The Volokh Conspiracy
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Court: Public School Likely May Ban Student from Wearing "There Are Only Two Genders" T-Shirt,
notwithstanding the First Amendment.
From L.M. v. Town of Middleborough, decided today by Judge Indira Talwani (D. Mass.):
Plaintiff … is unable to counter Defendants' showing that enforcement of the Dress Code was undertaken to protect the invasion of the rights of other students to a safe and secure educational environment. School administrators were well within their discretion to conclude that the statement "THERE ARE ONLY TWO GENDERS" may communicate that only two gender identities—male and female—are valid, and any others are invalid or nonexistent, and to conclude that students who identify differently, whether they do so openly or not, have a right to attend school without being confronted by messages attacking their identities. As Tinker explained, schools can prohibit speech that is in "collision with the rights of others to be secure and be let alone."
Plaintiff contends that … Defendants could not restrict the Shirt as an "invasion of the rights of others" unless it determined that the speech "targeted a specific student" (quoting Norris on behalf of A.M. v. Cape Elizabeth Sch. Dist. (1st Cir. 2020)). Norris, however, did not attempt to set a rule for all speech that is an "invasion[] of the rights of others" or even "the precise boundaries of what speech constitutes 'bullying' such that it falls within the 'invasion of the rights of others' framework of Tinker." Instead, Norris concluded that where the school had justified the limitation on the student's statement that "THERE IS A RAPIST IN OUR SCHOOL AND YOU KNOW WHO IT IS" on the ground that the student had engaged in "bullying" under the school's policy, the school was required to demonstrate that it had a reasonable basis to determine that the speech targeted a specific student and invaded that student's rights.
Here, the School's rational for prohibiting the Shirt is not that LM is bullying a specific student, but that a group of potentially vulnerable students will not feel safe. A broader view directed at students' safety has been acknowledged by other courts. See, e.g., West v. Derby Unified Sch. Dist. No. 260 (10th Cir. 2000) (holding the display of the confederate flag may interfere with the rights of others to be secure); Chandler v. McMinnville Sch. Dist. (9th Cir. 1992) (recognizing that school officials may suppress speech that is vulgar, lewd, obscene, or plainly offensive as "such language, by definition, may well 'impinge upon the rights of other[s].'"); Scott v. School Bd. of Alchua Cty. (11th Cir. 2003) (recognizing that a students' rights cannot interfere "with a school administrator's professional observation that certain expressions have led to, and therefore could lead to, an unhealthy and potentially unsafe learning environment for the children they serve."); see also Doe v. Hopkinton Pub. Schs. (1st Cir. 2021) ("Tinker holds that schools have a special interest in regulating speech that involves the 'invasion of the rights of others.'").
I don't think this is consistent with students' First Amendment rights under Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. School Dist. (1969) [UPDATE: see this post by Hans Bader (Liberty Unyielding)], but in any event it struck me as important to pass along. It's a vivid illustration of how discussion about gender matters is being restricted, including discussion of mainstream positions, and indeed of positions that need to be aired if there's going to be real debate rather than just government fiat. And it's a reminder of how easily "hate speech" arguments and similar arguments broaden, once a precedent is set, for instance from the Confederate flag to "there are only two genders."
Deborah Ecker (KP Law, P.C.), Garrett Gee, John Simon & Kay Hodge (Stoneham, Chandler & Miller), and Gregg Corbo represent defendants.
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We’ll ask the obvious question.
Can the state protect the right of people who feel uncomfortable with black people sitting in the front of the bus? After all, it was precisely the right to feel comfortable and secure that Plessy v. Fetguson said the state was entitled to protect.
And what about this kid’s right to feel comfortable and secure?
"And what about this kid’s right to feel comfortable and secure?"
He doesn't have rights -- only members of selected groups do -- that is how bad Massachusetts K-12 has become.
Now the interesting question would be another lawsuit citing this one, seeking an injunction AGAINST THE SCHOOL ordering it to prohibit rainbow shirts, etc.
I also hope that the family appeals to the First Circuit.
The other question I have is can the student get an injunction against the Commonwealth for the truancy statute until the case is heard?
This begs the question “What other shirts has the school district allowed?”
This is the schools dress code. You raise a very good point as this is quite clearly content based and subjective.
• Clothing must not state, imply, or depict hate speech or imagery that target groups based on race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religious affiliation, or any other classification.
• Any other apparel that the administration determines to be unacceptable to our community standards will not be allowed.
Notable in its absence is Pyle v. So Hadley, the "Coed Naked" T shirt suit. I knew that the Mass SJC had ruled in favor of the Pyle boys and what I had forgotten was that the First Circuit had sent the issue to the SJC because of a 1974 Massachusetts "Student Free Expression Law" -- or something, IANAA.
See: https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/news/state/1996/07/26/sjc-coed-naked-shirts-ok/50631196007/
Now Mt. Holyoke College is in South Hadley, and this was back in 1993 when the issue was hostile environment for women, and the argument the school had was that it needed to make female students feel "safe." Which is the same issue here, just for a different group of students.
QED we have an Obama Judge ignoring her own circuit!
The problem there is who defines "hate"?
Oh really. Give us your definition then, so that we may giggle.
Here is the Mass SJC's: masscases.com/cases/sjc/423/423mass283.html
Begging the question does not mean inviting the question.
Whining about the true meaning of "begging the question" does not change the common meaning.
Here it looks like the district judge did some question begging in her opinion.
¨Begging the question¨ is a useful idiom, properly meaning assuming the conclusion. Misusing the idiom diminishes its usefulness.
It's only as useful as the public wants it to be, same as all language. Many many words' meanings have changed over time. Petulant cries of "it doesn't mean that" don't change how the public uses them. One of my favorite changed phrases is "I could care less", and I go out of my way to use it with dweebs who get so hung up on the literal meaning that they don't understand the intent, or the sneer it includes just to spite them.
We could care less about your efforts to troll people who care about accurate use of language.
But if we did, we wouldn't spend time commenting about it.
I really hope this comment is an intentional self-parody, but either way it's today's comedy winner.
re: "It’s only as useful as the public wants it to be"
Not just no but hell, no. The fact that a vocal minority of people get a word wrong is no excuse to cater to their error. Niggardly is not a dirty or offensive word (at least, no more offensive than calling someone cheap) and "begging the question" is not the same as "calling for the followup question". Error should be called out and corrected. Those who choose to wallow in their error rather than using the opportunity to learn deserve our undisguised scorn.
Indeed, ng.
The alternate usage among the ignorant only states the obvious rather than pointing out an error in logic.
"Begging the question does not mean inviting the question."
OK. I'll admit I don't know the difference. What is it?
Begging the question is a logical fallacy in which an argument’s premises assume the truth of the conclusion. Arguments that beg the question work to obscure the actual points in controversy and can be looked at as a form of circular reasoning.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/beg_the_question
Thanks
People certainly have the right to feel uncomfortable. They even have the right to say they feel uncomfortable. The government is required to protect those rights.
Also, what the hell does Plessy have to do with "feel comfortable"?
Lets hear both sides.
If someone wants to say that blacks can only sit in the back of the bus then I'm sure there is a huge audience to hear it, and 99% will be opposed.
Amy mother was recently telling me a story about when she was traveling through the south in the late.40's with her sisters. My mother grew up in Arizona and San Francisco where there was no segregation of course, and she always liked to ride in the back of the bus. Well when she got on the bus in this particular southern state and walked to the back and.mortified everyone on the bus, black, white and the rest of the family she had no idea what was going on. She's always been socially awkward, that's where I got it from.
What about the right to quality health care
As a doctor in Vanderbilt’s transition clinic bragged, the hospital started the clinic after being convinced that it would be a “big money maker”: hormone interventions “bring[] in several thousand dollars,” while “top” surgeries “bring in” $40,000, and “female to male bottom surgeries are huge money makers” ($100,000) because they are so “labor-intensive” and “require a lot of follow-up.” Why bother with the difficult work of addressing underlying mental health issues through psychosocial support—an approach that many countries mandate but WPATH here ignores—when profitable genital surgeries on vulnerable children without threat of lawsuits await?
OK, I'm as Un-Woke as they get, think Homos should stay in the closet, (all for Lesbians making out in pubic, if they're hot), and cheered when "Vito" bought the farm on the Sopranos (he was a brutal murderer! killed that poor New Hampshire dude just so the Cops wouldn't come)
but a kid who wears a "There are only Two Genders" shirt?? what? were they out of "Shit Stinks", "Getting Kicked in the Balls Hurts" shirts,
I'd be one of the jocks giving him a "Red Belly" (Yes, believe it or not, I was a "Jock" in Highschool)
Frank "Hello, McFly!!!!!!!!!"
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators.
Antisocial racists, old-timey misogynists, chanting antisemites (antisemitic, immigrant-hating, worthless, right-wing asshole Robert Bowers was convicted by his betters today), disaffected and on-the-spectrum clingers, half-educated Islamophobes, un-American apologists for insurrectionists, deplorable Trump supporters . . . the entire basket of culture war roadkill.
This is the audience this white, male blog has attracted. This is the audience this faux libertarian blog has cultivated. This is the audience the Volokh Conspiracy deserves.
Carry on, clingers. The culture war's winners will establish how far and how long.
OK, Kirkland, let's see your list of the demographics of the jury that convicted Bowers.
What, you don't HAVE one? Why am I not surprised.
I do not need a list to conclude that those jurors are better than Robert Bowers. Vividly better.
I blame my disdain for antisemitic, racist, immigrant-hating, hard-right gun nuts.
Robert Bowers, after using his guns to murder innocents, crawled out on his belly, whimpering, begging for help. If America is fortunate, Bowers will die alone and sad in a cell, always a coward, a bigot, a culture war casualty, and a right-wing stain and drain on our society.
Carry on, clingers. Your betters will let you know how far and for how long.
There will be many more Robert Bowers in the USA over the next few years, AIDS. You are helping to create them.
Carry on, AIDS, till they come for your family.
You figure my objections to the bigotry at this blog are creating more bigots?
The many bigots at this blog are attracted -- and flattered -- by Profs. Volokh and Blackman (and, occasionally, a few others).
Well, you’re presently alienating a critical mass of moderates. The recent news about gays and beer cans, for example, shows how you’re too dimwitted to wield power effectively: you push away even potential allies by trying to compel them to deepthroat your images, preferred lexicon, and ideology.
The right, however, you’re simply going to push over the edge into large-scale violence. You talk of replacement and of the eradication of their political culture, and so directly threaten their hopes and dreams for their own children, etc. So it doesn’t matter which of your colour teams wins ANY of your elections EVER again; nothing your government or police forces can do will stop this from happening. Your country’s proper fucked, and a lot of the blame falls squarely with you and your ilk.
Your superficial, hypocritical, disingenuous political ideology is doomed as well: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned
(You totally deserve this, by the way. It's entirely a function of your hubris and ignorance of other cultures, faiths, etc. It's due to your pan-cultural incompetence.)
This blog is plagued by Arthur’s repeated statements espousing Islamophobia (and indeed, the outright intention to destroy that faith altogether), his contempt for the poor and uneducated, and his American chauvinism.
Arthur has also repeatedly, and explicitly, called for, and stated his approval of, population replacement and cultural genocide. These are calls for action which would directly violate international human rights law.
He also repeatedly threatens authoritarian action, stating that ‘betters’ — which must be understood to include himself, on his view — shall silence those he dislikes, and furthermore implies that he/they will eliminate those disfavoured groups.
It is therefore of critical importance to have Arthur’s real identity released/publicized, as he should be — in the least — disbarred on these grounds. Further, all of Arthur’s clients, neighbours, and peers should be free to learn about his pernicious, politically unacceptable views, and about how he has spent YEARS trolling a website (almost daily) with trite, vicious, hateful content. This should provide everyone he knows with a more robust understanding of the quality of Arthur’s mind, and might deter them from any further association/utilisation of his professional services.
He's not a lawyer, he's clearly just a whiny bootlicker.
I've seen bootlicker lawyers before...
This is an Obama judge from California who has flown under the radar so far -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Talwani
I give EV credit for finding this as it has flown below the local media here in the Brave New People's Republic of Taxachusetts and I'd like to know why the decision doesn't also violate the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause.
But the larger question that Delta Charlies like this judge don't understand is the educational consequences of a decision like this -- what does she think is going to happen later this summer when he has a few of his buddies around, and all have consumed more than a few beers?
Yes, this is how we get trannies thrown off bridges...
Good job, "Judge" Talwani....
Having written what I wrote, I will now say that if the facts are anything like as you state them, the school district is more than entitled to prevail.
Political speech is one thing. Gang signs are something entirely different.
WTF?
How does this become a gang symbol?
I'm merely discussing child development here -- in language simple enough for anyone to understand. The kid will go from anti-trannie to a trannie hater.
Yes, this is how we get trannies thrown off bridges…
Every time Ed disagrees with something. ‘People who are not me will kill a minority over this!’
And then it doesn’t happen.
Over and over again. Just a really fucked up way to react to stuff.
"Because nothing has happened yet, nothing ever well, neener neener!" is some kind of hot take.
Because nothing has happened yet, nothing ever well, neener neener!
LoB thinks a lot less of the right than I do, I guess. Though really I was observing a longstanding pattern of past wrongness in Ed's constant predictions of political violence whenever a policy or court case sets him off.
Go ahead, LoB. Defend Ed.
Sarcastr0, "Cognitive Aggression Theory" is considered "best practices" in both K-12 and Higher Education. It holds "inevitably will" while I am merely saying "may" -- and I trust you can understand the distinction I am making. Hopefully...
The biggest (of many) problems I have with "Cognitive Aggression Theory" is that it presumes no difference between the left and right -- ignoring the fact that the right holds Locke's value of God-given rights to Life, Liberty, and Property.
But much as FDR opposed bombing civilian targets in 1939, only to firebomb both Dresden and Toyko five years later, I warn that the right may well adopt the violent tactics of the left. Sadly, violence works -- it's worked well for the left for over half a century, and it's unrealistic to presume that the right will never resort to it.
Ed, I don't trust your expertise on the application of this theory, especially because I note your pattern of violent predictions has never come true over years and years.
A lot of young men have been kicked out of colleges because others believed in the theory.
Just sayin....
I do believe you think that.
But you take issues in that area personally and emotionally to an extreme degree.
I'm not confident your interpretation of what happened, especially the 'a lot' generalization, is correct.
Rewinding half a tick, Ed's comment didn't say anything about an insular "the right" -- nor did mine, nor did yours I responded to. So let's peel off that distraction.
Your original comment struck me as akin to standing right outside the periphery of a dog's chain, taunting it, and gloating about how strong the chain is.
My point -- and my only point, despite your finest mind-reading efforts to the contrary -- is that dynamic only holds until the moment it doesn't, you don't know when that moment will be, and you can't unring the bell if and when it shifts.
So maybe the better part of wisdom is to cut back on the taunting and gloating, and encourage others to do the same. That's all.
That is, as usual, not the point your OP makes.
Calling out Ed is not taunting or gloating.
You keep retconing your posts, unless it’s some pedantic irrelevancy, which you will post on forever.
You are incredibly tedious.
As usual, your response simply attacks me and how I don't write or think in ways that suit your fancy, with absolutely zero response on the merits of what I actually said.
And yes, you've spent half this thread taunting Ed for making predictions that haven't happened on your approved timeframe. But my broader point that you're avoiding also squarely applies to the sort of behavior Ed has been discussing.
These conservative assholes are just whining and blustering, which is about all that is left for these all-talk, cowardly, largely useless losers to do in an America shaped against their stale, ugly right-wing thinking by better Americans.
That covers most of the commenters and most of the Conspirators.
Keep it coming, AIDS! Push them to the brink! How many millions of firearms are held in private hands in the USA? How easily are they secured at gun shows?
Have you purchased cemetery plots for your family yet?
Where do your grandkids go to school? You forgot to mention. (What do you have to fear in this regard? After all, those 'conservative assholes' are all just talk, yeah?)
Remember, it's NOT merely your intuition, not just your gut telling you, that those 'conservative assholes' are all talk and that they will NEVER take action. Rather, you KNOW, definitively, that nary a one of them would ever act upon their rhetoric, and never will. So you have NOTHING to worry about in terms of divulging your personal information and that concerning your family members.
Any comments on the substance of the post, Sarcastro?
I can and often do react to a commend without having an opinion on the OP.
Any comment on Ed's prediction of trans murder, TiP?
Pro-tranny obnoxiousness, as here (or in that tranny rapist case in the Virginia schools), no doubt increases hostility towards trannies and violence towards trannys, and not necessarily more by "the right" than among the apolitical. Why would you think otherwise?
“I can and often do react to a commend without having an opinion on the OP.
Any comment on Ed’s prediction of trans murder, TiP?”
So you don’t have an opinion on the OP?
I don’t think this ruling is likely to lead to trannies being thrown off bridges, and if it did, the anger would be misplaced. The culprit here is the judge.
So do you think people should be punished for wearing t-shirts that say, "There are only two genders" or not?
I may or may not have an opinion on the OP; I'm not gonna share it either way.
Why not? Are you embarrassed? You’ve never been reluctant to share your opinion before, Sarcastro.
I don't feel strongly about it, and it seems more an invitation for you to deflect further.
Deflect from what? The topics that are deflecting discussion of the op? I’m the one who’s trying to discuss the topic of the post here.
And I notice that you only feel strongly about free speech when the government controls its own speech and not when the government engages in actual censorship.
I recall that you felt quite strongly when Florida chose not to allow its employees to discuss sexual issues with Kindergartners.
Or maybe you just don’t feel strongly when it’s your side doing the censorship.
Deflecting from Ed, you forgot because you don’t care when it’s on your side.
This is why I’m not engaging you. You don’t want a debate. Strawmanning and culture war bullshit is all you offer.
Huh? You asked my opinion of what Ed said and I gave it to you.
But you don't want to give your opinion of the actual topic of the thread? Sounds like you're the one who doesn't want a debate.
Honestly I think you don't want to give your opinion because you can't defend your side's conduct here, but you don't want to criticize your side.
They kill themselves before anyone can get to them, lmao
"They kill themselves before anyone can get to them, lmao"
They already ARE -- part of the justification for this unConstitutional policy is that there have been tranny suicides in the district.
Which raises the question of if they killed themselves because everyone didn't affirm their mental illness, or were they already mentally ill with trannyism being a mere symptom of a larger mental illness...
Imagine if we "affirmed" anorexia....
The transgender craziness asserts that's transgenderism is perfectly normal and healthy and simultaneously causing 40-50% suicide attempt rates
"They kill themselves before anyone can get to them"
Sadly, that's actually accurate, there is an incredibly high suicide rate amongst trannies, particularly as they get into their 20s.
The district (I believe school) has already had a trannie suicide and that is mentioned as one of the justifications for this unconstitutional policy. Surprise, surprise, mentally ill children commit suicide -- perhaps we should treat the mental illness????
Dr. Ed, I must once again implore you, from the bottom of my heart: please stop helping.
Another day at the Volokh Conspiracy, another exhibition of violence-infused bigotry.
Which is just the way the right-wing law professors who operate this white, male, movement conservative blog like it.
I agree with EV that under Tinker this is probably wrong and the students should be allowed to wear the shirts.
But I also agree with Justice Thomas that Tinker was wrongly decided and HS students shouldn’t have any first amendment rights.
Well thar was helpful.
In what way was it unhelpful? It's a perspective previously unmentioned on this thread.
I can elaborate. It was the Thomas concurrence in the BONG HITZ 4 JESUS case, he talks about how schools historically were loco parentis, places were discipline was enforced, teachers taught and students listened. In his opinion Tinker (Vietnam black armband case) and its followers went against that history and should be overturned. I found it persuasive.
Which in this situation unfortunately means that, yes, I support the school’s ability to enforce a radical leftist ideology that treats faddish notions of “gender identity” as bedrock scientific fact and dissenting views as impermissible “hate speech.” Recourse should be either use the political process to change things or pull your kid out of the school.
"...the Thomas concurrence in the BONG HITZ 4 JESUS case":
Morse v. Frederick, 551 U.S. 393 (2007)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/551/393/
Not really buying the idea that parents are voluntarily giving as much control to a local public school as when tuition hadn't been already forcibly extracted from them before they chose whether and if to enroll.
It's not just money. See:
https://www.mass.gov/juvenile-court-rules/juvenile-court-standing-order-3-21-child-requiring-assistance-proceedings
Isn't this more "Loco parentum inimicorum"?, though?
Savage - at least someone recognizes that the Left/woke/progressives are trying to impose/treat the faddish notion of "gender identity as scientific fact while ignoring basic biology and mental health
This is the correct take.
Tinker is ridiculous, but if it's still good law, it would be nice if District Court Judges follow it.
How quickly would Republicans change their tune if better students -- not the bigoted, superstitious, fledgling Federalist Society members -- wore shirts vividly explaining that Jesus and Christianity are silly fairy tales for gape-jaws; that gun nuts are compensating for serious inadequacies; and that Republicans are bigots who are being replaced by their betters?
I hate to tell you Kirkland, but the *teachers* wear shirts like that, and put up bulletin boards along those lines.
[citation needed]
Find an excuse to go tour your local high school, with a special concentration on the library. Even if the teachers/children aren't present.
If you haven't been in a public high school in this century, and I mean in the actual student spaces, you WILL BE surprised....
Still waiting on that citation.
AIDS, you dump millions of unskilled illiterate labourers into your country to serve as neo-serfs. You exploit them thus because they’re brown. You do this, rather than protect them with the (labour, health, etc) laws applicable to American citizens, because you’re racist. (Doing so all whilst publicly professing to provide those neo-serfs with the ‘American dream’). No one in the rest of the world believes that if those illegals were white you would treat them thus, or if they were black you'd even let them in en masse.
Even so, those folks don’t and won’t believe what you believe. More importantly, they breed; your folks don’t. Your evolutionarily inferior meme is moribund.
Meanwhile, here’s the retard who ‘leads’ your country.https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-65936994
That happens all the time. I'm not aware of any instance where Federalist Society students scream to shut up other viewpoints, which cannot be said of "their betters."
I would absolutely support the right of such students. I grew up in an age in which the truth was respected and that it was a liberal virtue to cultivate in one's soul a sense of tolerance.
I don’t think those are comparable examples because they target beliefs, not identity.
A better example would be like “All Culture is Immigrant Culture” or “White is Nothingness” or “PTSD is God’s Punishment of Vets” or “Nuclear Families are Radioactive” or “A Jock’s Mind Defines the Empty Set” etc.
Personally I think they’re all protected under Tinker. But I can see how schools don’t really want to devolve into tribalism (or I guess, even more overt forms of tribalism than they already suffer).
This is what happens when people who think pure speech is literal violence get appointed to federal courts. This judge does not know what the words "safe and secure" mean.
There are schools where the students are *actually* unsafe, and it's not due to words on a T-shirt. Heck, I went to a fairly safe school, and I once got hit in the head with a thrown full-size traffic cone in the locker room.
Had the shirt said, THERE ARE ONLY TWO GENDERS: GLOOF AND BLEEN the school likely would have thought it within the realm of legitimate debate.
Grue_and_bleen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_riddle_of_induction
I think the Tinker decision is misconceived.
It would be one thing if they simply banned political *discrimination* – in Tinker, I think they said that the school was selective in which political symbols they allowed students to wear.
But what if the school does its best to keep a reasonable dress code by which students aren’t allowed to wear political messages or symbols at all? I’d say that ought to be recognized as perfectly constitutional – as Justice Black said in his dissent, students are in school to learn, not to teach.
But if (hypothetically) students are allowed to sport Ukrainian flags and rainbow flags, then they should be equally allowed to express their view about how many genders there are.
As for the analysis in this two-gender decision – if the two-gender T-shirt attacks other students’ identities, consider the parallel reasoning we could use about the Tinker children and their symbolic protest against the American presence in Vietnam. That sounds like it might attack the identities of students whose fathers and brothers were fighting in Vietnam, or who had been killed there.
How about a tee shirt that states: "There are only THREE genders?" ...as long as it doesn't state what the putative third one is?
"The number of genders is not two": mild nods of approval.
"The number of genders is not even an integer": genderfluids stand up and applaud.
"The number of genders is irrational": now everyone is pissed off again.
"The number of genders is imaginary" - Depends how they take that.
Complex, really.
Yup. The real component is 2, and the imaginary component is any nonzero number.
That sounds like it might attack the identities of students whose fathers and brothers were fighting in Vietnam, or who had been killed there.
Or, with equal cogency, it might support those identities. You have assumed that people with relatives at war support the war, and that people who lost loved ones support the war. During the Vietnam War era that was an unreliable assumption. Probably during almost any war it is an unreliable assumption, but especially during wars involving conscription.
My scenario might apply in some cases, just as the scenario of the three-sex people being unusually sensitive might apply in some cases.
I think the first amendment is.clear, you can't just espouse one side of an issue and say "there that's it."
Sure you can restrict fighting words, but its pretty hard to make the case numbers are fighting words:
"there are at least 50 genders"
"there are.two.genders".
Anyone need more evidence that gender ideology is a cult?
::eyeroll::
^^^^ Un-self-aware cultist.
What else would you call an institution that punishes people for expressing the view that there are only two genders, Sarcastro? Why are you defending this?
Maybe if it was expressed as an equation"
XX=1; XY=1; XX+XY=2
I think you're a joke who loves culture war bullshit so much you forgot what a cult looks like so you can push some rhetorical wankery.
You're the one defending the government punishing children for saying that there are only two genders. Talk about culture war bullshit!
You are so into wanting to yell at me you make up what I think after I wouldn’t engage with you.
At some point you just got toxic on this shit.
Done with you and your strawmanning.
See, the potential for this sort of thing is exactly why libertarians are so adamant that it's important do rigorously define "rights".
Here, "to be secure and be let alone." is construed to prohibit allowing people to passively express views that others object to. The actual constitutional right to free speech has been replaced with a fictional right to not hear opinions you disagree with. (If the court also disagrees with them, of course.)
You aren't a libertarian, though.
Schools can ban all sorts of stuff in your book if you don't like it.
When has he argued that schools can ban student expression?
There’s nothing non-libertarian about the electorate controlling how the government acts, when it acts.
When has he argued that schools can ban student expression?
That's not what I posted.
Your attempt to change the scope of my comment is an outcome oriented one.
There’s nothing non-libertarian about the electorate controlling how the government acts, when it acts.
Sure as fuck is if that includes banning books.
No principles in the culture war, I guess.
You posted, "Schools can ban all sorts of stuff in your book if you don’t like it." Were you not referring to student expression? I mean, I think everybody agrees that schools can ban all sorts of stuff outside of the context of student expression.
"Sure as fuck is if that includes banning books."
No one's talking about banning books, we're talking about the government choosing which books it's willing to provide. And the libertarian position there is that the government shouldn't provide books, it should let people choose what books to purchase.
TWIP, when you need to equivocate this severely to make a defensible point, it's a good indication that there's something lacking in your argument.
Who's equivocating? Certainly not I.
And, of course, if those students actually have this right to be left alone which encompasses not seeing certain messages, that implies that such T-shirts *must* be banned by *every* school district, not just this one, lest student rights be violated.
Brett, since you seem to view children as mere chattel, it's not clear why you would be concerned with their freedom in any event. But you're certainly welcome to articulate a "rigorous" standard that can be applied in the public education context.
The case law on this point tries to balance students' First Amendment rights with the need to educate young children in a safe and orderly environment. Certain forms of political expression should be permitted, even encouraged - even if it might tend to be controversial. But certainly there are forms of expression that, while tolerable in the public square, would be disruptive in a school environment (e.g., chanting, marching, and sign-carrying; handing out pamphlets; etc.). This can tend to extend to content - imagine, for instance, a school newspaper publishing a factual op-ed about how "Ashley J. is a total ho."
So, there needs to be a line, it's evident it needs to be drawn differently in schools than elsewhere in public life, and it's possible it needs to be drawn even in ways that would clearly violate the Constitution elsewhere in public life. The speech featured in the OP may or may not be akin to hate speech and speech insulting people on the basis of their race, gender, religion, national origin, etc. Do you think that schools can, or should, prevent students from wearing t-shirts with racial slurs? If so, then you need to articulate what distinguishes the "two gender" shirt from that kind of speech. If not, then you need to articulate where you would draw the line, between "disruptive" in-school speech that can be controlled by the school, and other forms of free expression that it cannot control.
I guess you misunderstood my reference in another thread to "mere chattel"; I was pointing out the attitude of people towards children at the time the Bill of Rights was ratified. Reason has, of course, rendered comments unindexable, so it's not the easiest thing for me to find that remark, but, IIRC, it was in the context of 9th amendment unenumerated rights.
Whether I actually agree with that opinion (I don't.) has no bearing on it's constitutional significance.
The present topic has nothing to do with that; It's not about whether children have rights independent from their parents, but rather the extent of the rights ANYBODY might have in the speech of another.
You, adult or child, simply do not have the right not to encounter speech you find offensive.
Brett, I appreciate that it's easier to "win" arguments when you ignore complexity and pound on unassailable axioms like they're self-evident, but the point I made to you is that dogmatic adherence to an extreme reading of the First Amendment is not compatible with the educational purposes of a public school.
Now, if I were to treat you like a person who has thought about and accepts the logical implications of his positions, I would surmise that you are here embracing the possibility that schools simply can't do anything about disruptive speech, in whatever form, if the students elect to engage in it. You just have to hope that they don't. But since I know you are not the sort of person who thinks things through, I'll offer you a second opportunity to respond to my comment.
"but the point I made to you is that dogmatic adherence to an extreme reading of the First Amendment is not compatible with the educational purposes of a public school."
Yeah, so what? We've got an actual First amendment in the Constitution. Where does the Constitution call for the government to run its own school system?
You're goring yourself on both horns of the dilemma. I suspect this response is driven more by an ideological antipathy for public education - per your standing marching orders - than any kind of serious consideration of the issue. Because, of course, the slippery slope from here is a bit obvious.
What a tiresome waste of space you are.
A judge that will weaken the 1A over a stupid, harmless t-shirt makes us much less safe than any t-shirt would.
bevis, why is the 1A weakened if your employer is free to decree what you may not say at work? When has that ever been otherwise? If it has always been that way, it weakens nothing to reassert it now.
If you concede that point, what is wrong with applying it alike to other purposeful venues, where the principle works alike, and to achieve identical objectives of cooperation and efficiency?
The 1A was not written to protect private insult, calumny, defamation, fraud, racism, or other bigotries. It was written to protect from government interference the principles of the marketplace of ideas. The formerly mentioned vices get protection to keep the principles safe, not because such vices contribute positive value on their own.
Purposeful venues, including private places of employment, but also schools and colleges, may profitably enjoy in some of their activities the protection the 1A affords to the marketplace of ideas. That does not logically mean that it is always a good thing to extend 1A principles heedlessly, past the point where they work to the detriment of legitimate purposes around which those venues have been organized. It is that insight which has always backed the principle that employers may discipline the speech of their employees.
There is a tendency for some to insist that for the sake of keeping principles easy to understand, they must all be carried to their furthest extreme. From time to time, it is reasonable to pause and ask whether that must happen every time, and if so, at what practical cost?
"The 1A was not written to protect private insult, calumny, defamation, fraud, racism, or other bigotries."
Defamation and fraud are not like the others.
Yes, the 1A (w/the 14A) DOES protect from government (here the Town of Middleburgh) interference your right to express racism or bigotry, or expressions YOU insist are that. Tinker, etc., limits the protection of disruptive activities by students, but this miserable excuse for a judge is going way beyond that.
You’re a fool willing to give up your rights over stupid things like sayings on t-shirts. I don’t want people like you deciding what is hateful and what is not. Wanna live in a place where you’ll be protected from speech you don’t like move to North Korea. Nobody there gets to hurt anyone’s feelings.
But keep your paws off of our bill of rights. We don’t want them reduced by your sanctimony.
bevis, perhaps I am a fool, perhaps not. I draw reassurance from certain knowledge that Benjamin Franklin was not a fool, and between your view of rights and mine, he made it plain he favored mine. Do you suppose Franklin was sanctimonious?
Franklin wanted unpleasant speech outlawed. Right.
I know I don’t want people like you giving away my rights. I’m sure you’ll be consistent here when Trump is re-elected and outlaws labeling as Nazis people who are not registered in the Nazi party. Right? it’s a consistent principle with you? Whoever has the power decides what people are allowed to say?
Be careful what you wish for……
Bevis, no one seems to be coming for your rights, because, as far as I'm aware, no one has sought to ban "stupid speech."
“It was written to protect from government interference the principles of the marketplace of ideas.”
It was written to strip the government of the power to censor. Full stop.
That’s an important distinction, because embellishing it with the market stuff leaves open wiggle room for would-be censors who claim they’re trying to make the market more competitive, or prevent unfair competition, or correct market failures, or level a playing field, or whatever other pretext they can plagiarize from textbook socialist critiques of free markets.
"bevis, why is the 1A weakened if your employer is free to decree what you may not say at work? When has that ever been otherwise? If it has always been that way, it weakens nothing to reassert it now."
A school is not the employer of a student.
lantrop - "The 1A was not written to protect private insult, calumny, defamation, fraud, racism, or other bigotries. It was written to protect from government interference the principles of the marketplace of ideas. "
Lathrop - nor was 1A written to ban scientific fact. Two genders is a scientific fact contrary to the current pseudo science beliefs
.
Who didn’t see rulings like this coming? This sort of reasoning is already pervasive in the UK and parts of Europe.
We are already seeing police attack protestors at Pride parades, claiming the Pride marchers have a right “to dignity”. When anyone who has seen one of these knows no one there has any.
Of course we will continue to slowly slip down this slope and soon people will start getting arrested for these types of expressions, all under the rubric of “hate crimes”, “speech is violence” and other machinations created by the Left to impose authoritarian institutional control.
The FBI already l investigates garage rope, flyers that say “It’s Okay to be White”, Christians who pray at abortion clinics, parents that protect their children, and people who make claims about a Biden, how long before they are sending in 30 armed agents, helicopters, gun boats, and CNN crews at 6am to little kids houses who wore a “There are only two genders” shirt to a government school?
What was that line from the Navy lawyer movie?
Oh, Yeah.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE THRUTH!
In keeping to the principle that the solution to offensive speech is more speech, I would instead encourage students at the Middleborough schools to wear their own t-shirts with the slogan "there is only one t-shirt color" printed on rainbow-colored tie-dyed t-shirts.
I think the bigger issue is the judge buying off on the idea that speech that offends (i.e., isn’t “safe’) can be banned under the violence exception.
That guts 1A right there.
I said years ago the whole point of this "non-safe speech" and "words are violence" silliness was to use the violence exception to get rid of 1A.
Maybe if the shirt said "There are only two genders and if you disagree with me I'm going to cut your fake boobs off".
And he had a knife … so the threat would be imminent, not theoretical.
The violence exception requires imminent violence.
Would love to see this on a shirt shirt:
"No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are two. How many genders, please?'
--from the novel 2084.
Bingo!
Like asking Picard how many lights there are
Where can I send the kid a T-shirt that says "There are ONLY TWO SEXES"?
...and when you order the T-shirt be sure to check the right box under sizes M or F.
Eugene, this is like arguing that a t-shirt stating, "Born a nigger, always a nigger," is important, First Amendment-protected speech, because we need to be able to freely debate the problem of "black on black" crime.
Your transphobic and homophobic views have always been evident in your writing on those topics, to the point that I tire of reading and noting it. Like the conservatives on the Supreme Court, you believe that the validity of the lived experiences of LGBT people, and their entitlement to full and equal legal and social status, is a matter that is legitimately open to debate. And you can see the sort of company such views attract, in the comments here.
You may not view it as your fault if your posts inspire commenters to openly enthuse about killing judges. But perhaps the fact that they do can inspire you to reconsider the validity of your views.
So when will you be leaving?
Given the fact that this blog consistently re-affirms my beliefs that (i) law professors are primarily a bunch of self-involved, pseudo-intellectuals with a severe case of the Dunning-Kruger effect and (ii) most libertarians/conservatives are massive idiots, I don’t have much incentive to leave.
Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you go around using terms like pseudo-intellectual?
The existence of a line seems clear, from your example and others. It's sorta like fighting words plus.
I'd like a concrete legal standard for what kind of fact-based inquiry to make. This reads too much like a Kennedy decision to be a useful guide.
Interesting. You're among those who think it's OK to use that word if you put it in quotation marks. Would have thought you'd be on the other side.
Unlike conservatives, not everyone on my "side" thinks alike.
But no, I'm not someone who attaches near-mystical significance to the distinction between "nigger," "n*****r," or "the n-word." If you're going to use the word, use the word. The only reason I observe that distinction (when I do) is to avoid running afoul of the censors.
You think all conservatives think alike? That’s just ignorant.
It's ALL important, First amendment protected speech. Don't you get that? The whole point is that you don't get to pick and chose what other people can say, so your opinion of whether their speech is important is utterly irrelevant.
Case at bar aside, content based restrictions are not all unconstitutional.
The law is not what you think or wish it is.
He didn't say that they were.
If you don't want to say something serious, Brett, you're welcome to shut your yap.
The fact that his comments dissent from your view that you get to decide what topics are legitimately open for debate doesn't mean that they are unserious.
No, they are unserious because they are sophomoric. I didn't say they were unserious simply because we disagreed.
Moron.
Fuckface.
To be clear, is it your position that issues like biological males in women's sports and women's prisons, and at what age children can consent to various intrusive medical procedures are not legitimately open to debate, and that the government should simply punish any speech that dissents from your view?
And to think that you guys get worked up when a few states choose not to have the government provide sex books to children.
To be clear, is it your position that issues like biological males in women’s sports and women’s prisons, and at what age children can consent to various intrusive medical procedures are not legitimately open to debate, and that the government should simply punish any speech that dissents from your view?
No. The existence and moral status of LGBT people is not legitimately a point for debate. But policies regarding how society and government should accommodate LGBT people, and to what extent, are legitimately debatable, even if there happen to be "right" and "wrong" views within that debate.
And to think that you guys get worked up when a few states choose not to have the government provide sex books to children.
Again with the equivocation.
No one is questioning the existence or moral status of anyone. The fact that you have to lie about this shows that you have no argument.
And if you’re going to use words like equivocate, you should learn what it means.
No one is questioning the existence or moral status of anyone.
What is the point of saying, "There are two genders," as a kind of slogan, then?
And if you’re going to use words like equivocate, you should learn what it means.
I do know what it means. And your response here makes clear that you understand how you, yourself, employ equivocation - despite lying about doing so in another thread.
SimonP 23 hours ago
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No one is questioning the existence or moral status of anyone.
What is the point of saying, “There are two genders,” as a kind of slogan, then?
Simon P - What is the point of stating that there are only 2 genders? Perhaps because it is a scientific/biological fact that many delusional unscientific woke lack the ability to comprehend
This seems an impossible standard. Some kid is likely to feel that his identity is denied by a great number of tee shirts. What about a kid who considers believing the Bible to be his primary identity? Or a kid consumed with Marxist thot might see a capitalism tee as denying their identity. Is identity even sufficiently defined in law such that a ruling that this or that denies one's identity has any specific definition or limits, or so that we know which identities quality or do all?
The issue here is the government deciding which viewpoints are allowed to be expressed, and which aren't, and that it's on a totally BS basis is salt in the wound.
My son's new high school solves the whole issue quite simply by having a school uniform. No viewpoint discrimination at all!
OK. Let's look at some FACTS.
FACT: I stated that I hoped that security would be both present and professional during the Trump arraignment in Florida. When called on it, I stated that I suspected that there would be trouble from those who hate Trump, and that if it was handled badly, it would rapidly spiral out of control.
FACT: There was a schmuck (picture on Drudge) who jumped in front of the Trump vehicle. This was a MAJOR security issue because that vehicle can not stop because that's when it gets targeted with ordinance that could take it out.
FACT: While it's not clear that it was USSS or police who did it, reports vary, the perp was quickly yanked out of the way of the vehicle and handcuffed. That's professional -- simply running over him, which could be justified to protect the protectee, would not be.
FACT: The speed with which the perp was taken down discouraged others from trying the same stunt.
FACT: Ed was right -- the actual "trouble" came from the Anti-Trump folks.
ED WAS RIGHT....
The judge seems to be advancing a theory analogous to an eggshell plaintiff concept in torts. Because gender-queer youth are at elevated risk for mental illness and suicidality, threats to their psychic well being need to be taken especially seriously.
That ignores the ugly history of anti catholic bias in this country.
It used to be routine to require an oath repudiating trans-substantiainism to hold any office in the colonies until the constitution forbade religious tests.
Are you just going to ignore that chapter of our history?
To be clear I am not accusing you of being a pro-anti-trans-substantiainist, but you are using pro-anti-trans-substantiainist rhetoric.
You have fantasies about Black cocks, Queenie?
So, you’re a misogynist? What if that was his parents’ sexual preference? What if it was his mom’s sexual choice, as a free, independent woman? Don’t you think what you say, intended as an insult, besmirches her as a female, and as a woman? Don’t you think that shows you adhere to outdated, patriarchal, hetero-normative, Boomer values?
Queenie upthread: "Lil’ Frankie knows about closets, it’s where his dad would watch his mom get plowed by the local basketball team."
Then Queenie complains that "Yes, this is how we get trannies thrown off bridges" is the "violent fantas[y] of a puny, weird incel."
We see once again that self-awareness is not within Queenie's ambit.
Says the guy who fantasizes about others' parents having orgies??? Says the guy who just offers insults because he can never defend anything he says or believes on the merits?
Why do you pretend to be anything but a useless American child? Can't you see how much better the whole world would be if your entire culture was erased from the earth?
The eggshell plaintiff concept in torts is a theory of responsibility for unusual and unforeseeable results, but the t-shirt wearer isn't going to be a tortfeasor here absent more. The message is not remotely a threat.
IANAA, but from what I understand about eggshell plaintiffs, this is more Critical Race Theory and the belief that "bad" speech can not be permitted because of the inherent harm it will cause.
Remember the Swedish Bikini Team ads? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c2NEFPqTwY
Like, umm, that's really going to harm women working in a brewery. But 30 years ago, it was speech that had to be silenced to make these women feel "safe." Not that they were more likely to be harmed by IN-BREWERY speech, but the very different concept of safety.
You said basketball.
That's like saying grape drink, watermelon, fried chicken, mad dog 20/20, or raping white women.
We all know the association.
Nah, he's a weak troll in it for negative attention. He doesn't believe this shit.
He, more than maybe any other poster, hates being ignored.
The defendant is a school district.....
The fearful trannys supposedly being protected by the suppression of political/social opinion in this school seem to be purely imaginary.
You can't deduce what he is referring to when he says "gender ideology"?
This is why they try amd claim that "speech is violence".
Because then this message becomes a threat.
It's more than that -- look up Father John Bapts or the Charlestown (MA) convent.
That ignores the ugly history of anti catholic bias in this country.
As our nation's better voices have overcome successive waves of ignorance and intolerance, some of the beneficiaries have switched roles -- some of one period's targets (some Catholics, Italians, Irish, Jews, women, etc.) have become a later period's bigots.
What makes America great is that our bigots don't win. Not over time. And our current batch of bigots seems nothing special, destined to lose just like the predecessors in bigotry who hated Blacks, Jews, Italians, gays, Asians, women, Muslims, Hispanics, atheists, eastern Europeans, Catholics, other Asians, agnostics, the Irish, other Hispanics, etc. etc. etc.
Lots of white guys play pickup basketball, but the demographics of team basketball isn't that of hockey or even baseball.
But I wasn't expecting you to ADMIT what gets your little tranny heart all a-flutter.
You need to quit projecting your own eagerness onto others.
Your attempt to insult people thus betrays your misogyny, you childish moron.
You are confused. No tranny went to court in this case.
I think throwing people off buildings would be an overreaction to punishing people for wearing t-shirts.
Now, your thoughts on punishing people for wearing t-shirts? I think that not only is in unconstitutional, it's a shitty thing to do. What you you think?
They DO kill themselves much more often than anyone hostile to trannys kills one. That's just the way it is with the mentally diseased.
No substance only tone policing and putting on airs.
Whoosh.
Queenie confuses roofs with bridges when he's excited by the thought of being held down, his dress pulled up, and being repeatedly penetrated by basketball players' turgid members.
Defend from WHAT?!? -- hurt feelings?
I got a broken arm and three concussions in middle school --- and the trannies are complaining about others not affirming their mental illness?
Perhaps it's the others students who need to be defended from them....
"Acting to defend trans students."
You think defending trans students requires punishing people for wearing t-shirts with a rather banal, if slightly disputed, truth?
I don't think you've given your opinion about whether people should be punished for wearing t-shirts that say, "There are only two genders." What do you think?
A desperate effort at a tu quoque, Queenie? It doesn't even work: I'm always able to dismantle yours and AIDS's superficial, hypocritical claims. It's not hard to do, either.
God, you're too dumb even troll successfully. You might fool your fellow Americans, but that's about it.
I’m showing him why he’s not the future of anything, at a Darwinian level. Why his own trolling and rhetoric will bring about his, and your country’s, downfall. Don’t worry, you’re too dumb to understand.
Moral panic about people who insist that gender’s socially constructed YET somehow essential to trans’ people’s identities? You mean calling out that Orwellian doublespeak by proponents of an evolutionarily inferior meme? Why would I panic, when I know the rest of the world sees through that garbage, Baizuo? The rest of the world consciously rejects your bullshit.
Stop pretending that you’re even equal, Queenie. Your values and culture are going into the rubbish bin of history. The future of the world belongs to Asia and Africa, not you. YOUR moral panic about sex vs gender is just a silly temper tantrum before your society collapses.
Nonsense. There's nothing "vague" about noticing that insisting that there are more than two genders is adopting one side of a gender ideology debate.
Your bald assertion to the contrary doesn't make it so.
My country, moreover, is more civilized, better educated, and more cultured than yours. Your 'progressives' explicitly aim to be more like mine for a reason.
Your country, by contrast, is imploding. It's not only going to become a third-world shithole, but also a pariah state. You've discredited yourselves, even amongst your Western allies.
Stop pretending that you're equal, Queenie. You're nothing.
Wow, your delusions are really pathetic, Queenie. Your country's on the decline and you're going to lose this cold war. The world is aligning against you. Dollar hegemony will be disappearing rather soon.
You're not even remotely equal. Every day, for years, you've spent trolling a website. Whatever your motive (whether it's out of hatred, sadistic glee, or simply to drum up numbers of comments for the blog), doing so is a major part of your life. You're a total loser who CANNOT, let alone does not, do anything better. Your actions here, over a period of years, are the proof of that.
See, that really is the best you can do. It's why you're unequal, Queenie. Your life is a waste of time.
I don't know why I am responding to Marie Antoinette, whom I'm sure has never taught a 7th grade class in anything, but there are a few things that need saying.
First, teenagers are assholes. They always have been and they always will be -- it is a combination of both puberty and cognitive development.
Second, the absolute best way to get a teenager to do something is to tell him/her/it that he/she/it can't do it.
Had they simply ignored the shirt, it would have stopped being fun to wear it after a few days -- sort of like the "Coed Naked" t shirts at South Hadley (MA) high school. But now that he's been told he can't wear the 2 genders shirt, he will sit up nights thinking of ways to get around the ban, or otherwise torment trannies.
Third, while I consider the concept of "Cognitive Aggression" to be unmitigated bullshyte, the education profession does not. And while I also don't believe in little green men from outer space, I'm willing to accept that both *might* exist -- in other words, that if you suppress speech, the suppressed person may choose to express himself through violence.
NB: "Cognitive Aggression Theory" says "inevitably will" while I say "may", and they apply it to specific individuals (i.e. "minority report") while I apply it to a small number of unknown members of a larger group.
Now Marie Antoinette can lose her head as desired, but I thought I ought to explain that this isn't stuff that I am making up -- it's based on what is considered "best practices" in both K-12 and Higher Education.
Ha!!! You're so ashamed of your pathetic life and behaviour that you assume I myself must have participated on this blog for years using a prior handle in order to put me on par with yourself. In fact, I haven't.
You can also keep making bald statements and lies about your country's health, Queenie, but no in the rest of the globe believes you. Face reality.
All day, every day, cheap, groundless insults from Queenie the troll. THAT is how he spent his life, for years. What a fucking loser. Think they'll put that on your tombstone?
Ha! That MUST follow, doesn't it? Found wanting again, Queenie...
I'm heading out for the evening. Keep posting dumb stuff if it helps console you.
Yep, trolling a blog for years, providing trite bullshit... That really establishes superiority. Ha!
We're done, Queenie. You've been tested and found wanting. Shall we schedule to chat again in June 2033, when you'll no doubt still be trolling this site with superficial insults?
Again, Marie Antoinette is painfully ignorant, not realizing that there is a big difference between phobia and hatred. Or as one undergraduate once bluntly stated to me "I'm not afraid of faggots, I just want to see them all dead."
Yep, there is a difference....
Oooh... basketball. says Queenie, dreamily.
Weird that you didn't say "baseball" "chess" "yatching", "bicycling" or other White sports.
I'm detecting yours.
Noting that you are making shit up is not a "pedantic point". Your lying is pathological.
Your brains are shitty.
They are. But we don't have to let them and their enablers make a nuisance of themselves.
THAT'S LIBELOUS. I HAVE **NEVER** SAID THAT **I** WANT TO SEE **ANYONE** "DEAD"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MENTIONING THAT OTHERS HAVE TOLD ME THAT **THEY** WANT TO SEE GAYS DEAD DOES **NOT** MEAN THAT I AGREED/AGREE WITH THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I DON'T CARE HOW OBTUSE YOU WISH TO BE, BUT NEVER WROTE (OR SAID) THAT I WANT TO SEE GAYS DEAD. NEVER, EVER, EVER DID..
"Some" say all sorts of crap but that's no argument for anything.
Do you deny that trannys are a cause of death of trannys that outweighs tranny-phobes?
Ideology refers to a set of beliefs, ideas, values, or principles that form the basis of a political, economic, or social system. It provides a framework or a lens through which individuals or groups interpret and understand the world. Ideologies often encompass a wide range of topics, including but not limited to governance, economics, social issues, morality, and human nature.
Do you think what some people believe about "gender" fits that description?
Short bus, just read the thread. No one other than you imagines that “gender ideology” is a difficult concept to understand or exemplify or is bothering to have a conversation with you about it.
Throwing a homo off a bridge is something that famously happened here in the US. Throwing homos off buildings is more of a Taliban/ISIS sort of thing. But, yes, trust Queenie to get all the details wrong in the name of anti-"pedantry".
You're anonymous, Ed, can't libel you.
You should also stop posting about how they commit suicide over and over after predicting they'll get murdered as a way to oppose a case you don't like.
Some folks might take a notion.
Read the decision -- trannie suicides was part of the basis for the ruling.
That rationale does not seem to be reflected in the excerpts in the OP.
I should also note, your supposed concern for a group you insist on calling a slur is...cause for skepticism about your sincerity.
“ I gave my opinion on that hours before you posted.”
What was it? I really don’t feel like combing through a bunch of posts about black cocks to find it.
“ I also think your opinion that throwing trans people to their death because of a pro-trans court ruling would be “overreacting” but making a high school student not wear a particular shirt is “shitty” says a lot about the kinds of people involved in opposing trans rights.”
Why? Which one of those characterizations do you disagree with?
And who’s opposing trans rights here? Do you trans people have a right not to see this shirt?
"Throwing a homo off a bridge is something that famously happened here in the US. "
Yes, and for reasons I can't mention, I know a LOT of the confidential information about what really happened. What follows is all public.
It was a gay hangout/pickup spot and the 15-year-old had been sexually assaulted there earlier that evening. He, his two older male friends (and at least two girls) were drinking and driving around the streets of Bangor. The 15-year-old identified Howard as the man who had sexually assaulted him, and the three boys tossed him off the US Route 2 (state street) bridge and into the Kenduskeag Stream. The Kenduskeag is a tidal river at this point (as is the Penobscot, which it enters just beyond here) and it was low tide in late summer of a dry year -- there was only three feet of water in it and this is not a very high bridge.
Charlie Howard would have lived had he simply stood up and walked ashore, but it apparently isn't uncommon for people to panic and drown in water shallow enough to drown in.
This was in the midst of a festival celebrating the 150th Anniversary of the founding of Bangor (ME). The perps were the sons of very important parents and we were initially concerned that they'd gotten into the beer tent -- Dram Act liability, and this was 1984, before cameras, so it took a while to determine they hadn't.
And what the gay activists will never concede is that, in spite of who their parents were, those boys received the harshest sanctions available (for boys of their age) available in the State of Maine at the time. They could have murdered the Governor and there is nothing more that the state could have done to them.
Yes, there's more -- that was nearly 40 years ago, they got married and had children. And guess which team their boys are on....
Homophobia includes a fear that one, himself, is a homosexual -- that's where the word comes from. There's been talk of a so-called "gay gene" and if it exists, it would inherently be inherited.
And while there is no excuse for a 23-year-old adult to be doing ANYTHING sexual with a 15-year-old, I'd love to know what really happened down there earlier that evening, and why Howard recognized the vehicle. (Back then, Maine allowed 15-year-olds to drive...)
During the worst of Jim Crow -- and it was bad -- we didn't have a 40%-50% Black suicide rate, did we?!?
Who kills themselves because some random doesn't approve of your lifestyle?
Mentally ill people, that's who.
There IS a very high rate of suicides -- and also a very high early mortality rate. These are statistical facts.