The Volokh Conspiracy
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Universities Should Challenge Trump's Speech-Based Deportations of Students in Court [Updated]
A lawsuit brought by universities could potentially be much more effective than leaving individual students to fend for themselves.

The Trump administration has been detaining and trying to deport immigrant and foreign students for their First-Amendment protected speech. That includes even speech that does not actually support terrorism, as in the case of a Tufts graduate student detained for an anti-Israel op ed that, however flawed, does not endorse Hamas terrorism, or indeed even mention it. Such detention and deportation is an assault on freedom of speech, and violates the First Amendment, which has no exception for immigration restrictions.
In a recent public letter, the faculty of Tufts' Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy propose universities take action to stop this travesty:
Resolved: That the undersigned Executive Faculty of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy urge and would support Tufts University commencing legal action, without delay and in concert with other universities if possible, to enjoin the government and its agents from arresting, detaining, or deporting university students, staff, or faculty based upon their engagement in constitutionally protected expression.
The signatories below constitute a majority of the Executive Faculty.
This is a good idea, and schools should pursue it. I am just a rank-and-file academic and do not speak for my university. But I will do what I can to persuade relevant authorities to act on the Tufts Fletcher School faculty's suggestion. I urge other academics and university officials to do the same.
Up till now, students and university employees targeted for deportation based on their speech have been largely left to fend for themselves, trying to challenge the deportations after they have already been detained. A lawsuit brought by a coalition of universities would have important advantages over this case-by-case approach.
Most obviously, the universities could file a class action lawsuit or seek a nationwide injunction. This could block such detentions and deportations throughout the country in one fell swoop. By contrast, under the status quo, individual students and employees targeted for deportation for their speech often have to spend weeks or months in cruel detention. Even if they ultimately prevail in court, they will have undergone considerable suffering, and potentially significant losses to their education and career prospects. Moreover, freeing one such detainee won't necessarily protect others. Thus, the "chilling effect" on other students' and employees' speech could continue.
A class-action lawsuit or nationwide injunction could solve these problems. If successful, it could preemptively block speech-based detention and deportation of university students and employees throughout the country. This would save targeted immigrant and foreign students from enduring weeks in detention, and lift the cloud of fear that has descended on campuses.
Moreover, universities have far greater resources to conduct litigation than individual students and employees do. They could much more easily employ topnotch legal talent, and expend the resources needed to prevail.
The case for a nationwide injunction here is similar to that which led to the grant of multiple nationwide injunctions against Trump's birthright citizenship executive order. In both situations, the unconstitutional policy in question is categorical and nationwide in scope, and affects large numbers of people, many of whom cannot easily protect themselves.
I would add that the First Amendment context provides additional support for systematic nationwide relief. Courts have long recognized that the Free Speech Clause protects against "chilling effects" on speech, as well as direct speech restrictions. The Trump administration's deportation policies are an obvious example of this problem. The standards of what counts as speech supporting "terrorism" or having "potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States" are incredibly vague. So much so that the late Judge Maryanne Trump Barry (Donald Trump's sister) ruled in 1996 that the law authorizing deportation for the latter type of speech was unconstitutional because of its extreme vagueness.
Allowing deportation based on these types of vague standards could easily chill speech on a wide range of issues involving armed conflict, international relations, US foreign policy, and much more. And it isn't just immigrant and foreign students' speech that would be affected. Other students and faculty maybe be chilled in discussing these subjects on campus, for fear of exposing international students or non-citizen immigrants to danger, if the latter participate in the relevant discussions.
For example, in my constitutional law classes, I teach segments on the use of racial profiling in the War on Terror, executive war powers, immigration, and other issues related to foreign and security policy. If a non-citizen student participates in class discussion or writes a paper on one of these topics, there is a chance they might say something the administration defines as supporting terrorism or having "adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States," and thereby be targeted for deportation. To completely forestall that danger, instructors must either avoid such topics altogether, or forego discussing them with non-citizen students. Similar points apply to scholars researching and writing on such issues in collaboration with non-citizen students or faculty.
These kinds of chilling effects are an obvious threat to free speech on campus, and the academic enterprise of teaching and research. Universities owe it to their students and faculty to protect them against this menace.
If commitment to principle isn't enough to motivate schools to fight, perhaps financial self-interest might do so. International students are an important source of revenue for many schools. The risk of deportation for speech may well deter many from coming, thereby hurting universities' bottom line.
Success in a lawsuit like the one I advocate isn't guaranteed. While the Supreme Court ruled in a 1945 case that "Freedom of speech and of press is accorded aliens residing in this country," later decisions have upheld some speech-based deportations and entry restrictions. However, none of these have endorsed the idea that immigrants or students can be excluded or deported based solely on speech otherwise protected by the First Amendment. For example, in the 1952 Harisiades decision, the Supreme Court only upheld deportation of Communist Party members on the ground that - under then-current precedent - membership in the Party wasn't protected by the First Amendment at all, even for US citizens.
Today's Supreme Court is often hostile to immigrants' rights, but it also provides strong protection for freedom of speech. The latter tendency might well prevail over the former, especially when the speech restrictions in question are as vague and sweeping as those the Trump Administration seeks to implement.
In any event, the courts are going to address Trump's speech-based deportations one way or another, since students targeted for deportation are raising First Amendment defenses. A lawsuit brought by universities maximizes both the odds of success, and the potential payoff from prevailing.
I will not, in this post, try to address all the various procedural issues that might come up in such a lawsuit. But I will note one: Universities should be able to get standing to sue on the grounds that deportation of students and employees affect their economic interests. In addition, they also have a chilling effect on the free speech rights of other university students and employees, and ultimately those of universities as institutions.
I would add that state governments might be able to get standing to sue on behalf of their state university systems. Blue state attorneys general should consider that possibility.
As I have previously noted, I have little sympathy for recent anti-Israel campus protests, and for the views of many of the students now targeted for deportation (many of those views are awful in various ways). I also think students and others who engaged in violence, intimidation, or property damage during protests should be punished.
But a principled commitment to free speech requires protecting even those viewpoints we believe to be badly wrong. And the vague standards used by the Trump administration create an obvious slippery slope risk. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is far from the only issue discussed on campus that involves terrorism or impinges on US foreign policy interests.
And, yes, I know some universities have fallen short on free speech issues themselves, with policies such as speech codes and mandatory "diversity statements" for faculty candidates. Such failings should be remedied. But they don't justify caving to the Trump Administration's much more sweeping speech restrictions. Among other things, a censorship regime imposed nationwide by the federal government is much more dangerous than restrictions adopted by some individual universities, but rejected by others.
If universities want to protect free speech and academic freedom on campus, they should fight for it. The Tufts Fletcher School faculty have shown us the way.
UPDATE: Jameel Jaffer of the Knight First Amendment Institute informs me that, on March 25, his organization filed a lawsuit similar to the one envisioned above on behalf of the American Association of University Professors (AAUP) and the Middle East Studies Association (MESA). I am glad to hear of it! It is also good that their complaint seeks a nationwide injunction against deportations based on speech. But I don't think this obviates the need for a suit by universities. Among other considerations, I think the latter can more easily get standing than AAUP or MESA, as they likely suffer more extensive and more direct injuries from the deportation of students and employees.
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People shouldn't have student visas cancelled for writing op-eds. But it's strange to see people who were fine with American students being punished for saying that there are two genders suddenly up in arms about it.
Nice try!
We wish we could say the same about your comment.
Better that Trump just execute them on campus.
And shoot a few professors too.
One of the oddest relationships in sociopolitical world is that between conservative/evangelical christians and jewish peoples. The former for all practical intents and purposes loves the latter in the modern day in an improbable enough twist from its former position but the latter absolutely loathes (western diaspora) or is at best somewhat indifferent (israelis) to the former. Here we have the conservative/evangelical christian aligned bloc once again throwing themselves in front of the attacks and burning through political capital for the sake of their unrequited love affair.
Depends on the op Ed.
The United States has no obligation or reason to allow foreigners who advocate terrorism, support terrorist groups, advocate communism or Nazism, or oppose the United States and its current form of government to enter into or remain in the United States. This is black letter law.
In addition, the AAUP is on record starting that academic boycotts are not infringements on academic freedom. https://www.aaup.org/report/statement-academic-boycotts. If it is not an infringement when done by the University I don't See how it can be an infringement when done by the President - the impact on individual faculty is the same.
"enter or remain"? Really?
Yes. Really. Am I missing something?
For foreigners, entering into our remaining in the united states is s privilege, not a right.
You know what's actually black letter law? "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
Did you notice the word "citizens" in your quote?
Do you know how the word ‘or’ works?
Sure. But in context it seems clear that this passage is talking about citizens. This was a case about citizens of the United States who objected to a law requiring them to salute the flag.
Such a requirement applied to foreigners would be clearly inappropriate since a foreigner owes no allegiance to the US or its flag so Jackson was obviously talking about citizens.
I mean, it's rhetoric so it's not wrought for clarity. But citizens would have been placed earlier if it was meant to be universally applicable.
It doesn't seem philosophically coherent to say by negative implication that the government can prescribe what opinions are orthodox for noncitizens to have, so long as it leaves citizens alone.
No allegiance to the US is not material to whether you have rights here.
This case was about citizens. It is unlikely the issue of aliens was briefed or discussed. Therefore the mentioning of citizen a
s opposed to just person seems to be a deliberate exclusion of noncitizens. The decision is not about them.
Allegiance is relevant because this case was about pledging allegiance to the US which is only relevant to citizens. This case was not about aliens and said nothing about their rights.
Yes, Prof. Somin was absolutely at the forefront of people calling for the deportation of those who said there were two genders.
You've said a lot of douche-y things in here, but that one takes the cake.
"People shouldn't have student visas cancelled for writing op-eds. But"
Deflection guy is deflecting.
Supporting free speech only for people you agree with isn't support for free speech.
Right. These colleges only favor free speech when it is against Trump.
Aliens who wish to advocate subversion do not have a right to be in the country. That is what the law is and it should be enforced.
Good news! That wasn't why her visa was canceled.
If you have access to secret information, you should share it with the class. Or, you could just admit you're a liar.
Well it wouldn't be "secret" then.
Fine. So Kleppe should tell it to Jeffrey Goldberg.
"Deflection guy is deflecting."
Apparently discussing the topic in the post about the actual case was deflecting.
Deflecting is talking about anything Sarcastro doesn't approve of.
Remind me how the universities would have any standing here?
Foreign students pay universities for their education.
I see injury, causality, and redressability.
Indirect injury.
Are you arguing it's not traceable?
So, universities should fund deportation litigation for alien students who support Hamas? Have you watched the October 7th videos? How can you do ANYTHING to support people who would do that? Rape, torture, baby killing, taking hostages, killing hostages, genital mutilation, beheading.
If you support Hamas, you can't be in America. Because we are revolted by what they are.
Nor should universities fund cannibalistic sex orgies in pizza parlor basements.
The op-ed in question is about as from from that as it is from whatever you're imagining.
https://www.tuftsdaily.com/article/2024/03/4ftk27sm6jkj
WHAT ELSE HAS SHE DONE????
PERHAPS DONE AT ANOTHER UNIVERSITY???
Well, we know it's not having murdered sex workers, because then you'd be cheering her on.
"So, universities should fund deportation litigation for alien students who support Hamas?"
Yes, We should always stand up for free speech.
Standing up for free speech would pretty much be a first for most of these universities.
There's no injury in fact. Schools don't have a right to collect tuition from a particular student.
Was not the student loan cancelation blocked because an entity was found to be harmed by not being able to collect the interest they expected to collect and thus found to have standing? They don't have a right to that money either.
Not all injures involve being denied a right.
I think that is wrong. Can you name an injury that does not involve being denied a right?
Physical injury violates your right to be free from assault.
Theft violates your right to your own property.
I could keep making examples but that won't prove or disprove your point. A single counter-example would prove your point, though. What's that counter-example?
I think you’ve got it backwards. There’s no right to have the money but they are able to show that as a matter of fact they were and are getting it, but if the student is deported they won’t.
Does that mean all the suits against Biden educational debt amnesty collapse for want of standing?
1. I don’t see how that would warrant injunctive relief.
2. It also seems wrong. Do the students’ landlords/supermarkets/utility companies/fitness clubs have similar claims? If a student gets hit by a car and has to drop out of the program, can the school sue the driver?
Yes, if the driver has a policy of running over Tufts students.
How about the Massachusetts State Police who have a policy of stopping those violating the motor vehicle laws?
1. Could be; I'm weak on remedies. But that's not a standing issue.
2. Doesn't the student loan case establish that yes, that kind of bank shot does give standing?
I hope the universities continue to act on their own worst impulses. Spending money in an effort to prevent the deportation of terrorist sympathizers (what level of support is required before someone moves from sympathizer to outright terrorist themselves?) would be *chef's kiss*. I hope they never stop trying to dig themselves out of their hole.
Labeling people terrorist sympathizers based on an op-ed is a sign you're deeply bad at living in a free society.
Jan 6th.
Charlottesville.
Oh, that's Different....
If you can't determine who somebody sympathizes with from an op-ed, they're a damned poor writer. This writer isn't remotely that bad.
Here's the op-ed.
Here's the University's response.
My first observation is that the writer simply doesn't understand freedom of speech, seems to think that the University is rejecting freedom of speech by just not agreeing with the community union senate.
My second observation is that, yes, this is somebody who sympathizes with Hamas. Not a word about anything Hamas has done, not a word about WHY Israel is at war with Hamas.
Brett's post did not criticize Hitler, so I can only assume he sympathizes with Hitler.
That's just stupid, David, and I know you're not actually stupid, so why would you write that?
Now, if I were writing about the conduct of the Allies in WWII, criticizing it, with not a word about Axis violations of the rules of war, Hitler would certainly be expected to come up, and the omission would be telling.
But in THIS context? Really, the only relevance Hitler has to the current problems in the Middle East is that he was buddies with the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, the predecessor to Hamas. So, if anything, I was being generous to the people being deported by not mentioning him.
The fact of the matter is that the op-ed writer is ideologically allied with Hamas, and the op-ed exposes this quite clearly.
Brett posted another comment, and that one didn't condemn Pol Pot, so I can only assume he supports Pol Pot.
Something done in conjunction with a terrorist group. "Sympathizing" is not any level of support. Independent speech is not any level of support.
"'That the undersigned Executive Faculty of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy urge and would support Tufts University commencing legal action, without delay and in concert with other universities if possible, to enjoin the government and its agents from arresting, detaining, or deporting university students, staff, or faculty based upon their engagement in constitutionally protected expression."
Would it be a problem for a university to have standing to protect its staff and faculty? Or, rather, for the uninitiated WHY would it be a problem ..
"Would it be a problem for a university to have standing to protect its staff and faculty? Or, rather, for the uninitiated WHY would it be a problem .."
Imagine if instead of attending the university, this individual mowed my grass. Would I have standing to assert his injury? How about the local beer store, gas station, Netflix, or Amazon?
That's the problem. Now nearly everyone has standing in this area because they wished that they could associate financially with the person being deported.
So, imagine a quite different situation?
They are not aiming to represent the interests of the university gardeners. Professors and faculty are the lifeblood of the university.
That seems to stretch standing pretty far. This would apply to any business that has international students among it's customers, for example an ethnic restaurant near a university.
That can't be right.
Prof Somin argues economic injury. That strikes me as far too indirect and tenuous. That logic would give every commercial entity anywhere standing to sue over anything that adversely affects even a single customer. The local grocery store could sue an electrity regulator not in its own name but because the rate increase will reduce the free cash left to buy food. Then the electricity company could counter-sue when the grocer increases prices. It's insane and unbounded. There's no possible way that view of standing can stand.
Esp because a school like this is selective enough that it can replaced by another student, probably just as well qualified.
It's a Kangaroo Kort and BECAUSE TRUMP...
Any pretense of rule of law has long gone out the window.
That's why I say Trump should just have Team Hamas shot on sight.
And if you think things are bad now, wait until we start bombing Iran.
Section 212(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act
(C) Foreign policy.-
(i) In general.-An alien whose entry or proposed activities in the United States the Secretary of State has reasonable ground to believe would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States is inadmissible.
You are citing statute in a discussion about the First Amendment.
You are citing the First Amendment in an immigration action that the government has stated is due to tearing up university campuses. I imagine you might desperately want this to be a free speech controversy because that is how the ACLU framed it in their habeas motion.
"You are citing the First Amendment in an immigration action that the government has stated is due to tearing up university campuses."
If you're referring to Rubio's remarks, he does not actually accuse the Tufts student of that--he speaks only in broad hypotheticals.
My understanding is that the NTAs refer only to the students' speech and association, without accusing them of physical action--at least in many cases. Can we assume that your position here will mutate to justify deportations based on speech if so?
"Can we assume that your position here will mutate to justify deportations based on speech if so?"
I have zero qualms with PNGing a foreign national based on their speech. But there is no evidence that is what the subject action is about.
The left will be yelling "it is his free speech!" when a Hamas supporter is standing over their neighbor with a knife at their neck.
These students aren't being deported for their speech. They are being deported for actively supporting Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization and are enemies of our nation. They should be deported.
The left will welcome anyone whose goal is to destroy America. They gleefully use the Constitution to try to convince others we should welcome the architects of our destruction. Hamas supporters do not come here to assimilate into our country. Their stated goal is to destroy America and they are delighted to be welcomed in by the left to do so.
"They are being deported for actively supporting Hamas."
It's odd how bereft these comments are of any actual examples of that. The Tufts op-ed, to take a prominent case, is very far from "actively supporting Hamas."
In the op Ed she seems to identify herself as a member of Tufts Graduate Students for Justice in Palestine.
Numerous affiliates of SJP have supported terrorism. For example, https://x.com/adl/status/1796669749356638356?s=46&t=PoXRscn8ykWXbFHHwyHkoA.
Ozturk's level of connection to these groups is unclear, but membership in an organization that supports terrorism is grounds for deportation
I don't think this is a First Amendment issue.
The government may not punish anyone for speech. However, the government may deport undesirables and the fact that someone is undesirable is often evidenced by speech.
For example, saying "I believe a man has the right to rape any woman who refuses him sex and I plan to exercise this right any time I think the risk of being reported or caught is low." is protected speech but it certainly justifies deporting the speaker if he is a foreigner.
"The government may not punish anyone for speech. However, the government may deport undesirables and the fact that someone is undesirable is often evidenced by speech."
I agree with this. You have a right to say what you want, but as an alien you have no right to enter or remain in the United States. Any country has a right to control its borders. I would fully expect that if I was a tourist in the UK and went on about how the royal family is terrible and so forth that they would be asking me to return to the United States.
If they jailed me, I would think that was a violation, but asking me to leave? Happens every day all across the country.
Making a distinction between punishment and adverse action because you're undesirable is functionally incoherent.
You want to make a purely formalist argument, go for it. But then it'll be hard to avoid some conclusions about your belief in freedom.
1. When my wife applied for a US visa (under Biden) she had to provide her social media accounts and certify that she had never espoused Nazism or terrorism. You think this is a problem?
2. We allow foreigners to enter and remain in the US because it benefits the US, not the foreigner. Any time we determine that the presence of a particular foreigner does not benefit the US we can and should bar or expel that foreigner.
3. There are plenty of things that Americans are generally free to do but that can result in a foreigner being deported. For example, starting a business, taking a job, quitting or losing a job, or disenrolling from an educational program. Foreigners do not have the same freedoms in the United States as Americans do.
Yup. It's a generally applicable statute that regulates conduct and has an incidental effect on speech.
This application of the statute is targeted at speech.
Being generally applicable does not absolve a law from 1A scrutiny.
Neither does targeting conduct not strictly speech.
Gaslighto, this is a statute exercising Article II powers.
Hence, at best, it is a conflict between two parts of the Constitution.
"Reasonable" is a word that can stretch pretty far, but by definition it can't stretch to cover absolutely anything.
Which is how far it would have to stretch to find that op eds and social media posts have "potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States."
Well, if these 300 or so individuals are loudly, publicaly, advocating positions which the US finds difficult in terms of its foreign policy,,,,
Then it would be "reasonable" to say there are adverse foreign policy consequences.
That is a legitimately baffling statement. Millions of people loudly, publicly advocate for positions the US "finds difficult" every single day. It cannot be true, or reasonable, to say that every one of them has "potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences."
(Except insofar as *any* statement could *potentially* have such consequences, if the right person were to read it--but I would hate to be ordered to make such a frivolous argument in court.)
As Sarcastr0 says, this is all rather beside the point, but even if this were just a case about reading the statute that's a hell of a stretch.
"Millions of people loudly, publicly advocate for positions the US "finds difficult" every single day."
But those millions of people are not foreign citizens seeking/holding US visas.
Section 212 is interesting. There are several clauses in there that make certain classes of people inadmissible. Just for example
"Any immigrant who is or has been a member of or affiliated with the Communist or any other totalitarian party (or subdivision or affiliate thereof), domestic or foreign, is inadmissible."
There are...literally...millions of people who fit that bill. And to be honest, much of it is "speech" oriented. Yet, there's no problem with that.
If 300 or so people are loudly calling for the deaths of the Jews, especially in Israel, the Secretary of State might decide that was detrimental to US relations with Israel.
1A applies to non-citizens as much as citizens.
What does that have to do with the point about the effect of random people's speech on foreign policy?
"Well, if these 300 or so individuals are loudly, publicaly, advocating positions which the US finds difficult in terms of its foreign policy,,,,?"
Protecting speech the government does not like is core 1A.
Apparently not if that speech is that there are only two genders.
The two genders case was in K-12 school where student speech rights are not as great as they would be otherwise. In almost all instances, stating there are only two genders is fully protected.
That's great. In almost all cases, writing op-eds is fully protected too.
Quit being a shitheel.
He distinguished the case.
And the Trump admin distinguished the Tuffs case.
I don't see why the free speech rights of American K-12 students should matter less than non-immigrant visa holders.
Right. The question is whether the First Amendment is a shield to deportations. It's not settled law. The letter makes a case for why it should be.
K-12 speech, otoh, is more or less settled under Tinker. Students have a right to express their opinions as long as they don't cause disruption other than the disruption inherent in hearing opinions that you disagree with.
Disruptions caused by hearing opinions you don't like (the heckler's veto) are not protected in K-12.
Yeah, that's because in K-12, the school is dealing with minors and supposedly acting in loco parentis. Whether we should humor that fiction when the school acts so much of the time in opposition to the parents is another question, of course.
Did it ever occur to you that the Delta Charlie might have done more than just write an op ed?
I think there is a much better grounds for exclusion.
"Endorsed or espoused terrorist activity"
Many of the petitions and open letters circulated on US college campuses post Oct 7 endorsed terrorist activity. All foreigners who signed them should be deported.
1) Her op/ed did not do that.
2) That's just another way of saying "speech" anyway.
1. She is apparently a member of Tufts Graduate Students for Justice in Palestine. This is part of Students for Justice in Palestine, many of whose affiliates have clearly endorsed terrorism and terrorist groups. Determining Ozturk's personal culpability is a fact intensive exercise, but there is no question that being a member of an organization that supports terrorism or terrorist groups is grounds fit deportation under current law.
2. Of course this is speech. So? It had been law since WWII that membership in the Nazi party or support for Nazism was grounds for barring admission or deportation. No different.
The op/ed does not actually say that; it's ambiguous. Plus, you've renamed it. The op/ed says "Tufts Graduate Students for Palestine." You added in the "for Justice" to make it sound like it is "part of SJP."
So the 1A protects speech. Just because someone wrote a law doesn't make the law constitutional.
1. OK... So still a fact intensive exercise to find out what organizations she is in and if any of them have supported terrorism or terrorist organizations.
2. The First Amendment does not protect all speech by all speakers. It is currently good law that aliens in the US can be deported for support of Nazism or terrorism or membership in organizations that support these. You are welcome to submit an amicus brief to the Supreme Court asking them to overrule their previous rulings on these subjects if Ozturk's case gets that far.
It is currently good law that aliens in the US can be deported for support of Nazism or terrorism or membership in organizations that support these
What case are you thinking of?
Law. See INA § 237(a)(4)(B).
Although, I should add on here...
If we're playing by Obama/Biden rules, and the "case by case" basis which allowed tens to hundreds of thousands of "immigrants" to be allowed into the United States.
These 300 or so people could potentially be expanded to tens to hundreds of thousands of people who get visas. All of whom the Secretary of State could summarily decide have "potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences." Rather than just this 300 or so.
Now, personally, I thought expanding immigration law via the "case by case" basis to include tens to hundreds of thousands of people was bullshit. I could see 300 people allowed in on a "case by case basis"....but tens of thousands was just an abuse of the system.
But...if that's how the law is NOW interpreted. Well...
Something to consider.
If we're playing by Obama/Biden rules,
Obama/Biden deported people for their speech?
Pointing left all the time without any clear sense of what went on, just a conviction you've been wronged.
"Few things are more corrosive in politics than the conviction that you have been wronged so much that you're justified in breaking all the rules to get even."
"just a conviction you've been wronged."
How could you possibly read Armchair's comment to say he's been wronged?
Never underestimate Sarcastr0's ability to misread something.
"Obama/Biden rules"
Those are just normal due process rules. It is telling that providing basic constitutional rights is now seen as a liberal position.
No. The question here is how much process is due for revoking student visas. And the answer is probably some, but not as much as is due citizens or resident aliens.
Not sure the relevance of the section on aliens inadmissible for admission in discussing what can be done to an alien already admitted. So I'd suggest trying again.
But why wouldn’t an alien who would be inadmissible, not be subject to loss of their visa for the same actions?
They often are. But it isn't particularly weird that rules would be different for people in different situations. Primarily because once you are here you have certain constitutional protections that you don't have before you're here.
That's why there's an entire different section of the law about removing people who have already been admitted. And it even specifically includes, by reference to the other section, various reasons would also be cause for beginning the process of removal for someone already admitted. But they are not exactly the same. And the process laid out for what to do about it are different.
Oh? Is when some zionist or some palestinian advocates for their people, they are anti-american?
"The Trump administration has been detaining and trying to deport immigrant and foreign students for their First-Amendment protected speech. That includes even speech that does not even support terrorism, as in the case of a Tufts graduate student detained for an anti-Israel op ed that, however flawed, does not endorse Hamas terrorism, or indeed even mention it."
Ilya couldn't even make it one sentence without lying, and then repeated the lie in the second sentence.
Secretary of State Rubio specifically stated that the Tufts graduate student had been detained “not just because you want to write op-eds,” but over vandalism and “that sort of activity.”
https://youtu.be/L7PXKkJeNAk?si=hss9lK6KqNGNJZv8
I will not hypothesize about Ilya's motive for misrepresenting the reason for the Tufts student's detention and imminent deportation.
Thanks for the link. I think you've misrepresented Rubio's comments:
“Let me be abundantly clear okay if you go apply for a Visa right now anywhere in the world let me just send this message out if you apply for a visa to enter the United States and be a student and you tell us that the reason why you're coming to the United States it's not just because you want to write op eds but because you want to participate in movements that are involved in doing things like vandalizing universities harassing students taking over buildings creating a Ruckus we're not going to give you a Visa. If you lie to us and get a visa and then enter the United States and with that Visa participate in that sort of activity we're going to take away your visa.”
(The auto-transcription does not punctuate well, and I did only very minor edits.)
It seems to me he was careful to not accuse the student of vandalism, and whatever his intent he only spoke in broad hypotheticals.
Rubio is full of shit.
No one has accused her specifically of vandalism. He just throws around the accusation with worrying about whether it applies to any given individual.
I will not hypothesize about Ilya's motive for misrepresenting the reason for the Tufts student's detention and imminent deportation.
Yeah. Right. As Kolyin suggests, the liar here is not Somin but you.
"Rubio is full of shit."
Rubio is the government official responsible for the action in question. I will credit what he has to say about his own decisions over, say, the detained student's friends and lawyers.
I'm happy she is being deported. Hopefully she will learn from the error of her ways and avoid Hamas and Hezbollah gatherings when she gets back to the third-world shit hole where she belongs.
Yes, and what you say he said and give him credit for having said truthfully he didn't actually say.
There is no evidence she supports Hamas, even in the op-ed.
I'm happy she is being deported.
No doubt. Because you are a xenophobic asshole who doesn't give a shit about laws or anything but your own prejudices.
I don't give one rat's ass about what Rubio says, and what he says should be irrelevant to this. We don't deny basic rights to people just because a politician says so.
Foreigners have no basic right to remain in the United States.
We deny basic rights to people all the time. She also can’t possess a gun, nor, in most states, vote. So, yes, we have different classes of people here in the US, with those who are citizens, rightfully, at the top, with the most rights.
Well, what Rubio says and does is important, because he is the one Constitutionally entrusted with the issuance and revocation of visas. He sets policy for the State Department, which issues and revokes them. Yes, his policy is different than under Biden, but policy was different then, from when Trump was President before. That’s why elections matter.
Uh, what? Notwithstanding some of the more excitable commenters here, no one is contemplating deporting universities.
Just their students and employees.
Universities should stop hiring and admitting terrorists and terrorist sympathizers, I guess.
We got a lot of students in this country. Some pro-Israel, some pro-Palestinian, some pro-Ukainian. Which one am I supposed to hate?
You shouldn't hate people for any of these reasons.
There is a big difference between supporting Palestinians and supporting terrorism and terrorists.
I live in UAE. I talk to many people here who support a two state solution so Palestinians can have their own country and who think the first step is for Israel to kill every single Hamas member since they are an obstacle to peace. Some people told me that the US was pushing for ceasefire to protect Hamas some peace would reduce US power in the region.
Those people are pro Palestinian without being pro terrorism.
And they’re more than entitled to be upset about it. But to bring a class action, you do have to actually be a member of the class.
Did you understand him to be suggesting that universities should try to certify a class of [edit: only] students?
You think he was suggesting they attempt to certify a class of universities? That also seems pretty stupid!
I think the argument would be more or less that universities are harmed by having their students and faculty members deported. I think that gives them standing, and it overcomes limitations on aliens judicially challenging deportation that universities, as American institutions, don’t have. I think such a standing argument would work.
Now all they need is a merits legal theory to accompany their standing argument with.
Do universities also have standing to challenge deportations of unquestionably criminal foreign-national students?
unquestionably criminal
Short circuit discussions of due process by just assuming it away!
It's a hypothetical, you goof.
Yes. Even taking your statements at face value yes. The universities plausibly claim the deportations will cause them losses, the losses are caused by the deportations, a judicial order to halt the deportation would relieve their losses. That’s standing.
Whether these foreign students and faculty are “unquestionably criminals” is a different question entirely. It seems to me that it is in fact highly questionable. A number of these people claim are being deported for allegedly speaking out in favor of Hamas and nothing else. And there are some statements from the Administration that would seem to suggest that’s true.
Now, there’s precedent (the Shaugnesey case from 1952) that the government can indeed deport aliens because it thinks their speech a problem for US security and foreign policy. But that doesn’t make them in any way criminals. Even if they can be deported because of their speech, the First Amendment protects them from being charged with a crime for it.
And if I am leasing crack houses, the government arresting the folks dealing therein would cause me losses as well.
Yes, and you’d have standing to sue. For one thing, the fact the government says you’re leasing crack houses doesn’t mean you are. You can claim they aren’t crack houses. And even if they are, you can claim you didn’t know they were and the government is unnecessarily damaging the houses by its conduct or any number of other things. You may lose on the merits, but you’d have standing to sue.
I think that like it or not, the Supreme Court is not going to overide Shaugnessey. And I think it shouldn’t, as United States’ foreign policy-based power to deport really is plenary, and plenary means plenary.
There is a potential differenctiation. In Shaugnessey, Congress itself said that people who were previously members of the Communist Party coyld be deported. Here the President has stated the requirements by proclamation.
I don’t think that distinction makes a difference because I think Congress has the power to delegate almost the entirety of its war and foreign policy powers to the President, unwise as I think that delegation was
While the President has power to negotiate, most of the really big powers - to declare war, to regulate immigration, and more - were expressly given to Congress, not the President. I think this was in no small part because the Framers did not want such large and dangerous powers in the hands of any one person.
I think it was foolish of Congress to have delegated much of its power away. I think the present circumstances illustrate the danger of letting the President possess that power unchecked. But I think I’m constrained to say that constitutionally, Congress could do so, however unwise and impolitic.
I disagree as to foreign policy. The Senate has to ratify treaties, and absent their Spending Power, that is most of Congress’ foreign policy power under our Constitution. From early on, in our Republic, the President, and his Secretary of State, have been preeminent in conducting foreign policy. Moreover, it’s not something that Congress is suited to doing. We have foreign relations with > 160 countries in this world, including those we don’t have formal relations with (which lack itself is conducting foreign policy - for example, before Nixon, we didn’t recognize the PRC as China, so didn’t have a formal relationship with them).
Congress and not the President is given the power to declare war, to issue letters of marque and repreisal (that is, to initiate covert action), and to regulate immigration. Also to regulate international commerce and set tariffs.
Congress if it wanted to could do all of these things itself. It could, for example, itself set tariffs and itself decide which classes of aliens should be treated more severely. It has chosen to delegate that power to the President. But it doesn’t have to. While the President has prosecutorial discretion to be lenient, the President has no inherent power to decide that for example particular classes of aliens are threats to national security and get treated more harshly. All the President’s power to do that arises because Congress gave it to him. Congress can take some or all of that power back.
I hope the universities continue to act on their own worst impulses. Spending money in an effort to prevent the deportation of terrorist sympathizers (what level of support is required before someone moves from sympathizer to outright terrorist themselves?) would be *chef's kiss*. I hope they never stop trying to dig themselves out of their hole.
You have a point -- they are showing the whole world what they are made of. At what point is there a tipping point where the public is no longer willing to fund them?
What Columbia has pointed out is that even rich schools won't last long without the Federal largess.
Columbia has a 13.6 billion dollar endowment. I suspect they will be okay.
To avoid the standing questions, the universities could create a common fund from which to pay legal fees for students threatened with deportation. I doubt that a class could be certified, because there are too many individualized questions of fact, and perhaps of law, as well.
The biggest concern is that if the universities do file such a lawsuit, they will almost certainly over-reach, and attempt to protect every foreign student, even the ones who obviously really are actively supporting terrorism, or otherwise very clearly in violation of the terms of their visa and of general good behavior. Things like printing pamphlets calling for loyalty oaths to Hamas and expelling all Israeli Jews from campus clubs.
When the university lawsuit goes to trial... The university will eventually be forced to go on record as stating that they knew there were two kinds of students, the ones who really were just having honest intellectual discussions, versus the ones who really were openly supporting Hamas.... and that the university never took obvious and needful actions to report or discipline the second kind.
When that happens... Pulling the right of the university in question to host ANY foreign students, or any foreign students with connections to certain countries, will become a credible option, with justifying evidence having been clearly presented in court that the universities were willfully covering for the 'bad' kind of foreign students. Such as the time certain universities cancelled suspensions of misbehaving foreign students because if that totally justified disciplinary suspension of said students became public record, revoking their student visa would be automatic.
Under the circumstances, the worst offending universities have a choice... either they can file a lawsuit AFTER throwing all the worst offenders under the bus, and ONLY attempt to save the genuine good-faith intellectual debaters.... Or they can try to avoid drawing attention to themselves by not filing a lawsuit in the first place. Or they can commit institutional suicide by filing the lawsuit on behalf of all foreign students.
I don't think the universities are going to pick the 'throw some people under the bus' option.
Correct. For example Rubio could simply instruct all US embassies and consulate overseas to reject student visa applications from students attending Columbia and Tufts, since those universities have shown themselves incapable of protecting the other students from these radicals.
Even simpler, he can remove them from the list of approved institutions.
Universities, already laboring under declining applications, donors pulling funding, the feds pulling funding, antisemitism charges for allowing Hamas supporters to harras jewish students, are not going to sign onto a class action (unless they want to go bankrupt)
Actually, they ARE that stupid.
Or that afraid of their campus radicals -- I don't know which.
Did you notice that the Interim President of Columbia resigned after making the deal to keep her Federal $$$$?
The link to the complaint is broken, it’s available here:
https://knightcolumbia.org/documents/pwkvocf6z4
It does offer an advantage over Prof. Somin’s proposal insofar as it appears to include plaintiffs who are expressing concern about their own possible deportations. That said, their standing theory seems inconsistent with Clapper v. Amnesty International.
I should add that I’m singularly unimpressed by their efforts to whitewash the nature of the protests in their factual allegations. If you think that antisemitic, anti-American lunacy can’t be a basis for removal from the country, have the courage to say it forthrightly.
First, I don't think one can make a general statement that it's all antisemitic. This administration seems to have no issue lumping groups together making blanket false assertions.
Second, even if it's antisemetic, antiamerican, would openly admitting that that be zealous advocacy?
Seems needlessly antagonistic.
"First, I don't think one can make a general statement that it's all antisemitic."
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, as they say.
"Second, even if it's antisemetic, antiamerican, would openly admitting that that be zealous advocacy?"
The ACLU managed to defend the Nazis in Skokie without feeling obligated to pretend they were nice folks.
The university position seems to be no free speech for Americans, no free speech for Trump supporters, but free speech for foreign Arabs who want to kill Jews.
EXACTLY.
And then they hide behind "academic freedom."
The op-ed says Tufts should "acknowledge the Palestinian genocide". OK, let me acknowledge that.
I find it astounding that the people raving about non-existent "Israeli genocide" somehow manage to ignore the 75-year-long record of the endless genocidal attempts of Palestinians to kill every Jew in the Middle East.
It started with their war on the day Israel was created, when they firmly believed that they would win, kill all the Jews, and take all of the Jews' land and belongings.
When that didn't work, they began a string of endless wars with the same object in mind—killing all the Jews.
In more modern times, both the PLO and Hamas have the "From the river to the sea" genocidal message baked into their charters.
And the Palestinian people are clearly in favor of genocide—it's taught in their schools, they repeat the genocidal "From the river to the sea" chant endlessly, they fire endless missiles randomly into Israeli civilian areas, and they pay welfare to the families of the suicide murderers. Only 13% of Gazans thought the vile rapes and murders on 10/7 were wrong …
Finally, Hamas started the current war to the death by committing their unbelievable atrocities on 10/7 and then promising to repeat them over and over until every Jew is dead. Can you say "genocide"?
The reality is, the Israelis have enough firepower to turn Gaza into glassy slag and kill every living thing. But they haven't done that and never will. Instead, they are doing their utmost to prevent civilian casualties.
So don't give me any BS about Israeli genocide. Anyone with half a brain can see that it is the Palestinians who have pushed a genocidal agenda forever.
OK. I've acknowledged the Palestinian genocide. Happy now?
w.
"I find it astounding that the people raving about non-existent "Israeli genocide" somehow manage to ignore the 75-year-long record of the endless genocidal attempts of Palestinians to kill every Jew in the Middle East."
Precisely. Above, Sarcastr0 pretends that you can't tell who those op-ed writers sympathize with from just an op-ed. Of course you can, they made it quite clear: They sympathize with Hamas. Not one word of complaint about what Hamas has done, about all the murders Hamas has committed.
Then, of course, there's the question of student group memberships. The various "For Palestine" student groups are heavily entangled with Hamas.
I've said this before, I'll say it again: Trump is baiting his foes into publicly defending monsters, and they take the bait every time.
Brett, you are the worst at mindreading, and yet you are addicted to it.
And even if you were better at understanding your fellow humans, thoughtcrime is a cartoonishly direct assault on freedom.
Gaslighto, it's time to actually HAVE a Palestinian genocide, and to shut down the subversive universities that support these vermin.
Whereas you're apparently terrible at "written text reading", if you genuinely think there's some question about the op-ed authors' sympathies.
You can't get a visa to the US if you're affiliated with a terrorist organization, and you shouldn't expect to get to keep one if you become affiliated with a terrorist organization. And anybody who joins one of the student "for Palestine" organizations is affiliating themselves with a terrorist organization, or are too dumb to be in college anyway. They're Hamas fronts.
Trump really is baiting the left into defending nasty people, and you're fooling yourself about how nasty they are, to justify it.
anybody who joins one of the student "for Palestine" organizations is affiliating themselves with a terrorist organization
Nope. No such finding is even possible given your broad sweep.
You stepped in hating freedom again.
Hating apologists for genocidal murderers, anyway.
Professor Somin.
Trump’s sister did not find the statute in question unconstitutional on First Amendment grounds. She found that the statute violated due process due to vagueness, violated due process because the accused alien has no opportunity to be heard, and was also an undue delegation of authority to the Secretary of State.
Funny, but not surprising, how neither you nor the Tufts faculty mention this. I am sure the last thing the Tufts faculty wants to do is support the delegation doctrine.
I just this weekend read Thomas G West's history of the Founders and 1A and universities have not a leg to stand on.
Being anti-Trump seems enough to have standing these days, but I don't think the schools should have standing. Students are not schools' property. They should offer to assist in legal defense of students. As it becomes more difficult to deport people the administration will become more selective.
Would it be your position that a company doesn’t have standing to enforce a non-compete agreement because, after all, employees are not the company?
If there’s standing to enforce a non-compete agreement - poaching my employees causes me loss - then why isn’t there standing here? Deporting my employees also causes me loss.
Applying neutral standing principles, I don’t see a problem.
That doesn't even make a tiny bit of sense as an analogy. That's an ordinary contract case: I paid you to refrain from doing X and you did it anyway. I can also sue the competitor on a claim for tortious interference with that contract.
If I run over a student I don't expect the school to sue me for damages.
I am obviously about as sympathetic to Trump as I am to any other fascist, but I don't think the standing argument works here. (That's not to say that some courts wouldn't embrace it, but I don't think our current federal judiciary would accept it. (Unless it went after abortion or trans policies or something, of course.)) As someone said, "I stand to lose money if my customers are deported" is an argument without a stopping point.
For example, in the 1952 Harisiades decision, the Supreme Court only upheld deportation of Communist Party members on the ground that - under then-current precedent - membership in the Party wasn't protected by the First Amendment at all, even for US citizens.
Today's Supreme Court is often hostile to immigrants' rights, but it also provides strong protection for freedom of speech. The latter tendency might well prevail over the former, especially when the speech restrictions in question are as vague and sweeping as those the Trump Administration seeks to implement.
That is an argument to be made in a certiorari petition before the United States Supreme Court. Inferior courts must of course follow Harisiades, just as they once had to follow Baker v. Nelson and Roe v. Wade.
(Of course, the defendants may have to state something like,"While we acknowledged Harisiades controls our First amendment challenge, we respectfully submit that it was wrongly decided" in order to preserve the issue for appeal.)