think the petitioner's knew that habeas was the ONLY remedy because they didn't file ONLY habeas counts and they weren't asking for release from detention. Because they weren't asking for release from confinement and made a bunch of other claims, filing exclusively in habeas is not what the precedents said they had to do.
And I think it frankly suspect that the court, in construing an extremely old statute, cited a case from ww2 the last time it was invoked to decide this issue (of habeas exclusivity) when there was more recent precedent (more on point?) since ww2 and the court ignored them. As the lower courts have acknowledged, habeas being the exclusive or sole remedy for the alien enemies act is the product of history. Were people using the administrative procedure act during world war of 1812? WW1? What about the global war on terror? Why would petitioner's think that habeas is the *sole* vehicle to use if they weren't disputing the lawfulness of their detention and not seeking release from custody?? It's not at all obvious and the majority gives short shrift to the topic and the reasoning of the lower courts (and the precedents they cite) for why habeas *wasn't* exclusive. Let alone discussion of class certification for claims common to the whole class of people affected by the invocation of the AEA.
What precedent exists that contravenes Ludecke's command that the APA doesn't apply?
'As Congress explicitly recognized in the recent Administrative Procedure Act, some statutes "preclude judicial review." Barring questions of interpretation and constitutionality, the Alien Enemy Act of 1798 is such a statute.'
Were not some or the majority of arguments in petitioner's complaint related to interpretation or constitutionality of Trump's invocation of the AEA? I seem to recall they all were. The one habeas complaint was voluntarily dismissed.
Which leads to Dept of Homeland Sec vs Thuraissigiam, 591 US 103 (2020) (discussing what is 'core' habeas) and a host of cases that stand for the proposition that claims outside of habeas' 'core' need not follow the habeas line of cases which have the place of confinement venue rule. Shaughnessy v. Pedreiro, 349 U.S. 48, 52 (1955)(Section 10 of the APA itself provided “a right of judicial review of deportation orders other than by habeas corpus.”)
Citizens Protective League v Clark, 155 F.2d 290 (DC Cir 1946) was a challenge to the alien enemies act and was not brought in habeas. It's not US Sup Ct precedent, but DC Circuit precedent that Judge Boasburg would be likely bound by. But Ludeke, since its what the Court relied on, shouldn't foreclose other options. Ludeke argued the war was over so he was no longer subject to the alien enemies act. In that case, on that subject, the Court deferred to the other branches. But there was an actual declaration of war so that part was not in dispute whereas here; every aspect of the invocation of the AEA is under dispute. The gang isn't a nation or government, there isn't a war, there was no predatory incurasion, the people being removed aren't members of TdA, etc...
I could go on but its not worth the effort now that the US Sup Ct had made its ruling. I just don't think the plaintiffs were wrong to file in D.C. when the precedents they had said they could and the majority opinion doesn't address these other cases & construes the plaintiffs complaint as one challenging their detention when they went out of their way to NOT challenge their detention i.e, they never asked for release.
I agree. For example, if SCOTUS holds that the citizenship clause requires that the offspring of birth tourists are citizens, they will be wrong, as a matter of original meaning. But that does not by any stretch mean they won't do it.
I mean, "birth tourism" is like Sasquatch, but as a matter of history, text, and understanding, they would be correct.
Interested In Giving Birth In the USA?
"Our OB-GYN medical group specializes in a comprehensive maternity program in El Paso, Texas, designed for international patients interested in birth tourism. Our program not only provides top-quality medical care but also offers the unique opportunity to secure U.S. citizenship for your child, the right way. Ultimately, we provide you the flexibility to begin your prenatal care in your home country and seamlessly transition to our program at the last stage of pregnancy, ensuring excellent care throughout your pregnancy and the birth of your baby."
But, whatever you want to believe, I suppose you're going to believe, regardless.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/27/us/woman-sentenced-chinese-birth-tourism-intl-hnk/index.html
https://apnews.com/article/health-donald-trump-ap-top-news-international-news-politics-d4c42c5311ba8a6661855cadd12f0fed
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/dec/11/birth-tourism-documentary-china-us-citizenship
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/02/28/trump-birthright-citizenship-birth-tourism-brazil/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/05/the-shadowy-world-of-birth-tourism-at-californias-luxury-maternity-hotels/
anecdotal
adjective
an·ec·dot·al ˌa-nik-ˈdō-tᵊl
1
: based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers
anecdotal evidence
health benefits that may be more anecdotal than factual
So, Sasquatch exists and there are thousands of them? But they're, like, a relatively small percentage of mammals in the forest? Is that your point?
THOUSANDS!
I can find reporting of sasquatch sightings too. Just not in the lying MSM.
Anecdotal, and you went back 10 years.
Not great, ML!
This is dumb even for you. There are entire industries in other countries for birth tourism.
Amazing how willingly you look dumb in order to push a narrative.
Sure there are. That’s why ML and you had all that proof.
There are more articles about "birth tourism," all saying that there's no actual evidence of its frequency, then there are confirmed examples of it.
How is your example working out these days?
“ I am not expert on these kinds of venue issues, and therefore cannot say much about them. But it does seem to me the majority got this wrong”
Ilya has never had an admittedly ill-informed opinion he felt shouldn’t be shared.
Ilya is trying to keep hope alive:
"They may be right. But much depends on whether AEA detainees can file habeas class actions. If the answer is yes, systematic remedies will be available, and individual migrants won't have to all litigate their cases separately."
But even Sotomayor's dissent (part II which kind of reads like a partial concurrence) doesn't seem to provide much encouragement for establishing a class:
"Begin with that upon which all nine Members of this
Court agree. The Court’s order today dictates, in no uncertain terms, that “individual[s] subject to detention and removal under the [Alien Enemies Act are] entitled to ‘judicial review’ as to ‘questions of interpretation and constitutionality’ of the Act as well as whether he or she ‘is in fact an alien enemy fourteen years of age or older.’”
Such a fact based enquiry as to whether they are an alien, member of TdA, and over 14, doesn't seem conducive to forming a class. The few who may not actually be TdA will not want to join a class with those who are, and the ones that are have little hope of succeeding.
And the controling majority cites Ludeke which has already upheld the constitutionality of the act as long as the specific facts of each detainee can be disputed:
"Although judicial review under the AEA is
limited, we have held that an individual subject to deten
tion and removal under that statute is entitled to “‘judicial
review’” as to “questions of interpretation and constitution
ality” of the Act as well as whether he or she “is in fact an
alien enemy fourteen years of age or older.” Ludecke, 335
U. S., at 163−164, 172, n. 17. (Under the Proclamation, the
term “alien enemy” is defined to include “all Venezuelan cit
izens 14 years of age or older who are members of TdA, are
within the United States, and are not actually naturalized
or lawful permanent residents of the United States.”
I’m not sure if class action is available, but your TdA a “government” within the meaning of the AEA? Is it engaged in a “war,” “invasion,” or “incursion” within the meaning of the statute? The answer to these questions would appear to be identical for every alleged member of TdA. If the answer to either question is “no,” then none of the alleged members of TdA are in fact alien enemies regardless of their actual membership in TdA, or their age.
In Ludecke, the initiation of a war between Germany and the United States was not disputed, only whether it had ended. Congress had formally declared war and there was no peace treaty; the Court said that closed the matter as far as the courts were concerned.
In this case, Congress did not declare any war. The President has no power ro declare war by proclamation. The power to declare war lies solely in Congress. Whether any war between the United States and TdA actually exists, or whether TdA has ever engaged in an “invasion” or “incursion” within the meaning of the statute is in this case, unlike Ludecke, hotly disputed.
I’m not sure if class action is available, but your argument it isn’t strikes me as incorrect. Is TdA a government…
AEA - uses the term "or"
Does it define the term government with a limitation to a government of a recognized country?
Is Tda a quasi government?
title 50 section 21
"Whenever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government, or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government, "
There is little dispute that the Tda is a gang that is part of a predatory incursion.
The statute uses the term foreign nation which Tda would not meet that definition. The term government is not defined in the statute, Thus the question of whether the tda organization is a government if the funding from the Venzulain government would meet that definition. advocates for the TDa gang should not be so quick for such a summary dismissal of application of the statute.
There is in fact major dispute that TdA is "part of a predatory incursion." They're criminals, not insurgents.
Define the difference.
There is no dispute except from those that deny the facts.
Tda is a large organized gang .
Another subject on which bookkeeper_joe is an expert! But so what if they are? A gang is not a militia. They're drug dealers.
The esteemed attorney cant even get the statute correct
AEA - doesnt require "militia" -
The term is predatory incursion.
It has to be a predatory incursion by the government of Venezuela. You have to show that Venezuela sent TdA as a "predatory incursion." The fact that we have not declared war with Venezuela over this, despite a significant passage of time, indicates that we do not believe the Venezuelan government is genuinely behind TdA.
The statute doesnt define "government".
So your additional phrase "by the government of Venezuela" is not a valid interpretation of the statement.
The “additional phrase” is in the statute, which limits the predatory incursion to one by a “by any foreign nation or government”.
Nos sociis
The word is
"or"
Not "and"
Statutory construction 101
Attorneys shouldnt need remedial education on something so basic
Is it your contention that Tren de Aragua is a nation, or that it’s a government?
Is that another class that you think you're an expert in because you took high school biology?
"Is it your contention that Tren de Aragua is a nation, or that it’s a government?"
I think his argument is that TdA is sufficiently entangled with the government of Venezula that it qualifies as a government actor for these purposes, even if it isn't itself the government. As though they were privateers, say.
Which means it takes its ordinary meaning, which requires that the entity be the government of something, not just a group of people.
The Administration has determined that TdA is working with/for Maduro.
If that were really the case, we should be at war with Venezuela
No. There are things known as proxy wars, and they are conducted for reasons.
Can you point out where that appears in the Annual Threat Assessment?
https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/ATA-2025-Unclassified-Report.pdf
"The power to declare war lies solely in Congress."
I'll certainly agree that the power to initiate war on our end lies solely with Congress. The fact remains that other countries can start wars with us without any Congressional action, so the absence of a Congressional declaration of war doesn't establish that there isn't a war.
That’s certainly true. And whether that’s the case here or not is something habeas courts will have to decide.
kazinski had said that a class action was impossible because there were no common issues. But this issue - whether the statutory conditions under which Congress authorizes the President to invoke the Act and issue a proclamation actually happened here - is indeed an issue common to them all.
Class action may still not be available. It’s by no means clear that it’s a thing in a habeas case. But not for the reason that Kazinski gave.
It may be that the Supreme court will declare that the courts are not competent to dispute a Presidential declaration in this area; Though I think a revival of non-delegation doctrine would be a good thing, frequently the statutory definition of things like "war" or "emergency" really IS just, "Does the President say so?", leaving the courts with little basis for disputing the President.
frequently the statutory definition of things like "war" or "emergency" really IS just, "Does the President say so?",
Why would you think words don't mean things? If they want to give the President full discretion, Congress knows how to do that.
In law, worlds mean what they're defined to mean in statutes. And if the statute says the President decides if there's an "emergency", then the meaning in the law of "emergency" is, "The President says there's an emergency.".
As I said, I'd love to see a return of non-delegation doctrine. For all Presidents, not just Trump. But not just for Trump. I want him treated as a normal President.
This business of words meaning things seems a strange fit for you; Weren't you all in favor of state executives getting to decide that Covid was an "emergency" long after it arrived, and after the legislatures of those states had ample time to enact changes to the election law on a normal legislative schedule?
About a return to non-delegation doctrine...me too. Like I think you just said, I don't accept liberals trying to use the MQD to carve out a one-off exception to their preferred policy, just because the Orange Man is Bad.
Statutory authorizations for presidential declarations of emergencies are the law, and do not violate any non-hack understanding of the MQD. MQD would be applicable if EPA ever tried to ban (or regulate out of existence) gasoline automobiles from its general statutory delegation about clean air. Realize that day is still coming. Emergency declarations to do things specifically authorized by law are nothing like that. Don't like that? Repeal that statute. Or if you suddenly think it violates non-delegation, then much of the regulatory state will also fall with it.
I have no patience for people yelling MQD who do not actually believe in the MQD.
I'll add my voice to like some clarity on the non-delegation doctrine (it was never really enough of a thing to make a 'return."
MQD is stupid, at least as currently implemented it is no more clear than non-delegation and with less Constitutional motivation. But it'd be legal malpractice to not plead it for that reason.
I have no patience for people yelling MQD who do not actually believe in the MQD.
This is what lawyers are paid to do - dispassionately find the best argument based on what the law is, not play at what the law ought to be.
MQD is just another way of saying that delegation has to be explicit to be constitutional. Beyond separation of powers, I realize what I'm about to write will seem obvious, but given that some do not believe Congress's authority to legislate in the Constitution is both limited and delegated, I will: Non-delegation matters because Congress cannot delegate something to agencies that it has no authority to do in the first place. That question often gets lost in the shuffle.
I disagree with your last sentence, because lawyers (in this arena of public policy and constitutional law) often are getting paid to play at what the law ought to be. Which is why they will often advance absurd arguments, just in case they can get away with it. That is the major enterprise of human rights and environmental law advocates. It's why we've recently had some difficulty answering the legal question: what is a woman?
MQD did not form with that contour in mind - it starts with some amorphous 'is this major' and then it seems to be basically fatal to the statute if that is found to be true.
It acts as a blank check for Justices to make policy. I hate it.
Lawyers are paid by some clients to try and change the law, but a lawyer who doesn't use an argument because he doesn't like the legal state of play it relies on is being unethical.
I don't like what the 1970s environmental law movement, but they relied on current law to gum things up. And they acted ethically given their client.
Having your own oughts' be subsumed by the client is one of the reasons I left the biz. The theory is you can pick your clients, but money makes tools of us all.
So is substantive due process. [shrugs]
I agree that MQD is just an analysis/application of whether Congress has made a delegation, which as I said needs to be specific because its powers under the Constitution are limited, and therefore need justification whenever invoked. MQD is a textual exercise, searching relevant statutes for the authorization to do what the agency is claiming authority over. My EPA example again: an environmental agency doesn't have unlimited regulatory power over the environment, merely because it has that word in its name. It can't regulate waterways quality just because the Constitution gives authority over them to the federal government (navigable waters). It does so only because the Clean Water Act grants it certain, particular authority and no more.
"If they want to give the President full discretion, Congress knows how to do that."
Seems that's what they did:
"Whenever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government, OR ANY invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government, and the President makes public proclamation of the event, all natives, citizens, denizens, or subjects of the hostile nation or government, being of the age of fourteen years and upward, who shall be within the United States and not actually naturalized, shall be liable to be apprehended, restrained, secured, and removed as alien enemies. The President is authorized in any such event, by his proclamation thereof, or other public act, to direct the conduct to be observed on the part of the United States, toward the aliens who become so liable;"
You know, I don't see the word 'full discretion' or anything like it. I see lots of words with meanings used, like invasion and incursion.
And a way the President must give notice of what he's doing "in any such event."
Reading words out of a statute is pretty bad practice.
It's an interesting question. Do states typically allow class action habeas cases when several people present similar questions of law?
Does a loss by the class preclude individual review? For example, you typically only get one habeas. If a class already litigated your claim, did they take your one chance?
It also brings up a somewhat philosophical question of whether a formal declaration is required to be considered at war. Surely we were at war in Iraq and in Vietnam even though Congress never declared war.
Is the President powerless to take war-like steps because Congress has not taken an action which has fallen into desuetude? Countries simply don't declare war any more than they issue letters of marque.
The Supreme Court decided that question in the Prize Cases in the Civil War, when it said that a state of war can exist when there are hostilities in the absence of a formally declared war. But when it did so, it made it clear that whether there are actually hostilities going on or not is a question of fact for judges, who do not have to simply take the President’s word for it.
Ludecke said that when there is a formal, Congressionally declared war, courts generally take Congress’ word for it. (Even there it didn’t rule out the possibility of holding otherwise if the declaration is a mere piece of paper with no military action at all associated with it.)
But Ludeke didn’t address what happens when the President acts in the absence of a Congressionally declared war. It remains a matter for adjudication whether a war (or incursion or invasion) within the meaning of the statute exists.
Could Congress even declare a war on an entity like TdA? How about declaring a war on drugs or poverty or homelessness?
If we could declare war against TdA would the fact that the marines are not landing in Caracas be evidence that we weren't seriously waging war?
And I know I sound like a broken record with this line, but are courts really competent to rule on these things?
Um, the key threshold question is whether the AEA even applies to TdA. A class action is entirely appropriate for resolving that. Only if it does apply would Trump's victims require individual hearings as to whether they fall within the defined group.
Isn't the problem that many of the named Plaintiffs claim NOT to be members of TdA. As far as a class action, I don't think it is necessary. Wouldn't the "first man up" where it is decided one way or the other if the AEA applies here act as precedent for the others?
There are too many variables between individuals in the habeas context for a class action to be a reasonable vehicle at least IMHO.
The ACLU has filed a habeas class action today.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25888853-petition-for-habeas78/#document/p1
When judges agree with Ilya, they are right and correct.
When judges disagree with Ilya, they are badly flawed and probably racist too.
When judges agree with Trump they are brilliant jurists.
When they rule against him they are not just incompetent, but traitors who should be impeached and probably imprisoned.
And this is not the reaction of just Trump. It's all the MAGA cultists.
No, no, no! They "show judicial courage."
That's not quite fair to Ilya, I don't recall him calling people racist for disagreeing with him about immigration or his other pet peeves.
He generally sticks to the issues, even if his opinion never varies.
Right, not racist just nativist.
The following passage in italics below appears near the conclusion of Chief Justice Marshall's opinion deciding a habeas corpus case, Ex Parte Bollman and Ex Parte Swartwout, 8 U.S. 75 (1807). That case involved alleged conspirators in the alleged treason of Aaron Burr.
The case in controversy now is not a treason case, but the passage below seems to me to have analogous relevance. It does seem, after all, that the present case, as framed by the Trump administration, is based on assertion of expansive powers during a military emergency.
If I understand its legal implications correctly (which I may not)—Marshall's opinion speaks explicitly against a power to seize people in the United States at one place, and try them in another. Marshall ordered Bollman and Swartwout released.
Here is Marshall:
But in this case, a tribunal for the trial of the offense, wherever it may have been committed, had been provided by Congress, and at the place where the prisoners were seized by the authority of the commander in chief there existed such a tribunal. It would, too, be extremely dangerous to say that because the prisoners were apprehended not by a civil magistrate, but by the military power, there could be given by law a right to try the persons so seized in any place which the general might select and to which he might direct them to be carried.
The act of Congress which the prisoners are supposed to have violated describes as offenders those who begin or set on foot, or provide, or prepare the means for any military expedition or enterprise to be carried on from thence against the dominions of a foreign prince or state with whom the United States is at peace.
There is a want of precision in the description of the offense which might produce some difficulty in deciding what cases would come within it. But several other questions arise which a Court consisting of four judges finds itself unable to decide, and therefore, as the crime with which the prisoners stand charged has not been committed, the Court can only direct them to be discharged.
That description seems to check multiple points of similarity with the present case. And note that Marshall's conclusion is not that the prisoners be returned for trial where they were seized. Marshall orders that they be discharged, based on ambiguities over the question whether any crime had even been committed. That seems an especially notable point of similarity to this case.
Perhaps the lawyers here would like to take yet another crack at debunking my untrained capacity to read legal opinions.
It misses the key one, which is that nobody is trying anyone here. This is about deportation, not prosecution.
Nieporent — Read the decision. It addresses that point too.
Marshall writes at length to create what looked to me like a doctrine linking the habeas corpus power to the power to prosecute crime. I took away a conclusion that wherever a power to prosecute crime exists, it bestows full power to consider a habeas petition. Marshall specifically mentions a legitimate power to do so ex parte as well, on the basis of documentary examination in cases where the prisoner remains detained elsewhere. If I understood that part, it looked to me like another relevant point of similarity.
I am always on the lookout for trained legal advice to help me understand judges' rulings and opinions. I would welcome your help if you care to give it.
It’s not similar, because—and I really cannot see how you’re missing this—that case dealt with people who were being charged with a crime, while this case does not.
Noscitur — Maybe because I am confused by what seemed to me to be an on-point analysis in a decision which I take it you decline to read. Are you concerned you might find something in that decision which would not be welcome to you?
It is not a terribly long decision, although I think it does require close and careful reading—plenty of long sentences and complicated grammatical constructions to stumble over. Maybe I have stumbled over something.
A substantive reply to me would be based on your own independent reading of Ex Parte Bollman and Ex Parte Swartwout, 8 U.S. 75 (1807). You could then reference the parts you think support what you say, and the other parts which you think I have misinterpreted. I assert that in that case Chief Justice Marshall said your distinction between, "charged with a crime," and a petition for habeas corpus is immaterial. I could easily have misinterpreted. Show me wrong.
Why on earth would you think I haven’t read it? The first thing I did before replying to you was to (re)read it, to make sure I was right (I was), because I don’t like being wrong, and really don’t like being obviously wrong.
I’m also not sure what you feel is nonsubstantive about my response, but I’ll try again. I assume you’re not disputing that the case involved people who were being prosecuted for committing a crime. In that situation, there are explicit constitutional provisions that limit where the trial can be held. There are no equivalent provisions that would apply to a case like this one, which is why it’s inapposite.
(I’ll also note that if you want to distinguish yourself from sovereign citizens, plucking quotes from old cases out of context and claiming they prove your novel theory is correct isn’t the best way to do it.)
Noscitur —
I’m also not sure what you feel is nonsubstantive about my response, but I’ll try again. I assume you’re not disputing that the case involved people who were being prosecuted for committing a crime. In that situation, there are explicit constitutional provisions that limit where the trial can be held. There are no equivalent provisions that would apply to a case like this one, which is why it’s inapposite.
Marshall —
It has been demonstrated at the bar that the question brought forward on a habeas corpus is always distinct from that which is involved in the cause itself. The question whether the individual shall be imprisoned is always distinct from the question whether he shall be convicted or acquitted of the charge on which he is to be tried, and therefore these questions are separated, and may be decided in different courts.
Also Marshall (reiterated) —
It would, too, be extremely dangerous to say that because the prisoners were apprehended not by a civil magistrate, but by the military power, there could be given by law a right to try the persons so seized in any place which the general might select and to which he might direct them to be carried.
The Sixth Amendment says nothing about habeas corpus. You apparently assume I mistakenly insist that it does. No, I do not.
I do think you may be trying to construct a less-than-persuasive argument inferred from that silence in the Sixth Amendment. You are looking at text from Marshall to the contrary of your inference. I count that text more persuasive than an inference from silence.
Here, of course, is the entire Constitutional text which specifically references habeas corpus —
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
Note, it does not say or imply that habeas corpus applies only to criminal cases. It says instead, by abundantly clear inference, that habeas corpus may be resorted to in instances which involve various threats to public safety, in times of invasions or rebellions or by further implication, emergencies. Invasions and emergencies, especially, may not even be crimes. Neverthess, says the only text mentioning habeas corpus in the Constitution, the federal government is not at liberty to suspend habeas corpus arbitrarily, but only under prescribed conditions, some of which have to do with invasions and emergencies, not crimes.
Perhaps you can find something substantive to refute those observations. Please try to find more than your own say-so to rely upon. Conflicts of laws, or something.
Finally, your tiresome reiteration of cracks about sovereign citizens do not get more applicable by repeating them. I would not want to put too heavy historical reliance on this, but the Burr cases are probably the most authoritative near-contemporaries of the AEA available. To understand the Burr cases in the context of their creation would be a task worthy of genuinely originalist effort. To deprecate those, and rely exclusively on present-minded analysis of more-recent cases would be historically unwise.
Look man, I can explain it for you, but I can’t understand it for you. I’ll give it one more shot and then I’m going to give up on you.
Bollman and Swartwout were arrested by military authorities in New Orleans and brought to Washington to be tried for treason. The Supreme Court held that the evidence that was used to commit then for trial was insufficient to establish that they had committed treason, and that any crime they did commit was not committed in Washington. The government argued that the trial could still happen in Washington, relying on a statute (the Crimes Act of 1790) which provided that if an offense was committed “out of the jurisdiction of any particular state” it could be tried in “ the district where the offender is apprehended, or into which he may be first brought.” (Note: this provision was passed under Congress’s authority in Article III, section 2 to “by law … direct[]” the “Place or Places” for trial of crimes “not committed within any State”; the Sixth Amendment doesn’t come into it.)
The section you keep quoting from is Marshall’s explanation for why that statutory provision doesn’t apply here. Note that he doesn’t even say that that was result is constituonally required, and in fact modern venue statutes likely would permit a case like this to be tried in Washington. And the case simply doesn’t say anything about the proper venue for someone who isn’t detained due to criminal prosecution to bring a habeas claim.
Maybe not, but they do get more applicable by your continuing to act like a sovereign citizen. Which, I repeat, is exactly what you’re doing.
Noscitur — Tell me then, what is it sovereign citizens do that you think I do also? Cite Chief Justice Marshall? If so, I did not know they were doing that. Got some examples?
You wrote this:
Note that he doesn’t even say that that was result is constituonally required, and in fact modern venue statutes likely would permit a case like this to be tried in Washington.
?
I had said earlier that I thought that habeas was the correct avenue.
I also note that aliens claiming they are not dangerous could petition for discharge under the AEA.
I agree that habeas is the correct avenue here.
Why would a federal judge be competent to decide that an alien was not dangerous?
The government has every right to continue detaining such an alien. What I believe the Court said is that the habeas relief applies to removal, not continued detention.
Why would a federal judge be competent to decide that an alien was not dangerous?
Who would be? Certainly not the executive, which can operate quite whimsically, and follows no process of any sort. A judge can hear evidence, after all, before depriving someone of liberty.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that that sort of thing is required. Maybe I was misinformed.
Wow, now you're just spinning your policy preferences as precedential law. It's like you're ignoring the entire body of immigration law and precedent. You should look up some of us Secretary of State Rubio's declarations about some of the aliens the administration has already deported.
Again, the due process an alien is entitled to is not what you think it is. Even when you use the word "liberty". Notice and hearing isn't what you want it to be.
the due process an alien is entitled to is not what you think it is. Even when you use the word "liberty"
Well, I didn't specify what I think it is.
I do think:
1. There should be some process. Here there seems to have been none. At a minimum the alleged illegal alien should have the right to challenge the determination. Do you think the administration never errs? Or that errors should be dismissed as "oopsies" and remain uncorrected?
2. There is a big difference between sending someone back where they came from and sending them to prison in a different country. That ought to require a bit more justification than just deportation, don't you think?
3. I don't understand your objection to my use of "liberty." The Constitutional guarantee is explicit:
nor [shall any person] be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; (emphasis added).
Being imprisoned looks like a deprivation of liberty to me.
As for Rubio, he's not as big a liar as Trump, but he is a part of an Administration built on lies, and stuffed with liars, so I'm not that inclined to simply take his word.
Thanks for confirming you are uninterested in the particulars of immigration law, treating the detention of aliens as if criminal law applies.
The unfortunate thing for you regarding executive declarations under statutory foreign and immigration law is that the judiciary is not competent to question or inquire about the truthiness of such declarations. Sorry.
In some of the cases, all the statute requires is Rubio to declare that an alien's continued presence in the United States is against the our national interest. Whether he is lying or not is irrelevant, because that is a subjective judgment of the executive, authorized by law, not authorized subject to judicial veracity checks.
Unlike such declarations, the presidential proclamation under the AEA may be subject to judicial review, because that involves question of law and interpretation, whether the president's determination is "reasonable" in light of what the law authorizes him to do.
This will end class action cases (habeas, by definition are individual actions), and unappealable TROs.
Why can’t a judge in a habeas action issue a TRO preventing the petitioner’s deportation or transfer while the case proceeds?
"unappealable" TROs.
I mean, a TRO only lasts 2 weeks; that's one reason.
I told ilya that he was going to lose another one riding the blowsburg horse.
NO ONE VOTED FOR "JUDGE" BLOWSBURG!
No-one voted for the Constitution, yet here we are.
State conventions ratified the Constitution. Nothing assures that the approvals of the various states were based on a common understanding of the various provisions. It is a near certainty, for instance, that when the Bill of Rights was ratified, Virginia and Pennsylvania did so on the basis of divergent interpretations of the 2A. History discloses that by conflicts in the meanings of their state Constitutions with regard to use of arms for self-defense.
You are even beginning to sound like your hero Boasberg 🙂 Ilya, the Supreme Supreme Court.
Sorry, my daily contacts are completely with the ruling
Nation:
▸ noun: (collective) A historically constituted, stable community of people, formed based on a common language, territory, economic life, ethnicity and/or psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.
That seems to fit TdA pretty well.
Bullshit. Everyone knows that TdA is not a nation nor a country. The disagreement is over whether you give a shit.
No, the disagreement is over whether TdA was sent here BY the Venezuelan government, and whether they are actually "invading or perpetrating or attempting a predatory incursion, or threatening the territory of the United States."
You can say they're not, but that would be entirely subjective. I think ALL criminal gangs are threatening to the territory of the United States. That is also subjective.
The above is the actual text of the law; I just changed the verb moods.
You keep saying 'they' so you admit that they are a political group.
Sent here has no meaning, Venezuela is very unstable.
They kill, they are a group and their illegal acts are all illegal under the USA, so you have no point.
Except that is not the claim. The claim is that TdA has been sent here by the Venezuelan government to cause chaos in the USA and may have even received training by the Venezuelan military. It is a form of asymmetrical warfare and if it can be proven moves TdA from simply a gang to government actors.
To state the claim is to laugh at it.
Why? Such warfare is nothing new. In fact during the Mariel Boatlift it is known that Castro released a large number of criminals from his prisons to join the boatlift so as to cause problems in the USA. Florida paid the price for years because of Cuban gangs. The only difference might be if the Venezuelan government offered training to the TdA members.
May have happened...it's plausible!
You know that's so weak as to be a false claim.
Yeah, that's not at all true about Mariel, as any longtime reader of Reason would know. A small percentage of the refugees had been released from prison, and most of those were political prisoners, not real criminals. Out of roughly 125,000 refugees, best estimates were that under 1,000 were real criminals.
But the real point isn't whether Castro saw an opportunity to get rid of some criminals; the point is that Castro was not doing this to "cause problems in the USA." (Actually, the point is that Maduro isn't doing this to cause problems in the USA. It's just absurd. (What would even be the point? To pave the way for the Venezuelan army? Only someone who thought Red Dawn was a documentary could possibly believe that.))
1000 real criminals and you expect us to think you rational.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0144818822000503
Our analyses indicate Marielitos’ arrival led to a temporary surge in violent crime and a long-term increase in property crime relative to similar MSAs. Murder rates, however, remain significant as other violent crime effects disappear; our preferred estimates indicate murders per 100,000 comparatively rose by 41.2% in the seven years after the arrival of the flotilla. While less persuasive, we observe a relative increase in aggregate violent crime rates of 43%–53% on average following April 1980, though this effect dissipates after five quarters. Our property crime and robbery estimates are more sustained; we find that these comparative measures grew nearly 25%–32% and 70%, respectively, and persist until 1990.
Whatever the dubious merits of that claim, it’s clearly not the one Abdul Abdulbul Amir was making.
“The claim is that TdA has been sent here by the Venezuelan government to cause chaos in the USA and may have even received training by the Venezuelan military”
Wow this sounds really scary and bad, if true!
Luckily we had Tulsi Gabbard, John Ratcliffe and Pete Hegseth testifying in front of Congress just last week. While you might have thought they were there to answer questions about their use of Signal to discuss sensitive national security information— NOT SO! They were actually there to present something called the Annual Threat Assessment, a yearly obligation to Congress. Here is a link:
https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/ATA-2025-Unclassified-Report.pdf
Can you please point out the section where they discuss this Venezuelan-government-backed attempt to destabilize US society such that use of the AEA would be appropriate?
For your convenience I will point out that the section on “nonstate transnational criminals and terrorists” appears on page 5.
Right from the presidential proclamation. The first paragraph in fact
Tren de Aragua (TdA) is a designated Foreign Terrorist Organization with thousands of members, many of whom have unlawfully infiltrated the United States and are conducting irregular warfare and undertaking hostile actions against the United States. TdA operates in conjunction with Cártel de los Soles, the Nicolas Maduro regime-sponsored, narco-terrorism enterprise based in Venezuela, and commits brutal crimes, including murders, kidnappings, extortions, and human, drug, and weapons trafficking. TdA has engaged in and continues to engage in mass illegal migration to the United States to further its objectives of harming United States citizens, undermining public safety, and supporting the Maduro regime’s goal of destabilizing democratic nations in the Americas, including the United States.
So, it doesn’t appear in the Annual Threat Assessment— is that right?
Why do you think that might be? This report, prepared by top Trump admin officials, states that it incorporates information available as of March 18.
You also realize— I’m sure— that Don doesn’t think he signed what you’ve quoted— or at least that’s what he stated publicly.
Is it just possible that this is an attempt to retcon?
As I said that is right from the presidential proclamation.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/03/invocation-of-the-alien-enemies-act-regarding-the-invasion-of-the-united-states-by-tren-de-aragua/
Not responsive really.
Why do you think the allegations contained in the dead-of-night AEA proclamation on March 15th (what else happened that day?) about a serious national security issue would not be included in an annual threat assessment incorporating information available through March 18th? It’s serious enough to invoke the AEA (only done for 3 conflicts in our history, none of which— even you must admit, closely resemble the current situation) but also simultaneously not important enough to included in the ATA mandated for Congress. An ATA, by the way, that specifically discusses COLUMBIAN and MEXICAN drug cartels?
In the words of Judge Judy, if it doesn’t make sense it’s probably not true.
Add in Don’s denial— four days later— that he even saw this order and I think it paints a pretty tidy picture.
Steven Miller orders deportation. He hears from DOJ (because they’re the ones who have to risk their careers in court defending this) that their asses are exposed. So Miller or a direct report subordinate cooks up this little piece of fan-fiction, to retcon the decision, forgetting that DNI already has prepared the yearly ATA. Autopens Trump’s signature onto it, has DOJ submit it to the court. Voila!
The left and their conspiracy theories.
The word Venezuela does not appear anywhere in the ATA, despite the existence of a section explicitly mentioning Central and South American drug cartels. Why? That is a fact, not a conspiracy. Let me guess, you’d rather handwave!
Nation and country are two different things.
I am aware of that. TdA is neither. But as IK noted, even if it were, the immediate deportation is contrary to the AEA
It sounds like the small town I grew up in but my little town was not a "nation."
I'm not sure why this straw man was erected.
If the federal government then dropped into your small town a bunch of poor Haitian or Mexican nationals in the middle of the night, I'm quite sure that would change the stability of your town, and there would be some severely pissed off people.
Tell me: is the above fair or moral?
Yes.
Then they can move in with you.
I mean, I'd rather have them than you. But maybe your problem is your failure to understand the concept of private property.
You mean when their pets started disappearing?
I mean that's a vastly overbroad def as folks below are saying.
But beyond that..."psychological make-up?"
Amir - Tda doesnt fit under "nation"
Possibly under government since the term is not defined, nor is government limited to a recognized foreign nation. Tda is a large enough organization that it can meet the definition or being funded by a government. bottom line, whether Tda falls under the term government is subject to legitimate debate. Its not an open and shut case.
If you are having to use 21stC concepts and arguments to defend calling TdA a government, you have automatically lost the argument,
What didn't get mentioned is that immediate deportation is a violation of the AEA. Even if TdA is a nation and what they did is an invasion and no hearing is required, you still can't deport immediately. That's in the act itself.
It didn't get mentioned because the Court did not decide that immediate deportation was a violation of the AEA. The Court did not rule on that specifically, because it found the district court lacked jurisdiction. Sure, they expressed some general sentiment about due process. But since they did not get into the specifics of the AEA, that is a question for another day. It could still turn out that the circumstances of the law authorizing deportation of an enemy alien might qualify that general principle.
People keep presuming this due process means what is required in a criminal proceeding, that the government has the burden of proof. I prefer to view it as last line of defense ensuring a citizen is not accidentally deported. Not an opportunity to question the government's justification for removing an alien, though that may be valid in certain situations. The due process is for the protections of citizens, not aliens.
The AEA is its own statute with its own legislative history. Because it was passed in the 18th century, when Congress was more hospitable to aliens then it is today, the statute in some respects gives alien enemies more rights than some other classes of aliens.
It absolutely permits an alleged enemy alien to challenge whether or not there is a war going on justifying the President’s proclamation. Ludecke did exactly that after the shooting stopped in WWII. And the Supreme Court heard hs case. It decided against him, holding that because Congress had declared war, there was no peace treaty, and there were still US troops in Europe, a war was in fact still going on. Today’s habeas petitioners are fully entitled to claim thar today’s circumstances are different from those of Ludecke and there is not in fact any war going on.
It also allows enemy aliens who are not dangerous a reasonable amount of time to settle their affairs and leave voluntarily. So if some of the detainees can convince a judge that the government’s claim they are dangerous is mistaken, they can ask for immediate release.
If the AEA "absolutely permits...an alleged enemy alien to challenge whether or not there is a war going on", why didn't the Supreme Court let that part of the case continue in the DC district court?
Answer: because the AEA does not absolutely permit that.
Note what I'm not saying--that an alien can't ever raise that issue. Maybe he can, but not as a stand-alone cause of action. Because the AEA statute has no adjudication mechanism, as it presumes a war context where the president cannot be second guessed. As Civil War cases demonstrated, often such challenges are raised by seeking a habeas writ. (Although those cases are a bit different, involving citizens not aliens.)
I'm curious to see what happens in Texas and Louisiana with AEA detainees, when the district court is not playing games to retain jurisdiction. Including what notice is given by the government, and how another district court views that.
I'm warming to the argument mentioned in the other thread that once the Court found that the district court was without jurisdiction, all it can do is dismiss the case. All the rest about notice is obiter dicta.
The most important aspect of this ruling was the Supreme Court correctly identifying that the district court did not have jurisdiction, because this was a habeas petition and the detainee was not in its district. Despite the district court judge's attempt to bootstrap other issues alongside, yet inexplicably was also coaching the plaintiffs to consider dismissing the habeas cause of action, because of its limitations.
People trumpeting the right to a hearing (like Somin) are somewhat ignoring the jurisdiction part that inevitably goes along with it. You don't have Anthony Kennedy around anymore to turn that habeas fig leaf into the full blown delay tactic. As I understand the Court's "dicta", the habeas notice and hearing is about removal, not detention.
Habeas does seem like an odd remedy in this situation. If you are challenging your deportation can't you challenge it later with the remedy that you are allowed back in the country?
I guess I am confused with why these people are going to a prison in El Salvador. Isn't deportation just taking you back where you came from and letting you loose there? Are they charged with crimes? What is the basis for their continued detention after deportation to El Salvador?
It's only an odd remedy because it's the only remedy, existing outside of any statutory law, which for immigration is severely limited. Like I wrote above, it's not about an alien's rights, it's for the protection of any citizens wrongly identified. It's not about challenging the circumstances of the government seeking deportation (like the pro-immigrant advocates want it) but only that the person being deported is who the government claims they are.
None of that speaks to the particulars of the deportations to El Salvador here.
Boasberg is likely still going to try to hold Trump officials in contempt. Isn't he so precious? This is not going to end well for this arrogant judge. Nor is the order to bring back an El Salvadoran who is in El Salvador.
Speaking not as a lawyer but as just a regular schmoe, I would still like to see this District judge removed from office by Congress. It is quite obvious that this judge is not able to rule without injecting his personal politics and prejudices.
I take this order from the Supreme Court as a rebuke: the case should never have been accepted in that venue.
It is quite obvious that this judge is not able to rule without injecting his personal politics and prejudices.
Unlike all other judges ever. You think Fat Tony Scalia didn't inject his persona politics and prejudices when he dissented in Lawrence v Texas? You think Gorsuch didn't, when absurdly ruling in favour of Kennedy in the HS coach prayer case?
It's only when you don't like the result, not the general cocurrence. I will bet that when Trump nominates judges, you want him to appoint judges who inject their personal politics and prejudices when you agree with those politics and prejudices.
You obviously don't know me very well if at all.
Indeed not. I can only deduce from what you post, and the deduction from waht you post, up to and including your most recent response, support my prior conclusion.
If you accuse someone of stealing your wallet and they respond, "you have no evidence I stole your wallet" - did they or didn't they?
So migrants get due process, but when the Government refuses to play by those rules and deports them anyway, there's no remedy?
Let's hope that all those cowardly law firms that kneeled before Zod and pledged tens of millions in pro bono work will devote that pro bono work to defending these prisoners in Texas. How great- would that be!
I thought the agreement for tens of millions in pro bono work was for aims to 'support the administration's priorities.' Vague. Regardless, helping dirty evil brown designated foreign terrorists fight their removal to warm climate gulag wouldn't fit even that vague criteria.
You're welcome to offer your services to help the illegal alien gangbangers, fink.
In today's news, Commenter_XY was arrested for something he definitely did not do. Said one prospective jury member, "People don't get arrested unless they're guilty, so I hope he goes to prison for a long time." No lawyer has yet to offer Mr. XY their services. Coming up after the break: cat videos!
Gonna share with the class why you included the word "definitely" in your snarkanalogy?
Sure. Because my snarkanalogy (I'm keeping that) about Commenter_XY was directed to Commenter_XY, who would presumably know quite definitely whether he did the thing he was accused of.
My point, in case you missed it, isn't about the certainty of the proof. My point is to remind everyone that one cannot pooh pooh legal protections for "illegal alien gangbangers" without first assuming they are, in fact, illegal alien gangbangers. But that's what the public tends to do any time someone is arrested-- even when they're innocent. That's the point of legal representation for all.
Which is honestly just grade school American civics.
Thanks for clarifying -- the original definitely came across more like those thought to be "illegal alien gangbangers" are not so fo sho.
those thought to be "illegal alien gangbangers" are not so fo sho.
That is what 'thought to be' means - not for sure.
Why do leftists think the fate and conditions of every person on earth is America's responsibility? nearly all of these people would be better off in America, the problem is that we'd be way worse off.
Why did the righties give up on due process and procedural protections? That used to be the thing that made America exceptional in a world of kangaroo courts.
Because Trump Is Never Wrong.
They have two rules:
1. Trump is right.
2. If you think Trump is wrong, see Rule 1.
So, essentially, because Joe Biden allowed so many illegals in, they get enhanced rights. We couldn't possibly require them all to file habeas petitions because there are too many of them and that would clog the system. Better to give them some other more streamlined avenue for review (which would just by happenstance tend to be more favorable to them). Somin is a joke.
There is a disconnect between the scope of the illegal immigration problem and the judicial response to the administration's attempts to fix it. The Biden Administration threw the gates open and millions of illegal immigrants flooded into this country. Now SCOTUS says that every one of them is entitled to a habeas hearing before they are deported. This is basically an admission that there is going to be no practical way to unwind this problem, even if the single question in the habeas hearing is whether the immigrant is a citizen or holder of a green card. It would take years upon years for the courts to work through these cases one by one. The only other solution that comes to mind is for Congress to strip the courts of jurisdiction over deportation proceedings, but that will never get through this Congress.
This case had nothing whatsoever to do with illegal aliens.
To be clear, I am not saying that none of the people involved are illegal. I am saying that the case isn't about the legality of their status here, and Trump's EO expressly applies to people here legally. (Note that if they are illegal, the AEA isn't even needed to deport them.)
But O Tempora is correct about the scale of the issue, regardless. The number of people in the country illegally, even if you ignore the people who have been given pseudo-legal status, is in the millions. Even for administrative hearings there just aren't the resources to process them.
This is, of course, deliberate: Congress, for a mix of reasons, has long wanted to tolerate high levels of illegal immigration, even as members couldn't come out and say so. They settled on just grossly underfunding the whole border enforcement system.
But the solution lies with Congress, too: Manning up and properly funding it. Not just willy nilly dispensing with due process.
I don't think the court expanded anything; anybody on us soil is entitled to due process. All it is saying is that any challenge to the AEA designation and removal the exclusive remedy to challenge that is in habeas and venue/jurisdiction is exclusively in the place of confinement.
Which, if the Court had been more frank, would know that the US Govt, not desiring these people to file habeas petitions, didn't make the rule something like 'habeas jurisdiction lies in the jurisdiction of seizure.' The govt takes someone into custody in place A, moves them to location B, then moves them to C before sending them to El Salvador. The family or a lawyer if one is hired, only knows location A and this is deliberate. By the time they file in A, the person is already in B or C. Oooops.... sorry. That is not the place of confinement. Go file in C. So when they go to file in C they are already in El Salvador. Ooops. Now you can't file.
These fucking shell games are notorious and well known. The actions deliberate. The petitioner's are not entitled to an attorney for a habeas claim. Their family, who doesn't know where they are, is supposed to get one for them. Obviously the easiest place to do all this is where they live in location A. But its better for the govt if it happens in BFE location C 1500miles away from location A or not at all. The majority of the people will be 'not at all.' So it shall go.
Yes. That's the law. [shrugs]
(You want judges to change/ignore the law, because you think it's unfair. Alas, not every injustice has a judicial remedy.)
No, I would like the Court to acknowledge that due process rights are ineffectual when the gov't is determined to deny those rights.
I've made the point elsewhere; the court says they are entitled to due process which means at bare minimum notice of what is happening and a meaningful opportunity to challenge what is happening. What is 'meaningful?' Is 3days enough time for a detainee's family for someone snatched in Boston to hire a lawyer in tumbleweed Arizona? Louisiana? What if the detainee is NOT given access to phone calls and ICE doesn't update their detainee portal to reflect where the detainee actually is?
The court can say "the only plausible place of venue is on the moon" and each detainee has the right to ask Elon Musk for a free ride. Is that meaningful opportunity to be heard that would satisfy any notion of making a right to due process meaningful or effective? Why the fuck is anyone taking the government's word here? They have sole control of where and how often a detainee is moved. They have sole control of whether that person gets a phone call. They have control over when and in what format the notice is given. Do they give Spanish only speakers the notice in English? Do they provide a translation? Do they send it certified mail to the detainee's last known address knowing they are going to be 1200miles away when it arrives? Would any of the above, if it happened in a case under this DOJ, surprise anybody? F these snakes. They don't operate in good faith and they don't want these detainees to actually utilize habeas corpus so they will see to it as few as possible do. You can bet on that.
The process due an alien is not what you think it is. Not what you would like it to be. This is not a criminal proceeding.
There's a very good reason for this: to avoid what is happening now, an Article III hearing for every case. I agree that the administration have invited this here.
The constitutional interest for notice and a hearing serves a privileges and immunities purpose: not deporting a citizen accidentally. Gives someone swept up in a drag net an opportunity to dispute they are an alien.
Of course!
But O Tempora is correct about the scale of the issue, regardless.
Example number 5,278,091 of someone saying, "My side might be wrong on the law and the facts, but we have the right intent, and that is what matters..."
This is, of course, deliberate: Congress, for a mix of reasons, has long wanted to tolerate high levels of illegal immigration, even as members couldn't come out and say so.
And why do you think that is? Could it have something to do with how some industries rely on cheap labor from the undocumented and that American consumers like the lower prices that come from that even as some of them complain about it taking "their" jobs?
According to Pew Research, the number of unauthorized immigrants (synonymous with undocumented or illegal immigrants, terms that reflect political preferences) climbed dramatically during both Clinton's and Bush's time in office. This was an increase that only slowed to a relatively steady value with the Great Recession. My guess is that it had been as low as it was in the early 90s, when Pew started studying this and/or had the data to estimate the numbers, because of the 1985 Immigration and Reform Act (aka "amnesty").
The truth is that humans have always migrated to where they can live better lives than where they were. And they always will. Managing that migration is essential for any sovereign nation, but trying to stop it is like trying to stop the wind.
But the solution lies with Congress, too: Manning up and properly funding it.
Right. If only members of Congress had tried to do that last year. And if only they had gotten support for such a plan from the people that claimed the loudest to want to fix the problem.
Indeed, if only they hadn't done something else last year, instead.
Aww man, you're just inviting whining that the bipartisan Senate border security bill didn't pass.
(A compromise on regularizing unauthorized aliens had been available for years, in exchange for proven effective border security first. Oh well.)
I've remarked on this before: Such compromise deals depend on the parties to the deal actually expecting the terms to be followed. Once you know they won't, there's no point in engaging in trades of that sort.
We HAVE the tools for effective border security, the essentially step change in illegal border crossings between Trump, then Biden, then Trump again, demonstrates that high levels of illegal immigration are a policy choice, not a product of inability to secure the border.
What we need are the resources to deport all the illegal aliens who accumulated as a result of that policy of not enforcing immigration laws. Legalizing their presence instead is the exact opposite of that.
I still say that habeas is an odd vehicle. If a person is no longer in US custody and deported, isn't a habeas moot? SCOTUS seems to say that the government cannot release you into a foreign county and thereby grant your habeas relief by discontinuing your confinement without you having an opportunity to object to the self-granting of habeas relief.*
*Again, the El Salvador question notwithstanding, but that doesn't concern a US court.
Maybe the disconnect here is that the persons seeking habeas relief are still in US custody and not yet deported. That's exactly what the lawsuit is about. Not sure why you are future tensing it.
The detainees are still in Texas or Louisiana, have not yet been deported, because of the TRO/injunction of the DC district court.
Um, a bunch are already in El Salvador. Did you miss the defiance of the so-called "turn the planes around" order?
I did know that. Too bad. For the same reason they did not turn the planes around, no court has jurisdiction any longer, and in retrospect the DC court had already lost jurisdiction.
Case isn't moot because some are still here, which is who I assume we've been discussing. I can believe some lawyers are continuing to argue jurisdiction about those already deported. Doesn't mean anything. I distinguish this from the case of the person deported who had a valid order against being sent to El Salvador, where the government may be trying to get him back.
The loophole you're advocating for is so large it would allow rendition of American citizens without any judicial oversight or intervention.
What loophole? I agree with SCOTUS that notice and hearing opportunity is required, to avoid just that.
This all hinges on how much one thinks government is incompetent or malicious. Maybe I'm being too generous, but I don't think the government wants to be deporting citizens by accident. If someone wrongly detained claims they are, it should not be too difficult to verify. Claiming that before a federal judge (even without counsel) in a habeas proceeding should be generously indulged by any court.
I know, I know, I guess the only thing what would satisfy advocates here is a Miranda regime with a right to counsel, from your loophole fear mongering. I'm realizing now that's what the pro-immigration side thinks is necessary due process. Not gonna happen.
I think the AEA-TdA case and their deportation to El Salvador was just a clear signal to illegal aliens, especially those with criminal histories, is the best thing you can possibly do is self deport.
The consequences of sticking around and getting caught may be a lot more than just a ticket home.
I hope they take the hint.
Again: the AEA-TdA case isn't about illegal aliens.
"To be clear, I am not saying that none of the people involved are illegal. I am saying that the case isn't about the legality of their status here, and Trump's EO expressly applies to people here legally. (Note that if they are illegal, the AEA isn't even needed to deport them.)"
?
Real question:
Putting aside the claims of individual habeas petitioners (that, e.g., they aren’t members of Tren de Aragua), who thinks the government will succeed in convincing 2 of 3 Fifth Circuit judges or 5 of 9 Supreme Court Justices to vote to the effect that Tren de Aragua is a “foreign nation or government” for purposes of 50 USC §21?
But that isn't the government's argument, I believe. Their argument is that TdA is an arm of Venezuela's government, and thus an agent of that nation.
It is the government's argument.
The government, of course, points to a connection between TdA and the Venezuelan government. But it doesn't argue that that connection means that Venezuela (of the Venezuelan government) has invaded the United States. That assertion would be problematic.
Rather, the government explicitly argues that the connection means that TdA is, for purposes of Section 21, a "foreign nation or government."
All the rest about notice is obiter dicta.
If we grant that, lower court opinions still have to follow it, as was reaffirmed in a recent SCOTUS opinion.
Was it clear? How much notice is enough notice?
It is enough time for an illiterate prisoner to get help in drafting a bare bones pro se habeas, putting it in the mail, allowing transit time, and allowing the court clerk enough time to process and the judge to consider it.
or
Is it enough time for the ACLU lawyers to file pre-emptive suits (in which case no notice is enough notice)?
Is this reply misplaced? If not, it seems to be talking about something else than my comment.
“I am not expert on these kinds of venue issues, and therefore cannot say much about them.”
I suppose Venue is a particularly murky area? But you are a Law Professor! If you can’t say much, what does that suggest about the Justices on the Supreme Court? That the job is impossible? They are obliged to “say something”, is that the difference?
From the always valuable Emptywheel, a distillation of Prof. Somin's message, for the TL;DR crowd:
Actually Boasberg engaged in a gimmick to claim jurisdiction in the first place, and they called out the gimmick.
That's illustrated by the fact the petitioners lawyers filed habeas petitions in he first place, and Boasberg vounseled them to drop the habeas petitions and go with his hastily constructed APA class action.
The petitioners already knew habeas was the appropriate remedy without SCOTUS having to tell them.
Yes. I think petitioners were hoping to carve out new precedent, that a domestic shuffle of physical custody would not require a change of venue for their primarily habeas pleadings. That the first court they filed in could retain jurisdiction. Maybe that works with other law, but not when your primary vehicle is a habeas petition. As you say, the judge apparently recognized the difficulty early on. This is the magic pixie dust of having an originalist sword of Damocles high court waiting in the wings. Korematsu aside, I bet the judge would not have been worried about habeas limitations if he had a new Warren Court at the top of the food chain. As the dissent documents.
Once again: they filed both claims. Have you read the original complaint? Perhaps you're not aware, but any good lawyer will seek relief in the alternative.
I've read many of these district court complaints (thanks to the Just Security website legal tracker) and of course lawyers are going to throw the kitchen sink in every one. Not being sure which will stick.
One need not be a legal supergenius to recognize that a habeas petition almost certainly is applicable here. The rest is just attempts at clever lawyering, hoping for a sympathetic judge. One of the most basic reasons to draw that conclusion is what most fair observers have pointed out: you can't make an APA claim if you have any other recourse. Habeas was certainly available, just not in the district they preferred to file. They were hoping to dodge that with the fog of legal reasons--which the SCOTUS dissent was willing to entertain.
I'd be far more bothered by all this if the detainees didn't have another venue to pursue their case in. But they do, individually. This has been all about keeping the case in DC (and making it a class action to obtain a broad injunction). Everybody keeps pretending that losing this means they get deported. No, not yet. Go file in Louisiana.
5-4 so in some respects I'll bet you disagree with all 9 of them!!!!
Anyway, a close call like that vitiates any claims by you of something being 'obviously' this or 'obvious" that.
You are boring your audience
I rarely agree with Somin and I think he's a hack, and he's probably wrong on this AEA issue for all I know.
But a decision of the Court, 5-4 or otherwise, does not by itself prove anything. The Court can be 9-0 and be dead wrong. I get that it's a fine heuristic for most people though to assume that court decisions are probably correct.
The battle will definitely continue on because it looks like Democrat Activist Judge Biasburg has decided to pretty much ignore SCOTUS. He's coup against SCOTUS and Sacred Democracy is buttressed by diabetic retard Sotomeyer pretty much copying and pasting the ACLU's arguments in her dissent.
I wonder why Biasburg's creative legal theories aren't being criminalized like Eastman's were?
Should the DOJ illegally spy on Biasburg's communications with the ACLU like Biasburg let the DOJ do to American citizens hundreds of thousands of times?
The way the SCOTUS majority went about this seems misguided to me (not to mention legally questionable). The biggest issue in this case for me is the pretextual way that the AEA is being used. Because if we were actually at war right now with a foreign country that was invading our country with uniformed troops (like what is happening to Ukraine), would SCOTUS really say that each foreign soldier would be entitled to an administrative removal hearing with due process? Hell no, they wouldn't.
I also remain mystified by the insistence of many commentators here to pretend that this is not so obviously what it is: retconning.
Why the facade? You are in favor of Trump having the power to deport these people regardless of status or technical applicability of the AEA. What is the point of all this pretense? Is it helpful to your own psyche? Is it the belated realization that “A country that has pushed one group out of its political community will eventually push out others.”?
I understand why DOJ lawyers have to do it in court— but why here?
So - what's a "predatory incursion," and what's the scope of judicial review for the President's determinations about predatory incursions under the Alien Enemies Act?
Say a British tourist on a normal visa falls afoul of whatever initiative is in the news that day. Taken in for jaywalking (and yes, custodial arrest is generally constitutional for any violation of the law, there's not really a reasonability requirement), and then put on a plane to a prison in Afghanistan named "Male Captus, Bene Detentus."
You're then forcing a foreign citizen to fight in the brief window before transfer against imprisonment for an unspecified time by challenging the transfer under habeas using the reduced set of protections available to noncitizens. Assume the third state in which they are imprisoned would not offer effective redress. Can constitutional Habeas reach treaty-based refoulment prohibitions? What is the quantum of evidence required to establish that the third country might not have a robust judicial system?
Additionally, if Habeas doesn't run too far in Texas these days, given the heat, any foreigner in the country would ultimately have to look to their own country, or some international forum for redress--but having been transferred, those proceedings would likely be against the state running the black hole (a place they never willingly risked the local legal regime), and not the state that pushed them into it.
The tourist, then has two imperfect challenges -- foreign (American) habeas and some sort of challenge at the destination. But if this sort of world comes to pass, countries with far fewer protections at the first step are going to start doing this, and ultimately, the only safe way to travel will be based on the threat of force of your own nation, as opposed to a polite note note from the secretary of state asking the foreign state to render any necessary aid and comfort. If someone bends the herbage on your lawn, that doesn't mean that you can lock them in your neighbor's basement.
Mr. D.