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Jack Goldsmith on the "Not Simple" Merits Issue Before Judge Boasberg
A useful overview.
In trying to understand the many constitutional issues raised by Trump 2.0, I have found Jack Goldsmith to be a particularly informed guide. Jack's substack, Executive Functions, has become essential reading. Jack has a wide-ranging post today on the case before Judge Boasberg that has been so much in the news lately. Although the public attention on the case has covered a lot of different ground, I thought it worth flagging Jack's overview of the legal merits of how the Alien Enemies Act does—or doesn't—apply. Jack's take: On the merits, the issue is "not so simple."
The AEA provides (with emphasis added): "Whenever … any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government, and the President makes public proclamation of the event, all natives, citizens, denizens, or subjects of the hostile nation or government" who are at least 14 years old, unnaturalized, and within the United States "shall be liable to be apprehended, restrained, secured, and removed as alien enemies."
The statute further authorizes the president "to provide for the removal of those who, not being permitted to reside within the United States, refuse or neglect to depart therefrom." And it makes clear that the president is "authorized" when the statutory criteria are satisfied "to direct the conduct to be observed on the part of the United States, toward the aliens who become so liable," as well as "the manner and degree of the restraint to which they shall be subject and in what cases."
This is a very broadly worded authorization to the president in an area of the president's core constitutional power. The fact that the statute is "obscure" or old is irrelevant to the authority it confers. In the context of the TdA matter it raises at least three legal issues.
First, is TdA perpetrating, attempting, or threatening an invasion or predatory incursion against the territory of the United States within the meaning of the AEA? The president in the proclamation finds and declares that it is, and adds that "TdA is undertaking hostile actions and conducting irregular warfare against the territory of the United States both directly and at the direction, clandestine or otherwise, of the Maduro regime in Venezuela." This issue will turn on the facts and the meaning of "invasion or predatory incursion," but the "predatory incursion" criterion could be satisfied based on TdA's damaging and persistent criminal activities inside the United States.
Second, and hardest for the government, is whether the incursion (if it is that) "is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by [a] foreign nation or government." The proclamation states that TdA "is closely aligned with, and indeed has infiltrated," the "regime" of Venezuela's president, Nicolás Maduro, and is part of a "hybrid criminal state," whatever that means. A brief on appeal says that TdA is so "intertwined" in "Venezuela's state structures," that it is "a de facto arm of the Maduro regime." It adds, as an "independent rationale," that TdA is "a de facto government in the areas in which it is operating."
I do not think one can know for sure at this stage how this issue should be resolved. The administration's factual basis for its claims have been thin. Yet there are many contexts in domestic and international law where "private" individuals or organizations are deemed to be an arm of the government or state, and the president has the exclusive power to recognize states or governments. The test for whether an action is "by [a] foreign nation or government" under the AEA is, I believe, one of first impression, and will depend on the proper legal framework (there are a few possibilities), and more factual development.
The third issue, also complex, is the scope of judicial review. This is the issue that gave Judge Boasberg most pause in the Saturday hearing. The president ordinarily gets significant deference in national security contexts, especially ones related to deportation. And the Supreme Court in 1948 in Ludecke v. Watkins ruled in the context of a wartime AEA removal that the AEA precludes judicial review of at least some AEA-related presidential determinations. But as Judge Boasberg pointed out, Ludecke in footnote 17 stated that some elements of AEA removal—"whether the person restrained is in fact an alien enemy fourteen years of age or older"—are subject to judicial review. It did not bar all judicial scrutiny of presidential AEA findings.
Some national security statutes provide for presidential interpretive discretion. The 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) says that the president "determines" one element of the law's scope, and the Insurrection Act turns in part on "[w]henever the President considers" certain criteria to be triggered. The AEA contains no express delegation of interpretive power to the president. Moreover, the government acknowledges that habeas is a proper context for AEA removals. Yet Boumediene v. Bush, decided long after Ludecke, itself a habeas case, placed novel constitutional constraints on Congress's ability to limit habeas review of executive detentions. That makes it hard for the government to argue against judicial review under the AEA, at least in a properly filed habeas case.
Nothing in the above analysis speaks one way or the other to the validity of Judge Boasberg's TRO. He described it as "status quo"-preserving, and it turned primarily on the non-merits irreparable harm to the plaintiffs and the balance of the equities, both assessed at a very early stage. The government has filed a full-throated motion to vacate the TRO in the court of appeals, which will sort the matter out. My point for now is simply that, as Judge Boasberg said on Saturday, the issues on the merits (including the scope of judicial review) "are not easy issues."
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You'd think the government already had the necessary facts before doing something so drastic. And would have presented them to the judge.
Trump's modus operendi is shot first, ask questions later. Why should this case be different?
This is not a FISA application. The AEA allows the president to act unilaterally. The judge entered a TRO here without even hearing from the government.
Yes. "I want to summarily execute X, on behalf of our govt."
Court: Um, we're gonna put a hold on that. There's no eraser that can correct that, after-the fact, if we allow the execution to go forward today. Okay, now that we've put a hold on this "no going back" aspect, let's hear from both sides, with full briefing.
Bored,
Do you disagree that this is, procedurally, the correct approach? I mean, suppose appellate courts and SCOTUS later agree that these thugs should *not* have been flown out of the country without first getting due process, but we now can't actually get them back. What is the remedy for them? What is the legal redress?
Executing X is in fact irreversible. Deporting X is not. If the government deports you, then loses its case in court, you get to return (and maybe get some monetary damages to cover the inconvenience). Painful maybe but not irreversible.
I thought the government's position in this case was that as soon as the person is deported, the court lacks jurisdiction, so the court cannot then order the person returned.
But they can always return of their own accord, and if the court is on their side they get to stay. And presumably get their return flight cost (or bus fare) reimbursed.
But with execution, not so much.
Always? What does it take to walk out of CECOT of one's own accord? CECOT prisoners do not receive visits and are never allowed outdoors. The prison does not offer workshops or educational programs to prepare them to return to society after their sentences. Seems like leaving there might be tricky.
I suppose if Trump paid for the 1 year term on a per-head basis, and stopped paying for some particular prisoner, then maybe they could leave? Trump probably got a bulk rate on the whole lot. Any of those dudes seeing the light of day within the next year is probably unlikely.
Do you suppose Trump has a Congressional appropriation to pay for incarcerating people in CECOT?
Um, hello?!? These people aren't being sent back to their home countries to live with their parents; they're being sent to a prison in El Salvador. They cannot "return of their own accord" or at all.
"They're being sent to a prison in El Salvador"
Thank you for flying Fuck Around airlines. We've just arrived at sunny Find Out.
To paraphrase Johnny Utah in one of the best movies of all time, Point Break, "they're not coming back."
That may be in the record somewhere -- and I'd appreciate a cite if so -- but the only territoriality-related position they've taken that I'm aware of (most recently here) is that once a deportee crosses the border, they're removed from the US and thus no longer subject to an injunction prohibiting removal.
That's not based on jurisdiction, but the specific acts enjoined by the TRO (the written rendition, which is the second prong of their argument).
Correct.
According to the government, the deed was already done.
Deportation has never been an "irreparable harm" but okay
Even if the action at issue were deadly use of force, there are many instances of the Executive using deadly force within its Constitutional authority where it would be absurd to engage courts for permission. What can be decided here, due to risk of repetition, is whether that claim of authority is valid. A judge trying to order planes to turn around is somewhat mental or at least confused about his chosen career path.
False. The government had a lawyer at the hearing.
Equity was my lowest grade in law school but I think you can get a TRO without notice and a hearing. It's not a requirement.
Sometimes a litigant can get such a TRO, but special and more stringent procedures apply. Fed.R.Civ.P. 65(b) states:
When has deportation ever been "irreparable injury" to justify a TRO?
What is the best argument that being sent to prison in a foreign country where one has no constitutional rights is not an irreparable injury?
The TRO wasn't to prevent them from being imprisoned, it was to prevent them from being deported. Now, back to my question.
Not a serious response.
The two are one and the same.
You’d think the judiciary would recognize the limits of its Art. III power and show more respect to the President, the only constitutional actor in this nonsense to actually be vested with the Executive power. Something is decidedly rotten in the judiciary, particularly in the DC circuit.
You unitary executive fetishists always sound so ridiculous. The fact of the matter is, at the most simple level, the Alien Enemies Act is a statute passed by Congress and statutes - even those delegating broad authority to the executive to act - are ALWAYS subject to judicial review. Congress makes laws, the executive enforces laws and the Courts interpret laws including this one.
Spank me harder Daddy is not a legal argument.
You'd think the president would recognize the limits of its Article II power and show more respect to the courts, the only constitutional actor in this nonsense to actually be vested with the judicial power.
On your second point, I have no knowledge of how connected this group is to the government of Venezuela. But the use of clandestine groups by governments to wage war-like activities against other countries is a well-known occurrence. Iran is a backer of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. If Iran sent a group of terrorists to conduct operations on American soil, then the AEA would certainly apply.
EXACTLY!
If Venezuela is doing this, I would expect some modicum of proof. Even Biden supporters will concede he massaged facts, if not lied. If Trump supporters concede the same...
Frankly, if a president wants to go to war, or thinks we are at war, he should present supporting evidence.
I have no knowledge of how connected this group is to the government of Venezuela. But
Lotta this going around.
Why focus on on just Section 21 of the AEA as if that was all there was? Section 22 provides specific limits on the President’s power to restrain enemy aliens (at least non-criminal ones), and Section 23 explicitly provides for judicial review. Why ignore them?
The post seems to do that. It refers to Section 21 only and then goes directly to case law for questions of removal power and judicial review, as if the AEA didn’t have explicit text in the next 2 sections each covering exactly these 2 points, and as if a President is entitled to cherry-pick out selected text that appears, in isolation, to favor his position, and just pretend the rest doesn’t exist.
I don’t think the AEA applies. But assuming for purposes of argument that ot does, how in the world can Trump’s lawyers possibly argue that spiriting these aliens out in the middle of the night with no warning or hearing gave these aliens either the “reasonable” time to dispose of their affairs and voluntarily leave, “consistent with national hospitality and humanity, that section 22 requires, or the judicial enforcement that Section 23 requires?
I mean, Section 23 explicitly gives the judiciary jurisdiction and says it’s the judiciary’s job to order the removal of enemy aliens. The President’s power is limited to just making the proclamation and setting the conditions. How in the world can an argument that the judiciary has no jurisdiction over the matter even be non-frivolous given the language of Section 23?
What relevance do hypothetical constitutional questions about what would happen if Congress foreclosed judicial review have to this matter given Section 23’s explicit grant of judicial jurisdiction?
Given Congress’ plenary power over aliens, I think it could have given the President a lot more discretion and foreclosed judicial review if it wanted to. But it DIDN’T.
I don't read it that way. Section 21 says:
The President is authorized in any such event, by his proclamation thereof, or other public act, to direct the conduct to be observed on the part of the United States, toward the aliens who become so liable; the manner and degree of the restraint to which they shall be subject and in what cases, and upon what security their residence shall be permitted, and to provide for the removal of those who, not being permitted to reside within the United States, refuse or neglect to depart therefrom; and to establish any other regulations which are found necessary in the premises and for the public safety.
That's more than just issuing a proclamation.
Section 23 does provide for a judicial order of removal, but that seems to be in addition to Section 21. And it's not review of what the president did, but an order of removal.
That's right. Section 23 hearings do not apply to removal by the President under Section 21. The statute does not provide any hearings or really any due process protections for those impacted by Section 21 removals. Such protections may arise as a constitutional matter but are not in the statute.
Case law supports my position.
U.S. ex rel. Schlueter v. Watkins, 158 F.2d 853, 853 (2d Cir. 1946)
(It is interesting that Section 23 can be invoked by a private citizen. Wonder if it ever has been.)
"except on the issue of whether or not the relator actually is an alien enemy"
Which is, to put it gently, highly contested in this case.
It’s like saying that the courts can’t review the bureau of prisons’ decisions about the disposition of criminals except to decide whether the person is a criminal. Let’s just say that that minor-seeming question is what criminal cases are all about. This is similar.
ReaderY 9 hours ago
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"Which is, to put it gently, highly contested in this case."
What part is contested - that they are illegal aliens, that they are part of large organized criminal gangs?
All of them contest that they are enemy aliens within the meaning of the Act.
Some of them claim that they have no connection with this gang.
Some of them claim that they have never committed a crime in the United States and Section 22 applies; even if they have some tenuous connection to the gang, Section 22 of the AEA makes clear that merely being a subject of an enemy country or government does not by itself make one a danger to the peace or subject to immediate removal.
Yes. And that the AEA applies to this supposed gang.
At least on the Internet you're...not a very good lawyer.
Pretty bold assessment from someone washed out of law nearly a decade ago.
Ludecke v. Watkins, 335 U.S. 160, 163–65, 68 S. Ct. 1429, 1430–31, 92 L. Ed. 1881 (1948)
Bored Lawyer — Do you assert that no power of review exists to determine whether a state of war exists to justify use of the AEA? If so, how would that not be equivalent to an unlimited power for the President to deport anyone at all, at any time?
As stated by numerous others, the statute does not require a state of war
As stated by numerous others, the statute does not require a state of war
Joe_dallas, whatever numerous others state, that looks like a stone-cold Constitutional loser for Trump. Given the other powers the AEA grants, it would indeed mean Trump could deport anyone at all, at any time—which is, thankfully, a Constitutional impossibility.
To support that is to support totalitarianism. Why would you do that?
Stephen Lathrop : "To support that is to support totalitarianism. Why would you do that?"
Because Joe_dallas doesn't give a damn about this country, its constitution, its core principles, or its freedoms. All he cares about is MAGA entertainment from a reality-TV-show president and gleefully screwing-over people with brown skin. Everything is secondary to those two priorities.
SL - if your are going to make an argument , then you could at least stick with applicable facts .
Joe_dallas — Permit me to attempt the near-impossible, to help you. "Applicable facts," is a term to imply potentially falsifiable assertions, presented with sufficient provenance to let others make independent evaluations about truth or falsehood.
If you know of any of those, why not cite them now?
Totalitarian? You off your meds?
Per the MAGA Nazis here, the president can pick any random country in the world, claim that this country is invading the U.S. based on the purported existence of a single person from that country in the U.S. who has committed a crime in the U.S., grab any random person off the street, claim that this person is part of this invasion, and rendition him to a foreign country without a hearing. Hard to get much more totalitarian than that without actually just murdering him.
You sure you're not talking about Obama's drone strikes?
These guys are illegal aliens--so it's not "random guy off the street."
But while we are on the subject of totalitarianism--gotta love Xavier Becerra threatening prosecution of press members when they are conducting constitutionally protected activity. I don't want to hear thing one from any Dem or Dem affiliate about totalitarianism given that you all were cool with that.
How do you know?
(You do realize that the AEA has nothing to do with immigration status, right? Only citizen or non-citizen.)
As for your feeble attempt at a whatabout, I'm not a member of the audience for the MAGA Cinematic Universe so I have no idea what it refers to.
You're being disingenuous. What Ludecke says that an enemy alien can't challenge in court is whether he deserves to be deported. Ludecke couldn't say, "Well, the war's basically over, and I'm a good person, so the president shouldn't be permitted to remove me." But Ludecke expressly says that judicial review is available to challenge (a) the interpretation of the statute; (b) the existence of a declared war; and (c) whether the person is actually an enemy alien. Ludecke, 335 U.S. at 171, and n.17.
Section 22 expressly says that it only applies where the person "is not chargeable with actual hostility, or other crime against the public safety." These gang members certainly are not covered by Section 22.
I respond to your Section 23 issue above (or below, this commenting system is for the birds.)
The administration had conceded that many of them had never committed a crime in the United States. Section 22 applies.
They're illegal aliens.
How do you know?
Commenter_XY 4 hours ago
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They're illegal aliens.
David Nieporent 3 hours ago
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How do you know?
Did any one of them provide a copy of their visa?
Did any one of them provide their social security number ?
Did anyone of them provide their DL number.
ICE / law enforcement has access to all that data, so its not hard to cross check
So your argument is "I don't know, but I trust the government? But only when it goes after brown skinned people, not when it goes after Trump supporters?"
Try asking yourself this: if in fact the government had all the evidence to establish that these people were deportable, why did it rush to do so rather than just waiting for a hearing?
You are the one repetitively disputing the they are illegal aliens in spite of knowing how easy it is for ICE to verify
I am asking how you know they are.
At some point, you have to trust what the government is saying.
In fact, I do not. That's why we have hearings before neutral magistrates before we allow the government to deprive them of life, liberty, or property.
David Nieporent : "How do you know?"
It's better entertainment if they are. Commenter_XY is all about the entertainment, Constitution be damned.
And who here believes this administration did ANY due diligence on whether these people met the criteria by which they were "disappeared"? Not the legal process required under law, but any due diligence whatsoever. This is a White House brainlessly firing thousands of people without any thought, analysis, or process. On multiple occasions they've needed to do an emergency rehire due to their crude bungling. And administration economic policy shows no more thought than decisions made by the blindfolded throwing darts. Everywhere is mindless chaotic stunts.
To believe they actually cared whether these people fit the criteria by which they were deported is naive. To think they actually worked to verify that criteria more so still. This was a power play & PR stunt. Whether some or any of the deportees were "drug gang members" is no more than random chance. After all, MAGA-types like XY and Joe_dallas don't care if the charges are unsubstantiated or fabricated. This is all TV-viewing entertainment to them.
They may be illegal aliens, but they claim they are not enemy aliens and are entitled to a hearing to show that they are not and the AEA does not apply to them. And even if they are and it does, Section 22 of the AEA entitles them to a reasonable time to settle their affairs and voluntarily depart.
The substantive aspects of the case may be complex, but the procedural aspects are very straightforward, and the plaintiffs here clearly had no standing, and the court had no jurisdiction.
The only proper course for judicial review under the Alien Enemies Act is a habeas petition, not the sort of bogus "class action" pre-enforcement mess this thing was. A habeas action was available to any of the now-deportees or to any individuals currently detained under the presidential proclamation against members of Tren de Aragua. At that habeas proceeding, a detainee can make any related claims about infirmities in the proclamation or the Act itself. This was spelled out in Ludecke v. Watkins (1948), the Supreme Court's last pronouncement on the AEA as well as any number of lower court cases, including those of the D.C. Circuit.
EXACTLY!
That is what habeas is for, and absent that, the judge should be told to pound sand.
The complaint invokes 28 USC 2241, authorizing writs of habeas corpus. I think the facts take this case outside of the statute.
The detainees are outside of US jurisdiction. That is why a TRO was appropriate, because there could be no relief after they were turned over to El Salvador.
If the detainees were outside U.S. jurisdiction, then they were already removed from the United States.
They were not outside US jurisdiction at the time of the order. They were then taken outside of the US in violation of the order.
That word does not mean what you think it means.
Nor does that one.
This was a habeas petition, moron.
Not if the government hurriedly snuck them out of the country and into the custody of another country before their petition could be adjudicated. Which is why the court issued a TRO to prevent them from being so removed.
This is why we need due process, to work out these issues before you send people to brutal prisons in non-party countries.
Where was the due process for Laken Riley?
Are you Ted Cruz? Captain non-sequitur over here.
How could any form of originalism read the AEA as being applicable to a gang or any other non-state actor, however evil or violent?
There are claims that TdA is a Venezuela state actor.
Claims that should be tested in court. It is not for the executive branch to unilaterally and definitively (ie without judicial review) re-define the original public meaning of a Founding-era law. Or any other law for that matter.
Sez who?
John Marshall.
I didn't know that he thought that jurisdiction was magically granted every time there was a dispute over the lawfulness of something. I thought Marbury v. Madison held the exact opposite. My bad.
The list of things you don't know is quite large, but the question asked was unrelated to what you just said; it was who said that it was "not for the executive branch to unilaterally and definitively (ie without judicial review) re-define the original public meaning of a Founding-era law. Or any other law for that matter."
The legal issues are important but how to put out a fire in your house also is not just an "interesting question." It has to be put out and if an arsonist is in the act of setting it on fire, that is the most compelling issue. He deals with that too.
Below are thoughts, in light of these events, about where we are in the dangerous power struggle between the Trump administration and the federal judiciary that is being waged at the judicial level but also quite aggressively at the political level.
The Administration has a "thin" record and is most concerned with power plays:
The Trump administration at its highest level seems less interested in factual and legal showings under the AEA than it is in vindicating a broad view of executive authority vis a vis courts, and in achieving big political wins.
This includes -- and this is from a conservative who on executive issues will support more discretion than is warranted IMHO --
First as for compliance, the government is playing games that verge on defiance.
Also "political hardball" is used including a "ludicrous" claim he should be removed from the case & "viciously and making a political spectacle out of his decisions." His border czar [also known for his appearance with Mayor Adams] counsels defiance
“We’re not stopping. I don’t care what the judges think — I don’t care what the left thinks. We’re coming.”
As usual, he suggests the prudential problems with such a hardball strategy as he did during the Bush years:
Yet the administration’s open disrespect toward and aggressive political attacks on lower court judges will surely have a negative impact on the way that some and maybe most Supreme Court Justices approach the legal issues coming to the Court.
Ordinarily the question of war would be a simple one out in the open. When a hybrid actor is alleged, as in this case, sensitive intelligence information could be important factually. If spies and communications intelligence revealed a foreign government role the American government would not want that in the open. When designating a foreign terrorist organization, the government is authorized by statute to share classified information with the judge and not make it available to the designated terrorists. I know of no authorized procedure for trying a habeas case when the petitioner does not have access to evidence. The Trump administration could fall back on the state secrets doctrine. If you sue the government and the government doesn't want to reveal sensitive information, you lose.
Would a judge not have a process by which he/she could hear and consider the merits of such sensitive information "en camera" (hoping I'm using that term correctly)?
If President Trump believes that the nation or government of Venezuela is perpetrating, attempting, or threatening an invasion or predatory incursion against the territory of the United States, why has he not asked Congress for a declaration of war?
Do Presidents need Congress's permission to defend US territory from an outside attack?
defend US territory from an outside attack
Is this a hypo, or an actual story about current events you're trying to sell?
Leave it to Sarcastr0 to assume bad faith in his first response.
I'm not in the mood for your antics today.
I did not assume an answer to my question; was it a hypothetical or not?
You're not weaseling your way out of this one.
Approach people with a modicum of respect and you shall get it in return. Approach people with backhanded insults and you should not expect to receive a good-faith response.
Listen, if you are going to say that this is about the President defending from an outside attack, I'm going to point out you're full of shit.
You've taken the position that the President doesn't need to provide evidence of anything he (or you) make up. So yeah, you're going to get dragged.
You're the one that said this judge had a tantrum, right? So maybe shut the fuck up about assuming good faith.
And I'm hardly the only one to take you for task for assuming facts wildly not in evidence to get you where you want to go outcome-wise.
The question is--who gets to make the call. Looks like the President does.
"If. You've taken. You're going to. You're the one. Shut the fuck up. Taking you to task."
I see that you went from pretending to be having an honest discussion to 'yeah, I was never intending to be reasonable' in two comments.
Far from "taking me to task," you've done none of the things you set out to do in your little troll attempt. I bet you're mostly mad that I called you out right away instead of getting sucked down into your faux commentary that you enjoy.
Finally, just so you're clear as to my feelings on the matter: Judge Boasberg is a whiny little bitch for complaining on Monday that the government took certain steps before his first hearing on Saturday and before any TRO existed, period. Parties are not obliged to follow orders that do not exist.
"Do Presidents need Congress's permission to defend US territory from an outside attack?"
A declaration of war is the exclusive province of Congress, per Article I, § 7 of the Constitution. That is why the second President Roosevelt immediately asked for a declaration of war in the wake of the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
I don't see how that answers my question.
Using the Pearl Harbor example: the US did not declare war until Dec 8th, but the attack occurred on December 7th. Was the military action taken to defend Pearl Harbor on December 7th unconstitutional? Why or why not?
My own view is that the President retains plenary authority to defend US territory from attack even without a declaration of war, but I'm curious as to your views on this.
I really dislike this repeated use of the word "plenary." I do think the president can order the armed forces to defend the U.S. without a declaration of war. I do not think the president can randomly declare any thing or person he dislikes an "invasion."
I have plenary authority to say plenary. Plenary.
Who determines what an invasion is then?
Congress? Courts?
Plenary.
So he can do whatever he feels like he needs to do, as long as he doesn't state the reason? That seems like a rather perverse incentive.
That would be a weird interpretation of what I said.
Tylertusta, how long do you think Tren de Aragua has been operating in the United States? If that criminal gang is in fact the "nation or government" of Venezuela, President Trump has had ample time to ask Congress for a declaration of war.
I don't know.
Please answer my question.
The question being "Do Presidents need Congress's permission to defend US territory from an outside attack?"
Not right away. But per 50 U.S.C. § 1452:
The War Powers Act requires the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30-day withdrawal period, without congressional authorization for use of military force (AUMF) or a declaration of war by the United States.
Set aside the text of the War Powers Act for a moment. Congress clearly thinks that it can impose conditions even though all subsequent Presidents say otherwise.
The Pearl Harbor example is a good one to use for our discussion since it predated the WPA's enactment.
Was the defense of Pearl Harbor unconstitutional?
The question doesn't even make a lot of sense; do you think FDR gave an order to the sailors at Pearl to defend themselves when the attack began? Or did they just exercise their natural right to engage in self defense?
But if FDR had ordered retaliation without Congressional authorization, that would indeed have been unconstitutional.
But if FDR had ordered retaliation without Congressional authorization, that would indeed have been unconstitutional.
That's a distinctly minority view.
In the lead up to the Pearl Harbor attack, the FDR administration and through the CNO issued orders that they believed some kind of attack was imminent and that commanders should undertake a "defensive deployment."
So, yes. The Navy was quite literally given orders to defend Pearl Harbor, albeit a preemptive one.
I think this is a silly tangeant, but I think it'll be fun:
Does the natural right of self-defense encompass the launching of fighters to shoot down other planes, as a dozen or so aircraft did? Does the aviators have a duty to retreat, so those fighters should have attempted to escape and only fire in self-defense?
What about when the Japanese aircraft started returning to their carriers? Was shooting AA guns at them as a torpedo bomber released its torpedo no longer natural self defense because it was no longer a threat?
Does this mean that- in your view- the 'Neutrality Patrols' that FDR undertook in 1941 were unconstitutional?
Something spicy happen in the open thread this morning? I know I saw it in the feed earlier, but now it seems to be nuked.
Noticed the same thing.
was the Alien Enemies Act applied?
No kidding -- talk about removal without due process....
David Nieporent defended himself as not being pedantic, and then mistakenly replied to his own remark explaining why that wasn't so.
The thread immediately ate itself.
OK, you win the internet today for that one.
In construing the enemy alien act, I think we have to keep in mind the German precedent. Jews were stripped of citizenship, and thereby made aliens, by the Nuremburg laws. They were proclaimed enemy aliens when war broke out under the Weimar equivalent of fhe Enemy Alien Act. And these legal formalities then entitled the Germans ro intern and deport them. The death camps were made formally outside German territory so as far as what Germany legally did, everything was completely kosher. They were deported to places that were formally speaking no longer their responsibility (or war zones where there was no law in effect), just as Trump has deported these aliens to be interned in camps in El Salvador where we have no responsibility for what happens.
I think this histroy suggeste caution in construing the American AEA. It does not by its terms abolish judicial review. It imposes several limitations on the Executive. Not only do they have to actually be enemy aliens, but under Section 22 they cannot be immediately removed unless they are actually criminals or an actual danger to public safety. I think this means the President’s say-so on all of these points - are they in fact enemy aliens? Are they in fact criminals? - is subject to judicial review.
As has been noted above, these aliens applied for a writ of habeas corpus, but instead of producing the bodies as a warden is directed to do, the Trump administration spirited them out of the country. This warranted a restraining order to enable the habeas corpus proceeding to proceed.
I have written elsewhere that aliens don’t have a constitutional right ro enter or remain in this country. But the ultimate decider is Congress, not the President. Statutory rights are ordinarily enforcible rights. When Congress grants the President limited discretion, the President has to abide by the limits Congress set. And unless Congress explicitly strips courts of jurisdiction, courts get to decide whether those limits have been exceeded.
This is in keeping with my general view that although courts should exercise restraint in creating atextual rights, and should avoid accusing people who disagree with them of animosity, nonetheless textual rights should be given a liberal rather than a cramped construction.
Wait, section 21 of AEA requires a Presidential declaration, which POTUS Trump did. Once that declaration was made, that instantiated the rest of the law. Under section 24, that is enough.
§24. Duties of marshals
When an alien enemy is required by the President, or by order of any court, judge, or justice, to depart and to be removed, it shall be the duty of the marshal of the district in which he shall be apprehended to provide therefor and to execute such order in person, or by his deputy or other discreet person to be employed by him, by causing a removal of such alien out of the territory of the United States; and for such removal the marshal shall have the warrant of the President, or of the court, judge, or justice ordering the same, as the case may be.
Beyond the courts saying, yeah there was a proclamation, this alien is over 14, and from the country named in the predatory incursion, there isn't much else for them to do, under section 23.
§23. Jurisdiction of United States courts and judges
After any such proclamation has been made, the several courts of the United States, having criminal jurisdiction, and the several justices and judges of the courts of the United States, are authorized and it shall be their duty, upon complaint against any alien enemy resident and at large within such jurisdiction or district, to the danger of the public peace or safety, and contrary to the tenor or intent of such proclamation, or other regulations which the President may have established, to cause such alien to be duly apprehended and conveyed before such court, judge, or justice; and after a full examination and hearing on such complaint, and sufficient cause appearing, to order such alien to be removed out of the territory of the United States, or to give sureties for his good behavior, or to be otherwise restrained, conformably to the proclamation or regulations established as aforesaid, and to imprison, or otherwise secure such alien, until the order which may be so made shall be performed.
What am I missing, ReaderY.
Here is a link to the complete text of the law
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/chapter3&edition=prelim
Among other things, Section 22 entitles non-criminal enemy aliens to a reasonable amount of time to settle their affairs and voluntarily depart.
More fundamentally, they are all entitled to petition for a writ of habeas corpus to assert that they are not enemy aliens at all. The Act has a definition of what an enemy alien is. The President can’t just declare anyone to be an enemy alien on his say-so.
Not quite. The Chelmo camp was in territory that Germany had formally annexed from Poland.* Not that it mattered to the Nazis, of course. The Nazis didn't officially recognize that the death camps existed, so there was no worry about the legalities of things that they said wasn't happening.
They also didn't recognize that Poland existed, or that the Polish existed, for that matter.
*Formally from the Nazi perspective. The rest of the world did not recognize the Nazis' claims to that territory.
For those of you who say you didn't vote for Elon Musk, I didn't vote for Boasberg or Roberts.
Boasberg and Roberts were both formally nominated by the POTUS and confirmed by the Senate, both of whom people elected.
The formal appointment and confirmation process is an important constitutional rule.
And Elon Musk was not.
Joe murdered Barry. Barry murdered Billy. Therefore, Joe murdered Billy. This is how the transitive property works in your world?
I appreciate you aren't saying just one thing all the time now.
But, this doesn't make much sense.
As the Rolling Stones would say "It's all over now"
https://www.wnd.com/2025/03/trump-pushes-to-impeach-troublemaker-judge-as-major-conflict-of-interest-is-discovered/
This is maybe the worst abuse of power by a judge in my lifetime. Trump 1 Boasberg -10
A restraining order to ensure a warden can in fact produce a body for a writ of habeas corpus proceeding to proceed is well within the judicial power, and is in no way an abuse of it. This “abuse of power” nonsense is pure propaganda, an assuault on the rule of law that is at the core of our constitutional order. The write to petition for a writ of habeas corpus is one of the most basic rights our constitution has.
It was the Trump administration that acted lawlessly here. It interfered with a lawful habeas corpus proceeding by disposing of the corpus rather than producing it before the court, as every respondent of a habeas corpus proceeding is required to do.
Um, once the planes were outside of the USA, the court had no power to order their return, and the written order is what controls. I trust you read the government's brief. How do you address those cases?
Um, that is bullshit. The location of the planes is irrelevant to the court's authority. It should be noted that the MAGA non-lawyers making this nonsensical claim are distorting the Trump administration's arguments because they don't understand any of this law stuff and are just repeating talking points. The government's claim is not that the court lacked authority once the planes were over international waters, but that the text of the written form of the court's order didn't apply as phrased.
Um, you should take that up with Judge Boasberg--he himself said that there was little he could do once they were out of the country.
And I understand the litigation position of the Administration. They want to make it clear that they weren't violating the judge's order. I should have made myself clearer--a court has no legitimate authority to order the government to admit an alien from without the US. But if it does, then I guess the government has to appeal. Or maybe not, lol.
Ah, I see we've moved on to a shiny new "lawless administration" theory now that the prior one is in smoldering ruins. I take it this one relies on the unbriefed, snap-of-his-totally-not-a-king-fingers "class certification" concurrent with the second TRO?
A question for those who claim that the employment of a judge's adult offspring poses a conflict of interest for that judge.
Should Justice Antonin Scalia have recused himself in Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000), because his son's law firm represented the petitioner? If so, SCOTUS would have deadlocked 4-4, the Florida Supreme Court's ruling would have stood, and twenty-first century history could have been very different.
I of course agree with your general point, but I think one can conjure up a hypothetical set of facts in which a judge's child's work could constitute a conflict of interest. But that's clearly not this set of facts. His daughter doesn't get paid more if he rules a certain way in this case.
"As the Rolling Stones would say 'It's all over now'"
Whom did you used to love?
[Removed]
The larger problem is that there are millions of illegals in this country. What the Democrat-legal complex wants to do is create a so many conditions to deportations to make it the reality that if someone gets here, they generally can stay. All this stuff about TdA and the so-called complex legal issues really boil down to one issue--who gets to make the call? I can't believe that AEA was drafted with the idea that the federal judiciary gets to resolve every single case.
Also, the arrogance of this judge seems to know no bounds. He's mad because the government got the deportations moving even though he was having his precious hearing. And the order to turn the planes around? And all for what, to protect a bunch of illegal alien gang members? Why? Courts just have to realize that, at some point, there's nothing they can do.
Trump is going to win this political fight. And by the way, how in the world can this judge throw anyone in jail for contempt? He let Clinesmith off even though Clinesmith completely perverted the legal process.
Ahh yes. There's an ends I like so the means seem good to me!
When you start with the personal attacks on judges, it's pretty clear where you're actually coming from.
Maybe if you preemptively declare victory for Trump one more time, you'll really bring it home. Just who are you trying to convince, anyhow?
That's not a fair criticism of what I have to say. Judges are like any other person exercising political power--they can, and they should be, ruthlessly criticized.
From a law thingy standpoint, the judge has absolutely no right to expect that the mere fact that he had scheduled a hearing meant that the government somehow had to pause its efforts. And his haranguing of the DOJ attorneys is completely unseemly. In a world without this goofy idea of lese-majeste when it comes to judges, the DOJ attorneys could have basically told the judge he was completely out of bounds. In this case, the judge deserves to be attacked.
Moreover, it seems to me that the judge was playing games--if the Administration obeyed the brutum fulmen that was his oral order, then he could point to the written order and say that the oral order was superseded.
The "turn the planes around" order was also silly. He had no idea of the fuel status of the planes, etc. etc. And as he acknowledged, there was not much he could do once the aliens were no longer in the USA.
Now Roberts has decided to get in this fight. I don't think it's a winner for him or the federal judiciary.
I agree. They're trying to create a morass that seeks to effectively change policy by sapping the 'energy' needed to enforce the law.
Groups that oppose to the death penalty use similar tactics.
I'm not so sure he will. There's too much invested in opposing Trump to allow judges to sign off on the mass deportation of illegally present aliens.
I think he will.
Judge Boasberg has ordered that that by noon today:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69741724/jgg-v-trump/?filed_after=&filed_before=&entry_gte=&entry_lte=&order_by=desc#minute-entry-419399702
That suggests to me that a criminal contempt proceeding may be in the offing.
The Defendants have sought a stay of the order. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.278436/gov.uscourts.dcd.278436.37.0_2.pdf If, however, the government simply refuses to comply, the judge would be well within his right to jail some officials and/or DOJ attorneys for civil contempt (which the President cannot pardon) until they do comply.
I saw some talk about a hypothetical where the President can direct the removal the officials / attorneys from the case, thus negating any civil contempt against them.
I don't think it's likely to get to that point, but I was interested in your thoughts on it.
Once an attorney has entered an appearance in a case, it is up to the court whether that attorney can withdraw. (Even if the client wants to fire the attorney.) I do not think any court, already outraged at the government's defiance, would let them play shell games like that.
That may apply to DOJ attorneys, but they probably don't have the answers that the judge seeks anyways. What about other DOJ officials and non-DOJ officials?
If the judge wants to play hardball, he could probably subpoena some people. DC Circuit would likely uphold. Who knows what SCOTUS would do.
Eric Holder's defiance should come back to bite people here.
Interestingly, one of the DOJ attorneys just filed a notice (not motion) of withdrawal. That definitely should help calm Boasberg down.
"I saw some talk about a hypothetical where the President can direct the removal the officials / attorneys from the case, thus negating any civil contempt against them."
If President Trump wants to fire Pam Blondie, far be it from me to tell him not to.
That having been said, as David observed the attorneys cannot withdraw from the case without leave of court. The judge's civil contempt authority runs all the way up the food chain in each executive department.
When Hyman Roth said to Michael Corleone "I never asked who gave the order, because it had nothing to do with business," he was lying.
Do the attorneys of record have any reason to withdraw? They may not have enough authority to be in contempt. If they tell Pam Bondi "Judge Boasberg orders you to flap your wings and cluck like a chicken" their job is done. It's not their fault if she refuses to do so.
NG, Biasberg can schedule a trial for criminal contempt, and jail DOJ officials for civil contempt. I would actually like to see him attempt to do just that.
The trial would make for spectacular TV viewing. I assume we'd want the trial televised so we can see the bailiff slap the cuffs and leg irons on Bondi, Bove and anyone else Biasberg tries, and drag them off for a 1-2 mile perp walk with cameras rolling.
Yeah, and then he's going to get pilloried for giving Clinesmith no jail time. Boasberg didn't give a shit about Clinesmith's abuses. He's a POS.
What did the sentencing guidelines say about Clinesmith's offense? Do you know? Do you care? Do you even know what sentencing guidelines are?
Yeah, I know what the sentencing guidelines are. The facts here are pretty damning--Clinesmith, in an ex parte filing, doctored evidence submitted to a court in order to obtain a warrant on a free citizen. This was a disgusting crime committed by a member of law enforcement. If there were a way to do it, Clinesmith should have spent decades in prison.
Remember that animal that leaked Trump's tax returns---I am sure that the sentencing guidelines don't say a word about improper election interference, but the court so found. And kudos to the judge (an Obama appointee, IIRC) for maxing him out.
Careful, now -- the notion of what happens when a judge orders US marshals to arrest the head of the DOJ may lead to the same sort of singularity that blew up the open thread.
"Judge Boasberg has ordered that that by noon today..."
What is the requirement for the short fuse on this request? Nothing is "pending," the action has already occurred. Judge Boasberg is begging for a supervisory spanking and to have this case reassigned.
Absolutely. This judge is being an ass.
Because he asked them the other day and they refused to answer.
The issue of whether someone is in contempt is certainly pending.
Here's the other problem for Dems and so-called rule of law trolls. The Biden Administration was perfectly happy taking liberties with statutory language--e.g, the Douglass Mackey case. Whatever one thinks of him, let's just say that the prosecution was "a stretch." And speaking of that--why isn't Boasberg actually dealing with the caselaw cited by DOJ when it comes to oral orders. That's fundamentally lawless.
And everyone, where was the due process for Laken Riley?
Hey, look, moron has found another moronic talking point on Twitter!
Aww, aren't you cute. The issue, of course, is not that Laken Riley was entitled to due process, but the politics of all this.
Your precious Judge Boasberg is going to cave on the you violated my order stuff. Ha ha ha ha. You can already see it. Ha ha ha.
Getting punked by Trump. Gotta love it.
The issue, of course, is that you thought you were being clever by using words you didn't understand.
Yeah, right dude. I've been talking about the politics of this whole thing. Trump could have easily given the judge some face-saving way to be pissed, but not really do anything: "Well, gee judge, we called around, and we just couldn't get a hold of people, and once they were outside the US, then you yourself said that there wasn't much you can do. We did not put the five guys on the plane." Nope--Trump admin chose the "in your face approach."
You're a lot less smart than you think you are.
I doubt David thinks he's smart. He's smart enough to know better.
Um, I've been making that point repeatedly, both about this and about much of the other Trump/Musk stuff that's been happening over the last two months. Trump (or, rather, his handlers, since Trump doesn't know anything about anything) wants these confrontations, because he doesn't really care about these agencies, or these aliens, or these people he's firing. He just wants to get to be treated like a third world strongman like those he admires. If he went to Congress and got them to authorize him to fire people or shut down agencies — which the GOP Congress absolutely would because they'd say, "Thank you sir may I have another" if he raped their daughters — that would reflect the idea that he needs authorization.
You didn't make the point i was making, namely that the DOJ could have taken a position in this case that isn't so challenging. Instead, they chose to make this fight more escalated than it could have been.
Personally, i would have chosen the less-escalatory approach while simultaneously pillorying this arrogant judge. I'd mention the idea that a hearing equals a super temporary injunction, the idea that he picked himself and the idea that he went right to class action. I'd make those points publicly. I'd also point out that caselaw is pretty fucking clear that oral orders that operate as injunctions can be treated as a brutum fulmen. In other words, I'd make the case that this guy is a lawless, thumb on the scale judge.
That's literally the point I was making.
Nowhere, unless I missed it, are you saying that the Trump admin could have had the flights taking off but also allow face-saving for the judge.
Well, I wouldn't put it that way since the judge does not require any face saving, but Trump could have accomplished the same goal of removing these people — I mean, assuming that these people are who he claims they are! — without running afoul of the courts.
Guys, here's what the MAGA people are saying:
https://redstate.com/eric-neff/2025/03/19/the-politics-of-john-roberts-n2186829
I don't necessarily agree with this take, but it's worth a read.
It looks like I wasn't the only one reminded of Liversidge today:
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2025/03/comparative-reflections-on-mahmoud.html